Existing Stain on Oak

On 5/18/2012 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>
>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>
>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>
>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>>
>
> I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
> I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner before
> dyes...
> <http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>
>
>
>

I have never use a prestain conditioner. How do "you" apply it?

On 5/18/2012 8:38 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> And one more thing, Leon, did you wipe it or spray it on?
> Have you ever sprayed it?
>
> I am working on a maple set right now, and have been playing with a
> bunch of different stains. I am interested in what you used.



I always wipe the stains on and wipe off the excess. I have never sprayed.

The two tone pantry has an oil based gel varnish on it, I used "no
longer available" Lawrence Mcfadden gel varnish. I am how switching
over to Old Masters gel varnish. It requires being wiped down two times
after application between coats but provides a great finish.

On 5/17/2012 9:04 PM, Rich wrote:
> basilisk wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:14:20 -0700, Rich wrote:
>>
>>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>>> on. Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's
>>> Show look. I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java
>>> Gel Stain or Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and
>>> drawer fronts to match.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>>> oak?
>>>
>>> Thanks in Advance
>>
>> Tight grain? On oak?
>> Might be hard to get the urethane out of the pores but if you manage that
>> and sand to bare wood, it should turn out great.
>>
>> basilisk
>
> Actually now that I think of it Oak is a pretty loose grain. Not looking
> forward to sanding the crown though. The face frames and sides shouldn't be
> that big a deal but all those curvy sections suck.
>

You might consider one of those environmentally friendly finish
removers. Some of they work pretty well.

On 5/17/2012 8:55 PM, Rich wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2012 8:14 PM, Rich wrote:
>>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>>> on. Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's Show
>>> look. I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java Gel
>>> Stain or Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and drawer
>>> fronts to match.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>>> oak?
>>>
>>> Thanks in Advance
>>>
>>
>> About 6 months ago I went through this.
>>
>> We live in a new home and the kitchen cabinets are actually maple with
>> an espresso stain. First glance they appear black but are really a dark
>> dark brown.
>>
>> Anyway I built a large white oak pantry with natural and dark brown
>> stained wood to match the color of our existing cabinets.
>>
>> I tried the normal oil based espresso stains and gel stains. They
>> simply did not darken the wood to anywhere close to what our kitchen
>> cabinets were.
>>
>> The solution for me was to use General Finishes water based DYE stain.
>> Only then did I get the "DARK" color.
>>
>>
>> Experiment on scraps.
> I used General Finishes Java Gel Stain. Actually after a few coats of the
> Gel it looks pretty good. I'm now wondering what will happen with the new
> doors and fronts. I do think the hardest part is getting the urethane out of
> the pours of the oak in order to get the gel to penetrate the grain.

Varnish a scrap and then sand it and stain over it. Yo may not need to
get all of the finish out of the pores. And with a gel maybe less likely.

>
> The Dye Stains are the powder dyes or are you getting the dye in a can. I
> may give it a try if it takes less time and only one coat.

Yes, General finishes has it ready to go.

http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes/waterbase-wood-dye-stains

One application is all you should need for a very dark finish. I used
"Dark Brown"

Here is the result of the Dark Brown, All wood is white oak, some
natural and some obviously stained with the Dark Brown dye.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6485170313/in/photostream/lightbox/


Keep in mind that the water based stain dye will raise the grain so you
may want to finish sand, dampen the surface with water and resand before
applying the stain. Again, test on scraps.


Beyond that the dye is extremely easy to deal with but use plenty of
tarps to protect against drips, it is applying water, drips are
inevitable, and wear gloves, it is a dye.

And one more thing, Leon, did you wipe it or spray it on?
Have you ever sprayed it?

I am working on a maple set right now, and have been playing with a
bunch of different stains. I am interested in what you used.

On 5/18/2012 9:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Leon,
>
> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>
> On 5/17/2012 9:02 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/16/2012 8:14 PM, Rich wrote:
>>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>>> on.
>>> Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's Show
>>> look.
>>> I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java Gel
>>> Stain or
>>> Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and drawer fronts to
>>> match.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>>> oak?
>>>
>>> Thanks in Advance
>>>
>>
>> About 6 months ago I went through this.
>>
>> We live in a new home and the kitchen cabinets are actually maple with
>> an espresso stain. First glance they appear black but are really a dark
>> dark brown.
>>
>> Anyway I built a large white oak pantry with natural and dark brown
>> stained wood to match the color of our existing cabinets.
>>
>> I tried the normal oil based espresso stains and gel stains. They simply
>> did not darken the wood to anywhere close to what our kitchen cabinets
>> were.
>>
>> The solution for me was to use General Finishes water based DYE stain.
>> Only then did I get the "DARK" color.
>>
>>
>> Experiment on scraps.

Leon,

did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?

On 5/17/2012 9:02 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 8:14 PM, Rich wrote:
>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>> on.
>> Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's Show
>> look.
>> I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java Gel Stain or
>> Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and drawer fronts to
>> match.
>>
>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>> oak?
>>
>> Thanks in Advance
>>
>
> About 6 months ago I went through this.
>
> We live in a new home and the kitchen cabinets are actually maple with
> an espresso stain. First glance they appear black but are really a dark
> dark brown.
>
> Anyway I built a large white oak pantry with natural and dark brown
> stained wood to match the color of our existing cabinets.
>
> I tried the normal oil based espresso stains and gel stains. They simply
> did not darken the wood to anywhere close to what our kitchen cabinets
> were.
>
> The solution for me was to use General Finishes water based DYE stain.
> Only then did I get the "DARK" color.
>
>
> Experiment on scraps.

Leon wrote:

> On 5/16/2012 8:14 PM, Rich wrote:
>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>> on. Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's Show
>> look. I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java Gel
>> Stain or Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and drawer
>> fronts to match.
>>
>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>> oak?
>>
>> Thanks in Advance
>>
>
> About 6 months ago I went through this.
>
> We live in a new home and the kitchen cabinets are actually maple with
> an espresso stain. First glance they appear black but are really a dark
> dark brown.
>
> Anyway I built a large white oak pantry with natural and dark brown
> stained wood to match the color of our existing cabinets.
>
> I tried the normal oil based espresso stains and gel stains. They
> simply did not darken the wood to anywhere close to what our kitchen
> cabinets were.
>
> The solution for me was to use General Finishes water based DYE stain.
> Only then did I get the "DARK" color.
>
>
> Experiment on scraps.
I used General Finishes Java Gel Stain. Actually after a few coats of the
Gel it looks pretty good. I'm now wondering what will happen with the new
doors and fronts. I do think the hardest part is getting the urethane out of
the pours of the oak in order to get the gel to penetrate the grain.

The Dye Stains are the powder dyes or are you getting the dye in a can. I
may give it a try if it takes less time and only one coat.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

basilisk wrote:

> On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:14:20 -0700, Rich wrote:
>
>> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
>> on. Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's
>> Show look. I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java
>> Gel Stain or Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and
>> drawer fronts to match.
>>
>> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
>> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
>> oak?
>>
>> Thanks in Advance
>
> Tight grain? On oak?
> Might be hard to get the urethane out of the pores but if you manage that
> and sand to bare wood, it should turn out great.
>
> basilisk

Actually now that I think of it Oak is a pretty loose grain. Not looking
forward to sanding the crown though. The face frames and sides shouldn't be
that big a deal but all those curvy sections suck.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>
> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>
> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>

I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner before
dyes...
<http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/18/12 10:55 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/18/2012 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>
>>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>>
>>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>>
>>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>>>
>>
>> I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
>> I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner before
>> dyes...
>> <http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>
>>
>
> I have never use a prestain conditioner. How do "you" apply it?

I don't remember exactly how I did, but I do remember calling their
customer service and asking for tips. They said that the directions on
the can were the only "tips" they'd have.
IIRC, I just applied and wiped. I may have used a foam brush to
liberally apply it, then good old t-shirt rags to wipe off.

Here's a pic of the results on either beech or birch, which will blotch
like maple. I'll let you judge... I don't know, maybe it'd still
blotchy, I can't tell. :-)

http://xrl.us/blotchornot


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/18/12 2:41 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/18/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/18/12 10:55 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2012 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>>>>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
>>>> I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner before
>>>> dyes...
>>>> <http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have never use a prestain conditioner. How do "you" apply it?
>>
>> I don't remember exactly how I did, but I do remember calling their
>> customer service and asking for tips. They said that the directions on
>> the can were the only "tips" they'd have.
>> IIRC, I just applied and wiped. I may have used a foam brush to
>> liberally apply it, then good old t-shirt rags to wipe off.
>>
>> Here's a pic of the results on either beech or birch, which will blotch
>> like maple. I'll let you judge... I don't know, maybe it'd still
>> blotchy, I can't tell. :-)
>>
>> http://xrl.us/blotchornot
>>
>>
>
> Looks good to me. I thought I was looking a Padauk.


I'll take that as a great compliment, because that's exactly what we
were going for.

The client said, "orange" and I asked him to get more specific by
searching the web and looking at the local Woodcraft for the color he
wanted. He ended up telling me he loved the look of Padauk and asked if
we could use it. When I told him how much it costs, we decided to try to
color/grain match a cheaper wood. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:14:20 -0700, Rich wrote:

> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts
> on. Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's
> Show look. I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java
> Gel Stain or Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and
> drawer fronts to match.
>
> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of
> oak?
>
> Thanks in Advance

Tight grain? On oak?
Might be hard to get the urethane out of the pores but if you manage that
and sand to bare wood, it should turn out great.

basilisk



--
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse

On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:

> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?

Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.

Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
blotchyness under the best of circumstances.

That said, that stained maple, blotchy "look" seems to be an "in thing"
right now ... many kitchen and furniture magazines and catalogs seem to
be featuring it lately.

When this maple kitchen was refinished last month on a home being put
back on the market (a mix of old and new kitchen cabinets, the old,
existing cabinets being previously finished in a typical natural maple
look), we basically went for the look and colors that are the "in thing"
in the local market, for obvious reasons:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5743880921599056690

We used an off the shelf stain, mixed with a dye and rubbed on, to get
this particular color to complement both the stone work, and the wooden
floors.

In order to get the old and new to match, we most definitely had to take
the existing cabinets back to bare wood to get a consistent finish from
cabinet to cabinet.

Formula: 50% Dark Walnut; 50% English Chestnut; and a toner in the
lacquer topcoat that matched the color of the Dark Walnut.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Nice, very even...

> Here's a pic of the results on either beech or birch, which will blotch
> like maple. I'll let you judge... I don't know, maybe it'd still
> blotchy, I can't tell. :-)
>
> http://xrl.us/blotchornot
>
>

On 5/18/2012 11:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>
> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>
> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.

Yea I know, that's why when Leon said he used it on maple I was curious
of this was the magic bullet. I don't like the new blotchy look. I like
smooth and classic.

That said, I always like dyes over stains, but again prefer natural wood
to color usually. I just don't want the maple look. Tired of maple...
> Formula: 50% Dark Walnut; 50% English Chestnut; and a toner in the
> lacquer topcoat that matched the color of the Dark Walnut.
>

Obviously not a minwax dark walnut which is usually blah... Dark Walnut
in minwax looks nothing like real walnut.

On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Leon,
>
> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?


Not at all but I did "apply liberally", it almost pooled on the top as I
applied but I immediately wiped the excess off each section at a time.
Basically the stuff is so thin that it penetrates immediately so you
need to apply enough so that you get good coverage. Not complicated, it
takes 4~10 seconds to understand how much to apply.

Now General Finishes also makes a "regular" water based stain which is
much thicker by comparison and is a bit easier to deal with and raises
the grain a bit less.


http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes/water-base-wood-stains

And the results here with the "non dye" water based stain.
I was going for a nonformal country look here. My grandmother pained
these 50 years ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7199868900/in/photostream/lightbox/

On 5/16/2012 8:14 PM, Rich wrote:
> Have some cabinets that I'm replacing the Cab. Doors and Drawer Fronts on.
> Cabinets and Faceframes are Oak stained and urathaned, That 70's Show look.
> I'd like to stain the faceframes and side panels with a Java Gel Stain or
> Expresso Gel, darker look. Then Gel the new doors and drawer fronts to
> match.
>
> I'm assuming I need to strip the urathane, but how do you deal with the
> existing stain? Or will mulitple coats of gel cover the tight grain of oak?
>
> Thanks in Advance
>

About 6 months ago I went through this.

We live in a new home and the kitchen cabinets are actually maple with
an espresso stain. First glance they appear black but are really a dark
dark brown.

Anyway I built a large white oak pantry with natural and dark brown
stained wood to match the color of our existing cabinets.

I tried the normal oil based espresso stains and gel stains. They
simply did not darken the wood to anywhere close to what our kitchen
cabinets were.

The solution for me was to use General Finishes water based DYE stain.
Only then did I get the "DARK" color.


Experiment on scraps.

On 5/18/2012 3:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/18/12 2:41 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/18/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/18/12 10:55 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2012 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>>>>>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
>>>>> I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner
>>>>> before
>>>>> dyes...
>>>>> <http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have never use a prestain conditioner. How do "you" apply it?
>>>
>>> I don't remember exactly how I did, but I do remember calling their
>>> customer service and asking for tips. They said that the directions on
>>> the can were the only "tips" they'd have.
>>> IIRC, I just applied and wiped. I may have used a foam brush to
>>> liberally apply it, then good old t-shirt rags to wipe off.
>>>
>>> Here's a pic of the results on either beech or birch, which will blotch
>>> like maple. I'll let you judge... I don't know, maybe it'd still
>>> blotchy, I can't tell. :-)
>>>
>>> http://xrl.us/blotchornot
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Looks good to me. I thought I was looking a Padauk.
>
>
> I'll take that as a great compliment, because that's exactly what we
> were going for.

Compliment intended

>
> The client said, "orange" and I asked him to get more specific by
> searching the web and looking at the local Woodcraft for the color he
> wanted. He ended up telling me he loved the look of Padauk and asked if
> we could use it. When I told him how much it costs, we decided to try to
> color/grain match a cheaper wood. :-)
>
>

On 5/18/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/18/12 10:55 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/18/2012 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/18/12 10:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>>>
>>>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>>>
>>>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>>>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm joining this discussion late, so pardon the tangent....
>>> I've had pretty good results by using this pre-stain conditioner before
>>> dyes...
>>> <http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I have never use a prestain conditioner. How do "you" apply it?
>
> I don't remember exactly how I did, but I do remember calling their
> customer service and asking for tips. They said that the directions on
> the can were the only "tips" they'd have.
> IIRC, I just applied and wiped. I may have used a foam brush to
> liberally apply it, then good old t-shirt rags to wipe off.
>
> Here's a pic of the results on either beech or birch, which will blotch
> like maple. I'll let you judge... I don't know, maybe it'd still
> blotchy, I can't tell. :-)
>
> http://xrl.us/blotchornot
>
>

Looks good to me. I thought I was looking a Padauk.

On 5/18/2012 1:12 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>
> On 5/18/2012 11:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 5/18/2012 8:34 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>
>>> did you get splotchy results with that dye stain?
>>
>> Oak should not give you a blotchy results as a rule.
>>
>> Maple certainly will, and it is notoriously difficult to control the
>> blotchyness under the best of circumstances.
>
> Yea I know, that's why when Leon said he used it on maple I was curious
> of this was the magic bullet. I don't like the new blotchy look. I like
> smooth and classic.

No,no no no I did not use it on maple, I used it on white oak trying to
match espresso on existing new maple cabinets. Just to be clear.






>
> That said, I always like dyes over stains, but again prefer natural wood
> to color usually. I just don't want the maple look. Tired of maple...
>> Formula: 50% Dark Walnut; 50% English Chestnut; and a toner in the
>> lacquer topcoat that matched the color of the Dark Walnut.
>>
>
> Obviously not a minwax dark walnut which is usually blah... Dark Walnut
> in minwax looks nothing like real walnut.