What is the perfect router/shaper table?

> > My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like
> > .032 or
> > more!
>
> .001 is overkill for even the finest woodwoorking. Given the nature
> of the material, where a change in humidity can make a measurable change
in
> the dimensions of a piece you cut yesterday, it is wasted effort to work
to
> machinist's tolerance in the cabinetmaker's shop.
>
I wasn't refering to the woodworking being within Machinist tolerances, just
the
equipment you use. So much of the equipment I have seen has such slop in the
adjustments that you never end up with the same thing twice, and if you do
it
is only after you go through 3 test cuts to get it correct. You should see
how nice
something comes out when I stick a piece of wood in my metalworking
equipment.

Can mill to a mil or 2 on this one:
http://www.patwarner.com/images/bdpwf.jpg
******************************************************************
> Let me post this question to all the very experienced woodworkers out here.
> First a little background information.
>
> I am a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Machinist/Certified Welder that has done
> carpentry work for a lot of
> my 47 years, but I never had the space for a workshop to do the cabinet
> making, woodworking type of work.
>
> About a year ago I moved and now have a place for a small woodshop in my
> basement. I have been looking at
> router tables and even a shaper to outfit my collection of tools, but quite
> frankly, they are all junk in my opinion, especially
> the protractor heads that I have seen. Their version of precision and mine
> are two different things.
> My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like .032 or
> more!
>
> So......I got to thinking that I can make the same thing that is a LOT
> better than what I can buy. My question to everyone
> is if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what features would
> it have, especially things that no one has
> seen offered on it before? I have not been doing this nearly as long as lot
> of people out there have, so I am looking for
> some guide lines as to what would really be a nice feature to have.
>
> I am an experienced 3D drafter also, so I am planning on building this in
> the computer and then generate the drawings for
> the parts, so if I can come up with something workable, I will have the
> plans available for others if they are interested.
>
> Thanks for everyone's input.
>
> Ron

Ron S. wrote:>What is the perfect router/shaper table?

>I am a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Machinist/Certified Welder that has done
>carpentry work for a lot of
>my 47 years, but I never had the space for a workshop to do the cabinet
>making, woodworking type of work.
>
>About a year ago I moved and now have a place for a small woodshop in my
>basement. I have been looking at
>router tables and even a shaper to outfit my collection of tools, but quite
>frankly, they are all junk in my opinion, especially
>the protractor heads that I have seen. Their version of precision and mine
>are two different things.
> My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like .032 or
>more!
>
>So......I got to thinking that I can make the same thing that is a LOT
>better than what I can buy. My question to everyone
>is if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what features would
>it have, especially things that no one has
>seen offered on it before? I have not been doing this nearly as long as lot
>of people out there have, so I am looking for
>some guide lines as to what would really be a nice feature to have.
>
>I am an experienced 3D drafter also, so I am planning on building this in
>the computer and then generate the drawings for
>the parts, so if I can come up with something workable, I will have the
>plans available for others if they are interested.
>
>Thanks for everyone's input.
>
>Ron
A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable), good dust
collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I doubt
there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others here think.
Tom
Someday, it'll all be over....

Ron, buy the user manual and the video for teh Veritas router table.
It has a pretty good (and deluxe) set of features.



"Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Let me post this question to all the very experienced woodworkers out here.
> First a little background information.
>
> I am a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Machinist/Certified Welder that has done
> carpentry work for a lot of
> my 47 years, but I never had the space for a workshop to do the cabinet
> making, woodworking type of work.
>
> About a year ago I moved and now have a place for a small woodshop in my
> basement. I have been looking at
> router tables and even a shaper to outfit my collection of tools, but quite
> frankly, they are all junk in my opinion, especially
> the protractor heads that I have seen. Their version of precision and mine
> are two different things.
> My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like .032 or
> more!
>
> So......I got to thinking that I can make the same thing that is a LOT
> better than what I can buy. My question to everyone
> is if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what features would
> it have, especially things that no one has
> seen offered on it before? I have not been doing this nearly as long as lot
> of people out there have, so I am looking for
> some guide lines as to what would really be a nice feature to have.
>
> I am an experienced 3D drafter also, so I am planning on building this in
> the computer and then generate the drawings for
> the parts, so if I can come up with something workable, I will have the
> plans available for others if they are interested.
>
> Thanks for everyone's input.
>
> Ron

Mon, Nov 24, 2003, 9:30pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Ron=A0S.) says:
<snip>Their version of precision and mine are two different things.
<snip> if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what
features would it have, <snip>

Basically, what Scott says. Wood moves, metal doesn't. If you
work to too close of tolerences. you could wind up with a project that
self-destructs.

I've got my ideal router table. Piece of plywood, 2X4 frame,
bolted to a shelf. No fence, but if I needed one, I'd use a piece of
2X2 or 2X4, and a couple of clamps.

My projects may change a bit in the future, so may build one or two
more router tables. With a piece of plywood, chunks of 2X4, and bolts.
Custom made. LOL It all depends on what your needs are. That covers
mine, at this time.

JOAT
Of course I don't think you're a complete idiot. Some parts are
missing.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Nov 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:01:39 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
scribbled

>> Something kinda cool about once being a prison colony, eh?
>
>Funny, you used the past tense - ahh, you haven't met our politicians...

Speaking of which, the story recently broke that the current premier
of the Yukon did time in the pen (penitentiary - federal prison,
Keith) for selling heroin.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" for real email address

If you look up his site it says the plans are available from FWW no144 and
he sells the fence itself for around $465.

http://www.patwarner.com/routerfence.html

For me, I don't want to ship the fence to Australia but perhaps a hardware
kit is available?

Greg


"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Routerman P. Warner wrote:
> >Can mill to a mil or 2 on this one:
> >http://www.patwarner.com/images/bdpwf.jpg
>
>
> And a sweet (sweetest) fence it is. Pat, if memory serves
> me you sell this fence? Is it available in "plans" form
> anywhere (a book/downloadable/past magazine article)?
>
> UA100, currently (OK, it's stalled at the moment) building
> An Ultimate Router Table (The Tom Watson Model)...

http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct3.cgi?0301
I built a modified version of the above and love it. Lots better then my old
crapsman.

--
Mike S.
[email protected]

"nuk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have you looked at the Veritas table top and fence over at Lee Valley's
> web site here
>
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=43885&category=1&SID=&ccurrency=1
>
> Might be a little closer to what you have in mind.
>
> HTH,
>
> nuk
> --
> I know more than enough *nix to do some very destructive things,
> and not nearly enough to do very many useful things.

How about the ability to go vertical and horizontal. Also to be able to
tilt the router as well. Next a split fence that stays aligned with each
half and can use zero insert blocks.




"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Rlxwb.219006$mZ5.1663728@attbi_s54...
> What advantage would this have over a tilting arbor shaper?
>
> Art
>
> "Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > > >
> > > >> A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable),
good
> > dust
> > > collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I
doubt
> > > there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others
here
> > think.
> > > Tom
> > > Someday, it'll all be over....
> >
> > These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
> > on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be
in
> > the
> > same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees,
you
> > could
> > tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.
> >
> >
>
>

What advantage would this have over a tilting arbor shaper?

Art

"Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > >
> > >> A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable), good
> dust
> > collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I doubt
> > there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others here
> think.
> > Tom
> > Someday, it'll all be over....
>
> These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
> on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be in
> the
> same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees, you
> could
> tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.
>
>

> >
> >> A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable), good
dust
> collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I doubt
> there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others here
think.
> Tom
> Someday, it'll all be over....

These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be in
the
same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees, you
could
tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.

"Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ron,
>
> Take a look at Pat Warner's site www.patwarner.com and look at the router
> fence he builds (and sells). This is an improved version but two years
ago,
> this was a featured article in FWW. I built (several) and have modified
it
> slightly for my personal preferences but all the design features that make
> it so accurate are all Pat's. It was a fun project and will test your
> abilities if you decide to build one.
>
> Combine that with a good router lift (I have the Jessem, Rout-R-Lift) and
I
> can dial in .001 settings and make them repeatable if needed. Pat also
has
> some excellent books you may be interested in plus a lot of info on his
site
> about routers in general along with what makes a good table etc.
>
> My father was a tool and die maker so I know something about machine
> tolerances - and then I learned, wood moves!
>
> Bob S.
>

When you get down to it, EVERYTHING moves, including steel. Knowing how it
is
going to move is half of the battle when you are machining and designing
something.
Yes, I got frustrated many years ago when I would try to fit wood to the
same tolerances
and fits as I do with steel.
Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

Ron

On 24 Nov 2003, Ron S. spake unto rec.woodworking:

> Let me post this question to all the very experienced woodworkers out
> here. First a little background information.
>
> I am a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Machinist/Certified Welder that has
> done carpentry work for a lot of
> my 47 years, but I never had the space for a workshop to do the
> cabinet making, woodworking type of work.
>
> About a year ago I moved and now have a place for a small woodshop in
> my basement. I have been looking at
> router tables and even a shaper to outfit my collection of tools, but
> quite frankly, they are all junk in my opinion, especially
> the protractor heads that I have seen. Their version of precision and
> mine are two different things.
> My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like
> .032 or
> more!

.001 is overkill for even the finest woodwoorking. Given the nature
of the material, where a change in humidity can make a measurable change in
the dimensions of a piece you cut yesterday, it is wasted effort to work to
machinist's tolerance in the cabinetmaker's shop.

> So......I got to thinking that I can make the same thing that is a LOT
> better than what I can buy. My question to everyone
> is if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what features
> would it have, especially things that no one has
> seen offered on it before? I have not been doing this nearly as long
> as lot of people out there have, so I am looking for
> some guide lines as to what would really be a nice feature to have.

You'll get as many different answers as there are woodworkers. A
piece of plywood with a hole in it, with the router screwed into it and a
straight piece of scrap clamped to it for a fence, will do as good a job,
in skilled hands, as the latest laser-guided micrometer-adjustable table-
flat-to-within-one-wavelength job designed primarily to lighten your
wallet.

> I am an experienced 3D drafter also, so I am planning on building this
> in the computer and then generate the drawings for
> the parts, so if I can come up with something workable, I will have
> the plans available for others if they are interested.

Search google for "ultimate router table" and report back when you've
exhausted the possibilities ;^)

Scott

On 24-Nov-2003, Scott Cramer <[email protected]> wrote:

> .001 is overkill for even the finest woodwoorking. Given the nature
> of the material, where a change in humidity can make a measurable change in
> the dimensions of a piece you cut yesterday, it is wasted effort to work to
> machinist's tolerance in the cabinetmaker's shop.

This seems like reasonable advice, but there is another thing to consider.
Every step in the production of any widget introduces errors in dimensions
and fit. If the errors add up (in general they add and subtract, so _some_
cancel out) then the net dimensions are not what was designed. If you
eliminate or reduce the introduction of errors, the end result comes closer
to what was designed. So it seems that making it as accurately as possible
is desirable, even if the accuracy is small compared to the material
characteristics.

Back in the days of slide rules, engineers didn't do calculations to better
than three significant digits. When computers came into their world, many
said things like "Don't use double precision, since the data is only good
to three digits and we never did that with slide rules." Sounds good, but
they were doing things they never did with slide rules. I once demonstrated
that single precision finite element analysis could reduce the accuracy of
three digit input to two digit output! Hence, don't introduce errors in
the process. By using double precision, the output is as accurate as the
input.

Hence, I'd like the most accuracy possible. It might not make it better,
but it won't make it worse.

Mike

To get the parts I am thinking I need to go to 50 stores to narrow it down
to the 8 that will have the parts. Of course, those 8 will say sure, we can
order them in (from guess where) and it will take 3-4 weeks. No individual
store will be able to order all the parts at once.

Civilised? Us? Be careful what you accuse us of.

cheers,

Greg


"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Groggy wrote:
> >If you look up his site it says the plans are available from FWW no144
and
> >he sells the fence itself for around $465.
>
> sigh... I had seen this a couple weeks/month ago. Went
> downstairs to The Room Where Daddy Keeps His Dirty Paper (tm
> Claire, age 8) and extracted the issue. Trouble is/was I
> think my dicksleckssea musta kicked in onna 'count of all I
> found was an article on router (ultimate type) tables.
>
> >http://www.patwarner.com/routerfence.html
>
> >For me, I don't want to ship the fence to Australia but perhaps a
hardware
> >kit is available?
>
> I would think there would be a supply house down there
> similar to McMaster-Carr, MSC, Reid Tool? If not, ya guys
> ain't made things civilized yet.
>
> UA100, Fine Wooddorking subscriber since Issue 11, owner of
> the complete set...

" internet I am proceeding assuming it is <<insert *NOT* here>> OT and
relevant."

"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Groggy wrote:
> >To get the parts I am thinking I need to go to 50 stores to narrow it
down
> >to the 8 that will have the parts. Of course, those 8 will say sure, we
can
> >order them in (from guess where) and it will take 3-4 weeks. No
individual
> >store will be able to order all the parts at once.
>
> Has Al Gore's World Wild Web made things any easier?

Unfortunately there are probably only three companies that are trying to
make a go of e-commerce, we just don't have the competitors you guys have.

> >Civilised? Us? Be careful what you accuse us of.
>
> Something kinda cool about once being a prison colony, eh?

Funny, you used the past tense - ahh, you haven't met our politicians...

Greg

Routerman P. Warner wrote:
>Can mill to a mil or 2 on this one:
>http://www.patwarner.com/images/bdpwf.jpg


And a sweet (sweetest) fence it is. Pat, if memory serves
me you sell this fence? Is it available in "plans" form
anywhere (a book/downloadable/past magazine article)?

UA100, currently (OK, it's stalled at the moment) building
An Ultimate Router Table (The Tom Watson Model)...

I believe it is the only one and a peice of Crap at that I think It is made
from all phenolic, I wrote and asked them they have not responded.
If it is metal with a phenolic plate i am interested If all phenolic it will
not hold up.

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:21:23 GMT, "Ron S."
> <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
> >on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be
in
> >the
> >same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees,
you
> >could
> >tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.
> >
>
> There are commercial router tables available that allow the cutter to
> tilt in relation to the table and fence. I think one is sold by
> Woodhaven.
>
> Barry

Ron,

Take a look at Pat Warner's site www.patwarner.com and look at the router
fence he builds (and sells). This is an improved version but two years ago,
this was a featured article in FWW. I built (several) and have modified it
slightly for my personal preferences but all the design features that make
it so accurate are all Pat's. It was a fun project and will test your
abilities if you decide to build one.

Combine that with a good router lift (I have the Jessem, Rout-R-Lift) and I
can dial in .001 settings and make them repeatable if needed. Pat also has
some excellent books you may be interested in plus a lot of info on his site
about routers in general along with what makes a good table etc.

My father was a tool and die maker so I know something about machine
tolerances - and then I learned, wood moves!

Bob S.



"Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let me post this question to all the very experienced woodworkers out
here.
> First a little background information.
>
> I am a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Machinist/Certified Welder that has
done
> carpentry work for a lot of
> my 47 years, but I never had the space for a workshop to do the cabinet
> making, woodworking type of work.
>
> About a year ago I moved and now have a place for a small woodshop in my
> basement. I have been looking at
> router tables and even a shaper to outfit my collection of tools, but
quite
> frankly, they are all junk in my opinion, especially
> the protractor heads that I have seen. Their version of precision and mine
> are two different things.
> My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like .032
or
> more!
>
> So......I got to thinking that I can make the same thing that is a LOT
> better than what I can buy. My question to everyone
> is if you could design your dream router stand/ shaper, what features
would
> it have, especially things that no one has
> seen offered on it before? I have not been doing this nearly as long as
lot
> of people out there have, so I am looking for
> some guide lines as to what would really be a nice feature to have.
>
> I am an experienced 3D drafter also, so I am planning on building this in
> the computer and then generate the drawings for
> the parts, so if I can come up with something workable, I will have the
> plans available for others if they are interested.
>
> Thanks for everyone's input.
>
> Ron
>
>

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:21:23 GMT, "Ron S."
<rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
>on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be in
>the
>same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees, you
>could
>tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.
>

There are commercial router tables available that allow the cutter to
tilt in relation to the table and fence. I think one is sold by
Woodhaven.

Barry

For What reason ????
"Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > >
> > >> A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable), good
> dust
> > collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I
doubt
> > there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others here
> think.
> > Tom
> > Someday, it'll all be over....
>
> These are the things I was wondering about. Would an angular adjustment
> on the fence be of value. The adjustment I was wondering about would be in
> the
> same plane as the cutter axis, eg instead of being fixed at 90 degrees,
you
> could
> tilt it back, sort of like the fence on a jointer.
>
>

Tom wrote:

> A really flat table, a very straight fence, (microadjustable), good dust
> collection, and ease of height adjustment (also microadjustable). I doubt
> there's much that hasn't been attempted, but let's see what others here
> think.

Don't forget to put a Huge Ass Router into it, or it isn't much good.


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Groggy wrote:
>To get the parts I am thinking I need to go to 50 stores to narrow it down
>to the 8 that will have the parts. Of course, those 8 will say sure, we can
>order them in (from guess where) and it will take 3-4 weeks. No individual
>store will be able to order all the parts at once.

Has Al Gore's World Wild Web made things any easier?

>Civilised? Us? Be careful what you accuse us of.

Something kinda cool about once being a prison colony, eh?

UA100

Have you looked at the Veritas table top and fence over at Lee Valley's
web site here
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=43885&category=1&SID=&ccurrency=1

Might be a little closer to what you have in mind.

HTH,

nuk
--
I know more than enough *nix to do some very destructive things,
and not nearly enough to do very many useful things.

Groggy wrote:
>Unfortunately there are probably only three companies that are trying to
>make a go of e-commerce, we just don't have the competitors you guys have.

All the others are making a go of it but they aren't quite
sure yet why.

>Funny, you used the past tense - ahh, you haven't met our politicians...

That and it used to be a prison colony, right? We, back
here in the states, are trying to take this honor and make
it our own.

Oops! That'll get the OTers yacking for sure.

UA100, who has already sent it OT...

Groggy wrote:
>If you look up his site it says the plans are available from FWW no144 and
>he sells the fence itself for around $465.

sigh... I had seen this a couple weeks/month ago. Went
downstairs to The Room Where Daddy Keeps His Dirty Paper (tm
Claire, age 8) and extracted the issue. Trouble is/was I
think my dicksleckssea musta kicked in onna 'count of all I
found was an article on router (ultimate type) tables.

>http://www.patwarner.com/routerfence.html

>For me, I don't want to ship the fence to Australia but perhaps a hardware
>kit is available?

I would think there would be a supply house down there
similar to McMaster-Carr, MSC, Reid Tool? If not, ya guys
ain't made things civilized yet.

UA100, Fine Wooddorking subscriber since Issue 11, owner of
the complete set...

If your looking for 0.001 try this link to the Incra LS positioner
http://tinyurl.com/wf1y

--
Erik "Grumpa" Ahrens
Apprentice Termite
I'd much rather be hammered than nailed 8~)


"Ron S." <rwsulli@(nospam)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > > My precision deals with .001 of an inch or less. Their's seems like
> > > .032 or
> > > more!
> >
> > .001 is overkill for even the finest woodwoorking. Given the nature
> > of the material, where a change in humidity can make a measurable change
> in
> > the dimensions of a piece you cut yesterday, it is wasted effort to work
> to
> > machinist's tolerance in the cabinetmaker's shop.
> >
> I wasn't refering to the woodworking being within Machinist tolerances, just
> the
> equipment you use. So much of the equipment I have seen has such slop in the
> adjustments that you never end up with the same thing twice, and if you do
> it
> is only after you go through 3 test cuts to get it correct. You should see
> how nice
> something comes out when I stick a piece of wood in my metalworking
> equipment.
>
>