Hello
I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out of
3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2" poplar
frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and the
third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
Thanks
Larry C
"Larry C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high
> and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
I not only put in the solid shelves but put in dividers as well. But my
stuff is designed to last a hundred years or so. Some folks call it
overengineering or overbuilt. I prefer to think of it as strong.
<beating chest and letting out tarzan yell>
Larry C wrote:
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school.
The above sentence is a complete design spec, if you think about it.
These book shelves will take a beating and are expected to "keep on
ticking".
Once they buy them, the school board won't have money to maintain
them.
Build them like a "brick out house".
60-70 years from now, some school superintendent will look at those
book shelves and say "Thank you".
Lew
"Luigi Zanasi" wrote:
> But I
would still fix the centre shelf.
I'd use 3/4" side panels with 3/16" deep dado and then install 3, #12
x 1, FH, coarse thread sheet metal screws bunged with 1/4" bungs to
hold shelves.
No cross grain glue joints, screws keep sides from bowing, dado
handles book load in shear.
It's a win/win situation.
Lew
On Oct 21, 4:11=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Leon wrote:
>
> >>> I have two 7-foot bookcases, neither with a middle fixed shelf. After=
15
> >>> years no signs of warping. =A0It helps to seal/paint all
> >>> sides. =A0The back is what gives it strength from (sideways) =A0racki=
ng
> >>> forces. =A0Use 3/4" for the shelves.
>
> >> Exactly, the back and the face frame that he plans on using will keep
> >> the sides from bowing. =A0The single dadoed shelf may not bow much if
> >> glued in place but what about all the other shelves? =A0My 25 year old
> >> book case still stands proud however with out a back, it has a face
> >> froame on front and back.
>
> > Not too long ago I repaired a big bookcase (over 6' square) on which th=
e
> > sides had bowed out due to the shelves being way overloaded with books.
> > It had a back, but that didn't stop the shelves from falling right off
> > their adjustable pins once the sides warped enough. =A0I don't know how=
, but
> > that's what happened--maybe the sides bowed out enough at the front, ma=
ybe
> > the back floats, whatever. =A0I fixed the center shelves in place and c=
ould
> > see the sides return to their former position as I drove home the screw=
s.
> > Said bookcase now lives in our garage where the beautiful oak veneer lo=
oks
> > a bit out of place, but it sure holds a buttload of woodworking stuff. =
=A0I
> > accept that with a back and face frame properly done it probably isn't
> > necessary to fix the center shelf. =A0But on the other hand unless ther=
e is
> > a pressing need to have all the shelves adjustable a center shelf glued
> > into a dado sure keeps those sides in place.
>
> The situation you are describing is entirely different, your case is 40"
> wider than the widest case the OP mentioned.
You're making an assumption or three. If the back is attached to each
side it does not affect how each side will bend. Only the height,
side construction and material, and the lateral load from the books
are factors.
The _shelves_ are another story. It is not possible to have a 6'
shelf made out of 3/4" ply carrying a load of books without
intermediate supports, attaching all of the shelves to the back (and
that's still going to sag like a bad mama jama), or having really
teeny tiny books.
R
Leon wrote:
>> I have two 7-foot bookcases, neither with a middle fixed shelf. After 15
>> years no signs of warping. It helps to seal/paint all
>> sides. The back is what gives it strength from (sideways) racking
>> forces. Use 3/4" for the shelves.
>
> Exactly, the back and the face frame that he plans on using will keep
> the sides from bowing. The single dadoed shelf may not bow much if
> glued in place but what about all the other shelves? My 25 year old
> book case still stands proud however with out a back, it has a face
> froame on front and back.
Not too long ago I repaired a big bookcase (over 6' square) on which the
sides had bowed out due to the shelves being way overloaded with books. It
had a back, but that didn't stop the shelves from falling right off their
adjustable pins once the sides warped enough. I don't know how, but that's
what happened--maybe the sides bowed out enough at the front, maybe the back
floats, whatever. I fixed the center shelves in place and could see the
sides return to their former position as I drove home the screws. Said
bookcase now lives in our garage where the beautiful oak veneer looks a bit
out of place, but it sure holds a buttload of woodworking stuff. I accept
that with a back and face frame properly done it probably isn't necessary to
fix the center shelf. But on the other hand unless there is a pressing need
to have all the shelves adjustable a center shelf glued into a dado sure
keeps those sides in place.
On Oct 21, 3:31=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Larry C wrote:
> > I am making a few bookcases for the local school.
>
> The above sentence is a complete design spec, if you think about it.
>
> These book shelves will take a beating and are expected to "keep on
> ticking".
>
> Once they buy them, the school board won't have money to maintain
> them.
>
> Build them like a "brick out house".
>
> 60-70 years from now, some school superintendent will look at those
> book shelves and say "Thank you".
Exactly. Not sure why people are pointing to bookcases they made for
themselves as if that is an indication of the abuse a bookcase would
take in a school environment. I don't suppose too many of the people
here are four feet tall and make it a habit of climbing up on a
bookshelf to get a book, or jamming in books, but these things
certainly will happen in a school. Since the fixed shelf doesn't
really have any impact on the usability of the bookcase and would take
an extry ten minutes to do (if you stopped and had a beer in the
middle), why _not_ do it?
R
On Oct 20, 2:17=A0pm, "Larry C" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. =A0They will be made ou=
t of
> 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2" popl=
ar
> frame on the front. =A0Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and=
the
> third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached=
,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? =A0If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
The odds that the bookcases in a school will be abused is high.
Someone will jam books onto a shelf which will tend to spread the
sides. I'd consider it cheap insurance to throw in a middle fixed
shelf. If you nail the back into that fixed middle shelf the bookcase
will be much stronger and probably last twice as long.
R
On Oct 20, 11:17=A0am, "Larry C" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. =A0They will be made ou=
t of
> 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2" popl=
ar
> frame on the front. =A0Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and=
the
> third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permanently attache=
d,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? =A0If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
I made some bookshelves about 35 years ago, three 6' high by 3' wide,
doug fir plywood and pine (I think?) edging -- not face frames. I did
fix the centre shelf (dado & glue), but the verticals eventually bowed
out and the shelf still came apart as I jammed books in.
So today I would use a sliding dovetail instead of a simple dado.
This is my experience. Now the face frame might change things. But I
would still fix the centre shelf.
YMMV
Luigi
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:17:22 -0400, "Larry C"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hello
>
>I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out of
>3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2" poplar
>frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and the
>third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
>My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
>dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
>matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
>Thanks
>
>Larry C
>
I have two 7-foot bookcases, neither with a middle fixed shelf. After
15 years no signs of warping. It helps to seal/paint all sides. The
back is what gives it strength from (sideways) racking forces. Use
3/4" for the shelves.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry C wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
>> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
>> poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet
>> high and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>>
>> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely
>> attached, dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time?
>> If it matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Larry C
>>
>
> You don't need to on those sizes, but if you like to over-engineer
> stuff, like me, go ahead and do it to "ease your pain." :-)
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
On the tall ones, I would. On the short one it's be a tossup.
Ed
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Oct 20, 2:17 pm, "Larry C" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out of
> 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar
> frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and the
> third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
The odds that the bookcases in a school will be abused is high.
Someone will jam books onto a shelf which will tend to spread the
sides. I'd consider it cheap insurance to throw in a middle fixed
shelf. If you nail the back into that fixed middle shelf the bookcase
will be much stronger and probably last twice as long.
R
Thanks for the input.
I think I will feel better with a middle shelf. It really should only take
me an extra 10 minutes a case when I am routing the rabbits.
Larry C
"Larry C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high
> and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry C
>
>
If you are attaching a face frame and glueing in the back you should not
have to worry about warp. You for sure want the back to be attached tightly
whether with glue in the dado or screws if you use a rabbet instead of a
dado.
I would definately attach at least a 3/4" wide strip of solid wood to the
shelves fronts and backs if they are going to be make out of plywood.
Larry C wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made
> out of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and
> 3/4 x 2" poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide
> by 5 feet high and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely
> attached, dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over
> time? If it matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry C
It sure makes them stronger, I've seen overloaded bookcases warp to the
point where the shelves start to drop off the pins. I'd rather build them
with a fixed center shelf than have to go back and repair them in a year or
two.
Larry -
Good Man.
I have over 4000 books in the house so book shelves are not unknown.
36" wide is my no level - anything below is just fine.
32" wide shelves if supported on the sides are just fine.
Supported - or on adjustable metal 'ladders' All of mine are adjustable,
set once or twice in each house. We tend to set books in a case and not
move them - but sometimes a collection grows out of a bounds and force
change. Sometimes a rascal book binder / publisher produces a silly cm taller...
I'd go metal adjustments - routed out and placed within the wood -
and the width and height is no issue. And fixing the center isn't needed.
Build a foot and it will be boxed in - strengthen the corners with real feet
blocks. That will make a strong box. Some of my shelves have front stiles
down each side - and across the top - picture frame the bare box but this
causes an issue with books hiding behind.
Schools are more or less regulated in RH.
Martin
Larry C wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet
> high and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely
> attached, dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over
> time? If it matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry C
>
>
"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>>> I have two 7-foot bookcases, neither with a middle fixed shelf. After 15
>>> years no signs of warping. It helps to seal/paint all
>>> sides. The back is what gives it strength from (sideways) racking
>>> forces. Use 3/4" for the shelves.
>>
>> Exactly, the back and the face frame that he plans on using will keep
>> the sides from bowing. The single dadoed shelf may not bow much if
>> glued in place but what about all the other shelves? My 25 year old
>> book case still stands proud however with out a back, it has a face
>> froame on front and back.
>
> Not too long ago I repaired a big bookcase (over 6' square) on which the
> sides had bowed out due to the shelves being way overloaded with books.
> It had a back, but that didn't stop the shelves from falling right off
> their adjustable pins once the sides warped enough. I don't know how, but
> that's what happened--maybe the sides bowed out enough at the front, maybe
> the back floats, whatever. I fixed the center shelves in place and could
> see the sides return to their former position as I drove home the screws.
> Said bookcase now lives in our garage where the beautiful oak veneer looks
> a bit out of place, but it sure holds a buttload of woodworking stuff. I
> accept that with a back and face frame properly done it probably isn't
> necessary to fix the center shelf. But on the other hand unless there is
> a pressing need to have all the shelves adjustable a center shelf glued
> into a dado sure keeps those sides in place.
The situation you are describing is entirely different, your case is 40"
wider than the widest case the OP mentioned.
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:17:22 -0400, "Larry C"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>
> I have two 7-foot bookcases, neither with a middle fixed shelf. After
> 15 years no signs of warping. It helps to seal/paint all sides. The
> back is what gives it strength from (sideways) racking forces. Use
> 3/4" for the shelves.
Exactly, the back and the face frame that he plans on using will keep the
sides from bowing. The single dadoed shelf may not bow much if glued in
place but what about all the other shelves? My 25 year old book case still
stands proud however with out a back, it has a face froame on front and
back.
Leon wrote:
> The situation you are describing is entirely different, your case is
> 40" wider than the widest case the OP mentioned.
It's *somewhat* different, but I don't think it invalidates the idea that if
you put enough weight on the shelves the sides are going to want to bow.
The case I described has a vertical divider in the middle BTW, so in effect
it is two 3' cases side by side, quite similar to what the OP mentioned.
There are several ways to prevent the sides from going barrel-shaped and I
have no philosophical attachment to any particular method, I'm just
reporting what I saw....
On Oct 22, 11:11=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Luigi Zanasi" wrote:
> > But I
>
> would still fix the centre shelf.
>
> I'd use 3/4" side panels with 3/16" deep dado and then install 3, #12
> x 1, FH, coarse thread sheet metal screws bunged with 1/4" bungs to
> hold shelves.
Burn an X in the bungs with a soldering iron. When people ask about
them say, "What? You never saw a wood screw before?" ;)
R
On Oct 20, 4:49=A0pm, "Larry C" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> On Oct 20, 2:17 pm, "Larry C" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello
>
> > I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out=
of
> > 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> > poplar
> > frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and =
the
> > third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> > My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attach=
ed,
> > dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
> > matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> The odds that the bookcases in a school will be abused is high.
> Someone will jam books onto a shelf which will tend to spread the
> sides. =A0I'd consider it cheap insurance to throw in a middle fixed
> shelf. =A0If you nail the back into that fixed middle shelf the bookcase
> will be much stronger and probably last twice as long.
>
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> I think I will feel better with a middle shelf. =A0It really should only =
take
> me an extra 10 minutes a case when I am routing the rabbits.
Hey now! If you do that I'm calling the ASPCA! However, if you're
routing the rabbets, I'll wish you good luck. ;)
Don't forget to have some little brass nameplates made up so people
who will know did the nice work.
R
Larry C wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet
> high and the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely
> attached, dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over
> time? If it matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry C
>
You don't need to on those sizes, but if you like to over-engineer
stuff, like me, go ahead and do it to "ease your pain." :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Larry C wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am making a few bookcases for the local school. They will be made out
> of 3/4 (18mm) birch ply with a 1/4" plywood back in a dado and 3/4 x 2"
> poplar
> frame on the front. Two of them will be 2 feet wide by 5 feet high and
> the third will be 32" wide by 6 feet high.
>
> My question is should I make the middle shelf in each permantely attached,
> dadoed to each side, so that the cases will not warp over time? If it
> matters I will use shelf pins for the shelves.
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry C
That's something I would do. It would help hold it all together. Normally
any bookshelf's I have built the shelves are permanent. Just make them at
different heights so accommodate different size books. The lower the
shelves the higher
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:11:12 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The situation you are describing is entirely different, your case is 40"
>wider than the widest case the OP mentioned.
It sounds like he's going to need some centre support, even if there
is a back that is fully attached. Given the same situation, I'd go
scope out some junk books, remove the cover spine and glue it to some
similarly thick centre supports.
Never tried anything like that before, but it would be an interesting
project to see how well one can hide centre supporting structures.
They would have to be really dull subjects so no one tries to pull any
out. I could just see it. Getting sued because someone pulled one of
my bookshelves over on themselves. :)
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Oct 21, 3:31 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Larry C wrote:
>> > I am making a few bookcases for the local school.
>>
>> The above sentence is a complete design spec, if you think about it.
>>
>> These book shelves will take a beating and are expected to "keep on
>> ticking".
>>
>> Once they buy them, the school board won't have money to maintain
>> them.
>>
>> Build them like a "brick out house".
>>
>> 60-70 years from now, some school superintendent will look at those
>> book shelves and say "Thank you".
>
>Exactly. Not sure why people are pointing to bookcases they made for
>themselves as if that is an indication of the abuse a bookcase would
>take in a school environment. I don't suppose too many of the people
>here are four feet tall and make it a habit of climbing up on a
>bookshelf to get a book, or jamming in books, but these things
>certainly will happen in a school. Since the fixed shelf doesn't
>really have any impact on the usability of the bookcase and would take
>an extry ten minutes to do (if you stopped and had a beer in the
>middle), why _not_ do it?
>
>R
...boy, you guys are alot faster than me! I've always made my
bookcases with a fixed center shelf...at least the longer ones. The
time it takes to dado and install the shelf, true, isn't that much,
but then you have to factor-in the extra piece in the faceframe and
all that goes with it...as an aside, I usually finish the case before
installing the back; it makes for better/easier spraying...shelves
always get at least an 1 1/2" hardwood strongback/face.
cg