Skil Digital Angle Finder: huge mistake!

"-MIKE-" wrote:
>
> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF

Looks like an over priced bevel gauge to me.

Trying to accurately split an angle with one is a lot tougher than
using a compass and a straight edge.

Lew

"-MIKE-" wrote

> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.

> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a studio
> which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>
> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles on
> obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner is 89
> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees the
> miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?
>
> I can only guess that the computer was programed to calculate the angle
> on the other side of the right angle, or between 90 and 180 degrees,
> instead the obtuse angle.
>
> This makes the devise useless in my book. Now before you go and say,
> “well, all you have to do it subtract the angle from 180 and blah, blah,
> blah,” I bought the thing so I wouldn’t have to do the math. I paid 60
> bucks so I wouldn’t have to do any math, not even half of it.
>
> Am I losing my mind here, or is this a POS?
>
> -MIKE-

Yes.

Max

burtwitlin wrote:
> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>
>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>
>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>
>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>> corner
>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>
>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>> degrees?
>>
>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>
>> 80 /2 = 40
>
> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.

He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the angle
finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut pieces will have be
as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus) desired.

> Try reading.

Try thinking.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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burtwitlin wrote:
> On Aug 7, 8:11 am, Rita and Neil Ward <[email protected]> wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> dadiOH wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
>>>>> on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner
>>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>>>> degrees?
>>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>> Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.
>> 180 - 91 = 89
>>
>> 89 /2 = 44.5- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math. Try
> reading.
No math to do: Supplementary Angles. And folks wonder why kids cannot
make change...

-MIKE- wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> Tom Veatch wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The wrong angle.
>>>>> In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap
>>>>> in my joint.
>>>> Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.
>>>>
>>>> You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on
>>>> one side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the
>>>> opposite side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you
>>>> use a left or right miter setting.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Veatch
>>>> Wichita, KS
>>>> USA
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm beginning to picture this, now.
>>>
>>> I still say they should program the chip so you have a choice of
>>> what angle you want displayed, kept side, cutoff side, left
>>> setting, right setting, whatever.
>>>
>>> Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set
>>> the miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?
>>
>> Praise be and hallelujah! At last...
>>
>
> I still contend that the little chip (which any computer programming
> freshman could do) should offer options for the user, depending on
> which way they want to measure the angle.
>
> My 12" CMS goes to almost 50 degrees in both directions, which enables
> me to handle many slightly obtuse (carpenter was hungover) corner trim
> pieces.

Carpenter didn't have one of those handy gizmos like you do (or, he hocked
his square); rocker was hungover :)

--

dadiOH
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On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:38:00 -0600, Chris Friesen
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Curious where you got that definition. I would use a definition of

Kinda made it up to so that it defines the setting on the miter gauge
necessary to cut the angle, which, as you stated, is the complement of
"1/2 the included angle" = 90 - 1/2 the included angle.

I guess we need to define exactly what we are talking about when we
say "miter angle". The "miter angle = 1/2 the included angle"
definition gives the angle of the cut measured from the "long axis" of
the board which is essentially useless when setting up to make the
cut. The "miter angle" that has to be set on the saw or miter gauge is
measured off the "short axis" of the cut.

Set the miter gauge (miter angle?) to:

0° for a square cut (180° included angle => 90° - 180°/2 = 90°)
22.5° for an octagon (135° included angle => 90° - 135°/2 = 22.5°),
30° for a hexagon (120° included angle = 90° - 120°/2 = 30°)
45° for a rectangle (90° included angle => 90° - 90°/2 = 45°)

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:27:14 -0500, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>The wrong angle.
>>In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in my
>>joint.
>
>Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.
>
>You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on one
>side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the opposite
>side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you use a left or
>right miter setting.
>
>Tom Veatch
>Wichita, KS
>USA
>

Please ignore, major brain fart! Most days I understand that an angled
cut across a straight member produces supplementary angles instead of
complements. Only excuse I can offer is that maybe I was thinking of
compound mitering crown molding where sometimes you keep the piece on
the right and other times the piece on the left.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Aug 7, 7:48=A0am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>
> > Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> > I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
> > studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>
> > It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
> > on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. =A0If the angle of the corner
> > is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
> > But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
> > displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it=92s 100 degrees th=
e
> > miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?
>
> 180 - 100 =3D 80
>
> 80 /2 =3D 40
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math. Try
reading.

-MIKE- wrote:
> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>
>
> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>
> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
> on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner
> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees the
> miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?

180 - 100 = 80

80 /2 = 40


--

dadiOH
____________________________

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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

dadiOH wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>
>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>
>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
>>> on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner
>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>
>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>> degrees?
>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>
>> 80 /2 = 40
>
> Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.
>
180 - 91 = 89

89 /2 = 44.5

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>>>>>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>>>>>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>>>
>>>> Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion
>>>> does...tells you to set as you said.
>>>
>>> No, it's not. As described in the original post, that is what the
>>> gizmo under discussion does _for obtuse angles only_; for acute
>>> angles, it reads the
>>> actual angle, not the necessary gauge setting to cut that angle. [*]
>>
>> As you quote, if the angle is 89 the reading is 44.5...that's an
>> acute angle and it tells you to set the gauge at 44.5. Seems right
>> to me.
>
> I guess that's why we disagree: because you don't realize that while
> that *seems* right to you, it's *not*.
>
> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you set
> the miter
> gauge at? Zero.

Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.
___________

> That's because miter gauges do not indicate the actual angle being
> cut; they
> indicate the angle's offset from 90 degrees. So to cut an angle of
> 44.5
> degrees, you set the gauge at (90 - 44.5) = 45.5 degrees.

Right

> In any event, it should be clear that if the device reads 44.5 for
> *both* 89-degree and 91-degree corners, then one or the other of
> those readings *must* be wrong.

Nope, both are correct.

Let's exaggerate the corners a bit...make one 100 degrees, the other 80. In
both cases the gizmo will tell one to set the gauge at 10 degrees, right?
OK, lets set the gauge there and cut a piece of wood. We now have two
pieces of wood and each piece has one corner that is 10 degrees and another
corner that is 80 degrees, right? So where's the problem?
_________

>>> And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of
>>> it, you must remember (a) that whether the reading represents the
>>> gauge setting or the actual miter angle depends on whether the
>>> corner angle is acute or
>>> obtuse, *and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and
>>> much less error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a
>>> protractor and do the calculations.
>>
>> There is hope for MIKE, none for you... :(
>
> Needless to say, I disagree. It's clear that you have a fundamental
> misunderstanding of the geometry involved.

Well, I aced Euclidean geometry, did less well at analytical geometry (in my
defense, the prof was a Yugoslav and *very* hard to understand).

>> ___________
>>
>>> [* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner
>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the
>>> angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays
>>> 44.5 degrees. ..."]
>
> Do you maintain that both of these readings are correct?

Yes. Setting the miter gauge at those settings will give a correct cut in
each case, you just have to orient wood to blade properly; i.e., swing the
gauge clockwise or counter-clockwise to get what you want. That or use the
offcut for one corner. Try drawing it out on paper.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>
>>
>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>
>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>
>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
>> on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner
>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>
>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>> degrees?
>
> 180 - 100 = 80
>
> 80 /2 = 40

Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

-MIKE- wrote:
> StephenM wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> I'll support you.
>>
>> That seems like bug to me. Sure, you could to the math... but it
>> forces the user to do:
>>
>> If angle >90 then
>> do math
>> else
>> take miter angle at face value
>>
>> It's not just the math but the "do I have to do the math?" If you
>> loose focus, you can take the wrong path.
>>
>> It's like reading a tape measure from the 1" or the 10" mark and then
>> subtracting the offset. Sure it's easy, but I have a wall in my
>> kitchen which is out of square by one inch to prove that "easy" is
>> not the same thing as "idiot-proof"
>>
>> If you have 44.5 staring you in the face, it's really easy to set
>> your miter angle to that number.
>>
>> Do some trim carpenters always work from acute angles? It sure
>> seems like a design flaw to me.
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>
> Thank you for actually reading my post. :-)
>
> Yes, I guess it's not a brainfart on my part, but an actual
> design/programming flaw.
> Seems it would be pretty simple to program the chip with the ability
> to select acute/obtuse miter angle calculation.

OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
you propose setting that up?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Mike,

I'll support you.

That seems like bug to me. Sure, you could to the math... but it forces the
user to do:

If angle >90 then
do math
else
take miter angle at face value

It's not just the math but the "do I have to do the math?" If you loose
focus, you can take the wrong path.

It's like reading a tape measure from the 1" or the 10" mark and then
subtracting the offset. Sure it's easy, but I have a wall in my kitchen
which is out of square by one inch to prove that "easy" is not the same
thing as "idiot-proof"

If you have 44.5 staring you in the face, it's really easy to set your miter
angle to that number.

Do some trim carpenters always work from acute angles? It sure seems like a
design flaw to me.

-Steve







"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>
>
> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a studio
> which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>
> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles on
> obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner is 89
> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees the
> miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?
>
> I can only guess that the computer was programed to calculate the angle
> on the other side of the right angle, or between 90 and 180 degrees,
> instead the obtuse angle.
>
> This makes the devise useless in my book. Now before you go and say,
> “well, all you have to do it subtract the angle from 180 and blah, blah,
> blah,” I bought the thing so I wouldn’t have to do the math. I paid 60
> bucks so I wouldn’t have to do any math, not even half of it.
>
> Am I losing my mind here, or is this a POS?
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Rita and Neil Ward wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>
>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>
>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of
>>>> the corner is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>
>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading
>>>> also displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100
>>>> degrees the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this
>>>> be 50 degrees?
>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>
>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>
>> Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.
>>
> 180 - 91 = 89
>
> 89 /2 = 44.5

As Wally from the Dilbert comic strip said when reviewing the Human
Resources phamplet on employee benefits: "It's been a long time since I had
to calculate the cosign of anything..."

-MIKE- wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> burtwitlin wrote:
>>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>>> corner
>>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading
>>>>> also displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100
>>>>> degrees the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this
>>>>> be 50 degrees?
>>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>>
>>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.
>>
>> He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the
>> angle finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut
>> pieces will have be as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus)
>> desired.
>>> Try reading.
>>
>> Try thinking.
>>
>
> The point is, if you sell a tool that is supposed to, and purported
> to, do the "thinking" for you, it should do all the thinking for you
> and not just half of it.

It *is* thinking for you...it is telling you where to set the gauge to get
the angle you want.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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-MIKE- wrote:
> Tom Veatch wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The wrong angle.
>>> In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in
>>> my joint.
>>
>> Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.
>>
>> You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on one
>> side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the
>> opposite side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you
>> use a left or right miter setting.
>>
>> Tom Veatch
>> Wichita, KS
>> USA
>>
>
>
> Ok, I'm beginning to picture this, now.
>
> I still say they should program the chip so you have a choice of what
> angle you want displayed, kept side, cutoff side, left setting, right
> setting, whatever.
>
> Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
> miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?

Praise be and hallelujah! At last...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

dadiOH wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>
>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>
>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>> corner is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>
>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>> degrees?
>>
>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>
>> 80 /2 = 40
>
> Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.

Upon sober reflection and more coffee, I've changed my mind. Here's why...

My radial saw can cut to 60 degrees right or left, ditto the table saw miter
gauge, so either could be set directly to miter an obtuse angle up to 120
degrees. But what about one of 140 degrees? One needs a 70 degree angle,
no place to set that.

One would set the saw/gauge at 20 degrees and cut merrily away. One angle
on both cut pieces will have be 20 degrees, the other 70 degrees. Same
thing in the OP's original post with 100 degrees as the example...the angle
finder says to set the cut at 40 degrees, angle is correct as the *other*
cut corner will have the needed 50 degrees.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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Tom Veatch wrote:

> The "miter angle" is the complement of 1/2 the included angle.

Curious where you got that definition. I would use a definition of
"half the included angle", and it looks like Taunton agrees with me:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesAllAbout.aspx?id=2974

From that page: "If the frame members intersect at 120°, the miter
angle would be 60°."

Of course, the setting on the saw is the complement of that.

Chris

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> burtwitlin wrote:
>>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>
>>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>
>>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>
>>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>>> corner
>>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>
>>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading
>>>>> also displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100
>>>>> degrees the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this
>>>>> be 50 degrees?
>
> Depends on whether you're expecting the thing to read the actual
> angle, or the
> required setting on a TS, RAS, or CMS to make the correct cut. If the
> former,
> it's correct for acute angles and wrong for obtuse angles; if the
> latter, it's
> correct for obtuse angles and wrong for acute angles.
>
> Either way, it's right only half the time, which in my book makes it
> worse
> than useless, because you have to remember which half of the time
> it's right,
> and in which way it's right -- thus compounding the possibility of
> making a
> mistake. *Much* easier to measure the angle with a 180-degree
> protractor and
> do the math yourself, than to try to use this POS -- which, again,
> means "worse than useless", as using the tool makes the job *harder*
> than not using
> it.

Oh, it isn't all that hard. It is always giving the correct setting to cut
the angle, doesn't matter whether it is a miter for an acute or obtuse
angle.

One *does* have to remember which of the two resultant angles one wants and
plan accordingly.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Aug 7, 8:11=A0am, Rita and Neil Ward <[email protected]> wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
> > dadiOH wrote:
> >> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>
> >>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> >>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
> >>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>
> >>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles
> >>> on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. =A0If the angle of the corner
> >>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
> >>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
> >>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it=92s 100 degrees
> >>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
> >>> degrees?
> >> 180 - 100 =3D 80
>
> >> 80 /2 =3D 40
>
> > Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.
>
> 180 - 91 =3D 89
>
> 89 /2 =3D 44.5- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math. Try
reading.

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you
>>>>> set the miter gauge at? Zero.
>>>>
>>>> Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.
>>
>> Wait...I answered too quickly.
>>
>> On my table saw miter gauge I would set it at 90 degrees. On my
>> radial arm saw, at 0 degrees.
>
> What table saw miter gauge is *that*??

The one that came with this Grizzly saw several years ago when it was right
tilt and tube rails.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1023SL/images/2

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>burtwitlin wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>
>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>
>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>
>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>> corner
>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>
>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>>> degrees?

Depends on whether you're expecting the thing to read the actual angle, or the
required setting on a TS, RAS, or CMS to make the correct cut. If the former,
it's correct for acute angles and wrong for obtuse angles; if the latter, it's
correct for obtuse angles and wrong for acute angles.

Either way, it's right only half the time, which in my book makes it worse
than useless, because you have to remember which half of the time it's right,
and in which way it's right -- thus compounding the possibility of making a
mistake. *Much* easier to measure the angle with a 180-degree protractor and
do the math yourself, than to try to use this POS -- which, again, means
"worse than useless", as using the tool makes the job *harder* than not using
it.
>>>
>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>
>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>
>> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.
>
>He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the angle
>finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut pieces will have be
>as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus) desired.

Ummm..... IOW, do the math, which he already said he doesn't want to do. And,
as noted above, he would have to remember which way (obtuse vs. acute) the
device reads the actual miter gauge setting, and which way it reads (90 -
setting).

Worse than useless.
>
>> Try reading.
>
>Try thinking.
>
Maybe you should give it a try, too. Setting the gauge at the indicated angle
works just fine for obtuse angles, but fails for acute ones. Mike's right,
this tool's a POS.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>
> Looks like an over priced bevel gauge to me.
>
> Trying to accurately split an angle with one is a lot tougher than
> using a compass and a straight edge.
>
> Lew
>

Actually, it was very easy/fast to use and extremely accurate on the
acute angles.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

StephenM wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I'll support you.
>
> That seems like bug to me. Sure, you could to the math... but it forces the
> user to do:
>
> If angle >90 then
> do math
> else
> take miter angle at face value
>
> It's not just the math but the "do I have to do the math?" If you loose
> focus, you can take the wrong path.
>
> It's like reading a tape measure from the 1" or the 10" mark and then
> subtracting the offset. Sure it's easy, but I have a wall in my kitchen
> which is out of square by one inch to prove that "easy" is not the same
> thing as "idiot-proof"
>
> If you have 44.5 staring you in the face, it's really easy to set your miter
> angle to that number.
>
> Do some trim carpenters always work from acute angles? It sure seems like a
> design flaw to me.
>
> -Steve
>

Thank you for actually reading my post. :-)

Yes, I guess it's not a brainfart on my part, but an actual
design/programming flaw.
Seems it would be pretty simple to program the chip with the ability to
select acute/obtuse miter angle calculation.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Doug Miller wrote:
> Ummm..... IOW, do the math, which he already said he doesn't want to do. And,
> as noted above, he would have to remember which way (obtuse vs. acute) the
> device reads the actual miter gauge setting, and which way it reads (90 -
> setting).
>

I don't mind doing the math (which I ended up doing, anyway). I just
don't want to pay for a tool that is supposed to do the math, and have
to do the math, anyway.


> Worse than useless.
>>> Try reading.
>> Try thinking.
>>
> Maybe you should give it a try, too. Setting the gauge at the indicated angle
> works just fine for obtuse angles, but fails for acute ones. Mike's right,
> this tool's a POS.

Just FYI, it's works for acute and not for obtuse.
And yes, POS. :-)

Thanks, Doug.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> StephenM wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> I'll support you.
>>
>> That seems like bug to me. Sure, you could to the math... but it forces
>> the user to do:
>>
>> If angle >90 then
>> do math
>> else
>> take miter angle at face value
>>
>> It's not just the math but the "do I have to do the math?" If you loose
>> focus, you can take the wrong path.
>>
>> It's like reading a tape measure from the 1" or the 10" mark and then
>> subtracting the offset. Sure it's easy, but I have a wall in my kitchen
>> which is out of square by one inch to prove that "easy" is not the same
>> thing as "idiot-proof"
>>
>> If you have 44.5 staring you in the face, it's really easy to set your
>> miter angle to that number.
>>
>> Do some trim carpenters always work from acute angles? It sure seems
>> like a design flaw to me.
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>
> Thank you for actually reading my post. :-)
>
> Yes, I guess it's not a brainfart on my part, but an actual
> design/programming flaw.
> Seems it would be pretty simple to program the chip with the ability to
> select acute/obtuse miter angle calculation.

Did you try turning the gauge upside down to measure?

dadiOH wrote:
> burtwitlin wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>> corner
>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>>> degrees?
>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>
>>> 80 /2 = 40
>> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.
>
> He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the angle
> finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut pieces will have be
> as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus) desired.
>
>> Try reading.
>
> Try thinking.
>

The point is, if you sell a tool that is supposed to, and purported to,
do the "thinking" for you, it should do all the thinking for you and not
just half of it.

The programmed this thing to calculate the exception and not the rule.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

dadiOH wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>
>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>
>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>> corner is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>
>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>>>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees
>>>> the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50
>>>> degrees?
>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>
>>> 80 /2 = 40
>> Meant to add, I'd take the thing back.
>
> Upon sober reflection and more coffee, I've changed my mind. Here's why...
>
> My radial saw can cut to 60 degrees right or left, ditto the table saw miter
> gauge, so either could be set directly to miter an obtuse angle up to 120
> degrees. But what about one of 140 degrees? One needs a 70 degree angle,
> no place to set that.
>
> One would set the saw/gauge at 20 degrees and cut merrily away. One angle
> on both cut pieces will have be 20 degrees, the other 70 degrees. Same
> thing in the OP's original post with 100 degrees as the example...the angle
> finder says to set the cut at 40 degrees, angle is correct as the *other*
> cut corner will have the needed 50 degrees.
>

Which gives you the left piece of crown molding protruding about an inch
past the right, no?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

>> Yes, I guess it's not a brainfart on my part, but an actual
>> design/programming flaw.
>> Seems it would be pretty simple to program the chip with the ability
>> to select acute/obtuse miter angle calculation.
>
> Did you try turning the gauge upside down to measure?
>

I stood on the ceiling for a while, but blacked out from the blood
rushing to my head. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <WP%[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>-MIKE- wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> burtwitlin wrote:
>>>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>>>> corner
>>>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading
>>>>>> also displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100
>>>>>> degrees the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this
>>>>>> be 50 degrees?
>>>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>>>
>>>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>>> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.
>>>
>>> He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the
>>> angle finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut
>>> pieces will have be as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus)
>>> desired.
>>>> Try reading.
>>>
>>> Try thinking.
>>>
>>
>> The point is, if you sell a tool that is supposed to, and purported
>> to, do the "thinking" for you, it should do all the thinking for you
>> and not just half of it.
>
>It *is* thinking for you...it is telling you where to set the gauge to get
>the angle you want.
>
But only half the time.

In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
>you propose setting that up?

That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.

dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> burtwitlin wrote:
>>>> On Aug 7, 7:48 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> Ok, I may be having a huge brainfart on this, so you tell me.
>>>>>> Skil Digital Angle Finder - Model #2100DAF
>>>>>> I bought this thing and used it this week for some trim work at a
>>>>>> studio which has lots of non-standard wall angles.
>>>>>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter
>>>>>> angles on obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the
>>>>>> corner
>>>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>>>>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading
>>>>>> also displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100
>>>>>> degrees the miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this
>>>>>> be 50 degrees?
>>>>> 180 - 100 = 80
>>>>>
>>>>> 80 /2 = 40
>>>> hey BO - did you not get that he didn't want to do the math.
>>> He doesn't have to. One would set the saw/gauge at whatever the
>>> angle finder says and cut merrily away. One angle on both cut
>>> pieces will have be as desired, the other 90 degrees - (minus)
>>> desired.
>>>> Try reading.
>>> Try thinking.
>>>
>> The point is, if you sell a tool that is supposed to, and purported
>> to, do the "thinking" for you, it should do all the thinking for you
>> and not just half of it.
>
> It *is* thinking for you...it is telling you where to set the gauge to get
> the angle you want.
>

The wrong angle.
In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in my
joint.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> StephenM wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'll support you.
>>>
>>> That seems like bug to me. Sure, you could to the math... but it
>>> forces the user to do:
>>>
>>> If angle >90 then
>>> do math
>>> else
>>> take miter angle at face value
>>>
>>> It's not just the math but the "do I have to do the math?" If you
>>> loose focus, you can take the wrong path.
>>>
>>> It's like reading a tape measure from the 1" or the 10" mark and then
>>> subtracting the offset. Sure it's easy, but I have a wall in my
>>> kitchen which is out of square by one inch to prove that "easy" is
>>> not the same thing as "idiot-proof"
>>>
>>> If you have 44.5 staring you in the face, it's really easy to set
>>> your miter angle to that number.
>>>
>>> Do some trim carpenters always work from acute angles? It sure
>>> seems like a design flaw to me.
>>>
>>> -Steve
>>>
>> Thank you for actually reading my post. :-)
>>
>> Yes, I guess it's not a brainfart on my part, but an actual
>> design/programming flaw.
>> Seems it would be pretty simple to program the chip with the ability
>> to select acute/obtuse miter angle calculation.
>
> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
> you propose setting that up?
>

Since the same companies make miter saws, I would assume they know the
limits of the miter adjustments on those saws and could program the chip
to readout different options. Since most SCM's don't go much beyond 135
degrees, another push of the miter button could show that other angle.
My point is that it should default to account for the rule and not the
exception.

Product development meeting.
"Gee our saw doesn't slide over to nearly 180 degrees, maybe we should
account for that in the product we are selling as an accessory to the
saw."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
>> you propose setting that up?
>
> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>

You know what his reply is, now.
"See, you had to do the math, anyway."

Like I said, the device should default to the rule, not the exception.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dadiOH wrote:
>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How
>> do you propose setting that up?

Inclusive angle? Or exclusive?

> Since the same companies make miter saws, I would assume they know the
> limits of the miter adjustments on those saws and could program the chip
> to readout different options. Since most SCM's don't go much beyond 135
> degrees, another push of the miter button could show that other angle.
> My point is that it should default to account for the rule and not the
> exception.
>
> Product development meeting.
> "Gee our saw doesn't slide over to nearly 180 degrees, maybe we should
> account for that in the product we are selling as an accessory to the
> saw."

Pardon my asking. Can't you just dimension the angle in SketchUp?

In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>>> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
>>> you propose setting that up?
>>
>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>
>
>You know what his reply is, now.
>"See, you had to do the math, anyway."
>
>Like I said, the device should default to the rule, not the exception.
>

Oh, I agree entirely. Like I said earlier, it's worse than useless, because
using it is more effort than not using it. So why bother?

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>>>> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How do
>>>> you propose setting that up?
>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>>
>> You know what his reply is, now.
>> "See, you had to do the math, anyway."
>>
>> Like I said, the device should default to the rule, not the exception.
>>
>
> Oh, I agree entirely. Like I said earlier, it's worse than useless, because
> using it is more effort than not using it. So why bother?


pfft!

"using it is more effort than not using it"

That's funny.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Tom Veatch wrote:
>> It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles on
>> obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner is 89
>> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>>
>> But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>> displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees the
>> miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?
>
> The "miter angle" is the complement of 1/2 the included angle. For
> example, the "miter angle" to join two boards end to end in a straight
> line (180 included angle) is zero, a square cut: 90 - 1/2 (180) = 0
>
> If the two walls make an angle of 89 degrees to each other, the miter
> angle is 90 - 1/2 (89) = 90 - 44.5 = 45.5
>
> if the two walls make an angle of 91 degrees to each other, the miter
> angle is 90 - 1/2 (91) = 90 - 45.5 = 44.5.
>
> if the two walls make an angle of 100 degrees to each other, the miter
> angle is 90 - 1/2 (100) = 90 - 50 = 40.
>
> Looks to me like the device is working fine for obtuse angles and is
> giving the complement of the miter angle for acute angles.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
>

Ok Tom, you sound more informed on this matter than the senior tech
support guy at Skil/Bosch. I'm beginning to understand more on the
subject. I've done this for years, but have usually marked my angles,
instead of measuring them.

In your first example, however, if I have corner and I cut two pieces
with 45.5 degree angles on them, I'll have a corner at 91 degrees, no?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> The wrong angle.
>> In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in my
>> joint.
>
> Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.
>
> You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on one
> side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the opposite
> side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you use a left or
> right miter setting.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
>


Ok, I'm beginning to picture this, now.

I still say they should program the chip so you have a choice of what
angle you want displayed, kept side, cutoff side, left setting, right
setting, whatever.

Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I still say they should program the chip so you have a choice of what
> angle you want displayed, kept side, cutoff side, left setting, right
> setting, whatever.

That would have to cost extra.

> Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
> miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?

For SCMS miters, what you really want is a modulo -45 display, not the
simplistic modulo 90 and half angle. Dunno why you would want such a thing
anyway. The vernier scale on my CMS is so faint I can't read it.

In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE-
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you want to
>>>>> cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75 degree cut. How
> do
>>>>> you propose setting that up?
>>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>>>
>>> You know what his reply is, now.
>>> "See, you had to do the math, anyway."
>>>
>>> Like I said, the device should default to the rule, not the exception.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I agree entirely. Like I said earlier, it's worse than useless, because
>> using it is more effort than not using it. So why bother?
>
>
>pfft!
>
>"using it is more effort than not using it"
>
> That's funny.
>
Why? The entire point of using tools is to make tasks easier. If a tool fails
to save effort, such that using it to perform a task requires as much effort
as doing that task manually, the tool is useless. If it requires more effort,
it's worse than useless. What's amusing about that?

In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>In your first example, however, if I have corner and I cut two pieces
>with 45.5 degree angles on them, I'll have a corner at 91 degrees, no?

That's correct -- but note that miter gauges on saws don't indicate the actual
cut angle, they indicate (90 degrees minus cut angle). For example, when the
miter gauge is set at zero, it makes a square (90 degree) cut; set it at 30
degrees, and it cuts an angle of 60; and so on. So to cut those 45.5-degree
angles, you would set the miter gauge at 44.5 degrees.

In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
>miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?

Because to cut an angle of 75 degrees, you set the gauge on the saw to 15.

Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Oh, I agree entirely. Like I said earlier, it's worse than useless, because
>>> using it is more effort than not using it. So why bother?
>>
>> pfft!
>>
>> "using it is more effort than not using it"
>>
>> That's funny.
>>
> Why? The entire point of using tools is to make tasks easier. If a tool fails
> to save effort, such that using it to perform a task requires as much effort
> as doing that task manually, the tool is useless. If it requires more effort,
> it's worse than useless. What's amusing about that?


Doug, I agree. It's a funny saying. It's mine, now. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
>> miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?
>
> Because to cut an angle of 75 degrees, you set the gauge on the saw to 15.

Right, that's why it would display that on the obtuse side.
I'm thinking it's correct, but could still use some options for the
display.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>>
>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>
>Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion does...tells you
>to set as you said.

No, it's not. As described in the original post, that is what the gizmo under
discussion does _for obtuse angles only_; for acute angles, it reads the
actual angle, not the necessary gauge setting to cut that angle. [*]

And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of it, you must
remember (a) that whether the reading represents the gauge setting or the
actual miter angle depends on whether the corner angle is acute or obtuse,
*and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and much less
error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a protractor and do the
calculations.

[* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner is 89
degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the angle of the
corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays 44.5 degrees. ..."]

dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> Tom Veatch wrote:
>>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The wrong angle.
>>>> In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in
>>>> my joint.
>>> Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.
>>>
>>> You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on one
>>> side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the
>>> opposite side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you
>>> use a left or right miter setting.
>>>
>>> Tom Veatch
>>> Wichita, KS
>>> USA
>>>
>>
>> Ok, I'm beginning to picture this, now.
>>
>> I still say they should program the chip so you have a choice of what
>> angle you want displayed, kept side, cutoff side, left setting, right
>> setting, whatever.
>>
>> Like dadiOH wrote, if you have a 150 degree corner, you can't set the
>> miter saw to 75 degrees, so why would they display that?
>
> Praise be and hallelujah! At last...
>

I still contend that the little chip (which any computer programming
freshman could do) should offer options for the user, depending on which
way they want to measure the angle.

My 12" CMS goes to almost 50 degrees in both directions, which enables
me to handle many slightly obtuse (carpenter was hungover) corner trim
pieces.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Doug Miller wrote:
> And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of it, you must
> remember (a) that whether the reading represents the gauge setting or the
> actual miter angle depends on whether the corner angle is acute or obtuse,
> *and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and much less
> error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a protractor and do the
> calculations.
>
> [* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner is 89
> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the angle of the
> corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays 44.5 degrees. ..."]


And I think most of our CMS's can account for at least a few degrees
obtuse.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 19:47:52 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> In your first example, however, if I have corner and I cut two pieces
>> with 45.5 degree angles on them, I'll have a corner at 91 degrees, no?
>
> I think the confusion is in the definition of "miter angle". If the
> 45.5° angle is measured from the "long side" of the board to the cut
> line, then yes, your corner will be at 91°. But the setting on the
> saw/miter gauge to make that cut is the complement of that angle. In
> other words, the "miter angle" you set on the saw/miter gauge is
> measured off the square 90° cut. So to get a 90° square cut, the
> saw/miter gauge is set to 0° (which to me is a "miter angle" of 0°)
>
> To get the 45.5° angle on the cut piece, the "miter angle" setting on
> the saw or gauge would be 90-45.5 = 44.5
>
> I may be swimming against the stream on that definition, but the
> "miter angle" definition that is most meaningful to the guy setting up
> the cut is the "angle you have to set on the miter gauge" to get the
> angle needed on the workpiece.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
>

Cool. My CMS goes 0-48 in each direction (with a nudge, I can get about
51).
I saw one, once, that had another scale 90-180 underneath, which I
thought was way cool.

So with most not-on-purpose out-of-square corners, I can handle just
cutting the corner angle in half.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>>>>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>>>>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>>>>
>>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>>
>>> Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion
>>> does...tells you to set as you said.
>>
>> No, it's not. As described in the original post, that is what the
>> gizmo under discussion does _for obtuse angles only_; for acute
>> angles, it reads the
>> actual angle, not the necessary gauge setting to cut that angle. [*]
>
>As you quote, if the angle is 89 the reading is 44.5...that's an acute angle
>and it tells you to set the gauge at 44.5. Seems right to me.

I guess that's why we disagree: because you don't realize that while that
*seems* right to you, it's *not*.

Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you set the miter
gauge at? Zero.

That's because miter gauges do not indicate the actual angle being cut; they
indicate the angle's offset from 90 degrees. So to cut an angle of 44.5
degrees, you set the gauge at (90 - 44.5) = 45.5 degrees.

In any event, it should be clear that if the device reads 44.5 for *both*
89-degree and 91-degree corners, then one or the other of those readings
*must* be wrong.
>_________
>
>> And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of it, you must
>> remember (a) that whether the reading represents the gauge setting or the
>> actual miter angle depends on whether the corner angle is acute or
>> obtuse, *and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and much less
>> error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a protractor and do the
>> calculations.
>
>There is hope for MIKE, none for you... :(

Needless to say, I disagree. It's clear that you have a fundamental
misunderstanding of the geometry involved.
>___________
>
>> [* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner is 89
>> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the angle of the
>> corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays 44.5 degrees. ..."]

Do you maintain that both of these readings are correct?

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>>>>>>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>>>>>>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion
>>>>> does...tells you to set as you said.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not. As described in the original post, that is what the
>>>> gizmo under discussion does _for obtuse angles only_; for acute
>>>> angles, it reads the
>>>> actual angle, not the necessary gauge setting to cut that angle. [*]
>>>
>>> As you quote, if the angle is 89 the reading is 44.5...that's an
>>> acute angle and it tells you to set the gauge at 44.5. Seems right
>>> to me.
>>
>> I guess that's why we disagree: because you don't realize that while
>> that *seems* right to you, it's *not*.
>>
>> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you set the miter
>> gauge at? Zero.
>
>Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.

Yes...... but there's still something you're missing.

Perhaps this will help: suppose you want to cut a 60-degree angle. What do you
set the miter gauge at?

>___________
>
>> That's because miter gauges do not indicate the actual angle being cut; they
>> indicate the angle's offset from 90 degrees. So to cut an angle of 44.5
>> degrees, you set the gauge at (90 - 44.5) = 45.5 degrees.
>
>Right
>
>> In any event, it should be clear that if the device reads 44.5 for
>> *both* 89-degree and 91-degree corners, then one or the other of
>> those readings *must* be wrong.
>
>Nope, both are correct.

Impossible. Think about it: how could you fit both an 89-degree outside
corner, *and* a 91-degree outside corner, with the same pieces???
>
>Let's exaggerate the corners a bit...make one 100 degrees, the other 80. In
>both cases the gizmo will tell one to set the gauge at 10 degrees, right?

Wrong. It would read 40. Refer to the description from the OP quoted below.

>OK, lets set the gauge there and cut a piece of wood. We now have two
>pieces of wood and each piece has one corner that is 10 degrees and another
>corner that is 80 degrees, right?

Wrong. Each piece has one corner that's *100* degrees and one corner that's 80
degrees (and, obviously, two corners 90 degrees each, on the ends away from
the cut). And when you flip one over and put the miters together so as to fit
an outside corner, they _will not_ fit a 100-degree corner.

I leave it to you to determine what angle outside corner they _will_ fit.

> So where's the problem?

ISTM that you misunderstand the purpose of the device. As described by the OP,
it appears to be *intended* to display the miter angles necessary to fit two
pieces of wood around an outside corner; you certainly won't achieve that in
the manner you describe.


>_________
>
>>>> And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of
>>>> it, you must remember (a) that whether the reading represents the
>>>> gauge setting or the actual miter angle depends on whether the
>>>> corner angle is acute or
>>>> obtuse, *and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and
>>>> much less error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a
>>>> protractor and do the calculations.
>>>
>>> There is hope for MIKE, none for you... :(
>>
>> Needless to say, I disagree. It's clear that you have a fundamental
>> misunderstanding of the geometry involved.
>
>Well, I aced Euclidean geometry, did less well at analytical geometry (in my
>defense, the prof was a Yugoslav and *very* hard to understand).

That evidently was a long time in the past.
>
>>> ___________
>>>
>>>> [* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner
>>>> is 89 degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the
>>>> angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays
>>>> 44.5 degrees. ..."]
>>
>> Do you maintain that both of these readings are correct?
>
>Yes. Setting the miter gauge at those settings will give a correct cut in
>each case, you just have to orient wood to blade properly; i.e., swing the
>gauge clockwise or counter-clockwise to get what you want. That or use the
>offcut for one corner. Try drawing it out on paper.

I have an alternative suggestion for you: construct an object with 80-degree
and 100-degree outside corners, cut four pieces of wood according to your own
descriptions, and then try fitting them around those outside corners. That
should be a more than ample demonstration to you of exactly where your
misunderstanding lies.

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you set
>>>> the miter gauge at? Zero.
>>>
>>> Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.
>
>Wait...I answered too quickly.
>
>On my table saw miter gauge I would set it at 90 degrees. On my radial arm
>saw, at 0 degrees.

What table saw miter gauge is *that*??

Every table saw miter gauge I have ever seen reads *zero* for a perpendicular
crosscut. What do you have, that reads 90?
>____________
>
>> Yes...... but there's still something you're missing.
>>
>> Perhaps this will help: suppose you want to cut a 60-degree angle.
>> What do you
>> set the miter gauge at?
>
>At 60 degrees on my table saw gauge.

Again: what gauge are you using???

> That gets me a boards with 60 degree
>pointy ends measured from the board edge.

It wouldn't get you that on my Incra 3000. Nor on the Incra 1000 that it
replaced. Nor on the stock miter gauges that came with my current table saw,
or either of my two previous table saws, or my currrent band saw, or the
previous band saw. Nor on any other table saw miter gauge that I have ever
seen.

>Haven't cut anything except
>straight cuts on the RAS for a decade or more.
>___________
>
>>>> That's because miter gauges do not indicate the actual angle being
>>>> cut; they indicate the angle's offset from 90 degrees. So to cut an
>>>> angle of 44.5 degrees, you set the gauge at (90 - 44.5) = 45.5
>>>> degrees.
>
>True for RAS, not the table saw.

Maybe not true for *your* table saw, but it's certainly true for the vast
majority of table saw miter gauges -- representative example here:
http://www.incra.com/images/miter_gauge_imagegallery/miterv27.jpg
>_____________
>
>>>> In any event, it should be clear that if the device reads 44.5 for
>>>> *both* 89-degree and 91-degree corners, then one or the other of
>>>> those readings *must* be wrong.
>>>
>>> Nope, both are correct.
>>
>> Impossible. Think about it: how could you fit both an 89-degree
>> outside
>> corner, *and* a 91-degree outside corner, with the same pieces???
>
>Cut one piece on a table saw? :)

Well, I think I'm understanding the source of your confusion a little better
now: you evidently have a very unusual miter gauge on your TS.
>_____________
>
>> I have an alternative suggestion for you: construct an object with
>> 80-degree
>> and 100-degree outside corners, cut four pieces of wood according to
>> your own descriptions, and then try fitting them around those outside
>> corners. That
>> should be a more than ample demonstration to you of exactly where your
>> misunderstanding lies.
>
>My main problem is that I should have stayed out of this thread in the first
>place :)
>
>I'm sick of miters and intend to spend my few remaining years promoting
>KISBI (keep it simple, butt it). :)
>

In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you
>>>>>> set the miter gauge at? Zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.
>>>
>>> Wait...I answered too quickly.
>>>
>>> On my table saw miter gauge I would set it at 90 degrees. On my
>>> radial arm saw, at 0 degrees.
>>
>> What table saw miter gauge is *that*??
>
>The one that came with this Grizzly saw several years ago when it was right
>tilt and tube rails.
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1023SL/images/2
>
In my experience, that's ... unusual.

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>
> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.

Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion does...tells you
to set as you said.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 19:47:52 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In your first example, however, if I have corner and I cut two pieces
>with 45.5 degree angles on them, I'll have a corner at 91 degrees, no?

I think the confusion is in the definition of "miter angle". If the
45.5° angle is measured from the "long side" of the board to the cut
line, then yes, your corner will be at 91°. But the setting on the
saw/miter gauge to make that cut is the complement of that angle. In
other words, the "miter angle" you set on the saw/miter gauge is
measured off the square 90° cut. So to get a 90° square cut, the
saw/miter gauge is set to 0° (which to me is a "miter angle" of 0°)

To get the 45.5° angle on the cut piece, the "miter angle" setting on
the saw or gauge would be 90-45.5 = 44.5

I may be swimming against the stream on that definition, but the
"miter angle" definition that is most meaningful to the guy setting up
the cut is the "angle you have to set on the miter gauge" to get the
angle needed on the workpiece.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <PS%[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, suppose it did. Suppose you have a 150 degree corner and you
>>>> want to cut miters for it. The device tells you to set up a 75
>>>> degree cut. How do you propose setting that up?
>>>
>>> That's easy: set the miter gauge at (90 - 75) = 15.
>>
>> Right. Please note that is what the gizmo under discussion
>> does...tells you to set as you said.
>
> No, it's not. As described in the original post, that is what the
> gizmo under discussion does _for obtuse angles only_; for acute
> angles, it reads the
> actual angle, not the necessary gauge setting to cut that angle. [*]

As you quote, if the angle is 89 the reading is 44.5...that's an acute angle
and it tells you to set the gauge at 44.5. Seems right to me.
_________

> And *that*, my friend, is why it's a useless POS. To make use of it,
> you must
> remember (a) that whether the reading represents the gauge setting or
> the
> actual miter angle depends on whether the corner angle is acute or
> obtuse, *and* (b) which way is which. It's much less effort, and much
> less
> error-prone, to simply measure the angle with a protractor and do the
> calculations.

There is hope for MIKE, none for you... :(
___________

> [* Quoted from the original post: "... If the angle of the corner is
> 89
> degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees. But if the angle of
> the
> corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also displays 44.5 degrees.
> ..."]


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:41:34 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The wrong angle.
>In the case of my original example, I would have a 20 degree gap in my
>joint.

Only if you use the cutoff instead of the workpiece.

You do have to remember that with acute angles, the cutoff is on one
side of the blade and with obtuse angles the cutoff is on the opposite
side of the blade. Which is which depends on whether you use a left or
right miter setting.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "dadiOH"
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> Suppose you want to cut a right angle (90 degrees). What do you set
>>> the miter gauge at? Zero.
>>
>> Right. And that's where the gizmo would tell one to set it.

Wait...I answered too quickly.

On my table saw miter gauge I would set it at 90 degrees. On my radial arm
saw, at 0 degrees.
____________

> Yes...... but there's still something you're missing.
>
> Perhaps this will help: suppose you want to cut a 60-degree angle.
> What do you
> set the miter gauge at?

At 60 degrees on my table saw gauge. That gets me a boards with 60 degree
pointy ends measured from the board edge. Haven't cut anything except
straight cuts on the RAS for a decade or more.
___________

>>> That's because miter gauges do not indicate the actual angle being
>>> cut; they indicate the angle's offset from 90 degrees. So to cut an
>>> angle of 44.5 degrees, you set the gauge at (90 - 44.5) = 45.5
>>> degrees.

True for RAS, not the table saw.
_____________

>>> In any event, it should be clear that if the device reads 44.5 for
>>> *both* 89-degree and 91-degree corners, then one or the other of
>>> those readings *must* be wrong.
>>
>> Nope, both are correct.
>
> Impossible. Think about it: how could you fit both an 89-degree
> outside
> corner, *and* a 91-degree outside corner, with the same pieces???

Cut one piece on a table saw? :)
_____________

> I have an alternative suggestion for you: construct an object with
> 80-degree
> and 100-degree outside corners, cut four pieces of wood according to
> your own descriptions, and then try fitting them around those outside
> corners. That
> should be a more than ample demonstration to you of exactly where your
> misunderstanding lies.

My main problem is that I should have stayed out of this thread in the first
place :)

I'm sick of miters and intend to spend my few remaining years promoting
KISBI (keep it simple, butt it). :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:31:21 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It measures angles fine. The problem comes in converting miter angles on
>obtuse angles. Acute angle are fine. If the angle of the corner is 89
>degrees, the miter reading displays 44.5 degrees.
>
>But if the angle of the corner is 91 degrees, the miter reading also
>displays 44.5 degrees. Shouldn't this be 45.5? If it’s 100 degrees the
>miter reading will display 40 degrees. Shouldn't this be 50 degrees?

The "miter angle" is the complement of 1/2 the included angle. For
example, the "miter angle" to join two boards end to end in a straight
line (180 included angle) is zero, a square cut: 90 - 1/2 (180) = 0

If the two walls make an angle of 89 degrees to each other, the miter
angle is 90 - 1/2 (89) = 90 - 44.5 = 45.5

if the two walls make an angle of 91 degrees to each other, the miter
angle is 90 - 1/2 (91) = 90 - 45.5 = 44.5.

if the two walls make an angle of 100 degrees to each other, the miter
angle is 90 - 1/2 (100) = 90 - 50 = 40.

Looks to me like the device is working fine for obtuse angles and is
giving the complement of the miter angle for acute angles.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA