Picked up a commission recently to build a partition wall in my local pub.
The pub is an oak timber-framed wattle-and-daub building dating to 1790.
The landlord wants the new wall framed and half-panelled in oak, to fit in
with the original timbering. I reckoned that if he wanted air-dried stuff
of those dimensions (5"x 5" stiles, 4" x 4" rails) it would cost him an arm
and a leg. We talked it over and he decided that, since the original would
have been built with green oak, he'd go with that - 13.50 GBP per cu ft
(=12 bd ft for you Yanks!) beats 50.00GBP, after all.
I pointed out that green oak would warp, twist, bow, split and crack, but
he's happy, with that, since that's what the original timbers did.
Finally got the timber delivered Friday from a local sawmill. Beautiful
stuff, but summer-felled wood, so it really is wet. I decided , through a
combination of nostalgia and respect for the place and the timber, that I'd
do the job the old way, so for the last couple of days, I've been working
out in the pub car-park on trestles, hand-sawing out huge tusk tenons and
chopping out 5" x 1 1/4" through mortices in big timber with a F-O big
mallet and chisel.. We've had a heat-wave here in UK and it really has been
glorious weather for working outside.
I've been amazed at the amount of interest it's generated among the
customers ( passed out quite a few business cards!) - the number of people
who've commented that it's good to see a man working in traditional fashion
has been really gratifying. (I forebore to comment that if it wasn't for my
Service Pension, I couldn't afford to do it without power tools!)
It's the first time I've worked green oak. What have I learned? My first
lesson was that my Western hand-saws are useless in timber this wet. 1/2"
into the timber and they bind to the extent that they are almost unusable.
Make no mistake, they're good saws, well-set and sharpened and well-lubed
with candle-wax. My Japanese Ryoba, on the other hand, romped through it
with next to no effort, ripping or cross-cutting, and with a finish and
precision I simply can't achieve with Western saws. Few people over here
outside of the woodworking fraternity have heard of them, so they generated
a lot of interest as well.
Second lesson, although it's one I should have foreseen, is that wet oak and
ferrous tools produce a blue-black stain better than any ink I've seen. I'm
typing this with midnight blue fingers that have been scrubbed and
scotch-brited until the skin goes thin.
Third lesson is that it's good to go back to basics, if you can afford the
time to indulge yourself. There's a lot of therapy in hand-chopping big
mortices. You use up a lot of aggression. Being able to take the time to
talk to interested passers-by and stop occasionally for a well-earned smoke
and a drink, enjoying the sun on your back and the birds singing helps as
well.
Fourth lesson is that green oak cuts like hard cheese, with edge-tools.
Sinking these mortices is a real pleasure, with clean, crisp corners and
smooth faces.
Fifth lesson was that I dug out my old wooden jack plane for cleaning up the
timber. I'd forgotten how much lighter, slicker and easier a well-tuned
wooden plane is to use over a Bailey-pattern #5 or #7.
Downsides - well, an 8ft length of 5" x 5" green oak is heavy. Firkin'
heavy. Easy to trap your fingers when you're rolling it around on the
workbench or saw-horses doing your marking out.
The other downside - for the timber, at least - is that it's hot and dry
here at the moment. So I need to get all this timber cleaned up, jointed,
framed and secure before it starts to warp, twist etc. I've given myself
until Wednesday. I'll let you know how it goes.
Regards,
Frank (Probably the happiest man anywhere at the moment.)
Pictures please!!!!
George wrote:
> Now you understand the reason that old crosscuts and pitsaws had such coarse
> teeth!
>
> Problem is, the friction of the saw's passage heats and swells the wet
> fibers, closing the cut. The Ryoba, with the cut on the pull, does not have
> to be as broad in section, and so heats less.
>
> "Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Finally got the timber delivered Friday from a local sawmill. Beautiful
> > stuff, but summer-felled wood, so it really is wet.
>
> > It's the first time I've worked green oak. What have I learned? My first
> > lesson was that my Western hand-saws are useless in timber this wet. 1/2"
> > into the timber and they bind to the extent that they are almost unusable.
> > Make no mistake, they're good saws, well-set and sharpened and well-lubed
> > with candle-wax. My Japanese Ryoba, on the other hand, romped through it
> > with next to no effort, ripping or cross-cutting, and with a finish and
> > precision I simply can't achieve with Western saws. Few people over here
> > outside of the woodworking fraternity have heard of them, so they
> generated
> > a lot of interest as well.
Thanks for the great post! I'm wondering, how did the 19th century
craftsmen make these tenons; did they also use Japanese pull-style
saws, or were western handsaws made differently back then, or did they
just struggle with them?
"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Picked up a commission recently to build a partition wall in my local pub.
> The pub is an oak timber-framed wattle-and-daub building dating to 1790.
-snip-
. I'll let you know how it goes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank (Probably the happiest man anywhere at the moment.)
Thanks for sharing the happiness.
"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Picked up a commission recently to build a partition wall in my local
> pub. The pub is an oak timber-framed wattle-and-daub building dating
> to 1790.
By timber-framing standards, that (1790) is way past the glory days
of the craft, which hit it's high points in the 1300 and 1400's
(my uncle, now retired, used to restore such buildings). If you
ever get the chance to look at the details of a medieval timbered
building, it's well worth it. Some of the complex dovetails and
interlocking joints they used are quite astounding. Knowledgable
folk can date a building quite closely by looking at the joints.
John
Consider it done, Kim - several times over! (hic!)
Cheers
Frank
"Kim Whitmyre" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, frank.mcvey2
> @btopenworld.com says...
> > (Probably the happiest man anywhere at the moment.)
> >
> >
> Glad to hear it, Frank! Hoist a pint for me!
>
> Kim
Hi, Tim,
I'm off up to Scotland for a couple of weeks from Thursday, but I'll be back
around the 7th of August. The pub is The Plough at Greetham in the county of
Rutland, about 30 miles down the A1 from you at Newark. I should be in the
process of doing a set of fitted wardrobes in the same place (150 yo
reclaimed pine - lovely stuff) then, so please drop in and we'll have a
beer. Not bitter, mind - I'm a lager lout!
Bring your tools.
BTW, it's only a wee wall, more of a partition, really - about 6 ft long x
ceiling height. I'm not Hadrian!
Cheers
Frank
"Tim V" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Where in the UK is this pub? I'll be in Newark (Nottinghamshire) for a
> couple of weeks in early August. If it's close, I'd like to stop by and
see
> it. It sounds fascinating. Enjoy a nice pint of the bitter for me, and
one
> for yourself too.
>
> Tim
> ... see my page at http://www.wood-workers.com/users/timv/ (seriously
needs
> updating)
>
>
Works like magic, Rusty - thanks!
Cheers
Frank
"Rusty Myers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wipe your hands down with lemon juice to get rid of the black stain. Oh
> yeah, sounds like a fun and worthwhile project.
>
> --
> Rusty Myers
> Austin, TX
>
Hi, Brad.
Well, as John pointed out in an earlier post, the heyday of timber-framing
was much earlier - from the building of the great cathedrals in the 1100s
through to Tudor times in the 1500s-1600s. By the 1800s, brick was much
cheaper and more in vogue.
How did they cope? I can't really answer that - they'd no steel tools, and
the iron tools they had were pretty basic - not a patch on what we have
available in hand-tools now. I guess your last comment applies - they just
went on and did it anyway. I sometimes imagine the old chippies sanding
their work with real sand, and I thank God I'm living in the 21st century.
I'm a Neander, not a masochist!
As for the happiness - well I hope some of it rubs off on you guys. I've
just left the Royal Air Force after 38 good years, and am thoroughly
enjoying
making shavings full time. It doesn't get much better than doing what you
love best, outside a pub with stunning barmaids, on a sunny day, with a free
tab while you're working!
Cheers
Frank
"brad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for the great post! I'm wondering, how did the 19th century
> craftsmen make these tenons; did they also use Japanese pull-style
> saws, or were western handsaws made differently back then, or did they
> just struggle with them?
>
>
> Thanks for sharing the happiness.
Frank,
If I can swing it, I will definately stop in. It would be sometime between
the 12th and 19th. Is there a particular day or time that would be better
for you? Since, I'll be working every day, an evening would be better for
me; or even the weekend.
I'll apologize now, I'm not going to bring tools. They would be a b*tch to
get through security. I'll take you up on the lager, however.
Cheers,
Tim V
Caught a bit of that program, Gnube. I particularly liked the bit where the
designer got pissed off with the heavy wood framers - he went to great
lengths with a computer model to demonstrate why the unauthorised
modifications that the framers had incorporated (like doubling the size of
the hamster wheel) would generate such stresses that the machine would
break. Comment by a framer - "WTF would he know, he's only a structural
engineer..."
Suffice it to say that the machine worked magnificently, doubling the design
load expectations.
I have to say that the 15" square green oak baulks they were using made my
little 5" square stuff seem inadequate!
Looking forward to the rest of this series.
Cheers
Frank
Frank McVey wrote:
> Frank (Probably the happiest man anywhere at the moment.)
I didn't hear you say "adz" in all that. Didn't they cut those things with
an adz originally?
Certainly not with some fangled rye-oh-bah doodad, that's fer sure. :)
Glad you're having fun. That's what it's all about.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 16595 Approximate word count: 497850
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On 21 Jul 2003 16:57:55 -0700, [email protected] (brad) wrote:
>Thanks for the great post! I'm wondering, how did the 19th century
>craftsmen make these tenons; did they also use Japanese pull-style
>saws, or were western handsaws made differently back then, or did they
>just struggle with them?
Well last night, on the UK Channel 4 there was a great program called
"Machines that time forgot" - they built a huge (a couple of tons or
more!) cathedral crane - it was quite an education into really old
fashioned dust raising!
In the end they showed off by lifting an old clunker of a van weighing
in at about one and a half tons, and that was done with just two
people in the hamster wheel, and sometimes maybe two or three tuggin'
on the wheel planks outside of it!
They were using a two handed/ended saw for jointing! One chisel had
what appeared to be about a 6 or 8 inch wide blade and a hammer being
used elsewhere maybe about a foot across the striking face! The one
being used to bash on the chisel wasn't a whole lot smaller! They even
had to pivot and balance the timers about on saw horses as hefting
them about was out of the question despite there being a whole load of
people helping - they had 8 heavy framing expert carpenters on hand
organising it - and two on site blacksmiths making up hardware and
sorting out tools! They all worked very, very quickly too - was highly
entertaining to see.
They sure put the concept that today's tools are "power tools" into a
new perspective on that gig! What we do today is "splinter whittling"
by comparison! (yes, even that triple armoire!) ;O)
Absolutely awesome - they're doing some kind of fire ship/boat next
week - a sort of floating flame thrower by all accounts - this is
excellent stuff, recommend a watch if you are at all able to see it.
Really wish I'd taped it! I surely shall next week! It was the first
in a series of maybe 4 or 6 shows, so it's going to only get better at
a guess! A DVD with that lot on it would be an absolute a must have.
Maybe if enough of us went to their site and pestered them enough to
make one available, maybe they'd have to think about it some! I'll try
to dig out a link for e-mailing them if there's enough interest in
trying that approach.
Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}
Wipe your hands down with lemon juice to get rid of the black stain. Oh
yeah, sounds like a fun and worthwhile project.
--
Rusty Myers
Austin, TX
"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Picked up a commission recently to build a partition wall in my local pub.
> The pub is an oak timber-framed wattle-and-daub building dating to 1790.
> The landlord wants the new wall framed and half-panelled in oak, to fit in
> with the original timbering. I reckoned that if he wanted air-dried stuff
> of those dimensions (5"x 5" stiles, 4" x 4" rails) it would cost him an
arm
> and a leg. We talked it over and he decided that, since the original
would
> have been built with green oak, he'd go with that - 13.50 GBP per cu ft
> (=12 bd ft for you Yanks!) beats 50.00GBP, after all.
>
> I pointed out that green oak would warp, twist, bow, split and crack,
but
> he's happy, with that, since that's what the original timbers did.
>
> Finally got the timber delivered Friday from a local sawmill. Beautiful
> stuff, but summer-felled wood, so it really is wet. I decided , through a
> combination of nostalgia and respect for the place and the timber, that
I'd
> do the job the old way, so for the last couple of days, I've been working
> out in the pub car-park on trestles, hand-sawing out huge tusk tenons and
> chopping out 5" x 1 1/4" through mortices in big timber with a F-O big
> mallet and chisel.. We've had a heat-wave here in UK and it really has
been
> glorious weather for working outside.
>
> I've been amazed at the amount of interest it's generated among the
> customers ( passed out quite a few business cards!) - the number of people
> who've commented that it's good to see a man working in traditional
fashion
> has been really gratifying. (I forebore to comment that if it wasn't for
my
> Service Pension, I couldn't afford to do it without power tools!)
>
> It's the first time I've worked green oak. What have I learned? My first
> lesson was that my Western hand-saws are useless in timber this wet. 1/2"
> into the timber and they bind to the extent that they are almost unusable.
> Make no mistake, they're good saws, well-set and sharpened and well-lubed
> with candle-wax. My Japanese Ryoba, on the other hand, romped through it
> with next to no effort, ripping or cross-cutting, and with a finish and
> precision I simply can't achieve with Western saws. Few people over here
> outside of the woodworking fraternity have heard of them, so they
generated
> a lot of interest as well.
>
> Second lesson, although it's one I should have foreseen, is that wet oak
and
> ferrous tools produce a blue-black stain better than any ink I've seen.
I'm
> typing this with midnight blue fingers that have been scrubbed and
> scotch-brited until the skin goes thin.
>
> Third lesson is that it's good to go back to basics, if you can afford the
> time to indulge yourself. There's a lot of therapy in hand-chopping big
> mortices. You use up a lot of aggression. Being able to take the time to
> talk to interested passers-by and stop occasionally for a well-earned
smoke
> and a drink, enjoying the sun on your back and the birds singing helps as
> well.
>
> Fourth lesson is that green oak cuts like hard cheese, with edge-tools.
> Sinking these mortices is a real pleasure, with clean, crisp corners and
> smooth faces.
>
> Fifth lesson was that I dug out my old wooden jack plane for cleaning up
the
> timber. I'd forgotten how much lighter, slicker and easier a well-tuned
> wooden plane is to use over a Bailey-pattern #5 or #7.
>
> Downsides - well, an 8ft length of 5" x 5" green oak is heavy. Firkin'
> heavy. Easy to trap your fingers when you're rolling it around on the
> workbench or saw-horses doing your marking out.
>
> The other downside - for the timber, at least - is that it's hot and dry
> here at the moment. So I need to get all this timber cleaned up, jointed,
> framed and secure before it starts to warp, twist etc. I've given myself
> until Wednesday. I'll let you know how it goes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank (Probably the happiest man anywhere at the moment.)
>
>