[email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
>> tanks....
>
> They have nothing like the loiter time of a B52 and a B52 with a load
> of JDAMs is pretty good a plinking off tanks. ...and from a lot
> safer distance.
I beg to differ - it is not all about loiter time. Though, having said
that, an H model BUFF can certainly hang around a bit and deliver a payload.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
With the A10c upgrade program, the A10's now have the same standoff
capability as newer, high tech jets. They can designate and drop LGB's now
and can handoff targets between aircraft so that a forward air controller
can select targets for the bomb trucks.
Very OT: Eagle Dynamics, the Russian flight sim company which worked on the
a10c simulator for the US government, has released a 'game' version of the
simulator - it's brilliant fun.
On Sun, 22 May 2011 07:21:16 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On May 22, 2:07Â am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2011 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On May 21, 9:40Â pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 21 May 2011 07:08:16 -0700, Zz Yzx <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> >> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>>
>> >> >>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>>
>> >> >What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>>
>> >> >Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
>> >> >3900 rounds per minute.
>>
>> >> >So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
>>
>> >> Right, but bursts are 1/3 of a second at a time. They can take out
>> >> sixty groups of perps or sixty vehicles before returning to base.
>>
>> >If they let go of all the ammo from the cannon in one shot, the
>> >engines can choke on the gasses it produces causing a stall and crash.
>> >That has in fact happened.
>>
>> The output from those gats is absolutely devastating on the other end,
>> too.
>>
>Bing Crosy, Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour never did get to make Road To
>Basra.
Are those 3 still alive? I'm not looking forward to Road To Kabul,
Road To Karachi, Road To Palmyra, or Another Road To Tripoli, either.
--
Doubt 'til thou canst doubt no more...doubt is thought and thought
is life. Systems which end doubt are devices for drugging thought.
-- Albert Guerard
On May 14, 10:46=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On May 14, 9:12=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> >> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> >> I think they're awesome, too. =A0Who cares what they look like? Look a=
t
> >> the armament! =A0What fun, fun toy a GAU-8/A gat would be to play with=
.
> >> Wanna go out plinking cans?
>
> >> She's not supersonic, but 381knots is respectable, with a 300knot
> >> cruise and a 120 stall. =A0Just right for cruising the countryside
> >> or overseeing the banana plantation, right?
>
> >> --
> >> It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
> >> distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Mark Twain
>
> >It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
> >tanks....
>
> Two points if you let the magic smoke out of them.
> Two more if you light the sparklers inside.
>
Five bonus points if the poppety-boom lifts the turret off.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011 05:59:47 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure I did - simply look below at the remainder of my sentence,
>> which you sliced mid-sentence.
>
> No, you really didn't.
>
Ok - I'll conceed that where I thought I had done so, you don't. So I'll
try to advance the notion, but only in as much as I have to guess at what
you're really trying to get at here - since you haven't said. I just don't
believe loitering is the objective - shoot, get the job done and go home for
dinner. No real need to loiter.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 21 May 2011 07:08:16 -0700, Zz Yzx <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>>
>>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
>What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>
>Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
>3900 rounds per minute.
>
>So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
Right, but bursts are 1/3 of a second at a time. They can take out
sixty groups of perps or sixty vehicles before returning to base.
--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
On May 22, 2:07=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2011 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On May 21, 9:40=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2011 07:08:16 -0700, Zz Yzx <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> >> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> >> >>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> >> >What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>
> >> >Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires a=
t
> >> >3900 rounds per minute.
>
> >> >So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
>
> >> Right, but bursts are 1/3 of a second at a time. They can take out
> >> sixty groups of perps or sixty vehicles before returning to base.
>
> >If they let go of all the ammo from the cannon in one shot, the
> >engines can choke on the gasses it produces causing a stall and crash.
> >That has in fact happened.
>
> The output from those gats is absolutely devastating on the other end,
> too.
>
Bing Crosy, Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour never did get to make Road To
Basra.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2011 01:16:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time.
>>>> Plinking tanks....
>>>
>>> They have nothing like the loiter time of a B52 and a B52 with a
>>> load of JDAMs is pretty good a plinking off tanks. ...and from a
>>> lot safer distance.
>>
>> I beg to differ
>
> About what (you didn't say)?
Sure I did - simply look below at the remainder of my sentence, which you
sliced mid-sentence.
>
>> - it is not all about loiter time. Though, having said
>> that, an H model BUFF can certainly hang around a bit and deliver a
>> payload.
>
> Since 'H's are all that's left...
Yeah, but some of us remember when the H was a big thing...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 May 2011 05:59:47 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2011 01:16:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time.
>>>>> Plinking tanks....
>>>>
>>>> They have nothing like the loiter time of a B52 and a B52 with a
>>>> load of JDAMs is pretty good a plinking off tanks. ...and from a
>>>> lot safer distance.
>>>
>>> I beg to differ
>>
>> About what (you didn't say)?
>
>Sure I did - simply look below at the remainder of my sentence, which you
>sliced mid-sentence.
No, you really didn't.
>>> - it is not all about loiter time. Though, having said
>>> that, an H model BUFF can certainly hang around a bit and deliver a
>>> payload.
>>
>> Since 'H's are all that's left...
>
>Yeah, but some of us remember when the H was a big thing...
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a24b3d8a-cd5c-4095-b290-b91332c80ea4@e21g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
Hey Rob, Leave those shop tools alone until you grow up.. Grin. On that
aircraft I wonder where the fuel is stored? Big engines, small plane. Is it
spring yet up your way? WW
In article <[email protected]>, willshak@
00hvc.rr.com says...
>
> Robatoy wrote the following:
> > I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
> >
> > http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
> >
>
> Not prettier, but ugly enough to be feared.
>
> Replacement
> The A-10 is scheduled to be in service with the USAF until 2028 and
> possibly later, when it may be replaced by the F-35 Lightning II. ^
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II#cite_note-fighter_force-24>
> Critics have responded by saying that replacing the A-10 with the F-35
> would be a "giant leap backwards" given the performance of the Warthog
> and the rising costs of the F-35 program.
> I agree.^
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II#cite_note-jsfa030611-86>
F-35 is a different kind of airplane. It won't replace the A-10 any
more than the B-2 has replaced the B-52.
I suspect that the argument is that smart bombs render low and low
obsolete.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "WW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:a24b3d8a-cd5c-4095-b290-b91332c80ea4@e21g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> > >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
> > >
> > > http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
> >
> > Hey Rob, Leave those shop tools alone until you grow up.. Grin. On that
> > aircraft I wonder where the fuel is stored? Big engines, small plane. Is it
> > spring yet up your way? WW
> >
> >
> According to a buddy the 4 tanks are in the fuselage between
> the cockpit and the engines. There's better protection there
> from enemy fire.
The engines are large diameter because they're high-bypass turbofans
intended for fuel efficiency at the low speeds at which the A-10 flies,
not because they produce a huge amount of power.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
> >
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>
> Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
> 3900 rounds per minute.
>
> So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
It's an airplane designed to shoot at ground targets. It doesn't sit
there in a fixed position hammering away, it makes a pass, fires a burst
when the target is in the sights, turns around, comes back, fires
another burst. That's enough ammunition for 10-20 passes at the target.
Also remember that the gun is not the only armament. There are 11 hard
points for up to 16,000 pounds of other ordnance. By the time all
that's expended the pilot's had a long day in the saddle.
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:a24b3d8a-cd5c-4095-b290-
[email protected]:
> I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
Do you want them to give you the ammunition that usually goes with it too?
And what will you be doing then?
Hou het leuk hoor!!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Sun, 15 May 2011 01:16:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
>>> tanks....
>>
>> They have nothing like the loiter time of a B52 and a B52 with a load
>> of JDAMs is pretty good a plinking off tanks. ...and from a lot
>> safer distance.
>
>I beg to differ
About what (you didn't say)?
> - it is not all about loiter time. Though, having said
>that, an H model BUFF can certainly hang around a bit and deliver a payload.
Since 'H's are all that's left...
On May 21, 9:40=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2011 07:08:16 -0700, Zz Yzx <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> >>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> >What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>
> >Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
> >3900 rounds per minute.
>
> >So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
>
> Right, but bursts are 1/3 of a second at a time. They can take out
> sixty groups of perps or sixty vehicles before returning to base.
>
If they let go of all the ammo from the cannon in one shot, the
engines can choke on the gasses it produces causing a stall and crash.
That has in fact happened.
[email protected] wrote:
>
> I thought you were trying to make a broader statement. I wasn't the
> one who brought up loitering, but there clearly is a need to loiter
> when doing close air support. You need to be there when called.
> BUFFs with JDAMs did that job very well. A10s are sitting ducks. No
> need anymore.
Close air support? Heck - BUFFs aren't close air support... Close air
suppot is F4's with Napalm hung under the wings!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
3900 rounds per minute.
So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
-Zz
On May 14, 9:12=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> I think they're awesome, too. =A0Who cares what they look like? Look at
> the armament! =A0What fun, fun toy a GAU-8/A gat would be to play with.
> Wanna go out plinking cans?
>
> She's not supersonic, but 381knots is respectable, with a 300knot
> cruise and a 120 stall. =A0Just right for cruising the countryside
> or overseeing the banana plantation, right?
>
> --
> It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
> distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Mark Twain
It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
tanks....
On Tue, 17 May 2011 01:30:12 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2011 05:59:47 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> Sure I did - simply look below at the remainder of my sentence,
>>> which you sliced mid-sentence.
>>
>> No, you really didn't.
>>
>
>Ok - I'll conceed that where I thought I had done so, you don't. So I'll
>try to advance the notion, but only in as much as I have to guess at what
>you're really trying to get at here - since you haven't said. I just don't
>believe loitering is the objective - shoot, get the job done and go home for
>dinner. No real need to loiter.
I thought you were trying to make a broader statement. I wasn't the one who
brought up loitering, but there clearly is a need to loiter when doing close
air support. You need to be there when called. BUFFs with JDAMs did that job
very well. A10s are sitting ducks. No need anymore.
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
This is one of the most impressive, up close.
http://www2.interceptor.com/~thumper/xb2/in-flight.jpg
"WW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:a24b3d8a-cd5c-4095-b290-b91332c80ea4@e21g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
> >
> > http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
> Hey Rob, Leave those shop tools alone until you grow up.. Grin. On that
> aircraft I wonder where the fuel is stored? Big engines, small plane. Is it
> spring yet up your way? WW
>
>
According to a buddy the 4 tanks are in the fuselage between
the cockpit and the engines. There's better protection there
from enemy fire.
Art
Robatoy wrote the following:
> I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>
Not prettier, but ugly enough to be feared.
Replacement
The A-10 is scheduled to be in service with the USAF until 2028 and
possibly later, when it may be replaced by the F-35 Lightning II. ^
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II#cite_note-fighter_force-24>
Critics have responded by saying that replacing the A-10 with the F-35
would be a "giant leap backwards" given the performance of the Warthog
and the rising costs of the F-35 program.
I agree.^
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II#cite_note-jsfa030611-86>
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
I think they're awesome, too. Who cares what they look like? Look at
the armament! What fun, fun toy a GAU-8/A gat would be to play with.
Wanna go out plinking cans?
She's not supersonic, but 381knots is respectable, with a 300knot
cruise and a 120 stall. Just right for cruising the countryside
or overseeing the banana plantation, right?
--
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
-- Mark Twain
On Wed, 18 May 2011 01:24:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> I thought you were trying to make a broader statement. I wasn't the
>> one who brought up loitering, but there clearly is a need to loiter
>> when doing close air support. You need to be there when called.
>> BUFFs with JDAMs did that job very well. A10s are sitting ducks. No
>> need anymore.
>
>Close air support? Heck - BUFFs aren't close air support... Close air
>suppot is F4's with Napalm hung under the wings!
They certainly are, when loaded with a pile of JDAMs.
On Sat, 21 May 2011 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On May 21, 9:40Â pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2011 07:08:16 -0700, Zz Yzx <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>>
>> >>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>>
>> >What I'm not getting is the canon firing rate and ammunition stores.
>>
>> >Wikipedia says the drum holds 1174 rounds, and that the canon fires at
>> >3900 rounds per minute.
>>
>> >So that's ~20 secs of firing, then back to hte base for more bullets?
>>
>> Right, but bursts are 1/3 of a second at a time. They can take out
>> sixty groups of perps or sixty vehicles before returning to base.
>>
>
>If they let go of all the ammo from the cannon in one shot, the
>engines can choke on the gasses it produces causing a stall and crash.
>That has in fact happened.
The output from those gats is absolutely devastating on the other end,
too.
--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On May 14, 9:12 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>>
>> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>>
>> I think they're awesome, too. Who cares what they look like? Look at
>> the armament! What fun, fun toy a GAU-8/A gat would be to play with.
>> Wanna go out plinking cans?
>>
>> She's not supersonic, but 381knots is respectable, with a 300knot
>> cruise and a 120 stall. Just right for cruising the countryside
>> or overseeing the banana plantation, right?
>>
>> --
>> It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
>> distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
>> -- Mark Twain
>
>It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
>tanks....
They have nothing like the loiter time of a B52 and a B52 with a load of JDAMs
is pretty good a plinking off tanks. ...and from a lot safer distance.
On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On May 14, 9:12Â pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >I just love these things. When I grow up, I want one.
>>
>> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/A10.jpg
>>
>> I think they're awesome, too. Â Who cares what they look like? Look at
>> the armament! Â What fun, fun toy a GAU-8/A gat would be to play with.
>> Wanna go out plinking cans?
>>
>> She's not supersonic, but 381knots is respectable, with a 300knot
>> cruise and a 120 stall. Â Just right for cruising the countryside
>> or overseeing the banana plantation, right?
>>
>> --
>> It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
>> distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â -- Mark Twain
>
>It is all about armament and armour....... and loiter time. Plinking
>tanks....
Two points if you let the magic smoke out of them.
Two more if you light the sparklers inside.
--
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
-- Mark Twain