Hi,
I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
got two square heads within each other.
Does someone here can point me out either to the magazine I saw it in
or better to their website (if they have one).
Thanks in advance for any help.
Greg D.
>
> There's an ad in Woodworker's Journal for "Lox" .
> try:
> www.lox.com
>
> I think it's all part of a conspiracy to sell more screwdrivers. <BG>
>
> Max
Heh... did you try the 'virtual test?' I want to know what kind of
virtual wood they used.. I have never seen any wood that a #8 Robertson
couldn't drive into! :)
Drew Read
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:21:02 -0500, Greg D. <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I don't suppose you saw the ones used some years ago on US built
> mobile homes. Looks like a 'butterfly' shape called Kluthe or clutch?
>
> Pete
These were common on 50's Chevy trucks, the screws that held on the door
handles were clutch head, I think some of the other screws on these pickups
had the clutch head also.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
Leon wrote:
> "New Wave Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >>
> >> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive reject=
s=2E
> >> They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second
> >> stamp.
> >
> > They are actually Canadian made by a GRK with a "torx" drive head
> > (http://www.grkfasteners.com/). We've been using them for years since
> > discovering them at the Homebuilders show back in the late 90s. In
> > Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've b=
een
> > able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no problem
> > getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware centers.
>
> Nope that is a torx screw the double suare dirive is a Lox drive, Look
> here, www.lox.com
>
> The torx has been around GM since the mid 70's.
Personally, I hope lots of these are sold and used in the next year or
two in all kinds of applications. Then I want to be around a few years
from now when there are no drivers left that fit these things and
countless handymen, builders, homeowners, etc. are doing repairs or
renovations and mightily cursing the "*&%X*+X=A3 ignorant thoughtless
bastards" who used them to begin with. I love progress!
FoggyTown
"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3%[email protected]...
> It's not that new... I got a few boxes of those things
> with the "Deck Master" kit I bought back in 2001.
>
> They require a special and very hard to find bit...
>
> For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
> design.
The why is easy. Phillips screws require a lot more inward pressure to
prevent cam out and the Robertson screw square head tends to snap off bits.
The screws were designed to keep the production level up. If the ability to
do the job is as good as they claim, then the market will dictate that the
design survives.
The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast one
scraps Phillips bits.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
Roger Shoaf wrote:
> "Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote
>>For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
>>design.
>
>
> ...and the Robertson screw square head tends to snap off bits.
Really? I've never snapped off a Robertson bit or screw head, and I've
driven screws that took both hands to resist the torque of the power driver.
I can only imagine that you were either screwing into something really
hard with an impact driver (in which case it should be pre-drilled), or
else the bit had a manufacturing flaw.
Chris
It's not that new... I got a few boxes of those things
with the "Deck Master" kit I bought back in 2001.
They require a special and very hard to find bit...
For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
design.
Greg D. wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
> got two square heads within each other.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Greg D." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
>> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
>> got two square heads within each other.
>>
>
> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive rejects.
> They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second
> stamp. ;~)
>
Peachy. Once they're galvanized, you'll have _two_ recesses the square
drive won't fit.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:05:12 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast
>>>one
>>>scraps Phillips bits.
>>
>> It's not cheap if you have to drive to the next town and dig around in
>> the back room of the hardware store to find one. Though I will agree
>> that Phillips is a sort of crappy screw head.
>
> I much prefer a torx--you can get the drivers at Sears or Home Depot or
> any auto parts store, and Lox doesn't look to be any kind of major
> improvement over it. Sure, that business about locking onto the bit
> sounds good, but a decent magnetic driver handles that with just about any
> screw except solid brass, bronze, or some types of stainless.
Actually if you buy quality screws a square drive bit and screw lock
together with out the need of a magnet driver. I very often have to "Yank"
on the drill to get the bit and screw to part. This is not to say that Torx
is any better or worse but that if the Lox holds the bit better than a good
square drive screw it may be more of a nuisance to use.
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:21:02 -0500, Greg D. <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
>on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
>got two square heads within each other.
>
I don't suppose you saw the ones used some years ago on US built
mobile homes. Looks like a 'butterfly' shape called Kluthe or clutch?
Pete
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive
> rejects. They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the
> second stamp.
They are actually Canadian made by a GRK with a "torx" drive head
(http://www.grkfasteners.com/). We've been using them for years since
discovering them at the Homebuilders show back in the late 90s. In
Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've
been able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no
problem getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware
centers.
They are an extremely tough (hardened) screw with good corrosion
resistance. I can count on one hand the number of heads I have snapped
over the last eight or nine years. We hang a lot of cabinets with them
but like them especially when there are framing members to add and no
room for a nailer.
And, I do believe McFeeley's has started carrying them. Locally
they run around $6/lb +/- .
--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston
"Greg D." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
> got two square heads within each other.
>
> Does someone here can point me out either to the magazine I saw it in
> or better to their website (if they have one).
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> Greg D.
I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive rejects.
They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second stamp.
;~)
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:21:02 -0500, Greg D. <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
>on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
>got two square heads within each other.
>
>Does someone here can point me out either to the magazine I saw it in
>or better to their website (if they have one).
mcfeelys.com might be a useful starting place.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Roger Shoaf wrote:
>> "Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
>>>design.
>>
>>
>> ...and the Robertson screw square head tends to snap off bits.
>
> Really? I've never snapped off a Robertson bit or screw head, and I've
> driven screws that took both hands to resist the torque of the power
> driver.
>
> I can only imagine that you were either screwing into something really
> hard with an impact driver (in which case it should be pre-drilled), or
> else the bit had a manufacturing flaw.
Actually proper use of an impact drive is actually easier on the head of a
screw. Trying to drive a screw farther than it should be driven with an
impact driver can cause a break as with any type driver.
3 weeks ago I built an entire deck cover using the less than ideal common
Deck Screws and used an impact driver to drive the majority of that 5 lb.
box of those 3" screws I broke no screws but did break 2 bit drivers
because of an improper union of the screw and bit. This happened on the
same screw.
I have broken several square head screws with a 9.6 volt drill usually
because the screw was too small for the application or the wood was too hard
for the size screw.
In article <[email protected]>,
Max <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>There's an ad in Woodworker's Journal for "Lox" .
>try:
>www.lox.com
>
So where's the ad for bagels?
--
Contentment makes poor men rich. Discontent makes rich men poor.
--Benjamin Franklin
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "New Wave Dave" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: New screw head type
>
> > They are actually Canadian made by a GRK with a "torx" drive head
> > (http://www.grkfasteners.com/).> --
This is a better link:
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm
> "New Wave" Dave In Houston
"New Wave Dave" wrote in message
> Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've
> been able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no
> problem getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware
> centers.
I saw them at Circle Saw a couple of weeks back, two days after I needed
them and used something else. You are talking about the ones they sell in
the brown paper bags?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
"New Wave Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive rejects.
>> They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second
>> stamp.
>
> They are actually Canadian made by a GRK with a "torx" drive head
> (http://www.grkfasteners.com/). We've been using them for years since
> discovering them at the Homebuilders show back in the late 90s. In
> Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've been
> able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no problem
> getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware centers.
Nope that is a torx screw the double suare dirive is a Lox drive, Look
here, www.lox.com
The torx has been around GM since the mid 70's.
"Greg D." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
> got two square heads within each other.
>
> Does someone here can point me out either to the magazine I saw it in
> or better to their website (if they have one).
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> Greg D.
There's an ad in Woodworker's Journal for "Lox" .
try:
www.lox.com
I think it's all part of a conspiracy to sell more screwdrivers. <BG>
Max
"New Wave Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive rejects.
>> They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second
>> stamp.
>
> They are actually Canadian made by a GRK with a "torx" drive head
> (http://www.grkfasteners.com/). We've been using them for years since
> discovering them at the Homebuilders show back in the late 90s. In
> Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've been
> able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no problem
> getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware centers.
> They are an extremely tough (hardened) screw with good corrosion
> resistance. I can count on one hand the number of heads I have snapped
> over the last eight or nine years. We hang a lot of cabinets with them
> but like them especially when there are framing members to add and no room
> for a nailer.
> And, I do believe McFeeley's has started carrying them. Locally they
> run around $6/lb +/- .
>
> --
> "New Wave" Dave In Houston
The LOX head is slightly different from the TORX. Check this:
http://www.lox.com/Lox_v_Phillips.asp
Max
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Yes, I know this. Torx does not lock together reliably. Hence the
> magnetic driver. I tried square drive. If I had not used Torx first I
> might have liked square drive, but using "good" drivers and "good" screws
> (I'm assuming that what McFeelys sells is "good") I found that I was
> getting results only marginally better than Phillips.
YES, McFeeleys sells good screws. Don't mistake their screws for what you
find in the Borg or misfitting Deck Screws. Typically you can plug the
screw on to the bit and the swing the drill around, up, down, backwards,
forward, in, out, and the screw stays put. Very handy in tight situations
or when you have to stretch to reach something and you can only use one hand
to start and drive the screw. Then after driving the screw you typically
have to give the drill a yank or wiggle to part he screw and bit. Removing
square drive screws can be a bit of a problem at times. The screw is stuck
on the bit and hotter than a fire cracker after removing it. Sometimes
tapping the side of the screw is not enough to get it to drop off of the
bit.
I used the Torx screws in the automotive business and that screw really
improved the replacement of sealed beams not to mention all the other parts.
With the sealed beams being spring loaded the old Philips head screws
holding the retaining ring were a PIA to remove.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "New Wave Dave" wrote in message
>
>> Houston, Circle Jerk errr, Circle Saw is the only retail source we've
>> been able to find for them though, ironically enough, I've had no
>> problem getting them at small town "Do-It-Best" Lumber and Hardware
>> centers.
>
> I saw them at Circle Saw a couple of weeks back, two days after I
> needed
> them and used something else. You are talking about the ones they sell
> in
> the brown paper bags?
I am indeed; one and the same. And, they are split-point,
self-drilling with nibs under the heads for countersinking. Most take a
No. 20 torx driver though a couple of the smaller sizes require a No.15.
The Kennedy, Texas "Do-It-Best" [I sometimes frequent I] carries up tp
3-1/4 inch lengths.
"New Wave" Dave In Houston
"Prometheus" wrote in message
> Looks like these Lox ones are even worse- no fudging there and using
> something that is almost as good, you *have* to use the proprietary
> bit.
>
> Even if they're awesome, I think I'll pass- at least until they start
> selling the bits in the bins at the checkout of the hardware store
> with the phillips and squareheads.
Proprietary $ucks for the most part ... and to do it with screw bits, so
that you can only buy the bits with the screws, is so much the "numb nut
corporate mentality" that it hurts.
... "when will they every learn?".
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3%[email protected]...
> It's not that new... I got a few boxes of those things
> with the "Deck Master" kit I bought back in 2001.
>
> They require a special and very hard to find bit...
>
> For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
> design.
To sell special and very hard to find bits of course.
> Greg D. wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
>> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
>> got two square heads within each other.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:05:12 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast
>>one
>>scraps Phillips bits.
>
> It's not cheap if you have to drive to the next town and dig around in
> the back room of the hardware store to find one. Though I will agree
> that Phillips is a sort of crappy screw head.
I much prefer a torx--you can get the drivers at Sears or Home Depot or any
auto parts store, and Lox doesn't look to be any kind of major improvement
over it. Sure, that business about locking onto the bit sounds good, but a
decent magnetic driver handles that with just about any screw except solid
brass, bronze, or some types of stainless.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:05:12 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast
>>>>one
>>>>scraps Phillips bits.
>>>
>>> It's not cheap if you have to drive to the next town and dig around in
>>> the back room of the hardware store to find one. Though I will agree
>>> that Phillips is a sort of crappy screw head.
>>
>> I much prefer a torx--you can get the drivers at Sears or Home Depot or
>> any auto parts store, and Lox doesn't look to be any kind of major
>> improvement over it. Sure, that business about locking onto the bit
>> sounds good, but a decent magnetic driver handles that with just about
>> any screw except solid brass, bronze, or some types of stainless.
>
> Actually if you buy quality screws a square drive bit and screw lock
> together with out the need of a magnet driver.
Yes, I know this. Torx does not lock together reliably. Hence the magnetic
driver. I tried square drive. If I had not used Torx first I might have
liked square drive, but using "good" drivers and "good" screws (I'm assuming
that what McFeelys sells is "good") I found that I was getting results only
marginally better than Phillips.
> I very often have to "Yank" on the drill to get the bit and screw to part.
> This is not to say that Torx is any better or worse but that if the Lox
> holds the bit better than a good square drive screw it may be more of a
> nuisance to use.
>
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Greg D." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I was flipping through a magazine last week and saw an advertisement
>>> on a new type of screws. It's like a Robertson head but actually it's
>>> got two square heads within each other.
>>>
>>
>> I have seen them. I believe that they are regular square drive rejects.
>> They were double stamped and the screw turned slightly on the second
>> stamp. ;~)
>>
> Peachy. Once they're galvanized, you'll have _two_ recesses the square
> drive won't fit.
I wonder if they will offer an undersized driver for the galvanized screws
like McFeeleys does.
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Leon wrote:
Personally, I hope lots of these are sold and used in the next year or
two in all kinds of applications. Then I want to be around a few years
from now when there are no drivers left that fit these things and
countless handymen, builders, homeowners, etc. are doing repairs or
renovations and mightily cursing the "*&%X*+X£ ignorant thoughtless
bastards" who used them to begin with. I love progress!
Oh, well. Not a remodel job goes by that we don't scratch our butts and
wonder why in the hell "some jake-leg carpenter or plumber or tile man
did something the way it was.
Leon is right [again]; that's progress.
--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:24:31 GMT, Pat Barber
<[email protected]> wrote:
>It's not that new... I got a few boxes of those things
>with the "Deck Master" kit I bought back in 2001.
>
>They require a special and very hard to find bit...
>
>For the life of me, I can't imagine the "why" on this
>design.
To make carpenters swear (even more), I'd imagine.
When I put up a deck for my parents this summer, all the deck screws
were combo drives (like a phillips with a square head in the middle.)
They work great- but one bit comes in a 5-lb box. After losing a
couple, I was down to one, and went back to buy some bits- Surprise!
They don't carry them. You have to buy another box of screws to get
the drivers. So, they ended up being funny looking #2 squareheads for
the rest of the project.
Looks like these Lox ones are even worse- no fudging there and using
something that is almost as good, you *have* to use the proprietary
bit.
Even if they're awesome, I think I'll pass- at least until they start
selling the bits in the bins at the checkout of the hardware store
with the phillips and squareheads.
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:09:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:05:12 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast
>>>one
>>>scraps Phillips bits.
>>
>> It's not cheap if you have to drive to the next town and dig around in
>> the back room of the hardware store to find one. Though I will agree
>> that Phillips is a sort of crappy screw head.
>
>I much prefer a torx--you can get the drivers at Sears or Home Depot or any
>auto parts store, and Lox doesn't look to be any kind of major improvement
>over it. Sure, that business about locking onto the bit sounds good, but a
>decent magnetic driver handles that with just about any screw except solid
>brass, bronze, or some types of stainless.
Yeah- torx are good, too.
Must be "hard" wood....
BruceT
"drewread" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> There's an ad in Woodworker's Journal for "Lox" .
>> try:
>> www.lox.com
>>
>> I think it's all part of a conspiracy to sell more screwdrivers. <BG>
>>
>> Max
>
> Heh... did you try the 'virtual test?' I want to know what kind of
> virtual wood they used.. I have never seen any wood that a #8 Robertson
> couldn't drive into! :)
>
> Drew Read
>
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:05:12 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The price of the bits or the drivers is cheaper if you consider how fast one
>scraps Phillips bits.
It's not cheap if you have to drive to the next town and dig around in
the back room of the hardware store to find one. Though I will agree
that Phillips is a sort of crappy screw head.
"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> These were common on 50's Chevy trucks, the screws that held on the door
> handles were clutch head, I think some of the other screws on these
> pickups
> had the clutch head also.
Clutch screws were but not the ones the OP is talking about. The OP is
talking about "lox" head screws.
www.lox.com