Turning Fresh Stock

Jack wrote:
> On 9/10/2015 9:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
>> have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
>> on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
>> common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
>> the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
>> there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
>> behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
>> Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
>> not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
>> it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
>> generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
>> wood in February.
>
> A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
> more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees
> in the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I guess to
> protect them from freezing, and around February begin pumping the
> moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for maple syrup:-)
>
> This greatly effects both drying time for furniture as well as burning.
> I once cut a maple in late October, and 3 months later made slats for
> a rocking chair seat and the wood was quite dry. It even surprised me.
>
Good point. I like wood for turning that was felled in December or
January. Just started turning some wood that was felled in June.
Lots of it became moldy before it finished drying. Also, having more
water in it, it tends to warp and crack more while drying.

--
GW Ross

I plan on living forever. So far, so good.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 3:41:57 PM UTC-5, SBH wrote:
> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with=
=20
> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters=20
> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape=
=20
> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the=
=20
> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now=20
> need wooden handles to fit.
>=20
> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized=
=20
> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped=
=20
> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).=20
> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than=
=20
> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.=20
> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about=20
> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any=
=20
> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main=20
> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it=
=20
> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.=20
> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>=20
> Thanks

Yes, turning green is really satisfying but I would encourage you to seal t=
he end grain with paint or poly. Otherwise, it may well check or crack beca=
use end grains dry far faster that the rest of the piece. Also, I wouldn't =
use silver maple for handles. It's too soft in my view.

Your green wood has a relative moisture content of 100 percent. Stable and =
thus workable wood is around 12 percent. With dry houses (these days), indo=
or furniture should be around 8 percent.=20

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>>>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled
>>>> with small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide
>>>> cutters which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a
>>>> diamond shape and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have
>>>> one holder for the other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of
>>>> square SS stock and now need wooden handles to fit.
>>>>
>>>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I
>>>> realized the size of some of the branches would be great for my
>>>> handles. I shaped one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned"
>>>> out (pun intended). The question I have is about the freshness of
>>>> the wood. It was less than 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut
>>>> a piece for the handle. Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to
>>>> turn. I've heard about letting wood sit to dry out, then finish.
>>>> This is the part I haven't any knowledge on. What length of time is
>>>> required to dry out? Is the main reason to dry for finishes or
>>>> easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it being for easier turning.
>>>> That bark and shavings came off like butter. Overall, how do I
>>>> handle turning fresh stock? Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per
>>> inch of thickness.
>>>
>>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
>>> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length,
>>> dry for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
>>> surely change shape as they dry.
>>>
>>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
>>> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
>>> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
>>> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>>
>>>
>> One of the easiest ways to try wood that's been turned is to stick it
>> in a box of saw dust, or shavings. It draws it out quicker than air
>> drying and it doesn't stress it like other methods.
>
> Would alcohol work? It has great affinity for water; if one were to immerse
> the piece in alcohol for a while and then remove it, would the alcohol have
> mixed with the wood's water leaving it drier?

The slower it dries the less chance of splitting or warping. Speeding the
process might cares un even drying.

Meanie wrote:
> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
> need wooden handles to fit.
>
> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>
> Thanks
>
It helps to seal the end grain with wax or Anchor-seal (which is a
wax-in-water emulsion). This slows the loss of water through the end
grain and promotes more even drying throughout the piece, therefore
less checking.

I turn my bowls thicker than the finished bowl will be. Thickness of
10 percent of the total diameter. Then I put them in a paper bag to
dry. The bag makes a micro-climate inside, slowing the drying. After
1 month I start weighing the pieces with a digital gram scale every 2
weeks and write the weight on the piece with a pencil. When the
weight loss stops, it is dry for all practical purposes. Different
woods dry at different speeds, averaging 3-5 months for a bowl with a
wall thickness of 3/4 inch. It will no longer be round, so the finish
turning corrects this.

Also, avoid using wood with the heart (pith) in it, as it will usually
split IME.

--
GW Ross

Ever wonder what the speed of
lightning would be if it didn't zigzag?

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>> of thickness.
>>
>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
>> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry
>> for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
>> surely change shape as they dry.
>>
>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
>> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
>> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
>> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>
>
> Would coating the freshly turned pieces with Anchor Seal or similar help
> prevent checks as the wood dries?
>
> Puckdropper

"Maybe". Most sealers are used on the ends of the wood/ log. After turning
you have exposed a lot of extra wood normally protected by bark. Seal those
surfaces and it may not dry at all. BUT I have seen a lot of pieces
totally sealed at local suppliers. Hard to tell if they are or were dried
properly before being sealed.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Good burning wood is typically horrible for building. It has been
>> split and cracked and lost its moisture way too quickly. That is why
>> it has cracks and splits.
>>
>
> Yup - I fully get the difference between the two pieces of wood, but you're
> missing my point. If a hunk of maple can dry to 10% (or whatever it may
> be...) in chunk form within 3 months or so, then a 1" slab should not take 1
> year to dry the same way. It does not matter what the intended use of the
> wood is, it's still just a piece of wood. The same kind of wood. If
> anything, the 1" piece should dry faster.
>
> I question why you say the split piece has lost its moisture too quickly.
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but it can only lose its moisture at a
> given rate. It can't lose it it any faster than a board of the same wood.
> In fact, I would think the board would lose it faster, given the surface
> area of the board.


Split firewood is shorter and typically has numerous splits. While the
majority of the drying is through the ends, splits can effectively make
parts of the firewood thinner in spots. But shorter pieces is the main
difference. Lumber is seldom cut shorter than eight feet for drying. It
takes much longer for the moisture to reach the ends of the wood than 18-24
inch firewood.

On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
>> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
>> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
>> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
>> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
>> need wooden handles to fit.
>>
>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
>> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
>> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
>> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
>> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
>> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
>> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
>> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
>> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
>> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
>> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
> of thickness.
>
> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size and
> length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry for a
> few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will surely
> change shape as they dry.
>
> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change shape
> and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green piece to
> rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so before turning
> to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>
>
One of the easiest ways to try wood that's been turned is to stick it in
a box of saw dust, or shavings. It draws it out quicker than air drying
and it doesn't stress it like other methods.



--
Jeff

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Good burning wood is typically horrible for building. It has been
>> split and cracked and lost its moisture way too quickly. That is why
>> it has cracks and splits.
>>
>
> Yup - I fully get the difference between the two pieces of wood, but you're
> missing my point. If a hunk of maple can dry to 10% (or whatever it may
> be...) in chunk form within 3 months or so, then a 1" slab should not take 1
> year to dry the same way. It does not matter what the intended use of the
> wood is, it's still just a piece of wood. The same kind of wood. If
> anything, the 1" piece should dry faster.
>
> I question why you say the split piece has lost its moisture too quickly.
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but it can only lose its moisture at a
> given rate. It can't lose it it any faster than a board of the same wood.
> In fact, I would think the board would lose it faster, given the surface
> area of the board.
>
Perhaps in shorter pieces the endgrain is closer to the center than
long boards, and much of the water is lost though the endgrain. That
is the logic behind sealing the end grain to retard drying.

--
GW Ross

A conclusion is the place where you
get tired of thinking. (Arthur Bloch)

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 8:30:33 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
> On 9/11/2015 6:52 PM, Meanie wrote:
>
> > The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
> > aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
> > reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
> > just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
> > and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
> > middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
> > warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
> > I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.
> >
> > It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
> > types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
> > harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
> > good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
> > over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
> > sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
> > into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.
>
> Silver Maple is perfect for lathe, chisel and file tool handles. Walnut
> is better saved for other things, like cutting boards, small boxes, trim
> inlays and that sort of stuff. Not that it wouldn't make good handles,
> just it's a little special for a utilitarian handle. I made my daughter
> a nice wedding goblet with the captured rings out of a "firewood" black
> walnut log. I like mixing maple, cherry and walnut in cutting boards.
> Gives them a nice traditional look.
>
> When taping the ends of your blanks, remember it takes about a year per
> inch to dry wood, maybe less if cut in the fall, early winter. I have a
> box full of wood blanks of all sizes I keep. Some pieces are 40 years
> old. I would guess most anyone with a lathe has the same box:-). If
> you ever go to a woodworkers store like Rockler and price little turning
> blocks, you will instantly know why a nice looking hunk of firewood is
> worth saving.
>
> Turning bowls, lamps, is most fun with green wood, the greener the
> better. Lot's of techniques posted on here for drying. I used to melt
> paraffin wax all over the rough turning and that worked. I'd try the
> paper bag thing I think. If you get checks, even big ones, you can mix
> epoxy and saw dust, or a variety of things and sometimes get result
> better than if they weren't there.
>
> --
> Jack
> Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
> http://jbstein.com

You can also build one of these bad boys. Your drying time will be cut down from months to weeks. That's my plan for the fall and I'm sticking to it.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WoodDrying/wood_kiln.htm

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
> of thickness.
>
> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry
> for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
> surely change shape as they dry.
>
> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>

Would coating the freshly turned pieces with Anchor Seal or similar help
prevent checks as the wood dries?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Somebody wrote:


>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>> leaks
>> bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
>> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
--------------------------------------------------
"Michael" wrote:

> Yes, green will burn, e.g., forest fires.
-------------------------------------------------
Sorry folks, you are getting the horse-s**t confused with the alfalfa.

Water boils at 212F.

Wood fibers combust at a much higher temperature.

The 212F water must be vaporized and driven off before the
remaining wood fibers can begin to combust.

If you can create conditions where the wood fiber is at or above
combustion temperature and water vapor has not exceeded 212F,
you get the conditions where fibers are burning and adjacent fibers
are just smoldering.

In whatever configuration you have, vaporizing water reduces the
efficiency of the combustion process.

Lew


Lew

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:06:52 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>=20
> > Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
> > the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
> > of thickness.
>=20
> This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same thing=20
> stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting firewood - admite=
dly=20
> a somewhat different thing. That said, I can cut a tree in August or=20
> September, and be burning that tree in December or January - very well.=
=20
> BTW - I'm talking about burning Maple, Beech and Cherry. Green trees sh=
ow=20
> that they are green in the wood stove, by the amount of vapor that they p=
ut=20
> off while trying to burn. A decently dried piece of hardwood will burn a=
nd=20
> put off heat.
>=20
> Now think about that - these are pieces of wood that are perhaps in the=
=20
> neighborhood of 4 or 5 inches in diameter (if they were really round=20
> pieces), so they should take 4 or 5 years to dry by this age old adage.=
=20
> But - they do not.
>=20
> So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning wood and=
=20
> what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that great. If=20
> firewood can cure to high quality burning within 2 or 3 or 4 months (whil=
e=20
> split at much larger sizes), then it just does not make sense to me that=
=20
> dimensional lumber requires these conventional thinking drying times.
>=20
> Yes - I understand the concept of wood movement and the way it is spoken =
of,=20
> but I really have to question just how real that stuff actually is. It h=
as=20
> often occured to me that even the best, most properly dried piece of wood=
is=20
> subject to absorbing moisture just by sitting in the garage, so it seems=
=20
> some of this is over exagerated stuff. But - that's not my argument, it'=
s=20
> just the things I think about when people talk about all this stuff.=20
> Mostly - conversation at this point.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -Mike-
> [email protected]

The 1 year of drying for 1 inch of thickness concept applies to moisture co=
ming out of the face grain of wood. Not the end grain. So it is possible =
a 2 inch thick piece of wood might take 2 years of drying to get down to 8%=
moisture content if the end grain was sealed with paint or tar or wax. Al=
l of the drying occurs through the non-porous face grain. Very slowly. An=
d hopefully this slow loss of moisture will prevent cracks in the wood.

Your story of firewood drying quickly is about the wood drying through the =
end grain. Since you do not coat the firewood end grain when it is drying.=
None of the moisture loss occurs through the sides of the logs waiting to=
be burned. All the moisture evaporates through the end grain. And of cou=
rse your firewood is not as dry as furniture wood. It might be 15-20-25% m=
oisture content. More than dry enough to burn nicely. While furniture woo=
d is around 8% moisture content. And I suspect the last few percentage of =
drying takes longer than the first few percentage. Drying of wood is not l=
inear. It takes much, much longer to go from 15% to 10% than it does to go=
from 35% to 30%.

On 9/9/2015 11:06 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>> of thickness.
>
> This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same thing
> stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting firewood - admitedly
> a somewhat different thing. That said, I can cut a tree in August or
> September, and be burning that tree in December or January - very well.
> BTW - I'm talking about burning Maple, Beech and Cherry. Green trees show
> that they are green in the wood stove, by the amount of vapor that they put
> off while trying to burn. A decently dried piece of hardwood will burn and
> put off heat.
>
> Now think about that - these are pieces of wood that are perhaps in the
> neighborhood of 4 or 5 inches in diameter (if they were really round
> pieces), so they should take 4 or 5 years to dry by this age old adage.
> But - they do not.
>
> So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning wood and
> what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that great. If
> firewood can cure to high quality burning within 2 or 3 or 4 months (while
> split at much larger sizes), then it just does not make sense to me that
> dimensional lumber requires these conventional thinking drying times.


Good burning wood is typically horrible for building. It has been split
and cracked and lost its moisture way too quickly. That is why it has
cracks and splits.




>
> Yes - I understand the concept of wood movement and the way it is spoken of,
> but I really have to question just how real that stuff actually is. It has
> often occured to me that even the best, most properly dried piece of wood is
> subject to absorbing moisture just by sitting in the garage, so it seems
> some of this is over exagerated stuff. But - that's not my argument, it's
> just the things I think about when people talk about all this stuff.
> Mostly - conversation at this point.
>
>

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
>> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
>
> Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true Leon. It
> will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning wood for too many
> years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn green wood. I guess it
> depends on your definition of the word "burns".
>
Well I only burned our fireplace in our other home for 30 years. It burns
and is gone by morning. FWIW I burned in a fireplace and not a stove.
Perhaps the limited air flow of a stove hampers the burn.



>
>>
>> You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
>> firewood. It would change shape quickly.
>> I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
>> that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.
>
> I agree with what you say and I tried to state that in my original thoughts,
> but I still wonder about the whole notion of 1 year of drying time per inch
> of wood.
>
>

On 9/11/2015 10:00 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>
>>
>> A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
>> more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees in
>> the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I
>> guess to protect them from freezing, and around February begin
>> pumping the moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for
>> maple syrup:-)
>
> Well that is certainly true but with Ash in particular, you can cut it down
> any time of the year and immediately burn it and get good heat. It's
> somewhat unique among the types of trees that grow around here, in that
> respect. (I'm in Central NY by the way).
>
>
Same goes with mesquite, we used to always go straight from the tree to
the pit when cooking many years ago.

On 9/11/2015 10:02 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>
>>
>> Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green
>> or dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
>> years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
>> dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
>> (after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).
>>
>> The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
>> out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
>> much.
>
> Absolutely correct.
>

And there is that reason of not getting filthy dirty when carrying with
loaded arms, wet wood.

As a relatively new turner myself, I offer two pieces of advice:

1. Visit the turners' forum at Sawmill Creek. Lots of experienced turners willing to answer fundamental questions.

2. See if there is an AAW chapter in your community. (That's American Association of Woodturners.) Some chapters have mentoring programs aimed at helping beginners navigate what can be a steep learning curve.

Good luck,

Larry

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 3:41:57 PM UTC-5, SBH wrote:
> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
> need wooden handles to fit.
>
> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>
> Thanks

The Wood stove has like mine has outside air flow from a 6" pipe.
The output was an 8" single wall that was 24' tall to the A-Frame
2x tung-n-gruve ceiling then 6" closed foam and sheeting and shingles.

The fire would heat the whole house because the input vent to the
central fan/heater was at the roof area above the stove. Heat the
great room and turn on the fan for a while - dump the hot on the top.
Mix the room a bit and the whole house. Then off with the fan.

The young couple that bought it and moved in, installed air
conditioning, and a new boiler heater. dumped the good stove. I'd
love to have it in the shop!

Martin

On 9/10/2015 8:02 AM, Leon wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>>> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
>>> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
>>
>> Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true Leon. It
>> will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning wood for too many
>> years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn green wood. I guess it
>> depends on your definition of the word "burns".
>>
> Well I only burned our fireplace in our other home for 30 years. It burns
> and is gone by morning. FWIW I burned in a fireplace and not a stove.
> Perhaps the limited air flow of a stove hampers the burn.
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
>>> firewood. It would change shape quickly.
>>> I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
>>> that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.
>>
>> I agree with what you say and I tried to state that in my original thoughts,
>> but I still wonder about the whole notion of 1 year of drying time per inch
>> of wood.
>>
>>

On 9/9/2015 4:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular
>>>> lumber the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1
>>>> year per inch of thickness.
>>>
>>> This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same
>>> thing stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting
>>> firewood - admitedly
>>
>>> So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning
>>> wood and what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that
>>> great. If
>>
>> The moisture content sufficient to burn and the moisture content
>> required for radial stability are quite different, particularly when
>> the fire itself is drying the wood.
>
> Not true Scott. When the moisture content of wood is high, you do not get a
> fire. Try it. You will see a piece of wood that does not get going, and
> that almost extinguishes itself with its own moisture. I submit that your
> comment is not accurate at all. Though I may be wrong, your comment is just
> too generic at this point.

Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that leaks
bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.


>
> So - think about it this way Scott - if wood can go from fresh cut to
> burnable in the space of 3 months, at dimensions 4 or 5 times that of
> dimensional lumber, then does it seem logical that a piece of dimensional
> lumber really requires 1 year per inch to dry?
>
You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
firewood. It would change shape quickly.
I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.

There is the crack and the inlay grove I cut to receive a piece of
walnut to fill the void.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/21270913552/in/dateposted-public/

The fix

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/21093590398/in/dateposted-public/

I drove a wood stove for 17 years in the mountains.
We used various woods - some off the property but mostly from
the wood man.

Every now and then we would get some wood that was a bit green
and yes it would boil out the water dry out twist and pop (it was
Madrone naturally) and burn.

Water logged wood - on the muddy bottom (I use Poly pallets for my wood
stacks here, Had a nice Redwood crib I built with my brother there)
would take to much to heat to dry out and might cinder. But if one
had a good roaring fire green wood burns after a while. You don't want
a load of green wood, the fire might never get started. I was near that
and used 3 fire starting sticks to heat the unit hot enough to start a
fire. Ugly. It was after 2 weeks of constant pouring my path to the
wood bin was jelly and my on-porch rick was just consumed. I found some
wood on the lower deck that was destined to the wood lathe but got the
fire instead.

Martin

On 9/9/2015 5:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
>> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
>
> Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true Leon. It
> will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning wood for too many
> years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn green wood. I guess it
> depends on your definition of the word "burns".
>
>
>>
>> You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
>> firewood. It would change shape quickly.
>> I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
>> that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.
>
> I agree with what you say and I tried to state that in my original thoughts,
> but I still wonder about the whole notion of 1 year of drying time per inch
> of wood.
>
>
>

On 9/9/2015 5:52 AM, Meanie wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 11:24 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>>>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
>>>> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
>>>> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
>>>> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for
>>>> the
>>>> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
>>>> need wooden handles to fit.
>>>>
>>>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I
>>>> realized
>>>> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I
>>>> shaped
>>>> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
>>>> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less
>>>> than
>>>> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
>>>> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
>>>> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't
>>>> any
>>>> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
>>>> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
>>>> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
>>>> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>>> of thickness.
>>>
>>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size and
>>> length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry for a
>>> few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will surely
>>> change shape as they dry.
>>>
>>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change shape
>>> and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green piece to
>>> rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so before turning
>>> to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>>
>>>
>> One of the easiest ways to try wood that's been turned is to stick it in
>> a box of saw dust, or shavings. It draws it out quicker than air drying
>> and it doesn't stress it like other methods.
>>
>>
>>
>
> The same shavings which came off the turned piece?
No, dry shavings. They wick the moisture away nicely. Or so I have read
dozens of times.

--
Jeff

I've put my wet bowls with more diameter to work on inside
and out - rough turned - into a sealed paper sack. Wait a month
and put it on the lathe to complete. The paper leaks moisture
slowly. Keep out of the sun - don't cook it.

I have also microwaved fine finished bowls on very low power then
when plasticized I bend or distort the bowl shapes.

Martin

On 9/8/2015 5:27 PM, Meanie wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 6:02 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>>> of thickness.
>>>
>>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
>>> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry
>>> for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
>>> surely change shape as they dry.
>>>
>>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
>>> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
>>> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
>>> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>>
>>
>> Would coating the freshly turned pieces with Anchor Seal or similar help
>> prevent checks as the wood dries?
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>
> You took my thought right out of my head. I await the answer.

On 9/10/2015 1:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:

>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike- [email protected]
>
> The 1 year of drying for 1 inch of thickness concept applies to
> moisture coming out of the face grain of wood. Not the end grain.
> So it is possible a 2 inch thick piece of wood might take 2 years of
> drying to get down to 8% moisture content if the end grain was sealed
> with paint or tar or wax. All of the drying occurs through the
> non-porous face grain. Very slowly. And hopefully this slow loss of
> moisture will prevent cracks in the wood.
>
> Your story of firewood drying quickly is about the wood drying
> through the end grain. Since you do not coat the firewood end grain
> when it is drying. None of the moisture loss occurs through the
> sides of the logs waiting to be burned. All the moisture evaporates
> through the end grain. And of course your firewood is not as dry as
> furniture wood. It might be 15-20-25% moisture content. More than
> dry enough to burn nicely. While furniture wood is around 8%
> moisture content. And I suspect the last few percentage of drying
> takes longer than the first few percentage. Drying of wood is not
> linear. It takes much, much longer to go from 15% to 10% than it
> does to go from 35% to 30%.
>

And just to add to moisture content of firewood vs. wood for building, I
have tons of wood scraps and a few years back I had so much that I
simply use that instead of firewood to burn in my fire place one
evening. I always used scraps to get the fire started but never only
burned scrap hardwoods in place of firewood.
I though I was going to burn the house down. It burned HOT and FAST.
I was terribly thankful that I had ceramic tile floors.

On 9/10/2015 8:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>>>> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of
>>>> the fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
>>>
>>> Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true
>>> Leon. It will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning
>>> wood for too many years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn
>>> green wood. I guess it depends on your definition of the word
>>> "burns".
>>>
>> Well I only burned our fireplace in our other home for 30 years. It
>> burns and is gone by morning. FWIW I burned in a fireplace and not a
>> stove. Perhaps the limited air flow of a stove hampers the burn.
>>
>
> Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
> have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
> on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
> common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
> the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
> there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
> behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
> Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
> not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
> it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
> generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
> wood in February.
>

Down here we generally burn oak and hickory for heat, I clueless how
green it is as I have it delivered. But it burns. Mesquite for cooking.
If my wood has been in the rain I'll put it in front of the fireplace to
dry faster.

On 9/10/2015 8:06 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Split firewood is shorter and typically has numerous splits. While
>> the majority of the drying is through the ends, splits can
>> effectively make parts of the firewood thinner in spots. But shorter
>> pieces is the main difference. Lumber is seldom cut shorter than
>> eight feet for drying. It takes much longer for the moisture to
>> reach the ends of the wood than 18-24 inch firewood.
>
> Well - if wood primarilly sheds its moisture through the ends, then that
> would indeed make sense.
>


Stick a green log in the fire place and see where the moisture comes
out. Oh wait, we have already been there. LOL.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Leon wrote:
>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>> of thickness.
>
>This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same thing
>stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting firewood - admitedly

>So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning wood and
>what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that great. If

The moisture content sufficient to burn and the moisture content
required for radial stability are quite different, particularly when
the fire itself is drying the wood.

On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
> need wooden handles to fit.
>
> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>
> Thanks


Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
of thickness.

You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size and
length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry for a
few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will surely
change shape as they dry.

Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change shape
and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green piece to
rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so before turning
to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 5:21:51 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 9/9/2015 4:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> > Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>> Leon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular
> >>>> lumber the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1
> >>>> year per inch of thickness.
> >>>
> >>> This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same
> >>> thing stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting
> >>> firewood - admitedly
> >>
> >>> So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning
> >>> wood and what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that
> >>> great. If
> >>
> >> The moisture content sufficient to burn and the moisture content
> >> required for radial stability are quite different, particularly when
> >> the fire itself is drying the wood.
> >
> > Not true Scott. When the moisture content of wood is high, you do not get a
> > fire. Try it. You will see a piece of wood that does not get going, and
> > that almost extinguishes itself with its own moisture. I submit that your
> > comment is not accurate at all. Though I may be wrong, your comment is just
> > too generic at this point.
>
> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that leaks
> bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.

Yes, green will burn, e.g., forest fires.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:17:48 AM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, ... it does depend a lot=
=20
> on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most=
=20
> common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn=
it=20
> the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know=
,=20
> there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which=
=20
> behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry.=20

There's some old poesy on the subject that seems apropos here:

Birch and Fir logs burn too fast=E2=80=A8
Blaze up bright and do not last=E2=80=A8
It is by the Cornish said=E2=80=A8
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread=E2=80=A8
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould=E2=80=A8
Even the very flames are cold
=E2=80=A8But ash green or ash brown
=E2=80=A8Is fit for a Queen with a golden crown

On 9/8/2015 6:02 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>> of thickness.
>>
>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
>> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry
>> for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
>> surely change shape as they dry.
>>
>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
>> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
>> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
>> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>
>
> Would coating the freshly turned pieces with Anchor Seal or similar help
> prevent checks as the wood dries?
>
> Puckdropper
>

You took my thought right out of my head. I await the answer.

On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
>> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
>> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
>> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
>> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
>> need wooden handles to fit.
>>
>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
>> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
>> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
>> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
>> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
>> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
>> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
>> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
>> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
>> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
>> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
> of thickness.
>
> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size and
> length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry for a
> few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will surely
> change shape as they dry.
>
> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change shape
> and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green piece to
> rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so before turning
> to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>
>
Holy crap! A year? I think I will measure this piece now then measure
later to see the difference. The branch was about 2" dia and turned to
1.5" at it's widest point. That was the final measurement...lol. Glad
I'm experimenting. I'll do the others larger.

Thanks

On 9/8/2015 6:23 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> As a relatively new turner myself, I offer two pieces of advice:
>
> 1. Visit the turners' forum at Sawmill Creek. Lots of experienced turners willing to answer fundamental questions.
>
> 2. See if there is an AAW chapter in your community. (That's American Association of Woodturners.) Some chapters have mentoring programs aimed at helping beginners navigate what can be a steep learning curve.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Larry
>

Thank you and yes, there is a group I met a the local woodworking show
last year. Unfortunately, I went to two meets and nobody showed. They
meet once a month and after the second no show, I gave up. Perhaps I'll
try another time when winter comes.

On 9/8/2015 11:24 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled with
>>> small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide cutters
>>> which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a diamond shape
>>> and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have one holder for the
>>> other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of square SS stock and now
>>> need wooden handles to fit.
>>>
>>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
>>> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
>>> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
>>> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
>>> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
>>> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
>>> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
>>> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
>>> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
>>> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
>>> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
>> of thickness.
>>
>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size and
>> length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length, dry for a
>> few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will surely
>> change shape as they dry.
>>
>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change shape
>> and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green piece to
>> rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so before turning
>> to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>
>>
> One of the easiest ways to try wood that's been turned is to stick it in
> a box of saw dust, or shavings. It draws it out quicker than air drying
> and it doesn't stress it like other methods.
>
>
>

The same shavings which came off the turned piece?

woodchucker wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 5:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/8/2015 3:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>>> I'm still in the beginning stages of wood turning but have dabbled
>>> with small items which I've been happy with. I purchased 5 carbide
>>> cutters which came with two metal holders, though one cutter is a
>>> diamond shape and has it's own designated holder. Therefore, I have
>>> one holder for the other 4 cutters. Anyway, I made holders out of
>>> square SS stock and now need wooden handles to fit.
>>>
>>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I
>>> realized the size of some of the branches would be great for my
>>> handles. I shaped one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned"
>>> out (pun intended). The question I have is about the freshness of
>>> the wood. It was less than 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut
>>> a piece for the handle. Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to
>>> turn. I've heard about letting wood sit to dry out, then finish.
>>> This is the part I haven't any knowledge on. What length of time is
>>> required to dry out? Is the main reason to dry for finishes or
>>> easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it being for easier turning.
>>> That bark and shavings came off like butter. Overall, how do I
>>> handle turning fresh stock? Thanks
>>
>>
>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
>> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per
>> inch of thickness.
>>
>> You probably will not have to wait that long, given the smaller size
>> and length, but I would let the piece, cut to approximate length,
>> dry for a few to several months "before" turning to final size. They will
>> surely change shape as they dry.
>>
>> Typically green wood is extremely easy to turn but it will change
>> shape and maybe crack or twist. Many bowl turners will turn a green
>> piece to rough shape and then let the piece dry for a year or so
>> before turning to final shape. This speeds up the drying process.
>>
>>
> One of the easiest ways to try wood that's been turned is to stick it
> in a box of saw dust, or shavings. It draws it out quicker than air
> drying and it doesn't stress it like other methods.

Would alcohol work? It has great affinity for water; if one were to immerse
the piece in alcohol for a while and then remove it, would the alcohol have
mixed with the wood's water leaving it drier?

Leon wrote:

> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular lumber
> the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1 year per inch
> of thickness.

This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same thing
stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting firewood - admitedly
a somewhat different thing. That said, I can cut a tree in August or
September, and be burning that tree in December or January - very well.
BTW - I'm talking about burning Maple, Beech and Cherry. Green trees show
that they are green in the wood stove, by the amount of vapor that they put
off while trying to burn. A decently dried piece of hardwood will burn and
put off heat.

Now think about that - these are pieces of wood that are perhaps in the
neighborhood of 4 or 5 inches in diameter (if they were really round
pieces), so they should take 4 or 5 years to dry by this age old adage.
But - they do not.

So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning wood and
what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that great. If
firewood can cure to high quality burning within 2 or 3 or 4 months (while
split at much larger sizes), then it just does not make sense to me that
dimensional lumber requires these conventional thinking drying times.

Yes - I understand the concept of wood movement and the way it is spoken of,
but I really have to question just how real that stuff actually is. It has
often occured to me that even the best, most properly dried piece of wood is
subject to absorbing moisture just by sitting in the garage, so it seems
some of this is over exagerated stuff. But - that's not my argument, it's
just the things I think about when people talk about all this stuff.
Mostly - conversation at this point.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Narrow pieces will not take as long to dry out but for regular
>>> lumber the general time frame for natural air drying is about 1
>>> year per inch of thickness.
>>
>> This makes a good take off point Leon. I've also heard the same
>> thing stated, but then I look at what I experience in cutting
>> firewood - admitedly
>
>> So - there is perhaps some difference in what makes good burning
>> wood and what makes good lumber, but the difference cannot be that
>> great. If
>
> The moisture content sufficient to burn and the moisture content
> required for radial stability are quite different, particularly when
> the fire itself is drying the wood.

Not true Scott. When the moisture content of wood is high, you do not get a
fire. Try it. You will see a piece of wood that does not get going, and
that almost extinguishes itself with its own moisture. I submit that your
comment is not accurate at all. Though I may be wrong, your comment is just
too generic at this point.

So - think about it this way Scott - if wood can go from fresh cut to
burnable in the space of 3 months, at dimensions 4 or 5 times that of
dimensional lumber, then does it seem logical that a piece of dimensional
lumber really requires 1 year per inch to dry?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
> fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.

Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true Leon. It
will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning wood for too many
years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn green wood. I guess it
depends on your definition of the word "burns".


>
> You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
> firewood. It would change shape quickly.
> I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
> that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.

I agree with what you say and I tried to state that in my original thoughts,
but I still wonder about the whole notion of 1 year of drying time per inch
of wood.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

> Good burning wood is typically horrible for building. It has been
> split and cracked and lost its moisture way too quickly. That is why
> it has cracks and splits.
>

Yup - I fully get the difference between the two pieces of wood, but you're
missing my point. If a hunk of maple can dry to 10% (or whatever it may
be...) in chunk form within 3 months or so, then a 1" slab should not take 1
year to dry the same way. It does not matter what the intended use of the
wood is, it's still just a piece of wood. The same kind of wood. If
anything, the 1" piece should dry faster.

I question why you say the split piece has lost its moisture too quickly.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it can only lose its moisture at a
given rate. It can't lose it it any faster than a board of the same wood.
In fact, I would think the board would lose it faster, given the surface
area of the board.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Michael wrote:

>
> Yes, green will burn, e.g., forest fires.

That's a horse of an entirely different color. Much higher tempertures
involved there. Not at all the same as burning firewood in a wood stove.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Split firewood is shorter and typically has numerous splits. While
> the majority of the drying is through the ends, splits can
> effectively make parts of the firewood thinner in spots. But shorter
> pieces is the main difference. Lumber is seldom cut shorter than
> eight feet for drying. It takes much longer for the moisture to
> reach the ends of the wood than 18-24 inch firewood.

Well - if wood primarilly sheds its moisture through the ends, then that
would indeed make sense.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
>>> leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of
>>> the fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.
>>
>> Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true
>> Leon. It will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning
>> wood for too many years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn
>> green wood. I guess it depends on your definition of the word
>> "burns".
>>
> Well I only burned our fireplace in our other home for 30 years. It
> burns and is gone by morning. FWIW I burned in a fireplace and not a
> stove. Perhaps the limited air flow of a stove hampers the burn.
>

Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
wood in February.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:
> On 9/10/2015 8:06 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Split firewood is shorter and typically has numerous splits. While
>>> the majority of the drying is through the ends, splits can
>>> effectively make parts of the firewood thinner in spots. But
>>> shorter pieces is the main difference. Lumber is seldom cut
>>> shorter than eight feet for drying. It takes much longer for the
>>> moisture to reach the ends of the wood than 18-24 inch firewood.
>>
>> Well - if wood primarilly sheds its moisture through the ends, then
>> that would indeed make sense.
>>
>
>
> Stick a green log in the fire place and see where the moisture comes
> out. Oh wait, we have already been there. LOL.

Actually - you can watch the water coming out all across the split. Ask me
how I know this...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Down here we generally burn oak and hickory for heat, I clueless how
> green it is as I have it delivered. But it burns. Mesquite for
> cooking. If my wood has been in the rain I'll put it in front of the
> fireplace to dry faster.

In this part of NY, oak can be common, but not in my immediate area. Almost
all Maple, Beech and Cherry. In the eastern part of the state (and maybe
other parts - I don't know), Hickory can be common. Both are great
firewood, but I just don't have any of it on my property.

I keep about a day's worth of wood in a little craddle beside the stove for
the same reason. I tarp over the wood that is stacked outside, and I have 3
months worth stacked on the front porch at the beginning of each heating
season (not enclosed, but does have a roof over it). For the most part, it
really does not get all that wet once it's stacked. It's surprising though,
how little water is actually absorbed into wood from rain or snow, once it's
seasoned. I've gone through heating seasons without tarping over my outside
wood stacks and to be honest - there's not a lot of difference between the
tarped over wood and the stuff that was not. Mostly just the mess that you
bring into the house if the wood gets a snow build up on it. Not so much in
terms of how it burns.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 09/09/2015 4:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...

> So - think about it this way Scott - if wood can go from fresh cut to
> burnable in the space of 3 months, at dimensions 4 or 5 times that of
> dimensional lumber, then does it seem logical that a piece of dimensional
> lumber really requires 1 year per inch to dry?

I suggest you read some...

<http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=16923&header_id=p>

<http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=14208&header_id=p>

plus if you've not read Hoadley, it's a must...

<http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441910639&sr=8-1&keywords=hoadley+understanding+wood>

--

On 09/10/2015 2:02 PM, Leon wrote:
..

> And just to add to moisture content of firewood vs. wood for building, I
> have tons of wood scraps and a few years back I had so much that I
> simply use that instead of firewood to burn in my fire place one
> evening. I always used scraps to get the fire started but never only
> burned scrap hardwoods in place of firewood.
> I though I was going to burn the house down. It burned HOT and FAST.
> I was terribly thankful that I had ceramic tile floors.

Indeed, although another factor besides the moisture is that scraps
typically have much more surface area per unit volume than the log;
hence there's a far larger fire/flame front.

--

On 9/8/2015 4:41 PM, Meanie wrote:

> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?

When cutting wood blanks for turning, you don't want the pith at all, it
causes lots of problems. This generally makes branches not good unless
they are large enough to square up w/o the pith.

As you discovered, green wood is great to turn, and large bowls are
often turned green because of the large amount of wood removed, it turns
easy green and dries faster than a giant unturned log, but you have to
turn again after it dries, and you fill any checks and get it back into
a round shape(if that's what you want).

Small turnings like tool handles are simple to turn dry, because you are
removing only a small amount of wood, so turners seldom turn tool
handles from green. The main problem is end grain, which wicks moisture
faster than face grain, so it will cause checks in the end grain, so
your handle might check as well as warp. I would seal everything up
with wax or poly and sit back and observe. You will quickly gain some
first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't. A little warping
and checking in a tool handle is probably not the end of the world,
might even be cool.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/10/2015 9:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
> have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
> on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
> common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
> the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
> there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
> behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
> Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
> not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
> it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
> generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
> wood in February.

A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees
in the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I guess to
protect them from freezing, and around February begin pumping the
moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for maple syrup:-)

This greatly effects both drying time for furniture as well as burning.
I once cut a maple in late October, and 3 months later made slats for
a rocking chair seat and the wood was quite dry. It even surprised me.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/10/2015 12:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> I keep about a day's worth of wood in a little craddle beside the stove for
> the same reason. I tarp over the wood that is stacked outside, and I have 3
> months worth stacked on the front porch at the beginning of each heating
> season (not enclosed, but does have a roof over it). For the most part, it
> really does not get all that wet once it's stacked. It's surprising though,
> how little water is actually absorbed into wood from rain or snow, once it's
> seasoned. I've gone through heating seasons without tarping over my outside
> wood stacks and to be honest - there's not a lot of difference between the
> tarped over wood and the stuff that was not. Mostly just the mess that you
> bring into the house if the wood gets a snow build up on it. Not so much in
> terms of how it burns.

Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green or
dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
(after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).

The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:

>
> A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
> more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees in
> the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I
> guess to protect them from freezing, and around February begin
> pumping the moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for
> maple syrup:-)

Well that is certainly true but with Ash in particular, you can cut it down
any time of the year and immediately burn it and get good heat. It's
somewhat unique among the types of trees that grow around here, in that
respect. (I'm in Central NY by the way).


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Jack wrote:

>
> Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green
> or dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
> years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
> dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
> (after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).
>
> The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
> out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
> much.

Absolutely correct.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 9/10/2015 2:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> The 1 year of drying for 1 inch of thickness concept applies to moisture coming out of the face
> grain of wood. Not the end grain. So it is possible a 2 inch thick piece of wood might take
> 2 years of drying to get down to 8% moisture content if the end grain was sealed with paint or tar
> or wax. All of the drying occurs through the non-porous face grain. Very slowly. And hopefully
> this slow loss of moisture will prevent cracks in the wood.

Exactly right.

I used to seal end grain of "firewood" destined for my lathe with
paraffin wax melted into the end grain with an old iron. I was out of
wax, and lost my iron and came up with a neat idea, Masking tape! I
had squared up some maple firewood for future use, and didn't seal the
ends, and it almost immediately began checking.

Next time I stuck wide, blue painters masking tape and stuck it on the
ends of the green blanks. The blanks either didn't check, or had very
minor checks after I guess 6-8 months. So far so good. It's a small
sample, but it's working great.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/11/2015 11:07 AM, G. Ross wrote:

> Good point. I like wood for turning that was felled in December or
> January. Just started turning some wood that was felled in June. Lots
> of it became moldy before it finished drying. Also, having more water
> in it, it tends to warp and crack more while drying.
>
In case you didn't read my previous post, I have been testing out
applying masking tape to the ends of my turning blanks that I cut from
firewood.

For the past 40 years, if I see a nice piece of firewood, I pull it and
cut it up in my shop for turning, making small boxes or cutting boards.
I make it as large as possible, smoothing the faces with the jointer
and planer, and square up the ends, cutting off any checking.

I used to melt wax into the ends with an old iron. Now, I apply the
masking tape to the ends, and toss them into my turning bin. This is
super easy and seems to be working great. The firewood was cut and
split almost a year ago though, but it's not close to dry (for
furniture), and without treating the ends with wax or tape, checked
within few weeks, so this is definitely working.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/11/2015 10:23 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/8/2015 4:41 PM, Meanie wrote:
>
>> I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
>> the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
>> one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
>> The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
>> 24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
>> Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
>> letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
>> knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
>> reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
>> being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
>> Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?
>
> When cutting wood blanks for turning, you don't want the pith at all, it
> causes lots of problems. This generally makes branches not good unless
> they are large enough to square up w/o the pith.
>
> As you discovered, green wood is great to turn, and large bowls are
> often turned green because of the large amount of wood removed, it turns
> easy green and dries faster than a giant unturned log, but you have to
> turn again after it dries, and you fill any checks and get it back into
> a round shape(if that's what you want).
>
> Small turnings like tool handles are simple to turn dry, because you are
> removing only a small amount of wood, so turners seldom turn tool
> handles from green. The main problem is end grain, which wicks moisture
> faster than face grain, so it will cause checks in the end grain, so
> your handle might check as well as warp. I would seal everything up
> with wax or poly and sit back and observe. You will quickly gain some
> first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't. A little warping
> and checking in a tool handle is probably not the end of the world,
> might even be cool.
>

The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.

It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

On 9/11/2015 6:52 PM, Meanie wrote:

> The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
> aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
> reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
> just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
> and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
> middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
> warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
> I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.
>
> It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
> types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
> harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
> good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
> over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
> sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
> into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

Silver Maple is perfect for lathe, chisel and file tool handles. Walnut
is better saved for other things, like cutting boards, small boxes, trim
inlays and that sort of stuff. Not that it wouldn't make good handles,
just it's a little special for a utilitarian handle. I made my daughter
a nice wedding goblet with the captured rings out of a "firewood" black
walnut log. I like mixing maple, cherry and walnut in cutting boards.
Gives them a nice traditional look.

When taping the ends of your blanks, remember it takes about a year per
inch to dry wood, maybe less if cut in the fall, early winter. I have a
box full of wood blanks of all sizes I keep. Some pieces are 40 years
old. I would guess most anyone with a lathe has the same box:-). If
you ever go to a woodworkers store like Rockler and price little turning
blocks, you will instantly know why a nice looking hunk of firewood is
worth saving.

Turning bowls, lamps, is most fun with green wood, the greener the
better. Lot's of techniques posted on here for drying. I used to melt
paraffin wax all over the rough turning and that worked. I'd try the
paper bag thing I think. If you get checks, even big ones, you can mix
epoxy and saw dust, or a variety of things and sometimes get result
better than if they weren't there.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/12/2015 9:34 AM, Michael wrote:

> You can also build one of these bad boys. Your drying time will be cut down from months to weeks. That's my plan for the fall and I'm sticking to it.
>
> http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WoodDrying/wood_kiln.htm

Yes, looked like a nice design. I looked at the pdf here:

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/420/420-030/420-030_pdf.pdf

Looks like it would work well and be a simple build.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 09/09/2015 6:15 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> I've put my wet bowls with more diameter to work on inside
> and out - rough turned - into a sealed paper sack. Wait a month
> and put it on the lathe to complete. The paper leaks moisture
> slowly. Keep out of the sun - don't cook it.
>
I do that but also fill the bag with the turning shavings. I have also
sealed the outside with end sealer on occasion.
Graham

On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 20:34:35 -0400, "G. Ross" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Good burning wood is typically horrible for building. It has been
>>> split and cracked and lost its moisture way too quickly. That is why
>>> it has cracks and splits.
>>>
>>
>> Yup - I fully get the difference between the two pieces of wood, but you're
>> missing my point. If a hunk of maple can dry to 10% (or whatever it may
>> be...) in chunk form within 3 months or so, then a 1" slab should not take 1
>> year to dry the same way. It does not matter what the intended use of the
>> wood is, it's still just a piece of wood. The same kind of wood. If
>> anything, the 1" piece should dry faster.
>>
>> I question why you say the split piece has lost its moisture too quickly.
>> Maybe I'm missing something here, but it can only lose its moisture at a
>> given rate. It can't lose it it any faster than a board of the same wood.
>> In fact, I would think the board would lose it faster, given the surface
>> area of the
>>
>Perhaps in shorter pieces the endgrain is closer to the center than
>long boards, and much of the water is lost though the endgrain. That
>is the logic behind sealing the end grain to retard drying.


I think you've squarely hit the proverbial nail. One wants to dry
firewood as quickly as possible. OTOH, the idea behind drying lumber
is to dry it evenly. That means slowing down the process, as you
suggest.