My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. I wired
a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI outlet.
The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code' with
the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garage be
GFI?
--
Brian
www.garagewoodworks.com
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
Desiderius Erasmus
"Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote in news:4842c525$0$20173
[email protected]:
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>>plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>>never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>>home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>
> I think it's too cold for electricity to flow through wires in Canada.
> Electricity gets too viscous when frozen.
>
Actually, it might flow *better.* To get super conducting materials, one
of the things they do is chill it down as cold as they can get it. :-)
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
On Jun 1, 10:27=A0am, "Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote:
> My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
> circuit (not a gfi outlet). =A0It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
> often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. =A0 I wi=
red
> a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI outlet=
.
> The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. =A0I wanted to stay in 'code' wit=
h
> the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
>
> Thoughts? =A0Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garag=
e be
> GFI?
>
> --
> Brianwww.garagewoodworks.com
>
> "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
> Desiderius Erasmus
When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
r
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:16:23 -0500, "Gary K" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"skeez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ROFL..I have no doubt you are correct. as I stated I am NOT an
>> electrician. I only can attest to what the electrical inspector told
>> me. may or may not be correct. I am however in the consruction trades
>> and recepticals for the refridgerator in the houses I work on are on
>> their own circuit and are duplex outlets. I have never looked to see
>> if they use GFI breakers so I cant say one way or another. the rules
>> are different vitually everywhere. town to town and county to county
>> ect.... does the rules change for attached garage or detached? just
>> curious.
>
>
>First, the receptacles in KITCHENS that serve the frig are almost always
>INACCESSIBLE when the frig is plugged in and installed where it "lives".
>This makes the frig pocket have a special classification in the minds of
>most building inspectors, and duplex receptacle or not, it is very unlikely
>that even a duplex frig receptacle will be used for anything else. Thus, it
>takes on the effect of a single receptacle as soon as the frig is installed.
>To make certain that this remains true, whenever we wire new homes or
>remodel kitchen wiring, we use a single receptacle in frig pockets and in
>the cabinet above the range for the "over the range microwave".
>
>Secondly, a vast majority of the building inspectors also understand that
>the frig simply doesn't belong on a GFI circuit. GFIs are part of the
>"cringing chicken" group of devices. They sit around just waiting for
>something to even LOOK like there might be a problem so they can fulfill
>their destiny and shut off. Lightning striking the neighbor's tree across
>the street is enough to frighten a GFI or and ARC-Fault into peeing their
>pants and going offline. ARC-Faults are actually worse than GFIs. THEY
>sometimes trip simply because you were using something on an ARC-Fault
>circuit and had the audacity to turn off the device! The ARC-Fault breaker
>"sees" the spark from the switch being turned off and trips. A marvelous
>piece of equipment! (If you happen to be the manufacturer. People who have
>to install and service these devices and especially the folks who tolerate
>them in their homes often have a different opinion of the devices.)
>
>Attached garage versus detached garage? No difference. The National
>Electrical Code refers to garages. BTW, the same GFI requirements apply to
>other outbuildings with concrete or dirt floors... barns too!
>
>Anytime now, somebody who makes lotsa $$$ marketing ARC-Fault breakers is
>going to jump in here and cite the "tremendous benefits" these wonders of
>electronics have brought us! ;-))
>
>Gary Kasten
thanks for the explanation. I never knew about the microwave rule.
this is good info to know. I agree with your assessment of GFI's!!!
they can be a PITA. :-]>
skeez
On Jun 1, 11:07 am, skeez <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:27:23 -0400, "Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote:
> >My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
> >circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
> >often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. I wired
> >a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI outlet.
> >The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code' with
> >the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
>
> >Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garage be
> >GFI?
>
> I am not an electrician nor do I play one on TV BUT acording to
> several friends that are, a refrigerator should be on a 20 amp circuit
> by itself. A gfi wont work due to how the compressor uses
> power.[whatever that means!] when I wired my garage woorkshop the
> inspector told me that ONLY the outlet nearest the doors had to be
> GFI. that was 3 years ago. all other above the bench recepticals could
> be regular circuits. mine are all 20 amp w/ 12 guage wire. I
> originally put GFI breakers in for all the outlets. 3 total. when he
> inspected the wiring he said it was nice of me to do that but I didnt
> need to by code. as stated..... YMMV. I am in N.C. BTW.
>
> skeez
I'm in VA and did pretty much the same, but discovered the damned GFI
breakers loved to trip themselves for kicks...nothing wrong with
circuit or tool, and the GFIs are good quality. I've pulled most of
them and gone to GFI receptacles where I feel they are needed. I just
tossed my ancient refrigerator--well, a couple months ago--and got an
immediate drop of almost $27 a month in my shop electric bill (with a
much smaller refrigerator, about a 1/2 size unit). When I pulled that
thing out, a freebie given to me about '97 after it was considred NFG
for home use, I discovered mold all over the top and much of the sides
where it stayed wet from air leaks...but it NEVER blew a breaker. Old
machine. I only use it to keep Coke cold, so the little box is more
than enough.
On Jun 1, 12:30=A0pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>=
> wrote:
>
> >When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
> >plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
> >never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
> >home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>
> >r
>
> Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>
> mac
>
They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v... something
about extensions cords..
On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>
>r
Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"DanG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hurry up and change it before your municipality adopts the 2006 NEC. Yes,
> a conventional recep was allowed in the garage for freezer/second
> refrigerator. Apparently we will be losing that 1/2 beef and ice cream
> once the GFI and ArcFaults become code. Makes you wonder who is making the
> big decisions. Hope you don't live where the power is subject to weather
> anomalies like ice storms, etc.
Thanks. The more I read on the internet, the more I find out that you are
NOT supposed to plug a fridge into a GFI outlet. Doh!!
She needed a new circuit anyway, so now all that is needed is to swap out
the GFI receptacle for a non-gfi recep.
http://www.electricianpdq.com/ElectricalProblems/
Refrigerator in the basement or garage. Most homes built in the last forty
(40) years or so have GFIC protected outlets in the basement and garage.
Refrigerators and freezer should NOT be plugged into a GFI circuit
receptacle because they will damage GFI's over time causing it fail. You
don't want to all your food to spoil unknowingly because the GFIC failed. If
your refrigerator is plugged into a GFI protected receptacle, you should
have the electrician in install a new non GFI circuit for it.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
I think it's too cold for electricity to flow through wires in Canada.
Electricity gets too viscous when frozen.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Garage_Woodworks" wrote
>
>> Thanks. The more I read on the internet, the more I find out that you
>> are
>> NOT supposed to plug a fridge into a GFI outlet. Doh!!
>>
>> She needed a new circuit anyway, so now all that is needed is to swap out
>> the GFI receptacle for a non-gfi recep.
>
> Careful now ... while that would certainly be an easy solution, but a GFCI
> equipped receptacle often protects other receptacles downstream.
Originally her fridge was plugged into a GFI circuit that 'did' have other
outlets in the same GFI circuit. I installed a new 15A circuit and GFI
receptacle. The GFI receptacle is the only one on the new circuit.
> IOW, before you simply "replace" the GFCI receptacle, make sure that there
> are no other receptacles downstream which it protects, or you may be
> placing
> yourself, or future occupants, at risk.
>
> As you've found out, a refrigerator, as well as lights, should not be on
> GFCI equipped receptacles.
I like to find things out the hard way! <G>
Thanks!
>
> FWIW ...
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 5/14/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
"Gary K" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Someone else mentioned that because the new GFI receptacle you installed
> was still tripping that you need a 20 amp circuit. If it is the
> receptacle that is tripping and not the circuit breaker, then you are
> experiencing a ground fault situation, and not an overload. I suspect
> this is the case, as most residential refrigerators will operate just fine
> on a 120-volt, 15-amp circuit. The nameplate on the appliance will
> usually give you the specs as to the total load. FYI: 15 amps at 120
> volts is 1800 watts. If your device exceeds either the 15 amps or the
> 1800 watts, then the 15 amp circuit is inadequate.
>
> Hope this helps. Now time for the opposing viewpoints.
YES. That does help. It was the GFI that was tripping, not the breaker in
the panel. I am going to stick with the 15A breaker and the GFI recep has
already been swapped out for a non-GFI recep.
Thank you.
>
> Gary Kasten
> Kasten Electric Company
On Jun 1, 4:56=A0pm, "Gary K" <[email protected]> wrote:
(snip)
> A DEDICATED receptacle is a receptacle that has a single use, and once
> connected to its specified device, nothing else can be connected. =A0An
> electric dryer is another example of a dedicated receptacle. A dedicated
> receptacle does NOT have to be on a separate circuit to be considered
> dedicated, but a dedicated circuit is also frequently the case. =A0 > Gary=
Kasten
> Kasten Electric Company
Gary,
I'm confused. I "converted" a GFCI protected circuit in my garage to
"dedicated" for a fridge by replacing the GFCI receptacle with a
single outlet for the fridge. Being under the (mistaken?) impression
that code requred a dedicated circuit, I did not reconnect the wiring
to the "downstream" outlets, leaving them cold. Was this unnecessary?
Generally speaking, can I put a GFCI outlet in the next downstream
position, thereby protecting the standard duplex outlets down the
line? This is a 20A circuit with a standard breaker, by the way. In
other words, coming from the breaker:
1st: dedicated single receptacle for fridge
2nd: GFCI outlet
3rd and beyond: standard duplex outlets.
Is this valid?
Thanks,
Tom
On Jun 1, 4:32=A0pm, "Mark H" <nomail> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 1, 12:30 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]=
m>
> > wrote:
>
> > >When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
> > >plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
> > >never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
> > >home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>
> > >r
>
> > Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>
> > mac
>
> They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v... something
> about extensions cords..
>
> When did they decide between the =A0 AC =A0 =A0 =A0 DC =A0 =A0 =A0thing =
=A0? =A0 =A0 =A0; )
I didn't know they had made that break-through decision. I thought it
was still being investigated by the task-force that was to appoint a
steering committee in order to seat a Royal Commission, that, when
seated, would start a feasibility study to select an company to do an
impact assessment.
=2E
=2E
=2E
=2E
=2E
=2E... you laugh...
"Mark H" <nomail> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 1, 12:30 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>> >plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>> >never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>> >home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>>
>> >r
>>
>> Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>>
>> mac
>>
>
>
> They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v... something
> about extensions cords..
>
>
> When did they decide between the AC DC thing ? ; )
>
>
>
>
Most likely between beers, eh???
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jun 1, 12:30 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
> >plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
> >never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
> >home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>
> >r
>
> Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>
> mac
>
They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v... something
about extensions cords..
When did they decide between the AC DC thing ? ; )
"skeez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ROFL..I have no doubt you are correct. as I stated I am NOT an
> electrician. I only can attest to what the electrical inspector told
> me. may or may not be correct. I am however in the consruction trades
> and recepticals for the refridgerator in the houses I work on are on
> their own circuit and are duplex outlets. I have never looked to see
> if they use GFI breakers so I cant say one way or another. the rules
> are different vitually everywhere. town to town and county to county
> ect.... does the rules change for attached garage or detached? just
> curious.
First, the receptacles in KITCHENS that serve the frig are almost always
INACCESSIBLE when the frig is plugged in and installed where it "lives".
This makes the frig pocket have a special classification in the minds of
most building inspectors, and duplex receptacle or not, it is very unlikely
that even a duplex frig receptacle will be used for anything else. Thus, it
takes on the effect of a single receptacle as soon as the frig is installed.
To make certain that this remains true, whenever we wire new homes or
remodel kitchen wiring, we use a single receptacle in frig pockets and in
the cabinet above the range for the "over the range microwave".
Secondly, a vast majority of the building inspectors also understand that
the frig simply doesn't belong on a GFI circuit. GFIs are part of the
"cringing chicken" group of devices. They sit around just waiting for
something to even LOOK like there might be a problem so they can fulfill
their destiny and shut off. Lightning striking the neighbor's tree across
the street is enough to frighten a GFI or and ARC-Fault into peeing their
pants and going offline. ARC-Faults are actually worse than GFIs. THEY
sometimes trip simply because you were using something on an ARC-Fault
circuit and had the audacity to turn off the device! The ARC-Fault breaker
"sees" the spark from the switch being turned off and trips. A marvelous
piece of equipment! (If you happen to be the manufacturer. People who have
to install and service these devices and especially the folks who tolerate
them in their homes often have a different opinion of the devices.)
Attached garage versus detached garage? No difference. The National
Electrical Code refers to garages. BTW, the same GFI requirements apply to
other outbuildings with concrete or dirt floors... barns too!
Anytime now, somebody who makes lotsa $$$ marketing ARC-Fault breakers is
going to jump in here and cite the "tremendous benefits" these wonders of
electronics have brought us! ;-))
Gary Kasten
On Jun 2, 10:19=A0pm, "Gary K" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> I'm confused. I "converted" a GFCI protected circuit in my garage to
> "dedicated" for a fridge by replacing the GFCI receptacle with a
> single outlet for the fridge. Being under the (mistaken?) impression
> that code requred a dedicated circuit, I did not reconnect the wiring
> to the "downstream" outlets, leaving them cold. Was this unnecessary?
> Generally speaking, can I put a GFCI outlet in the next downstream
> position, thereby protecting the standard duplex outlets down the
> line? This is a 20A circuit with a standard breaker, by the way. In
> other words, coming from the breaker:
>
> 1st: dedicated single receptacle for fridge
> 2nd: GFCI outlet
> 3rd and beyond: standard duplex outlets.
>
> Is this valid?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> *******************
>
> Tom,
>
> You were doing pretty good. =A0You just gave up too soon. =A0Hope you stil=
l have
> the GFCI receptacle you removed.
>
> ASIDE: =A0I know of no requirement in the NEC that requires a dedicated
> circuit for residential refrigerators. =A0However, good kitchen wiring des=
ign
> AND common sense dictates giving the main frig in the kitchen a separate
> circuit. =A0This allows the counter top appliances be operated without con=
cern
> that the frig will operate, and trip the breaker that was running the coff=
ee
> pot and the microwave already. =A0We have been wiring the frig on a dedica=
ted
> 120-volt, 20-amp circuit for 30 years now.
>
> I can assure you that you don't need to sacrifice the balance of your gara=
ge
> circuit for "code" reasons. =A0The other outlets in the garage are likely
> occasional use and not high demand appliances. =A0If these were high deman=
d,
> then THEY may need the dedicated circuit. =A0;-)) =A0Therefore, restoring =
the
> balance of the GFI protected circuit is a good idea. =A0I assume you know =
how
> to pass the current from the junction box where you removed the GFCI
> receptacle and installed the single receptacle to the next junction box. =
=A0By
> doing that you now have power to the second location.
>
> At this second location, identify the black and white wires that are in th=
e
> incoming power cable and connect these to the "line" terminals of the GFCI=
> receptacle. =A0Connect the black and white wires from the cable going FROM=
> this second location to the third location to the appropriate "load"
> terminals on the GFCI receptacle. =A0This will now pass GFCI protected pow=
er
> to the balance of the circuit. =A0All these remaining outlets can be stand=
ard
> duplex outlets, or single outlets, or switches feeding lights, or whatever=
.
> Then, VERIFY that when the GFCI receptacle is tested, the power stops and =
NO
> other receptacles in the garage operate except the dedicated single
> receptacle for the frig. =A0Be especially careful to test the GFCI recepta=
cle
> too. =A0If you miswire it, it will still "trip", and it will shut off powe=
r to
> the balance of the circuit; BUT, power will still pass at the GFCI
> receptacle
>
> Last step is important here. =A0(Do be SURE it's the LAST step though) =A0=
Open
> your new frig and reach in for the cold frosty beverage that tastes so goo=
d
> when this hot job is done!
>
> Gary Kasten
Thanks for the detailed reply. As an EE, I knew that "logically" this
would work, and "logically" it would be safe, but I definitely
misinterpreted the code and thought it would be a violation.
This will really help because the downstream outlets will eventually
be needed (small loads only).
Your advice about the last step will be taken and taken well! Cheers!
Tom
"Garage_Woodworks" wrote
> Thanks. The more I read on the internet, the more I find out that you are
> NOT supposed to plug a fridge into a GFI outlet. Doh!!
>
> She needed a new circuit anyway, so now all that is needed is to swap out
> the GFI receptacle for a non-gfi recep.
Careful now ... while that would certainly be an easy solution, but a GFCI
equipped receptacle often protects other receptacles downstream.
IOW, before you simply "replace" the GFCI receptacle, make sure that there
are no other receptacles downstream which it protects, or you may be placing
yourself, or future occupants, at risk.
As you've found out, a refrigerator, as well as lights, should not be on
GFCI equipped receptacles.
FWIW ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:27:23 -0400, "Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote:
>My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
>circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
>often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. I wired
>a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI outlet.
>The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code' with
>the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
>
>Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garage be
>GFI?
I am not an electrician nor do I play one on TV BUT acording to
several friends that are, a refrigerator should be on a 20 amp circuit
by itself. A gfi wont work due to how the compressor uses
power.[whatever that means!] when I wired my garage woorkshop the
inspector told me that ONLY the outlet nearest the doors had to be
GFI. that was 3 years ago. all other above the bench recepticals could
be regular circuits. mine are all 20 amp w/ 12 guage wire. I
originally put GFI breakers in for all the outlets. 3 total. when he
inspected the wiring he said it was nice of me to do that but I didnt
need to by code. as stated..... YMMV. I am in N.C. BTW.
skeez
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:30 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>>> plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>>> never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>>> home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>>> r
>> Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>>
>> mac
>>
>
>
> They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v...
Gawdam metric agin.
Tanus
Mark H wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 1, 12:30 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When we get electricity here in Canada, we are told that we shouldn't
>>> plug a fridge into a GFI. All new houses where I install countertops
>>> never have GFI in the fridge cubicle. This is in anticipation of the
>>> home-owners getting electrical stuff in the future. <G>
>>> r
>> Any hope of someone importing a generator up there in the near future?
>>
>> mac
>>
>
>
> They're still debating whether to go to 110v or 220v... something
> about extensions cords..
>
>
> When did they decide between the AC DC thing ? ; )
>
>
>
>
We put those boys in special sections of the city. They like it that way.
Tanus
On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:56:31 -0500, "Gary K" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"skeez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:27:23 -0400, "Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote:
>>
>>>My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
>>>circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
>>>often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. I
>>>wired
>>>a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI
>>>outlet.
>>>The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code' with
>>>the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
>>>
>>>Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garage
>>>be
>>>GFI?
>>
>
>
>Well skeezics,
>
> I **AM** and electrician, although I have never played one on TV.
>Therefore, my advice based on only 31 years experience in the industry is to
>be considered "suspect". ;-)) We ALL know that much like the Internet, any
>opinions from actors or amateurs on ANY subject is better than that from
>qualified professionals. If you doubt this, just look at how America laps
>up the "Hollywood line" and passes along outrageous myths about everything
>from spiders in the hairdo to hooks stuck in the side of the car as it
>exited lovers lane. ;-))
>
ROFL..I have no doubt you are correct. as I stated I am NOT an
electrician. I only can attest to what the electrical inspector told
me. may or may not be correct. I am however in the consruction trades
and recepticals for the refridgerator in the houses I work on are on
their own circuit and are duplex outlets. I have never looked to see
if they use GFI breakers so I cant say one way or another. the rules
are different vitually everywhere. town to town and county to county
ect.... does the rules change for attached garage or detached? just
curious.
>Speaking seriously now...There are many variations of the electrical code as
>enforced by local communities. However, it is generally accepted most
>everywhere that a DEDICATED receptacle designed to service a single
>"appliance" is exempt from the GFI requirement, where the GFI requirement
>could/would compromise the operation of the appliance. Appliance doesn't
>just mean something from the kitchen or the laundry. Grandma's oxygen
>concentrator would apply here too. Sump pumps in the basement are another
>example.
>
>A DEDICATED receptacle is a receptacle that has a single use, and once
>connected to its specified device, nothing else can be connected. An
>electric dryer is another example of a dedicated receptacle. A dedicated
>receptacle does NOT have to be on a separate circuit to be considered
>dedicated, but a dedicated circuit is also frequently the case. So, If
>you've already installed a 120-volt, 15-amp GROUNDED circuit, all you
>generally need to do is install a SINGLE receptacle for the frig. The
>common DUPLEX receptacle does not qualify as you can still plug in something
>else along with the frig, which now makes it a general purpose receptacle
>and subject to the GFI requirement. Also, the receptacle should be marked
>at the point of use to identify it as NOT GFI protected and often also what
>the purpose is. I always use a permanent parker and write, "NOT GFI
>PROTECTED. FOR XXX USE ONLY", where XXX is replaced by refrigerator, or
>freezer, or air compressor, or whatever you are wanting to operate at this
>point. This way the end user has knowledge that this is NOT a general
>purpose GFI protected receptacle.
>
>Someone else mentioned that because the new GFI receptacle you installed was
>still tripping that you need a 20 amp circuit. If it is the receptacle that
>is tripping and not the circuit breaker, then you are experiencing a ground
>fault situation, and not an overload. I suspect this is the case, as most
>residential refrigerators will operate just fine on a 120-volt, 15-amp
>circuit. The nameplate on the appliance will usually give you the specs as
>to the total load. FYI: 15 amps at 120 volts is 1800 watts. If your device
>exceeds either the 15 amps or the 1800 watts, then the 15 amp circuit is
>inadequate.
>
>Hope this helps. Now time for the opposing viewpoints.
>
>Gary Kasten
>Kasten Electric Company
"skeez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:27:23 -0400, "Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote:
>
>>My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into a GCI
>>circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI circuit every so
>>often, but this same circuit ran other appliances in her kitchen. I
>>wired
>>a NEW circuit (15A) dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI
>>outlet.
>>The dam thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code' with
>>the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a non-GFI.
>>
>>Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in a garage
>>be
>>GFI?
>
Well skeezics,
I **AM** and electrician, although I have never played one on TV.
Therefore, my advice based on only 31 years experience in the industry is to
be considered "suspect". ;-)) We ALL know that much like the Internet, any
opinions from actors or amateurs on ANY subject is better than that from
qualified professionals. If you doubt this, just look at how America laps
up the "Hollywood line" and passes along outrageous myths about everything
from spiders in the hairdo to hooks stuck in the side of the car as it
exited lovers lane. ;-))
Speaking seriously now...There are many variations of the electrical code as
enforced by local communities. However, it is generally accepted most
everywhere that a DEDICATED receptacle designed to service a single
"appliance" is exempt from the GFI requirement, where the GFI requirement
could/would compromise the operation of the appliance. Appliance doesn't
just mean something from the kitchen or the laundry. Grandma's oxygen
concentrator would apply here too. Sump pumps in the basement are another
example.
A DEDICATED receptacle is a receptacle that has a single use, and once
connected to its specified device, nothing else can be connected. An
electric dryer is another example of a dedicated receptacle. A dedicated
receptacle does NOT have to be on a separate circuit to be considered
dedicated, but a dedicated circuit is also frequently the case. So, If
you've already installed a 120-volt, 15-amp GROUNDED circuit, all you
generally need to do is install a SINGLE receptacle for the frig. The
common DUPLEX receptacle does not qualify as you can still plug in something
else along with the frig, which now makes it a general purpose receptacle
and subject to the GFI requirement. Also, the receptacle should be marked
at the point of use to identify it as NOT GFI protected and often also what
the purpose is. I always use a permanent parker and write, "NOT GFI
PROTECTED. FOR XXX USE ONLY", where XXX is replaced by refrigerator, or
freezer, or air compressor, or whatever you are wanting to operate at this
point. This way the end user has knowledge that this is NOT a general
purpose GFI protected receptacle.
Someone else mentioned that because the new GFI receptacle you installed was
still tripping that you need a 20 amp circuit. If it is the receptacle that
is tripping and not the circuit breaker, then you are experiencing a ground
fault situation, and not an overload. I suspect this is the case, as most
residential refrigerators will operate just fine on a 120-volt, 15-amp
circuit. The nameplate on the appliance will usually give you the specs as
to the total load. FYI: 15 amps at 120 volts is 1800 watts. If your device
exceeds either the 15 amps or the 1800 watts, then the 15 amp circuit is
inadequate.
Hope this helps. Now time for the opposing viewpoints.
Gary Kasten
Kasten Electric Company
Gary,
I'm confused. I "converted" a GFCI protected circuit in my garage to
"dedicated" for a fridge by replacing the GFCI receptacle with a
single outlet for the fridge. Being under the (mistaken?) impression
that code requred a dedicated circuit, I did not reconnect the wiring
to the "downstream" outlets, leaving them cold. Was this unnecessary?
Generally speaking, can I put a GFCI outlet in the next downstream
position, thereby protecting the standard duplex outlets down the
line? This is a 20A circuit with a standard breaker, by the way. In
other words, coming from the breaker:
1st: dedicated single receptacle for fridge
2nd: GFCI outlet
3rd and beyond: standard duplex outlets.
Is this valid?
Thanks,
Tom
*******************
Tom,
You were doing pretty good. You just gave up too soon. Hope you still have
the GFCI receptacle you removed.
ASIDE: I know of no requirement in the NEC that requires a dedicated
circuit for residential refrigerators. However, good kitchen wiring design
AND common sense dictates giving the main frig in the kitchen a separate
circuit. This allows the counter top appliances be operated without concern
that the frig will operate, and trip the breaker that was running the coffee
pot and the microwave already. We have been wiring the frig on a dedicated
120-volt, 20-amp circuit for 30 years now.
I can assure you that you don't need to sacrifice the balance of your garage
circuit for "code" reasons. The other outlets in the garage are likely
occasional use and not high demand appliances. If these were high demand,
then THEY may need the dedicated circuit. ;-)) Therefore, restoring the
balance of the GFI protected circuit is a good idea. I assume you know how
to pass the current from the junction box where you removed the GFCI
receptacle and installed the single receptacle to the next junction box. By
doing that you now have power to the second location.
At this second location, identify the black and white wires that are in the
incoming power cable and connect these to the "line" terminals of the GFCI
receptacle. Connect the black and white wires from the cable going FROM
this second location to the third location to the appropriate "load"
terminals on the GFCI receptacle. This will now pass GFCI protected power
to the balance of the circuit. All these remaining outlets can be standard
duplex outlets, or single outlets, or switches feeding lights, or whatever.
Then, VERIFY that when the GFCI receptacle is tested, the power stops and NO
other receptacles in the garage operate except the dedicated single
receptacle for the frig. Be especially careful to test the GFCI receptacle
too. If you miswire it, it will still "trip", and it will shut off power to
the balance of the circuit; BUT, power will still pass at the GFCI
receptacle
Last step is important here. (Do be SURE it's the LAST step though) Open
your new frig and reach in for the cold frosty beverage that tastes so good
when this hot job is done!
Gary Kasten
Hurry up and change it before your municipality adopts the 2006
NEC. Yes, a conventional recep was allowed in the garage for
freezer/second refrigerator. Apparently we will be losing that
1/2 beef and ice cream once the GFI and ArcFaults become code.
Makes you wonder who is making the big decisions. Hope you don't
live where the power is subject to weather anomalies like ice
storms, etc.
--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
[email protected]
"Garage_Woodworks" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My mom put a fridge (15A) in her garage and it was plugged into
> a GCI circuit (not a gfi outlet). It kept tripping the GFI
> circuit every so often, but this same circuit ran other
> appliances in her kitchen. I wired a NEW circuit (15A)
> dedicated to her fridge and installed a new GFI outlet. The dam
> thing is still tripping the GFI. I wanted to stay in 'code'
> with the GFI in the garage, but I might switch her outlet to a
> non-GFI.
>
> Thoughts? Is it code to have a dedicated circuit to a fridge in
> a garage be GFI?
>
> --
> Brian
> www.garagewoodworks.com
>
> "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
> Desiderius Erasmus
>
>