I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
. -----------------
. |
. ----------- |
. | |
. | -------------
. |
. -----------------
I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
for few days.
Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
half sticking to the wall.
When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
like this?
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> writes:
>Idea number 5.
>I found these wire supports on WW hardware (actually from catalog, then
>found them online).
>http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/ProductID/SYX%205207
>http://www.wwhardware.com/media/products/apcharts/syx5207_5209dia.gif
>So here is the idea.
>For each U shaped shelf unit:
>1. Create a long mortise in both the top and bottom shelf along most of
>the edge that faces the wall. Lets say 5/8 wide and 1" deep.
<deleted>
>3. Create two wall cleats 5/8" wide by 1" by the lenght of the mortise
>- Create countersinked holes at 16" centers for screwing it to the
>wall
>- Create two sets of holes for two wire supports
>All you need to do is screw two of these cleats to the wall, level with
>the same center to cenetr as the centerlines of the shelves. Which you
>could layout by holding the shelf up to the wall and scribing
<deletec>
>You could put some set screws up into the cleats if you were worried
>about it.
>wadayathinkathis?
I'm not sure I get the point of the wires in this setup. Isn't this
basically equivalent to idea (4) in the previous post? Do the wires
do anything?
I got some shelves from Ikea that mounted invisibly. The way they did
it was to have a metal strip with rods coming out of it that you
attached to the wall. So the metal strip is screwed to the wall, and
the rods extend into the shelf. Back of the shelf has some holes to
accomodate the rods. There was also a screw that came up from the
bottom of the shelf into the rod to prevent it from slipping off.
Perhaps you could fashion something similar.
All these ideas seem to not provide enough support strength in order to
place anything on the shelf (I think a french cleat would break off and
pocket screws would rip through the shelf or wall).
I would drill holes completely through the shelf into the wall that
some kind of rod/bolt would go into, then either plug the holes, or to
better hide them, place a small strip of wood or laminate over the
length of shelf.
Shawn
[email protected] wrote:
> I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
> encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
> pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
> sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>
> . -----------------
> . |
> . ----------- |
> . | |
> . | -------------
> . |
> . -----------------
>
> I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
> http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available
only
> for few days.
>
> Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
> design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
> material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be
five
> feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is
visible
> to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
> half sticking to the wall.
>
> When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple
enough..."
> But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it
on
> the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
> wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on
the
> back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the
wall,
> and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the
keyhole.
> Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
> in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to
be
> positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
> those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
> like this?
Idea number 5.
I found these wire supports on WW hardware (actually from catalog, then
found them online).
http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/ProductID/SYX%205207
http://www.wwhardware.com/media/products/apcharts/syx5207_5209dia.gif
So here is the idea.
For each U shaped shelf unit:
1. Create a long mortise in both the top and bottom shelf along most of
the edge that faces the wall. Lets say 5/8 wide and 1" deep.
2. Run a 1/8" kerf in the bottom of the mortise, the entire length,
deep enough for the wire
3. Create two wall cleats 5/8" wide by 1" by the lenght of the mortise
- Create countersinked holes at 16" centers for screwing it to the
wall
- Create two sets of holes for two wire supports
All you need to do is screw two of these cleats to the wall, level with
the same center to cenetr as the centerlines of the shelves. Which you
could layout by holding the shelf up to the wall and scribing
One of the nice aspects of this design is the wires fit into a long
kerf so exact vertical alignment is not that critical.
You could put some set screws up into the cleats if you were worried
about it.
wadayathinkathis?
If it's a threaded rod, it wouldn't have a chance of falling off and I
don't think alignment would be too much of a problem.
Shawn
Adrian Mariano wrote:
> "Ulfius" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>All these ideas seem to not provide enough support strength in order to
>>place anything on the shelf (I think a french cleat would break off and
>>pocket screws would rip through the shelf or wall).
>
>
>>I would drill holes completely through the shelf into the wall that
>>some kind of rod/bolt would go into, then either plug the holes, or to
>>better hide them, place a small strip of wood or laminate over the
>>length of shelf.
>
>
> So it seems like so far we've got:
>
> (1) metal rods from shelf into the studs
> (2) pocket screws
> (3) French cleat
> (4) torsion box
>
> It seems like (1) might work but would be hard to align properly and
> it's not immediately obvious how you keep the shelf from falling off
> the metal bars if you don't glue it or something.
>
> I'm not sure if I think (2) would work or not. Seems like with enough
> screws, correctly positioned, it might be strong enough.
>
> The French cleat sounds elegant. Is it string enough for this
> application? Based on my web surfing the usual use of the French
> cleat is to hang a cabinet where everything is bigger. In this case
> the forces would be borne by 1/4" little sections. Would they break
> off as suggested above? Would the shelf be easily knocked off?
> (Maybe a prototype is needed.)
>
> I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies here.
> If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
> performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
> the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
> wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
> screws. So it looks like this:
>
> |
> |----x-------------------
> | x
> |----x----
> | x |
> | x |
> |----x----
> | v
> |-----------------------
>
>
> where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
> shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
> scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?).
>
> Any more thoughts on this?
>
i keep seeing reviews and raves about this
http://www.naturalisproducts.com and
http://www.organiconline.com.sg . many people are discussing in beauty
forums and magazines have positive reviews on this . but this thing
ain't new, its
been around for many years! anyone tried can feedback to me on exactly
how good it is?
----------------------------------------
can anyone help me please, am looking for the local distributor or any
shop selling the naturalis range of skin and body care products, from
this company http://www.naturalisproducts.com . looking for this
urgently. for those who have not come across it, its some foodbased
anti-aging products. i googled for this and received result
showing its available at http://www.organiconline.com.sg. i need this
urgently but shipping from singapore will take some time, if anyone is
distributing this please contact me at [email protected]
urgently. i have a group of us looking to buy this. thanks!
OK, a bed hanger just came to mind and I whipped up this as an
illustration. It would use toggle bolts and the holes would be from the
underside and filled once hanged.
http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/shawnc/shelf_hanger.htm
Shawn
Adrian Mariano wrote:
> Shawn <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>If it's a threaded rod, it wouldn't have a chance of falling off and I
>>don't think alignment would be too much of a problem.
>
>
> If it's threaded rod then what would you do? Mount threaded sockets
> in the wall, screw in the threaded rod and then...hammer the shelf
> onto the rods that stick out of the wall? I suppose if the rods are
> long then falling off shouldn't be a big issue unless someone grabs
> the shelf.
>
Shawn <[email protected]> writes:
>If it's a threaded rod, it wouldn't have a chance of falling off and I
>don't think alignment would be too much of a problem.
If it's threaded rod then what would you do? Mount threaded sockets
in the wall, screw in the threaded rod and then...hammer the shelf
onto the rods that stick out of the wall? I suppose if the rods are
long then falling off shouldn't be a big issue unless someone grabs
the shelf.
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:16:00 GMT, Mark Jerde
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Thomas Bunetta wrote:
>> This is also called a French cleat.
>
> In the USA, shouldn't those be "Freedom Cleats"? <g>
>
Reminds me, I need to buy some Freedom ti . .er . .never mind.
"damian penney" <[email protected]> writes:
>You could always glue the French cleat together, that would be solid as
>a rock.
Not so great if I move and want to take the shelf with me, though.
[email protected] wrote:
> Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
> design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
> those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
> like this?
I'm thinking metal rods. Stronger than keyholes. Bore holes for just shy
of the full depth of the shelf. Insert rods about half the thickness of
the wood as close to the bottom edge as you can manage. That way you get
as much wood on top of the rod as you can, but nothing shows. Bore holes
into the studs. Trim to fit.
I've never done this, but that's the first idea that pops into my head for
how I'd do it. Kind of off the wall. Sagging might be a problem. I'd
want to use some pretty stiff rods, and use wood thick enough to
accommodate it. But the holes in the studs would have to be perfectly
centered to make that fly. My stud finder isn't that good.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
This is also called a French cleat.
Tom
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 29 Dec 2004 08:54:16 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
>>encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
>>pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
>>sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>>
>>. -----------------
>>. |
>>. ----------- |
>>. | |
>>. | -------------
>>. |
>>. -----------------
>>
>>I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
>>http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
>>for few days.
>>
>>Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
>>design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
>>material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
>>feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
>>to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
>>half sticking to the wall.
>>
>>When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
>>But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
>>the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
>>wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
>>back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
>>and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
>>Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
>>in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
>>positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
>>those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
>>like this?
>
>
> Use a dovetail bit or your tablesaw to cut an angled lip on the back
> side of your shelf, and then make a small strip with a complementary
> angle to mount onto the wall. When you set the shelf on the strip
> that is mounted up, the angled bit on the shelf should slide onto the
> mounting strip, and hold the thing in place.
>
> ......................................................................
> ___ |
> shelf | \ |
> ..........................................................| \_|
>
> |----\
> Mounting bracket -> | \_
> |_____|
>
> Sorry about the crappy ASCII, but that's the best I can do with it!
> With some careful fitting, you should be able to get an almost
> seamless mount that doesn't involve plugging holes or trying to hide
> screws by some other method. As a bonus, if you use a real long
> mounting board, the weight will be distributed much more evenly than
> using another method.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:jsXAd.19998$_62.10261@trnddc01...
> "damian penney" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>> Even simpler and more sturdy is a torsion box. A few months back one
of the
> magazines had an 'S' shaped series of shelves made using torsion boxes.
The
> 'wall' member of the box is mounted, then the remainder of the box is
> attached to it with screws topa and bottom.
I wouldn't argue stronger, but simpler???
Split a board lengthwise with a 45 degree cut, fasten one side to the wall
and the other to the work (both level) and you're done.
Tom
=20
"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:IYpCd.25497$2X6.23612@trnddc07...
| [email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
|=20
| > I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies =
here.
| > If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
| > performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
| > the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
| > wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
| > screws. So it looks like this:
| >=20
| >|
| >|----x-------------------
| >| x
| >|----x----
| >| x |
| >| x |
| >|----x----
| >| v
| >|-----------------------
| >=20
| >=20
| > where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
| > shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
| > scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?). =20
| >=20
| > Any more thoughts on this? =20
| >=20
| >=20
|=20
| I think the shelf with groove would be more prone to sag than the =
torsion=20
| box. Choice depends on how thin you want the shelf. A few years ago I =
saw=20
| a photo in one of the magazines of Ian Kirby sitting on a wall hung=20
| torsion box. I don't think that would be doable with any of the other=20
| schemes.
As NO-SAG spans are concerned, the following is true for a book shelf:
3/4" plywood -- 36"
3/4" particleboard -- 28"
3/4" Oak board -- 48"
1/2" acrylic -- 22"
3/8" glass -- 18"
These are the maximum spans for a load of 25 lbs. and no additional =
support.
A torsion-box of 1 1/2" X 12" X 48" will have 2/3 less deflection under =
load than a similar length Oak board at about 1/3 the cost.
The torsion box can be constructed from:
1/8" or 1/4" skins top and bottom
1/8" or 1/4" thick logitudinal core strips spaced 3" apart
1/8" or 1/4" thick spacers set every 6" apart.
Given 1/4" skins, the front skin would be 1 1/2" wide and the back =
"skin" would be 1" wide and 1" thick and 47 1/2 " long. This would =
allow the back "skin" to be screwed to the wall and the torsion box to =
be screwed/glued to the cleat.
--=20
PDQ
--
"Ulfius" <[email protected]> writes:
>All these ideas seem to not provide enough support strength in order to
>place anything on the shelf (I think a french cleat would break off and
>pocket screws would rip through the shelf or wall).
>I would drill holes completely through the shelf into the wall that
>some kind of rod/bolt would go into, then either plug the holes, or to
>better hide them, place a small strip of wood or laminate over the
>length of shelf.
So it seems like so far we've got:
(1) metal rods from shelf into the studs
(2) pocket screws
(3) French cleat
(4) torsion box
It seems like (1) might work but would be hard to align properly and
it's not immediately obvious how you keep the shelf from falling off
the metal bars if you don't glue it or something.
I'm not sure if I think (2) would work or not. Seems like with enough
screws, correctly positioned, it might be strong enough.
The French cleat sounds elegant. Is it string enough for this
application? Based on my web surfing the usual use of the French
cleat is to hang a cabinet where everything is bigger. In this case
the forces would be borne by 1/4" little sections. Would they break
off as suggested above? Would the shelf be easily knocked off?
(Maybe a prototype is needed.)
I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies here.
If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
screws. So it looks like this:
|
|----x-------------------
| x
|----x----
| x |
| x |
|----x----
| v
|-----------------------
where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?).
Any more thoughts on this?
[email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies here.
> If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
> performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
> the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
> wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
> screws. So it looks like this:
>
>|
>|----x-------------------
>| x
>|----x----
>| x |
>| x |
>|----x----
>| v
>|-----------------------
>
>
> where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
> shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
> scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?).
>
> Any more thoughts on this?
>
>
I think the shelf with groove would be more prone to sag than the torsion
box. Choice depends on how thin you want the shelf. A few years ago I saw
a photo in one of the magazines of Ian Kirby sitting on a wall hung
torsion box. I don't think that would be doable with any of the other
schemes.
Prometheus <[email protected]> writes:
>>The French cleat sounds elegant. Is it string enough for this
>>application? Based on my web surfing the usual use of the French
>>cleat is to hang a cabinet where everything is bigger. In this case
>>the forces would be borne by 1/4" little sections. Would they break
>>off as suggested above? Would the shelf be easily knocked off?
>>(Maybe a prototype is needed.)
>1/4" sections? The cleat should be strong enough for the setup the OP
>proposed, since it distributes the weight along the entire back side
>of the shelf. For extra strength, you could make two cleats, and
>mount them on top and bottom. It shouldn't come out without a good
>amount of upward pressure.
How big do you think these cleats need to be? I have more confidence
in the cleat for a 1.5" thick shelf than a 3/4" thick shelf.
When you say two cleats are you thinking that it would slide on from
the side, kind of like a sliding dovetail?
"PDQ" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:IYpCd.25497$2X6.23612@trnddc07...
>| [email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
>|
>| > I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies here.
>| > If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
>| > performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
>| > the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
>| > wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
>| > screws. So it looks like this:
>| >
>| >|
>| >|----x-------------------
>| >| x
>| >|----x----
>| >| x |
>| >| x |
>| >|----x----
>| >| v
>| >|-----------------------
>| >
>| >
>| > where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
>| > shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
>| > scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?).
>| >
>| > Any more thoughts on this?
>| >
>| >
>|
>| I think the shelf with groove would be more prone to sag than the torsion
>| box. Choice depends on how thin you want the shelf. A few years ago I saw
>| a photo in one of the magazines of Ian Kirby sitting on a wall hung
>| torsion box. I don't think that would be doable with any of the other
>| schemes.
>As NO-SAG spans are concerned, the following is true for a book shelf:
>3/4" plywood -- 36"
>3/4" particleboard -- 28"
>3/4" Oak board -- 48"
>1/2" acrylic -- 22"
>3/8" glass -- 18"
>These are the maximum spans for a load of 25 lbs. and no additional support.
Sag shouldn't be a significant issue with the shelf in question. It's
going to be supported presumably at each stud, so the span is at
worst 24".
>A torsion-box of 1 1/2" X 12" X 48" will have 2/3 less deflection
>under load than a similar length Oak board at about 1/3 the cost.
Are you saying that a 1.5" thick torsion box would have 2/3 less
deflection than a similar length and THICKNESS oak board? (If so, why
is this true? I would expect it to be somewhat weaker than a solid
piece of the same dimensions.) An inch and a half is too thick for
this shelf. It would look ungainly. As I recall, deflection is
inversely proportional to the cube of the thickness of the beam, so
thickness is an important variable. A 1.5 inch thick oak board would
have 1/8 the deflection (7/8 less) than a 3/4 inch thick board.
>The torsion box can be constructed from:
>1/8" or 1/4" skins top and bottom
>1/8" or 1/4" thick logitudinal core strips spaced 3" apart
>1/8" or 1/4" thick spacers set every 6" apart.
>Given 1/4" skins, the front skin would be 1 1/2" wide and the back
>"skin" would be 1" wide and 1" thick and 47 1/2 " long. This would
>allow the back "skin" to be screwed to the wall and the torsion box
>to be screwed/glued to the cleat.
But to make the design the right size (about 3/4 inch thick) I'd
presumably have to use 1/8" skins and the back piece would be 1/2 inch
thick. How is this functionally any different than routing a 1/2 inch
groove in the back of a solid piece of wood and using a cleat on the
wall? How is the torsion box aspect of the shelf actually related to
the hanging of it? It would seem to me that you can use this hanging
scheme with or without a torsion box.
This same shelf design was in one of the woodworking mags a month or so
back. I think I still have it at home. The shelves were designed in a
torsion box style. There was a piece of wood ( IIRC - 1" X 2" ) that fit
into an opening lengthwise into the upper and lower part of the U shaped
shelf unit. Screws were run into the (1" X 2" ) piece of wood form the top
of the upper section and from the bottom of the lower section, then plugged
to finish hiding them. I'm attempting to use ascii to show how a single
flat shelf would mount.
----------------------------------------------------
: ------------------------------------------------ :
: ------------------------------------------------ :
-----------------------------------------------------
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
> encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
> pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
> sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>
> . -----------------
> . |
> . ----------- |
> . | |
> . | -------------
> . |
> . -----------------
>
> I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
> http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
> for few days.
>
> Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
> design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
> material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
> feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
> to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
> half sticking to the wall.
>
> When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
> But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
> the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
> wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
> back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
> and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
> Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
> in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
> positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
> those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
> like this?
>
On 4 Jan 2005 11:54:33 -0800, "damian penney" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>You could always glue the French cleat together, that would be solid as
>a rock.
It's plenty solid without glue. I think some folks have got the wrong
idea about the cleat I was describing- It's not a matter of having
several small cleats to hold up the shelf, but a single long cleat
that runs the entire length of the shelf. Friction and gravity will
hold that thing as solid as a rock- it's basically a torsion box
without screws.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 03:53:04 GMT, [email protected] (Adrian
Mariano) wrote:
>"Ulfius" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>All these ideas seem to not provide enough support strength in order to
>>place anything on the shelf (I think a french cleat would break off and
>>pocket screws would rip through the shelf or wall).
>
>>I would drill holes completely through the shelf into the wall that
>>some kind of rod/bolt would go into, then either plug the holes, or to
>>better hide them, place a small strip of wood or laminate over the
>>length of shelf.
>
>So it seems like so far we've got:
>
>(1) metal rods from shelf into the studs
>(2) pocket screws
>(3) French cleat
>(4) torsion box
>
>It seems like (1) might work but would be hard to align properly and
>it's not immediately obvious how you keep the shelf from falling off
>the metal bars if you don't glue it or something.
That, and metal bars are not as strong as you may think when they're
sticking straight out of something. The entire shelf becomes a lever
that puts a load on that rod where it's sticking out of the wall.
FWIW, I can bend a 16" x .5" dia. rod of 1018 (weldable) steel over my
knee without much trouble. I'd worry a bit about using it as a shelf
hanger, unless you're taking about some really tough alloy.
>I'm not sure if I think (2) would work or not. Seems like with enough
>screws, correctly positioned, it might be strong enough.
If they're into studs, or have drywall anchors, it'd probably be fine.
>The French cleat sounds elegant. Is it string enough for this
>application? Based on my web surfing the usual use of the French
>cleat is to hang a cabinet where everything is bigger. In this case
>the forces would be borne by 1/4" little sections. Would they break
>off as suggested above? Would the shelf be easily knocked off?
>(Maybe a prototype is needed.)
1/4" sections? The cleat should be strong enough for the setup the OP
proposed, since it distributes the weight along the entire back side
of the shelf. For extra strength, you could make two cleats, and
mount them on top and bottom. It shouldn't come out without a good
amount of upward pressure.
>I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies here.
>If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
>performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a groove
>the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to the
>wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
>screws. So it looks like this:
>
>|
>|----x-------------------
>| x
>|----x----
>| x |
>| x |
>|----x----
>| v
>|-----------------------
>
>
>where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the screw
>shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal bars
>scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?).
I'd go for the cleat or torsion box. I think you're asking for
trouble with either the bars or the pocket screws. Use the cleat if
you want to avoid having screw heads visible, or use the torsion box
if you don't mind that. Either one should work like a champ.
>Any more thoughts on this?
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
On 29 Dec 2004 08:54:16 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
>encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
>pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
>sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>
>. -----------------
>. |
>. ----------- |
>. | |
>. | -------------
>. |
>. -----------------
>
>I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
>http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
>for few days.
>
>Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
>design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
>material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
>feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
>to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
>half sticking to the wall.
>
>When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
>But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
>the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
>wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
>back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
>and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
>Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
>in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
>positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
>those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
>like this?
Use a dovetail bit or your tablesaw to cut an angled lip on the back
side of your shelf, and then make a small strip with a complementary
angle to mount onto the wall. When you set the shelf on the strip
that is mounted up, the angled bit on the shelf should slide onto the
mounting strip, and hold the thing in place.
......................................................................
___ |
shelf | \ |
..........................................................| \_|
|----\
Mounting bracket -> | \_
|_____|
Sorry about the crappy ASCII, but that's the best I can do with it!
With some careful fitting, you should be able to get an almost
seamless mount that doesn't involve plugging holes or trying to hide
screws by some other method. As a bonus, if you use a real long
mounting board, the weight will be distributed much more evenly than
using another method.
Hope this helps!
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
See American Woodworker Issue #110, November, 2004. Torsion boxes.
[email protected] wrote:
>I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
>encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
>pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
>sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>
>. -----------------
>. |
>. ----------- |
>. | |
>. | -------------
>. |
>. -----------------
>
>I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
>http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
>for few days.
>
>Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
>design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
>material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
>feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
>to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
>half sticking to the wall.
>
>When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
>But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
>the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
>wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
>back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
>and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
>Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
>in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
>positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
>those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
>like this?
[email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
>But to make the design the right size (about 3/4 inch thick) I'd
>presumably have to use 1/8" skins and the back piece would be 1/2 inch
>thick. How is this functionally any different than routing a 1/2 inch
>groove in the back of a solid piece of wood and using a cleat on the
>wall? How is the torsion box aspect of the shelf actually related to
>the hanging of it? It would seem to me that you can use this hanging
>scheme with or without a torsion box.
Your scan (http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg) shows a shelf
that is clearly more than 3/4" thick. I dug out my Instamatic camera
from the basement and measured it at 2.5" high. Scaling from that to
the pictured camera on the shelf, I'd say that the shelf is about 1.5"
thick.
If your application really requires a shelf 3/4" thin, I think you
will need to scale back the depth to 3 or 4 inches. Even the crossed
grain construction of a 1/8" plywood skin on a half inch cleat will
not hold much. Making the shelf out of solid wood will be worse - the
"flanges" will split along the grain.
"damian penney" <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's a great solution, I'd seen French cleats employed for hanging
> cabinets but it would work great here too.
>
>
Even simpler and more sturdy is a torsion box. A few months back one of the
magazines had an 'S' shaped series of shelves made using torsion boxes. The
'wall' member of the box is mounted, then the remainder of the box is
attached to it with screws topa and bottom.
I think i'd experiment with a longer (maybe 3") pocket screws through the
shelf and into the studs. Then plug the pockets. --dave
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was looking through "Design Your Own Furniture" by Jim Stack and I
> encountered a shelf that I thought looked nice. It is made from two
> pieces hung on a wall. Each piece is like the letter "U", turned
> sideways, so the total shelf looked like this (use fixed width font):
>
> . -----------------
> . |
> . ----------- |
> . | |
> . | -------------
> . |
> . -----------------
>
> I have posted a picture scanned from the book for clarification at
> http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg but it will be available only
> for few days.
>
> Close inspection of the picture makes it look like a very simple
> design. Each piece looks to be made of say 5" wide 3/4" thick
> material, mitered together at the corners. Looks like it might be five
> feet long. The look is very clean: no supporting structure is visible
> to hold thing thing to the wall, just three pieces of wood for each
> half sticking to the wall.
>
> When I saw it I thought "I need one of those. Looks simple enough..."
> But after thinking a bit more I realized I don't know how to hang it on
> the wall. I thought of putting screws through it at an angle into the
> wall, which seems ugly but might work. Maybe sideways keyholes on the
> back? But it seems like it would be hard to get it tight to the wall,
> and the weight would be borne by a thin bit of wood around the keyhole.
> Also, if the hardware has to be positioned in the wall to match holes
> in the back of the shelf, it seems like that hardware would have to be
> positioned in the wall with unrealistic accuracy to avoid stressing
> those joints. Anyone have any insight on a good way to hang a shelf
> like this?
>
Larry Kraus <[email protected]> writes:
>[email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
>>But to make the design the right size (about 3/4 inch thick) I'd
>>presumably have to use 1/8" skins and the back piece would be 1/2 inch
>>thick. How is this functionally any different than routing a 1/2 inch
>>groove in the back of a solid piece of wood and using a cleat on the
>>wall? How is the torsion box aspect of the shelf actually related to
>>the hanging of it? It would seem to me that you can use this hanging
>>scheme with or without a torsion box.
>Your scan (http://members.cox.net/jsam/bookshelf.jpg) shows a shelf
>that is clearly more than 3/4" thick. I dug out my Instamatic camera
>from the basement and measured it at 2.5" high. Scaling from that to
>the pictured camera on the shelf, I'd say that the shelf is about 1.5"
>thick.
Based on your camera dimension I reached a similar conclusion, though
I think the steep bevel on the edge may throw off this estimate some.
I thought at first that there were CDs at the bottom right, which lead
me to an estimate of 1" thick, but I'm not sure those are CDs. I'm
thinking maybe the shelf is thicker than I thought. It looks like
solid wood, though. If plywood was used they did a darn good job
matching it.
>If your application really requires a shelf 3/4" thin, I think you
>will need to scale back the depth to 3 or 4 inches. Even the crossed
>grain construction of a 1/8" plywood skin on a half inch cleat will
>not hold much. Making the shelf out of solid wood will be worse - the
>"flanges" will split along the grain.
I don't have a specific application in mind, so I'm flexible. I do
have a space in mind. Is there any difference in the strength of this
mounting scheme done with a groove routed out of solid wood versus an
actual torsion box with the same sized groove?
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:42:09 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>This is also called a French cleat.
>Tom
Thanks, I had no idea what it was called!
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"Thomas Bunetta" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:jsXAd.19998$_62.10261@trnddc01...
>> "damian penney" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <snip>> Even simpler and more sturdy is a torsion box. A few months
> back one of the
>> magazines had an 'S' shaped series of shelves made using torsion
>> boxes.
> The
>> 'wall' member of the box is mounted, then the remainder of the box is
>> attached to it with screws topa and bottom.
>
> I wouldn't argue stronger, but simpler???
> Split a board lengthwise with a 45 degree cut, fasten one side to the
> wall and the other to the work (both level) and you're done.
> Tom
>
>
>
On reflection, 'simpler' does seem a bit odd! Perhaps it was in reference
to the drilling holes through the edge of the shelf and inserting 12"
bolts, or somesuch suggestion?
=20
"Adrian Mariano" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:WlFCd.67143$up.58190@lakeread08...
| "PDQ" <[email protected]> writes:
|=20
| > =20
| >"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:IYpCd.25497$2X6.23612@trnddc07...
| >| [email protected] (Adrian Mariano) wrote:
| >|=20
| >| > I'm not sure I understand the torsion box concept as it applies =
here.
| >| > If I do understand it then the equivalent hanging scheme can be
| >| > performed without actually making a torsion box. Just make a =
groove
| >| > the length of the shelf and make a mating piece that mounts to =
the
| >| > wall. The shelf slides onto the mating piece and is secured by
| >| > screws. So it looks like this:
| >| >=20
| >| >|
| >| >|----x-------------------
| >| >| x
| >| >|----x----
| >| >| x |
| >| >| x |
| >| >|----x----
| >| >| v
| >| >|-----------------------
| >| >=20
| >| >=20
| >| > where I show the side view with the wall on the left and the =
screw
| >| > shown as x's. This seems like the most secure after the metal =
bars
| >| > scheme, and possibly easier to implement (?). =20
| >| >=20
| >| > Any more thoughts on this? =20
| >| >=20
| >| >=20
| >|=20
| >| I think the shelf with groove would be more prone to sag than the =
torsion=20
| >| box. Choice depends on how thin you want the shelf. A few years ago =
I saw=20
| >| a photo in one of the magazines of Ian Kirby sitting on a wall hung =
| >| torsion box. I don't think that would be doable with any of the =
other=20
| >| schemes.
|=20
| >As NO-SAG spans are concerned, the following is true for a book =
shelf:
|=20
| >3/4" plywood -- 36"
| >3/4" particleboard -- 28"
| >3/4" Oak board -- 48"
| >1/2" acrylic -- 22"
| >3/8" glass -- 18"
|=20
| >These are the maximum spans for a load of 25 lbs. and no additional =
support.
|=20
| Sag shouldn't be a significant issue with the shelf in question. It's
| going to be supported presumably at each stud, so the span is at
| worst 24". =20
|=20
You got that right. The lengths cited are maximum spans for the given =
material. The comparison following is for a 3/4" X 12" X 48" Oak board. =
Your recolection may be right for solid material; but, remember, the =
torsion box is not solid - it is like a corrogated box. As well, the =
box has a definite weight advantage due to all the air spaces.
|=20
| >A torsion-box of 1 1/2" X 12" X 48" will have 2/3 less deflection
| >under load than a similar length Oak board at about 1/3 the cost.
|=20
| Are you saying that a 1.5" thick torsion box would have 2/3 less
| deflection than a similar length and THICKNESS oak board? (If so, why
| is this true? I would expect it to be somewhat weaker than a solid
| piece of the same dimensions.) An inch and a half is too thick for
| this shelf. It would look ungainly. As I recall, deflection is
| inversely proportional to the cube of the thickness of the beam, so
| thickness is an important variable. A 1.5 inch thick oak board would
| have 1/8 the deflection (7/8 less) than a 3/4 inch thick board.
|=20
| >The torsion box can be constructed from:
| >1/8" or 1/4" skins top and bottom
| >1/8" or 1/4" thick logitudinal core strips spaced 3" apart
| >1/8" or 1/4" thick spacers set every 6" apart.
|=20
| >Given 1/4" skins, the front skin would be 1 1/2" wide and the back
| >"skin" would be 1" wide and 1" thick and 47 1/2 " long. This would
| >allow the back "skin" to be screwed to the wall and the torsion box
| >to be screwed/glued to the cleat. =20
|=20
| But to make the design the right size (about 3/4 inch thick) I'd
| presumably have to use 1/8" skins and the back piece would be 1/2 inch
| thick. How is this functionally any different than routing a 1/2 inch
| groove in the back of a solid piece of wood and using a cleat on the
| wall? How is the torsion box aspect of the shelf actually related to
| the hanging of it? It would seem to me that you can use this hanging
| scheme with or without a torsion box.
|=20
The torsion box would really be no thicker than any average shelf would =
appear if there were a 3/4" X 1 1/2" support rabbeted to the front =
and/or back of a board. Not only does this approach increase the =
load-bearing capability of the wood, it also adds a look of finish to =
the shelf and would be a fine way to conceal plywood.
As long as the load to be carried is light, a 1/2" dadoe would work =
quite nicely. It would still need to be about 1" deep to afford space =
to hang a few screws.
The torsion box might even be easier to construct than effecting a 1/2" =
dadoe 1" into the edge of a board - especially if it were a stopped =
dadoe.
--=20
PDQ
--