RE: O/T: Time Will Tell

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>> use genuine replacement parts.
>>
>
> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very many,
> aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't really
> boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say that one should not
> simply assume that OEM is better. Too much evidence against that.
>


You can't assume that all after market is up to par with OEM. I have seen
a lot of crap out there.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
>
>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>
>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>> have it checked out.
>>>
>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>
>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from
>>> Toyota
>>> were $83.
>>>
>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is
>>> needed
>>> to
>>> be known.
>>>
>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only
>>> lasted
>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>
>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks
>>> like
>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>
>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>
>>> Lew
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand
>> vehicles on
>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture
>> their
>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand
>> vehicles,
>> maybe not.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
> use genuine replacement parts.
>
> OTOH, if you do not plan to keep the vehicle, use after market parts
> and pass potential short wear life on to the next owner.
>
> After all, it is the seller not the buyer who probably knows the true
> value of an item.
>
> Lew

IMHO still not worth the gamble not using genuine replacement parts. If
you buy after market you may or you may not be buying OEM. if you buy an
after market oil filter that does not measure up you could sustain
substantial engine damage should the filter fail, and this could happen
within a few hundred miles after installing. It would be a bitch to have
the engine fail before you got rid of a vehicle that you do not plan to
keep long.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>
>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>> have it checked out.
>>>
>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>
>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>> were $83.
>>>
>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>> to
>>> be known.
>>>
>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>
>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>
>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>
>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
>> maybe not.
>
> Huh?
>
> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
> NOT "after market".

OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.


>
> 2) Toyota does not manufacture all of their parts, themselves. They
> buy from the same "Tier-1" companies as everyone else.


Again no one mentioned that they did. However they do not use after market
parts unless they meet specifications dictated to qualify as OEM.
GM owned a brand, Delco. Delco made lots of replacement parts for GM
vehicles. Also available Exclusively through GM were OEM parts referred to
as "Target" parts. Many of these parts had the Target Parts logo on the
packaging but were not necessarily manufactured by a GM owned company.
These parts were OEM. Not all brand after market parts would qualify as
OEM.

There is a lot of after market that does not qualify as OEM.

What I am saying is that Toyota uses better quality parts regardless of who
makes them than the less expensive brands that do not measure up.



>
>> I in another life made my living exclusively with selling parts and repairs
>> and warranty work on GM vehicles.
>>
>> When I was the service sales manager for an Olds dealer I was once advised
>> by the Oldsmobile service hot line to use aftermarket parts to solve a
>> brake problem on a customers vehicle while it was still under warranty.
>>
>> Our warranty department literally had hundreds of parts, replaced under
>> warranty, waiting to be inspected by an Olds service rep. Our next door
>> Toyota dealer had 3 items waiting to be inspected.
>>
>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles on it
>> and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
>> it.
>
> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
> done on it.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>> performed on it.
>>
>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>> done on it.
>
> I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
> car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."


I consider it good since I have not ever had a vehicle that made it that
long with out needing some king of warranty work..
That included Honda and Acura.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>>
>>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>>> were $83.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>>> to
>>>>> be known.
>>>>>
>>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lew
>>>>
>>>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>>>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
> ^^^^^^^^
>>>> maybe not.
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
>>> NOT "after market".
>>
>> OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
>> OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
>> manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.
>
> What confused me was, "Toyota does not use after market parts to
> manufacture their vehicles."
>
> How can they? ...by the definition of the terms.
>
> <stuff resulting from the above misunderstanding, snipped>

LOL

Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>>> performed on it.
>>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>>> done on it.
>> I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
>> car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>>
> LOL (best joke of the day, so far!)

Actually if you were the service manager of an American car builder saying
a 1 day old car not having a problem is not the usual. You would be
surprised how much warranty work gets done before delivery if you have a
good make ready department. A so so make ready department and the
customer gets to bring it back in...

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:07:08 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 12/23/2013 9:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>
>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>> have it checked out.
>>>
>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>
>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>> were $83.
>>>
>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>> to
>>> be known.
>>>
>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>
>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>
>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>
>> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
>> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
>> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
>> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>>
>> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
>> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
>> TOO LONG!").
>>
>> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
>> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
>> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
>> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(
>>
>Typical American Shitbox, they couldn't even get the label right.

Certainly not typical. Chrysler makes a special class of shit box.

On 12/23/2013 7:19 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "woodchucker" wrote:
>
>> Geez you don't drive much. My 2004 cars are over 190k.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> After averaging 35-40,000 miles/year for over 35 years, I retired.
>
> Today, I drive less than 2,000 miles/year and don't miss it at all.
>
> Lew
>
>
I gave a 2000 Ford Ranger to my grandson this year. Had 60K miles on
it. Barely broken in. Insurance is quite a bit cheaper.

On 12/24/2013 10:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>
>>
>> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
>> trouble free driving.
>
>
> At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
> seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel controls
> and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have given it to
> you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell it.
>
> At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
> fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
> the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I asked
> GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a new car.
> Last GM car for me.
When I was youn I built a Camaro race car, I raced it at a road racing
track. not an oval.

I also bought a used BMW 2002..
I never went back to American after that. When I opened the engine,
there was a major difference in machine work. Americans were like
clunkers and the BMW was all machined.. Same with the Honda.

I went to Honda's next for quite a while until I had a problem with
undersize brakes and they kept telling me that no one had that problem..
During a Honda club meeting everyone was complaining about it.
That was my last Honda, as there way of dealing with the problem was to
say it wasn't happening. My wheel would shake violently from undersize
rotors heating up.

I have been in Toyota's camp for a while now.. they are not perfect
either.. But it's been a solid vehichle .... the last 4 have been very good.

I used to compete against many of the engineers for GM and Chrysler at
the nationals.. They explained how Toyotas and Hondas fell apart in the
first couple of months.. I asked them if they had ever been in one..
They would never step foot in one. I told them they would never
understand, and as engineers they should rent one to understand, give it
a month... Very closed minds, and that's why our car makers lost the Car
battle..

In order to know the competition sometimes you need to embrace them...
in their case they just assumed they were better.
--
Jeff

On 12/24/2013 10:43 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 9:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
>>> trouble free driving.
>>
>>
>> At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
>> seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel controls
>> and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have given it to
>> you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell it.
>>
>> At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
>> fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
>> the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I asked
>> GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a new car.
>> Last GM car for me.
>
>
> FWIW, I, being an ex Olds service manager, still see the things that
> went wrong in the 80's still being built the same way in the current
> vehicles.
> This is especially true on interiors. Same cheap crap.
>
> When we bought our last Toyota in August of last year I had a heck of an
> incentive to buy a Buick. The new car sales manager at the dealership
> is a customer of mine and he offered me a deal that was hard to turn
> down. AND on top of that I had an additional $2300 credit on my old GM
> credit card to take off of the total agreed to price.
>
> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the car.

My sister has a Buick, I too have a Camry, when taking a ride in their
car, I could not believe how bad a pot hole felt. My Camry on that same
pothole barely notices. The setup on the suspension for the American
cars is still lacking. My Camry SE handles way better than that Buick...
night and day different.

--
Jeff

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
>> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
>> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
>> car.
>
> Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a piece
> of shit.


Well Buick is probably better now than ever. IMHO most all of GM Vehicles,
except maybe their trucks, were POS since the mid 70's. Back in the 7Os
80s ... They were all the same vehicles with different trim levels and
badges.

On 12/24/2013 4:56 AM, Leon wrote:

> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles on it
> and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
> it.
>
on my third Hyundai Sonata since 2007. First two had 70k, present is
30k. No warranty work. Meantime my Buick was just falling apart in the
driveway.

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 21:39:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>I buy a lot of after market parts, but there are big differences in quality
>in the aftermarket. If you know the quality of the stuff you're getting,
>there's nothing but savings in it for you, but if you don't - it's a crap
>shoot. It can be hard to get specs on some stuff - like plug wires. Some
>places like NAPA can tell you the insulation thickness, material, wire
>guage, etc. of some of their better stuff, but if you can't find that out...

Sounds to me like you've just convinced yourself to buy Festool.



<Evil Grin>

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:14:13 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>>>> were $83.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be known.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>>>>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>>> maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
>>>> NOT "after market".
>>>
>>> OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
>>> OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
>>> manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.
>>
>> What confused me was, "Toyota does not use after market parts to
>> manufacture their vehicles."
>>
>> How can they? ...by the definition of the terms.
>>
>> <stuff resulting from the above misunderstanding, snipped>
>
>LOL
Many manufacturers use basically "generic" or "off the shelf"
components which are THE SAME as what is sold as aftermarket parts -
parts made by Dana, or TRW, or some other company - too their spec -
and sold to the "aftermarket" off the same line.

In Japan you can likely buy "nippondenso" plug wires from the
aftermarket as well. Here in North America you generally can not - and
even some of the "dealer supplied" replacement parts are not,
technically, OEM - as they are from a different supplier than the
parts originally installed at the factory (and generally "locally
sourced")

"woodchucker" wrote:

> Geez you don't drive much. My 2004 cars are over 190k.
------------------------------------------------------------
After averaging 35-40,000 miles/year for over 35 years, I retired.

Today, I drive less than 2,000 miles/year and don't miss it at all.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>
>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>> have it checked out.
>>
>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>
>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from
>> Toyota
>> were $83.
>>
>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is
>> needed
>> to
>> be known.
>>
>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only
>> lasted
>> 38,000 before failure.
>>
>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks
>> like
>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>
>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>
>> Lew
-------------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand
> vehicles on
> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture
> their
> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand
> vehicles,
> maybe not.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
use genuine replacement parts.

OTOH, if you do not plan to keep the vehicle, use after market parts
and pass potential short wear life on to the next owner.

After all, it is the seller not the buyer who probably knows the true
value of an item.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>>> use genuine replacement parts.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike Marlow wrote:

>> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very
>> many,
>> aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't
>> really
>> boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say that one
>> should not
>> simply assume that OEM is better. Too much evidence against that.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

> You can assume the price is higher though. Some aftermarket parts
> are identical to the OEM, but you don't always know that
-----------------------------------------------------
Points of clarification.

I don't have to make enough repairs to make it worth investing in the
research necessary to evaluate after market parts.

Rather I choose to invest in a mechanic who is knowledgeable.

My mechanic is an old fart who makes a living rebuilding hot rods.

I trust him.

That said, there are private label items I buy on a regular basis.

Due to the weather here in SoCal, I install a fresh set of house brand
windshield wiper blades around Oct 15, which is about 2-3 weeks before
the start of the rainy season.

Most of the rain has fallen by Mar 1.

After that, the weather warms up and the sun spends the next 6 months
turning the wiper blades into a brittle junk.

When I did my own oil changes, used house brand filters and Valvoline
oil.

These days, get an oil change in January from whoever has the $19.99
special that week.

Hoses are the house brand except for the molded top and bottom
radiator hoses which are by the manufacturer.

I buy the 2nd level house brand tires in pairs.

Put the new tires on the front, rotate the fronts to the rear,
remove the rears saving the best as a spare.

The four (4) Schrader valves on the air conditioning system
are always from the manufacturer.

Learned that lesson the hard way.

When it's time to flush the radiator, get a complete drain,
not the cut the corner special that leaves the block not flushed.

Depend on the mechanic to replace with compatable fluids.

As you can see, it depends, but when it's truly important, tend
to stick with manufacturer supplied parts.

Again, will have to wait and see if that was a good choice in
this case.

Lew

On 12/24/2013 11:49 AM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
>>> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
>>> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
>>> car.
>> Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a
>> piece
>> of shit.
>>
> I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
> of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
> Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
> owned one of each. I didn't know there was that much difference between
> the Camry. I'll look closer at it next time. Being tall, but not
> unusually so, always seems to limit my choices.

I'm 6'2" and the most headroom I've had in any car was my 1970 Beetle.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

"Doug Winterburn" wrote:



> I'm 6'2" and the most headroom I've had in any car was my 1970
> Beetle.
-----------------------------------------------
Agreed, although the 84 Rabbit was close, but the Tacoma P/U is the
winner.


Lew

"Bill" wrote:
> I'm going to be looking at that one next time around. What did you
> say about its gas mileage?
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't but my 2.4L, 4 Cyl, 5 Spd Manual and A/C is getting 22-23 MPG
in city stop and go traffic.

My guess is about 27-28 MPG on the open road.

BTW, the 2.4L is the only engine equipped with a steel timing belt.

None of that rubber belt, change it at 50,000 miles for me.

Truck won't get away from a snail, but it gets me where I want to go.

Lew

>> They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service
>> turns
>> into at least two trips to the dealer.
----------------------------------
"Keith Nuttle" wrote:

>
> I remember when the Federal Government changed that tax laws on the
> inventories. After that point the service went down because
> inventories were fully taxed each year and a company could not
> afford to maintain the complete inventories they had previous.y
----------------------------------------------
Which explains why many of the auto guys (FoMoCo was one) sold
their in house inventory to a 3rd party and then bought back only
what they used that day.

More bean counter games.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:14:13 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>>>>> were $83.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be known.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>>>>>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
>>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>>>> maybe not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
>>>>> NOT "after market".
>>>>
>>>> OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
>>>> OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
>>>> manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.
>>>
>>> What confused me was, "Toyota does not use after market parts to
>>> manufacture their vehicles."
>>>
>>> How can they? ...by the definition of the terms.
>>>
>>> <stuff resulting from the above misunderstanding, snipped>
>>
>> LOL
> Many manufacturers use basically "generic" or "off the shelf"
> components which are THE SAME as what is sold as aftermarket parts -
> parts made by Dana, or TRW, or some other company - too their spec -
> and sold to the "aftermarket" off the same line.
>
> In Japan you can likely buy "nippondenso" plug wires from the
> aftermarket as well. Here in North America you generally can not - and
> even some of the "dealer supplied" replacement parts are not,
> technically, OEM - as they are from a different supplier than the
> parts originally installed at the factory (and generally "locally
> sourced")

True, dealers do not always use OEM. Smaller dealers in smaller towns are
more likely to use aftermarket in the interest of repairing the vehicle in
a more timely manner Our dealership in Houston had a disclaimer
indicating that this might happen in the interest of repairing the vehicle
more quickly.. Our first choice was always OEM. It was extremely rare
that we resorted to using after market.

Basically a dealer prefers to use OEM as in the past GM would stand behind
the repair and part,,

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>
>Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>have it checked out.
>
>Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>
>An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>were $83.
>
>Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>to
>be known.
>
>The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>38,000 before failure.
>
>Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>the best deal, and they were installed.
>
>Time will tell if I made the correct decision.

I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
$100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.

Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
TOO LONG!").

[*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>
> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
> have it checked out.
>
> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>
> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
> were $83.
>
> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
> to
> be known.
>
> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
> 38,000 before failure.
>
> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
> the best deal, and they were installed.
>
> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>
> Lew

There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
maybe not.

I in another life made my living exclusively with selling parts and repairs
and warranty work on GM vehicles.

When I was the service sales manager for an Olds dealer I was once advised
by the Oldsmobile service hot line to use aftermarket parts to solve a
brake problem on a customers vehicle while it was still under warranty.

Our warranty department literally had hundreds of parts, replaced under
warranty, waiting to be inspected by an Olds service rep. Our next door
Toyota dealer had 3 items waiting to be inspected.

Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles on it
and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
it.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 13:12:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:49:51 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>>
>>I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
>>of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
>>Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
>>owned one of each.
>
>Marketing. According to the dealer when I bought my last Buick, the
>average age of Buick owners at the time was 65+. Twentysomethings
>don't buy Roadmasters, Park Avenue, or LeSabre. They wanted names
>that would possibly attract the younger crowd.
>
>http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/03/30/buick-lowers-average-age-of-buyer-but-its-higher-than-norm.html
>The new products have helped to change Buick’s demographics. In 2006,
>Buick buyers on average had celebrated 66 birthdays. Last year the
>number was 57, the company said. The Verano helped, because small cars
>tend to draw younger buyers. But Buick buyers are still older than the
>norm, and the automaker would like to catch more people in their 40s.
>The average car buyer in the U.S. is 52, says the auto-pricing site
>TrueCar.com.

All car manufacturers are having that problem now. Over half of the
new car buyers are over 55. They're the only ones who can afford
them.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>>
>>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>>> were $83.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>>> to
>>>>> be known.
>>>>>
>>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lew
>>>>
>>>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>>>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
> ^^^^^^^^
>>>> maybe not.
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
>>> NOT "after market".
>>
>> OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
>> OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
>> manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.
>
> What confused me was, "Toyota does not use after market parts to
> manufacture their vehicles."
>
> How can they? ...by the definition of the terms.
>
> <stuff resulting from the above misunderstanding, snipped>

Manufacturers offer several different grades and or styles of a given part
While OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer, a part commonly
referred to as OEM in the trades is one that is basically indistinguishable
from any other same OEM part manufactured by a different manufacturer and
is built to the specifications of the automobile manufacturer.. It is
common for several manufacturers to make the same OEM part for a car
builder. Car builders can't rely on a single source for the same part.

There are countless after market parts that are made by a top quality
manufacturer but not all of the parts qualify as OEM
And even though these parts may perform as well as the OEM parts that they
manufacture there may be a physical difference that increases its coverage
of vehicles that it may fit.

K&M makes top quality after market air cleaners but for the most part they
are not OEM.
To install these after market air cleaners the installer might have to make
some kind of modification to any number of things, snorkel hoses, vacuum
lines, heat riser tubes, etc.. If K&M makes an OEM air cleaner for a given
vehicle the part will perform, fit, and look like the original.

On 12/24/2013 1:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>> use genuine replacement parts.
>>
>
> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very many,
> aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't really
> boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say that one should not
> simply assume that OEM is better. Too much evidence against that.
>
>

You can assume the price is higher though. Some aftermarket parts are
identical to the OEM, but you don't always know that

On 12/24/2013 3:06 AM, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 21:39:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>> I buy a lot of after market parts, but there are big differences in
>>> quality
>>> in the aftermarket. If you know the quality of the stuff you're
>>> getting,
>>> there's nothing but savings in it for you, but if you don't - it's a
>>> crap
>>> shoot. It can be hard to get specs on some stuff - like plug wires.
>>> Some
>>> places like NAPA can tell you the insulation thickness, material, wire
>>> guage, etc. of some of their better stuff, but if you can't find that
>>> out...
>> Sounds to me like you've just convinced yourself to buy Festool.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Evil Grin>
>
> Speaking of higher prices, I received the 2014 Grizzly catalog today and
> they are. Even higher than the regular prices shown at their web site. I
> can't blame them, but gee...
I was looking at their web site and thought the prices were higher than
the past. They are starting to price themselves at higher end pricing.
Not yet at the prices for jet but getting there.

--
Jeff

On 12/23/2013 8:50 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
Geez you don't drive much. My 2004 cars are over 190k.
My 2010 is at 64k... and that's with lots of unemployed time.
>
> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
> have it checked out.
>
> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>
> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
> were $83.
>
> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
> to
> be known.
>
> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
> 38,000 before failure.
>
> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
> the best deal, and they were installed.
>
> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>
> Lew
>
>


--
Jeff

On 12/23/2013 9:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>
>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>> have it checked out.
>>
>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>
>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>> were $83.
>>
>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>> to
>> be known.
>>
>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>> 38,000 before failure.
>>
>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>
>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>
> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>
> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
> TOO LONG!").
>
> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(
>
Typical American Shitbox, they couldn't even get the label right.

--
Jeff

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:18:28 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:07:08 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On 12/23/2013 9:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>
>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>
>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>> were $83.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>> to
>>>> be known.
>>>>
>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>
>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>
>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>
>>> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
>>> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
>>> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
>>> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>>>
>>> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
>>> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
>>> TOO LONG!").
>>>
>>> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
>>> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
>>> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
>>> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(
>>>
>>Typical American Shitbox, they couldn't even get the label right.
>
>Certainly not typical. Chrysler makes a special class of shit box.

Actually I think it's Fiat now. But yeah, it's a shit box.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:13:04 -0800, jo4hn <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 12/23/2013 7:19 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "woodchucker" wrote:
>>
>>> Geez you don't drive much. My 2004 cars are over 190k.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> After averaging 35-40,000 miles/year for over 35 years, I retired.
>>
>> Today, I drive less than 2,000 miles/year and don't miss it at all.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>I gave a 2000 Ford Ranger to my grandson this year. Had 60K miles on
>it. Barely broken in. Insurance is quite a bit cheaper.

My 2001 Ranger went to the great used parts store in the sky, six
months ago. The real (leaf) spring mounts and where the attached to,
simply vanished. ...and some don't believe salt is bad for you. ;-)

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:48:14 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>>> performed on it.
>>>
>>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>>> done on it.
>>
>>I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>>of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
>>car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>
>OTOH, my wife's '14 Mustang was back in the shop 6 times (twice when
>we were on vacation), the first month we had it. They should have
>been able to fix it on the first try but they were obviously
>incompetent. They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service turns
>into at least two trips to the dealer.
>
>The convertible is a lot of fun to drive, though. ;-)

You need my Ford dealer, they have been in business here almost a
hundred years. They do it by good quality service.

Mark

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>
>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>> have it checked out.
>>
>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>
>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>> were $83.
>>
>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>> to
>> be known.
>>
>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>> 38,000 before failure.
>>
>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>
>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>
> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>
> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
> TOO LONG!").
>
> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(

It "threw" a set of wires???

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>
>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>> have it checked out.
>>
>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>
>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>> were $83.
>>
>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>> to
>> be known.
>>
>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>> 38,000 before failure.
>>
>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>
>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>
>> Lew
>
>There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
>vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
>maybe not.

Huh?

1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
NOT "after market".

2) Toyota does not manufacture all of their parts, themselves. They
buy from the same "Tier-1" companies as everyone else.

>I in another life made my living exclusively with selling parts and repairs
>and warranty work on GM vehicles.
>
>When I was the service sales manager for an Olds dealer I was once advised
>by the Oldsmobile service hot line to use aftermarket parts to solve a
>brake problem on a customers vehicle while it was still under warranty.
>
>Our warranty department literally had hundreds of parts, replaced under
>warranty, waiting to be inspected by an Olds service rep. Our next door
>Toyota dealer had 3 items waiting to be inspected.
>
>Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles on it
>and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
>it.

That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
done on it.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:53 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
>>> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
>>> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
>>> car.
>>
>> Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a piece
>> of shit.
>
>
>Well Buick is probably better now than ever. IMHO most all of GM Vehicles,
>except maybe their trucks, were POS since the mid 70's. Back in the 7Os
>80s ... They were all the same vehicles with different trim levels and
>badges.

Yes "found on road dead" now seems to belong to GM, not Ford. I have
bought Rangers the last three vehicles, the main reason the seat was
the most comfortable to my ass. Priorities YMMV.

Mark

woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 10:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
>>> trouble free driving.
>>
>>
>> At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
>> seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel controls
>> and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have given it to
>> you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell it.
>>
>> At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
>> fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
>> the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I asked
>> GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a new car.
>> Last GM car for me.
> When I was youn I built a Camaro race car, I raced it at a road racing track. not an oval.
>
> I also bought a used BMW 2002..
> I never went back to American after that. When I opened the engine, there
> was a major difference in machine work. Americans were like clunkers and
> the BMW was all machined.. Same with the Honda.
>
> I went to Honda's next for quite a while until I had a problem with
> undersize brakes and they kept telling me that no one had that problem..
> During a Honda club meeting everyone was complaining about it.
> That was my last Honda, as there way of dealing with the problem was to
> say it wasn't happening. My wheel would shake violently from undersize rotors heating up.
>
> I have been in Toyota's camp for a while now.. they are not perfect
> either.. But it's been a solid vehichle .... the last 4 have been very good.
>
> I used to compete against many of the engineers for GM and Chrysler at
> the nationals.. They explained how Toyotas and Hondas fell apart in the
> first couple of months.. I asked them if they had ever been in one.. They
> would never step foot in one. I told them they would never understand,
> and as engineers they should rent one to understand, give it a month...
> Very closed minds, and that's why our car makers lost the Car battle..
>
> In order to know the competition sometimes you need to embrace them... in
> their case they just assumed they were better.

The reason the American manufacturers lost out to the Japanese was the
labor unions

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:00:58 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>
>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>
>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>> were $83.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>> to
>>>> be known.
>>>>
>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>
>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>
>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>
>>> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
>>> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
>>> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
>>> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>>>
>>> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
>>> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
>>> TOO LONG!").
>>>
>>> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
>>> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
>>> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
>>> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(
>>
>> It "threw" a set of wires???
>
> Ate them? Um, they "failed"?

Ok, failed is good.. Lots of non car people get the terminology mixed up.
Typically an engine will throw " belts". I was a bit confused.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:48:58 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>Since Rangers are no longer made (2011 was the last year, IIRC), I
>bought an F150 this time. I like it a lot! The price they were
>asking for Rangers was outrageous. $22K for a 2010 with 20K miles or
>$18K for an '11 with 50K. I paid $25K for a new '13 F150 XLT.

The Ranger is still made, just not sold or made in the US, they did
that to get rid of the glut of F150's.

On 12/24/2013 3:56 AM, Leon wrote:
> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles on it
> and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
> it.

Not bad, since you only drive it to WoodCraft for Festools.
(g,d&r>

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 13:59:31 -0600, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:53 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
>>>> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
>>>> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
>>>> car.
>>>
>>> Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a piece
>>> of shit.
>>
>>
>>Well Buick is probably better now than ever. IMHO most all of GM Vehicles,
>>except maybe their trucks, were POS since the mid 70's. Back in the 7Os
>>80s ... They were all the same vehicles with different trim levels and
>>badges.
>
>Yes "found on road dead" now seems to belong to GM, not Ford. I have
>bought Rangers the last three vehicles, the main reason the seat was
>the most comfortable to my ass. Priorities YMMV.

Since Rangers are no longer made (2011 was the last year, IIRC), I
bought an F150 this time. I like it a lot! The price they were
asking for Rangers was outrageous. $22K for a 2010 with 20K miles or
$18K for an '11 with 50K. I paid $25K for a new '13 F150 XLT.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>>
>>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>>> have it checked out.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>>
>>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>>> were $83.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>>> to
>>>> be known.
>>>>
>>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>>
>>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>>
>>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>
>>> There is a reason that Toyota is one of the most reliable brand vehicles on
>>> the planet. Toyota does not use after market parts to manufacture their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> vehicles. I think you made the right decision Lew. Other brand vehicles,
^^^^^^^^
>>> maybe not.
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> 1) The parts an OEM uses to manufacture their cars are, by definition,
>> NOT "after market".
>
>OEM was never previously mentioned, until you must mentioned.
>OEM and after market are NOT necessarily the same. OEM parts are
>manufactured to a specific standard. Not all after market parts are.

What confused me was, "Toyota does not use after market parts to
manufacture their vehicles."

How can they? ...by the definition of the terms.

<stuff resulting from the above misunderstanding, snipped>

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:39:01 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:49:51 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
>>> of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
>>> Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
>>> owned one of each.
>> Marketing. According to the dealer when I bought my last Buick, the
>> average age of Buick owners at the time was 65+. Twentysomethings
>> don't buy Roadmasters, Park Avenue, or LeSabre.

>I bought a Skylark when I was 24 or so, but to be honest, that engine in
>that car didn't age well. Then GM dropped that model from their lineup
>because they couldn't make enough money on it. I don't disagree with
>what you say though. I may be more the exception than the rule when it
>comes to what I have been looking for in a car (comfortable, reliable,
>and affordable).

Skylark was of a family that was geared to the younger buyer. They
also had the Grand National series some years back. Afterward though,
most models resorted to fogeydom. I was 46 when I bought a '91 Regal,
a nice looking car, but moved to a LeSabre when I was older.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:00:58 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>>>
>>> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
>>> have it checked out.
>>>
>>> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>>>
>>> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
>>> were $83.
>>>
>>> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
>>> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
>>> to
>>> be known.
>>>
>>> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
>>> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
>>> 38,000 before failure.
>>>
>>> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
>>> the best deal, and they were installed.
>>>
>>> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>>
>> I had a '93 Eagle Vision TsI that threw a set of wires every fall[*].
>> The difference between the aftermarket and OEM wires was ~$20 ($80 vs.
>> $100, IIRC). The kicker was that *every* brand of aftermarket wire
>> had insulators that were 1/4" too long. The OEM ones fit.
>>
>> Every year I'd go through the game of trying to convince the guys at
>> the parts stores that their wires really didn't fit ("See! "They're
>> TOO LONG!").
>>
>> [*] Turns out that the plug gap spec on the engine label was wrong. It
>> specified a .062" gap, which I thought was a little big, but "what the
>> heck...". The gap *should* have been .035". Doubling the spark
>> wasn't doing the wires any good. :-(
>
>It "threw" a set of wires???

Ate them? Um, they "failed"?

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 20:01:46 -0600, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:48:14 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>>>> performed on it.
>>>>
>>>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>>>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>>>> done on it.
>>>
>>>I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>>>of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
>>>car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>>
>>OTOH, my wife's '14 Mustang was back in the shop 6 times (twice when
>>we were on vacation), the first month we had it. They should have
>>been able to fix it on the first try but they were obviously
>>incompetent. They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service turns
>>into at least two trips to the dealer.
>>
>>The convertible is a lot of fun to drive, though. ;-)
>
>You need my Ford dealer, they have been in business here almost a
>hundred years. They do it by good quality service.

I had a great Ford dealer, well Lincoln-Mercury, actually. The
general manager was a very close friend. Unfortunately, he's still in
Vermont and we're in Georgia, now. I never had any problems getting
service on my Ranger. The Ford dealer there sure sucked, though.

On 12/24/2013 9:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>
>>
>> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
>> trouble free driving.
>
>
> At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
> seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel controls
> and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have given it to
> you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell it.
>
> At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
> fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
> the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I asked
> GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a new car.
> Last GM car for me.


FWIW, I, being an ex Olds service manager, still see the things that
went wrong in the 80's still being built the same way in the current
vehicles.
This is especially true on interiors. Same cheap crap.

When we bought our last Toyota in August of last year I had a heck of an
incentive to buy a Buick. The new car sales manager at the dealership
is a customer of mine and he offered me a deal that was hard to turn
down. AND on top of that I had an additional $2300 credit on my old GM
credit card to take off of the total agreed to price.

The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the car.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> I have a 1999 Toyota Tacoma P/U truck with 128,000 miles on it.
>
> Today it started running "Rough" so stopped by my mechanic to
> have it checked out.
>
> Turns out that a spark plug wire had shorted out.
>
> An after market set of four (4) wires were $48 while wires from Toyota
> were $83.
>
> Looks like a straight forward decision, after market parts are the
> way to go, but there is one more piece of information that is needed
> to
> be known.
>
> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they
> were changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted
> 38,000 before failure.
>
> Based on that information, the Toyota set of wires for $83 looks like
> the best deal, and they were installed.
>
> Time will tell if I made the correct decision.
>

I buy a lot of after market parts, but there are big differences in quality
in the aftermarket. If you know the quality of the stuff you're getting,
there's nothing but savings in it for you, but if you don't - it's a crap
shoot. It can be hard to get specs on some stuff - like plug wires. Some
places like NAPA can tell you the insulation thickness, material, wire
guage, etc. of some of their better stuff, but if you can't find that out...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 21:39:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> I buy a lot of after market parts, but there are big differences in quality
>> in the aftermarket. If you know the quality of the stuff you're getting,
>> there's nothing but savings in it for you, but if you don't - it's a crap
>> shoot. It can be hard to get specs on some stuff - like plug wires. Some
>> places like NAPA can tell you the insulation thickness, material, wire
>> guage, etc. of some of their better stuff, but if you can't find that out...
> Sounds to me like you've just convinced yourself to buy Festool.
>
>
>
> <Evil Grin>

Speaking of higher prices, I received the 2014 Grizzly catalog today and
they are. Even higher than the regular prices shown at their web site. I
can't blame them, but gee...

On 12/24/2013 7:24 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 4:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>> on it
>> and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work performed on
>> it.
>>
> on my third Hyundai Sonata since 2007. First two had 70k, present is
> 30k. No warranty work. Meantime my Buick was just falling apart in the
> driveway.

I had a 1976 Dodge Aspen I got 200k on it before I got rid of it. I
have had a 52 Ford, a 68 Buick, 73 Buick, and several GM vans, and never
had less than 150 miles on any or them. I have never had any problems
except batteries, tires, and a couple of alternators.

I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
trouble free driving.

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:50:22 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> The original wires lasted 90,000 miles with no problems when they were
> changed out with an after market set of wires which only lasted 38,000
> before failure.

While it's most likely that the 2nd set were of lesser quality, there's
also the possibility that the aging of the entire electrical system might
have had an effect.

--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:27:34 -0500, krw wrote:

> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
> done on it.

We bought a 2006 PT Cruiser in 2007 that had 18,000 miles on it. We've
still got it. The dealer replaced the leaky rear seal (a known problem)
before he'd let us buy it. Other than normal maintenance, only thing
replaced has been the front brakes at around 50,000. Mileage is now
around 60,000 mostly city miles with a lot of stop and go driving. We're
pretty happy with the car.

I see a lot of them on the road and very few in the for sale ads. The
owners must like them. So of course Chrysler stopped making them :-).

BTW, with the seats folded down I can carry 8' lumber - one of the
reasons I selected it.

--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>
>>
>> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k
>> of trouble free driving.
>
>
> At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
> seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel
> controls and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have
> given it to you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell
> it.
> At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
> fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
> the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I
> asked GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a
> new car. Last GM car for me.

Likewise - after more than 20 years as a died in the wool GM guy, I finally
bought a Hyundai for my wife. Imagine my surprise when over the miles and
over the years, I did not have to crawl under the car or under the roof to
keep making "routine" repairs as I did with all of my previous GM cars. I
did have to replace the brake lines at a point but you can't avoid that in
the rust belt. Beyond that - only a brake job every year and a half or so.
No alternators. No wheel bearings. No crank sensors. No intake manifold
gaskets. I could go on and on. Bottom line - a far more trouble free car
than ANY of the GM's I've ever owned. My GM's were all top end cars -
Buick's, Pontiac's and one not top end... Chevy (car).

As far as I am concerned - GM can suck a root. I think it was unfortunate
that we bailed out a company like that. We should have let them suffer the
consequences of their own actions. But - now we're saddled with them
longer. No problem - the market will take care of that issue...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
> car.

Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a piece
of shit.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>> performed on it.
>
> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
> done on it.

I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> The Buick was going to be approximately $5000 less than the Camry that
>> we bought. And we got to take the Buick home for 24 hours as a test
>> drive. Actually that test drive is probably why we did not buy the
>> car.
> Isn't that just a shame? A once legendary badge, and now it is just a piece
> of shit.
>
I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
owned one of each. I didn't know there was that much difference between
the Camry. I'll look closer at it next time. Being tall, but not
unusually so, always seems to limit my choices.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
> use genuine replacement parts.
>

That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very many,
aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't really
boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say that one should not
simply assume that OEM is better. Too much evidence against that.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>> performed on it.
>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>> done on it.
> I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
> car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>
LOL (best joke of the day, so far!)

On 12/24/2013 1:53 PM, Bill wrote:
> I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
> car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."

When we were married 46 years ago my future brother in law told me that
I would soon have to replace my 68 Buick with 100k, I got rid of it when
it hit 170k, because I wanted a new car.

Unless a car is a piece of garbage, any car should give at lease 100k
trouble free miles. That mileage should be in all kinds of conditions,
over 70mph on hours Interstates and days driving around town. When my
76 Aspen had over 100k I started to use it for a weekly commute on I-95
from Carolina to Maryland. I was putting on about 500 miles per week, I
got rid of that car when it hit 200k

If you drive a car 5 to 10 miles per day any car will fail as the
engines never get up to their designed operating temperatures that keep
the engine and systems clean. The muffler system and other parts never
get hot enough to dry them out, and the water collects and rust the
systems. Gaskets dry out and fail as they never get completely
lubricated.

Bottom line there is nothing to brag about if your car has less the 100k.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 1:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>>> use genuine replacement parts.
>>>
>>
>> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very
>> many, aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't
>> really boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say
>> that one should not simply assume that OEM is better. Too much
>> evidence against that.
>
> You can assume the price is higher though. Some aftermarket parts are
> identical to the OEM, but you don't always know that

Agreed.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 1:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>> I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up
>> my new car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>
> When we were married 46 years ago my future brother in law told me
> that I would soon have to replace my 68 Buick with 100k, I got rid of
> it when it hit 170k, because I wanted a new car.
>
> Unless a car is a piece of garbage, any car should give at lease 100k
> trouble free miles. That mileage should be in all kinds of
> conditions, over 70mph on hours Interstates and days driving around
> town. When my 76 Aspen had over 100k I started to use it for a
> weekly commute on I-95 from Carolina to Maryland. I was putting on
> about 500 miles per week, I got rid of that car when it hit 200k
>
> If you drive a car 5 to 10 miles per day any car will fail as the
> engines never get up to their designed operating temperatures that
> keep the engine and systems clean. The muffler system and other
> parts never get hot enough to dry them out, and the water collects
> and rust the systems. Gaskets dry out and fail as they never get
> completely lubricated.
>
> Bottom line there is nothing to brag about if your car has less the
> 100k.

While I agree that today's cars generally can be expected to give over 200K
miles of near maintenance free service (besides the normal wear stuff), that
most certainly could not have been expected of cars 15 years ago in the rust
belt. There's a lot more at work on a car in the northeast than what you
experience down there in the mid-atlantic. You guys have always enjoyed
longer lived cars down there than what we experienced up here. I realize
you're not really saying that everyone everywhere should see the kind of
life you have experienced - more just pointing out the differences.

I do agree - anything under 100K is a yawn these days. Actually - anything
under 200k is a yawn these days.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 12/24/2013 1:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>>>> use genuine replacement parts.
>>>>
>>> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very
>>> many, aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff. Can't
>>> really boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say
>>> that one should not simply assume that OEM is better. Too much
>>> evidence against that.
>> You can assume the price is higher though. Some aftermarket parts are
>> identical to the OEM, but you don't always know that
> Agreed.
>
They charged me about $17 for a replacement knob for the radio. But gas
was over $4/gallon at the time. I don't have the car anymore. But I
haven't "forgiven" them yet. FWIW, I installed it myself.

[email protected] wrote:

>
> OTOH, my wife's '14 Mustang was back in the shop 6 times (twice when
> we were on vacation), the first month we had it. They should have
> been able to fix it on the first try but they were obviously
> incompetent. They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service turns
> into at least two trips to the dealer.
>

Ugh! That would be annoying.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote:
>
>
>
>> I'm 6'2" and the most headroom I've had in any car was my 1970
>> Beetle.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Agreed, although the 84 Rabbit was close, but the Tacoma P/U is the
> winner.
>
>
> Lew
>

I'm going to be looking at that one next time around. What did you say
about its gas mileage?
Bill

>

Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm 6'2" and the most headroom I've had in any car was my 1970
>>> Beetle.
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> Agreed, although the 84 Rabbit was close, but the Tacoma P/U is the
>> winner.
>>
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> I'm going to be looking at that one next time around. What did you
> say about its gas mileage?
> Bill
>

Wait, I know... Only 100 gallons a year, right! ; )

On 12/24/2013 5:48 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>>> performed on it.
>>>
>>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>>> done on it.
>>
>> I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>> of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
>> car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."
>
> OTOH, my wife's '14 Mustang was back in the shop 6 times (twice when
> we were on vacation), the first month we had it. They should have
> been able to fix it on the first try but they were obviously
> incompetent. They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service turns
> into at least two trips to the dealer.
>
> The convertible is a lot of fun to drive, though. ;-)
>


I remember when the Federal Government changed that tax laws on the
inventories. After that point the service went down because inventories
were fully taxed each year and a company could not afford to maintain
the complete inventories they had previous.y

On 12/24/2013 8:27 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>> I'm going to be looking at that one next time around. What did you
>> say about its gas mileage?
> -------------------------------------------------
> I didn't but my 2.4L, 4 Cyl, 5 Spd Manual and A/C is getting 22-23 MPG
> in city stop and go traffic.
>
> My guess is about 27-28 MPG on the open road.
>
> BTW, the 2.4L is the only engine equipped with a steel timing belt.
>
> None of that rubber belt, change it at 50,000 miles for me.
>
> Truck won't get away from a snail, but it gets me where I want to go.
>
> Lew
>
>
While it's design stinks, you can not put a picnic cooler in the trunk,
the opening is to narrow, and you have to tip up the center console to
reach the emergency brake. Around town I get about 34mpg with my 2010
Cobalt. Several times on long trips I have gotten 40mpg, averaged about
37mpg. These trips were 14hours straight @ 70mph on the interstates to
see my brothers.

My Z-24 2002 Cavalier had over 100k when I got hit and it was totaled.
I don't think I ever had any thing but routine service on the car. It
got about 28 around town and 33 on the open road.

Leon wrote:

>
> Actually if you were the service manager of an American car builder
> saying a 1 day old car not having a problem is not the usual. You
> would be surprised how much warranty work gets done before delivery
> if you have a good make ready department. A so so make ready
> department and the customer gets to bring it back in...

I guess I'm not surprised to hear that. I do know that most people would
have been alarmed at how many new cars had already been repainted or had
some minor body work done at the dealer before the car even got put out for
sale. Not so much now with improved rail cars and protective sheets on the
hoods, etc.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> I'm coming to the conclusion that if you plan to keep the vehicle,
>>> use genuine replacement parts.
>>>
>>
>> That really depends on the manufacturer. I've found many - very
>> many, aftermarkete parts that were far superior to the OEM stuff.
>> Can't really boil that down to who/what/when/where, but I can say
>> that one should not simply assume that OEM is better. Too much
>> evidence against that.
>>
>
>
> You can't assume that all after market is up to par with OEM. I
> have seen a lot of crap out there.

Absolutely - but I had said that in a different post. There is some pure
junk out there.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:49:51 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>> I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
>> of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
>> Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
>> owned one of each.
> Marketing. According to the dealer when I bought my last Buick, the
> average age of Buick owners at the time was 65+. Twentysomethings
> don't buy Roadmasters, Park Avenue, or LeSabre.
I bought a Skylark when I was 24 or so, but to be honest, that engine in
that car didn't age well. Then GM dropped that model from their lineup
because they couldn't make enough money on it. I don't disagree with
what you say though. I may be more the exception than the rule when it
comes to what I have been looking for in a car (comfortable, reliable,
and affordable).


> They wanted names
> that would possibly attract the younger crowd.
>
> http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/03/30/buick-lowers-average-age-of-buyer-but-its-higher-than-norm.html
> The new products have helped to change Buick’s demographics. In 2006,
> Buick buyers on average had celebrated 66 birthdays. Last year the
> number was 57, the company said. The Verano helped, because small cars
> tend to draw younger buyers. But Buick buyers are still older than the
> norm, and the automaker would like to catch more people in their 40s.
> The average car buyer in the U.S. is 52, says the auto-pricing site
> TrueCar.com.

[email protected] wrote:
> Since Rangers are no longer made (2011 was the last year, IIRC), I
> bought an F150 this time. I like it a lot! The price they were asking
> for Rangers was outrageous. $22K for a 2010 with 20K miles or $18K for
> an '11 with 50K. I paid $25K for a new '13 F150 XLT.
Plus sales tax?

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:04:47 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:27:34 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>> done on it.
>
>We bought a 2006 PT Cruiser in 2007 that had 18,000 miles on it. We've
>still got it. The dealer replaced the leaky rear seal (a known problem)
>before he'd let us buy it. Other than normal maintenance, only thing
>replaced has been the front brakes at around 50,000. Mileage is now
>around 60,000 mostly city miles with a lot of stop and go driving. We're
>pretty happy with the car.
>
>I see a lot of them on the road and very few in the for sale ads. The
>owners must like them. So of course Chrysler stopped making them :-).
>
>BTW, with the seats folded down I can carry 8' lumber - one of the
>reasons I selected it.

I could get 10' lumber in my Voyagers but they still sucked. Neither
made it to 10 years or 100K miles. Neither did my Vision TSi or the
Chrysler Intrepid.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:56:25 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Our latest Toyota vehicle that my wife drives has about 15,000 miles
>>> on it and is 16 months old. We have yet to have any warranty work
>>> performed on it.
>>
>> That's not surprising. I'm sure there is even a Chrysler, out there
>> somewhere, that's a couple of years old that hasn't had warranty work
>> done on it.
>
>I agree. I do not consider 15,000 miles or 16 months of age to be any sort
>of endorsment of anything. Might just as well say "I just picked up my new
>car today, and I haven't had a single problem yet..."

OTOH, my wife's '14 Mustang was back in the shop 6 times (twice when
we were on vacation), the first month we had it. They should have
been able to fix it on the first try but they were obviously
incompetent. They don't keep any parts on hand, so any service turns
into at least two trips to the dealer.

The convertible is a lot of fun to drive, though. ;-)

On 12/25/2013 6:13 PM, jo4hn wrote:

> I gave a 2000 Ford Ranger to my grandson this year. Had 60K miles on
> it. Barely broken in. Insurance is quite a bit cheaper.
>

If he is like my grandson it will be gone in a few months anyway.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:49:51 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:



>>
>I thought it was interesting (strange) when Buick dropped virtually all
>of their old models, to introduce new ones ( LaCrosse, etc.). I think
>Regal is the only one they kept (but I could be mistaken). I've almost
>owned one of each.

Marketing. According to the dealer when I bought my last Buick, the
average age of Buick owners at the time was 65+. Twentysomethings
don't buy Roadmasters, Park Avenue, or LeSabre. They wanted names
that would possibly attract the younger crowd.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/03/30/buick-lowers-average-age-of-buyer-but-its-higher-than-norm.html
The new products have helped to change Buick’s demographics. In 2006,
Buick buyers on average had celebrated 66 birthdays. Last year the
number was 57, the company said. The Verano helped, because small cars
tend to draw younger buyers. But Buick buyers are still older than the
norm, and the automaker would like to catch more people in their 40s.
The average car buyer in the U.S. is 52, says the auto-pricing site
TrueCar.com.

On 12/24/2013 7:56 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

>
> I consider a car with 70k just broke in and ready for the next 100k of
> trouble free driving.


At 70k my Buick was not broken in, just broke. Transmission, heated
seat, climate control, brake lines, dash lights, steering wheel controls
and more. Had I known you loved cars like that I'd have given it to
you. I did give it away as I felt it unethical to sell it.

At two years and 40k miles the seat heater burned out. To have it
fixed, dealer wanted $672 to replace the entire seat bottom, not just
the element. Since it was under the 3 years but over the miles, I asked
GM for some help. They would give me $500 off if I bought a new car.
Last GM car for me.