From another ng

In article <[email protected]>, "John Emmons" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.
>
>As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
>about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
>decades.

Plans are little use in the absence of action...
>
>Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
>happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
>pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the
responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems? Why should
taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees in Louisiana?
>
>What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
>administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
>projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
>last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
>year.

See above. Not a federal responsibility.
>
>The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
>president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
>4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

What, you think he could have done something to change its course?
>
>The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
>experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
>FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
>erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
>are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
>someone.

Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away
isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the
scene know what they're up to.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:12:02 -0700, Guess who
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:20:49 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>You don't know much about emergency management, do you?
> >
> >Don't waste your breath. He knows all about everything. I was going
> >to post the same response as you did, but knew he'd chirp in there
> >with his rubbish.
> >
> >Look here for a report:
> >http://premium.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/29/new.orleans/
> >
> >... incuding this:
> >"The governor said she had ordered state police to block re-entry
> >routes to all but emergency workers."
>
> Thanks. I've only had training in emergency management and practices
> for a little over 40 years, and personal experience with hurricanes
> for nearly 25; I was involved with the Plainfield tornado and the
> Aurora flood; so I can see where someone might mistake me for a
> know-nothing.
>
> And, I can drive in snow...
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

You guys should get some training in acting like grownups instead of using
everything you can to start a childish argument.


--
J.C.

"CW" wrote in message
> I can see this from both sides. Yes, the hams are good for organization
and
> communication but someone has to make use of this information. That's
where
> the boats come in. Both quite needed.

There's only one side ... saving lives. The news here tonight was full of
stories, and pictures, of folks being picked up off of roofs and second
floors by "someone who came by in a boat" ... IOW, quite a few folks are
alive/safe tonight because someone other than the "emergency managers" came
to the rescue.

As for the snide, derogatory "bubbas in bass boats" comments from the high
and mighty, who are also high and dry, that simply points to complete
ignorance of the marine nature of much of the populace outside the bigger
cities in SE Louisiana, where almost every house has a boat behind it, many
of them actually floating year around. To advocate not utilizing a resource
like that during _floods_ is criminal ... but then again, and from very
personal experience during a flood, not surprising.

After having lost my home in a flood four years ago, I remain to this day
totally unimpressed with "emergency management" types. AAMOF, if you've been
through that in the last ten years I can guarantee that you would recognize
some of the smug, superior-than-thou, know-it-all condescension exhibited
right here today that was noted and remarked upon after Allison in 2001 ...
where about as much "management" attitude as a Harvard MBA was exhibited,
but with barely the skills of a Home Depot manager-in-name-only.

Case in point as we speak: the looting and lawlessness going on right now
would have been foreseen by any "emergency management" leadership worthy of
the name and they are going to have to answer for it, you can bet on that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

In article <[email protected]>,
Steve Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
> incredibly accurate prediction. See
> http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html
>
> Steve

Anyone above a half-wit in NOLA knew this was inevitable, just as
anyone above a half-wit living in California knows the Big One could
hit tomorrow.

What astounds me is how poorly prepared the agencies (civic, state and
federal) appear to have been, and how quickly the facade of
civilization collapses.

Here in Canada we joked about our army being mobilized a few years ago
when Toronto got hit by a freak snowstorm, but the fact is they were
mobilized in hours, responded in hours and the operation was a success.

WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
just arriving...

--
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.

Roy

You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
looters in general.

Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
pretty soon.

Roy

Swingman wrote:
> "LRod" wrote in message
>
>
> > Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
> > they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
> > and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
> > buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
> > comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
> > adequately to.
>
> Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
> leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
> place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
> 'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).
>
> That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
> leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

I have to agree. Also, what happened in NYC was totally unexpected,
completely out of the clear blue sky, while NO had days of warning, and
years and even decades of the knowledge that what did come was going to
come, someday. I wonder how many still believe in "someday."

Sounds like Houston is getting a lot of refugees. Keep up your good
work. In the meantime, I'll make another small donation to the Red
Cross or Salvation Army. Maybe both.

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "John Emmons" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.
> >
> >As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
> >about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
> >decades.
>
> Plans are little use in the absence of action...
> >
> >Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
> >happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
> >pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.
>
> And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the
> responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems?

That started right around the time that the locals began paying
taxes to the Federal Government to support programs that weren't
strictly Federal in nature. In the instant case, perhaps protecting
NO, Biloxi and Mobile from Natural disasters became a Federal
Problem when the Feds started levying tariffs on good passing
through those ports. Keep in mind that the states cannot
levy tariffs of their own.

> Why should
> taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees
> in Louisiana?

Well the seaport of New Orleans contributes quite a bit to the the
economy of the entire country. Perhaps as much so as the Federally
subsidized farming in Indiana, the Federally-regulated fishing in
Maine (probably a bad example as I doubt that the fishermen there
think the Feds are _helping_) or the Federal highway system in Utah.
(I know, the farmers aren't PAID by the Feds, but they do benefit
from the subsidy program) Everybody gets Federal aid at the local
level, maybe we'd all be better off without it and just pay less
tax to the Federal Government, but that is not the way it is or
has been for about a century or so. And as noted above, seaports
are special in that they cannot directly tax the imports/exports
to raise revenue themselves.

> >
> >What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
> >administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
> >projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
> >last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
> >year.
>
> See above. Not a federal responsibility.

Part of the problem is that once the Feds do get involved, then
the locals get used to suckling on the Federal teat and stop
fending for themselves. Then if the Feds do a half-assed job
or pull out of the program the locals don't have the management
or infrastructure in place. In the case of NO, one imagines that
few administrations were willing to build up the levies and
the return (in campaign contributions) was probably higher if
the available funds were spent on other things like the infrastruce
needed to support tourism. Not a good thing. Not an excuse,
just some commentary.


> >
> >The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
> >experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
> >FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
> >erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
> >are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
> >someone.
>
> Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away
> isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the
> scene know what they're up to.
>

Screwed again.

--

FF

Morris Dovey wrote:
> On the news last evening I heard black leaders opining that help had
> not been forthcoming because so many of the victims were black. I
> don't believe that's the case - and that the results would have been
> exactly the same for /any/ racial mix. Either way, it's not America at
> its best.
>
> Cheaper indeed.
>
>
Yes, well, it's not blackness that's the problem, or so I think. It's
money. If you got money, you got help. If you don't got money, you
don't got help. Period. Now, this tends to apply more to blacks in some
areas (especially the deep south) than it does to whites, but IMO,
George Bush cannot even SEE people who are not neat, clean, well
dressed and making at least a quarter mil a year. Didja check out his
hugs going to the people when he was in New Orleans? For a place with
no water and no clean clothing, those were amazingly polished up
huggees. His "people" probably want to make sure the King George is not
offended by body odor.

"LRod" wrote in message

> Swingman seems to have different inside information,

Well, you got something right ... plenty of relatives in the middle of it
right now.

> but you are
> correct--in a massive disaster such as this, they need to get a lot of
> ducks lined up before they can start making use of volunteer help, and
> that takes time. The last thing they need in there now are a lot of
> good intentioned people who don't know diddly about emergency
> operations.

Again, you're full of horeshit for the most part, LRod.

Many in the area, particularly between NO and Venice, including two of my
first cousins with air-boats, and their sons with bass boats, have been
working around the clock plucking folks from the floodwaters, and their
participation has certainly never been questioned by anyone trying to "get a
lot of ducks lined up before they can start making use of volunteer help".

If you knew the folks in that part of the country, many who don't even speak
English, you would realize that you are so dead wrong in your assumptions
that it defies reason.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:51:36 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Having watched this little tete e tete, my only thought is that all those
>people sitting on the roofs of their homes waiting to be rescued before the
>home collapses are going to be darned glad that the emergency managers
>took the time to line up all the ducks and hold the volunteers before
>actually sending someone out to *gasp* rescue them from those roofs.
>They'd be real disappointed to be rescued sooner by rank amateurs with no
>clear direction or guidance from above.

But they won't *really* know whether to be happy to be rescued or not
until the power comes back up and they can research it here on Usenet.

Lee

"LRod" wrote in message
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:14:20 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:
>
> >"LRod" wrote in message
> >
> >> A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
> >> of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.
> >
> >How is that? A lot of folks have been thankful for "Bubbas" in bass
boats".
> >Historically in floods, shallow draft boats can save a ton of folks from
> >rooftops, trees, and attics.
>
> Emphasis on Bubbas, not bass boats.
>
> In emergency situations there is almost as much difficulty managing
> willing but untrained or ill equipped volunteers as there is managing
> the crisis in the first place.

IMO, that's a load of condescending horseshit. Oddly enough, the authorities
were asking for just such action from "Bubba's in bass boats" ... their
regard is obviously higher than yours, but still probably not as high as the
rescued, who could care less as long as they are.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:23:10 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:34:43 GMT, [email protected] (Lawrence
>Wasserman) wrote:
>
>>Funny, in all the news reports I heard local officials were advising
>>people to STAY AWAY!
>
>Swingman seems to have different inside information, but you are
>correct--in a massive disaster such as this, they need to get a lot of
>ducks lined up before they can start making use of volunteer help, and
>that takes time. The last thing they need in there now are a lot of
>good intentioned people who don't know diddly about emergency
>operations.

Having watched this little tete e tete, my only thought is that all those
people sitting on the roofs of their homes waiting to be rescued before the
home collapses are going to be darned glad that the emergency managers
took the time to line up all the ducks and hold the volunteers before
actually sending someone out to *gasp* rescue them from those roofs.
They'd be real disappointed to be rescued sooner by rank amateurs with no
clear direction or guidance from above.







+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:34:43 GMT, [email protected] (Lawrence
Wasserman) wrote:

>Funny, in all the news reports I heard local officials were advising
>people to STAY AWAY!

Swingman seems to have different inside information, but you are
correct--in a massive disaster such as this, they need to get a lot of
ducks lined up before they can start making use of volunteer help, and
that takes time. The last thing they need in there now are a lot of
good intentioned people who don't know diddly about emergency
operations.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

There are two major problems with cell phones in situations such as this.
The cell sites need power same as anything else. Cut the power and you're
down. There are also far more cell phones out there than there is service.
In most any emergency situation, the service is jammed to the point of being
useless. As for cell phones and satellites, ha, ha,ha...

"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:05:45 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >And, I don't see any harm in the fellow posting it on newsgroups.
>
> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
> from batteries and through satellite. My sister in law found it
> useful,and called us when they went through their last couple of
> hurricanes.
>

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:52:22 -0500, "Battleax" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>No problem, the Iridium system consists of 65 low orbit satellites. The
>phones are down to around $400 and you can call home from anywhere you can
>see sky.
>

IIRC, for about $1 per minute. So, as the pundit says, "keep it pithy"


>
>"Bruce T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I'd kind of like to see what kind of battery you'd need in that cell phone
>> to boost that signal from that itty-bitty antenna all the way to a
>> geosynchronous satellite.
>> BruceT
>>
>>
>> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:q%[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
>> >> from batteries and through satellite.
>> >

Better check into that sport. There's a reason for all those cell phone
towers around your town.


>> >
>> > When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
>> > antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell
>the
>> > guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the satellites
>> > are taking over.
>> >
>> > Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will die
>> > in a couple of days.
>> >
>>
>>
>



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 06:40:05 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.
>
> The American Red Cross has been singularly instrumental in that. Their
> volunteers have shown up from as far away as Hawaii.

Yeah, funny how much easier it is to get your shit together, when you
have power, water, and all that stuff. Face it - people are going to
bitch about the response no matter what. Some of it is legitimate
criticism, some of it is just people making noise instead of doing
something.

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:36:13 GMT, John Emmons <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

So you see the two as exclusive of the other? News flash: the people
doing looting, probably aren't _helping_ others survive either. Stop
them by whatever means is convenient, and you've solved 3 problems: they
stop looting, they stop making the situation worse, and you don't waste
time and resources trying to save that particular individual.

> Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
> happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
> pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

Which is why it's particularly asinine for people to blame Bush for the
events in question.

> The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
> president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
> 4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

Right, because he could have stopped the storm? Wake the fuck up. He
was equally powerless to predict it's path as anyone else. We get
several hurricanes a year - is he supposed to drop everything every
time? I'm sure you'd be equally critical then; "and the bozo wets his
pants every time it gets stormy" or something.

> The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
> experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
> FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
> erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
> are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
> someone.

If your plans for survival include "wait for the government to save me
despite warnings to get the hell out", well, maybe you _should_ be
stranded. It's not like they didn't have warnings, an evacuation order,
warnings, know that they lived BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR FUCKS SAKE, and
warnings.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
> > from batteries and through satellite.
>
> When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
> antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell the
> guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the satellites are
> taking over.
>
> Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will die in
> a couple of days.

I also suspect that most towers don't have any power, either, at this
point.

[email protected] wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
> >these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
> >ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.
>
> Well put. What I can't believe is that are highly praised Homeland
> Security had no plan in effect to deal with an attack on the dike
> system of one of the most important ports in the U.S.
> The Governor and Mayor need to resign as well. There is no leadership
> in that state.Its just sad, how and the hell could they not have a
> communication system set up to handel no power for at least a week.
> Its shame
> My wife and I are going to open up are home to a single mother with a
> child. And I would encourage anyone who can help this way to do it. I
> feel bad for everyone but most important is the poor kids.
>
> It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

I suspect that they (Houston) started immediately and so it hasn't been
all that quick. I also suspect they had plans already in place for the
use in the event of a direct hit in their own city.

As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
when being told what funding was being used for such massive
preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place <prior>
to now.

Swingman wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
>
> > As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
> > magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
> > and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
> > when being told what funding was being used for such massive
> > preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
> > envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place <prior>
> > to now.
>
> Sorry, as I've already stated, their predictions three days out turned out
> to be very accurate ... IMO, the _leadership_ does get paid to have "the
> strength of their predictions", so to speak.


> I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
> _leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues, at
> both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
> that regard when the chips finally fall.

I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.

It's all well and good to reevaluate and update procedures for the
future but to harp on it now is simply beating on the dead horse.

Where, for example, would they have found and how could they have gotten
a sufficient number of seats to move 50,000 people w/o transportation to
somewhere else (and where would that somewhere else be)? At 100/bus, it
would be 500 buses at least. And, how would you suggest they could have
gotten all of those people to even go to get on the buses before the
storm?

It's wishful thinking and some things could be going better, but most
while tragic is almost inevitable in the short term.

The only thing I think that really could have been done that doesn't
seem to have happened is much more massive air drops of water and food
to the stranded.

> On a brighter note ... just delivered another truck load of
> blankets/towels/books/games and clothes, compliments of more of my neighbors
> who filled up the bed for the second time in two days. The Methodist church
> is handling the former, the next door Baptist church the latter ... nice to
> put aside the red state/blue state thing, and all the other divisive issues,
> and see everyone dividing up the work and getting it done.

That's good...we Methodists here are collecting and have sent five
semi-loads of water and MRE-type food--left yesterday to head straight
through to the Baton Rouge area and coordinated w/ another Methodist
Church there.

Swingman wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
>
> > > I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
> > > _leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues,
> at
> > > both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
> > > that regard when the chips finally fall.
> >
> > I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have
> > been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
> > to cope given the geography of the area.
>
> What? The HISTORY of the Gulf Coast, and the KNOWN effects of a huricane
> (wind and water) on same, should give even the piss poorest of the
> leadership a clue.
>
...

I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one thing
to <know/predict> it's yet another to really envision what actually
occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually impossible to
grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as the complete
destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was <known>...

And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and who
I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
constructive <at this point>...

Swingman wrote:
>
> "LRod" wrote in message
>
> > Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
> > they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
> > and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
> > buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
> > comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
> > adequately to.
>
> Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
> leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
> place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
> 'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).
>
> That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
> leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

Much is to be laid at the feet of past administrations in NO not the
current I suspect. I don't believe the resources of NO spent on such
things as compared to what NYC has historically done comes even close,
even on a per capita basis. In that respect, NYC is probably head and
shoulders above any other metro area in the world.

Swingman wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
>
> > I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
> > constructive <at this point>...
>
> I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
> something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
> leadership in these times, from the top on down.
>
> And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of Rudy G
> and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea of
> his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.
>

And what I'm saying is that while I agree he appears to be a damn smart
cookie (and I don't recall for sure his persuasion either, but I think
he's a Red Stater???) I think he had <far> more resources to call upon
than does the State of LA or the City of NO. And, I don't think he had
a <whole> lot to do with that having been in place before he ever showed
up (or was born, even)...

Swingman wrote:
>
...
>
> My basis of respect for Rudy G is the same I had as the white, Southern boy
> CO of a combat unit in SE Asia, for my black, Northerner 1st Sgt.
...

I agree--he definitely has a projection about him...

One last observation, though. As terrible as it was in NYC, it was only
a small area in the heart of the city <directly> affecting something
like 20,000 people. In actual scope of the disaster and immediate
consequences it was minute compared to NO in particular and the Gulf
Coast in general.

Steve Peterson wrote:
>
> (snip)
> > I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have
> > been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
> > to cope given the geography of the area.
> (snip)
>
> Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
> incredibly accurate prediction. See
> http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html

My point is it is one thing to predict analytically, yet another to
create enough belief to react in such scope <prior> to the event. It is
so incredible and so out of character it is simply beyond most to
imagine and so they can't bring themselves to go far enough in their
actions. Wise? No. Human nature? Yes.

Place yourself in the position even if you had read the predictions and
with very limited resources and what seem to be far more pressing
issues. Can you honestly say you would have unequivocally devoted
sufficient resources to the far-off "one day"?

"ROYNEU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
> protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
> world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.
>

Didn't really pay attention to that report did you? How about - they were
pulled off of search and rescue to attempt to restore order in the face of
shootings, rapes, fires, explosions and yes - looting. Do you really
believe all of the looting that's going on down there is in the name of
"necessities" and that it's a benign environment? Better to consider it a
sad note that 4 days into this disaster, our highly funded disaster
preparedness organizations such as FEMA have fumbled so badly with this
whole thing. Not to mention that the state and local authorities had no
real plan to deal with what was a guaranteed eventuality in their area.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

I can see this from both sides. Yes, the hams are good for organization and
communication but someone has to make use of this information. That's where
the boats come in. Both quite needed.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "LRod" wrote in message
>
> > A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
> > of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.
>
> How is that? A lot of folks have been thankful for "Bubbas" in bass
boats".
> Historically in floods, shallow draft boats can save a ton of folks from
> rooftops, trees, and attics.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/29/05
>
>

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:20:49 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:


>You don't know much about emergency management, do you?

Don't waste your breath. He knows all about everything. I was going
to post the same response as you did, but knew he'd chirp in there
with his rubbish.

Look here for a report:
http://premium.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/29/new.orleans/

... incuding this:
"The governor said she had ordered state police to block re-entry
routes to all but emergency workers."

...and tell me a few hundred people dragging boats and motor homes
[they have to stay somewhere] around wouldn't get in the way.

If people want to send food, don't take it, find out what is needed
and where to send it to the people who are able to distribute it as
necessary. There is far more harm than good done by willing people
thrashing around and getting in the way of the real resuers. If he
wants to be a hero he should be there now, having gone first to the
proper authorities to ask them, instead of jumping when someone snaps
their fingers in a newsgroup as if its the right thing to do. It's
not. I know people smothered in lime-dust as others stomped around
their old farm-house trying to rescue them after it had been flattened
as they hid in the basement.

If anyone wants to go there with a boat, clogging up highways and
motels even more, then do so under the direction of people who know
what they are doing, so as to not get in their way. Don't just barge
in like an idiot, well-intentioned, but still an idiot. People should
be sure they have something to offer to not waste their time clogging
up phone lines. If they want your help they are asking elsewhere, not
here. People should go there, and act responsibly.

"LRod" wrote in message

> You can stick your condescension, too, scooter. There is a whole lot
> of difference between people in the field getting to work with what's
> at hand and bringing (or not) people in from the outside. You still
> don't know squat about emergency management, and it shows.

Look again, "Bubba", my original response was clearly, and solely to your:

> A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
> of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.

... and said nothing about "people in from the outside". As I CLEARLY stated
repeatedly, this is about folks helping each other, folks already there, and
on the ground, using whatever is at hand to rescue folks who may not make it
if they waited for the "emergency managers to get to them.

surely you can't be that dense?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:57:17 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:


>Again, you're full of horeshit for the most part, LRod.
>
>Many in the area, particularly between NO and Venice, including two of my
>first cousins with air-boats, and their sons with bass boats, have been
>working around the clock plucking folks from the floodwaters, and their
>participation has certainly never been questioned by anyone trying to "get a
>lot of ducks lined up before they can start making use of volunteer help".
>
>If you knew the folks in that part of the country, many who don't even speak
>English, you would realize that you are so dead wrong in your assumptions
>that it defies reason.

You can stick your condescension, too, scooter. There is a whole lot
of difference between people in the field getting to work with what's
at hand and bringing (or not) people in from the outside. You still
don't know squat about emergency management, and it shows.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:09:40 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's becomming very clear that LRod has a better understanding of the
>overall picture.

Well, unless we're running an election for "Chief Usenet Disaster
Preparedness Wanker", does it *matter*?

Lee

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
>these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
>ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.
>
>(Seems reasonable to expect that much of the work of these supposedly highly
>trained "emergency managers" would have been spent in "lining up their
>ducks", which seems to be their singularly most important function, before
>the fact.)
>

While it seems that things are moving slowly, this is a disaster of
proportions comparable to the San Franscisco earthquake and the Chicago
fire. In all fairness I'm not sure how much could have been prepared for a
disaster of this magnitude.

>I am beginning to suspect that, just like the last time with many of those
>with the attitude that only they know what's best for us, a lot of money has
>been wasted on this supposed "emergency management" leadership.
>

I am surprised it has taken so long for the National Guard to show up.
It is also, however, quite disappointing to see the apparent lack of
motivation by some of those affected by the disaster to take steps to help
themselves out of the situation rather than help themselves to unguarded
electronic equipment. And then to start shooting at the rescue choppers?
What are these people thinking?


>My partners in two businesses and I decided yesterday to open up any spare
>rooms we have in our homes here in Houston, and in one case a summer home,
>to refugees through a local church and synagogue jointly handling the
>listings. SWMBO, and couple of neighbors spent the morning gathering clothes
>and are heading to a Red Cross distribution point as I speak.
>

Good for you.

>ITMT, if any of you see an opportunity, besides the preaching, to pitch in
>and do something similar, it may make just as big an impact with the
>displaced as what the "professionals" seem to have been able to accomplish
>in many respects.
>

A donation through our church body (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
is going out this weekend; it will be matched $1 for $2 by an associated
fraternal benefit organization (Thrivent). At this time, it appears that
monetary donations may be one of the best ways for those of us far removed
from that area to help.




>... and instead of shooting looters, it would probably be more productive
>over the long haul to aim at the politicians who don't seem to miss an
>opportunity to get their mugs on TV.

Well, while open season on politicians (of the other persuasion of course
-- whatever persuasion you happen to be) is sometimes an appealing thought,
I now understand why, in times past, there was no quarter given to looters.
By either ignoring or not responding with force earlier, the people who
should be doing work helping rescue victims are now having to act like
guards and watchmen -- a tragic waste of time and potential cause of
additional loss of life by innocent civilians because the police can't be
performing rescues of those trapped in the various areas of the city. I
would not be surprised if "shoot to kill" orders aren't given in the not
too distant future if the anarchy being reported continues. Hopefully this
is a case of the media latching on to the bad and overlooking all the good
happening.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:14:20 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"LRod" wrote in message
>
>> A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
>> of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.
>
>How is that? A lot of folks have been thankful for "Bubbas" in bass boats".
>Historically in floods, shallow draft boats can save a ton of folks from
>rooftops, trees, and attics.

Emphasis on Bubbas, not bass boats.

In emergency situations there is almost as much difficulty managing
willing but untrained or ill equipped volunteers as there is managing
the crisis in the first place.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Duane Bozarth (in [email protected]) said:

| I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one
| thing to <know/predict> it's yet another to really envision what
| actually occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually
| impossible to grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as
| the complete destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was
| <known>...
|
| And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and
| who I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does
| anything constructive <at this point>...

It'd better, there are at least two more hurricanes a-brewing at the
moment. Preparation of emergency plans is *not* a leisure-time
play-group activity.

Furthermore, even with forty-leven levels of contingency planning, two
major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and readiness
to do what's needed - without dithering, delay, or posturing. With
stockpiles of combat rations, water, and tents we should have been
seeing massive air drops of supplies into Gulf states' drop zones
within hours of Katrina's passage - with an immediate ramp-up
following the levee failures.

The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take
immediate and effective action.

I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers has
thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency communications.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

> A donation through our church body (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran
Synod)
> is going out this weekend; it will be matched $1 for $2 by an associated
> fraternal benefit organization (Thrivent). At this time, it appears that
> monetary donations may be one of the best ways for those of us far removed
> from that area to help.

Good on you ... and you are correct about monetary assistance being sorely
needed. For anyone who hasn't heard, the American Red Cross is taking
donations at:

1-800 HELP NOW.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles
> away
> isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on
> the
> scene know what they're up to.
>

This is a big part of the problem. The local scene is so destroyed for so
far that a lot of things put in place would be unusable. and unreachable.

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message

> What astounds me is how poorly prepared the agencies (civic, state and
> federal) appear to have been, and how quickly the facade of
> civilization collapses.

> Here in Canada we joked about our army being mobilized a few years ago
> when Toronto got hit by a freak snowstorm, but the fact is they were
> mobilized in hours, responded in hours and the operation was a success.
>
> WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
> just arriving...

Pretty damn unbelievable, I agree.

However, as bad as it is, it _is_ heartening to see the reaction here in
Houston from many. Made four trips to a Red Cross drop-off point in my truck
thus far today, carrying clothes, canned goods, games, toys, blankets,
towels and every imaginable type of hygienic item, all donated by folks on
just the few streets surrounding mine. An e-mail to my immediate neighbors
this morning saying that since I had a truck, I could easily do a 'pickup
and delivery' for those who were unable, next thing I know I have a
mini-pickup point on my hands. The same thing is going on all over this
city.

When I get to these two drop-off points, the multitude of ORGANIZED
volunteers, from little kids to senior citizens, working to feed and clothe
the "refugees" here would make you feel a lot better that things are more
swiftly being addressed than you're going to see on the news.

I just watched a BBC newscast that had a decidedly political spin to it ...
really pissed me off after what I've seen here all day.

That said, I agree with everything you say.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"LRod" wrote in message

> A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
> of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.

How is that? A lot of folks have been thankful for "Bubbas" in bass boats".
Historically in floods, shallow draft boats can save a ton of folks from
rooftops, trees, and attics.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "J.C."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >The mayor of New Orleans just called out for help! Take any boat you
> >have esp flat bottom boats to New Orleans now and use FRS and CB radios
> >to communicate. THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
> >cell phones. Take all the gasoline, food and water you can. There
> >is a Sam Club in New Orleans where everyone is meeting with their
> >boats, although that is not required. Remember that the water is
> >rising and many are trapped in their homes in the attacks and are
> >unable to cut a hole in the roof to stand on it , so they will die if
> >the water rises high enough. There is no electricity whatsoever, so
> >latens, stoves and batteries are all youll be able to use.
> >
> >HURRY!
> >
> >
> >Note: maybe battery operated reciprocating saws????
>
> How do you plan to recharge the batteries when they run down?
>
> Don't need to recharge batteries on an axe...
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Yeah, I guess so.


>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers has
> thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency communications.
>
> --

I've been watching an antenna being put up. It is not all that fast and
simple and you need power to do it. AND, it must be connected to land lines
at some point.

LRod wrote:

> A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
> of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.

Are the Bubba's armed? <G>

"LRod" wrote in message


> Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
> they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
> and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
> buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
> comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
> adequately to.

Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).

That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
decades.

Read "The control of Nature" by John McPhee, he, among many writers, was
talking about the role of the Army corp of Engineers in that area and their
plans years ago.

"Mr. Bill" of SNL fame did a flippin PSA about the levees breaking well over
a year ago.

Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
year.

The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
someone.






"ROYNEU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
> to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
> pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
> looters in general.
>
> Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
> anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
> pretty soon.
>
> Roy
>

<[email protected]> wrote in message

> It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

The American Red Cross has been singularly instrumental in that. Their
volunteers have shown up from as far away as Hawaii.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

**> Preparation of emergency plans is *not* a leisure-time
> play-group activity.
>
**> two major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and
readiness
> to do what's needed - without dithering, delay, or posturing.

**> The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take
> immediate and effective action.

I am beginning to suspect that we could do worse than making a calculated
effort to replace the current crop of "emergency management" _leadership_,
at the national and regional levels, with a core of seasoned, ex military
combat leaders. I doubt there is anyone in this country, as a group, who is
better trained and more qualified to think, plan and react as you point out
** above.

Just imagine how effective FEMA could be with a Schwarzkopf in charge
instead of a politically favored lawyer.

With all the damn wars we've involved ourselves in, just in my lifetime,
there should be a few of them around.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

That just couldn't be. People have been telling hams for years now that they
are no longer needed as cell phones have made them obsolete.
CW
KC7NOD
"J.C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
> cell phones.

I'd kind of like to see what kind of battery you'd need in that cell phone
to boost that signal from that itty-bitty antenna all the way to a
geosynchronous satellite.
BruceT


"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:q%[email protected]...
>
> "Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
>> from batteries and through satellite.
>
>
> When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
> antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell the
> guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the satellites
> are taking over.
>
> Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will die
> in a couple of days.
>

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

> Having watched this little tete e tete, my only thought is that all
those
> people sitting on the roofs of their homes waiting to be rescued before
the
> home collapses are going to be darned glad that the emergency managers
> took the time to line up all the ducks and hold the volunteers before
> actually sending someone out to *gasp* rescue them from those roofs.
> They'd be real disappointed to be rescued sooner by rank amateurs with no
> clear direction or guidance from above.

Agreed. It looks to be coming down to a basic political philosophy ...
you're either the type to sit around waiting for guidance from the
all-knowing authorities/government to help you, or you help yourself, and
those around you, by taking action yourself. There is little doubt that it's
the former that's got us into much of the mess you see about you now,
aftermath of hurricanes and natural disasters inclusive.

I can tell you that I gained a new appreciation for that old saw about the
feared phrase "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" when it
happened to me.

.. and it would be politically incorrect to tell you what most down here
felt that the acronym "FEMA" really stood for after Allison in 2001. I still
get pissed when I am forced to recall that experience.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

It's becomming very clear that LRod has a better understanding of the
overall picture.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" wrote in message
> > I can see this from both sides. Yes, the hams are good for organization
> and
> > communication but someone has to make use of this information. That's
> where
> > the boats come in. Both quite needed.
>
> There's only one side ... saving lives. The news here tonight was full of
> stories, and pictures, of folks being picked up off of roofs and second
> floors by "someone who came by in a boat" ... IOW, quite a few folks are
> alive/safe tonight because someone other than the "emergency managers"
came
> to the rescue.
>
> As for the snide, derogatory "bubbas in bass boats" comments from the high
> and mighty, who are also high and dry, that simply points to complete
> ignorance of the marine nature of much of the populace outside the bigger
> cities in SE Louisiana, where almost every house has a boat behind it,
many
> of them actually floating year around. To advocate not utilizing a
resource
> like that during _floods_ is criminal ... but then again, and from very
> personal experience during a flood, not surprising.
>
> After having lost my home in a flood four years ago, I remain to this day
> totally unimpressed with "emergency management" types. AAMOF, if you've
been
> through that in the last ten years I can guarantee that you would
recognize
> some of the smug, superior-than-thou, know-it-all condescension exhibited
> right here today that was noted and remarked upon after Allison in 2001
...
> where about as much "management" attitude as a Harvard MBA was exhibited,
> but with barely the skills of a Home Depot manager-in-name-only.
>
> Case in point as we speak: the looting and lawlessness going on right now
> would have been foreseen by any "emergency management" leadership worthy
of
> the name and they are going to have to answer for it, you can bet on that.

>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/29/05
>
>

"Bruce T" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I checked into the IRIDIUM web site. After about 10 minutes, I still
>couldn't find any information about costs. If they're not advertising
>costs, my guess is that they're high enough to make one SIT DOWN and think
>about it....
>

My wife has a bank customer going to Europe and Asia for the month and is
taking one.
Because of the cost he made sure she wouldn't wouldn't call unless it was a
major problem.
The figure he mentioned was "almost $5/minute".

"CW" wrote in message
> It's becomming very clear that LRod has a better understanding of the
> overall picture.

Not unless he's sitting on a roof top waiting to be rescued.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"LRod" wrote in message

> You don't know much about emergency management, do you?

Being from SE Louisiana, having gone through numerous hurricanes and floods
of catastrophic proportions, losing a home myself to floodwaters, and
talking to relatives in the area as late as this morning, what I obviously
know a lot more about than you is that folks are continuing to help each
other where there are not enough "emergency managers" to go around, despite
what you may hear from the talking heads. politicians, and FEMA bureaucrats
on TV, which is where you are obviously getting your information.

Lord help anyone who subscribes to your "don't try this, we're the
professionals", attitude in the face of emergencies. These folks, especially
the ones outside the view of the TV cameras, are resourceful and there are
damn few "bubbas" in the part of the country, and NONE in an emergency of
this proportion.

So basically LRod, stick your condescension about "crackers" and "bubbas"
where the sun doesn't shine.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

(snip)
> I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have
> been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
> to cope given the geography of the area.
(snip)

Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
incredibly accurate prediction. See
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html

Steve

"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:13:38 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The mayor of New Orleans just called out for help! Take any boat you
> >have esp flat bottom boats to New Orleans now and use FRS and CB radios
> >to communicate. THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
> >cell phones. Take all the gasoline, food and water you can. There
> >is a Sam Club in New Orleans where everyone is meeting with their
> >boats, although that is not required.
>
> Yes it is. If you sincerely want to help, contact the authorities
> first, and they'll tell you how. However, do have something in mind
> to offer so you are not wasting their time. This guy is not one of
> the authorities [in case you hadn't guessed], and what they don't want
> is a mass of people clogging up their organised efforts. They'll put
> out the request, and it won't be through newsgroups.
>

I think the fellow meant that bringing a boat was not required. I heard the
announcement on the news and the part about bringing a boat was a little
confusing. Maybe the original poster was confused as well. What it meant to
me was that if you were bringing a boat, meet at that Sams. The other places
to meet, as I understood it, was the various Red Cross and Salvation Army
stations.

And, I don't see any harm in the fellow posting it on newsgroups.
--
J.C.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

> > I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
> > _leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues,
at
> > both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
> > that regard when the chips finally fall.
>
> I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have
> been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
> to cope given the geography of the area.

What? The HISTORY of the Gulf Coast, and the KNOWN effects of a huricane
(wind and water) on same, should give even the piss poorest of the
leadership a clue.

> It's all well and good to reevaluate and update procedures for the
> future but to harp on it now is simply beating on the dead horse.

... beat that dead horse now, so that you can keep the next one alive.

> Where, for example, would they have found and how could they have gotten
> a sufficient number of seats to move 50,000 people w/o transportation to
> somewhere else (and where would that somewhere else be)? At 100/bus, it
> would be 500 buses at least. And, how would you suggest they could have
> gotten all of those people to even go to get on the buses before the
> storm?
>
> It's wishful thinking and some things could be going better, but most
> while tragic is almost inevitable in the short term.
>
> The only thing I think that really could have been done that doesn't
> seem to have happened is much more massive air drops of water and food
> to the stranded.

READ again what I said ... granted, there are some things you can't do
anything about, but there is simply NO excuse to NOT have 'command and
control' worked out in advance when you know PRECISELY the nature of what
you have to deal with (see first above).

I can tell you, firsthand, that single, most important aspect is what gets
most combat units through tough times, _without_ them having the advantage
of knowing in advance what's going to be thrown at them.

That aspect alone, being able to direct/ and manage efforts/rescue efforts
more effectively, with adequate commincations, would have helped immensely
in the "emergency management" of this latest disaster.

There is no doubt this was lacking, that it was a leadership problem, and
there is simply NO excuse for that not being in place at both local and
Federal level.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

It goes to credibility.

"Lee DeRaud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:09:40 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It's becomming very clear that LRod has a better understanding of the
> >overall picture.
>
> Well, unless we're running an election for "Chief Usenet Disaster
> Preparedness Wanker", does it *matter*?
>
> Lee

On 2 Sep 2005 04:55:14 -0700, "ROYNEU" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
>protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
>world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.
>
>Roy

I don't think it it the material objects' protection so much as the
people doing the looting are also engaging in other acts of violence
(several murders, multiple rapes every night in the SuperDome, gangs
roaming the streets stealing from people at gun-point, stealing the buses
that are coming to evacuate people) That's what is causing the police to
have to be pulled off of rescue efforts for law enforcement -- people are
getting hurt and killed by thugs.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:25:53 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>That just couldn't be. People have been telling hams for years now that they
>are no longer needed as cell phones have made them obsolete.
>CW
>KC7NOD
>"J.C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
> THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
>> cell phones.

A couple of hams are going to be a lot more help there than a couple
of dozen Bubbas in bass boats.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

No problem, the Iridium system consists of 65 low orbit satellites. The
phones are down to around $400 and you can call home from anywhere you can
see sky.


"Bruce T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'd kind of like to see what kind of battery you'd need in that cell phone
> to boost that signal from that itty-bitty antenna all the way to a
> geosynchronous satellite.
> BruceT
>
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:q%[email protected]...
> >
> > "Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
> >> from batteries and through satellite.
> >
> >
> > When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
> > antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell
the
> > guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the satellites
> > are taking over.
> >
> > Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will die
> > in a couple of days.
> >
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:
>The mayor of New Orleans just called out for help! Take any boat you
>have esp flat bottom boats to New Orleans now and use FRS and CB radios
>to communicate. THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
>cell phones. Take all the gasoline, food and water you can. There
>is a Sam Club in New Orleans where everyone is meeting with their
>boats, although that is not required. Remember that the water is
>rising and many are trapped in their homes in the attacks and are
>unable to cut a hole in the roof to stand on it , so they will die if
>the water rises high enough. There is no electricity whatsoever, so
>latens, stoves and batteries are all youll be able to use.
>
>HURRY!
>
>
>Note: maybe battery operated reciprocating saws????

How do you plan to recharge the batteries when they run down?

Don't need to recharge batteries on an axe...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

> I am surprised it has taken so long for the National Guard to show up.
> It is also, however, quite disappointing to see the apparent lack of
> motivation by some of those affected by the disaster to take steps to help
> themselves out of the situation rather than help themselves to unguarded
> electronic equipment. And then to start shooting at the rescue
choppers?
> What are these people thinking?
>

Shouldn't Jesse Jackson be meeting with Mother Nature about now?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:06:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
>magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
>and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
>when being told what funding was being used for such massive
>preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
>envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place <prior>
>to now.

Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
adequately to.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

I checked into the IRIDIUM web site. After about 10 minutes, I still
couldn't find any information about costs. If they're not advertising
costs, my guess is that they're high enough to make one SIT DOWN and think
about it....


"Battleax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No problem, the Iridium system consists of 65 low orbit satellites. The
> phones are down to around $400 and you can call home from anywhere you can
> see sky.
>
>
> "Bruce T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'd kind of like to see what kind of battery you'd need in that cell
>> phone
>> to boost that signal from that itty-bitty antenna all the way to a
>> geosynchronous satellite.
>> BruceT
>>
>>
>> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:q%[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
>> >> from batteries and through satellite.
>> >
>> >
>> > When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
>> > antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell
> the
>> > guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the
>> > satellites
>> > are taking over.
>> >
>> > Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will
>> > die
>> > in a couple of days.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

> As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
> magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
> and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
> when being told what funding was being used for such massive
> preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
> envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place <prior>
> to now.

Sorry, as I've already stated, their predictions three days out turned out
to be very accurate ... IMO, the _leadership_ does get paid to have "the
strength of their predictions", so to speak.

I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
_leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues, at
both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
that regard when the chips finally fall.

On a brighter note ... just delivered another truck load of
blankets/towels/books/games and clothes, compliments of more of my neighbors
who filled up the bed for the second time in two days. The Methodist church
is handling the former, the next door Baptist church the latter ... nice to
put aside the red state/blue state thing, and all the other divisive issues,
and see everyone dividing up the work and getting it done.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:05:45 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >And, I don't see any harm in the fellow posting it on newsgroups.
>
> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
> from batteries and through satellite. My sister in law found it
> useful,and called us when they went through their last couple of
> hurricanes.
>
No, cells work through tower antennas. Expensive satellite phones work
through satellites.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:12:02 -0700, Guess who
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:20:49 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>You don't know much about emergency management, do you?
>
>Don't waste your breath. He knows all about everything. I was going
>to post the same response as you did, but knew he'd chirp in there
>with his rubbish.
>
>Look here for a report:
>http://premium.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/29/new.orleans/
>
>... incuding this:
>"The governor said she had ordered state police to block re-entry
>routes to all but emergency workers."

Thanks. I've only had training in emergency management and practices
for a little over 40 years, and personal experience with hurricanes
for nearly 25; I was involved with the Plainfield tornado and the
Aurora flood; so I can see where someone might mistake me for a
know-nothing.

And, I can drive in snow...

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> >
> > "Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
> >
> > > I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
> > > constructive <at this point>...
> >
> > I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
> > something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
> > leadership in these times, from the top on down.
> >
> > And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of
Rudy G
> > and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea
of
> > his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.
> >
>
> And what I'm saying is that while I agree he appears to be a damn smart
> cookie (and I don't recall for sure his persuasion either, but I think
> he's a Red Stater???) I think he had <far> more resources to call upon
> than does the State of LA or the City of NO. And, I don't think he had
> a <whole> lot to do with that having been in place before he ever showed
> up (or was born, even)...

You may be right, but thus far I've either been damn lucky, or a pretty good
judge of character based on words and actions, even from afar.

My basis of respect for Rudy G is the same I had as the white, Southern boy
CO of a combat unit in SE Asia, for my black, Northerner 1st Sgt.

He was a _man_ in the finest sense of the word, with a world of uncommon
sense, who did his job of keeping those below (and above) him alive in a
calm, competent manner that you will never forget, and that you will
recognize instantly the minute you see it again.

(Bless your peapicking heart, Top ... I hope happiness dogs your days,
wherever you are.)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:32:43 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:

>You guys should get some training in acting like grownups instead of using
>everything you can to start a childish argument.

Thanks, mom. More name calling is just what was needed to whip
everyone back in line.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:05:45 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:

>And, I don't see any harm in the fellow posting it on newsgroups.

I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
from batteries and through satellite. My sister in law found it
useful,and called us when they went through their last couple of
hurricanes.

On 2 Sep 2005 10:55:28 -0700, "ROYNEU" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
>to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
>pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
>looters in general.
>
>Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
>anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
>pretty soon.
>
>Roy

I may be wrong, but I thought that the decision to pull the police
from rescue to looter control was due to looters looting gun stores,
armed bands raping and stealing from stranded folks, drug stores being
emptied from all sorts of controlled substances, coordinated attacks
on people holed up in hotels and on doctors in hospitals, etc., etc.
This bull of referring to the looters as those poor folks just trying
to get some food and water has lived its day and we have to see what
happened as the nasty, violent perdition of animals that it was.

Dave Hall

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:00:21 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> In emergency situations there is almost as much difficulty managing
>> willing but untrained or ill equipped volunteers as there is managing
>> the crisis in the first place.
>
>IMO, that's a load of condescending horseshit. Oddly enough, the authorities
>were asking for just such action from "Bubba's in bass boats" ... their
>regard is obviously higher than yours, but still probably not as high as the
>rescued, who could care less as long as they are.

You don't know much about emergency management, do you?

Here are some excerpts of information from another newsgroup (amateur
radio, the first line of communications in nearly all major disasters)
Pay close attention to the quotes from officials. Start with Sentence
Two:

The on-the-ground situation in SE Louisiana and SW Mississippi is as
bad as television is reporting. Neither state is permitting disaster
relief agencies into the affected areas except on a very limited basis
and only then where conditions are stable. Nearly everyone is still
staging as close by as possible and waiting.

The Louisiana SM (Section Manager, an amateur radion organizational
area manager) (Mickey Cox K5MC) and SEC (Section Emergency
Coordinater-almost always works hand-in-glove with local Emergency
Operations Centers which are usually official city-wide or county-wide
agencies) (Gary Stratton K5GLS) are in communications with state
officials, who have directed them to NOT advertise for volunteers.
Some volunteers have been requested, and these are being staged at the
state EOC.

The situation for the Mississippi SM and SEC, Malcolm Keown W5XX, in
Vicksburg MS is very uncertain. His station is completely on the
ground and EchoLink repeaters in the area are off-the-air. Attempts
to contact Assistant SMs have been unsuccessful.

An AB2M.net Amateur Radio operator registration web site has been
setup and is ready to go public when approval is received. Some
Amateur Radio operators are known to be traveling towards the affected
areas with emergency services and disaster relief agencies as
dedicated communications resources.

Despite everyone's nearly overwhelming desire to help, about all we
can do right now is to make preparations for a prompt response when
the officials finally give their approval. None of us know when that
will occur.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers has
>>thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency communications.
>>
>>--
>
>
> I've been watching an antenna being put up. It is not all that fast and
> simple and you need power to do it. AND, it must be connected to land lines
> at some point.

I know Cellular One / Cingular used to be able to move "mobile cell"
trailers in for disasters, etc. Power would be self-contained
generators of land lines. Your point about the land line connection is
valid though I wonder if they've worked out some sort of wireless relay
or satellite feed by now.

Used to be - with the older cellular infrastructure systems - they could
assign priority codes to LE cells to cause the system to drop
"non-essential" communications in deference to calls initiated by
LE/FD/Rescue. IT was explained to me that this came about, at least in
part, due to the media showing up on scene, dialing up their newsrooms
and then just keeping the line open for the duration (lest they get
"scooped"). Remember way back then they didn't have digital and, while
I forget the number of frequencies available in any given cell, it was
certainly less than 45 or so.

"ROYNEU" wrote in message

> I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
> protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
> world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.

Hey Roy, in this case I don't think it was that as much as the shooting at
rescue workers... kinda hard to rescue with bullets flying.

According to one of my relatives close by, there was a rescue effort
consisting of a flotilla of over one hundred "Bubba's in bass boats"
scheduled for yesterday morning (and welcomed by the "authorities", LRod),
who couldn't do what they came for because of that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

In article <[email protected]>,
J.C. <[email protected]> wrote:
>The mayor of New Orleans just called out for help! Take any boat you
>have esp flat bottom boats to New Orleans now and use FRS and CB radios
>to communicate. THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
>cell phones. Take all the gasoline, food and water you can. There
>is a Sam Club in New Orleans where everyone is meeting with their
>boats, although that is not required. Remember that the water is
>rising and many are trapped in their homes in the attacks and are
>unable to cut a hole in the roof to stand on it , so they will die if
>the water rises high enough. There is no electricity whatsoever, so
>latens, stoves and batteries are all youll be able to use.
>
>HURRY!
>
>
>Note: maybe battery operated reciprocating saws????
>
>
>

Funny, in all the news reports I heard local officials were advising
people to STAY AWAY!


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

Edwin Pawlowski (in [email protected])
said:

| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|| I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers
|| has thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency
|| communications.
|
| I've been watching an antenna being put up. It is not all that fast
| and simple and you need power to do it. AND, it must be connected
| to land lines at some point.

Glad to hear that they're working on it.

I've only installed VHF repeaters; but the installation should go
rapidly (the only power we needed during installation was for
fine-tuning the duplexers). Land line connection could be remoted
using a (direct) microwave or (indirect) satellite link to the
connection point. Site it on the tallest stable building and get it on
the air with a pair of portable generators.

Or is it only this quick and easy for amateurs?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:31:21 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:


>
>How do you plan to recharge the batteries when they run down?
>
>Don't need to recharge batteries on an axe...

Or a wrecking bar.

If you go, take a generator if possible. You will not believe how
useful even a lowly 2.5 KW beggar is until you ain't got one in these
situations. Lots of gas and some 2 cycle oil for the chain saw. Water,
yes, but FEMA will have that coming in abundance. Food, stick with
cans. Liquor - don't.

I spent 8 days helping recovery in P'Cola last year - got cap and tee
shirt. It is not fun!

Regards.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

> While it seems that things are moving slowly, this is a disaster of
> proportions comparable to the San Franscisco earthquake and the Chicago
> fire. In all fairness I'm not sure how much could have been prepared for
a
> disaster of this magnitude.

I could agree with that, except for the fact that the "emergency managers"
kept predicting, correctly as it turns out, just how bad it was going to be
for three days beforehand ... didn't they believe their own damn
predictions?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:13:38 GMT, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote:

>The mayor of New Orleans just called out for help! Take any boat you
>have esp flat bottom boats to New Orleans now and use FRS and CB radios
>to communicate. THERE IS NO CELL PHONE POWER! Do not rely on your
>cell phones. Take all the gasoline, food and water you can. There
>is a Sam Club in New Orleans where everyone is meeting with their
>boats, although that is not required.

Yes it is. If you sincerely want to help, contact the authorities
first, and they'll tell you how. However, do have something in mind
to offer so you are not wasting their time. This guy is not one of
the authorities [in case you hadn't guessed], and what they don't want
is a mass of people clogging up their organised efforts. They'll put
out the request, and it won't be through newsgroups.

"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I do if it's not true. Also, for your information cell phones work
> from batteries and through satellite.


When did that happen? Are they going to tear down all the cell phone
antennas that have been built in the past 15 years? I'd better tell the
guy erecting one 100 feet from where I work to stop it as the satellites are
taking over.

Unless you have power for a charger, those cell phone batteries will die in
a couple of days.

Dave Balderstone wrote:

> WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
> just arriving...
>


Two words: "magnitude" and "logistics"

Don't forget some people would have been rescued from their homes had
the good folks who volunteered to go in with boats not been fired upon.
Snipers have been firing upon doctors still stuck downtown at
hospitals. Would you stroll down there as a good Samaritan to pluck
someone out of the flood if chances are you'd get blown away by one of
the nut cases? Much of the relief effort has had to be diverted to
reestablishing law and order. The damage turned out to be much worse
than expected, so cut the authorities who are working nearly 20 hours a
day, a bit of slack. How have you helped out? If you aren't part of
the solution, then you must be part of the problem. Corrupt NO police
contributed to the quickly escalating anarchy. Some of them went so far
as to turn in their badges (probably the same one's seen looting on
camera?).

Dave

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:48:04 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Lord help anyone who subscribes to your "don't try this, we're the
>professionals", attitude in the face of emergencies.

You are clearly not one of those, so keep your unprofessional opinions
to yourself. Those better prepared will undoubtedly make some
mistakes, but there'll be a Hell of a lot fewer than those caused by a
bunch of cowboys running around as if they knew what they were doing.
If you do try to go there with a boat you'll be stopped on the
highway. You'll accomplish nothing but clogging up the roads and
motels for people who really need them.

My brother and I tried to get to New York for his daughters. We
couldn't get anywhere close as police blocked the highways. What do
you think would be different here? Damn. I asked for your opinion.
Well, you can give that for what it's worth. [ By the way, they got
out and arrived home in NJ before we did.]

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

> I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
> constructive <at this point>...

I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
leadership in these times, from the top on down.

And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of Rudy G
and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea of
his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Swingman (in [email protected]) said:

| I am beginning to suspect that we could do worse than making a
| calculated effort to replace the current crop of "emergency
| management" _leadership_, at the national and regional levels, with
| a core of seasoned, ex military combat leaders. I doubt there is
| anyone in this country, as a group, who is better trained and more
| qualified to think, plan and react as you point out ** above.
|
| Just imagine how effective FEMA could be with a Schwarzkopf in
| charge instead of a politically favored lawyer.
|
| With all the damn wars we've involved ourselves in, just in my
| lifetime, there should be a few of them around.

Sadly, it's not just FEMA (who, as far as I can tell, are simply
incapable of serving in any kind of "first responder" role) but the
same pattern of behavior that the administration displayed in the
tsunami disaster.

That pattern looks a lot like: 'Lets wait a week or three and see how
many are left before we do anything - it'll be cheaper if we just let
the weak ones die where they are.'

On the news last evening I heard black leaders opining that help had
not been forthcoming because so many of the victims were black. I
don't believe that's the case - and that the results would have been
exactly the same for /any/ racial mix. Either way, it's not America at
its best.

Cheaper indeed.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
>these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
>ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

Well put. What I can't believe is that are highly praised Homeland
Security had no plan in effect to deal with an attack on the dike
system of one of the most important ports in the U.S.
The Governor and Mayor need to resign as well. There is no leadership
in that state.Its just sad, how and the hell could they not have a
communication system set up to handel no power for at least a week.
Its shame
My wife and I are going to open up are home to a single mother with a
child. And I would encourage anyone who can help this way to do it. I
feel bad for everyone but most important is the poor kids.

It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

(Seems reasonable to expect that much of the work of these supposedly highly
trained "emergency managers" would have been spent in "lining up their
ducks", which seems to be their singularly most important function, before
the fact.)

I am beginning to suspect that, just like the last time with many of those
with the attitude that only they know what's best for us, a lot of money has
been wasted on this supposed "emergency management" leadership.

My partners in two businesses and I decided yesterday to open up any spare
rooms we have in our homes here in Houston, and in one case a summer home,
to refugees through a local church and synagogue jointly handling the
listings. SWMBO, and couple of neighbors spent the morning gathering clothes
and are heading to a Red Cross distribution point as I speak.

ITMT, if any of you see an opportunity, besides the preaching, to pitch in
and do something similar, it may make just as big an impact with the
displaced as what the "professionals" seem to have been able to accomplish
in many respects.

... and instead of shooting looters, it would probably be more productive
over the long haul to aim at the politicians who don't seem to miss an
opportunity to get their mugs on TV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05