LH

"Lew Hodgett"

28/03/2011 9:39 PM

O/T: Opinion

I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw
them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Obviously oil is driving current events.

Sooner or later; however, this problem has to be resolved.

Off the box.

Lew


This topic has 47 replies

Rr

RicodJour

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 9:14 AM

On Mar 29, 3:27=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates

R

nn

"nailshooter41@aol.com"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 12:02 AM

I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.

I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Appeals are limited, and
often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Cost (in round numbers)
is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. For easy numbers, probably
about $275K to $325K.

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

Crap!! It costs us four more times the amount to get rid of them as
it does to simply house them! So the proponents of the law are
selling the point that we get about 4+ for 1 if we quit executing
them. Makes sense to me.

Those are round numbers drawn from memory. I am sure the Google
professors can find the right cites to get the numbers more exact.

I always look at the death penalty as the old saying "it depends on
who's ox is in the ditch".

When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
expressions of opinion. We can't change anything so what is the point
of spending the jaw time on it? But if pushed, I always ask this
question:

"If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
still feel the same way? What if something was done to your kids?
What is that was done to all of them?"

It seems it is easier to be philosophical and to subscribe to a
higher, cleaner, academic style of thinking when you and your loved
ones aren't the victims.

You cannot imagine how elated I was when they posed a form of that
question to Mike Dukakis. I remember though, he struggled hard and
didn't lie... he just stumbled around a lot for a while. I guess he
never thought about opposing the death penalty in that context.

I had a very good friend of mine was tied up and sexually assaulted
and beaten continually for about 7 hours as a night's amusement for
someone a many years ago. After all the plastic surgeries to put her
face back together, all the years of therapy, and all the time passed,
she is still a very different and in some ways a broken, person. Since
then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
others would be a good thing, too.

I guess like a lot of us though, I can be a little ambivalent as to
whether it is good to execute or not.

But, the financial aspect is the first thing in the whole argument
that made real sense to me. With that in mind, I am against the death
penalty.

Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
shouldn't be a problem. Typically, they approach the slow moving
ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. A .50 cal would stop the
little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
range of the typical RPG. So would an M60. Problem solved. Less
pirates on the seas as a side benefit.

Robert

Rr

RicodJour

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 6:32 PM

On Mar 29, 8:26=A0pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
> >> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.
>
> > As are fisherman. =A0I was very surprised to see guys fishing the India=
n
> > Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. =A0The small boats have
> > mother ships the same way that the pirates do. =A0In any guerrilla
> > action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. =A0W=
e
> > have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
> > idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.
>
> > Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
> > the people and ships already held hostage. =A0You'd essentially be
> > writing them off as well. =A0When the topic of dealing with pirates
> > comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. =A0I'm
> > not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates
>
> You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
> destroy the nest.

If Somalia had oil there wouldn't be piracy - you can bet on that.
What it needs is a working government that can police their own
people, and that's not happening anytime soon. The ship ransom's are
buying the latest in weaponry and making a lot of big fish in a little
pond. Pretty much irresistible to the poor piss-ants.

R

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 5:49 AM

On Mar 29, 8:24=A0am, "Leon" <lcb11...@swbell.dotnet> wrote:
> <nailshoote...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
> > benevolence. =A0I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
> > but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
> > being for or against it.
>
> > Cost.
>
> > We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
> > legislature that would stop the death penalty. =A0The reason? =A0Nooo..=
..
> > we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
> > is simply the money. =A0That is the whole intent behind the proposed
> > law, to save money.
>
> > I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
> > that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
> > the inmate stays in something like 12 years. =A0Appeals are limited, an=
d
> > often dismissed out of hand in these cases. =A0Cost (in round numbers)
> > is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
> > lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. =A0For easy numbers, probably
> > about $275K to $325K.
>
> > However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
> > the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
> > penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
> > special cells on death row runs the bill way up. =A0Somewhere to the
> > tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.
>
> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execu=
te
> some one. =A0A bullet is all that is needed.
> I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
> more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
> execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost. =A0T=
here
> should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.
>
> If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps th=
at
> in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.
>
> Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described. =A0;~)

Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
Those cut-throat bastards are the reason why sometimes innocent people
get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
way.
The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.

As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
executed.
Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
by the overburdened tax-payers.

Rr

RicodJour

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 4:36 PM

On Mar 29, 6:42=A0pm, "DGDevin" <DGDe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> wrote in messagenews:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.goo=
glegroups.com...
>
> > However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
> > the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
> > penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
> > special cells on death row runs the bill way up. =A0Somewhere to the
> > tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.
>
> So shorten the process. =A0Lawyers who fight death penalty cases are some=
times
> open about their intention to delay, delay, delay without regard for the
> merit of the endless motions and appeals they file. =A0They're opposed to=
the
> death penalty and so they'll do anything and everything to drag out the
> process. =A0Cut that off and the whole process gets way cheaper.
>
> > When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
> > expressions of opinion. =A0We can't change anything so what is the poin=
t
> > of spending the jaw time on it? =A0But if pushed, I always ask this
> > question:
> > "If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
> > still feel the same way? =A0What if something was done to your kids?
> > What is that was done to all of them?"
>
> That should be irrelevant. =A0The law is supposed to be applied equally, =
not
> depending on whether the victim is someone you know.
>
> > Since
> > then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
> > several times, not just once. =A0Maybe some torture like they inflict o=
n
> > others would be a good thing, too.
>
> No, it would not. =A0I think the death penalty should be available, altho=
ugh
> not so much as a penalty as simply to ensure that a monster is never agai=
n
> able to kill anyone. =A0But we gain nothing by climbing down into the sew=
er
> with the rapists and killers.
>
> > Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
> > shouldn't be a problem. =A0Typically, they approach the slow moving
> > ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
> > threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. =A0A .50 cal would stop the
> > little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
> > range of the typical RPG. =A0So would an M60. =A0Problem solved. =A0Les=
s
> > pirates on the seas as a side benefit.
>
> Who mans these weapons, the military? =A0That would require teams on hund=
reds
> if not thousands of vessels passing through that area every year, that's =
a
> lot of money and manpower. =A0Arm the crews? =A0Aside from relying on ama=
teurs,
> that would just mean that before long the pirates would replace the RPGs
> with 82mm or 107mm recoilless, or something more sophisticated (which at
> least some of them can certainly afford). =A0You put a .50cal on a ship, =
the
> pirates bring along a 23mm. =A0You provide ships with snipers, the pirate=
s
> turn to wire-guided missiles to get their point across.

There's also the little problem of having armed ships entering
territorial waters. If a merchant ship is well enough armed to be
able to defend itself, well, there might not be any place for them to
dock when they get to their destination or for refueling. That alone
is a deal breaker for arming merchant ships.

> I like the idea of what the British called Q-ships, merchant vessels
> provided with extra floatation and hidden weaponry, used to lure German
> U-boats to the surface where they could surprise the sub with unexpected
> firepower. =A0Run a few of those up and down the sea lanes off Somalia an=
d the
> pirating business would get a lot riskier. =A0But the pirates are not goi=
ng to
> disappear, poverty has a way of driving people into crime, always has,
> always will.

In a nutshell.

R

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 8:33 AM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<counterfitter@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mar 29, 8:24 am, "Leon" <lcb11...@swbell.dotnet> wrote:
>> <nailshoote...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
>> > benevolence.  I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
>> > but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
>> > being for or against it.
>>
>> > Cost.
>>
>> > We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
>> > legislature that would stop the death penalty.  The reason?  Nooo....
>> > we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
>> > is simply the money.  That is the whole intent behind the proposed
>> > law, to save money.
>>
>> > I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
>> > that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
>> > the inmate stays in something like 12 years.  Appeals are limited, and
>> > often dismissed out of hand in these cases.  Cost (in round numbers)
>> > is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
>> > lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases.  For easy numbers, probably
>> > about $275K to $325K.
>>
>> > However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
>> > the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
>> > penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
>> > special cells on death row runs the bill way up.  Somewhere to the
>> > tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

Crazy, isn't it?


>> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
>> some one.  A bullet is all that is needed.

Bullet, sword, pinch of poison, etc.


>> I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
>> more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
>> execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost.  There
>> should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.
>>
>> If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps that
>> in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.

Agreed. Mandatory appeals are a travesty in themselves. Even if that
asshole has confessed and there is a video tape of him doing the
killings, the law demands an appeal. FTS!


>> Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described.  ;~)
>
>Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
>Those cut-throat bastards are the reason why sometimes innocent people
>get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
>If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
>should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
>execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
>way.
>The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
>exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
>create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
>most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.
>
>As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
>election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
>executed.

When you consider all the people the bad guys are going to kill,
inside prison or out, losing a couple innocents (as horribly
distasteful as it is) is still a winning proposition, though not for
these particular innocents.

I kinda liked the scenario in Escape from New York. Put up a wall,
dump in the hardened criminals, and then just forget 'em.


>Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
>and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
>reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
>expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
>by the overburdened tax-payers.

That's a position many of us could agree with, and we'd sleep
comfortably at night.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

28/03/2011 10:09 PM


"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
---------------------------------
Difficult to sink an ocean going vessel; however, scuttling is a
different matter.

Lew

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 12:27 AM

<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote:

>I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
> benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
> but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
> being for or against it.
>
> Cost.
>
> We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
> legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason?
> Nooo....
> we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends,
> it
> is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
> law, to save money.
>
> I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it
> appears
> that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
> the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Appeals are limited,
> and
> often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Cost (in round numbers)
> is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along
> the
> lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. For easy numbers, probably
> about $275K to $325K.
>
> However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process
> from
> the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
> penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
> special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
> tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.
----------------------------------
Update your numbers a little bit.

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Estimated cost to execute someone is in the order of
$2,000,000-$2,500,000.

On a worst case basis calculation:

$2,000,000/$50,000 = 40 years.

Life without parole is not only less costly but it's reversible if
society gets it wrong.

As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

Lew

dd

"dadiOH"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 10:21 AM

nailshooter41@aol.com wrote:

> But, the financial aspect is the first thing in the whole argument
> that made real sense to me. With that in mind, I am against the death
> penalty.

How would you feel about a more efficiently applied death sentence?

When I was in China 25+ years ago, a Chinese court sentenced a fellow to
death. Twenty minutes later, he was (dead).

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico


dd

"dadiOH"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 10:24 AM

Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years at
hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico


DW

Doug Winterburn

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 10:14 PM

On 03/29/2011 03:12 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>
>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>> supporting or close to it.
>>
>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
>> years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>
>
> And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard
> of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Check out Maricopa County, Arizona. Chain gangs are voluntary and open
to women and juveniles. Not really the chain gangs of yore...

SS

Stuart

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 10:39 PM

In article <4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com>,
Lew Hodgett <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote:

> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
> piracy.

Yes, and drug pushers and Paedophiles.

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

http://mug.riscos.org/show11/MUGshow.html

SS

Stuart

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 10:48 PM

In article
<36c043a1-ad65-48da-b3ed-912ac90bccb1@z31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:

> There's also the little problem of having armed ships entering
> territorial waters. If a merchant ship is well enough armed to be
> able to defend itself, well, there might not be any place for them to
> dock when they get to their destination or for refueling. That alone
> is a deal breaker for arming merchant ships.

Q-ships

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/q_-_ships.htm

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

http://mug.riscos.org/show11/MUGshow.html

Ll

"Leon"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:32 PM


"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
news:ouu3p65gp6m7kcea62be7rq2srqof7rhk6@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 06:09:55 -0700 (PDT), "joeljcarver@aol.com"
> <joeljcarver@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to
>>> execute
>>> some one. A bullet is all that is needed.
>>
>>Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.
>
> Bbbut, isn't the cruel and unusual punishment?
>
> I love the "suicide watch" on Death Row, too.
>
> Oh, the Muckin' Forons.



I heard George Carlin once question the procedure of the lethal injection.
Why do they wipe the injection spot with an alcohol swab?

jj

"joeljcarver@aol.com"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 6:09 AM


> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execu=
te
> some one. =A0A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

DD

"DGDevin"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:42 PM



wrote in message
news:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


> However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
> the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
> penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
> special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
> tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

So shorten the process. Lawyers who fight death penalty cases are sometimes
open about their intention to delay, delay, delay without regard for the
merit of the endless motions and appeals they file. They're opposed to the
death penalty and so they'll do anything and everything to drag out the
process. Cut that off and the whole process gets way cheaper.

> When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
> expressions of opinion. We can't change anything so what is the point
> of spending the jaw time on it? But if pushed, I always ask this
> question:

> "If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
> still feel the same way? What if something was done to your kids?
> What is that was done to all of them?"

That should be irrelevant. The law is supposed to be applied equally, not
depending on whether the victim is someone you know.

> Since
> then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
> several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
> others would be a good thing, too.

No, it would not. I think the death penalty should be available, although
not so much as a penalty as simply to ensure that a monster is never again
able to kill anyone. But we gain nothing by climbing down into the sewer
with the rapists and killers.

> Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
> shouldn't be a problem. Typically, they approach the slow moving
> ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
> threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. A .50 cal would stop the
> little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
> range of the typical RPG. So would an M60. Problem solved. Less
> pirates on the seas as a side benefit.

Who mans these weapons, the military? That would require teams on hundreds
if not thousands of vessels passing through that area every year, that's a
lot of money and manpower. Arm the crews? Aside from relying on amateurs,
that would just mean that before long the pirates would replace the RPGs
with 82mm or 107mm recoilless, or something more sophisticated (which at
least some of them can certainly afford). You put a .50cal on a ship, the
pirates bring along a 23mm. You provide ships with snipers, the pirates
turn to wire-guided missiles to get their point across.

I like the idea of what the British called Q-ships, merchant vessels
provided with extra floatation and hidden weaponry, used to lure German
U-boats to the surface where they could surprise the sub with unexpected
firepower. Run a few of those up and down the sea lanes off Somalia and the
pirating business would get a lot riskier. But the pirates are not going to
disappear, poverty has a way of driving people into crime, always has,
always will.

Ll

"Leon"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:30 PM


<joeljcarver@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8b468f58-420f-402e-86c9-86059487a80b@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to
> execute
> some one. A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

You could use the gun in a court room and it would be easily concealed until
needed. The rope would take a few seconds longer, why waste time? '~)

MM

Mike M

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 6:33 PM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:48:39 -0500, Swingman <kac@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 3/29/2011 7:49 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
>> Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
>> Those cut-throat bastards are the reason why sometimes innocent people
>> get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
>> If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
>> should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
>> execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
>> way.
>> The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
>> exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
>> create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
>> most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.
>>
>> As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
>> election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
>> executed.
>> Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
>> and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
>> reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
>> expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
>> by the overburdened tax-payers.
>
>What he said ...

No Kidding, well said

Mike M

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 4:58 PM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:23:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<LD@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
>news:u0u3p6po4253cnm3htde1cns3co0o79ku8@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbell.dotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>>>>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
>>>>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
>>>>> piracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
>>>>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>>>>
>>>> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
>>>
>>>Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.
>>
>> Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
>> software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
>> artillery.
>>
>
>Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly all
>you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.

By "dumping" do you mean utilizing neutron bombs or getting rid of
their use?


--
The general effect was exactly like a microscopic view of a
small detachment of black beetles, in search of a dead rat.
-- John Ruskin

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 8:46 AM

On Mar 29, 11:19=A0am, Larry Jaques <ljaq...@invalid.diversify.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11...@swbell.dotnet>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Lobby Dosser" <L...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
> >> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
> >>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>
> >>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
> >>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>
> >>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion o=
f
> >>> piracy.
>
> >>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>
> >>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw th=
em
> >>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>
> >> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
>
> >Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.
>
> Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
> software. =A0Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
> artillery.
>
> --
> Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
> but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Jimmy Wales

Neutron bombs are totally cool weapons, with a few drawbacks.
Along the lines of a nuclear hand grenade, one must have one helluvan
arm to throw it far enough so it won't mess up yo'own-ass. A neutron
bomb shell in artillery form must have a serious range as well.
Also, keeping those bombs fresh is difficult as their content's half-
life is about a decade.

JJ

"Josepi"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 12:02 PM

I saw my first and only chain gang working on a road project on Florida in
1974
Not sure if they were chained but the guns were watching closely.

Death Penalty.
I agree the death penalty is too harsh and useless for most crimes.

Second timers and prison guard / cop killers should be an exception but
based on televised & publicized US court cases I wouldn't trust an American
court decision to evaluate the crime with that serious of a penalty. Public
square horsewhipping comes to mind.

Somebody likes to start fights...LOL
---------------

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message news:imtlfu$s1k$1@dont-email.me...
And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Rr

RicodJour

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 6:32 PM

On Mar 29, 8:26=A0pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
> >> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.
>
> > As are fisherman. =A0I was very surprised to see guys fishing the India=
n
> > Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. =A0The small boats have
> > mother ships the same way that the pirates do. =A0In any guerrilla
> > action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. =A0W=
e
> > have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
> > idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.
>
> > Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
> > the people and ships already held hostage. =A0You'd essentially be
> > writing them off as well. =A0When the topic of dealing with pirates
> > comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. =A0I'm
> > not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates
>
> You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
> destroy the nest.

If Somalia had oil there wouldn't be piracy - you can bet on that.
What it needs is a working government that can police their own
people, and that's not happening anytime soon. The ship ransom's are
buying the latest in weaponry and making a lot of big fish in a little
pond. Pretty much irresistible to the poor piss-ants.

R

Sk

Swingman

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 11:48 AM

On 3/29/2011 7:49 AM, Robatoy wrote:

> Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
> Those cut-throat bastards are the reason why sometimes innocent people
> get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
> If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
> should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
> execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
> way.
> The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
> exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
> create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
> most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.
>
> As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
> election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
> executed.
> Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
> and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
> reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
> expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
> by the overburdened tax-payers.

What he said ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Ll

"Leon"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 7:05 AM


"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>>
>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>>
>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
>> piracy.
>>
>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>>
>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>
> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

28/03/2011 9:41 PM

"Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>
> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>
> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
> piracy.
>
> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>
> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 1:42 AM

<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote in message
news:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
> benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
> but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
> being for or against it.
>
> Cost.
snip

> I had a very good friend of mine was tied up and sexually assaulted
> and beaten continually for about 7 hours as a night's amusement for
> someone a many years ago. After all the plastic surgeries to put her
> face back together, all the years of therapy, and all the time passed,
> she is still a very different and in some ways a broken, person. Since
> then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
> several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
> others would be a good thing, too.
>
> I guess like a lot of us though, I can be a little ambivalent as to
> whether it is good to execute or not.
>
> But, the financial aspect is the first thing in the whole argument
> that made real sense to me. With that in mind, I am against the death
> penalty.

How about a lobotomy? No, not for you, for the perps. Quick snippage and out
to a sheltered workshop to make basketry.

AB

Andrew Barss

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 9:47 PM

nailshooter41@aol.com <nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote:
: I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
: benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
: but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
: being for or against it.

: Cost.

I used to be (when I was much younger) morally opposed to the death penalty.
I'm not any more, but there have been enough cases of incompetence where the
wrong guy gets convicted and in some cases executed that I'm opposed to it on the
grounds that one wrongfully convicted and executed person is too many.

But I'm not convinced by the cost argument. If it were cheaper to
execute someone than to house him, then what?

So, I'm in principle in favor of the death penalty. For practical reasons,
I am not in favor of it, but want life sentences with *NO* chance for
release as a substitute. And I mean none. Unless they can prove to have been
wrongfully committed, some people really need to be removed permanently from society.

-- Andy Barss

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:12 PM

"dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>
> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
> supporting or close to it.
>
> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>

And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:18 PM

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:036518dc-3bbe-4ad7-83e5-555e95f3bdfa@z27g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates

R

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why cite the Romans when we have our own proud tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

--
Ever wonder why doctors, dentists and lawyers have to Practice so much? Ever
wonder why you let them Practice on You?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:23 PM

"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
news:u0u3p6po4253cnm3htde1cns3co0o79ku8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbell.dotnet>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
>>> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>>>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>>>>
>>>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
>>>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
>>>> piracy.
>>>>
>>>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>>>>
>>>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
>>>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>>>
>>> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
>>
>>Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.
>
> Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
> software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
> artillery.
>

Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly all
you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 12:50 AM

<krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:v2s4p6trn7jif4re39iiirq8gn7akh8tfa@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>"dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
>>news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>>
>>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>>> supporting or close to it.
>>>
>>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
>>> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>>
>>
>>And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
>>a
>>chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.
>
> Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for
> cleanup
> and such.


Around here (Oregon) that seems do be done with short term (less than a
year, in general) prisoners from the local jails, not the prisoners from the
penitentiaries.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 12:53 AM

"Doug Winterburn" <dlwinterburn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4d92bc22$0$28318$c3e8da3$b1356c67@news.astraweb.com...
> On 03/29/2011 03:12 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>>
>>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>>> supporting or close to it.
>>>
>>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
>>> years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>>
>>
>> And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard
>> of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.
>
> Check out Maricopa County, Arizona. Chain gangs are voluntary and open to
> women and juveniles. Not really the chain gangs of yore...


Paul Newman!

Last I saw were out of Kilby Prison in Alabama.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 12:54 AM

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:f18f83a7-eed4-47ac-ba9f-2e24da022b1d@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 29, 8:26 pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
> >> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.
>
> > As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
> > Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
> > mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
> > action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
> > have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
> > idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.
>
> > Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
> > the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
> > writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
> > comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
> > not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates
>
> You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
> destroy the nest.

If Somalia had oil there wouldn't be piracy - you can bet on that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But there would still be hostages. See Niger.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 1:19 AM

"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
news:c1s4p6h0okiivki2nstui5n9a017jkpkqo@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:23:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
> <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
>>news:u0u3p6po4253cnm3htde1cns3co0o79ku8@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbell.dotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>>>>>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
>>>>>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> piracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
>>>>
>>>>Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.
>>>
>>> Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
>>> software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
>>> artillery.
>>>
>>
>>Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly
>>all
>>you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.
>
> By "dumping" do you mean utilizing neutron bombs or getting rid of
> their use?

We stopped building them. Bush the Elder.

cc

"chaniarts"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 8:48 AM

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>
>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>> supporting or close to it.
>>
>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
>> years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>
>
> And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or
> heard of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

still common in az

ME

Martin Eastburn

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 8:31 PM

I've seen them in the 50's as a kid - they were cleaning
the streets after a flood. Man on horseback with a big gun.

Martin

On 3/30/2011 12:00 AM, CW wrote:
> "Lobby Dosser"<LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:imtlfu$s1k$1@dont-email.me...
>> "dadiOH"<dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>>
>>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>>> supporting or close to it.
>>>
>>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
>>> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>>
>>
>> And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
>> a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.
>
> Fairly recently in Texas.
>
>

DD

"DGDevin"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 3:45 PM



"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...

> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
> supporting or close to it.

> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?

Outsourced to China.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 8:35 AM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 06:09:55 -0700 (PDT), "joeljcarver@aol.com"
<joeljcarver@aol.com> wrote:

>
>> The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
>> some one.  A bullet is all that is needed.
>
>Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

Bbbut, isn't the cruel and unusual punishment?

I love the "suicide watch" on Death Row, too.

Oh, the Muckin' Forons.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

Cc

"CW"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 10:00 PM


"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:imtlfu$s1k$1@dont-email.me...
> "dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>
>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>> supporting or close to it.
>>
>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
>> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>
>
> And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
> a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Fairly recently in Texas.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 4:40 PM

nailshooter41@aol.com wrote:
> I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
> benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
> but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
> being for or against it.
>
> Cost.
>
> We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
> legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
> we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
> is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
> law, to save money.
>

Actual conversation as reported by the London Gazette:

Condemned man: "Whatcha hangin' me for, gov'nor? Hangin' me won't bring
Charlie back!"
Lord High Mayor of London: "Oh, we're not hanging you for killing Charlie.
We're hanging you so that others won't kill."

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 7:26 PM

RicodJour wrote:
> On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" <sails.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
>> inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.
>
> As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
> Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
> mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
> action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
> have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
> idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.
>
> Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
> the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
> writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
> comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
> not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#Campaign_against_the_pirates
>

You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
destroy the nest.

kk

"krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

30/03/2011 8:43 PM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:50:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote:

><krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>news:v2s4p6trn7jif4re39iiirq8gn7akh8tfa@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>>>
>>>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>>>> supporting or close to it.
>>>>
>>>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
>>>> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>>>
>>>
>>>And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
>>>a
>>>chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.
>>
>> Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for
>> cleanup
>> and such.
>
>
>Around here (Oregon) that seems do be done with short term (less than a
>year, in general) prisoners from the local jails, not the prisoners from the
>penitentiaries.

Likely because of the flight risk.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 8:19 AM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbell.dotnet>
wrote:

>
>"Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:imrnu0$7gc$1@dont-email.me...
>> "Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>>>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>>>
>>> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
>>> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
>>> piracy.
>>>
>>> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>>>
>>> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
>>> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>>
>> Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.
>
>Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

kk

"krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 6:51 PM

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <LD@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>"dadiOH" <dadiOH@invalid.com> wrote in message
>news:4d91ebd0$0$4939$a8266bb1@postbox2.readnews.com...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>
>> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
>> supporting or close to it.
>>
>> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
>> at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>>
>
>And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
>chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for cleanup
and such.

ww

willshak

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 12:09 PM

dadiOH wrote the following:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>
>> Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.
>>
>
> Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
> supporting or close to it.
>
> When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years at
> hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?
>
>
>

Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Wc

"WW"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 4:52 PM


"Lew Hodgett" <sails.man1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4d916278$0$31547$c3e8da3$a8a65a91@news.astraweb.com...
>I am opposed to the death penalty.
>
> Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
> Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.
>
> Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
> piracy.
>
> The old timers had it right IMHO.
>
> Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
> over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.
>
> Obviously oil is driving current events.
>
> Sooner or later; however, this problem has to be resolved.
>
> Off the box.
>
> Lew
>
>After reading all of the replies....An eye for an eye. As for the pirates
>is it illegal for merchant ships to have bazookas for protection?

Ll

"Leon"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 28/03/2011 9:39 PM

29/03/2011 7:24 AM


<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote in message
news:12437501-a27d-4ed6-abfe-50d6ffa00a0c@s18g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
> benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
> but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
> being for or against it.
>
> Cost.
>
> We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
> legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
> we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
> is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
> law, to save money.
>
> I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
> that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
> the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Appeals are limited, and
> often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Cost (in round numbers)
> is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
> lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. For easy numbers, probably
> about $275K to $325K.
>
> However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
> the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
> penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
> special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
> tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. A bullet is all that is needed.
I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost. There
should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.

If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps that
in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.

Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described. ;~)






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