[email protected] wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:56:20 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>>
>>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>>
>>It's simply not possible.
>JP, you need to learn to sharpen.
Yep. That I do. I'm trying though. I think my shoddy backsharpening
technique on plane irons is causing more trouble than it's (currently)
worth!
JP
****************************
Dullard?
"patrick conroy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I keep seeing and hearing about those Tormeks. Would you recommend
>> that as a sharpening system for a commercial shop? My guess is that
>
>Borrowing from Zagat's: $$$$$.
>But then you brought up the Panel Saw thang' didntcha?
In the land of the penniless, money is no object.
I do plan on having a lathe and a basic set of turning tools, but that
will not be my primary focus right out of the gate. If I do need some
elaborate turnings there are a couple of dedicated turners to which
I'll....uhh...turn.
I'll be using chisels and a few planes on a daily basis, so I'll
definitely have a series of waterstones (+/-300 through 8k) to keep
these in top order. Having spent a little time with ScarySharp these
past couple of months, I'll probably have that setup as well, but for
quick touchups I think a stone will be the way to go. Lapping and
flatting will be done on a granite surfacing plate with microabrasive
paper. Hell, I'll probably end up with a Tormek at some point! Right
now I just don't know what's "best". It sure is fun to put a nice
edge on a chisel.
Speaking of which, up until today I've been less than thrilled with
the Lee Valley honing guide I've been using. The biggest problem has
been that you need to hold the chisel or plane blade somewhat square
to the jig while you try to adjust the bevel angle. And then, once
you get the bevel angle right, you screw up the squareness by
tightening the brass screw. Really a PITA, IMO.
If you don't have the jig, you won't know what I'm talking about but
here goes....
Basically I milled a hunk of wood to the thickness such that when you
set the honing guide flat on it, and then stick a particular thickness
blade in it, it sits dead square and at the appropriate depth for (in
my case) a 25d bevel. Remember to set the microadjustment to the top
prior to setting the jig. All in all it's a block of wood with a
smaller block of wood attached dead square so that a chisel with
parallel sides sides at the right depth (and square) for honing.
If Robin Lee is out there, you should think about including a couple
of these with the honing system. Shouldn't take but a minute with the
CNC capapbilities you guys have - and it'll really make the guide much
more effective. It's simply a block of aluminum milled to the
appropriate thickness with a square reference edge for the side of
your blade.
JP
***************************
The cotter pin thingy is rusting as well.
Nope, you don't run off the end, anyway, unless you want a chip. Finesse,
not force on a low angle block with a sharp edge and sufficient skew. On a
full-size butcher block, low angle smoother. Worked a treat on some slabs
of various woods for the kiddies to count the rings.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >A sharp, finely-set, low-angle block plane will sort it.
>
> Wouldn't I be better off with a bevel down plane carrying a bit more
> mass?
>
> JP
I'm one of those who doesn't have problems with that jig. If you do,
consider making some wooden ramps which straddle your stones, a poor man's
dodge.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Speaking of which, up until today I've been less than thrilled with
> the Lee Valley honing guide I've been using. The biggest problem has
> been that you need to hold the chisel or plane blade somewhat square
> to the jig while you try to adjust the bevel angle. And then, once
> you get the bevel angle right, you screw up the squareness by
> tightening the brass screw. Really a PITA, IMO.
>
> If you don't have the jig, you won't know what I'm talking about but
> here goes....
>
> Basically I milled a hunk of wood to the thickness such that when you
> set the honing guide flat on it, and then stick a particular thickness
> blade in it, it sits dead square and at the appropriate depth for (in
> my case) a 25d bevel. Remember to set the microadjustment to the top
> prior to setting the jig. All in all it's a block of wood with a
> smaller block of wood attached dead square so that a chisel with
> parallel sides sides at the right depth (and square) for honing.
>
> If Robin Lee is out there, you should think about including a couple
> of these with the honing system. Shouldn't take but a minute with the
> CNC capapbilities you guys have - and it'll really make the guide much
> more effective. It's simply a block of aluminum milled to the
> appropriate thickness with a square reference edge for the side of
> your blade.
>
> JP
> ***************************
> The cotter pin thingy is rusting as well.
I guess you are trolling here Jay. Why else bring up the argument?
BTY, I don't subscribe to it but I think you may need to sharpen your plane
if you can't do this.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
> When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
> It's simply not possible.
>
> JP
In article <[email protected]>, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
>It's simply not possible.
Not possible _for_you_ is not the same as not possible. If you're having
trouble with this, you need to sharpen your plane iron, and possibly work on
your technique as well. I don't have difficulty with this.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:48:02 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>>Rub it in why dontcha! What plane and iron do you use, and to what
>>grit/grade do you sharpen?
>>
>Lee Valley low-angle block plane with the stock iron. I sharpen on a Tormek
>water wheel.
I keep seeing and hearing about those Tormeks. Would you recommend
that as a sharpening system for a commercial shop? My guess is that
I'll want to have a decent set up for chisels, plane blades and
turning tools, but other blades and bits will be sent out.
JP
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:56:20 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:
>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
>It's simply not possible.
>
>JP
can't count the number of times I've had hardware store sales drones
tell me "there aint no such thing" when I ask for some piece of
hardware that I have a sample of.
what they mean, of course is that they don't carry them (or have never
heard of them...)
JP, you need to learn to sharpen.
In article <[email protected]>, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Jay Pique
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>>>
>>>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>>>
>>>It's simply not possible.
>>
>>Not possible _for_you_ is not the same as not possible. If you're having
>>trouble with this, you need to sharpen your plane iron, and possibly work on
>>your technique as well. I don't have difficulty with this.
>
>Rub it in why dontcha! What plane and iron do you use, and to what
>grit/grade do you sharpen?
>
Lee Valley low-angle block plane with the stock iron. I sharpen on a Tormek
water wheel.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
> When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
> It's simply not possible.
>
> JP
>
Having a rough afternoon, Jay?
There's lots of maple. And lots of handplanes.
How clean do you want it? How large an end piece?
Patriarch
Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Having a rough afternoon, Jay?
>
> Indeed. Things were going oh so nicely - doors were open on the shop,
> a nice breeze blowing, finish flowing perfectly, low dust levels, and
> a new quarter sawn maple kitchen was just humming along. Then I
> started to fit and clean up some doors. Ugh.
>
<snip>
It can't stay perfect forever. Reality steps in. Unfortunately.
>>There's lots of maple. And lots of handplanes.
>
> I want more handplanes. And more sharp blades. And more high quality
> power tools. What are you called when you just want the best for the
> job at hand? Neandermite? Normander?
Human. And a woodworker.
>
>>How clean do you want it? How large an end piece?
>
> I want it "clean", as in "no sanding". I understand that a shooting
> board may be necessary to avoid tearout if I go all the way across the
> bottom (or top) of a cope & stick cabinet door, but I'd prefer to just
> end the cut midway across the rail and then attack it from the other
> side. Then maybe break the edge with a quick swipe of 150. The
> stiles are 3" wide.
Others are better qualified to instruct on technique. I am but a relative
beginner to the ways of handplanes at the glass-smooth edge. And I just
bought a drum sander. I guess that makes me a heretic, in some circles.
>
>>Patriarch
>
> Are you a Father, or just a father?
I am the father of four fine sons, and one beautiful grandson, 14 months
old. In my father's generation, he was the only one of his brothers to
have a son, me, and so the family name continues through my family only.
'Patriarch' was the new user name I put on one of my computers some years
ago, when I needed to keep some things seperate.
I am active in my church, (not Catholic), but this is not the venue for a
religious discussion, unless you count the feeling of finally planing maple
end grain absolutely, perfectly mirror smooth.
Then it's time to quit for the day, with a smile. Even if it is only 11
am.
>
> JP
> ******************************
> Just a son.
Have another go at it tomorrow. Sometimes it gets better.
Patriarch
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I guess you are trolling here Jay.
<g> Just a *llittle*. It's all in the presentation. Especially in
heavily fished waters....
> Why else bring up the argument?
Patriarch hit the nail on the head - just a little frustrated.
>BTY, I don't subscribe to it but I think you may need to sharpen your plane
>if you can't do this.
Yep - and work on my technique as well. Or maybe I should just figure
out how to get cleaner trimming cuts out of bossman. Then I would
have less to worry about cleaning up.
JP
>"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>>
>> When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>>
>> It's simply not possible.
>>
>> JP
>
A sharp, finely-set, low-angle block plane will sort it.
Cheers
Frank
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
> When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
> It's simply not possible.
>
> JP
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Jay Pique wrote:
> "Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>A sharp, finely-set, low-angle block plane will sort it.
>
> Wouldn't I be better off with a bevel down plane carrying a bit more
> mass?
Block planes are designed for the purpose. That "more mass" may be part of
your problem--lets you get up enough inertia to do a cut with a less than
perfect blade but when you get to the edge that same inertia causes
breakout. With any planing job you want the sharpness of the blade to do
the work, not the inertia of the plane, but end grain is exceptionally
unforgiving in this regard.
As to "how sharp", if it's not cutting satisfactorily then it's not sharp
enough.
>
> JP
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Jay Pique wrote:
> How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
> When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
> It's simply not possible.
You've gotten lots of good advice on this already, but I'll sum up
my approach. The iron has to be extremely sharp. I finish mine on a
sheet of the 0.5 micron microfinishing film. Depending on the size of
the piece I'm working on, I use either a low-angle block or a low-angle
smoother. Either way, I set the iron for a very light cut and close the
mouth up pretty tight.
So I don't have to worry about chipout at the end of the stroke, I
mark the cut and take a block plane to put a bit of a bevel down to the
point where I want the cut to end. (I do this all around the end of the
board.) This has the added advantage of giving me an extra visual
reference point. (I.e., when the bevel is gone, I should be right
there.)
I clamp the board end-up in my leg vise (keeping it as low in the
jaws as possible so it doesn't flex or wobble) and skew the plane
slightly as I go. Skewing helps two ways: It gives you a slicing cut
and it helps balance the plane better than approaching it from
straight-on.
Finally, even on endgrain you need to go with the grain. Do a test
cut to find which direction leaves a better surface. It is usually very
noticeable.
Do all of these things, and you'll soon find yourself making little
endgrain curlies that crumble when you try to pick them up.
BTW, in my experience, it's harder to plane endgrain *pine* than it
is maple or other harder woods.
Chuck Vance
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:47:26 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>A sharp, finely-set, low-angle block plane will sort it.
>
>Wouldn't I be better off with a bevel down plane carrying a bit more
>mass?
>
>JP
not necessarily. for the edges of doors a block plane can be a lot
easier to control. if you're setting up a shooting board and have a
low angle smoother or something it could be a different matter...
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>>
>>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>>
>>It's simply not possible.
>
>Not possible _for_you_ is not the same as not possible. If you're having
>trouble with this, you need to sharpen your plane iron, and possibly work on
>your technique as well. I don't have difficulty with this.
Rub it in why dontcha! What plane and iron do you use, and to what
grit/grade do you sharpen?
Thanks -
JP
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I keep seeing and hearing about those Tormeks. Would you recommend
> that as a sharpening system for a commercial shop? My guess is that
Borrowing from Zagat's: $$$$$.
But then you brought up the Panel Saw thang' didntcha?
patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>Having a rough afternoon, Jay?
Indeed. Things were going oh so nicely - doors were open on the shop,
a nice breeze blowing, finish flowing perfectly, low dust levels, and
a new quarter sawn maple kitchen was just humming along. Then I
started to fit and clean up some doors. Ugh.
I like the idea of using a plane to clean up end grain, but I'm just
not so sure of the technique. Do I need to get a miter plane from Lie
Nielsen and rig up a complex shooting board? The pretty stile edges I
can get with a plane make me want to carry that process to the rails.
If I ScarySharp to 1500 grit, will that be enough? Maybe I'd better
get ahold of some of those shapton stones that I just read were so
well elutriated!
>There's lots of maple. And lots of handplanes.
I want more handplanes. And more sharp blades. And more high quality
power tools. What are you called when you just want the best for the
job at hand? Neandermite? Normander?
>How clean do you want it? How large an end piece?
I want it "clean", as in "no sanding". I understand that a shooting
board may be necessary to avoid tearout if I go all the way across the
bottom (or top) of a cope & stick cabinet door, but I'd prefer to just
end the cut midway across the rail and then attack it from the other
side. Then maybe break the edge with a quick swipe of 150. The
stiles are 3" wide.
>Patriarch
Are you a Father, or just a father?
JP
******************************
Just a son.
"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>A sharp, finely-set, low-angle block plane will sort it.
Wouldn't I be better off with a bevel down plane carrying a bit more
mass?
JP
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:56:20 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:
>How can you tell when a woodworker is lying?
>
>When he claims he can cleanly plane the end grain of maple.
>
>It's simply not possible.
>
>JP
Prolly got a half dozen block planes around here and they'll all do
the trick
Ya gotta unnerstan that most block planes (even the LN skew, which is
my current favorite) are kits - and don't run just right, the way they
show up at your door.
You gotta tune the suckers up.
First, ya gotta flatten the iron and this may take some time. I like
to work the flat down on a piece of roughish paper laid in a bed of
water on a chunk of float glass that's at least 3/8" thick.
Keep working through the grits until you get a mirror finish at least
an inch back from the bevel.
As a break from working on this, you can tune up the sole of the
plane. Same deal, work through the grits until you can see yourself.
Some folks will think that's a bit extreme, I don't.
Then do the same thing to the bevel of the iron. Look at the edge
under a magnifying glass (a 10X is fine, if you keep going, you wind
up with Jonathan Swift syndrome, where nothing looks good - depending
on the scale).
Then you gotta tune up the throat of the plane. Most of them are a
little rough and need smoothing. You can start with a file, if
you're handy with it but I like to at least finish off with increasing
grits of wet or dry that I wrap around an old plane iron.
When you get so that the nice flat iron lays on the nice flat throat -
you're home.
Now, the throat opening should be set pretty tight to plane end grain.
The iron should project evenly and a minimal amount, to start off
with. Set a light up so that you can see that nice shiny iron begin
to peek out above the nice shiny sole of the plane.
If'n you get some chatter after all of this, call up Ronny Hock and
order a plane iron of decent thickness - you won't regret it.
Now, ya got yaself a decent instrument - it's time to play some music.
End grain is as directional as face grain. You want to ride the waves
of the grain so that the iron is riding uphill on the grain pattern.
If you go the other way, you'll never get where you want to go.
When you've really done it right, you'll be able to take that 10X
magnifying glass and see something that the sanders among us never get
to see -clean cut open pores. When you put a finish on that sucker,
you'll get to see a play of light on the cut surfaces that has
everything to do with why people become Neanders.
Good Luck and Godspeed.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1