We've recently hired a contractor to redo our kitchen. For a reasonable
price, he said he'd like to make the cabinets (vs. store bought as the
other contractor candidates planned), and finish the hardwood floors
himself. He brushes polyurethane on the floor, and sprays it on and in
the cabinets.
How does this type of finish compare to the "industrial" finishes done
by companies like Kraftmaid for the cabinets? How does this type of
floor finish (for a high traffic area) compare (especially regarding
durability) to a prefinished solid wood floor (cherry)?
He's invited us to his home to see his cabinets. They are just a few
years old, so it will be impossible to assess how well the finish will
wear, but it will be a good chance to see the craftsmanship. (Our old,
store bought, cabinets have a few areas (particularly around the stove
and sink) where the finish lifted and changed color, hence my concerns.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
David
(FWIW, I liked him best of all the contractors. After learning of my
woodworking interest, he invited me to help in the cabinet building -
and anything else I had time for - (said he'd either teach me stuff, or
let me work off (i.e. sand off) some of the expense of the cabinets. He
seems like a creative thinker in terms of design, and a bit of a
perfectionist in everything else.)
>> They have nano technology. I guess the oxide powder is ground into real
>> small particles. Sorry, Mannington doesn't have nano technology. It's
>> all a game.
Of course you've seen this yourself and have hard evidence? My pre-finished
floors are holding up quite well after about 5 or 6 years now. Need far
less care than the typical poly floor.
Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
would be done with poly for sure. However, if the contractor is good
at his business you will get a better finish from him, then pre-
finished.
Store bought cabinets could possibly be done with lacquer which looks
great (at first), is much faster and easier for the manufacture but
will not hold up near as well as poly. Sprayed poly, will be about as
durable as you can get. Again, making sure the guy is good at his
business is important. This is one process that cannot be undone or
easily repaired on large areas if it is not done right the first time.
If this is his business, just get some references. His own home is OK
but I would want to talk to other "Customers", just to make sure he is
and has been in business and not that he did his own and wants to do
yours too.
Finally, I am surprised that he didn't suggest doing pre-finished
interiors or even better in my opinion, laminate interiors. Yes,
laminate seems cheap but for interiors it is really nice in my
opinion. Most commercial builders would easily be able to do either. I
know the pre-finished interiors would be cheaper, not sure about
laminates, depends on his shop setup.
Finally, maple dovetailed drawer boxes for a real nice touch. If he is
in the business, he can buy them and get you real nice stuff for not
too much.
On Mar 18, 3:28=A0pm, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> We've recently hired a contractor to redo our kitchen. For a reasonable
> price, he said he'd like to make the cabinets (vs. store bought as the
> other contractor candidates planned), and finish the hardwood floors
> himself. =A0He brushes polyurethane on the floor, and sprays it on and in
> the cabinets.
>
> How does this type of finish compare to the "industrial" finishes done
> by companies like Kraftmaid for the cabinets? =A0How does this type of
> floor finish (for a high traffic area) compare (especially regarding
> durability) to a prefinished solid wood floor (cherry)?
>
> He's invited us to his home to see his cabinets. They are just a few
> years old, so it will be impossible to assess how well the finish will
> wear, but it will be a good chance to see the craftsmanship. (Our old,
> store bought, cabinets have a few areas (particularly around the stove
> and sink) where the finish lifted and changed color, hence my concerns.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> David
>
> (FWIW, I liked him best of all the contractors. =A0After learning of my
> woodworking interest, he invited me to help in the cabinet building -
> and anything else I had time for - (said he'd either teach me stuff, or
> let me work off (i.e. sand off) some of the expense of the cabinets. He
> seems like a creative thinker in terms of design, and a bit of a
> perfectionist in everything else.)
> They have nano technology. I guess the oxide powder is ground into real
> small particles. Sorry, Mannington doesn't have nano technology. It's
> all a game.
Marketing and ads often exaggerate or even outright lie.
Nano is an abused term for marketing, but there is actually some science
going on that is making it to the current marketplace. Often you won't
know because it's a trade secret and the company only wants the benefit
of the nano property without the complexity of customer relations and
possible product regulations.
Paints and varnishes with nano-tech have been coming out into the market
since pre-2002. Many hospitals and labs have already been sold on the
silver nano anti-bacterial paints. The water and stain repellent paints
are impressive also, used both in commercial and residential new
construction.
Nano is a buzzword, but if presented truthfully it does tend to promote
two ideas. It's usually a post 2000 formula and it's a high-tech formula,
(mixing, dispersion and binding issues). Nano particles aren't always
magic. Although there are some with special properties, many nano
particles are just smaller. Smaller particles of an opaque substance,
aluminum oxide for instance, make a more translucent product. (paint,
varnish or sunscreen) More translucency could allow a higher ratio of
aluminum oxide in the nano-tech product, it does in the nano sunscreen
products.
On the flip-side most of these products have not been field tested yet
for their full warranty years.
When I run out of stock, I'll surely pick up at least some samples of
newer nano-tech finishes. Theoretically, they can be better. It remains
to be seen if each specific one is actually any better. I'm especially
waiting for the color changing nano-paints to reach mass market.
Answer to the original question:
If you can afford it and can verify quality of workmanship, almost always
custom made for cabinets. Floors are 50/50, exotics you should go custom.
Standard varieties of quality pre-finished flooring can be more cost
effective than custom. Cheap stuff is cheap stuff, thin veneer topped
floors and cheap MDF cabinets usually aren't worth the install costs.
The real question should be why or who for? Is this for you or just to
fix up and sell? Do you care what it's made of? How about the local home
buyers, do they care? Then the answers should be obvious.
"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
It also destroys chop saw blades while doing nothing
to strengthen the substrate. Hit it with enough force,
say, by dropping a hammer, and it dents. Repair is
difficult, if not impossible.
We tried cutting a floor vent with a Dremel with an alox
cutoff wheel. Lots of smoke, and you could watch the
wheel shrink down to nothing in about 30 seconds.
**************************
Never had that problem with pre-finished flooring, but I did with laminate.
That stuff is hell on blades.
Yeah it might be something better but I always see those types of
branded names as something like the additives in gasoline like Techron
in Chevron gas. The marketers are looking for some angle to
differentiate. So yes, most people think about durability when buying
floors so you position your product as having some unique thing
"ScratchResistT" and no one else has that exact same thing so you
might win the business. I did a Google search of Varathane, and then
looked at their Diamond Floor finish. Here is their thing:
"Varathane Diamond Floor Finish is formulated with patented Aluminum
Oxide Nano Technology to outperforms leading national brands with
superior scuff and scratch resistance."
They have nano technology. I guess the oxide powder is ground into
real small particles. Sorry, Mannington doesn't have nano technology.
It's all a game. The other big push in floor finishes looks to be
"clarity", yes it's hard but is it clear? Varathena has language about
that too.
As I said, Poly is about as hard as you are going to get but an oxide
additive type might be a good addition.
It's like "Mountain Grown" coffee. I believe that coffee bushes will
only grow well above certain elevations anyway, so it is all mountain
grown.
On Mar 18, 7:03=A0pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:10238e03-55d4-4e20-84ea-74a00da981ef@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
> would be done with poly for sure.
>
> Not exactly, at least not like it will be done on the job, =A0Most are usi=
ng
> more sophisticated finishes than available in a paint store and need speci=
al
> equipment to apply it.
>
> From Mannington
> Introducing ScratchResistT. Unbeatable Durability.
> Our 7-step UltraWear=AE Plus finish with ScratchResistT is a
> polyurethane/aluminum oxide finish that provides unsurpassed protection
> against normal wear. Each UltraWear=AE Plus step is an ultraviolet cured
> process we pioneered. It gives our solvent-free finishes
> wear-and-scuff-resistance along with depth and clarity you just can't get
> any other way. Waxing? Polishing? Forget it! ScratchResistT helps to prote=
ct
> against fine scratches that dull the finish of wood floors. Now available =
on
> all Mannington Wood Floors
On Mar 18, 6:28 pm, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> We've recently hired a contractor to redo our kitchen. For a reasonable
> price, he said he'd like to make the cabinets (vs. store bought as the
> other contractor candidates planned), and finish the hardwood floors
> himself. He brushes polyurethane on the floor, and sprays it on and in
> the cabinets.
>
> How does this type of finish compare to the "industrial" finishes done
> by companies like Kraftmaid for the cabinets? How does this type of
> floor finish (for a high traffic area) compare (especially regarding
> durability) to a prefinished solid wood floor (cherry)?
>
> He's invited us to his home to see his cabinets. They are just a few
> years old, so it will be impossible to assess how well the finish will
> wear, but it will be a good chance to see the craftsmanship. (Our old,
> store bought, cabinets have a few areas (particularly around the stove
> and sink) where the finish lifted and changed color, hence my concerns.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> David
>
> (FWIW, I liked him best of all the contractors. After learning of my
> woodworking interest, he invited me to help in the cabinet building -
> and anything else I had time for - (said he'd either teach me stuff, or
> let me work off (i.e. sand off) some of the expense of the cabinets. He
> seems like a creative thinker in terms of design, and a bit of a
> perfectionist in everything else.)
If his cabinets are a few years old you'll get a pretty good idea
about how the finish will wear. There's no point in looking at
cabinets that are twenty years old. Cabinets that look bad might have
had the holy crap beat out of them, but actually be really well done.
Conversely, great looking old cabinets might mean that the people
don't know how to cook, are expert and making reservations, don't have
kids and don't know where the pots and pans are kept!
Custom built cabinets can be better or worse than store bought, but if
the guy is a bit of a perfectionist I'd imagine they'd be better than
the typical cabinets you'd get with the other contractors. The fact
that he's willing to help you learn more about woodworking and do some
of the menial labor is great. You'll learn a boat load under the
tutelage of someone who knows what they're doing.
Sounds like you might have found yourself a winner. Check some
references and see some other kitchens and floors he's done, and if
they're good, you have a good feeling about the guy and the price is
reasonable, it sounds like good a deal.
R
David,
> (FWIW, I liked him best of all the contractors. =A0After learning of my
> woodworking interest, he invited me to help in the cabinet building -
> and anything else I had time for - (said he'd either teach me stuff, or
> let me work off (i.e. sand off) some of the expense of the cabinets. He
> seems like a creative thinker in terms of design, and a bit of a
> perfectionist in everything else.)
I found a cabinetmaker who allowed me to go with him to
pick out the cherry from the lumber yard. I didn't have time
to work in his shop (to be honest, he didn't offer). But what
I did do, is to visit it. It was neat as a pin. Not sure if he
cleaned up for my visit, but was impressed. His references
all checked out.
Norm's been building a kitchen (most boring of his shows,
I'd have to say). He used prefinished maple ply for his carcasses.
Looks like a great idea. Easy to maintain and saves money
in finishing.
You got a great guy from what I can see. Call 3 of his last
jobs tho and check with local contractor agency to make
sure he hasn't any bad references to his name. Oh, I'm
sure you'll ask for his insurance number. He will be coming
into your home after all.
MJ Wallace
"David" wrote
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
As far as the cabinets go, the proof is in the pudding. Take a look at what
he did, and if you like what you see, be sure to put the same quality
expectation in the specs for the job.
Caveat: when comparing a cabinetmaker built to a factory product like
KraftMaid, don't be fooled by eye candy. The "feel" is more important than
the "look", particularly to those unsure of the differences. You should be
able to feel a solidness to the construction that is just not evident in
most factory built, or even builder built, cabinets. You get this feel by
opening and closing drawers and doors and pushing on sides and backs.
Most of the factory made cabinets look really good, but under the hood do
not compare with a good cabinetmaker's efforts which may not be as fancy or
ornate. AAMOF, once your eye gets trained to the difference, just a walk
through place like the Borg's that sell even the higher grade factory
kitchen cabinets literally screams out to you, CHEAP!
It could well be that you've stumbled upon that rare being in construction
these days ... keep your fingers crossed.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:10238e03-55d4-4e20-84ea-74a00da981ef@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
would be done with poly for sure.
Not exactly, at least not like it will be done on the job, Most are using
more sophisticated finishes than available in a paint store and need special
equipment to apply it.
From Mannington
Introducing ScratchResistT. Unbeatable Durability.
Our 7-step UltraWear® Plus finish with ScratchResistT is a
polyurethane/aluminum oxide finish that provides unsurpassed protection
against normal wear. Each UltraWear® Plus step is an ultraviolet cured
process we pioneered. It gives our solvent-free finishes
wear-and-scuff-resistance along with depth and clarity you just can't get
any other way. Waxing? Polishing? Forget it! ScratchResistT helps to protect
against fine scratches that dull the finish of wood floors. Now available on
all Mannington Wood Floors
"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We've recently hired a contractor to redo our kitchen. For a reasonable
> price, he said he'd like to make the cabinets (vs. store bought as the
> other contractor candidates planned), and finish the hardwood floors
> himself. He brushes polyurethane on the floor, and sprays it on and in
> the cabinets.
>
> How does this type of finish compare to the "industrial" finishes done by
> companies like Kraftmaid for the cabinets? How does this type of floor
> finish (for a high traffic area) compare (especially regarding durability)
> to a prefinished solid wood floor (cherry)?
>
> He's invited us to his home to see his cabinets. They are just a few years
> old, so it will be impossible to assess how well the finish will wear, but
> it will be a good chance to see the craftsmanship. (Our old, store bought,
> cabinets have a few areas (particularly around the stove and sink) where
> the finish lifted and changed color, hence my concerns.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> David
>
> (FWIW, I liked him best of all the contractors. After learning of my
> woodworking interest, he invited me to help in the cabinet building - and
> anything else I had time for - (said he'd either teach me stuff, or let me
> work off (i.e. sand off) some of the expense of the cabinets. He seems
> like a creative thinker in terms of design, and a bit of a perfectionist
> in everything else.)
The one problem with the " store bought" is they come in certain sizes So
you end up filler strips.Cabinet maker builds the cabinets to fit your
needs. As for quality there is a wide range from low end to high end. Also
the price varies. In my opinion a good contractor has a cabinet builder he
works with and will build the cabinets to your likening. I would go check
out your contractors Cabinets. Now this is a fact it is hard to find a good
contractor if you are happy and pleased with your contactors work it's a no
brainier. Now hear is some other advice If you are getting bids from various
contractors ask them were they get there cabinets if the say Home Depot or
Lowes your in trouble I guarantee they will screw everything up. At one time
someone posted some sting video's of HD. and people that got screwed , one
was a lady that said they have been working on her kitchen for over a year.
My own experience ordering Widows and doors for my old house I'll never
order anything from them again. The other thing is really think out what you
want little stuff like do I want an outlet in certain spot, try and save
yourself from extra's
On Mar 19, 7:45 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:10238e03-55d4-4e20-84ea-74a00da981ef@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...=
> > Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
> > would be done with poly for sure.
>
> > Not exactly, at least not like it will be done on the job, Most are
> > using more sophisticated finishes than available in a paint store
> > and
> > need special equipment to apply it.
>
> > From Mannington
> > Introducing ScratchResistT. Unbeatable Durability.
> > Our 7-step UltraWear=AE Plus finish with ScratchResistT is a
> > polyurethane/aluminum oxide finish that provides unsurpassed
> > protection against normal wear. Each UltraWear=AE Plus step is an
> > ultraviolet cured process we pioneered. It gives our solvent-free
> > finishes wear-and-scuff-resistance along with depth and clarity you
> > just can't get any other way. Waxing? Polishing? Forget it!
> > ScratchResistT helps to protect against fine scratches that dull the
> > finish of wood floors. Now available on all Mannington Wood Floors
>
> Actually it's just polyurethane with aluminum oxide powder added. The
> "ultraviolet cured process" doesn't add anything to the durability, it
> just lets them get seven coats on in fifteen minutes.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
It also destroys chop saw blades while doing nothing
to strengthen the substrate. Hit it with enough force,
say, by dropping a hammer, and it dents. Repair is
difficult, if not impossible.
We tried cutting a floor vent with a Dremel with an alox
cutoff wheel. Lots of smoke, and you could watch the
wheel shrink down to nothing in about 30 seconds.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:10238e03-55d4-4e20-84ea-74a00da981ef@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
> would be done with poly for sure.
>
> Not exactly, at least not like it will be done on the job, Most are
> using more sophisticated finishes than available in a paint store
> and
> need special equipment to apply it.
>
> From Mannington
> Introducing ScratchResistT. Unbeatable Durability.
> Our 7-step UltraWear® Plus finish with ScratchResistT is a
> polyurethane/aluminum oxide finish that provides unsurpassed
> protection against normal wear. Each UltraWear® Plus step is an
> ultraviolet cured process we pioneered. It gives our solvent-free
> finishes wear-and-scuff-resistance along with depth and clarity you
> just can't get any other way. Waxing? Polishing? Forget it!
> ScratchResistT helps to protect against fine scratches that dull the
> finish of wood floors. Now available on all Mannington Wood Floors
Actually it's just polyurethane with aluminum oxide powder added. The
"ultraviolet cured process" doesn't add anything to the durability, it
just lets them get seven coats on in fifteen minutes.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Father Haskell wrote:
> On Mar 19, 7:45 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:10238e03-55d4-4e20-84ea-74a00da981ef@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> Polyurethane is nearly as tough as it gets. The pre-finished floor
>>> would be done with poly for sure.
>>
>>> Not exactly, at least not like it will be done on the job, Most
>>> are
>>> using more sophisticated finishes than available in a paint store
>>> and
>>> need special equipment to apply it.
>>
>>> From Mannington
>>> Introducing ScratchResistT. Unbeatable Durability.
>>> Our 7-step UltraWear® Plus finish with ScratchResistT is a
>>> polyurethane/aluminum oxide finish that provides unsurpassed
>>> protection against normal wear. Each UltraWear® Plus step is an
>>> ultraviolet cured process we pioneered. It gives our solvent-free
>>> finishes wear-and-scuff-resistance along with depth and clarity
>>> you
>>> just can't get any other way. Waxing? Polishing? Forget it!
>>> ScratchResistT helps to protect against fine scratches that dull
>>> the
>>> finish of wood floors. Now available on all Mannington Wood Floors
>>
>> Actually it's just polyurethane with aluminum oxide powder added.
>> The "ultraviolet cured process" doesn't add anything to the
>> durability, it just lets them get seven coats on in fifteen
>> minutes.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
> It also destroys chop saw blades while doing nothing
> to strengthen the substrate. Hit it with enough force,
> say, by dropping a hammer, and it dents. Repair is
> difficult, if not impossible.
>
> We tried cutting a floor vent with a Dremel with an alox
> cutoff wheel. Lots of smoke, and you could watch the
> wheel shrink down to nothing in about 30 seconds.
It's the aluminum oxide powder doing that, not the UV cure.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)