Heating a wood shop

Dave Rathnow asks:

>
>With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
>so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
>kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
>dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
>Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
>flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
>Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
>with a 12 foot ceiling.
>

Open flame can be worked with...I've got a good friend who has been heating his
shop with wood for over a decade. It requires specific care with finishing in
the winter, but otherwise is fine. I know a local pro who heats with wood, too,
but the stove is isolated, in the basement, and not a problem with fumes and
dust.

I've used propane catalytic heaters for mine. They work well, but are expensive
as all get out...tendency to burn a full 20# tank of propane per day in cold
weather is not good. The cost of the stuff is way up...last time I used it, I
paid $9 and that was 3 or 4 years ago.

Currently, I've got an electric furnace almost hooked up. IF you have the wire
capacity, it's a good way to go. Mine's in the shop "attic." I'm lazing my way
into hooking up the 60 amp breaker one day soon...when it drops under 80,
probably. Cost? Zip. Got it when it was removed from a house for a new type of
furnace. Check with local HVAC people. Other sources: mobile home supply
houses. They often have small, surplus electric furnaces.

While I use kerosene to clean some tools, I do not like the stench, and have
been through the kero heating mill. No more. Stinks. Requires care both because
of the open flame and the fact that output heat losses are high if you don't
keep the heater extra clean.

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L. Mencken

I have a 26x40 shop that I heat with a propane 70,000 btu furnace.
It's made by Modine and it's called a Hot Dawg. It hangs on the
ceiling and vents out the wall. I bought it on the internet through
QC Supply for around $600 delivered. I did bring in a 320 lb propane
tank that's only used for this furnace, then it's easier to gauge how
much I'm using. Last winter (in northern WI) I used about $300 worth
of propane. When I'm not using the shop I keep it set around 45 and
it takes only a few minutes to heat up to 65.

Dave,

An open flame heater is not dangerous as long as you respect the
fact that whatever you are doing in the garage may have the potential
to put that garage into orbit ;-)

Basically what I am saying is just use your head when you have an
open flame. You can rip, cut, saw and plane all you like as long as
you keep the sawdust piles cleaned up and not near your heater. I
have never heard of sawdust in the air exploding like gasoline fumes.

Don't have a messy shop with piles of sawdust all over the place.
Get youself a couple of STEEL garbage can's and when you clean up your
sawdust keep it outside in those can's. The reason for the steel
can's is that if you ever happen to get smouldering embers in the
sawdust, it won't melt the can if it does start on fire. And make
sure you keep it outside, if anything does go wrong and you have a
fire, it's not inside your garage. Same goes for shop rags etc. that
you may use for refinishing. Put them in a steel container when
finished with them and don't keep em inside your shop. Spontaneous
combustion is well known to happen to solvent soaked rags, you don't
even need an open flame for them to go up !

Now as for what I heat my shop with.... well I have used 4 different
types of heat. In my old shop I used one of those propane
construction heaters, and like Charlie says, they are hard on
propane.... until I discovered one thing. Put a fan behind the
heater. It was amazing how low I could turn the flame on the heater
once I put a fan behind it. Only thing I then had to worry about was
to keep a door cracked to make sure the shop got adequate oxygen. I
didn't need to kill myself from carbon monoxide poisoning. The other
problem I found was that the shop smelled of burned propane then, it
wasn't bad, but not pleasant either.

Once I moved to my new place I got myself a little bigger shop. Now
I have one about the same size as you, 22'x 22'. I used the propane
heater for a while and it worked great, but then I decided to give a
buddy's kerosene heater a try. It worked fine, but I hate the smell
of burned kerosene so I didn't use that very long.

Then my father built himself a new house, and I inherited his old
wood stove. I installed that, and it worked wonderfully except for
one thing. When I wanted to paint something I had to go back to the
propane heater only. I didn't want to run the risk of having the
woodstove cause an explosion. I couldn't just turn the woodstove off
and on easily like the propane heater. Even when you think there's no
embers in the woodstove, you don't need to take that chance.

I worked like that for a couple of years. Using the propane heater
when painting so I could turn it off to paint, then back on after I
got the shop cleared of paint fumes etc. ( And I do mean WELL cleared
of FUMES )

Two years ago I had an HVAC buddy give me a natural gas furnace out
of someone's house. I installed that ( in a room outside of the
garage walls ) so the furnace was isolated from the shop and all paint
fumes etc. So now I use the furnace in conjunction with the
woodstove. But I still make sure the furnace is off when painting, I
respect the fact that I can't outrun and explosion like they do in
movies ;-)

The furnace is used mainly to keep the garage at a constant temp. or
if I am just going out there for a couple of hours. The woodstove is
used when I am going to be out in the garage for a while and to save
me from really high natural gas bills ;-) Plus it gives me a place to
make my mistakes disappear.

Hope this helps.... just make sure whatever you use to heat with
that you work safely around it. You only have one shot to get it
right, mistakes with flames can be deadly.

Todd

PS: If you install a wood stove make sure your insurance company
knows about it, otherwise if you have a fire they WILL NOT cover your
losses. Plus they will insist on having it inspected, which makes
sure that you installed it properly.... good for your peace of mind
too.



"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84>...
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

I have a 30 x 40 shop in the Seattle area. It has a high ceiling, 14
ft in parts. I opted for a pellet stove since the cost of putting in
a tall chimmney made a wood stove more expensive. I have been very
satisfied with the pellet stove. It is totally enclosed with a fan for
circulating the heat in the shop and another fan for running the
combustion and exhaust. The exhaust is just through the wall. I also
have a ceiling fan to help get the heat out of the tall ceiling area.

The heater Frank mentiioned with the link to Lee Valley is the one I
mentioned in a earlier post that I have over my bench. It puts out a lot of
heat.

--
Mike S.
[email protected]
http://members.tripod.com/n0yii/woodworking.htm
"Frank" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lee Valley offers an interesting Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=44590&category=1,43456,43465

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84>...
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

I've used a combination wood/coal stove for years. Wood in the early
fall and late spring to warm things up then the heat of the day is
sufficient to keep the temp comfortable. Coal in the cold season on
Cape Cod...it's cheap, easy to use not having to feed it often. At
10pm, I feed it and its good until 8am the next morning. Shop temp
about 70F. Never a problem with dust although I keep a clean shop.

Same as here. "The city dump" is off limits to anyone that doesn't work
there. We have "transfer stations". Open top semis that you approach from
the top via a platform and throw your stuff into. Not much of a way to
salvage anything. If you do manage to salvage something, you will be
arrested for doing so.

"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phil,
> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping' at
> the city dump.
>
> WHERE !!??
>
> Around here you'd think the stuff was either gold or nuclear waste . . .
the
> way it's either locked away or trucked a hundred miles away. If you don't
> get it out of your neighbors trash before the Thursday morning pick-up . .
.
> it's GONE !!
>
> Regards,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
> {That's how I got the doors that make up my heavy *big* workbench, and
what
> I throw across sawhorses for 'instant' ones !!}
>

"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I'm not sure if I understand the question completely. When you say open
> flame are you referring to the various heaters with an actual flame
> that's exposed only, or are you referring to woodstoves also?
>
> I don't see a problem with woodstoves--we've used one for my whole life,
> my father's entire life, my grandfather's entire life, his father's
> entire life..do I need to go on?
>
> Plus you've got a great place to dispose of cutoffs and sawdust. :)

The potential is from the fumes of finishes. Even a store that is supposed
to be "out" can still have glowing embers a day or two later. It is against
the National Fire Code to use solid fuel heaters in garages due to the
potential of having gas fumes from an automobile. With proper care, it
should be safe as any other heater.

I use an open flame propane heater, but I don't spray finishes while it is
still running.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Dave Rathnow wrote:

> I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, where winter temps can get
> down to -30C. Average temps, though, are usually about -15C
> but we have these things called Chinooks that will causes
> temps to go from -20C to +5C in a couple of hours.
>
> Where can I find more information on the solor heating panels
> you are using?

Oops! I got this in the mail, too; and have already answered.
Check your mailbox...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

I have had two shops and have heated both with small direct vent gas
furnaces. There is no open flame so there's no risk of an explosion. The
furnace draws and exhausts air directly to and from the outside and the air
is heated in an enclosed chamber.

They're hassle-free and you have the benefit of a thermostat. I turn it down
to 50 when I'm not using it and up to 65 when I'm in the shop so the shop is
heated to some degree all winter which I like. Only takes about 15 minutes
to bring it up to working temp. My current shop is 22 x 26 and well
insulated and doesn't take much to heat. Cost for the furnace was about $700
and they are easy to install yourself. You just need a gas line to tap into
and an outside wall.

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.
>
>

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...

> What type of heating do you use? Any recommendations to heat
> my shop: it's about 20x20 with a 12 foot ceiling.

Solar (unshielded remote fusion reactor). I have a 50x50x14 shop
and plan to heat it with three 6x12 panels this winter. Last
winter I used a single 6x12 panel to keep shop temperature above
freezing; and estimate that three will provide a comfortable
daytime working environment (most days).

I don't know about your locale; but a shop the size of yours here
could probably be kept decently warm with a pair of south-facing
6x8 solar panels. The advantage, of course, is that there isn't
any fuel requirement.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

Phil,
I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping' at
the city dump.

WHERE !!??

Around here you'd think the stuff was either gold or nuclear waste . . . the
way it's either locked away or trucked a hundred miles away. If you don't
get it out of your neighbors trash before the Thursday morning pick-up . . .
it's GONE !!

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{That's how I got the doors that make up my heavy *big* workbench, and what
I throw across sawhorses for 'instant' ones !!}
"Phil Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > Phil,
> > Don't have room for {and can't AFFORD} one of those 'traditional' pot
> > belly's. So I have a cheap 'knock off' of the 'Swedish style'. Ditto on
what
> > I feed it . . . along with chunks from a tree I had to take down years
ago.
> Ron,
> Got mine from a scrap yard. Cost me R250 (about $35)Now that spring is
> here it has been cleaned and painted all ready for next winter.
> Cheers
>
> --
>
> Phillip Hansen
> Skil-Phil Solutions
>

patriarch < wrote:

> Just a note: I refilled two gas grill bottles Monday at $2.19/unit, 7.7
> units. (I don't recall if it was gallons or pounds.) About $18 & change.
> In California. At ACE Hardware.
>
> Patriarch

I just bought 2 new 5gal containers last night at Sam's Club ($19ea) as
they refused to fill my old ones, too old - gotta make a buck in the
market again<sigh>. Then took the new ones to a Chevron station nearby
to fill them, $2.13/gal, plus tax, almost $23 for both. Sure glad I
don't own one of the old smelly super inefficient always freezes up in
the winter propane vehicles.

As for a shop heater, my son had one that screwed onto a propane bottle.
The screen mechanism on the unit broke and the flame was uneven and
popped all the time. Unsafe so we scrapped the entire unit. I'm
uncomfortable myself with an open flame of that type in a small wood
shop, plus the carbon monoxide etc so I use an electric radiant heater
mounted to the ceiling joists.

Grandpa John

Phil,
Don't have room for {and can't AFFORD} one of those 'traditional' pot
belly's. So I have a cheap 'knock off' of the 'Swedish style'. Ditto on what
I feed it . . . along with chunks from a tree I had to take down years ago.

Actually, a bit better than a portable Kerosene heater. While the Kero
heater puts out 120,000 BTu, one of the by products is a slight amount of
water vapor. Not the best for the tools or the curing epoxy.

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Phil Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote > <snip>
> I got an old slow combustion stove (think you call them a pot belly).
> Been in the shop for 2 years. Feed it with all the scraps and it keeps
> the shop warm (5m x 10m)
> --
>
> Phillip Hansen
> Skil-Phil Solutions
>

All finishing work is done in my basement. I only do woodwork in my shop
so the only thing that is potentially explosive is the gasoline for my lawn
mower,
but that will likely be coming out when I build my shed (hopefully before
the snow
flies.)

As I said in another post, I'm in Calgary, Alberta where winter temps
average about
-15C.

Dave.

"patriarch [email protected]>" <<patriarch> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84:
>
> >
> > With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> > so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> > kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> > dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
> >
> > Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> > flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> > Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> > with a 12 foot ceiling.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dave.
>
> I'm less concerned with dust explosions than I am about the various oils,
> solvents and finishes I store and use regularly.
>
> A little more detail about your shop environment, your location and your
> requirements would help us give you all the opinion, misinformation and
> conjecture for which USENET is famous. ;-)
>
> Patriarch

"patriarch writes:
> That was $18 for both bottles. We've got a family doin's this Saturday,
> and I'm supposed to cook for 60. I don't want to run out.
>
> When Swingman posted his spareribs pictures a little while ago, he seems
to
> have started up something again here. I've started reading AFB, and have
> been trying to decide how to augment the gas grill with a slow wood
> burner...

I've posted this one before, but since you have a group of 60 coming, will
post again.

Doubt you can get a typical propane grill low enough for this one, so will
give you the oven recipe:

Lew's Country Ribs

Start with at least 5 lbs of "country ribs" usually cut from the shoulder of
the pig. (These are the fat ones and around here they are $0.99/lb on sale)

Put ribs in a 1 gallon ZipLock bag along with 1-1/2 cups of soy sauce and
3/4 cup brown sugar, mixed before adding to bag.

(Scale up as required).

Marinade ribs for at least 24-36 hours in the fridge turning over every 12
hours.

When complete, place ribs, fat side up on a rack in a pan and place in oven
@ 400F for 20 minutes, then reduce heat to about 212F (halfway between
200F-225F setting on oven) for at least 10 hours.

Save marinade for later.

Remove from oven and allow to rest on cutting board about 20-30 minutes,
then cut 1/2" thick medallions of meat with a good sharp chef's knife.

Any bone or residual fat can be peeled away with your fingers as you are
cutting medallions. You end up with only lean pork pieces.

Place marinade in a sauce pan and slowly bring to a boil over low heat.

(You don't want to caramelize the sugar)

Arrange medallions around the outer rim of a serving platter with cup in
center of plate containing sterilized marinade.

Add tooth picks and for your own safety, get the hell out of the way.

Enjoy.

BTW, I'm doing these for a party this weekend.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

In article <OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84>, [email protected] says...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
<snip>
I got an old slow combustion stove (think you call them a pot belly).
Been in the shop for 2 years. Feed it with all the scraps and it keeps
the shop warm (5m x 10m)
--

Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Phil,
> Don't have room for {and can't AFFORD} one of those 'traditional' pot
> belly's. So I have a cheap 'knock off' of the 'Swedish style'. Ditto on what
> I feed it . . . along with chunks from a tree I had to take down years ago.
Ron,
Got mine from a scrap yard. Cost me R250 (about $35)Now that spring is
here it has been cleaned and painted all ready for next winter.
Cheers

--

Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Phil,
> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping' at
> the city dump.
Ron,
Here a scrap yard is a dealer who buys/collects scrap and resells at a
vast profit.
The local one call himself "Honest George" (oxymoron). There is all
kinds of rubbish there but somtimes you can find a useful item.
Shades of 'Steptoe and Son' and the sitcom you had with Redd Foxx.
Cheers
--

Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Got mine from a scrap yard. Cost me R250 (about $35)Now that spring is
> here it has been cleaned and painted all ready for next winter.
Today it was put back in use. Snowing now and looks like it will be the
heaviest snow since I have been here in 5 years. Well at least I have a
stove and can get the shop warm. <G>
--

Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:40 +0200, Phil Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> >says...
> >> Got mine from a scrap yard. Cost me R250 (about $35)Now that spring is
> >> here it has been cleaned and painted all ready for next winter.
> >Today it was put back in use. Snowing now and looks like it will be the
> >heaviest snow since I have been here in 5 years. Well at least I have a
> >stove and can get the shop warm. <G>
>
> You in Breckenridge? I heard they got 8 inches!!!
>
> JP
> *****************
> I miss the Rockies.
>
No. Rosetta, South Africa
--

Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions

I have been heating a three car garage/shop with a 24K BTU kerosene heater
for years but it demands attention and discipline.

1) Heater is always kept away from work (ie. Heater is usually in bay 1
while work is done in bay 3, some assembly in 2.
2) Heater is cleaned regularly and kept clean.
3) Fuel and flammable materials are kept completely away from heater
4) Any time finishing is done with flammable substances, the heater is
turned off.
5) I keep the shop cleaner during the winter (sawdust, etc) when using the
heater.

I do supplement the kero heater with a small quartz heater that puts out a
surprising amout of heat.

I have a permanent shop building in the plans and I hope to heat it with a
recycled forced air furnace. I have done this before in a shop and it works
well and is fairly economical. My previous installation was raised off of
the shop floor about 1-1/2 feet which put the firebox about 3-4 feet off of
the floor. These used units are available through salvage building material
dealers or heating contractors. I paid $25 for my down-draft unit and just
let it blow out on the floor of my small shop. My cousin did a similar
thing with an updraft unit that he uses to heat a 1,200 sq ft shop. He put
a simple two-directional plenum on top and it does great - think he paid
about $100 for his. He used a similar lift to get the machine up off of his
floor.


"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.
>
>

Dave:
I forgot to mention one VERY important thing. I don't care how good of a
buddy your insurance agent might be - DON'T LET HIM/HER KNOW!!

Woodworkers have been moving toward the lower reaches of the insurance
company client appreciation scale. Don't need to provide powder. They tend
to react negatively to a lot of things they don't understand.



"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Oi4Xc.2287$gl.1937@okepread07...
> I have been heating a three car garage/shop with a 24K BTU kerosene heater
> for years but it demands attention and discipline.
>
> 1) Heater is always kept away from work (ie. Heater is usually in bay 1
> while work is done in bay 3, some assembly in 2.
> 2) Heater is cleaned regularly and kept clean.
> 3) Fuel and flammable materials are kept completely away from heater
> 4) Any time finishing is done with flammable substances, the heater is
> turned off.
> 5) I keep the shop cleaner during the winter (sawdust, etc) when using the
> heater.
>
> I do supplement the kero heater with a small quartz heater that puts out a
> surprising amout of heat.
>
> I have a permanent shop building in the plans and I hope to heat it with a
> recycled forced air furnace. I have done this before in a shop and it
works
> well and is fairly economical. My previous installation was raised off of
> the shop floor about 1-1/2 feet which put the firebox about 3-4 feet off
of
> the floor. These used units are available through salvage building
material
> dealers or heating contractors. I paid $25 for my down-draft unit and
just
> let it blow out on the floor of my small shop. My cousin did a similar
> thing with an updraft unit that he uses to heat a 1,200 sq ft shop. He
put
> a simple two-directional plenum on top and it does great - think he paid
> about $100 for his. He used a similar lift to get the machine up off of
his
> floor.

Ron Magen wrote:
> Phil,
> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping' at
> the city dump.
>
> WHERE !!??
>
[snip]
We have a community dump here in the elevated sticks. Part of the dump
is an area known as "Another Man's Treasure". If you have something
that you can't use or want to sell, you can leave it there for someone
else to pick up and restart the chain. Great place for recyclables.

Oh and which reminds me...


There once was a rich man who was near death. He was very sad because he
had worked so hard for his money and he wanted to be able to take it
with him to heaven. So he began to pray that he might be able to take
some of his wealth with him.

An angel hears his plea and says to him... "Sorry, but you can't take
your wealth with you." The man implores the angel to speak to God to see
if He might bend the rules.

The man continues to pray that his wealth could follow him. The angel
reappears and informs the man that God has decided to allow him to take
one suitcase with him. Overjoyed, the man gathers his largest suitcase
and fills it with pure gold bars and places it beside his bed.

Soon afterward the man dies and shows up at the Gates of Heaven to greet
St. Peter. St. Peter seeing the suitcase says, "Hold on, you can't bring
that in here!"

But, the man explains to St. Peter that he has permission and asks him
to verify his story with the Lord. Sure enough, St. Peter checks and
comes back saying, "You're right. You are allowed one carry-on bag, but
I'm supposed to check its contents before letting it through."

St. Peter opens the suitcase to inspect the worldly items that the man
found too precious to leave behind and exclaims - "You brought
pavement?!!!"

"patriarch [email protected]>" <<patriarch> wrote in message
>
> When Swingman posted his spareribs pictures a little while ago, he seems
to
> have started up something again here. I've started reading AFB, and have
> been trying to decide how to augment the gas grill with a slow wood
> burner...
>

I have a few cookers, both gas and wood fired. If you want some of the wood
flavor, you can put some chunks in a tuna fish can, cover it with foil, poke
a few holes and set it close to the burner. For slow cooking though, it is
hard to get the gas grills to burn low enough. Next weekend I'll be making
a brisket and a pastrami (from a cured brisket) and it will smoke for about
12 hours.
Ed

"patriarch [email protected]>"
>
> Just a note: I refilled two gas grill bottles Monday at $2.19/unit, 7.7
> units. (I don't recall if it was gallons or pounds.) About $18 & change.
> In California. At ACE Hardware.

If that is for both, not a bad price. Tonight I filled mine at BJ's for
$7.49. Non member price is $12+

In the course of the winter, I use maybe 4 or 5 bottles.
Ed

Live Texas, on or about Septmeber 16th, 2004, with the shop doors wide open
and two fans going full blast.

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/hot.jpg

... nuff said.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84:

>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

I'm less concerned with dust explosions than I am about the various oils,
solvents and finishes I store and use regularly.

A little more detail about your shop environment, your location and your
requirements would help us give you all the opinion, misinformation and
conjecture for which USENET is famous. ;-)

Patriarch

[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snippage>
> I've used propane catalytic heaters for mine. They work well, but are
> expensive as all get out...tendency to burn a full 20# tank of propane
> per day in cold weather is not good. The cost of the stuff is way
> up...last time I used it, I paid $9 and that was 3 or 4 years ago.
>

Just a note: I refilled two gas grill bottles Monday at $2.19/unit, 7.7
units. (I don't recall if it was gallons or pounds.) About $18 & change.
In California. At ACE Hardware.

Patriarch

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> "patriarch [email protected]>"
>>
>> Just a note: I refilled two gas grill bottles Monday at $2.19/unit,
>> 7.7 units. (I don't recall if it was gallons or pounds.) About $18
>> & change. In California. At ACE Hardware.
>
> If that is for both, not a bad price. Tonight I filled mine at BJ's
> for $7.49. Non member price is $12+
>
> In the course of the winter, I use maybe 4 or 5 bottles.
> Ed
>

I thought you cooked with wood, Ed. ;-)

That was $18 for both bottles. We've got a family doin's this Saturday,
and I'm supposed to cook for 60. I don't want to run out.

When Swingman posted his spareribs pictures a little while ago, he seems to
have started up something again here. I've started reading AFB, and have
been trying to decide how to augment the gas grill with a slow wood
burner...

Too many hobbies...

Patriarch

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


> I've posted this one before, but since you have a group of 60 coming,
> will post again.
>
> Doubt you can get a typical propane grill low enough for this one, so
> will give you the oven recipe:
>
> Lew's Country Ribs
>
<snip of a good looking recipe>

Thanks, Lew. I'll almost certainly use this approach for at least part of
the feast.

Enjoy your get together this weekend!

Patriarch

"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Phil,
> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping'
> at the city dump.
>
> WHERE !!??
>
Uh, Ron, Phil's in South Africa. Things might be a bit different there.

A couple of weeks ago, he indicated that a router insert would take 7-10
WEEKS to arrive.

Necessity can be a mother...

Patriarch

"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> 'Patriarch',
> Know Phil's at a 'far distance' from here - the question was / is
> rhetorical.
>
> There has been several similar references & comments - from U.S.
> posters. The closest thing around here {Philly suburbs}is driving
> around the neighborhoods with a pick-up or small utility trailer on
> trash day {and wouldn't my wife LOVE that !!}. The other option is
> 'dumpster diving' behind K-Mart. Do that behind Home Depot or a
> construction site and the local constabulary will give you a world of
> trouble !!

My eldest son spent a couple of years in the Philly area. Loved the people
and the local food. He told me that it took a California boy a little
while to adjust to the Philly culture, and ways of doing things.

We get no dumpster diving here, either, but that doesn't seem to stop my
brothers-in-law. Me, I have no storage space for what I now own. My wife
is looking forward to me being a net seller at the block garage sale next
month.

I see what a fellow like Lawrence L'Hote (?) does with recycled stuff, and
feel like I waste way too many resources...

Patriarch

I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, where winter temps can get down to -30C.
Average temps, though, are usually about -15C but we have these things
called Chinooks that will causes temps to go from -20C to +5C in a couple
of hours.

Where can I find more information on the solor heating panels you are using?

Thanks,
Dave.


"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> > What type of heating do you use? Any recommendations to heat
> > my shop: it's about 20x20 with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Solar (unshielded remote fusion reactor). I have a 50x50x14 shop
> and plan to heat it with three 6x12 panels this winter. Last
> winter I used a single 6x12 panel to keep shop temperature above
> freezing; and estimate that three will provide a comfortable
> daytime working environment (most days).
>
> I don't know about your locale; but a shop the size of yours here
> could probably be kept decently warm with a pair of south-facing
> 6x8 solar panels. The advantage, of course, is that there isn't
> any fuel requirement.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
>

Mike Marlow wrote:

>
> "Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>>
>> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
>> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
>> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
>> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>>
>> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
>> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
>> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
>> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave.
>
> Dave - it's pure hogwash. Thousands of woodworkers both professional and
> non have burned firewood in their shops since forever. There has indeed
> been a great deal of discussion surrounding this and in fact a great deal
> of
> real fact. In the end, you won't be able to create the type of air/fuel
> density necessary for combustion with your shop tools. You can do a
> google search and find the reports of exactly what particulate count and
> what size the particulates have to be in order to support combustion if
> you choose, but you'll find that you really can't create that environment.

Maybe _you_ can't create a pile of sawdust, but if so you are the only
woodworker in the world who is so blessed.

One does not need airborne particulates to have a fire you know.

> I use an open pilot propane furnace in my garage. It's a forced air unit
> and if anything was going to stir the air up, this thing would be the
> ticket. I do woodworking, autobody repair and painting, and I even hang a
> deer or two or three a year in there, and well, here I am writing to you,
> so
> it can't be all that bad. My garage is 26x36 with 9 foot ceilings and I
> have a big furnace - maybe bigger than I need but it was free. Don't know
> the btu rating but you could ask just about any HVAC guy and he can tell
> you
> what you'll need in a heartbeat. I'm up in Central NY and the winters
> here are long and cold, but my furnace warms the garage in minutes even on
> the worst day.
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

CW wrote:

> Same as here. "The city dump" is off limits to anyone that doesn't work
> there. We have "transfer stations". Open top semis that you approach from
> the top via a platform and throw your stuff into. Not much of a way to
> salvage anything. If you do manage to salvage something, you will be
> arrested for doing so.

And it speaks volumes for what has become of our society that one can be
arrested for taking trash from the dump.

> "Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Phil,
>> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping' at
>> the city dump.
>>
>> WHERE !!??
>>
>> Around here you'd think the stuff was either gold or nuclear waste . . .
> the
>> way it's either locked away or trucked a hundred miles away. If you don't
>> get it out of your neighbors trash before the Thursday morning pick-up .
>> .
> .
>> it's GONE !!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ron Magen
>> Backyard Boatshop
>> {That's how I got the doors that make up my heavy *big* workbench, and
> what
>> I throw across sawhorses for 'instant' ones !!}
>>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Where I live in the UK, the 'salvage rights' go to the contractor supplying
the 'transfer station' service.
Nick


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CW wrote:
>
> > Same as here. "The city dump" is off limits to anyone that doesn't work
> > there. We have "transfer stations". Open top semis that you approach
from
> > the top via a platform and throw your stuff into. Not much of a way to
> > salvage anything. If you do manage to salvage something, you will be
> > arrested for doing so.
>
> And it speaks volumes for what has become of our society that one can be
> arrested for taking trash from the dump.
>
> > "Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Phil,
> >> I keep hearing references to 'cheap at the scrap yard', and 'shopping'
at
> >> the city dump.
> >>
> >> WHERE !!??
> >>
> >> Around here you'd think the stuff was either gold or nuclear waste . .
.
> > the
> >> way it's either locked away or trucked a hundred miles away. If you
don't
> >> get it out of your neighbors trash before the Thursday morning pick-up
.
> >> .
> > .
> >> it's GONE !!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ron Magen
> >> Backyard Boatshop
> >> {That's how I got the doors that make up my heavy *big* workbench, and
> > what
> >> I throw across sawhorses for 'instant' ones !!}
> >>
>
> --
> --John
> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I salvaged a woodburning fireplace insert from a job that was never used.
It came complete with flue, flashing and cap. I've used it several winters
to heat the shop (24'x22' insulated) without problems. I am just careful to
clean the sawdust off the floor often. Takes about 1 hour to get a good
fire rolling and get it warm in there. I just love going out into the shop
on a snowy morning and building a fire-- who'd thought a woodshop could be
"cozy". On especially cold days i also use a kero heater. These type of
heaters will give off soot and odors when the wick needs replaced, otherwise
they work well. If you decide on a wood burner i would strongly suggest
getting a fan kit with it. Furthermore, if you need to buy wood, call BEFORE
it gets cold, prices are usually better. I go through about 2 cords per
season in the shop which amounts to about $150 split and delivered. (the
guy gives me a little deal 'cuz i refer his services to my own customers).
Keep in mind, you should also have plenty of endcuts to use for
indling. --dave



"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.
>
>

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

If your shop is free standing and you have either natural gas or propane
available in your area, I'd recommend a gas fired Modine (or modine-type)
heater. The unit would hang from the ceiling above the work area, is fan
assisted, and can usually be hooked up to a thermostat. My first choice for
a shop where comfort is not top priority.

A local Plumbing/Heating contractor would be happy to help ;-) I bet the
following link has some more stuff about it, but I'm too tired right now to
look at it myself:

http://modine.com/english/index2.php?pagecontent=display.php&Page_id=126&PageName=Building+HVACR&lev1=10&lev2=5

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> And it speaks volumes for what has become of our society that one can be
> arrested for taking trash from the dump.

Some dumps and transfer stations have a place to set aside the still working
stuff for others to take. Others, though, sell the scrap metal and feel that
you are stealing from them.

Seems to me that salvaging stuff is a good way to go. I know of a fellow
that made a few bucks by taking lawn mowers and repairing them. He'd sell
them for $25 to $50 or so and keep them from filling up the big hole in the
ground.

Logic and municipal laws have nothing in common.

I'm not sure if I understand the question completely. When you say open
flame are you referring to the various heaters with an actual flame
that's exposed only, or are you referring to woodstoves also?

I don't see a problem with woodstoves--we've used one for my whole life,
my father's entire life, my grandfather's entire life, his father's
entire life..do I need to go on?

Plus you've got a great place to dispose of cutoffs and sawdust. :)


Dave Rathnow wrote:
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.
>
>

I use a small karosene heater and keep it on a bench near the overhead door,
also prop up a small fan behind it to circulate the air and a coffee can of
water on top of it. I'm in a 12X18 uninsulated shop and haven't had any
problems with it. I also have a electric heater that's mounted to the
ceiling over the bench. I use it when I first go in the shop till the
karosene heater warms the shop up and also put it on low if I have some
finish drying.
Mike S.

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.
>
>

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

I use propane. I'd use natural gas if it was available. Electric is
expensive to run, but more of a cost of running enough power to get enough
heat. A 1500 watt heater is only 5118 Btu. I need at least 30,000 in my
detached garage. When the temperature gets very low, say 20 degrees or less,
I don't even try to heat the shop.

What is best for you? Depends on many factors. Insulation? Coldest
outdoor temperature? Fuel availability?
Ed

I'm curious as to how you distribute the heat in your shop. I've been
giving a lot of thought into putting in a solar powered radiant system
when I build a new shop "sometime." But how do you add solar heat in a
pre-existing building?



Morris Dovey wrote:
> "Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
>> What type of heating do you use? Any recommendations to heat
>> my shop: it's about 20x20 with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
>
> Solar (unshielded remote fusion reactor). I have a 50x50x14 shop and
> plan to heat it with three 6x12 panels this winter. Last winter I used a
> single 6x12 panel to keep shop temperature above freezing; and estimate
> that three will provide a comfortable daytime working environment (most
> days).
>
> I don't know about your locale; but a shop the size of yours here could
> probably be kept decently warm with a pair of south-facing 6x8 solar
> panels. The advantage, of course, is that there isn't any fuel requirement.
>

"Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
>
> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
>
> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> with a 12 foot ceiling.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave.

Dave - it's pure hogwash. Thousands of woodworkers both professional and
non have burned firewood in their shops since forever. There has indeed
been a great deal of discussion surrounding this and in fact a great deal of
real fact. In the end, you won't be able to create the type of air/fuel
density necessary for combustion with your shop tools. You can do a google
search and find the reports of exactly what particulate count and what size
the particulates have to be in order to support combustion if you choose,
but you'll find that you really can't create that environment.

I use an open pilot propane furnace in my garage. It's a forced air unit
and if anything was going to stir the air up, this thing would be the
ticket. I do woodworking, autobody repair and painting, and I even hang a
deer or two or three a year in there, and well, here I am writing to you, so
it can't be all that bad. My garage is 26x36 with 9 foot ceilings and I
have a big furnace - maybe bigger than I need but it was free. Don't know
the btu rating but you could ask just about any HVAC guy and he can tell you
what you'll need in a heartbeat. I'm up in Central NY and the winters here
are long and cold, but my furnace warms the garage in minutes even on the
worst day.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]
>
>

'Patriarch',
Know Phil's at a 'far distance' from here - the question was / is
rhetorical.

There has been several similar references & comments - from U.S. posters.
The closest thing around here {Philly suburbs}is driving around the
neighborhoods with a pick-up or small utility trailer on trash day {and
wouldn't my wife LOVE that !!}. The other option is 'dumpster diving' behind
K-Mart. Do that behind Home Depot or a construction site and the local
constabulary will give you a world of trouble !!

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"patriarch [email protected]>" <<patriarch> wrote

SNIP
> Uh, Ron, Phil's in South Africa. Things might be a bit different there.
>

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:40 +0200, Phil Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says...
>> Got mine from a scrap yard. Cost me R250 (about $35)Now that spring is
>> here it has been cleaned and painted all ready for next winter.
>Today it was put back in use. Snowing now and looks like it will be the
>heaviest snow since I have been here in 5 years. Well at least I have a
>stove and can get the shop warm. <G>

You in Breckenridge? I heard they got 8 inches!!!

JP
*****************
I miss the Rockies.

Lee Valley offers an interesting Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=44590&category=1,43456,43465

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
> >
> > "Dave Rathnow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:OZ3Xc.55635$X12.38428@edtnps84...
> >>
> >> With winter immanent, I'm looking at putting some heating in my shop
> >> so I can work and not freeze. I've heard people say that any
> >> kind of open flame heating is dangerous because it could ignite saw
> >> dust--I've heard others say this is rubbish.
> >>
> >> Could people share their opinions and advice? Is an open
> >> flame heater dangerous? What type of heating do you use?
> >> Any recommendations to heat my shop: it's about 20x20
> >> with a 12 foot ceiling.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Dave.
> >
> > Dave - it's pure hogwash. Thousands of woodworkers both professional
and
> > non have burned firewood in their shops since forever. There has indeed
> > been a great deal of discussion surrounding this and in fact a great
deal
> > of
> > real fact. In the end, you won't be able to create the type of air/fuel
> > density necessary for combustion with your shop tools. You can do a
> > google search and find the reports of exactly what particulate count and
> > what size the particulates have to be in order to support combustion if
> > you choose, but you'll find that you really can't create that
environment.
>
> Maybe _you_ can't create a pile of sawdust, but if so you are the only
> woodworker in the world who is so blessed.
>
> One does not need airborne particulates to have a fire you know.
>

True - but to keep this on the track that it started out on, I was not
talking about whether sawdust is flammable or not, I was talking about
explosive, which is what I interpreted the OP's question to be. I elected
to let the obvious stand on its own, which was that sawdust will burn. I
gave the OP credit for being smart enough not to throw a pail full of coals
into his sawdust pile, which is just about the only way he's going to be at
risk.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]