raid on Gibson Guitar

On Sep 2, 9:12=A0am, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I guess we will all just buy Fender guitars, from now on, where they are
> more honest and not smugglers.

Except Fender has been harassing small-time builders
of cigar box guitars, since cigar box guitars are
square, and Fender, which owns Gretsch, who built
Bo Diddley's signature instruments, owns the patent on
square guitars.

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
> east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
> made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
> quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.

There are whole guitars being made of wood that has been submerged in swamps
for thousands of years.

http://www.guitars.co.nz/ancient_story.html

basilisk wrote:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>
> basilisk

I saw another report claiming it was not the WOOD, per se, but the fact that
the wood was not "finished" by union workers in India.

The feds are not saying - yet - just what their beef is, whether it's the
wood itself or something else. The problem could be lack of the proper
paperwork in the importation process. We don't know yet.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I saw another report claiming it was not the WOOD, per se, but the fact
> that the wood was not "finished" by union workers in India.

Please document that whether or not wood workers in India belong to a union
has anything to do with this matter. At least you didn't repeat the claim
being made on the right-wing of the blogoshpere that the real reason Gibson
was raided is because the company's CEO gave $3,500 to Republican candidates
in the last election.

> The feds are not saying - yet - just what their beef is, whether it's the
> wood itself or something else. The problem could be lack of the proper
> paperwork in the importation process. We don't know yet.

In this case that is apparently the basis of the action, that Indian law
requires this wood to be finished there and not exported raw. Allegedly (as
the popular saying goes) Gibson's paperwork was somewhat less than accurate,
i.e. describing raw wood as finished pieces to get around the law. In a
previous case the feds apparently tracked a shipment of allegedly illegally
harvested wood from Madagascar through an intermediary to Gibson and that
case is the subject of a lawsuit working its way through the courts.

This link provided by Just Windering:

http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/about-guitar-acoustics-101.html

says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a
guitar; the back, sides, fretboard, &tc. do not.

Interesting luthier.

-Zz

>
> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> to do with the sound?
>
> --
>
> Bill
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
> To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Hey Will,
I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone
a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I
don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments
but it exist in percussion types.

Marc

On 8/26/2011 3:39 PM, willshak wrote:
> basilisk wrote the following:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>
>>
>> basilisk
>
> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> to do with the sound?
>

my understanding is that a fretboard should be dimensionally stable and
resist wear. The wood should be of fairly uniform density, so that the
strings will have the same response on each fret. a non-uniform
fretboard (and neck) would have "live" and "dead" acoustic spots
affecting sound quality. Ebony, rosewood and maple have usually been
the woods of choice for those reasons. Ebony is much more expensive.

Mesquite might do very well functionally due to its exceptional hardness
and dimensional stability. I imagine that the hardest part would be
getting a large enough straight-grained piece.
I found these, that I think are pretty cool:
http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/gallery_past_mesquite.html
http://guitarsbyjake.com/texas_native_guitars.htm
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodworking-tips-1107jul/showusyourshop.html
(last picture)
http://www.guitarsbyjake.com/guitarsbyjake/shop.htm (bass has mesquite
top and fretboard)

On 8/26/2011 7:21 PM, Zz Yzx wrote:
> This link provided by Just Windering:
>
> http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/about-guitar-acoustics-101.html
>
> says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a
> guitar; the back, sides, fretboard,&tc. do not.
>
> Interesting luthier.
>
> -Zz

To be accurate, I provided this link:
http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/gallery_past_mesquite.html
I only wanted to show a gitar with a mesquite fretboard, which I thought
was cool.
It may be well that the type of wood used to make the soundboard has a
greater effect on a guitar's tone than the type of wood used to make any
other part of the guitar. However, I don't personally agree as a
general statement that only the soundboard affects how a guitar sounds.
If that was true, a $150 mass-produced guitar could be made to sound
as good as a $10,000 custom one, just by manufacturing it with a
properly designed soundboard. (We're talking about acoustic guitars;
solid body electrics don't have soundboards.) A bridge padded with soft
rubber would obviously muffle the sound, which shows that the
engineering of the bridge affects a guitar's sound. The dimensions of
the body affect the sound, as does the placement and rigidity of the
internal bracing. The shape of the frets definitely affects the sound
quality; a fret flattened by wear muddies the sound. I could go on, but
these examples make the point.

On Aug 26, 12:18=A0pm, basilisk <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457653052047122...
>
> basilisk

Hey Bas,
Thanks for passing that along. This is the first time I ever read
about any type of enforcement of protected woods. Does anyone have
other articles about raids at other type of woodworking facilities
(furniture makers for instance) where lumber was confiscated?
Marc

On Aug 26, 9:28=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> willshak wrote:
> > basilisk wrote the following:
> >>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457653052047122..=
.
>
> >> basilisk
>
> > I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> > to do with the sound?
>
> Are you joking? =A0Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
> east or the west side of the tree. =A0There are some banjo bridges being
> made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
> quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). =A0No kidding.

Banjo bridges are easy to replace, so that's the
first place someone will try to upgrade the sound.
Practicing might do them better.

I guess we will all just buy Fender guitars, from now on, where they are
more honest and not smugglers.


----------------
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the
administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in
support of the search warrant:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn
logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.

IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".

Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India
allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high
complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform
commercial quality)

IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian
factories, insuring Indian jobs.

IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the
production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies
still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of
thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.

How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these
pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness
in the pieces?

Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be
subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs
lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8"
thicker than it's supposed to be?

What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect
the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.

And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well,
at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".

Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.

Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be
no problem.

That is what this is about!!

basilisk wrote the following:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>
> basilisk

I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
to do with the sound?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

marc rosen wrote the following:
>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>> to do with the sound?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bill
>> In Hamptonburgh, NY
>> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>> To email, remove the double zeroes after @
>
> Hey Will,
> I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone
> a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I
> don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments
> but it exist in percussion types.
>
> Marc



The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal
frets in the fretboard do.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Scott Lurndal wrote the following:
> willshak <[email protected]> writes:
>> marc rosen wrote the following:
>>>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>>>> to do with the sound?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> In Hamptonburgh, NY
>>>> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>>>> To email, remove the double zeroes after @
>>> Hey Will,
>>> I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone
>>> a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I
>>> don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments
>>> but it exist in percussion types.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>
>>
>> The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal
>> frets in the fretboard do.
>
> The sound is produced by the vibration of the strings enhanced and
> amplified by resonances in the body. The strings are coupled to
> the body at two locations - the bridge and the top of the fretboard.
>
> The density of the fretboard wood has a direct relationship to the
> sound of the instrument.

OK. thanks. I can appreciate that. I'm not a guitar player. I tried when
young, but the callouses that I built up cracked and I bled all over the
fretboard. It wasn't worth the pain.


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

willshak <[email protected]> writes:
>marc rosen wrote the following:
>>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>>> to do with the sound?
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> In Hamptonburgh, NY
>>> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>>> To email, remove the double zeroes after @
>>
>> Hey Will,
>> I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone
>> a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I
>> don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments
>> but it exist in percussion types.
>>
>> Marc
>
>
>
>The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal
>frets in the fretboard do.

The sound is produced by the vibration of the strings enhanced and
amplified by resonances in the body. The strings are coupled to
the body at two locations - the bridge and the top of the fretboard.

The density of the fretboard wood has a direct relationship to the
sound of the instrument.

On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote:
> willshak wrote:
>> basilisk wrote the following:
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> basilisk
>>
>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>> to do with the sound?
>>
>
>
> Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
> east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
> made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
> quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.

Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination,
followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business.

I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin,
guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you
without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument
comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference.

IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's
D-28. BTDT. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


>
> Absolutely, trying to force American companies to send jobs
> overseas is clearly what the govt. is trying to do, it's
> all part of their overall wicked un-Americanism, but that's
> what happens when you elect a black Muslim from Kenya,
> right?
>

You finally figured it out...

Larry

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn,

Can do document that the agents who conducted this search had guns in their
hands? If not, why do you believe something you don't have reasonable
grounds to accept as true?

> disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American
> companies still "manufacturing" products

Q: Which is the number one manufacturing nation in the world?

Is the answer:

A) China
B) Japan
C) The United States of America
D) Luxembourg

> is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN
> WOODWORKING JOBS.

The way it works is if you want other nations to adhere to treaties on
imports and exports and environmental protection and so on you have to
demonstrate that you will enforce those laws and agreements too even if it
impacts companies in your own nation. The notion that for some reason the
Obama administration if obsessed with the idea of protecting jobs in India
just as part of their general wickedness is so laughably childish that
anyone promoting it ends up looking like a clown. I saw one right-wing
blogger claim the Obama administration is actively hostile to any successful
business and that's why Gibson was raided--talk about rampaging paranoia.
Meanwhile a long list of other companies that make guitars in America and
also rely on imported rosewood, ebony etc. haven't been raided. So is that
because they adhere to the law and properly document their imports, or is it
because (as some folks would have you believe) all those other companies are
run by Democratic supporters? Which explanation is more credible (to
someone with a reasonable mind)?

> Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject
> to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by
> buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than
> it's supposed to be?

Do you think that any company should get a pass on allegedly falsifying
import documents about the nature of the products they are bringing in?
Keep in mind that the previous raid was about Gibson importing wood from
Madagascar that at the time wasn't supposed to be exported from there at
all--kind of looks like a pattern, doesn't it.

> Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
> political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
> politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.

Sure, the CEO of Gibson giving $3,500 to a couple of Republican candidates
would obviously have triggered all of this [rolls eyes].

> Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be
> no problem.

> That is what this is about!!

Absolutely, trying to force American companies to send jobs overseas is
clearly what the govt. is trying to do, it's all part of their overall
wicked un-Americanism, but that's what happens when you elect a black Muslim
from Kenya, right?

On Aug 30, 8:01=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > willshak wrote:
> >> basilisk wrote the following:
> >>>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457653052047122.=
..
>
> >>> basilisk
>
> >> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anythin=
g
> >> to do with the sound?
>
> > Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
> > east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
> > made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
> > quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.
>
> Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination,
> followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business=
.
>
> I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin,
> guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you
> without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument
> comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference.
>
> IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's
> D-28. BTDT. =A0:)

What an accomplished musician can do with a guitar made
from a cigar box and a piece of 1 x 2 is revelation.

On Aug 27, 1:01=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote:
>
> > basilisk wrote the following:
> >>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457653052047122..=
.
>
> >> basilisk
>
> > I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> > to do with the sound?
>
> The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it
> will sustain the sound.
>
> Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason.

Sharper attack, longer wear.

willshak wrote:
> basilisk wrote the following:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>
>>
>> basilisk
>
> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> to do with the sound?
>


Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.

willshak wrote:
> marc rosen wrote the following:
>>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>>> to do with the sound?
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> In Hamptonburgh, NY
>>> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>>> To email, remove the double zeroes after @
>>
>> Hey Will,
>> I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone
>> a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I
>> don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments
>> but it exist in percussion types.
>>
>> Marc
>
>
>
> The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal
> frets in the fretboard do.
>

Violins don't have frets, but everything that is attached supposedly
affects the way the instument vibrates, as well of course as things that
aren't attached like a bow.

Zz Yzx wrote:
> This link provided by Just Windering:
>
> http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/about-guitar-acoustics-101.html
>
> says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a
> guitar; the back, sides, fretboard,&tc. do not.
>
> Interesting luthier.
>
> -Zz

That's a convenient point of view to have if you are trying to sell them.

On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote:
> basilisk wrote the following:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>
>>
>> basilisk
>
> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
> to do with the sound?
>

The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it
will sustain the sound.

Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
> On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote:
>> willshak wrote:
>>> basilisk wrote the following:
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> basilisk
>>>
>>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>>> to do with the sound?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
>> east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
>> made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
>> quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.
>
> Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination,
> followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business.
>
> I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin,
> guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you
> without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument
> comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference.
>
> IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's
> D-28. BTDT. :)
>

I would say that it doesn't make much difference to the listener except
for the listener who is playing! I can definitely know the difference
when I am playing a fine guitar with rosewood back and sides. I don't
own one--but I can tell the difference when I play one...lol.

I will up your estimate, and say that at least 98% of the musicality of
a performance comes from the player and not from the instrument. A good
player will appreciate a fine instrument even if his or her listeners
can't tell the differene. In fact, he or she is likely to leave a good
instrument at home and bring a cheap copy on stage. How many Lucille's
(sp) do you suppose BB King has?

Father Haskell wrote:
> On Aug 27, 1:01 am, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote:
>>
>>> basilisk wrote the following:
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457653052047122...
>>
>>>> basilisk
>>
>>> I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything
>>> to do with the sound?
>>
>> The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it
>> will sustain the sound.
>>
>> Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason.
>
> Sharper attack, longer wear.
>

It is worth mentioning that the amount of attention given to cutting the
wood (of a given species) counts for quite a lot too . IMO, That's the
feature that most markedly affects the price of a new instument.
Of course, a luthier's reputation for making excellent instruments may
allow the seller to charge another grand or two. Go to Elderly
Instruments for more details.

On 9/2/2011 8:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>>
>
> To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the
> administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in
> support of the search warrant:
>
> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
>
> The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn
> logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.
>
> IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".
>
> Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India
> allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high
> complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform
> commercial quality)
>
> IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian
> factories, insuring Indian jobs.
>
> IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the
> production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies
> still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of
> thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.
>
> How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these
> pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness
> in the pieces?
>
> Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be
> subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs
> lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8"
> thicker than it's supposed to be?

I think the answer depends on their intent. If there was an intent
to "defraud", then they should be held accountable. Morality has nothing
to do with it (if you believe in law).

>
> What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect
> the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.
>
> And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well,
> at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".
>
> Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
> political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
> politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.
>
> Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be
> no problem.
>
> That is what this is about!!
>

On 9/2/2011 8:00 AM, Swingman wrote:

> What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect
> the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.

> Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
> political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
> politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.

So what it really boils down to the Obama regime finding an excuse to
use the government, any government, to try and destroy whomever
disagrees with your socialist agenda.

--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 9/2/2011 9:12 AM, m II wrote:

> I guess we will all just buy Fender guitars, from now on, where they are
> more honest and not smugglers.

Or you could buy a Martin. They use the same damned wood but contribute
to the democratic party, so armed hatchet men aren't sent to in force
Indian law.

--
Jack
Got Change: The Individual =======> The Collective!
http://jbstein.com

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:18:25 -0500, basilisk <[email protected]>
wrote:

>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

It's a good thing our gov't is punishing only the worst of the
lawbreakers, isn't it?

Muckin' Faroons.

Ayup, I believe we can prune about 75% of the agencies off the roles
of the gov't and still be able (BETTER able) to protect our shores and
(BETTER) feed, house, and educate our citizens. Cut the FAT!

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

basilisk wrote:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>

It's even worse:

"[WASHINGTON] Today's uncovering of secret multi-agency program for shipping
illegal Gibson guitars to Mexican drug cartels left red-faced officials of
the U.S. Department of Justice scrambling for an explanation amid angry
calls for a Congressional investigation...

"Responding to a Freedom of Information Act request, Justice Department
officials admitted that the guitars were part of a complicated sting program
know as "Operation Fast and Fretless," ostensibly designed to stem traffic
of illegal guitars and amplifiers between the U.S. and Mexico. The
multi-agency program - involving Justice, ICE, TSA, EPA, IRS, FDA, Fish &
Wildlife, USDA, and the Bureau of Whiskey, Groupies & Hotel Rooms -
reportedly encourage border area pawn shops to sell the guitars to known
drug kingpins."

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html

On 8/30/2011 2:37 PM, DGDevin wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>> Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the
>> east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being
>> made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for
>> quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding.
>
> There are whole guitars being made of wood that has been submerged in
> swamps for thousands of years.
>
> http://www.guitars.co.nz/ancient_story.html

Isn't the method of delivery of wood in Cremona (via waterborne rafts of
same) also suspected as one of the reasons for the tone of the early
18th century violin makers of the area, a la Stradivarius?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination,
> followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business.

No doubt there is a lot of hype, and a lot of self-delusion when it comes to
vintage instruments and vintage components of instruments and/or components
made of rare materials. As you say, most famous players sound the same
whether they're playing an instrument delivered in an armored car or one
that came from the flea market. Which is not to say it is *all* smoke and
mirrors, but whenever people convince themselves that something made of
unobtainium is waaaay better sure as hell somebody will make a pile of money
providing the unobtainium version.

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 07:00:53 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html
>
>To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the
>administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in
>support of the search warrant:
>
>http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
>
>The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn
>logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.
>
>IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".
>
>Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India
>allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high
>complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform
>commercial quality)
>
>IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian
>factories, insuring Indian jobs.
>
>IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the
>production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies
>still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of
>thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.

That absolutely sucks.


>How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these
>pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness
>in the pieces?

Most.


>Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be
>subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs
>lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8"
>thicker than it's supposed to be?

Especially when Gibson probably didn't WANT the thicker stock because
it would have to be sanded/planed down, anyway.


>What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect
>the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.
>
>And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well,
>at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".
>
>Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
>political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
>politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.

Uh, oh!


>Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be
>no problem.
>
>That is what this is about!!

Suckage. It's nasty actions like these, by American bureaucrats, which
make the climate for offshoring a whole lot more tenable. Fukkemall.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the
administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in
support of the search warrant:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn
logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.

IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".

Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India
allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high
complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform
commercial quality)

IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian
factories, insuring Indian jobs.

IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the
production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies
still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of
thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.

How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these
pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness
in the pieces?

Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be
subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs
lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8"
thicker than it's supposed to be?

What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect
the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.

And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well,
at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".

Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current
political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican
politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.

Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be
no problem.

That is what this is about!!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
news:88ae7cb6-c091-40d4-8f22-bd0ac4cf70d3@n35g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

> Banjo bridges are easy to replace, so that's the
> first place someone will try to upgrade the sound.
> Practicing might do them better.

I once heard a young guitar student ask his teacher what should be the first
electronic gadget he should buy to sound better. The teacher told him to
use the money for a case of strings and wear them out practicing.

On 9/2/2011 1:14 PM, DGDevin wrote:

> it impacts companies in your own nation. The notion that for some reason
> the Obama administration if obsessed with the idea of protecting jobs in
> India just as part of their general wickedness is so laughably childish
> that anyone promoting it ends up looking like a clown.

Be glad to discuss it with you, but WITHOUT the ad hominen bullshit.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)