With all the talk about Blue Marples, I wonder if I really
need better chisels. What I have is not a true set and
possibly date back to the 20s. I have had them for about 30
years but don't use chisels much. They appear to be
good-high quality. Here is what is printed on them:
1-1/4" New Haven Edge Tool Co.
3/4" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
1/2" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
1/4" LAKESTOREXTRA (this one may be a little lower in
quality)
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:08:13 -0600, Australopithecus scobis
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel isn't
>much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno, but this
>chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening bench.
I'm hardly an expert, but it seems to me that if you had a problem
with the first 1/8" of a chisel due to tempering it would be that the
steel would be too hard -- and chip-prone -- rather than too soft.
What am I missing?
--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.
Patriarch wrote:
>
>
> And the quality of chisels varied greatly over time, such that a
brand
> generalization of value and durability is suspect. The ancestors of
the
> modern Stanleys, which have been widely reviled, often go for
hundreds
> each, on eBay, and serve as the models for the Lie Nielsen
reproduction
> set.
>
> More than you ever wanted to rationally know about chisels is
available
> in the Hand Tools section at www.woodcentral.com
>
> There is no shame in a mixed set of old timers that works for you.
It's
> almost considered a badge of honor in some circles.
>
Old Buck Brothers are among the best. New Buck Brothers are made by
an outfit that bought the name and are POS.
But the Buch Brothers lathe chisels are made by a different company
and have a decent reputation.
--
FF
Patriarch wrote:
> > Maybe I could improve the odds by regrinding to a different angle
or
> > something. Even so, I think if I were going to be doing a lot of
> > this, I'd have to suck it up and buy some better chisels.
Or get another set ground for harder stuff.
The grind angle means a lot with chisels.
More so than any other hand tools, I reckon.
> Look at these:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49988&cat=1,41504,41533
> &ap=1
Has any1 here tried the LVs? I'm curious.
>
> The difference in design is because of the different task for which
they
> are intended. Paring a mortise clean is a different task than
chopping
> a mortise from scratch. But other Neanders have plowed this field
> before, and better than I can today.
Well, I got mixed feelings about this. My best
mortise chisel by a country mile, is a Japanese
1/2" framing mortise chisel. It is heavy, the edge is
buller-proof and it just works the best of them all
for mortising no matter what the wood is. Fairly
high grind angle, of course. I've got some other
non-Japanese ones but I rarely go anywhere else
other than this big mutha. And everyone tells me
the edge in a Japanese chisel is fragile...
For paring I use Japanese. Or a new-ish Stanley 2"wide,
which for some inexplicable reason has only improved
with age: used to be a POS. Nowadays, it's one of the
best. All sharpened at a very low angle. Never hit
by a hammer, only pushed by hand or with a soft leather
mallet.
For general fine work I use the Kirschen firmer ones:
they are good and cheap. Middle grind angle. Sometimes
I use them with a mallet, others just hand push.
For general framing work I use three huge old Sorbys:
heavy as can be but they work really well. One has a
low-ish angle, the other is for hard stuff, the third is a
firmer 1" used for rough-and-ready mortises. All get a
hiding when needed. Not a problem:
the mallet comes out second best! ;)
> It's nice to have a bunch of sharp chisels available, when working on
a
> project. I hate to stop and sharpen, beyond a quick hone. Chisels
that
> I don't have to worry about are pretty useful tools to have about.
Amen to that!
I'd add: get what works for you. If the OP likes his
Blue Marples, then get another set and grind them at
a different angle. Then try, try, try.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:00:56 GMT, "snowdog"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Chisels are only as good as the edge YOU put on them. The most expensive
>chisel in the world is worthless if you don't know how to sharpen them.
>Stick with what you have, many folks I know go to yard sales and flea market
>to buy old chisels. Way cheaper and you have to sharpen them anyway.
I second that... I've got a set of Stanleys- not old ones from "way
back when Stanley was good", but the ones you can get in the hardware
store right now. My brother has the same set. My cuts are all smooth
and clean, and the edges hold up just fine. His are rough and look
like junk- the difference is that I carefully sharpen them on a set
of Arkansas stones, and he "sort of" sharpens them on the cupped,
course grey stone he uses on kitchen knives. In fact, any chisel that
isn't made of tin will work just fine- it's all a matter of taking
care of them.
>John C
>
>"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> With all the talk about Blue Marples, I wonder if I really need better
>> chisels. What I have is not a true set and possibly date back to the 20s.
>> I have had them for about 30 years but don't use chisels much. They
>> appear to be good-high quality. Here is what is printed on them:
>>
>> 1-1/4" New Haven Edge Tool Co.
>>
>> 3/4" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>>
>> 1/2" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>>
>> 1/4" LAKESTOREXTRA (this one may be a little lower in quality)
>
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> perfection - Marples BlueChip, old Stanley, really old and pitted Searz
> and Buck Bros. All except the Buck Bros held an edge and only required a
> light touch up after a few dozed mortises. The Buck Bros curled over and
> looked like it had been used on concrete after one side of a mortise. I'm
> not sure a Buck Bros could open a can of paint.
I was going to chime in with something similar, so I still will. :)
In my case, it was a Marples. They're the only chisels I have, and I've
always thought they were "pretty good" in spite of the frequent criticism I
see here.
Then I found out why they get frequent criticism. I tried to chisel out a
bit of rock maple with one. I normally just use hand pressure, and my
edges are perfectly sharp, thank you very much. Hand pressure wouldn't
even hardly dent this wood. So I used a mallet, gently. Two very
carefully applied taps, and the edge was all to hell. Marples chisels are
no good for rock maple, that's for sure.
Maybe I could improve the odds by regrinding to a different angle or
something. Even so, I think if I were going to be doing a lot of this, I'd
have to suck it up and buy some better chisels.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
[email protected] wrote:
>>Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel isn't
>>much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno, but this
>>chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening bench.
>
> I'm hardly an expert, but it seems to me that if you had a problem
> with the first 1/8" of a chisel due to tempering it would be that the
> steel would be too hard -- and chip-prone -- rather than too soft.
>
> What am I missing?
Something to do with the way the metal is formed in making the chisel. I
can't remember where I saw it either. Something about the end being
whacked together, and there's a seam there right at the far end that's
supposed to get ground off. If it's not ground back far enough, the steel
right at the end can be weak. Or something. :) Anyway, it was a pretty
legitimate looking case. Just evidently not such a memorable one.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Patriarch wrote:
>
> Or work with something other than rock maple.
>
> Look at these:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49988&cat=1,41504,41533
> &ap=1
>
> Then look at these:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46403&cat=1,41504
>
And then look at these by Jim Wiison:
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/Boxes1.html
These mortising chisels have nice sharp square
edges and a long beefy bevel. Get one started
square and you don't need to pare the sides
of a mortise. And rolling the cutting edge would
take a bit of doing.
> The difference in design is because of the different task for which they
> are intended. Paring a mortise clean is a different task than chopping
> a mortise from scratch. But other Neanders have plowed this field
> before, and better than I can today.
>
> It's nice to have a bunch of sharp chisels available, when working on a
> project. I hate to stop and sharpen, beyond a quick hone. Chisels that
> I don't have to worry about are pretty useful tools to have about.
>
> Patriarch
If they take and hold a good edge, there is probably no reason to
replace them. Flatten the back, sharpen, and enjoy
John
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:10:18 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>With all the talk about Blue Marples, I wonder if I really
>need better chisels. What I have is not a true set and
>possibly date back to the 20s. I have had them for about 30
>years but don't use chisels much. They appear to be
>good-high quality. Here is what is printed on them:
>
>1-1/4" New Haven Edge Tool Co.
>
>3/4" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>
>1/2" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>
>1/4" LAKESTOREXTRA (this one may be a little lower in
>quality)
On 24 Jan 2005 13:07:18 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Can someone clue me in on the "scary sharp" process?
Use spray adhesive to attach sandpaper to plate glass or something
else that is really flat, and sharpen the chisel the same way you
would using a stone. Just start with 200 grit, and work up one grit
at a time until you reach 1500 or 2000 grit automotive sandpaper.
Makes the edge really shiny, and does indeed work very nicely, though
I still prefer my stones- more for asthetic reasons than anything.
There's a website somewhere that describes it in greater detail, just
do a google search for "scary sharp".
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:00:56 +0000, snowdog wrote:
>
>> Chisels are only as good as the edge YOU put on them. The most
>> expensive chisel in the world is worthless if you don't know how to
>> sharpen them. Stick with what you have, many folks I know go to yard
>> sales and flea market to buy old chisels. Way cheaper and you have
>> to sharpen them anyway.
>
> And the best edge on a crappy chisel is worthless. I found this out
> while cleaning up mortises in red oak using four brands scary
> sharpened to perfection - Marples BlueChip, old Stanley, really old
> and pitted Searz and Buck Bros. All except the Buck Bros held an edge
> and only required a light touch up after a few dozed mortises. The
> Buck Bros curled over and looked like it had been used on concrete
> after one side of a mortise. I'm not sure a Buck Bros could open a
> can of paint.
>
> - Doug
>
And the quality of chisels varied greatly over time, such that a brand
generalization of value and durability is suspect. The ancestors of the
modern Stanleys, which have been widely reviled, often go for hundreds
each, on eBay, and serve as the models for the Lie Nielsen reproduction
set.
More than you ever wanted to rationally know about chisels is available
in the Hand Tools section at www.woodcentral.com
There is no shame in a mixed set of old timers that works for you. It's
almost considered a badge of honor in some circles.
Patriarch
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>
>> perfection - Marples BlueChip, old Stanley, really old and pitted
>> Searz and Buck Bros. All except the Buck Bros held an edge and only
>> required a light touch up after a few dozed mortises. The Buck Bros
>> curled over and looked like it had been used on concrete after one
>> side of a mortise. I'm not sure a Buck Bros could open a can of
>> paint.
>
> I was going to chime in with something similar, so I still will. :)
>
> In my case, it was a Marples. They're the only chisels I have, and
> I've always thought they were "pretty good" in spite of the frequent
> criticism I see here.
>
> Then I found out why they get frequent criticism. I tried to chisel
> out a bit of rock maple with one. I normally just use hand pressure,
> and my edges are perfectly sharp, thank you very much. Hand pressure
> wouldn't even hardly dent this wood. So I used a mallet, gently. Two
> very carefully applied taps, and the edge was all to hell. Marples
> chisels are no good for rock maple, that's for sure.
>
> Maybe I could improve the odds by regrinding to a different angle or
> something. Even so, I think if I were going to be doing a lot of
> this, I'd have to suck it up and buy some better chisels.
>
Or work with something other than rock maple.
Look at these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49988&cat=1,41504,41533
&ap=1
Then look at these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46403&cat=1,41504
The difference in design is because of the different task for which they
are intended. Paring a mortise clean is a different task than chopping
a mortise from scratch. But other Neanders have plowed this field
before, and better than I can today.
It's nice to have a bunch of sharp chisels available, when working on a
project. I hate to stop and sharpen, beyond a quick hone. Chisels that
I don't have to worry about are pretty useful tools to have about.
Patriarch
charlie b <[email protected]> wrote in news:41FA0D79.40E7
@accesscom.com:
<snip>
> And then look at these by Jim Wiison:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/Boxes1.html
>
> These mortising chisels have nice sharp square
> edges and a long beefy bevel. Get one started
> square and you don't need to pare the sides
> of a mortise. And rolling the cutting edge would
> take a bit of doing.
As I recall, Jim stopped making these. Otherwise, I think I'd warm up my
checkbook.
Patriarch
"Noons" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1106913605.258413.227150
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> Patriarch wrote:
>
>> Look at these:
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49988&cat=1,41504,41533
>> &ap=1
>
> Has any1 here tried the LVs? I'm curious.
Yep, I used the Hirsch 6mm and 10mm as shown on that Lee Valley web page.
They are great chisels. Long and easy to square. Huge handles that you
can really whack. Lots of steel to pry the big chips. Nice tools.
Australopithecus scobis <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:42:27 +0000, Nate Perkins wrote:
>
>>> Has any1 here tried the LVs? I'm curious.
>>
>> Yep, I used the Hirsch 6mm and 10mm as shown on that Lee Valley web
>> page. They are great chisels. Long and easy to square. Huge handles
>> that you can really whack. Lots of steel to pry the big chips. Nice
>> tools.
>
> I just got the 10mm Hirsch mortise chisel from LV. Back was convex.
> Took forever to lap flat on 220 SiC and 800 waterstone. Had just read
> somebody's opinion on the web about paring the mortise down a fraction
> of an inch, before starting the vertical cutting, so the blade has
> something to register against. Finished cutting a nice square hole in
> a tubafor. I remember tapping it twice with a light mallet in the
> course of that mortise; the rest was just hand pressure. The blade
> edge was curled and nicked! Frankly, it looked worse than my 3/8"
> Marples blue chip after mortising some ash (got a mortise chisel for a
> reason...).
>
> FWIW, I had the bevel and the back "nose-hair" shiny on a 10k Ice Bear
> stone before starting the mortise. Stropped a couple of times during
> the cut on leather+green crayon.
>
> Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel
> isn't much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno,
> but this chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening
> bench.
>
> For better or worse, the ugly yellow handle coating is coming off in
> long streaks. Can't come off soon enough. Maybe it didn't like the
> acetone I used to get the lacquer off the blade.
>
> This thing will cut mortises, but I'm a bit disappointed with my first
> "quality" chisel. It seems no better than my Blue Chips and Fat Maxes,
> just a whole lot bigger.
>
> YMMV
What kind of angle did you use for the sharpening? A mortising chisel
is usually sharpened at a pretty high angle (I do mine around 35
degrees, by hand, on the microbevel only, and only go to about 1200
waterstone).
Also, it's usually driven hard with a big mallet (mine's made of scrap
goncalo alves) and then leaned on hard to pry chips. I mean a big
mallet, just whacking the hell out of it. Excellent stress reliever.
Very different from the way you'd treat a bench chisel.
I didn't bother to lap the back, or clean off the blade coating on mine.
The handle coating is still intact.
Sorry you are not satisfied with the chisel. Perhaps it is worth
talking with LV; they are of course known for excellent customer
service.
Chisels are only as good as the edge YOU put on them. The most expensive
chisel in the world is worthless if you don't know how to sharpen them.
Stick with what you have, many folks I know go to yard sales and flea market
to buy old chisels. Way cheaper and you have to sharpen them anyway.
John C
"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With all the talk about Blue Marples, I wonder if I really need better
> chisels. What I have is not a true set and possibly date back to the 20s.
> I have had them for about 30 years but don't use chisels much. They
> appear to be good-high quality. Here is what is printed on them:
>
> 1-1/4" New Haven Edge Tool Co.
>
> 3/4" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>
> 1/2" B.O.A. For H.D.A. & Co.
>
> 1/4" LAKESTOREXTRA (this one may be a little lower in quality)
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:57:27 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:36:31 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:08:13 -0600, Australopithecus scobis
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel isn't
>>>much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno, but this
>>>chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening bench.
>>
>>I'm hardly an expert, but it seems to me that if you had a problem
>>with the first 1/8" of a chisel due to tempering it would be that the
>>steel would be too hard -- and chip-prone -- rather than too soft.
>>
>>What am I missing?
>>
>>--RC
>
>it's probably detempered by the factory grinding process. sharpen past
>it and you'll be fine.
That makes sense. Thanks.
--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.
[email protected] wrote:
> Can someone clue me in on the "scary sharp" process?
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/scary.html
Glen
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:00:56 +0000, snowdog wrote:
> Chisels are only as good as the edge YOU put on them. The most expensive
> chisel in the world is worthless if you don't know how to sharpen them.
> Stick with what you have, many folks I know go to yard sales and flea
> market to buy old chisels. Way cheaper and you have to sharpen them
> anyway.
And the best edge on a crappy chisel is worthless. I found this out while
cleaning up mortises in red oak using four brands scary sharpened to
perfection - Marples BlueChip, old Stanley, really old and pitted Searz
and Buck Bros. All except the Buck Bros held an edge and only required a
light touch up after a few dozed mortises. The Buck Bros curled over and
looked like it had been used on concrete after one side of a mortise. I'm
not sure a Buck Bros could open a can of paint.
- Doug
--
To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:42:27 +0000, Nate Perkins wrote:
>> Has any1 here tried the LVs? I'm curious.
>
> Yep, I used the Hirsch 6mm and 10mm as shown on that Lee Valley web
> page. They are great chisels. Long and easy to square. Huge handles
> that you can really whack. Lots of steel to pry the big chips. Nice
> tools.
I just got the 10mm Hirsch mortise chisel from LV. Back was convex. Took
forever to lap flat on 220 SiC and 800 waterstone. Had just read
somebody's opinion on the web about paring the mortise down a fraction of
an inch, before starting the vertical cutting, so the blade has something
to register against. Finished cutting a nice square hole in a tubafor. I
remember tapping it twice with a light mallet in the course of that
mortise; the rest was just hand pressure. The blade edge was curled and
nicked! Frankly, it looked worse than my 3/8" Marples blue chip after
mortising some ash (got a mortise chisel for a reason...).
FWIW, I had the bevel and the back "nose-hair" shiny on a 10k Ice Bear
stone before starting the mortise. Stropped a couple of times during the
cut on leather+green crayon.
Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel isn't
much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno, but this
chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening bench.
For better or worse, the ugly yellow handle coating is coming off in long
streaks. Can't come off soon enough. Maybe it didn't like the acetone I
used to get the lacquer off the blade.
This thing will cut mortises, but I'm a bit disappointed with my first
"quality" chisel. It seems no better than my Blue Chips and Fat Maxes,
just a whole lot bigger.
YMMV
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:36:31 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:08:13 -0600, Australopithecus scobis
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Somebody else opined somewhere that the first 1/8" of a new chisel isn't
>>much good, something to do with the tempering process. I dunno, but this
>>chisel looks to be spending a lot of time at the sharpening bench.
>
>I'm hardly an expert, but it seems to me that if you had a problem
>with the first 1/8" of a chisel due to tempering it would be that the
>steel would be too hard -- and chip-prone -- rather than too soft.
>
>What am I missing?
>
>--RC
it's probably detempered by the factory grinding process. sharpen past
it and you'll be fine.