Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:46:27 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Look it up in a dictionary.
>
> Why ? When did dictionaries become an authority on technical terms?
> Even if you ask the OWLs themselves they don't claim to be the
> creators of language, only it's documentors. When you get to
> technical or craft terminology, dictionaries produced by general
> lexicographers are often carefully accurate over their source
> citations, but vague or downright wrong over meanings.
My original knowledge of this came from my brother in law. He checked his
"Artist Encyclopedia" and learnd this definition. This large dictionary
looking book deals mainly with making your own paints.
<< Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. >><BR><BR>
Urethane is not varnish. Not even all varnishes are alike. What do you need
vrnish for? If it;s for exterior or waterproof use, get a marine spar varnish.
If not, then you can probably use Waterlox instead. It wipes on, self levels
and barely needs any sanding.
urethane has no flexibility at all, so it can crack. I almost never use it.
>What do you needvrnish for
Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on poly was
available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane because of it's
plasitic look. I have several samples of different stains on red oak topcoated
with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe on varnish on new samples of the two
colors I like best and see if I liked that better than the oil as a topcoat.
Depending on what it looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just
wanted to get a small can for testing.
Mike in Arkansas
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:38:25 GMT, patriarch
<<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
>Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
>quickly. T
Waterlox also makes a urethane product that can be thinned and wiped
on. The urethane and Original are both excellent products.
Tung Oil varnishes are sold under the brands McCloskey (Tung Seal and
Gym Seal), and Hope's, among others.
Pratt and Lambert makes terrific alkyd varnishes, available at any
paint store that carries P&L products.
Still want poly? ANY polyurethane can be thinned down to become
"wiping poly", just like Minwax and Watco.
Plain old boiled linseed oil, from any hardware store will pop figure
under any of the above or shellac.
** Don't forget that varnish and BLO rags can spontaneously combust,
don't leave them around all balled up! **
Have fun,
Barry
On 01 Dec 2004 04:30:45 GMT, [email protected] (JMWEBER987) wrote:
>>What do you needvrnish for
>
>Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on poly was
>available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane because of it's
>plasitic look. I have several samples of different stains on red oak topcoated
>with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe on varnish on new samples of the two
>colors I like best and see if I liked that better than the oil as a topcoat.
>Depending on what it looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just
>wanted to get a small can for testing.
>Mike in Arkansas
YMMV, but I've found that the Watco Wipe-on poly is thin enough that it
doesn't give that plastic look.
patriarch wrote:
<<snip>
> The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
> Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
> quickly. Two or three coats on red oak, and you're ready for wax, if you
> want to tone down the gloss. Application is incredibly easy, and it
> brings a nice, mild amber tone to unstained red oak.
>
> See if you can find a sample...
>
> Patriarch
At the local Woodcraft store they have Waterlox samples in little
pouches...should be more than enough to test on your samples. Samples of
several Waterlox products are available...something like $2.00 each IIRC.
Walt
[email protected] (JMWEBER987) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>>What do you needvrnish for
>
> Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on
> poly was available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane
> because of it's plasitic look. I have several samples of different
> stains on red oak topcoated with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe
> on varnish on new samples of the two colors I like best and see if I
> liked that better than the oil as a topcoat. Depending on what it
> looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just wanted to get a
> small can for testing. Mike in Arkansas
The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
quickly. Two or three coats on red oak, and you're ready for wax, if you
want to tone down the gloss. Application is incredibly easy, and it brings
a nice, mild amber tone to unstained red oak.
See if you can find a sample...
Patriarch
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On 01 Dec 2004 04:30:45 GMT, [email protected] (JMWEBER987) wrote:
> YMMV, but I've found that the Watco Wipe-on poly is thin enough that it
> doesn't give that plastic look.
Also, don't forget, that it depends a lot how much you put on per layer,
and how many layers you put on. I'm especially partial to shellac
underneath (to seal and "pop" the grain) and poly on top in very very
thin layers. You end up with a durable finish that doesn't look
plasticy at all.
-BAT
I agree that brush-on poly can look plastic-like. About the only thing I
have used it on recently is a hardwood bar top. Yup, it looks like plastic.
However I have used MinWax wipe on poly and it does a pretty good job of
simulating oil. Others have said that the Watco wipe-on is even better but
I have not used it yet. It does provide similar iridescence (for lack of a
better word) as oil, in that the grain changes its character as light and
your perspective changes.
I apply it in a similar manner as oil by flooding the first coat and letting
it soak. Then wiping off excess. However subsequent coats are done lightly
allowing the finsh to build slowly. A durable top such as a table will
require several coats. I have built some tops to 7-8 coats because the
product is very thin. Use the usual process for light sanding that you
would for Danish or other finishes. Probably sounds silly but I often
burnish the final coat or two with a piece of brown grocery bag (probably
equivalent to about 600 to 800 grit paper and always available in the
pantry). The good news is you can usually sand and overcoat on 2 to 4 hour
intervals depending on temp and humidity
On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, [email protected] (JMWEBER987) spake the
words:
>Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
>use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
>Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
>varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
>and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
If you swear by Microsoft, buy ALL the brands the TV commercials tell
you to buy, and spray paint on your head to cover your bald spot, go
for it. You obviously won't know the difference. ;(
The reason I'm so down on poly is that very few people can put on a
urethane finish without making it look like the piece was wrapped in
Saran and they're prone to miniscule bubbles which make it look even
worse. Abused, it's a cheesy finish which is hell to repair. The
wipe-on polys are better, a step in the right direction, IMHO.
Otherwise, use a non-urethane varnish which won't have to be stripped
with the most caustic aircraft paint remover known to man.
>or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
>one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
Yes, or Russ at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/Varnishes.htm
Yes, Watco (very small amount of varnish), Waterlox (tung oil + more
varnish), and Tried & True varnish-oil are all great varnish-based
finishes. I've always loved varnish above all other finishes, despite
its longer drying time, though I haven't found a straight poly-free
varnish recently. I stopped looking when I found Waterlox. Since I
don't do glossy finishes (rubbing the gloss down to satin with 0000
steel wool and paste wax once it's dry), I don't have to worry about
slower-drying varnish gathering dust as much as gloss lovers do.
-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> Which still does not mean that the polyurethane classifier shoes used in
> taconite mining are made of varnish, even though they may be translucent.
Yes.. We should probably leave clothing and similar items out of the mix.
LOL
On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, [email protected] (JMWEBER987) wrote:
>Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
>use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
>Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
>varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
>and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
>or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
>one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/oils_varnish.htm
"MikeG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or
> decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.
And BS is BS.
While the above is, by dictionary definition, technically true,
***********************************************************************
PRONUNCIATION: värnsh KEY NOUN: 1a. A paint containing a solvent and
an oxidizing or evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard,
glossy, transparent film.
************************************************************************
of the hundreds of woodworkers I've known over the years not one would
accept paint et al under the heading of varnish nor a clear coat as
paint in a normal woodworking discourse. In other words, in the
woodworking community, the dictionary definition is also BS written by
someone who's only woodworking experience has been sharpening their #2
pencil.
Using the above definition with a bunch of woodworkers is nit picking
just for the sake of an argument at best, at worst, well...........
I think most wood workers are capable of understanding the difference.
Need the technical definition be changed to satisfy those that cannot learn
the difference?
With the statement, "all polyurethane is not varnish", being wrong, a
correction is not nit picking.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
> that
> "transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
> opaque pigment then it's not varnish.
I'll go and agree with you on that point. Although I would think that a
finish could contain some pigment and still be termed a varnish as long as
it is not opaque.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Now let's see, I guess that Imron, Awlgrip, and Irathane are all
> varnishes.
> I guess that the 3M 8561 Transparent Film that we used to use to protect
> the heaters on the DHC-7 was a varnish.
>
Ok, Now you are assuming that all paints are opaque.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JMWEBER987 wrote:
>
> There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
> bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.
> All varnish is not polyurethane
True. Shellac and Paint are "Varnishes".
and all polyurethane is not varnish.
False. Unless you are relating to something like Polyurethane Glue.
Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or
decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.
In article <[email protected]>, jmweber987
@aol.com says...
> Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
> use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
> Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
> varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
> and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
> or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
> one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
>
If you accept the current generic definition of varnish, a surface
finish of oil, carrier/thinner, resin, polyurethane and urethane are
varnishes. The only difference being the type of resin used and the hype
the advertisement people give it.
If you want to get picky about it and throw in archaic definitions the
whole mess can get quite complex.
My take is that, for almost all practical purposes, it matters little
which octane varnish is used. Of course my take is also to avoid varnish
whenever possible and practical.
You also will find spar/marine varnish. This is a long oil varnish, a
higher ration of oil to resin making for a more flexible finish that can
better accommodate the movement of wood in an outdoor environment.
However it is still a surface finish made up of an oil, carrier/thinner,
resin.
Hope it helps
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
In article <WTlrd.3315$zK1.1102@trndny05>, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles"
<"Charles Krug"@aol.com> says...
> On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, JMWEBER987 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
> > with for use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans
> > labeled Urethane. Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what
> > they have. Ha, a can of varnish. Read the back and it says 100%
> > urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish and urethane are the same thing
> > and poly-urethane is something else altogether. Right?? Wrong??. The
> > brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff or would I be
> > better off buying something online like Watco or the like from one of
> > the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
>
> Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood
> Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS
> of wood finishing.
>
> "Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.
>
> It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of
> shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.
>
> Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in
> Big Box stores.
>
> Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like
> "plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and
> feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC
> Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of
> thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish
> most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . . :)
>
> Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on
> Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than
> brushed shellac.
>
>
A very good summary in all but one point. The resin need not be
synthetic. There are still some makers out there that use natural resins
such as rosin and amber. Tried and True finishes is one example.
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,=20
[email protected] says...
> Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection o=
r=20
> decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.
>=20
>=20
And BS is BS.
While the above is, by dictionary definition, technically true,
***********************************************************************=20
PRONUNCIATION: v=E4rnsh KEY NOUN: 1a. A paint containing a solvent and=
=20
an oxidizing or evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard,=20
glossy, transparent film.=20
************************************************************************
of the hundreds of woodworkers I've known over the years not one would=20
accept paint et al under the heading of varnish nor a clear coat as=20
paint in a normal woodworking discourse. In other words, in the=20
woodworking community, the dictionary definition is also BS written by=20
someone who's only woodworking experience has been sharpening their #2=20
pencil.=20
Using the above definition with a bunch of woodworkers is nit picking=20
just for the sake of an argument at best, at worst, well........... =20
=20
--=20
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Need the technical definition be changed to satisfy those that cannot learn
> the difference?
>
>
No, the technical definition is inadequate and out dated and should be
corrected and updated to keep up with an ever changing real world.
Like I said, nit picking or you aren't capable of understanding the
difference.
Take your pick you are either one the other or..........
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It's not quite that facetious though--the company that makes the
> classifier
> shoes sells the formulation they use in cans and it can be used as a
> coating. So does it become a varnish merely by applying it to a surface?
I suppose, by definition, and the intended purpose was use it as a varnish.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> It does _not_ state that paints are varnishes.
Point made. I Stand corrected on this point. However, white wash, is not
totally opaque and is considered paint.
On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, JMWEBER987 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
> with for use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans
> labeled Urethane. Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what
> they have. Ha, a can of varnish. Read the back and it says 100%
> urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish and urethane are the same thing
> and poly-urethane is something else altogether. Right?? Wrong??. The
> brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff or would I be
> better off buying something online like Watco or the like from one of
> the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood
Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS
of wood finishing.
"Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.
It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of
shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.
Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in
Big Box stores.
Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like
"plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and
feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC
Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of
thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish
most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . . :)
Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on
Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than
brushed shellac.
In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
FWW online has a nice article on finishes this month:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp
m
DarylRos wrote:
> << Ha, a can of
> varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. >><BR><BR>
>
> Urethane is not varnish. Not even all varnishes are alike. What do you
> need vrnish for? If it;s for exterior or waterproof use, get a marine spar
> varnish. If not, then you can probably use Waterlox instead. It wipes on,
> self levels and barely needs any sanding.
>
> urethane has no flexibility at all, so it can crack. I almost never use
> it.
Polyurethane can have a great deal of flexibility. It all depends on what
you buy. "Polyurethane" covers a quite broad range of materials.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
JMWEBER987 wrote:
> Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
> for
> use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
> Urethane.
> Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
> of
> varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
> varnish and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something
> else altogether.
> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
> stuff
> or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
> from
> one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.
All varnish is not polyurethane and all polyurethane is not varnish.
Whether a polyurethane varnish is suited to your purpose depends on your
purpose.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, [email protected] (JMWEBER987) spake the
> words:
>
>>Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
>>for
>>use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
>>Urethane.
>>Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
>>of
>>varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
>>varnish and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something
>>else altogether.
>> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
>> stuff
>
> If you swear by Microsoft, buy ALL the brands the TV commercials tell
> you to buy, and spray paint on your head to cover your bald spot, go
> for it. You obviously won't know the difference. ;(
>
> The reason I'm so down on poly is that very few people can put on a
> urethane finish without making it look like the piece was wrapped in
> Saran and they're prone to miniscule bubbles which make it look even
> worse. Abused, it's a cheesy finish which is hell to repair. The
> wipe-on polys are better, a step in the right direction, IMHO.
>
> Otherwise, use a non-urethane varnish which won't have to be stripped
> with the most caustic aircraft paint remover known to man.
Uh, there are paint removers that will remove cured polyurethane from epoxy
without damaging the epoxy. The ones that remove the epoxy too are "the
most caustic aircraft paint removers known to man".
>
>
>>or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
>>from
>>one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
>
> Yes, or Russ at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/Varnishes.htm
>
> Yes, Watco (very small amount of varnish), Waterlox (tung oil + more
> varnish), and Tried & True varnish-oil are all great varnish-based
> finishes. I've always loved varnish above all other finishes, despite
> its longer drying time, though I haven't found a straight poly-free
> varnish recently. I stopped looking when I found Waterlox. Since I
> don't do glossy finishes (rubbing the gloss down to satin with 0000
> steel wool and paste wax once it's dry), I don't have to worry about
> slower-drying varnish gathering dust as much as gloss lovers do.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
> i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
> -------------------------------------------------------------
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
> FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.
I did. The Oxford. It excludes paint, and if one is being pedantic it
excludes polyesters, epoxies, and some urethanes.
> Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They
> can be oil, alcohol, or water based.
>
>
> varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in
> oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries
> on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film.
So how about if it's a liquid that cures solid without ever being dissolved
in anything?
> It is used
> for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
> translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
> fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
> (commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
> such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
> gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a
> volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel
> is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative
> dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in
> the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their
> constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet,
> carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac,
> and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the
> Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins
> dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating
> oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying
> linseed oil varnish on their instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of
> gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a
> volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming
> a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or
> decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For
> oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such
> as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil)
> and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit
> varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac,
> dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g.,
> alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added
> pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile
> solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of
> trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the
> proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
> patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
> varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
> cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and
> applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings.
> Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish
> on their instruments.
>
>
>
>
> "JMWEBER987" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
>> with for
>> use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
>> Urethane.
>> Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
>> of
>> varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
>> varnish
>> and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else
>> altogether.
>> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
>> stuff
>> or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
>> from
>> one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> JMWEBER987 wrote:
>>
>> There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
>> bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.
>
>> All varnish is not polyurethane
>
> True. Shellac and Paint are "Varnishes".
>
>
>
> and all polyurethane is not varnish.
>
> False. Unless you are relating to something like Polyurethane Glue.
Now let's see, I guess that Imron, Awlgrip, and Irathane are all varnishes.
I guess that the 3M 8561 Transparent Film that we used to use to protect
the heaters on the DHC-7 was a varnish.
> Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or
> decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.
I see. So the piece of lucite I have covering my desktop is varnish? After
all it's used for protection of a surface and is transparent. Polyurethane
refers to large family of plastics with varied properties and uses. While
it is used for transparent coatings, that is only one minor use to which it
is put. Take a look at <http://www.irproducts.com/> for a wide range of
polurethane products most of which are not adhesives or surface coatings.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.
>>
>> So what is it ?
>>
>
> "ANY" product that is applied to cover a surface. Paint, Shellac,
> Polyurethane, All Varnishes. Varnish is a generic term. Varnish is not
> restricted to being oil, or water based.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order to
give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
durable or ornamental".
Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not dissolved
in anything, it's all "resinous matter".
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
>> dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order
>> to give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
>> durable or ornamental".
>>
>> Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
>> transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
>> transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not
>> dissolved
>> in anything, it's all "resinous matter".
>
>
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
>
>
>
> var·nish (vär'nÄsh)
> n.
>
> 1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating
> binder,
> used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.
> 2.. The smooth coating or gloss resulting from the application of this
> paint.
That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
>> that
>> "transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
>> opaque pigment then it's not varnish.
>
>
> I'll go and agree with you on that point. Although I would think that a
> finish could contain some pigment and still be termed a varnish as long as
> it is not opaque.
Which is the case for some urethane-based varnishes sold as "spar varnish",
among others.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>
>
>> That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
>> that
>> "transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
>> opaque pigment then it's not varnish.
>
>
> I have another reference that states that a varnish need not be
> transparent,
> clear. It can also be translucent, which I would say most varnishes are.
Which still does not mean that the polyurethane classifier shoes used in
taconite mining are made of varnish, even though they may be translucent.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> Which still does not mean that the polyurethane classifier shoes used in
>> taconite mining are made of varnish, even though they may be translucent.
>
>
> Yes.. We should probably leave clothing and similar items out of the mix.
> LOL
It's not quite that facetious though--the company that makes the classifier
shoes sells the formulation they use in cans and it can be used as a
coating. So does it become a varnish merely by applying it to a surface?
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"MikeG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No, the technical definition is inadequate and out dated and should be
> corrected and updated to keep up with an ever changing real world.
Well I think if you believe this you should have this corrected.
> Like I said, nit picking or you aren't capable of understanding the
> difference.
Oh I understand, you simply choose to not believe.
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:46:27 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Look it up in a dictionary.
Why ? When did dictionaries become an authority on technical terms?
Even if you ask the OWLs themselves they don't claim to be the
creators of language, only it's documentors. When you get to
technical or craft terminology, dictionaries produced by general
lexicographers are often carefully accurate over their source
citations, but vague or downright wrong over meanings.
>For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
>fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
>(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
>such as turpentine.
Well that's the description of someone who's never tried it. Have you
ever made copal dissolve in oil ?
--
Smert' spamionam
FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.
Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They
can be oil, alcohol, or water based.
varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in
oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on
exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for
the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile
solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish
with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a
volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the
sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for
the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied
when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and
other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their
instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic
resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which
dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is
used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile
solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish
with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a
volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the
sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for
the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied
when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and
other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their
instruments.
"JMWEBER987" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
> for
> use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
> Urethane.
> Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
> of
> varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
> varnish
> and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else
> altogether.
> Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
> stuff
> or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
> from
> one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
> dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order to
> give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
> durable or ornamental".
>
> Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
> transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
> transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not
> dissolved
> in anything, it's all "resinous matter".
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
var·nish (vär'nÄsh)
n.
1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder,
used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.
2.. The smooth coating or gloss resulting from the application of this
paint.
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
>> transparency test.
>The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
> 1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder,
>used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.
Then I suggest you re-read that more carefully.
It states that varnishes are paints, and that varnishes are
transparent.
It does _not_ state that paints are varnishes.
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.
So what is it ?
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.
>
> So what is it ?
>
"ANY" product that is applied to cover a surface. Paint, Shellac,
Polyurethane, All Varnishes. Varnish is a generic term. Varnish is not
restricted to being oil, or water based.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
> that
> "transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
> opaque pigment then it's not varnish.
I have another reference that states that a varnish need not be transparent,
clear. It can also be translucent, which I would say most varnishes are.