Exterior T&G and Relative Humidity

I do not have an answer to your question but a thought. Wood installed
on a floor in a dried in porch might do different things compared to the
same wood installed on a ceiling. Heat from the attic or maybe infrared
might dry things out.

Wayne Whitney wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful response, a few comments:
>
> On 2007-01-17, Steve Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In fact, what usually happens (and there are homes everywhere around
>> here, including my own, that testify to the fact) is that spacing
>> GROWS due to shrinkage. This can happen even with dried lumber since
>> drying is usually done by a fast mechanized process but the cells
>> still contain some moisture that eventually migrates out of the
>> wood, and thus, shrinks it. (Imagine an old, unused sponge. Even if
>> you drop it in water, it won't expand to the size it was when new.)
>
> Are you suggesting that recently cut and kiln dried wood taken to a
> moisture content of, say, 12% may shrink over time even if the
> moisture content stays at 12%? Or just that kiln drying freshly cut
> lumber doesn't usually take the moisture content as low as its
> equilibrium moisture content in an unexposed exterior application?
>
>> In your case, the T&G won't even be directly exposed, and I assume
>> it is already dried, either by kiln or air. So it is safe to assume
>> that it won't expand.
>
> Well that is my big concern. I don't know the history of the boards
> before I bought them, except that they were kiln dried at some point
> before milling. After I bought them I stored them in my unheated
> garage for 5 weeks, primed both sides, stored them inside at 30% RH
> for a week, and painted one side. Do I need to let them sit outside
> before installing, and if so how long?
>
>> But the whole idea of T&G in the first place is to manage board
>> expansion and shinkage per board.
>
> I see how T&G will do that if you install it tightly at a moisture
> content at least as great as the highest moisture content it will see
> during service. But if the moisture content at installation is lower
> than it may see in service, a tight installation could cause buckling
> due to expansion, yes?
>
> Thanks, Wayne

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 01:52:08 +0000, Wayne Whitney wrote:
>
> Are you suggesting that recently cut and kiln dried wood taken to a
> moisture content of, say, 12% may shrink over time even if the
> moisture content stays at 12%?

Yes, most woods shrink over time simply due to the microscopic
cellular breakdown of the material. Moisture can make freshly cut wood
expand and contract but as the structures decompose over time, they
are no longer as flexible or as ideal a place for moisture to be
retained. Air pressure dictates this migration. This is why pressure
is usually used in treating wood, it forces the preservative into
cells that couldn't normally be contacted by the chemicals under
atmospheric (or even submerged) conditions.

In my experience, another significant factor in the disparity in
moisture percentages is due to the imprecise methods of measuring vast
quantities of construction materials in an automated process. If you
could scientifically measure more and smaller samples, the error (and
shrinkage) would be reduced. We specify wood for some construction
purposes to be kiln dried to, say, 12-15%. But I guarantee that the
wood that shows up on site will rarely meet that specification,
although some measurement technique during production registered that
it did.

Wood moisture content will eventually equalize at some rough point
based on the species and the environment. I call that equilibrium, but
it is actually a narrower range of fluctuation from surrounding
conditions. Granted, this could be more extreme in situations such as
a piano from Louisiana moved to a barn in Arizona. Or it could be more
significant in the case of a 200 year old violin simply moved about
the country in a concert tour without being in a sophisticated
moisture controlled case. Neither compare to the difference from
freshly cut lumber to the first time it is cut down to a workable
size.

> Or just that kiln drying freshly cut lumber doesn't usually take the
> moisture content as low as its equilibrium moisture content in an
> unexposed exterior application?

Quite the contrary, it is possible to "over-dry" wood in a kiln. It
can then still take on water and expand a little. But over-drying also
damages the wood cells, the very property of the material we want to
preserve. It also prevents vast expansion comparable to the shrinkage
I usually am more worried about.

> > In your case, the T&G won't even be directly exposed, and I assume
> > it is already dried, either by kiln or air. So it is safe to
> > assume that it won't expand.
>
> Well that is my big concern. I don't know the history of the boards
> before I bought them, except that they were kiln dried at some point
> before milling. After I bought them I stored them in my unheated
> garage for 5 weeks, primed both sides, stored them inside at 30% RH
> for a week, and painted one side. Do I need to let them sit outside
> before installing, and if so how long?

You're not going to have a problem. I don't know the size, but if they
are 2x6 or bigger, it is likely that the wood still hasn't come down
to the equilibrium range. In any case, I would expect that after kiln
drying and your significant storage time it should be very close, and
if for some reason they are below it, it can't be by much. Remember,
these are construction materials, not anything as hyper-sensitive as a
musical instrument.

> > But the whole idea of T&G in the first place is to manage board
> > expansion and shinkage per board.
>
> I see how T&G will do that if you install it tightly at a moisture
> content at least as great as the highest moisture content it will
> see during service. But if the moisture content at installation is
> lower than it may see in service, a tight installation could cause
> buckling due to expansion, yes?

Tight is a relative term. If you somehow clamped each piece into the
next before nailing it, you might be able to cause problems. But if
you use a reasonable construction method, expansion won't be an issue.
Just realize that those tongues and grooves are DESIGNED to maintain a
joint with expansion and contraction over time. Don't try to pinch
them together or leave too much room for expansion, the idea is to let
groups of two or three can work together. I'll close by reiterating
that my chief concern for outside materials is always shrinkage, never
expansion.


--
Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:32:38 +0000, Wayne Whitney wrote:
>
> I'm installing a T&G beadboard porch ceiling made from poplar 1x4s,
> priming both faces and painting the exterior face only (using acrylic
> latex). I'm wondering whether I can install the boards tight
> together, or if I need to leave a small gap between the boards to
> allow for expansion due to changes in relative humidity.

When outside, wood moisture levels usually decrease down to whatever
the equilibrium state is (12-15%). I'm an architect in NC, a very
humid place during the summer, and although it is still common
practice to leave a 16d nail spacing between decking boards, there is
no reason to for expansion. I think it is a good idea to leave some
space so that water can easily shed off the surface, but this is a
consideration for the wood's protection, not expansion. (Completely
different story on interior flooring--it is the opposite strategy
since the wood starts ultra-dry and is put down over moisture
containing concrete--but that is another post altogether.)

In fact, what usually happens (and there are homes everywhere around
here, including my own, that testify to the fact) is that spacing
GROWS due to shrinkage. This can happen even with dried lumber since
drying is usually done by a fast mechanized process but the cells
still contain some moisture that eventually migrates out of the wood,
and thus, shrinks it. (Imagine an old, unused sponge. Even if you drop
it in water, it won't expand to the size it was when new.)

In your case, the T&G won't even be directly exposed, and I assume it
is already dried, either by kiln or air. So it is safe to assume that
it won't expand. What you want to avoid is the rather large gaps that
will appear over time. All this does not mean you should jamb them as
closely as possible. But the whole idea of T&G in the first place is
to manage board expansion and shinkage per board. You should install
them with a good fit, no tighter or looser. It is a good idea to leave
a trim-covered gap around the perimeter to manage any eventual motion
either way, but this would likely be seasonally cyclical.

> I understand that wood expands with increasing moisture content, up
> to the fiber saturation point. So will the latex paint slow the
> exchange of moisture sufficiently that the board is more or less
> always at the moisture content in equilibrium with the average
> relative humidity?

Nothing stops humidity movement, short of expensive man-made
membranes, and that only for a time. Even the world's best resinous
flooring systems will pop right off of concrete if the moisture
pressures below it are not properly managed.

My $0.02 US.


--
Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

"Wayne Whitney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Steve,
>
> Thanks for all your comments. It sounds like my concerns are
> theoretically possible, but in practice only occur under extreme
> circumstances. I'll give the boards stored inside a day outside to
> reacclimate, and then I'll install them snug but not super tight. I
> think that should take care of everything.
>
> Cheers, Wayne

Wayne, you're getting some misinformation. Wood will adsorb and release
moisture to get into equilibrium with the relative humidity of its
surroundings. Period, end of sentence. Makes no difference how it was
dried, to what point it was dried, or what finish you put on it. Its shape
will modify accordingly. Of course, if you heat its surface in sunlight, as
on a deck, or place it over a crawl space with no vapor barrier, the weather
report is not going to determine the relative humidity.

Since you have lots of room to shrink with no risk of gapping, and it's
pretty humid right now, sticker the stuff on the porch a _week or two_ to
acclimate to the higher, and put it up without pushing, but without
deliberate gapping and let the law of averages take care of you. Nails will
allow movement, as you know, so leave a gap under molding at the edge to
take up any movement of the giant board you've made that can't be taken up
internally.

Information on wood, why, how, and how much it moves, as well as a lot of
other things. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ GOOD information.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your thoughtful response, a few comments:

On 2007-01-17, Steve Hall <[email protected]> wrote:

> In fact, what usually happens (and there are homes everywhere around
> here, including my own, that testify to the fact) is that spacing
> GROWS due to shrinkage. This can happen even with dried lumber since
> drying is usually done by a fast mechanized process but the cells
> still contain some moisture that eventually migrates out of the
> wood, and thus, shrinks it. (Imagine an old, unused sponge. Even if
> you drop it in water, it won't expand to the size it was when new.)

Are you suggesting that recently cut and kiln dried wood taken to a
moisture content of, say, 12% may shrink over time even if the
moisture content stays at 12%? Or just that kiln drying freshly cut
lumber doesn't usually take the moisture content as low as its
equilibrium moisture content in an unexposed exterior application?

> In your case, the T&G won't even be directly exposed, and I assume
> it is already dried, either by kiln or air. So it is safe to assume
> that it won't expand.

Well that is my big concern. I don't know the history of the boards
before I bought them, except that they were kiln dried at some point
before milling. After I bought them I stored them in my unheated
garage for 5 weeks, primed both sides, stored them inside at 30% RH
for a week, and painted one side. Do I need to let them sit outside
before installing, and if so how long?

> But the whole idea of T&G in the first place is to manage board
> expansion and shinkage per board.

I see how T&G will do that if you install it tightly at a moisture
content at least as great as the highest moisture content it will see
during service. But if the moisture content at installation is lower
than it may see in service, a tight installation could cause buckling
due to expansion, yes?

Thanks, Wayne

Hi Steve,

Thanks for all your comments. It sounds like my concerns are
theoretically possible, but in practice only occur under extreme
circumstances. I'll give the boards stored inside a day outside to
reacclimate, and then I'll install them snug but not super tight. I
think that should take care of everything.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2007-01-17, George <[email protected]> wrote:

> Wayne, you're getting some misinformation. Wood will adsorb and
> release moisture to get into equilibrium with the relative humidity
> of its surroundings. Period, end of sentence.

OK, this is certainly true if the ambient relative humidity is
constant. But given that the ambient relative humidity is changing,
the wood is always trying to "catch up". So it seems like it becomes
a rate-limited effect. The moisture content of the wood would
fluctuate within a band corresponding to a band of relative humidity
fluctuations that is narrower than the full ambient fluctuations,
because the extreme ambient fluctuations don't last long enough for
the board to reach equilibrium. It would seem, moreover, that
anything retarding moisture exchange with the environment, like a
paint finish, would make the wood's fluctuation band narrower.

Is that analysis correct? Also, what about the statement that a
freshly cut piece of wood dried to a given moisture content, say 12%,
will be wider than that same piece of wood at 12% moisture content
several years later when it has aged? The idea, presumably, would be
that aged wood responds less to fluctuations in moisture content while
retaining the same oven-dry dimensions.

> Since you have lots of room to shrink with no risk of gapping, and
> it's pretty humid right now, sticker the stuff on the porch a _week
> or two_ to acclimate to the higher

Right, so the wood was outside 5 weeks, and inside 1 week at 30% RH.
Seems like 1 week outside ought to be sufficient to reverse whatever
shrinkage keeping it inside allowed?

> Nails will allow movement, as you know

This I didn't know, actually. Are we talking about toe nails only, or
also face nails? I'm rebuilding the porch, and the way it was
constructed is that each board was toe nailed through the tongue into
one joist at center span, and then the ends of the boards were
supported by a 1x8 frieze board, with a face nail from above through
the board into the frieze board. The span is roughly 6', so I'm
rebuilding the porch with two joists instead of one.

Thanks, Wayne