Need some help from you Advanced wood men/women please

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
> badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
> maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
> cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".

Maybe so, but I have to believe that cellphones are an undesirable
distraction to anyone while driving. I remember once when I was standing in
line in the little corner grocery store in my building. Some guy came in
while talking to his girlfriend on his cellphone. By the way he looked
around, I knew right away that he was looking for the cash machine. I
watched him walk around the store looking for it while still talking on the
phone. He passed by it three times before I pointed it out to him. If he'd
have been driving a car at the time, I'd have run for cover.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I drug them out by the curb. Get here soon because rain is expected
> Tuesday.
>
> Sorry, I'm really low on beer. How about a bottle of bourbon or a single
> malt Scotch instead?

I suppose the bourbon will have to do. Good show. Now go find a senior's
home to move into like you're supposed to do. Glad to see that you've come
to your senses.

You could take your time and hunt around for a good deal on an old
Unisaw or PM66 and save a little money to do some refurb on it. Just a
thought.

Nascar Raiders wrote:
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul

I've read some of the other responses. Sure, if you want to wait a
while until you can spend $1000 and get a cabinet saw, that's good
advice. However, if you're like me, the budget is the budget and even
six months from now it's still going to be $500-600 because that's the
amount that you're willing to spend. If that's the case, go with a
contractor saw but be sure to get a name brand and investigate the
specifications carefully. Jet, Delta, Powermatic, General, Grizzly etc.
Check out the Grizzly G0444Z. You can get it for about $600 including
shipping. Google that model number for lots of discussions from me and
other folks. The fence alone will rock your world after using the
benchtop and 2 HP is enough for most of us.

There are a lot of very accomplished woodworkers in this group with
extremely well equipped shops that are perfectly happy and do
incredible work with a contractor saw. I suspect many of them used the
money they saved on another machine or some exotic hardwood.

Tom

loutent wrote:
> -snip-
>
> > Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front. That way,
> > you can add extensions to the outfeed, at a later time. The Shop Fox locks
> > in both the front and back and while my SF fence always locks parallel and
> > straight, it's still a PITA because I can't figure a way to make a outfeed
> > extension without some serious work.
>
> -snip again-
>
> The standard SF fence that came with my 1023SL locks only
> in the front. There were discussions here about the differences
> between the "standard" and "deluxe" fence. IIRC, most felt
> the standard was better in that the deluxe was too fussy to
> keep right. I am very happy with the standard - it is
> rock solid and true.
>
> Lou

I didn't realize that there was a Shop Fox fence that clamped in the
back, but indeed some of the saws in the catalog have a dual clamping
fence.

Most of the Grizzly table saws ship with the Shop Fox Classic or the
Aluma Classic fence. These are Bies clones that lock only in the front.
The Aluma Classic came on my G0444Z contractor saw. Thoe only
difference that I can see is the material on the face. Let's face it,
part of the reason the Bies is so good is its simplicity, which makes
it easy to copy. I'd bet good money that the Shop Fox copies are every
bit as good as the real Bies fences. The guide and clamping mechanism
is extremely solid, and it can be tuned to perfection. What else do you
need?

Tom

I hope to God that I'M using a tablesaw at 70.

Father is still using one at 72, and I'll admit that he doesnt' have
much stamina. But he can still rip timber. Just not much at a time.

I'm planning on being a woodworking geezer into my 80's.

Bill

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand
> name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
>

Raise your price range and you will be happier in the long run. Be prepared
to spend $750-$1000 and be done with it! spend less I will guarantee you
will be either upgrading parts of the saw you buy, (the fence perhaps), or
just simply replacing it all with yet another saw!
I went through this a few years ago and bought a Delta contractors saw. I am
pleased with the saw for the type of work I do and don't believe I will ever
replace it. The down side is that same saw in close to $1000 now.
Greg

I was in the same spot a few years ago; the craftsman wouldn't do anymore. I
picked up a used Unisaw from a cabinet shop closing down. Best thing I ever
did for my shop. I have also had good luck with Grizzly, so just get the
best you can afford at the time. Look for used equipment, you may find a
great buy.
Gary
"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul
>

Grizzly offers this in both a 220v 3 hp motor or the 2 hp 110v I would
think for my needs the 2 hp would be enough, or for the same price
should I go ahead and get the 220v 3 hp ?
Sure am glad I checked with you guys first and thanks to all of you
for the advice.....alot of money, but sounds like it will be worth it in
the long run.

Paul

-snip-

> Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front. That way,
> you can add extensions to the outfeed, at a later time. The Shop Fox locks
> in both the front and back and while my SF fence always locks parallel and
> straight, it's still a PITA because I can't figure a way to make a outfeed
> extension without some serious work.

-snip again-

The standard SF fence that came with my 1023SL locks only
in the front. There were discussions here about the differences
between the "standard" and "deluxe" fence. IIRC, most felt
the standard was better in that the deluxe was too fussy to
keep right. I am very happy with the standard - it is
rock solid and true.

Lou

Hi Paul,

Get the 3HP and don't look back. Do it right
and be done with it. I got the 3HP on my 1023SL.
With a good blade (like the Forrest WWII which I
finally sprung for), that saw goes through 8/4 oak
like "butter" (sorry).

Good luck!

Lou

In article <[email protected]>, Nascar
Raiders <[email protected]> wrote:

> Grizzly offers this in both a 220v 3 hp motor or the 2 hp 110v I would
> think for my needs the 2 hp would be enough, or for the same price
> should I go ahead and get the 220v 3 hp ?
> Sure am glad I checked with you guys first and thanks to all of you
> for the advice.....alot of money, but sounds like it will be worth it in
> the long run.
>
> Paul
>

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul
>

I to am going to jump on the Grizzly band wagon here. I purchased mine
about 3 years ago ( a 1023s) and am very happy with it. I also had a tight
budget at the time and thought I could get a decent table saw for 300 to 400
dollars....heh, silly me. Then I found the wreck and read many of the same
replies you are getting now. Save a bit longer and get a good cabinet saw.
took me about 3 hours to assemble the Grizz. It also passed the nickel test
on the first start! And yes, you can believe Grizzly's marketing.

Paul.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:55:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:

> While no law will achieve 100% compliance, a no-phone-while-driving law
> would certainly curtail much of the gabbing, just like mandatory seat
> belt and helmet laws have increased the usage of both. I realize that
> phones are more difficult for law enforcement officials to spot, as
> compared to seat belts and helmets so I suppose there will be plenty of
> scofflaws.

I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".

As with so many other things, it's the person, not the tool, that
determines good or bad.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:11:46 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>> As with so many other things, it's the person, not the tool, that
>> determines good or bad.
>>
> If it's "not the tool", how come we aren't allowed to carry loaded
> firearms in public? :)

In most civilized states, that specific thing _is_ allowed, and it has
reduced violent crime in every one of them.

> See what happens if you have a loaded gun in
> sight when stopped by a police officer...

Depends on if you're in an open-carry state, I guess? (shrug)

> ever tried to enjoy a quiet dinner
> with the wife in an otherwise cozy restaurant, only to have the mood
> broken by some loud mouthed bozo yakking away on his phone in the next
> booth?

There's another example. That guy is a rude loudmouth, regardless of
the fact that he's on a cellphone. The phone didn't turn him _into_ a
rude loudmouth.

World Traveler wrote:
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I was simply making the point that the quality of product is not driven by
> >the size of the TS price tag, but rather by the quality of the craftsman.
> >
> > If I believed the old "you have to have the $1000 TS" attitude, I would
> > never have tried this awesome hobby. Sure a $1000 TS would be nice, but
> > IT IS NOT NECESSARY.
> >
> [snip]
>
> Saying you need a $1000 TS to be a better woodworker is like saying if you
> buy a $1000 microphone you'll be a better singer --

I liken it to student violin or similar...initially, there's no need for
a Strad for a beginner, but if there is real talent, at some point the
tool can become a limiting factor...

Amused wrote:
>
...
> ... Anyone talking on a phone
> and driving a car is not devoting the appropriate amount attention to either
> activity.

But whether it's more or less than appropriate depends on which
activity, methinks... :)

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Sure, why not? I know of one guy that is 80 and still using his. You
aren't
> prejudiced against older people are you? Shees, I just turned 60 last
week
> so should I turn in my tools?

Absolutely you should turn them in. You're much too old for all those tools
Ed, so I'll help you to act your age by taking them off your hands. Let me
know where I can pick them up. And there's no need for you to feel obligated
to me. Throw in a case of beer and we'll call it even, ok?

Upscale wrote:

> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
>>badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
>>maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
>>cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".
>
>
> Maybe so, but I have to believe that cellphones are an undesirable
> distraction to anyone while driving. I remember once when I was standing in
> line in the little corner grocery store in my building. Some guy came in
> while talking to his girlfriend on his cellphone. By the way he looked
> around, I knew right away that he was looking for the cash machine. I
> watched him walk around the store looking for it while still talking on the
> phone. He passed by it three times before I pointed it out to him. If he'd
> have been driving a car at the time, I'd have run for cover.
>
>
or how about when the light turns green and the clueless driver ahead of
you sits stock still, engaged in conversation?

Dave

Dave Hinz wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:55:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>While no law will achieve 100% compliance, a no-phone-while-driving law
>>would certainly curtail much of the gabbing, just like mandatory seat
>>belt and helmet laws have increased the usage of both. I realize that
>>phones are more difficult for law enforcement officials to spot, as
>>compared to seat belts and helmets so I suppose there will be plenty of
>>scofflaws.
>
>
> I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
> badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
> maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
> cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".
>
> As with so many other things, it's the person, not the tool, that
> determines good or bad.
>
If it's "not the tool", how come we aren't allowed to carry loaded
firearms in public? :) See what happens if you have a loaded gun in
sight when stopped by a police officer... Some conveniences like phones
cause much frustration and harm. ever tried to enjoy a quiet dinner
with the wife in an otherwise cozy restaurant, only to have the mood
broken by some loud mouthed bozo yakking away on his phone in the next
booth?

Dave

B a r r y wrote:

> Upscale wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Maybe so, but I have to believe that cellphones are an undesirable
>> distraction to anyone while driving.
>
>
> What I find interesting is the range of ability to divide attention.
>
> On one hand, there are the people who can be in the here and now first,
> while talking on the phone second. On the other, are the folks who
> simply cannot do ANYTHING ELSE while they talk.
>
> The type and content of the conversation itself can move most people up
> or down the scale. Having enough self awareness to know when we've
> gotten into the latter category is key.
>
> If more folks could recognize, and/or accept where they fall on the
> scale, I'll bet we wouldn't need more laws.
>
> People who lean towards the scary category can get in trouble simply
> conversing with a passenger or listening to talk radio. They don't even
> need a phone.
when I get in heavy traffic, I've often asked my wife to be quiet, so I
can concentrate. She's learned I'm not being rude; just prudent.

Dave

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:49:25 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>David <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:

>>
>
>The only one I can control is me. If you find the cell phone
>distracting, let the call roll to voicemail, have a passenger take the
>call, or pull over safely. I think that what I do behind the wheel is
>the major factor in the safety of my trip, regardless of the driving
>habits of the others around me.
>
>As to influencing the behavior of young women, that's an area in which I
>have very little track record of success...
>
>Patriarch


We may be putting to much on cell phone use. Is that really any more
distractiong than one of those "100 button" CD player/radios or a
satellite navigation system?
The heater A/C has become a mind boggling thing to run.
New car dash boards look like the bridge of the star ship enterprise
these days.
Add a cup of hot coffee, a cigarette, an Egg McMuffin and two
screaming kids in the back seat ... it's no wonder we need air bags.

USED. I repeat, USED.

Whether you want to buy a $250 used contractors saw or a $600 used cabinet
saw depends on your budget and workshop.
I have bought a used table saw, radial arm saw, jointer, biscuit joiner, and
a whole mess of smaller shop tools. I am very satisfied with all of them.
(Sadly I had to buy a new planer; they just don't seem to be available used
in decent condition)
I have also bought 3 used houses, and even a used diamond in my wife's
engagement ring. Sounds cheap? Well she kinda enjoys it when everyone's
mouth drops open when they see it; and only she (and now all of you) know it
is used and cost 1/3rd the price of a new one.

Can't quite bring myself to buy a used car. The warranty seems more
important than the small price break.

USED

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:52:59 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:

>I was simply making the point that the quality of product is not driven by
>the size of the TS price tag, but rather by the quality of the craftsman.
>
>If I believed the old "you have to have the $1000 TS" attitude, I would
>never have tried this awesome hobby. Sure a $1000 TS would be nice, but IT
>IS NOT NECESSARY.
>
>> Checked out my web site did you?
>
>I was NOT referring to you, but the attitude of many.

=====================
Gosh I am waiting for my 1st social Secuirty check to hit the mailbox
in a few weeks... (qualifies me as old I guess)...and I still use a
Crapsman Bandsaw I bought new in the late 60's..(So I am not hung up
on high priced tools..).

BUT I have owned a Cabinet saw (Bies equipted) for about 15 years
now....great saw and fence... I love it....!

BUT

A year or so ago I ran into a Delta/Rockwell Contractors saw (with a
masonary blade mounted in it...???) at an estate auction... everyone
was bidding like crazy on household stuff and I was the only bidder
on the tablesaw so I walked out with it for 10 bucks....

After cleaning up the cast iron top and tossing the worn masonary
blade int he trash and buying a 100 dollar Forrest blade for it and
constructing a sled for it it is now my dead on accurate cross cutting
machine.... yea 10 buck saw and a 100 dollar blade...but what the
heck...

Honestly if the Rockwell/Delta or Delta/Rockwell had a Bies like fence
I honestly would not hesitate to use it for any cut I needed
done...its only disadvantage is in dust collection and a little less
power (both not that important to me)..

Bob G.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > > Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front.

Garbage.

> I didn't realize that there was a Shop Fox fence that clamped in the
> back, but indeed some of the saws in the catalog have a dual clamping
> fence.

Don't let a few opinions turn you away from a fence that locks down front
and back. I own an Excalibur that locks down both sides and I'll match it
cut for cut any day with a Bies or clone of a Bies fence. Bies fences just
happen to be more popular. That doesn't for one second mean that all others
are no good. Go and decide for yourself.

My Excalibur is easy to set up, maintains its accuracy quite well and
doesn't interfere in the least with an outfeed table. The space need for the
1" wide back rail doesn't effect outfeed to a table at all. There's
advantages and disadvantages (small ones in both cases) to both types.

> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.

Not necessary.

I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a champ.
I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out the other
side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own $750 saws.

I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
all they make is CRAP.

>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.

45 + 25 = 70

Think he will be using the saw at 70???






"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
>> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
>> was way less than what I thought it would be.
>> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
>> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
>> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
>> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
>> spend that much....wow.
>
> You are not ready for an upgrade. If you are considering stuff from Harbor
> Freight, you are not in the market for a piece of quality equipment.
> Neither is your budget.
>
> What you will get for that money is a saw that is better than what you
> have, but will leave you want in more in a year or two, maybe only a month
> or two. Save a bit more and get a Delta, Jet Grizzly, etc with a
> Beisemeyer or Unifence or equal. That will be the saw you will be using
> 25 years from now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will
> ever buy.
>

Patriarch wrote:

>
> Certainly not ALL bad drivers are old folks. But I don't seem to drive as
> well as I used to. Or maybe I simply pay better attention to my lack of
> paying attention these days. ;-)
>
>
>>>Again. I'm sorry I offended any seniors.
>>
>>Careful, you may get to be one of us some day.
>>
>
>
> Only if he's lucky.
>
> Patriarch
anyone on a cell phone is a bad driver. most of them are young women,
in my experience. I'd love to see laws passed in every state in the
union that would make it a crime to use a cell phone in a vehicle with
the engine running. Even if it's a hands-free model. I use a cell
phone while driving and find it a distraction. I'd be more than happy
to give up the privilege if it meant getting 100 million other
distracted drivers off of theirs.

Dave

Upscale wrote:

>
>
> Maybe so, but I have to believe that cellphones are an undesirable
> distraction to anyone while driving.

What I find interesting is the range of ability to divide attention.

On one hand, there are the people who can be in the here and now first,
while talking on the phone second. On the other, are the folks who
simply cannot do ANYTHING ELSE while they talk.

The type and content of the conversation itself can move most people up
or down the scale. Having enough self awareness to know when we've
gotten into the latter category is key.

If more folks could recognize, and/or accept where they fall on the
scale, I'll bet we wouldn't need more laws.

People who lean towards the scary category can get in trouble simply
conversing with a passenger or listening to talk radio. They don't even
need a phone.

I was simply making the point that the quality of product is not driven by
the size of the TS price tag, but rather by the quality of the craftsman.

If I believed the old "you have to have the $1000 TS" attitude, I would
never have tried this awesome hobby. Sure a $1000 TS would be nice, but IT
IS NOT NECESSARY.

> Checked out my web site did you?

I was NOT referring to you, but the attitude of many.

--


"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>>
>> Not necessary.
>>
>> I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a
>> champ. I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out
>> the other side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own
>> $750 saws.
>>
>> I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
>> all they make is CRAP.
>
> Checked out my web site did you? This is true of table saws, cameras,
> golf clubs, cookware, etc. You still need skill. Sounds like you have it;
> good for you. That said, it is more convenient, possibly faster, and yes,
> there is a feeling of satisfaction that comes from using quality accurate
> tools. I could drive a Yugo and get to work every day, but prefer my Buick
> with all the powered features.
>
> I like being able to move the Biesemeyer fence, line up the cursor, and
> lock it in place and KNOW is is going to cut at the stated dimension,
> every time. And know that if I rip 1, 10, 20, or 50 boards, it is till
> locked in the same place.
>
>
>>
>>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>>
>> 45 + 25 = 70
>>
>> Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>
> Sure, why not? I know of one guy that is 80 and still using his. You
> aren't prejudiced against older people are you? Shees, I just turned 60
> last week so should I turn in my tools?
> --
> Ed
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
>

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Absolutely you should turn them in. You're much too old for all those
> tools
> Ed, so I'll help you to act your age by taking them off your hands. Let me
> know where I can pick them up.

I drug them out by the curb. Get here soon because rain is expected
Tuesday.



> And there's no need for you to feel obligated
> to me. Throw in a case of beer and we'll call it even, ok?

Sorry, I'm really low on beer. How about a bottle of bourbon or a single
malt Scotch instead?

Nice web site by the way.

I'm no Krenov or Maloof, and I probably never will be, but I doubt my
projects would be any better if I had a Beisemeyer fence and a $1000 TS. I
think all I need is more experience, heck I think for a 3rd year rookie Im
not doing that bad. I don't think I or anyone NEEDS a $1000 TS unless you
do this for a living. For me its just a hobby and probably just a hobby for
the OP.

http://home.triad.rr.com/brianmelissa/woodworking_frames.htm





"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>>
>> Not necessary.
>>
>> I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a
>> champ. I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out
>> the other side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own
>> $750 saws.
>>
>> I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
>> all they make is CRAP.
>
> Checked out my web site did you? This is true of table saws, cameras,
> golf clubs, cookware, etc. You still need skill. Sounds like you have it;
> good for you. That said, it is more convenient, possibly faster, and yes,
> there is a feeling of satisfaction that comes from using quality accurate
> tools. I could drive a Yugo and get to work every day, but prefer my Buick
> with all the powered features.
>
> I like being able to move the Biesemeyer fence, line up the cursor, and
> lock it in place and KNOW is is going to cut at the stated dimension,
> every time. And know that if I rip 1, 10, 20, or 50 boards, it is till
> locked in the same place.
>
>
>>
>>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>>
>> 45 + 25 = 70
>>
>> Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>
> Sure, why not? I know of one guy that is 80 and still using his. You
> aren't prejudiced against older people are you? Shees, I just turned 60
> last week so should I turn in my tools?
> --
> Ed
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
>

[email protected] wrote:

>
> We may be putting to much on cell phone use. Is that really any more
> distractiong than one of those "100 button" CD player/radios or a
> satellite navigation system?
> The heater A/C has become a mind boggling thing to run.
> New car dash boards look like the bridge of the star ship enterprise
> these days.
> Add a cup of hot coffee, a cigarette, an Egg McMuffin and two
> screaming kids in the back seat ... it's no wonder we need air bags.
changing songs on my iPod as it sits on the floor is a bit of
distraction also. I have to lean quite a way over to reach it, taking my
eyes off the road. :)

While no law will achieve 100% compliance, a no-phone-while-driving law
would certainly curtail much of the gabbing, just like mandatory seat
belt and helmet laws have increased the usage of both. I realize that
phones are more difficult for law enforcement officials to spot, as
compared to seat belts and helmets so I suppose there will be plenty of
scofflaws.

Dave

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in news:DCqZe.1821$ua.126940
@twister.southeast.rr.com:

>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>
> 45 + 25 = 70
>
> Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>
Why not? I'm 60 now, and my Crapsman has served me pretty well for 20+
years of mostly inactivity. I earn my money doing research, and my boss is
almost 80, but still going very strong.

I may or may not get a "better" tablesaw sometime, who knows when I will
retire ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
<snip>
>> I don't think I or anyone NEEDS a $1000 TS unless you do this for a
>> living. For me its just a hobby and probably just a hobby for the
>> OP.
>
> Fine furniture was made before the power table saw. True, no one
> NEEDS a better one, but the op was looking to upgrade. If you are
> going to upgrade, get something that is truly better, more convenient,
> etc. I started out with a cheap Craftsman direct drive saw and it
> served me well for a couple of years. Not knowing how well I'd do or
> if I'd be serious abut the hobby, it was a good move. But, when I
> moved up, I went at least two notches. One frustration with the
> benchtop was cross cutting wide boards. Moving up to a full sized
> contractor model gave me a few more inches of space in front of hte
> blade. It was great.
>

My work improved signficantly when I rolled the Shopsmith into the corner,
and brought in a Unisaw. Fences stayed square. Blades ran true. Arbors
tilted properly. I could cut heavier, longer & wider stock.

I also took a few classes, read a lot of posts here, hung out with some
remarkable folks in the woodworking club, and stopped working 90 hour weeks
in a mind- and body-killing job.

The tool was no longer the limiting factor, and I am fortunate that
affording the tool was/is not a problem. Now, when I screw up, I know
_exactly_ whose fault it is.

Patriarch

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Sorry. I didn't intend to offend anyone. I just figured you oldies
>> can't drive so how can you still use a table saw? :) ---JUST
>> KIDDING!!!
>
> I just renewed my license for another 6 years. They really should
> have a test to get some of the really bad old people off the road.
> Some are down right scary.

Certainly not ALL bad drivers are old folks. But I don't seem to drive as
well as I used to. Or maybe I simply pay better attention to my lack of
paying attention these days. ;-)

>
>>
>> Again. I'm sorry I offended any seniors.
>
> Careful, you may get to be one of us some day.
>

Only if he's lucky.

Patriarch

David <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Patriarch wrote:
>
>>
>> Certainly not ALL bad drivers are old folks. But I don't seem to
>> drive as well as I used to. Or maybe I simply pay better attention
>> to my lack of paying attention these days. ;-)
>>
>>
>>>>Again. I'm sorry I offended any seniors.
>>>
>>>Careful, you may get to be one of us some day.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Only if he's lucky.
>>
>> Patriarch
> anyone on a cell phone is a bad driver. most of them are young women,
> in my experience. I'd love to see laws passed in every state in the
> union that would make it a crime to use a cell phone in a vehicle with
> the engine running. Even if it's a hands-free model. I use a cell
> phone while driving and find it a distraction. I'd be more than happy
> to give up the privilege if it meant getting 100 million other
> distracted drivers off of theirs.
>
> Dave
>

The only one I can control is me. If you find the cell phone
distracting, let the call roll to voicemail, have a passenger take the
call, or pull over safely. I think that what I do behind the wheel is
the major factor in the safety of my trip, regardless of the driving
habits of the others around me.

As to influencing the behavior of young women, that's an area in which I
have very little track record of success...

Patriarch

Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I don't have quick access to those statistics, but I am guessing that
> if there really was a significant increase it would be all over the
> news. Human beings really are remarkably good at multi-tasking.
>
>

I don't have access to the stats either .. but I've seen a couple of
pretty well controlled experimental studies. The one that sticks out in
my mind was done with drivers on a closed track, and sensors to monitor
head and eye position.

The drivers did the course with no/minimal distraction, then while
talking casually on the phone, then while being asked over the phone to
do some very simple calculations.

The difference in awareness (by virtue of eye movement) was pretty
remarkable.

My takeaway? There's alot of 'close calls' (pun intended) caused by cell
phone use. (And other distraction, too -- radio, kids in the backseat,
what-have-you).

Me, -- I don't talk on the cell while driving; and since my safety
depends at least somewhat on the ability of those driving around me -- I
don't think they should be either.

--
Regards,

JT
Speaking only for myself....

Dave Hinz wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:55:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>While no law will achieve 100% compliance, a no-phone-while-driving law
>>would certainly curtail much of the gabbing, just like mandatory seat
>>belt and helmet laws have increased the usage of both. I realize that
>>phones are more difficult for law enforcement officials to spot, as
>>compared to seat belts and helmets so I suppose there will be plenty of
>>scofflaws.
>
>
> I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
> badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
> maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
> cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".
>
> As with so many other things, it's the person, not the tool, that
> determines good or bad.
>
Actually, I see drivers on cell phones while I'm sitting at an
intersection. they aren't all driving badly, but nearly every young
female driver is on a phone. I'm in CA. maybe it's not as bad
elsewhere in the country??

Dave

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul
>

You need to get upwards towards a thousand dollars ready to go. IMO Grizzly
is the best bang for the buck, right now, but that can be legitimately
debated. Watch the fence. The Shop Fox fences are adequate, and will give
good service, but if you could scrape together a bit more money, I'd upgrade
to Biesemeyer or a one of the clones.

www.grizzly.com

Hint: I have the 1023ZX. It ships at right at a 500 pounds. The sheer
mass of that saw dampens vibration, and allows even smoother cuts. However,
as long as you jump to the "cabinet" saw nomenclature, you're probably going
to get better performance over the "contractor" set up. That said, the
high end contractor's saws will give essentially the same performance as a
good cabinet saw, but they end up costing essentially the same, too.

Hint: Figure out where you're going to set that saw and then take the time
to stabilize and level it perfectly. You can buy trolleys to move them
around, (I have one), but a solid, well stabilized saw really is the goal.

Hint: The saw blade is a limiting factor on any saw. The better the blade,
the better the cut, and while it's not always a direct relationship
(!!!!!!), generally the more expensive the blade the better the cut.

Matching the blade to the cuts to be made, is worthwhile, too. I have one
super-dooper odd ball blade, specifically designed to cut plastics and
melamine. It works marvously on those materials. (It's some kind of triple
bevel setup. With care feeding of stock, I can get perfectly smooth results
with little or no chipping.) Doesn't handle everyday crosscut/rip duties
worth squat. The top line blades are probably going to exceed $100 in cost.
You can get by with less and I certainly do, but I keep one or two of the
top line blades in reserve when the job calls for it.

Hint: I like blade stabilizers. They're cheap.

Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front. That way,
you can add extensions to the outfeed, at a later time. The Shop Fox locks
in both the front and back and while my SF fence always locks parallel and
straight, it's still a PITA because I can't figure a way to make a outfeed
extension without some serious work.

http://www.woodpeck.com/tslssystem.html This is a helluva of a system, but
it still suffers from the same shortcomings as the Shop Fox fence, i.e.
front and back lock. On the other hand, I have a Incra miter gauge that is
worth every penny, I paid for it.

http://www.biesemeyer.com/home_fence/index.htm I'm going out on a limb
here, but this is probably the "gold standard" in fences, right now.
(Alternate opinions are certainly possible here. In fact, I'd welcome some
alternate opinions.)

While I don't know where, there *has* to be some kind of commercial
relationship between Shop Fox and Grizzly.

James...
It's free advise, so you know what it's worth......nothing.

"Paul Rand" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
And yes, you can believe Grizzly's marketing.
>
> Paul.

I do not think ya even need to listen to Grizzly's marketing. You can just
listen from their customers. I have had nothing but the best service every
time I have dealt with Grizzly. They do seem to come as a highly respected
outfit as well.

To be honest, I have not heard a bad word about them (although I am sure
there are some out there).

I have three items from them over 500lbs each. All three made it here the
next day after ordering. I returned one freight item and it was as painless
as possible, actually almost a joy after dealing with some other outfits.

Chris

Dave Hinz wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:55:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>While no law will achieve 100% compliance, a no-phone-while-driving law
>>would certainly curtail much of the gabbing, just like mandatory seat
>>belt and helmet laws have increased the usage of both. I realize that
>>phones are more difficult for law enforcement officials to spot, as
>>compared to seat belts and helmets so I suppose there will be plenty of
>>scofflaws.
>
>
> I'm guessing that you only notice the cellphone users who are driving
> badly; the ones who aren't, you don't see, because they're _not_. So,
> maybe it's a case of "bad drivers are bad drivers" rather than "a
> cellphone makes a good driver become a bad driver".
>
> As with so many other things, it's the person, not the tool, that
> determines good or bad.
>

Personally I notice a lot more than just bad drivers talking on the cell
while driving. What I think of most often is when you see a
mother/father or even worse both in a car with a kid, two or three going
down the road and the parent(s) is babbling away when they could, or
in my opinion should, be interacting with their children. Playing word
games, alphabet on the signs, "how was your day johnny?", and so on. Of
course no one knows if they already had these conversations, the call is
a brief one and interupting the word games, and so on. That said it
seems more an more with in car TV, DVDs, cell, etc. parent/child
interaction is taking a back seat to a peaceful car ride or a call from
the office.

I have always thought they should offer a cheaper option than the in car
DVD player. An IV bag could simply hang on the dry cleaning hook in the
car/SUV and just jack your kids into a slow drip of morphine. Tie a
diaper around their chin to catch the droole from landing on the leather
seats and just drive til' your hearts content. It would surely be
cheaper than a in car DVD and lets face it, it would serve the same
exact purpose.

;)
Mark

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was simply making the point that the quality of product is not driven by
>the size of the TS price tag, but rather by the quality of the craftsman.
>
> If I believed the old "you have to have the $1000 TS" attitude, I would
> never have tried this awesome hobby. Sure a $1000 TS would be nice, but
> IT IS NOT NECESSARY.
>
[snip]

Saying you need a $1000 TS to be a better woodworker is like saying if you
buy a $1000 microphone you'll be a better singer --

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The is also a huge difference between a bench top saw (which he has now)
> and
> a contractor's saw.
>
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> I have to rethink my original answer. I think the others are saying the
>> same as well. There is a huge difference between another contractor saw,
>> and a cabinet saw,
>

Very true. I tend to think of them as the same (benchtop and contractor),
even though they really not.

Chris

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul

I have to rethink my original answer. I think the others are saying the
same as well. There is a huge difference between another contractor saw,
and a cabinet saw, and your price range is a little low for a cabinet. I
thought it was close to a 1023 Grizzly, but my memory is getting weak. At
that price you are still looking at contractor style saw. There are plenty
of options out there, and Grizzly is still one of them. Grizzly does seem
to prevail even more when it comes to cabinet saws.

I would use what you have now and save for a cabinet saw, or look for a
used one local. For your price range you could get a decent used cabinet
saw. FWIIW cabinet saws always seem to have a higher resale value if you
plan to bail.

If you are really going to use the thing, a cabinet saw is the way to go.

Chris

[email protected] wrote:
> I hope to God that I'M using a tablesaw at 70.
>
> Father is still using one at 72, and I'll admit that he doesnt' have
> much stamina. But he can still rip timber. Just not much at a time.
>
> I'm planning on being a woodworking geezer into my 80's.
>
> Bill
>

My Dad will turn 82 this next month. Been living alone since his
wife passed away in Jan.2001. This last June, he calls and tells me to
come get his tools, he has sold his house and is moving into an assisted
living facility. So I rent a big van and drive out to Arizona from Iowa
and get him settled and the van loaded with all his tools. Now let me
tell you that this van is squatting when we are finished loading it, it
is full.
Two weeks ago I get this letter from my Dad telling me he has found
love again with a woman about 60 years old living in the same facility
and they have a lot in common, been dating up a storm, blah, blah, blah.
Now I just know that they are gonna get married, settle down, buy a
house together and Dad will want his tools back.
Well, I will have room in *my* shop again.

"Amused" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> While I don't know where, there *has* to be some kind of commercial
> relationship between Shop Fox and Grizzly.
>
They are the same. IIRC correctly Shop Fox and Grizzly list the same
address in Washington.

Chris

> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul

As you can see, there are many replies. All good advice too.

I will take a 2HP single phase 220 volt saw over a 3HP 3-phase if the
2HP has a good fence and runs vibration-free and has a flat top.
Precision is more important to me than power.
A cabinet saw with a Biesemeyer is what I would buy. I may be wrong, but
it seems to me that a cabinet saw is easier to set up for dust
collection?
The contractor saws often have stamped steel wings.. or the open-webbed
type of cast iron wings. I don't like those. I absolutely hate the look
of the stands.
Which brand of cabinet saw? After all the stuff I have been reading from
this credible bunch in this news-group, I would not hesitate to buy a
Grizzly. Personally I'd buy a General, but that's because I'm a
flag-waving damn proud Canadian. In other words, don't listen to me.
General does build a quality product. No doubt it's worth that little
extra money.

For What It's Worth.

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Grizzly offers this in both a 220v 3 hp motor or the 2 hp 110v I would
> think for my needs the 2 hp would be enough, or for the same price
> should I go ahead and get the 220v 3 hp ?
> Sure am glad I checked with you guys first and thanks to all of you
> for the advice.....alot of money, but sounds like it will be worth it in
> the long run.
>
> Paul
>
The Grizzly is a good choice, and you will never need to buy another saw
again. In fact, your descendants can keep using it long after you are gone.
Jim

"Bob G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Honestly if the Rockwell/Delta or Delta/Rockwell had a Bies like fence
> I honestly would not hesitate to use it for any cut I needed
> done...its only disadvantage is in dust collection and a little less
> power (both not that important to me)..

Why can't you add an aftermarket fence (like a Bies) to the Rockwell? I've
got a 30 year old Rockwell/Beaver that I added an Excalibur fence to. Lots
of iron on the side of the table top to drill mounting holes if necessary.
The existing holes on my Rockwell/Beaver were fine for mounting without my
having to drill.

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>
> Not necessary.
>
> I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a
> champ. I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out
> the other side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own
> $750 saws.
>
> I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
> all they make is CRAP.

Checked out my web site did you? This is true of table saws, cameras, golf
clubs, cookware, etc. You still need skill. Sounds like you have it; good
for you. That said, it is more convenient, possibly faster, and yes, there
is a feeling of satisfaction that comes from using quality accurate tools.
I could drive a Yugo and get to work every day, but prefer my Buick with all
the powered features.

I like being able to move the Biesemeyer fence, line up the cursor, and lock
it in place and KNOW is is going to cut at the stated dimension, every time.
And know that if I rip 1, 10, 20, or 50 boards, it is till locked in the
same place.


>
>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>
> 45 + 25 = 70
>
> Think he will be using the saw at 70???

Sure, why not? I know of one guy that is 80 and still using his. You aren't
prejudiced against older people are you? Shees, I just turned 60 last week
so should I turn in my tools?
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Hint: You DON'T need to spend a thousand dollars on your saw.

Get a contractors saw with a CAST IRON TOP. I got mine for around 300 bucks
americano. Works like a champ.

My shop and some older projects:

http://home.triad.rr.com/brianmelissa/woodworking_frames.htm





"Amused" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
>> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
>> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
>> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
>> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
>> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
>> was way less than what I thought it would be.
>> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
>> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
>> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
>> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
>> spend that much....wow.
>> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
>> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
>> suggestions.
>> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
>> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> You need to get upwards towards a thousand dollars ready to go. IMO
> Grizzly is the best bang for the buck, right now, but that can be
> legitimately debated. Watch the fence. The Shop Fox fences are adequate,
> and will give good service, but if you could scrape together a bit more
> money, I'd upgrade to Biesemeyer or a one of the clones.
>
> www.grizzly.com
>
> Hint: I have the 1023ZX. It ships at right at a 500 pounds. The sheer
> mass of that saw dampens vibration, and allows even smoother cuts.
> However, as long as you jump to the "cabinet" saw nomenclature, you're
> probably going to get better performance over the "contractor" set up.
> That said, the high end contractor's saws will give essentially the same
> performance as a good cabinet saw, but they end up costing essentially the
> same, too.
>
> Hint: Figure out where you're going to set that saw and then take the
> time to stabilize and level it perfectly. You can buy trolleys to move
> them around, (I have one), but a solid, well stabilized saw really is the
> goal.
>
> Hint: The saw blade is a limiting factor on any saw. The better the
> blade, the better the cut, and while it's not always a direct relationship
> (!!!!!!), generally the more expensive the blade the better the cut.
>
> Matching the blade to the cuts to be made, is worthwhile, too. I have one
> super-dooper odd ball blade, specifically designed to cut plastics and
> melamine. It works marvously on those materials. (It's some kind of
> triple bevel setup. With care feeding of stock, I can get perfectly
> smooth results with little or no chipping.) Doesn't handle everyday
> crosscut/rip duties worth squat. The top line blades are probably going
> to exceed $100 in cost. You can get by with less and I certainly do, but I
> keep one or two of the top line blades in reserve when the job calls for
> it.
>
> Hint: I like blade stabilizers. They're cheap.
>
> Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front. That way,
> you can add extensions to the outfeed, at a later time. The Shop Fox
> locks in both the front and back and while my SF fence always locks
> parallel and straight, it's still a PITA because I can't figure a way to
> make a outfeed extension without some serious work.
>
> http://www.woodpeck.com/tslssystem.html This is a helluva of a system,
> but it still suffers from the same shortcomings as the Shop Fox fence,
> i.e. front and back lock. On the other hand, I have a Incra miter gauge
> that is worth every penny, I paid for it.
>
> http://www.biesemeyer.com/home_fence/index.htm I'm going out on a limb
> here, but this is probably the "gold standard" in fences, right now.
> (Alternate opinions are certainly possible here. In fact, I'd welcome
> some alternate opinions.)
>
> While I don't know where, there *has* to be some kind of commercial
> relationship between Shop Fox and Grizzly.
>
> James...
> It's free advise, so you know what it's worth......nothing.
>

The is also a huge difference between a bench top saw (which he has now) and
a contractor's saw.

"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I have to rethink my original answer. I think the others are saying the
> same as well. There is a huge difference between another contractor saw,
> and a cabinet saw,

Why not? Our DIL bid on a bandsaw owned by an 84 year old man that
FINALLY was giving up woodworking. At 76 I'm hoping to get further
than he!

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:31:15 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:

>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>
>Not necessary.
>
>I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a champ.
>I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out the other
>side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own $750 saws.
>
>I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
>all they make is CRAP.
>
>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>
>45 + 25 = 70
>
>Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
>>> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
>>> was way less than what I thought it would be.
>>> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
>>> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
>>> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
>>> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
>>> spend that much....wow.
>>
>> You are not ready for an upgrade. If you are considering stuff from Harbor
>> Freight, you are not in the market for a piece of quality equipment.
>> Neither is your budget.
>>
>> What you will get for that money is a saw that is better than what you
>> have, but will leave you want in more in a year or two, maybe only a month
>> or two. Save a bit more and get a Delta, Jet Grizzly, etc with a
>> Beisemeyer or Unifence or equal. That will be the saw you will be using
>> 25 years from now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will
>> ever buy.
>>
>

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.

You are not ready for an upgrade. If you are considering stuff from Harbor
Freight, you are not in the market for a piece of quality equipment.
Neither is your budget.

What you will get for that money is a saw that is better than what you have,
but will leave you want in more in a year or two, maybe only a month or two.
Save a bit more and get a Delta, Jet Grizzly, etc with a Beisemeyer or
Unifence or equal. That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from
now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.

Definitely, if you have 220 power/socket available and the price
difference is indeed 0, get the 3hp.

John

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:18:17 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Grizzly offers this in both a 220v 3 hp motor or the 2 hp 110v I would
>> think for my needs the 2 hp would be enough, or for the same price
>> should I go ahead and get the 220v 3 hp ?
>> Sure am glad I checked with you guys first and thanks to all of you
>> for the advice.....alot of money, but sounds like it will be worth it in
>> the long run.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>The Grizzly is a good choice, and you will never need to buy another saw
>again. In fact, your descendants can keep using it long after you are gone.
>Jim
>

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> Nice web site by the way.

Thanks,
>
> I'm no Krenov or Maloof, and I probably never will be, but I doubt my
> projects would be any better if I had a Beisemeyer fence and a $1000 TS.
> I think all I need is more experience,

Absolutely



> I don't think I or anyone NEEDS a $1000 TS unless you do this for a
> living. For me its just a hobby and probably just a hobby for the OP.

Fine furniture was made before the power table saw. True, no one NEEDS a
better one, but the op was looking to upgrade. If you are going to upgrade,
get something that is truly better, more convenient, etc. I started out with
a cheap Craftsman direct drive saw and it served me well for a couple of
years. Not knowing how well I'd do or if I'd be serious abut the hobby, it
was a good move. But, when I moved up, I went at least two notches. One
frustration with the benchtop was cross cutting wide boards. Moving up to a
full sized contractor model gave me a few more inches of space in front of
hte blade. It was great.


>
> http://home.triad.rr.com/brianmelissa/woodworking_frames.htm
Nice work.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:31:15 +0000, wrote:

>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>
No affiliation, not even a customer, but here's a link I stashed away:
http://my.execpc.com/~rimco/

The guy sells second hand woodworking equipment. His list shows a unisaw
for $750. Obviously not a good site if the OP doesn't live in Milwaukee,
but there're bound to be similar outfits in OP's neck of the woods.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

stoutman wrote:
>>now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>
>
> Not necessary.
>
> I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a champ.
> I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out the other
> side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own $750 saws.
>
> I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
> all they make is CRAP.
>
>
>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>
>
> 45 + 25 = 70
>
> Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
>>>I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
>>>was way less than what I thought it would be.
>>> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
>>>and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
>>>of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
>>>call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
>>>spend that much....wow.
>>
>>You are not ready for an upgrade. If you are considering stuff from Harbor
>>Freight, you are not in the market for a piece of quality equipment.
>>Neither is your budget.
>>
>>What you will get for that money is a saw that is better than what you
>>have, but will leave you want in more in a year or two, maybe only a month
>>or two. Save a bit more and get a Delta, Jet Grizzly, etc with a
>>Beisemeyer or Unifence or equal. That will be the saw you will be using
>>25 years from now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will
>>ever buy.
>>
>
>
>
I have a home made table saw, which I made about 25 years ago. It has
had many modifications, but has served me well. The original had a
wishing machine motor and this was only replaced about 2 years ago.
I dream of a $1500 table saw but we make do with what we have and what
we can afford. There always seems to be another better and or more
practical use for that few extra bob when it comes along.
I have made to many pieces of furniture with this old beast to count,
and one day, when I do get my dream saw I think I will be very sad to
see her finally go.
John

Sorry. I didn't intend to offend anyone. I just figured you oldies can't
drive so how can you still use a table saw? :) ---JUST KIDDING!!!

Again. I'm sorry I offended any seniors.



"nospambob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why not? Our DIL bid on a bandsaw owned by an 84 year old man that
> FINALLY was giving up woodworking. At 76 I'm hoping to get further
> than he!
>
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:31:15 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>>> now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will ever buy.
>>
>>Not necessary.
>>
>>I have a Delta contractors saw I spend around $300 on. Works like a
>>champ.
>>I'm willing to bet the stuff (finished furniture) that comes out the
>>other
>>side of my saw is better if not equally good as those that own $750 saws.
>>
>>I have been to some websites of woodworkers that have the $750 + saws and
>>all they make is CRAP.
>>
>>>That will be the saw you will be using 25 years from now.
>>
>>45 + 25 = 70
>>
>>Think he will be using the saw at 70???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
>>>> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their
>>>> selection
>>>> was way less than what I thought it would be.
>>>> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
>>>> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
>>>> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what
>>>> they
>>>> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
>>>> spend that much....wow.
>>>
>>> You are not ready for an upgrade. If you are considering stuff from
>>> Harbor
>>> Freight, you are not in the market for a piece of quality equipment.
>>> Neither is your budget.
>>>
>>> What you will get for that money is a saw that is better than what you
>>> have, but will leave you want in more in a year or two, maybe only a
>>> month
>>> or two. Save a bit more and get a Delta, Jet Grizzly, etc with a
>>> Beisemeyer or Unifence or equal. That will be the saw you will be using
>>> 25 years from now. Plan to spend $750 and up for the last saw you will
>>> ever buy.
>>>
>>

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sorry. I didn't intend to offend anyone. I just figured you oldies can't
> drive so how can you still use a table saw? :) ---JUST KIDDING!!!

I just renewed my license for another 6 years. They really should have a
test to get some of the really bad old people off the road. Some are down
right scary.

>
> Again. I'm sorry I offended any seniors.

Careful, you may get to be one of us some day.

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm 45 and just a novice woodworker and have finally got some extra
> cash to rid myself of my "bench top" table saw that the wife got me for
> Christmas 8 yrs ago....boy I think I did things on that thing that would
> amaze even you pro woodworkers.
> The wife says I deserve an upgrade (gee thanks hunny..lol) Anyway
> I've checked at my local Harbor Freight and to be honest their selection
> was way less than what I thought it would be.
> I checked at Sears and of course they stock the CRAFTSMAN brand name,
> and have what I thought to be a pretty good selection in my price range
> of about $500.00 but not more than $600.00....now they do have what they
> call the "professional" model at $1000.00 but I really don't want to
> spend that much....wow.
> Anyway, if you guys/gals could give me some sort of guidance on this
> I'd love to hear the pro's and con's.of what you think, or your
> suggestions.
> You can mail me directly of post here and I'll check for
> replies....thanks so very much for your help.
>
> Paul
>

At that price range I would suggest looking at Grizzly. (www.grizzly.com)
Lot of machine for the money and excellent support. I am sure there are
others, this would just be my first suggestion. I am pretty sure you will
be hard pressed to find anyone here that would speak bad of Grizzly.

Better yet, if you can keep an eye on Grizzly they do have some pretty
significant sales from time to time.

Chris

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:40:15 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>We may be putting to much on cell phone use. Is that really any more
>distractiong than one of those "100 button" CD player/radios or a
>satellite navigation system?
>The heater A/C has become a mind boggling thing to run.
>New car dash boards look like the bridge of the star ship enterprise
>these days.
>Add a cup of hot coffee, a cigarette, an Egg McMuffin and two
>screaming kids in the back seat ... it's no wonder we need air bags.

How much have accident rates risen in the last few years?

I drop my kids off at school daily and I estimate that at least a
third if not more of the drivers are on their cell phones throughout
the whole process. (my question is "who do you call at 7:00 in the
morning for a long chat?") If driving while on your cell phone is as
dangerous as all the research indicates we should be seeing dramatic
increases in accident rates.

No harm, no foul.

I don't have quick access to those statistics, but I am guessing that
if there really was a significant increase it would be all over the
news. Human beings really are remarkably good at multi-tasking.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Nascar Raiders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Grizzly offers this in both a 220v 3 hp motor or the 2 hp 110v I would
> think for my needs the 2 hp would be enough, or for the same price
> should I go ahead and get the 220v 3 hp ?
> Sure am glad I checked with you guys first and thanks to all of you
> for the advice.....alot of money, but sounds like it will be worth it in
> the long run.
>
> Paul

I have the 3hp and am happy with it. Although I have a buddy who has the
2HP version and is more than happy with it. I think he just wimped out on
running the 220v. He does have some trouble keeping the breaker from
popping. More than reason enough for me to get the 3hp 220v version.

Chris

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:49:25 -0500, Patriarch
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>David <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected]:
>
>>>
>>
>>The only one I can control is me. If you find the cell phone
>>distracting, let the call roll to voicemail, have a passenger take the
>>call, or pull over safely. I think that what I do behind the wheel is
>>the major factor in the safety of my trip, regardless of the driving
>>habits of the others around me.
>>
>>As to influencing the behavior of young women, that's an area in which I
>>have very little track record of success...
>>
>>Patriarch
>
>
> We may be putting to much on cell phone use. Is that really any more
> distractiong than one of those "100 button" CD player/radios or a
> satellite navigation system?
> The heater A/C has become a mind boggling thing to run.
> New car dash boards look like the bridge of the star ship enterprise
> these days.
> Add a cup of hot coffee, a cigarette, an Egg McMuffin and two
> screaming kids in the back seat ... it's no wonder we need air bags.

Nope.

While there are certainly bad drivers that don't use phones, ANY telephone
usage, including ear phones and speaker phones, dramatically reduces ANY
driver's attention, and ultimately, ability. It's not the instrument,
itself, it's the nature of the activity. Listening to the radio is
essentially a passive activity. By it's very nature, talking on a phone is
an active distraction and ironically, the more important the phone call, the
greater the distraction.

It's not gender-specific or age-specific, either. Anyone talking on a phone
and driving a car is not devoting the appropriate amount attention to either
activity.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >
>> > > Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front.
>
> Garbage.
>
>> I didn't realize that there was a Shop Fox fence that clamped in the
>> back, but indeed some of the saws in the catalog have a dual clamping
>> fence.
>
> Don't let a few opinions turn you away from a fence that locks down front
> and back. I own an Excalibur that locks down both sides and I'll match it
> cut for cut any day with a Bies or clone of a Bies fence. Bies fences just
> happen to be more popular. That doesn't for one second mean that all
> others
> are no good. Go and decide for yourself.
>
> My Excalibur is easy to set up, maintains its accuracy quite well and
> doesn't interfere in the least with an outfeed table. The space need for
> the
> 1" wide back rail doesn't effect outfeed to a table at all. There's
> advantages and disadvantages (small ones in both cases) to both types.
>

The original observation was mine. If you'll re-read the whole thing,
you'll see that I commented that my Shop Fox fence always locked down
straight and parallel, which is what it's suppose to do. I have absolutely
no complaint about the fence itself.

My observation was that with any fence, (I've ever seen) that locked in
both the front and back, it is extremely difficult to build extension tables
out the back of the saw. With my fence, there with simply have to be a six
inch gap between the saw and any extension table I might create.

(I was unaware that Shop Fox, at least now, has a fence that locks only in
the front.)

My observation was that I wish I had popped for a few extra dollars and
bought the Biesemeyer......

Clear now.