Safe Stop

> If you are sitting watching TV and getting hit on the head with a hammer,
> do you put on an "transit tested" and approved helmet or do you stop the
> hammer from hitting you?
>

Politicians Answer : Um, yes.

Engineer's Answer : How heavy is the hammer?

Wrecker's Answer : Is it a Klown Hammer?

Troll Answer : Is it grounded?

Lawyers Answer: Well, yes and no, depending on who is swinging the hammer

SWMBO's answer : He would hit the remote control to see if it stopped that
strange feeling in his head.

Your question is too non-specific sir.

Regards
Mike

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:56:31 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:AOfWh.105124$aG1.85718@pd7urf3no...
>>>
>> I have been away for a couple of years due to illness. I am now getting
>> back in to woodworking.
>>
>> Believe it or not, this is the first I have heard of this saw. I have been
>> researching it as my old Rockwell cabinet saw has about had it. My
>> preference would be a Unisaw, but this is really getting my interest.
>>
>> thks for the help
>> wayne
>>
>>
>
>Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be. Delta was having QC
>problems with the saw.......

Not true. Quote your source. We've been through this before, twice.


and their have been many reports of new Unisaws
>arriving with broken trunions.

True, quite some time ago. Any damaged units were replaced under
warranty. Most discovered at the distributor, did not go to the
customer. Has nothing to do with the quality of a unit delivered in
good shape.

For a while Delta blamed the shipping
>company.

For very good reason. Trunions were breaking from a specific tip over
which generally happened on shipping docks during LTL shipment.


Either way, Jet, Grizzly and Powermatic would probably be equal
>or better alternatives. FIY.


Today's Unisaw is equal in design to any Unisaw going back to the mid
eighties. What has changed is the location of assembly, the fact that
some of the machined grey iron is from the orient and the fact that
the motor is WEG from Brazil. Because of this I would prefer a
pre-2003 unit, however, I wouldn't say that the WEG motor is less
powerful, efficient, or reliable than the Chinese motors used on most
imported saws. I would simply prefer Marathon. And of course PM66 is
excepted, not in the same class with say, Grizzzly and by design
different type of trunion/yoke assembly

>
>The SawStop is probably be a better alternative but will cost more. The
>SawStop has been around for 5 or 6 years and has been in production and for
>sale for 2 or 3 years. "Some" early models were exhibiting false triggers
>however those that reported this have also indicated that the SawStop people
>worked with them to resolve the problem. One of the problems was that a one
>of the users in a shop of users caused false triggers because of the
>electronic watch that he was wearing IIRC. Apparently some type of diode
>was added to the electrical circuit to solve the problem, IIRC it was also
>reported by the same owner that the saw triggered again with the same user
>but this time it saved a trip to the hospital.
>One of the most common questions about the saw concerning the ability to
>trigger is if the saw will trigger with the power off. What if the
>electricity goes off and the lights go out while sawing? Apparently the saw
>still has the ability to trigger if the power is lost or if you turn the
>power swath off and the blade is still spinning.
>

On Apr 21, 4:00 pm, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Man, this is a tough crowd.
>
> Anyways, thanks everyone for your opinions. I am going to explore it, along
> with Delta and a couple of others. SWMBO is getting real concerned with my
> old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.
>
> Wayne

Not a tough crowd at all. Sometimes it just seems to be a lot of
bitchy, whining housewives. They will write on an one about how
someone wastes their time, how it annoys them, and how stupid and
inconsiderate some people can be. It would have been easier (although
nowhere near as much fun) to simply write a valid response addressing
the question.

OR BETER YET, IGNORE THE QUESTIONS ALTOGETHER. That maybe a little
more neanderthal man than renaissance, so that could be the problem
here.

Example: SO says, "you know what happened today? One of the girls
asked me this question today that I have answered a million times. I
swear to God if she asks me one more time I will fucking scream!"

Neaderthal response (me): Uh - huh.

That't it. Sad, huh?

Renaissance man: OMG... I can't believe she asked that again! You
would think that as many times as we have gone over that she would
have picked it up, of no other way than osmosis! That is so
stupid.... she is so stupid.... OMG.... doesn't she realize how much
time she wastes when she does that? Why in my case, being the kind
of self reliant person I am, I never ask any questions on a whim!
Never... in fact (just add another 20 minutes of pointless bitching
here, the relelvance and value understood only between renaissance men
and typical women).

This is a public forum, a like all kinds of other breaches of accepted
protocol some see or experience in public, no need to freak out. Do
what most do best - turn around and walk away.

To me, the question has to be asked: Why is ignoring a post you find
distasteful so difficult?

I understand that many feel that even though a public forum, it should
be run the way THEY want it, the RIGHT way, although some masquerade
as it simply being an attempt to show consideration for all. That
kind of pointless badgering and meaness makes some of the more petty
folks feel important. And maybe even like their opinion counts
somewhere if they see it in writing.

I say post away with all questions big and small, important and dumb,
and hope that one day people will learn which ones to respond to after
reading. The helpful guys will do one of two things: provide some
advice, or put the OP in the right direction by giving them some hints
on where to find pertinent information.

Now the others in a way are more entertaining to me. They respond with
the classic "why when I did that I did this or that, or looked here or
there" and obviously are quite proud of themselves for figuring that
out. But sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes it comes off as
"hey, I'm so GD stoopid >> I<< figured out how to do it, so surely you
can do the same".

Fun group.

Get on with some more ass kickin'.

Robert

On Apr 21, 7:29 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote innews:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>
> > why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> > Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
> > some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> > I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> > thank you
> > wayne
>
> The subject has been discussed to death.
> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like to
> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their own
> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>
> --
> Best regards
> Han
> email address is invalid

> Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>

Depends....what does a hand cost these days?

People are always willing to pay more for safety features AFTER the
accident.

TMT

On Apr 21, 7:03 am, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:
> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > This again? Try Google.
>
> > "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no...
> >>http://www.sawstop.com/
>
> >> Is this for real?
> >> has anyone actually used one?
> >> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
> >> features?
>
> >> wayne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Welcome back to a great hobby.

Ignore the jerks...it is the price of admission.

TMT

On Apr 23, 1:35 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Frank, makes no difference whether you are right or >wrong, you are
> trying to piss up wind.
>
> Lew

Buy that man a beer. Kinda cut through all the crap, there. Nicely
said, Lew.

Robert

Leon wrote:

>>>>has anyone actually used one?
>=20
> Yes.=A0=A0Several=A0posters=A0to=A0this=A0group=A0own=A0the=A0TS=A0an=
d=A0=A0LeeValley=A0uses=A0them=A0in
> their stores.

As does Woodcraft. And the safety feature was tested (inadvertently) b=
y a
student in one of our classes - worked great, only a bandaid was needed=
.

They're getting very popular with commercial sites and schools. A loca=
l large
cabinet shop has 15-20 of them and claims to have already saved several=

fingers.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

Wayne J. wrote:

> am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.

Check out Powermatic and General as well.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Wayne J. wrote:

> 9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975). Good saw. Came with
> two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had the ability to be
> placed so that the extensions were all on one side or one on each side of
> the blade. Putting them all the way to the right gives you a 48" rip
> setting. It was the only saw up here that did that other then the Unisaw
> back then.

That's relatively new Wayne. Did you see my post about the Delta 1160 I
bought at an estate sale?

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Wayne J. wrote:
>
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>> That's relatively new Wayne. Did you see my post about the Delta 1160 I
>> bought at an estate sale?
>
> Nope, probably while I was gone. I don't know if I have ever seen one. I am
> thinking hard, but that rally hurts. I am going to go look through my old
> manuals.
>
> I love the old tools. It is nice to rebuild one and show it off later.
>

Agreed. I've got a fair number of old hand tools, but the 1160 is my first
old power tool. I hope I'm not getting addicted :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Lew Hodgett wrote:

> As an observer of this thread, one thing is obvious.
>
> Frank, makes no difference whether you are right or wrong, you are
> trying to piss up wind.
>
> Lew

But pissing upwind has its place......we have way too many half truths
accepted as fact...and often a shortage of critical or logical
thinking.....In this case Franks unique insider view sheds a interesting
light on a likely errant view..... Even better it is rather interesting to
see a glimpse of a companies quality control and/or trouble shooting.....Rod

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>http://www.sawstop.com/
>>
>>Is this for real?
>>has anyone actually used one?
>>how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>features?
>
> Here we go again...
>
> SawStop has been discussed _to_death_ on this newsgroup. Please do a
> Google
> Groups search to find the previous discussions (and there have been MANY).
> If,
> after reading all that, you still have any questions, then come back with
> them.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
few questions

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
>> few questions
>
> You asked one dumb question and posted a link. Periodically, the same
> simple question gets posted on other (non woodworking) newsgroups too.
> Seems to be an underground advertising medium.

Dumb to you, a civil question to me.

again, sorry I bothered you.

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:59:17 GMT, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Wayne J. wrote:
>>
>>> SWMBO is getting real concerned with my old saw, so maybe she will let me
>>> spring for a "safer" saw.
>>
>> So what is existing saw?
>>
>> Lew
>
>9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975). Good saw. Came with
>two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had the ability to be
>placed so that the extensions were all on one side or one on each side of
>the blade. Putting them all the way to the right gives you a 48" rip
>setting. It was the only saw up here that did that other then the Unisaw
>back then.
>
>Problem is it only uses round rails, so I can't put a Beismeyer on it.
>(crud).
>
Enlighten me. I'm not familiar with that saw. Does it not have a
flat table front edge? I'm curious about why a biese won't mount.
All the old saws used round rails with special spacing shoulder bolts
assemblies that had a radiused section to mount the rail. But, for
most saws, to mount a Biese the only requirement was to remove the
guide rail and mount the flat rail directly to the front edge.



>It is powered by a 220VAC 1.5 HP Marathon motor off of a AB paddle starter.
>The guts of the saw are identical to the 10" contractor saws. The cabinet,
>handwheels and top were different.
>
>Wayne
>

In article <q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no>, Wayne J. <[email protected]>
wrote:

> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.

But you indicated none of that in your original post. There was no sign
you had done any research and you didn't ask for opinions.

--
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
- Margaret Thatcher

Might look at Grizzly 1023 series too. I don't know what shipping into
Canada costs but it is in a real similar class as the Unisaw and Jet Cabinet
saws.

RonB

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MCnWh.111476$DE1.21531@pd7urf2no...
>
> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>>
>>> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>>>
>>> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
>>> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>>>
>>> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>>>
>>> thank you
>>> wayne
>>>
>> The subject has been discussed to death.
>> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like
>> to
>> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
>> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their own
>> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
>> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>> Han
>> email address is invalid
>
> thanks Han.
>
> I am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.
>
> I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.
>
> thks
> Wayne
>
>

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no...
> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> This again? Try Google.
>>
>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no...
>>> http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>
>>> Is this for real?
>>> has anyone actually used one?
>>> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>> features?
>>>
>>> wayne
>>>
>>>


Man, this is a tough crowd.

Anyways, thanks everyone for your opinions. I am going to explore it, along
with Delta and a couple of others. SWMBO is getting real concerned with my
old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.

Wayne

> "Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
>> problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
>> shippers.


It has nothing to do with LTL shippers, but everything to do with inadequate
packaging or poor design. When you have damage getting a product to the
customer, you must change one or both.

I had a customer that tried to solve a very expensive breakage problem with
a $25 package when what they really needed was a 5¢ screw to hold a power
supply. This sort of thing happens all the time. Once the problem is
recognized, just fix it in the most simple manner.

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4YuWh.113318$6m4.29316@pd7urf1no...
>
>
> Man, this is a tough crowd.

Ywah, it can be. Lots of us like to yank yank chains. ;~)

Please do stick around as we can use some input from the tool guys with
knowledge of the products.

>
> Anyways, thanks everyone for your opinions. I am going to explore it,
> along with Delta and a couple of others. SWMBO is getting real concerned
> with my old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.

And now that I know that you are very familiar with the Unisaw, I can whole
heartedly recommend you continue to consider it. There should be no
surprises.
If you would consider the little less traditional TS's take a look at the
Laguna's also. They are in the PM66 and Saw Stop price range. Still the
SawStop should prevent serious injury.

>
> My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
> newsgroup..........

Amen. Actually, I though that was why we hang out in theses places.

To help and to learn.

RonB

Wayne J. wrote:
> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne

Wayne, let me give you a helpful answer. This is the result
line from an advanced google search on "sawstop":

Results 1 - 10 of 685 for "sawstop" group:rec.woodworking

Would you like for us to repeat all of the previous posts, or
just the ones that pertain to what you are asking? Wouldn't
it be easier just to look at the 685 previous posts on the
subject in this NG, then if there is something that has not
already been covered, you could ask about that?

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Wayne J. wrote:

> SWMBO is getting real concerned with my
> old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.

So what is existing saw?

Lew

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1IeWh.103413$6m4.102563@pd7urf1no...
>>
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>>
>>>>Is this for real?
>>>>has anyone actually used one?
>>>>how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>>>features?
>>>
>>> Here we go again...
>>>
>>> SawStop has been discussed _to_death_ on this newsgroup. Please do a
>>> Google
>>> Groups search to find the previous discussions (and there have been
>>> MANY). If,
>>> after reading all that, you still have any questions, then come back
>>> with
>>> them.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>>>
>>> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>>
>> sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
>> few questions
>>
> Wayne, no need to apologize.
> The question has come up many times, so most people will just ignore you
> since you could have found out the information by googling if you really
> wanted to know.
> Others like to be helpful and will respond because they enjoy it.
> And then there is Doug... He has nothing better to do than respond, but
> instead of being helpful, he is nasty. I don't even like to think about
> what he is compensating for.
>
>
I have been away for a couple of years due to illness. I am now getting back
in to woodworking.

Believe it or not, this is the first I have heard of this saw. I have been
researching it as my old Rockwell cabinet saw has about had it. My
preference would be a Unisaw, but this is really getting my interest.

thks for the help
wayne

In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>http://www.sawstop.com/
>
>Is this for real?
>has anyone actually used one?
>how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>features?

Here we go again...

SawStop has been discussed _to_death_ on this newsgroup. Please do a Google
Groups search to find the previous discussions (and there have been MANY). If,
after reading all that, you still have any questions, then come back with
them.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
>> newsgroup..........
>
> Amen. Actually, I though that was why we hang out in theses places.
>
> To help and to learn.
>
> RonB
>

Precicely.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:4YuWh.113318$6m4.29316@pd7urf1no...
>>
>>
>> Man, this is a tough crowd.
>
> Ywah, it can be. Lots of us like to yank yank chains. ;~)
>
> Please do stick around as we can use some input from the tool guys with
> knowledge of the products.
>
>>
>> Anyways, thanks everyone for your opinions. I am going to explore it,
>> along with Delta and a couple of others. SWMBO is getting real concerned
>> with my old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.
>
> And now that I know that you are very familiar with the Unisaw, I can
> whole heartedly recommend you continue to consider it. There should be no
> surprises.
> If you would consider the little less traditional TS's take a look at the
> Laguna's also. They are in the PM66 and Saw Stop price range. Still the
> SawStop should prevent serious injury.
I will stick around, thanks Leon.

I am not familiar with Laguna here in Canada, I will have to go see them at
the next show.

I searched them on line and I like what I see so far.

They ship to Coguitlam BC at the end of each month for customer pick up.
That isn't a stretch to go and pick one up if I order it.

wayne

In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug,
>
> Mate, I am relaxed. I went to some length to mention a number of times
>my respect for the group and posters - and I did not intend at all that you
>take my blathering as a personal attack. It was an attack of the concept.
>I unreservedly apologise if it came across otherwise.
>
>Mike

Thanks, Mike, no prob. If you're ever in the States, and passing through
Indianapolis, look me up.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Ups, I have no issue with you having a different opinion to me - I am just
> upset that you didn't answer my original question about grounding dust
> collection systems...

You can easily find that information on the Prodigy or CompuServe discussion
groups. Works best if you have a fast 1200 baud modem.

"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>>
>>>
>>
>>Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>>choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be. Delta was having QC
>>problems with the saw.......
>
> Not true. Quote your source. We've been through this before, twice.

Texas Tool Traders. They told me this when I was compairing a Unisaw to a
Jet. The Unisaw sat on the show room floor with a broken trunion. A Delta
rep e-mailed me direct concerning this issue in so much that Texas Tool
traders could not repair the saw because of a trunion BO status. The rep
assured me that he would look into resolving the matter.



>
> and their have been many reports of new Unisaws
>>arriving with broken trunions.
>
> True, quite some time ago. Any damaged units were replaced under
> warranty. Most discovered at the distributor, did not go to the
> customer. Has nothing to do with the quality of a unit delivered in
> good shape.

The broken trunion on the saw that I saw was about 6 years ago.

Frank normally I would agree. But, how is it that the brand saw that
arrives damaged is the Delta Unisaw? I read on this news group from a
respected poster that Delta later admitted that the trunions were being
improperly torqued. A DAGS should show you that comment if you are
interested.
Regardless, if a particular brand tool is having a problem with
transportation or manufacturing, that is a QC problem and it is that brands
problem until the problem is resolved.

To be fair, there have been many reports of Grizzlys being delivered tipped
over and up side down. Oddly many reportedly had only superficial damage.

Perhaps Delta would not be in the shape it is in today had corporate greed
not entered into the equasion and continued to deliver a compeditive quality
product.

I really have nothing to gain one way or the other concerning the problems
Delta is having or has had. I own and have owned a few Delta tools and
strongly considered the Unisaw to be my first choice when buying 6 or 7
years ago but then I went to the local dealer and listened to his comments,
the reps comments, and the posts on this group, and then directly compared
the Unisaw to the Jet cabinet saw, well you get the picture.

I am not saying that the Unisaw is a bad choice, again I am only saying that
the Unisaw is not what it used to be and the QC has not been up to par with
the competition.


> For a while Delta blamed the shipping
>>company.
>
> For very good reason. Trunions were breaking from a specific tip over
> which generally happened on shipping docks during LTL shipment.

Why were the other brand saws not being tipped over like the Deltas? Was
Delta being targeted?
This went on for a few years IIRC. Why was packageing not improved to
prevent this? QC does not stop at the factory door. Perhaps equipment
built to withstand a boat ride holds up better on the docks.

"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>
>> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>>
>> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
>> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>>
>> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>>
>> thank you
>> wayne
>>
> The subject has been discussed to death.
> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like to
> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their own
> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>
>
> --
> Best regards
> Han
> email address is invalid

thanks Han.

I am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.

I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.

thks
Wayne

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 21, 4:00 pm, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Man, this is a tough crowd.
>>
>> Anyways, thanks everyone for your opinions. I am going to explore it,
>> along
>> with Delta and a couple of others. SWMBO is getting real concerned with
>> my
>> old saw, so maybe she will let me spring for a "safer" saw.
>>
>> Wayne
>
> Not a tough crowd at all. Sometimes it just seems to be a lot of
> bitchy, whining housewives. They will write on an one about how
> someone wastes their time, how it annoys them, and how stupid and
> inconsiderate some people can be. It would have been easier (although
> nowhere near as much fun) to simply write a valid response addressing
> the question.
>
> OR BETER YET, IGNORE THE QUESTIONS ALTOGETHER. That maybe a little
> more neanderthal man than renaissance, so that could be the problem
> here.
>
> Example: SO says, "you know what happened today? One of the girls
> asked me this question today that I have answered a million times. I
> swear to God if she asks me one more time I will fucking scream!"
>
> Neaderthal response (me): Uh - huh.
>
> That't it. Sad, huh?
>
> Renaissance man: OMG... I can't believe she asked that again! You
> would think that as many times as we have gone over that she would
> have picked it up, of no other way than osmosis! That is so
> stupid.... she is so stupid.... OMG.... doesn't she realize how much
> time she wastes when she does that? Why in my case, being the kind
> of self reliant person I am, I never ask any questions on a whim!
> Never... in fact (just add another 20 minutes of pointless bitching
> here, the relelvance and value understood only between renaissance men
> and typical women).
>
> This is a public forum, a like all kinds of other breaches of accepted
> protocol some see or experience in public, no need to freak out. Do
> what most do best - turn around and walk away.
>
> To me, the question has to be asked: Why is ignoring a post you find
> distasteful so difficult?
>
> I understand that many feel that even though a public forum, it should
> be run the way THEY want it, the RIGHT way, although some masquerade
> as it simply being an attempt to show consideration for all. That
> kind of pointless badgering and meaness makes some of the more petty
> folks feel important. And maybe even like their opinion counts
> somewhere if they see it in writing.
>
> I say post away with all questions big and small, important and dumb,
> and hope that one day people will learn which ones to respond to after
> reading. The helpful guys will do one of two things: provide some
> advice, or put the OP in the right direction by giving them some hints
> on where to find pertinent information.
>
> Now the others in a way are more entertaining to me. They respond with
> the classic "why when I did that I did this or that, or looked here or
> there" and obviously are quite proud of themselves for figuring that
> out. But sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes it comes off as
> "hey, I'm so GD stoopid >> I<< figured out how to do it, so surely you
> can do the same".
>
> Fun group.
>
> Get on with some more ass kickin'.
>
> Robert
>
Thanks. Good davice . I wish I could have thought of that answer.

take care
wayne

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Doug,
>
> Deep breath in......
>
> Your suggestions that people research before they ask a question here is
> fundamentaly flawed.
>
> What makes you the sole arbiter of where one commences a search?

What makes you think that I'm attempting to set myself up as "the sole
arbiter of where one commences a search"? Get a grip, Mike, all I did
was suggest that since the SawStop has already been discussed here
numerous times, he should check Google Groups to see what's already been
said.

>Why is
> it correct that someone must search google before they use a newsgroup?
> Newsgroups pre-date Google by a looong way. What makes it correct that you
> can't come here until you have been there?????

Again -- if he wants opinions on the SawStop, the easiest way of finding
them is to look at the opinions that have already been expressed.
>
> Your position is based on YOUR view of the world, and which end of the
> chicken the bloody egg came out of.
>
> My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
> newsgroup a question that might have been asked a million times. Go to a
> pub, lean against the local bar, and ask "Who is that statue out there in
> memory of?" They don't all pipe in and say "Go to the Library mate - all the
> answers you need are there, now piss off "

And where did I tell him anything even remotely like "all the answers
you need are there, now piss off"??

Relax, have a cold beer, and calm down.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I can only assume that someone who couldn't be bothered to put in a small
> amount of time to get a quick answer feels that it's easier to use up
> someone else's time to than use their own.

Exactly.

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
> few questions

You asked one dumb question and posted a link. Periodically, the same
simple question gets posted on other (non woodworking) newsgroups too.
Seems to be an underground advertising medium.

Wayne J. wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>
>>> Is this for real?
>>> has anyone actually used one?
>>> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>> features?
>> Here we go again...
>>
>> SawStop has been discussed _to_death_ on this newsgroup. Please do a
>> Google
>> Groups search to find the previous discussions (and there have been MANY).
>> If,
>> after reading all that, you still have any questions, then come back with
>> them.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>>
>> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
> sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
> few questions
>
>
I have been using one at work for about four months now, and it is a
great saw. We all know about the nickel test, well, this saw passes the
dime test. I can stand the dime on edge with the saw stopped, turn it
on and it hardly even wiggles. I have not told my kids about the safety
feature because some would intentionally trip it to see it work. Some
of my advanced kids know about it, but I have asked them to keep it to
themselves.

Believe it or not, one of our school janitors wanted to see how it
worked and touched an allen wrench to the spinning blade and tripped it.
Ruined the blade and a cartridge. I was pissed. Another janitor told
me who did it and I confronted the dumb turd. He fessed up and bought
both out of his own pocket.

Glen

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wayne J. wrote:
>
>> 9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975). Good saw. Came
>> with
>> two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had the ability to be
>> placed so that the extensions were all on one side or one on each side of
>> the blade. Putting them all the way to the right gives you a 48" rip
>> setting. It was the only saw up here that did that other then the Unisaw
>> back then.
>
> That's relatively new Wayne. Did you see my post about the Delta 1160 I
> bought at an estate sale?
>
> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

Now I remember it. I just saw a picture at
http://owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=5788

My ex-boss had one. I liked the looks of it, I just never liked the idea of
holding my wood at an angle when it was cutting.

I love the old machines

wayne

This again? Try Google.

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no...
> http://www.sawstop.com/
>
> Is this for real?
> has anyone actually used one?
> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
> features?
>
> wayne
>
>

"Wayne J." wrote in message
> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne

Next time specifically request "civil" opinions ... while you still may not
get any, you will at least have a leg to stand on when whining.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07

An alternative is Shop Fox. They are the retail outlet version of Grizzly.
Pretty much the same machines with different looks.

RonB

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:nYzWh.113820$6m4.105988@pd7urf1no...
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Might look at Grizzly 1023 series too. I don't know what shipping into
>> Canada costs but it is in a real similar class as the Unisaw and Jet
>> Cabinet saws.
>>
>> RonB
>>
>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:MCnWh.111476$DE1.21531@pd7urf2no...
>>>
>>> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>>>>
>>>>> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>>>>>
>>>>> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
>>>>> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you
>>>>> wayne
>>>>>
>>>> The subject has been discussed to death.
>>>> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like
>>>> to
>>>> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
>>>> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their
>>>> own
>>>> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it
>>>> advertizes,
>>>> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Han
>>>> email address is invalid
>>>
>>> thanks Han.
>>>
>>> I am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
>>> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.
>>>
>>> I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.
>>>
>>> thks
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> Grizzly used to be available in Canada, but now they are not shippping to
> Canada. The good news is they have an outlet just across the border in
> Bellingham, Washington. That is very close. I will check out with Canadian
> Border Services to see if they are restricted for some reason. Probably
> CSA approval.
>
> thks
>
>

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MCnWh.111476$DE1.21531@pd7urf2no...
>
> I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.

There you go, smart idea. Advice and or actual experience, perhaps a hands
on trial would be the best answer to you questions. As indicated this has
been discussed here to some length and many dislike the company and
therefore the saw because of the way it was being introduced in the early
days. They wanted the government to require that this safety devise be
added to ALL saws. Many calimed that the saw would never make it to market
because of the lack of interest and or money. It's here, and apparently it
is liked my more than a few thought.

Either way, it is a good idea to to the toughy feely thing with any sizeable
investment.

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wayne J. wrote:
>
>> am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
>> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.
>
> Check out Powermatic and General as well.
>
> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

I used to work for Delta. General is my next favorite. I never could afford
a Powermatic.

wayne

Doug,

Mate, I am relaxed. I went to some length to mention a number of times
my respect for the group and posters - and I did not intend at all that you
take my blathering as a personal attack. It was an attack of the concept.
I unreservedly apologise if it came across otherwise.

Mike

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Doug,
>>
>> Deep breath in......
>>
>> Your suggestions that people research before they ask a question here
>> is
>> fundamentaly flawed.
>>
>> What makes you the sole arbiter of where one commences a search?
>
> What makes you think that I'm attempting to set myself up as "the sole
> arbiter of where one commences a search"? Get a grip, Mike, all I did
> was suggest that since the SawStop has already been discussed here
> numerous times, he should check Google Groups to see what's already been
> said.
>
>>Why is
>> it correct that someone must search google before they use a newsgroup?
>> Newsgroups pre-date Google by a looong way. What makes it correct that
>> you
>> can't come here until you have been there?????
>
> Again -- if he wants opinions on the SawStop, the easiest way of finding
> them is to look at the opinions that have already been expressed.
>>
>> Your position is based on YOUR view of the world, and which end of
>> the
>> chicken the bloody egg came out of.
>>
>> My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
>> newsgroup a question that might have been asked a million times. Go to a
>> pub, lean against the local bar, and ask "Who is that statue out there in
>> memory of?" They don't all pipe in and say "Go to the Library mate - all
>> the
>> answers you need are there, now piss off "
>
> And where did I tell him anything even remotely like "all the answers
> you need are there, now piss off"??
>
> Relax, have a cold beer, and calm down.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wayne J. wrote:
>
>> SWMBO is getting real concerned with my old saw, so maybe she will let me
>> spring for a "safer" saw.
>
> So what is existing saw?
>
> Lew

9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975). Good saw. Came with
two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had the ability to be
placed so that the extensions were all on one side or one on each side of
the blade. Putting them all the way to the right gives you a 48" rip
setting. It was the only saw up here that did that other then the Unisaw
back then.

Problem is it only uses round rails, so I can't put a Beismeyer on it.
(crud).

It is powered by a 220VAC 1.5 HP Marathon motor off of a AB paddle starter.
The guts of the saw are identical to the 10" contractor saws. The cabinet,
handwheels and top were different.

Wayne

"Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug,
>
> Deep breath in......
>
> Your suggestions that people research before they ask a question here
> is
> fundamentaly flawed.
>
> What makes you the sole arbiter of where one commences a search? Why
> is
> it correct that someone must search google before they use a newsgroup?
> Newsgroups pre-date Google by a looong way. What makes it correct that
> you
> can't come here until you have been there?????
>
> Your position is based on YOUR view of the world, and which end of the
> chicken the bloody egg came out of.
>
> My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
> newsgroup a question that might have been asked a million times. Go to a
> pub, lean against the local bar, and ask "Who is that statue out there in
> memory of?" They don't all pipe in and say "Go to the Library mate - all
> the
> answers you need are there, now piss off "


Well there is a refreshing different point of view that makes a lot of
sense.

Frank Boettcher wrote:

> So let's see, you design your pack then send it out to an independent
> International Safe Transit Association lab to have it tested and
> certified.

As an observer of this thread, one thing is obvious.

Frank, makes no difference whether you are right or wrong, you are
trying to piss up wind.

Lew

the ususal two that get the most action are:
"why can't I bring my concealed hand guns in to Canada?" and anything that
says one make of truck is better then another.

either is usually good for a few days.


"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yeah - Go over to rec.outdoors.rv.travel and post a message with header
> "gun control". You don't need any words and your likely to goe 200 posts.
>
> Not really - kidding.
>
> (Kidding about actually doing it - not the # of posts) - It's like this
> place. Good folks but salty.
>
> RonB
>
>
>>> Nasty? If you think anyone here is nasty, spend a few days over at
>>> rec.outdoors.rv-travel. Salty bunch of bastards!
>>>
>>> BTW, ignore Doug and ask away. Most folks over here are pretty easy to
>>> get
>>> along with. Apparently it's Doug's time of the month.
>>>
>>> RonB
>>>
>>>
>> thanks Ron. The only other NG, I go to is RORT, so I am used to it.
>>
>> wayne
>>
>>
>
>

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:

> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne
>
The subject has been discussed to death.
What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like to
make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their own
machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

> If you are sitting watching TV and getting hit on the head with a
> hammer, so you put on an "transit tested" and approved helmet or do
> you stop the hammer from hitting you?
>

Nah. I come into the den, and fire up the 'rec...

;)

Patriarch

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" wrote in message
>>
>>> Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>>> choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be.
>>
>> According to Frank B., and everything I've seen myself backs him up, any
>> "UniSaw, pre 2003, and with the marathon motor", and you will be getting
>> what us old-timer's would expect when buying a "UniSaw".
>>
>
> Ok, I'll go with that, however the ones with the broken trunions were
> older than the 2003 and later models.
>
Leon has a point. When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the
older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were
prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally
snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better.
Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have all
10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.

Wayne

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Snip

>
> I'm sure some will consider my opinion to be utter garbage, but if I or
> someone else can't deal with that sentiment, then is not a place you want
> to
> be. Many might consider this discussion the making of a mountain out of a
> molehill, but the bulk of the messages in any newsgroup is discussion like
> this one.
>
> Ok, I'm off my soapbox. It's someone else's turn. :)
>
>

Ah, but you see thats why the Wreck/ng's are simultaneously frustrating and
marvellous. For some its "Mark Conversation as Read" for some it's "Ignore
Conversation" and for some it is "Take bait and chew down hard". Me - I am
guilty of em all....

Ups, I have no issue with you having a different opinion to me - I am just
upset that you didn't answer my original question about grounding dust
collection systems...

Huh? Wassat? The yellow one? Oh damn I took two blue ones. Grumble

Mike
Brisbane Aus.

"Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Ups, I have no issue with you having a different opinion to me - I am just
> upset that you didn't answer my original question about grounding dust
> collection systems...

Would that I could, but considering my non-existent experience with dust
collection systems, I'll have to defer to others.

5
"Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Your suggestions that people research before they ask a question here is
> fundamentaly flawed.

It may have been a flawed suggestion at one time, but considering the ease
with which one can get most information these days, it makes complete sense
to try to find the answer yourself first. Any experience at all on the
internet teaches most people that it's essentially lazy for one not to try
on their own first.

As well, it could be considered self-preservation. If the OP had posted
something like, "I did a Google search but didn't come up with any
information" then he'd have been much more well received. Of course, if he'd
tried that line with the fact that he'd Googled Sawstop and found nothing,
then he'd have been laughed out of town.

"Mike Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I think Google has masterminded some sort of cultural mindset
> retraining - perhaps even using nefarious chemicals, to position itself as
> the pre-eminant suppository. (repository?)

I guess we're just going to have to disagree then. As far as Google goes,
there's plenty of other online sources to get information, it doesn't have
to be Google at all. It's just that since most (many) consider it the
pre-eminent online search engine, it's the first name that pops into my mind
when I consider finding many types of information. I'm reasonably sure,
(much to your chagrin), that "google" has or will remain a fully recognized
word meaning the equivalent of "search engine" long after Google the company
has retired into the annals of history.

However, I digress in my argument. I'm old enough to have plenty of
experience in the time before internet when the quickest way to find
information was to ask someone. If that didn't work and you wanted to invest
the time, you went to find test on the subject. These methods are no longer
the quickest way to an answer. For simple questions, an online search is
easily the fastest method. Placing the question in a newsgroup means that
person has to wait for someone to respond. It's not nearly as fast and the
answer is much more subject to being "coloured" by the personality of the
respondent.

I can only assume that someone who couldn't be bothered to put in a small
amount of time to get a quick answer feels that it's easier to use up
someone else's time to than use their own. These days, that just doesn't cut
it. I know that many feel as I do, that if you want information, then be
prepared to make at least a token effort to find the answer by yourself
first. At the very least, come forearmed with a little information you've
sourced out so you can contribute something on the subject or at least ask
intelligent questions as you mine the users here for information.

I'm sure some will consider my opinion to be utter garbage, but if I or
someone else can't deal with that sentiment, then is not a place you want to
be. Many might consider this discussion the making of a mountain out of a
molehill, but the bulk of the messages in any newsgroup is discussion like
this one.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. It's someone else's turn. :)

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> "Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>> Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
>>> problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
>>> shippers.
>
>
>It has nothing to do with LTL shippers, but everything to do with inadequate
>packaging or poor design. When you have damage getting a product to the
>customer, you must change one or both.

So let's see, you design your pack then send it out to an independent
International Safe Transit Association lab to have it tested and
certified. The certification means that it has been tested to the
most severe handling the package will see consistent with the
contractural terms LTL shipping. It passes the test and is rated
"Transit Tested". The LTL shipper accepts the package for shipment.
The LTL shipper mishandles the package in a manner inconsistent with
the general terms of the shipping contract and damages the contents.
Damages it in a manner whereby the shipper admits liability for
freight damage to your package. The package they accepted and you
paid a fee for them to transport.

It has nothing to do with the LTL shipper?

>
>I had a customer that tried to solve a very expensive breakage problem with
>a $25 package when what they really needed was a 5¢ screw to hold a power
>supply. This sort of thing happens all the time. Once the problem is
>recognized, just fix it in the most simple manner.
>

"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> So let's see, you design your pack then send it out to an independent
> International Safe Transit Association lab to have it tested and
> certified. The certification means that it has been tested to the
> most severe handling the package will see consistent with the
> contractural terms LTL shipping. It passes the test and is rated
> "Transit Tested". The LTL shipper accepts the package for shipment.
> The LTL shipper mishandles the package in a manner inconsistent with
> the general terms of the shipping contract and damages the contents.
> Damages it in a manner whereby the shipper admits liability for
> freight damage to your package. The package they accepted and you
> paid a fee for them to transport.
>
> It has nothing to do with the LTL shipper?

Right. ISTA specifications do not always cover real life, nor does the lab
testing used to achieve the "transit tested" label. A few hours on the
shaker table is nothing compared to one lumper letting go of his two-wheeler
while moving your package. If you use the specifications for weight and
size, a table saw is subjected only to a small drop or even an incline test.
That does not cover real life. Contractual terms of the LTL shipper mean
nothing out on the dock at 3:00 AM, or some strange handling at delivery, or
rough handling at the distributor's warehouse. .

I've been in the protective packaging industry for 37 years. I've seen
computers fall off the back of a semi trailer as he pulled away from the
dock to close the doors, (not re-tested, just put back on the truck) I've
seen packages than meet the ISTA for a 12" drop fall down 4' while being
carried up steps. I've seen a major pharmaceutical company have excessive
glass breakage in their ISTA approved package solved after they found a UPS
terminal sorter used his steel tipped boots for sorting. (this was hundreds
of bottle of liquid medicine over about 6 months hit in just the right spot
before it was solved) I've seen packages not dropped, but walked on and
used as steps to get to others crushing the contents.

OTOH, I had a new engineer at an existing customer call a meeting because
the packaging they were using did not meet their testing procedure (DEC 101
if you were in the electronics industry) he recently initiated. In use for
two years and tens of thousands of shipments, the company general manager
asked him many were damaged in all that time. The engineer said "none" and
the meeting was over.

ISTA is a good starting point, but it does not alleviate the need for
protective packaging that works under real life every day situations.

FACT: Product was damaged when being shipped to manufacturer to consumer.
CAUSE: Improper handling or weak part
REMEDY: Better packaging,or stronger parts, or train and monitor every
truck driver, fork lift driver, and material handler in the world. .

You can blame whoever you want, but that does not fix the problem at the
root. You use the most economical solution for the particular situation. It
may be pennies for a stronger part or dollars for a more secure package, or
it may be thousands for a redesign of a part versus 15¢ for some cushioning.
Every problem has a different solution.

If you are sitting watching TV and getting hit on the head with a hammer, so
you put on an "transit tested" and approved helmet or do you stop the hammer
from hitting you?

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Others like to be helpful and will respond because they enjoy it.
>And then there is Doug... He has nothing better to do than respond, but
>instead of being helpful, he is nasty.

There was nothing nasty in what I wrote. I pointed him to a place where he
could get answers to his questions. What's your problem with that?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> I'm waiting for you to make similar comments about CW, whose response to
>> Wayne
>> was considerably more abrupt than mine.
>
> You are right. But I suspect the OP didn't realize he was ruining so many
> people's days by asking a simple question.
>
> RonB
It was just a question. sheeeesh.

wayne

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
>> Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>> choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be.
>
> According to Frank B., and everything I've seen myself backs him up, any
> "UniSaw, pre 2003, and with the marathon motor", and you will be getting
> what us old-timer's would expect when buying a "UniSaw".
>

Ok, I'll go with that, however the ones with the broken trunions were older
than the 2003 and later models.

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:11:21 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>>>choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be. Delta was having QC
>>>problems with the saw.......
>>
>> Not true. Quote your source. We've been through this before, twice.
>
>Texas Tool Traders. They told me this when I was compairing a Unisaw to a
>Jet. The Unisaw sat on the show room floor with a broken trunion. A Delta
>rep e-mailed me direct concerning this issue in so much that Texas Tool
>traders could not repair the saw because of a trunion BO status. The rep
>assured me that he would look into resolving the matter.
>

Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
shippers.

The established process was for the distributor to file a freight
claim, return the unit, and receive another. All at Delta's cost.
Why this was not done in the case you describe is beyond me. Most
others just sent them back.


>
>
>>
>> and their have been many reports of new Unisaws
>>>arriving with broken trunions.
>>
>> True, quite some time ago. Any damaged units were replaced under
>> warranty. Most discovered at the distributor, did not go to the
>> customer. Has nothing to do with the quality of a unit delivered in
>> good shape.
>
>The broken trunion on the saw that I saw was about 6 years ago.
>
>Frank normally I would agree. But, how is it that the brand saw that
>arrives damaged is the Delta Unisaw? I read on this news group from a
>respected poster that Delta later admitted that the trunions were being
>improperly torqued. A DAGS should show you that comment if you are
>interested.

I've tried to fiind it and asked you to verify. Last time you posted
for all to see that it was Charlie Self. If so, Charlie should
corroborate. Now a respected poster may have said it, but I've told
you many times it is simply not true, so the respected poster had to
have been misled. If you could lead me to the source, maybe we could
clear this up. Until then, I will continue to challenge your statement
whenever you post it. I will not challenge your opinion of Delta, nor
your choice of equipment, nor any recommendation you make to others,
as long as no statements are made that I know to be not factual or not
relevant today.

As one who lived through the entire ordeal of broken trunions from
start to finish, I probably know more than anyone else about the
issue.


>Regardless, if a particular brand tool is having a problem with
>transportation or manufacturing, that is a QC problem and it is that brands
>problem until the problem is resolved.
>
You saw one six years ago. Problem was resolved shortly after that. I
wonder why whenever anyone says they might buy a Delta you bring it up
like it is a current problem. Look, you can have your opinion about
what you prefer as can anyone, but it is disingenuous to continue to
post about "quality problems" or "improper torque settings" over and
over when it is not true.

>To be fair, there have been many reports of Grizzlys being delivered tipped
>over and up side down. Oddly many reportedly had only superficial damage.
>
>Perhaps Delta would not be in the shape it is in today had corporate greed
>not entered into the equasion and continued to deliver a compeditive quality
>product.

Granted, however, absolutely nothing to do with your statements above.
>
>I really have nothing to gain one way or the other concerning the problems
>Delta is having or has had. I own and have owned a few Delta tools and
>strongly considered the Unisaw to be my first choice when buying 6 or 7
>years ago but then I went to the local dealer and listened to his comments,
>the reps comments, and the posts on this group, and then directly compared
>the Unisaw to the Jet cabinet saw, well you get the picture.

Great, you evaluated and made an informed buying decision. That is
everyone's right.
>
>I am not saying that the Unisaw is a bad choice, again I am only saying that
>the Unisaw is not what it used to be and the QC has not been up to par with
>the competition.

That (QC up to par with the competition) is your opinion and you have
a right to express it, just please don't use untruthful statements or
issues of another time that would not be relevant today to support
that opinion. I would appreciate that.

>
>
>> For a while Delta blamed the shipping
>>>company.
>>
>> For very good reason. Trunions were breaking from a specific tip over
>> which generally happened on shipping docks during LTL shipment.
>
>Why were the other brand saws not being tipped over like the Deltas? Was
>Delta being targeted?

Don't have a clue

>This went on for a few years IIRC. Why was packageing not improved to
>prevent this?

It was. Package was ISTA certified (do you know what that is?) both
before the problem started and was tested a number of additional
times as the pack was modified. It never failed a truck vibration,
inclined ramp, or straight drop test as requried to be ISTA certified.
That's what caused so much delay. We couldn't figure out what was
happening until we purposely started to try to destroy them. In
essence bacame an LTL shipper to see if we could simulate the problem.

QC does not stop at the factory door. Perhaps equipment
>built to withstand a boat ride holds up better on the docks.

The company is responsible for the product until delivery is accepted
by the distributor and continues to be responsible for the product in
some manner for its life. The factory manufacturing quality is part
of that responsibility and had nothing to do with this problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Leon" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" wrote in message
>
>
> >
> > Next time specifically request "civil" opinions ... while you still may
> > not
> > get any, you will at least have a leg to stand on when whining.
>
>
> ;~)

Hey, ya gotta be TOUGH in this 'hood! ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no...
> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
> genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>
> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> thank you
> wayne
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> This again? Try Google.
>>
>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no...
>>> http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>
>>> Is this for real?
>>> has anyone actually used one?
>>> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>> features?
>>>
>>> wayne
>>>
>>>

Wayne, don't give up too soon. I'm a new woodworker (maybe not in years, but
in number of hours spent on it as a hobby) and I've received way more advice
from this group than I could ever hope to contribute in return.

There are some who can be abrupt in their response, but keep in mind that in
a newsgroup nobody owes you an answer. If someone takes the time to type out
a response to your question, that's an act of generosity.

Plus, I think if you look back at your three questions, they truly have been
answered in previous discussions. That's why so many people just respond
with "Do a Google News search".

In article <AOfWh.105124$aG1.85718@pd7urf3no>, Wayne J. <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>Believe it or not, this is the first I have heard of this saw. I have been
>researching it as my old Rockwell cabinet saw has about had it. My
>preference would be a Unisaw, but this is really getting my interest.
>
>thks for the help
>wayne
>
>

A Rockwell cabinet saw IS a unisaw, no?


--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

In article <q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?

Why can't a person do a little research before asking a question that's
already been answered a hundred times?
>
>Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
>genuine opinions.

To be quite honest, I don't believe that. If you had done any research on the
SawStop in Google Groups, you would have found plenty of genuine opinions,
both positive and negative.

>If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.

A gentle suggestion that you should do a little research on your own *is* a
"genuine opinion". If you don't like it, don't read it.
>
>I am very sorry I cam back to this group.

You're probably not the only one.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1IeWh.103413$6m4.102563@pd7urf1no...
>>
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>>
>
>>>>Is this for real?
>
>
> Absolutely
>
>
>>>>has anyone actually used one?
>
> Yes. Several posters to this group own the TS and LeeValley uses them in
> their stores.
>
>
>>>>how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>>>features?
>
> From reports by users and magaaine articles the saw is top notch.
>
>
thanks. I appreciate the answer

wayne

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ZOuWh.113308$6m4.40025@pd7urf1no...

> Leon has a point. When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the
> older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were
> prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally
> snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better.
> Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have
> all 10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.
>
> Wayne
>

Thanks Wayne,

I really did not dream this stuff up. LOL.

Yeah - Go over to rec.outdoors.rv.travel and post a message with header "gun
control". You don't need any words and your likely to goe 200 posts.

Not really - kidding.

(Kidding about actually doing it - not the # of posts) - It's like this
place. Good folks but salty.

RonB


>> Nasty? If you think anyone here is nasty, spend a few days over at
>> rec.outdoors.rv-travel. Salty bunch of bastards!
>>
>> BTW, ignore Doug and ask away. Most folks over here are pretty easy to
>> get
>> along with. Apparently it's Doug's time of the month.
>>
>> RonB
>>
>>
> thanks Ron. The only other NG, I go to is RORT, so I am used to it.
>
> wayne
>
>

>
> He has nothing better to do than respond, but instead of being helpful, he
> is nasty. I don't even like to think about what he is compensating for.
>
Nasty? If you think anyone here is nasty, spend a few days over at
rec.outdoors.rv-travel. Salty bunch of bastards!

BTW, ignore Doug and ask away. Most folks over here are pretty easy to get
along with. Apparently it's Doug's time of the month.

RonB

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:18:29 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>Texas Tool Traders. They told me this when I was compairing a Unisaw to a
>>>Jet. The Unisaw sat on the show room floor with a broken trunion. A
>>>Delta
>>>rep e-mailed me direct concerning this issue in so much that Texas Tool
>>>traders could not repair the saw because of a trunion BO status. The rep
>>>assured me that he would look into resolving the matter.
>>>
>>
>> Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
>> problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
>> shippers.
>
>You can color the pig any color you like Frank but in the end, all the
>customer saw was QC problems. It does not matter who you point the finger
>at, the customer is the one that has to be convienced. Having been in the
>service business all my life, out side vendors and contractors that help to
>bring your goods and services to market are as much YOUR responsibility as
>any aspect of manufacturing the product. You can only blame other sources
>for so long before you have to find another reason for problems. The
>shipper is an easy fix, change shippers. Got a contract with that company,
>you are not going to loose in a contract dispute if the shipper id damaging
>goods more than the industry average. If Delta did not recognise these
>facts it explains why the company has been sold, traded, and or merged so
>many times in recent years.
>
>
>>
>> The established process was for the distributor to file a freight
>> claim, return the unit, and receive another. All at Delta's cost.
>> Why this was not done in the case you describe is beyond me. Most
>> others just sent them back.
>
>And from a business stand point that is a big problem also. I have never
>heard of a shipper having to absorb freight costs because the freight
>company damages its goods unless of course Delta was prepaired to eat X
>amount of freight costs to get a better rate. That too obviousely back
>fired. Delta should have been reimbursed or not charged for every damaged
>delivery providing the receiver noted the damage at time of receipt. If
>there were no obvious signs of damage, that was another warning sign missed,
>improper packaging.
>
>
>>>
>>>The broken trunion on the saw that I saw was about 6 years ago.
>>>
>>>Frank normally I would agree. But, how is it that the brand saw that
>>>arrives damaged is the Delta Unisaw? I read on this news group from a
>>>respected poster that Delta later admitted that the trunions were being
>>>improperly torqued. A DAGS should show you that comment if you are
>>>interested.
>>
>> I've tried to fiind it and asked you to verify. Last time you posted
>> for all to see that it was Charlie Self. If so, Charlie should
>> corroborate.
>
>If you cannnot verify, I probably cannot either.
>
>Now a respected poster may have said it, but I've told
>> you many times it is simply not true, so the respected poster had to
>> have been misled.
>
>Charlie is still the person I am thinking about concerning the comment.
>
>If you could lead me to the source, maybe we could
>> clear this up. Until then, I will continue to challenge your statement
>> whenever you post it.
>
>Not a problem Frank, I respect your point of view and have nothing personal
>invested in this discussion. If I were in your shoes I would probably
>defend Delt a little more strongly.
>
>
> I will not challenge your opinion of Delta, nor
>> your choice of equipment, nor any recommendation you make to others,
>> as long as no statements are made that I know to be not factual or not
>> relevant today.
>
>This probably boils down to symantics. I am restating personal observations
>and comments made by others at stores, this news groups and by a Delta rep.
>You are stating Delta's observations and again Delta has seen much better
>days. They certainly have not "oficially" admitted to letting a problem go
>for so long and where they are today may be a direct result of this kind of
>thinking and or reaction to a problem. Eventually the customers hear "Wolf"
>too many times. I have seen this happen in the automotive industry to a
>well respected and old car company, Oldsmobile. Like you, I had strong ties
>to Oldsmobile and the service end of that business. Their arrogance
>eventually sunk the ship. I cannot tell you how many times Oldsmobile
>pointed fingers in the wrong direction.
>
>>
>> As one who lived through the entire ordeal of broken trunions from
>> start to finish, I probably know more than anyone else about the
>> issue.
>>
>>
>>>Regardless, if a particular brand tool is having a problem with
>>>transportation or manufacturing, that is a QC problem and it is that
>>>brands
>>>problem until the problem is resolved.
>>>
>> You saw one six years ago. Problem was resolved shortly after that.
>
>I had read of numerous cases prior to actually seeing one.
>
>>I wonder why whenever anyone says they might buy a Delta you bring it up
>> like it is a current problem.
>
>Believe me, there are stores out there with old stock. Texas Tool Traders
>had a broken Unisaw in their inventory for several months. Some of their
>stock has been there for years.
>
>
>Look, you can have your opinion about
>> what you prefer as can anyone, but it is disingenuous to continue to
>> post about "quality problems" or "improper torque settings" over and
>> over when it is not true.
>
>While at the moment Delta may be running like a well oiled machine.... that
>has not been the case in the past.
>What has changed to guarantee a positive change?
>
>>
>Snip
>
>
>>>I am not saying that the Unisaw is a bad choice, again I am only saying
>>>that
>>>the Unisaw is not what it used to be and the QC has not been up to par
>>>with
>>>the competition.
>>
>> That (QC up to par with the competition) is your opinion and you have
>> a right to express it, just please don't use untruthful statements or
>> issues of another time that would not be relevant today to support
>> that opinion. I would appreciate that.
>
>Well, I am not making any of this up and have no reason to do so. Now,
>Wayne J. is also admitting that trunions would "Magically" snap when he
>worked for Delta . They used to believe it was QC. No mention of blaming a
>shipping company. Here is nnother reference of some one other than me that
>has also heard that Delta believed it to be a QC problem.
>Now I'll give you that Wayne J. for all we know may not be a real person or
>know beans about Delta although he claims to have worked at Delta and until
>I made the Delta QC comment was considering the Unisaw as a preferred
>replacement until he saw the SawStop. He made no comment about the QC issue
>up front but has admitted knowledge about the trunion failures and still is
>considering the Unisaw. this all falls in place with what I have read and
>been told.
>
>His comment,
>
>When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the
>older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were
>prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally
>snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better.
>Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have all
>10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.
>

I'll rest on all other issues, not going to rehash, let those that are
interested make up their own minds. On the issue of Wayne J.'s
experience with Delta, I'll defer until he authenticates. Despite its
market penetration, Delta is a small company, I would probably know
him if we worked during the same time frame. If his tenure was
earlier than mine, his opinion (as an employee) on this matter would
not be relevant. I hope he responds, would be good to have another
Delta ex as a poster, particularly with Canadian experience.

However, when responding to a recommendation request, if you degrade
Delta by either offering information that is not true (trunnion
torque setting problems) or issues that are not currently relevant,
then I will respond accordingly, that is with the truth. Nothing
personal, just want the air to stay clear of clutter.

During my career with Delta, I was the Quality Manager for a time
prior to becoming the head of domestic manufacturing operations. I
and those who both preceded me and came after me in the Quality
position deserve to have the truth, good or bad and there is plenty of
both to go around, on a public forum. I'll not mention the Quality
Manager by name who was in office during the trunnion breakage time
frame, but will say that no one was more concerned or worked harder to
diagnose the cause, and respond with corrective action.

Frank




>So now, you have the same proof that I am not making this up and that I
>along with others have just reason to make the comments about QC at Delta.
>That is as good as I can do for you right now.
>
>
>
>
>>>> For a while Delta blamed the shipping
>>>>>company.
>>>>
>>>> For very good reason. Trunions were breaking from a specific tip over
>>>> which generally happened on shipping docks during LTL shipment.
>>>
>>>Why were the other brand saws not being tipped over like the Deltas? Was
>>>Delta being targeted?
>>
>> Don't have a clue
>
>I don't think they were being targeted but you have to admit, the evidence
>does not look good for Delta. Now if you can provide an answer as to why
>Delta Unisaws did not fair as well as other brands through the shipping
>process I'll bet it will include something about QC whether it be in the
>manufacturing or packaging of the product.
>
>
>
>>
>>>This went on for a few years IIRC. Why was packageing not improved to
>>>prevent this?
>>
>> It was. Package was ISTA certified (do you know what that is?) both
>> before the problem started and was tested a number of additional
>> times as the pack was modified. It never failed a truck vibration,
>> inclined ramp, or straight drop test as requried to be ISTA certified.
>> That's what caused so much delay. We couldn't figure out what was
>> happening until we purposely started to try to destroy them. In
>> essence bacame an LTL shipper to see if we could simulate the problem.
>
>And what does that indicate? Packaging problems? Is that not a QC problem
>that affected the product and the views of the customer?
>
>
>>
>> QC does not stop at the factory door. Perhaps equipment
>>>built to withstand a boat ride holds up better on the docks.
>>
>> The company is responsible for the product until delivery is accepted
>> by the distributor and continues to be responsible for the product in
>> some manner for its life. The factory manufacturing quality is part
>> of that responsibility and had nothing to do with this problem.
>
>In the real business world Frank, that is crap. The "company" is
>responsible, period. The company makes all the choices from design to
>delivery to the customer. If they make bad choices that is still their
>problem. If they make good choices they benefit from that also. The
>customer does not care one bit whose fault it is that the product arrives
>broken. The real looser is Delta because of that way of thinking.
>
>You can come up with all the reason as to why, the fact remains that Delta
>had QC problems as far as it's customers was concerned and bottom line that
>is the only important person that Delta needs to please.
>Personally I don't buy the shipping excuse because it was mostly a Delta
>issue.
>
>With all due respect Frank, thank you for the opportunity to hash this out
>once again. ;~) I still have the utmost respect of your openions and will
>continue to value your comments. Stick to your guns, Delta needed more
>people like you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:AOfWh.105124$aG1.85718@pd7urf3no...
>>
> I have been away for a couple of years due to illness. I am now getting
> back in to woodworking.
>
> Believe it or not, this is the first I have heard of this saw. I have been
> researching it as my old Rockwell cabinet saw has about had it. My
> preference would be a Unisaw, but this is really getting my interest.
>
> thks for the help
> wayne
>
>

Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be. Delta was having QC
problems with the saw and their have been many reports of new Unisaws
arriving with broken trunions. For a while Delta blamed the shipping
company. Either way, Jet, Grizzly and Powermatic would probably be equal
or better alternatives. FIY.

The SawStop is probably be a better alternative but will cost more. The
SawStop has been around for 5 or 6 years and has been in production and for
sale for 2 or 3 years. "Some" early models were exhibiting false triggers
however those that reported this have also indicated that the SawStop people
worked with them to resolve the problem. One of the problems was that a one
of the users in a shop of users caused false triggers because of the
electronic watch that he was wearing IIRC. Apparently some type of diode
was added to the electrical circuit to solve the problem, IIRC it was also
reported by the same owner that the saw triggered again with the same user
but this time it saved a trip to the hospital.
One of the most common questions about the saw concerning the ability to
trigger is if the saw will trigger with the power off. What if the
electricity goes off and the lights go out while sawing? Apparently the saw
still has the ability to trigger if the power is lost or if you turn the
power swath off and the blade is still spinning.

Doug,

Deep breath in......

Your suggestions that people research before they ask a question here is
fundamentaly flawed.

What makes you the sole arbiter of where one commences a search? Why is
it correct that someone must search google before they use a newsgroup?
Newsgroups pre-date Google by a looong way. What makes it correct that you
can't come here until you have been there?????

Your position is based on YOUR view of the world, and which end of the
chicken the bloody egg came out of.

My view is that there is NOTHING wrong with someone asking in a
newsgroup a question that might have been asked a million times. Go to a
pub, lean against the local bar, and ask "Who is that statue out there in
memory of?" They don't all pipe in and say "Go to the Library mate - all the
answers you need are there, now piss off "

I was importing the mail for Australia on a 1200/300 push button dial up
link to California, long before the Internet became fashionable. (3:640/301,
820, 801, 802 and for a while 3:640/0 and /1. We had these same arguments
back then - why dont you read the archives blah blah blah. Well - the WORLD
is so big u see, that there are new people coming on board all the time -
was true then, and is more true now - there are people every day STARTING at
google, or STARTING on newsgroups, or STARTING with a text book. The
residents of Google-land, Newsgroup land, and or the Library should not be
pointing at some other source of the information and re-directing. If you
don't want to provide the answer - shut up and let some one else do so. (I
don't mean that to sound aggressive - it is not meant that way) There are
plenty of people who will give an answer to a question that has been asked
before, of someone else, by someone else at a different time. And If I have
seen it before - I move on. Is easy. IS certainly easier than all this
moaning of mine :-)


Your position is yours - I just object to you being so bloody minded
about it - thats my position :-)

Have good day.

O, btw, Does anybody have any info on explosions caused by ungrounded dust
collection systems?

Regards
Mike (in flameproof suit)
Brisbane Australia


"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>
> Why can't a person do a little research before asking a question that's
> already been answered a hundred times?
> >
SNIP

> >I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>
> You're probably not the only one.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
SNAP

In article <[email protected]>, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> He has nothing better to do than respond, but instead of being helpful, he
>> is nasty. I don't even like to think about what he is compensating for.
>>
>Nasty? If you think anyone here is nasty, spend a few days over at
>rec.outdoors.rv-travel. Salty bunch of bastards!
>
>BTW, ignore Doug and ask away. Most folks over here are pretty easy to get
>along with. Apparently it's Doug's time of the month.

I'm waiting for you to make similar comments about CW, whose response to Wayne
was considerably more abrupt than mine.
>RonB
>
>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Next time specifically request "civil" opinions ... while you still may
> not
> get any, you will at least have a leg to stand on when whining.


;~)

BTW - We have been to the Grizzly Springfield store. If you haven't been to
their outlet, by all means do. It is the ultimate big-boys candy store.

RonB

> An alternative is Shop Fox. They are the retail outlet version of
> Grizzly. Pretty much the same machines with different looks.
>
> RonB
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:nYzWh.113820$6m4.105988@pd7urf1no...
>>
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Might look at Grizzly 1023 series too. I don't know what shipping into
>>> Canada costs but it is in a real similar class as the Unisaw and Jet
>>> Cabinet saws.
>>>
>>> RonB
>>>
>>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:MCnWh.111476$DE1.21531@pd7urf2no...
>>>>
>>>> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>> news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>>>>>
>>>>>> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
>>>>>> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thank you
>>>>>> wayne
>>>>>>
>>>>> The subject has been discussed to death.
>>>>> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would
>>>>> like to
>>>>> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
>>>>> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their
>>>>> own
>>>>> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it
>>>>> advertizes,
>>>>> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>> Han
>>>>> email address is invalid
>>>>
>>>> thanks Han.
>>>>
>>>> I am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
>>>> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.
>>>>
>>>> I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.
>>>>
>>>> thks
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Grizzly used to be available in Canada, but now they are not shippping to
>> Canada. The good news is they have an outlet just across the border in
>> Bellingham, Washington. That is very close. I will check out with
>> Canadian Border Services to see if they are restricted for some reason.
>> Probably CSA approval.
>>
>> thks
>>
>>
>
>

"Leon" wrote in message

> Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
> choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be.

According to Frank B., and everything I've seen myself backs him up, any
"UniSaw, pre 2003, and with the marathon motor", and you will be getting
what us old-timer's would expect when buying a "UniSaw".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Might look at Grizzly 1023 series too. I don't know what shipping into
> Canada costs but it is in a real similar class as the Unisaw and Jet
> Cabinet saws.
>
> RonB
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:MCnWh.111476$DE1.21531@pd7urf2no...
>>
>> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:q4nWh.111119$aG1.88833@pd7urf3no:
>>>
>>>> why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?
>>>>
>>>> Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for
>>>> some genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.
>>>>
>>>> I am very sorry I cam back to this group.
>>>>
>>>> thank you
>>>> wayne
>>>>
>>> The subject has been discussed to death.
>>> What I got from all the opinions is that the Sawstop company would like
>>> to
>>> make their patented technology obligatory in the name of safety. They
>>> could not persuade nor legislate that. So they decided to make their
>>> own
>>> machine. Apparently it is generally well made, does what it advertizes,
>>> but is expensive. You do the cost-benefit analysis.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards
>>> Han
>>> email address is invalid
>>
>> thanks Han.
>>
>> I am seeing that as it is about $2,000 higher then a Unisaw up here in
>> Canada. I think I may still go with the Unisaw or a Jet.
>>
>> I am going to go talk to a friend at Lee Valley today, though.
>>
>> thks
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>

Grizzly used to be available in Canada, but now they are not shippping to
Canada. The good news is they have an outlet just across the border in
Bellingham, Washington. That is very close. I will check out with Canadian
Border Services to see if they are restricted for some reason. Probably CSA
approval.

thks

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> He has nothing better to do than respond, but instead of being helpful,
>> he is nasty. I don't even like to think about what he is compensating
>> for.
>>
> Nasty? If you think anyone here is nasty, spend a few days over at
> rec.outdoors.rv-travel. Salty bunch of bastards!
>
> BTW, ignore Doug and ask away. Most folks over here are pretty easy to
> get
> along with. Apparently it's Doug's time of the month.
>
> RonB
>
>
thanks Ron. The only other NG, I go to is RORT, so I am used to it.

wayne

"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>>Texas Tool Traders. They told me this when I was compairing a Unisaw to a
>>Jet. The Unisaw sat on the show room floor with a broken trunion. A
>>Delta
>>rep e-mailed me direct concerning this issue in so much that Texas Tool
>>traders could not repair the saw because of a trunion BO status. The rep
>>assured me that he would look into resolving the matter.
>>
>
> Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
> problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
> shippers.

You can color the pig any color you like Frank but in the end, all the
customer saw was QC problems. It does not matter who you point the finger
at, the customer is the one that has to be convienced. Having been in the
service business all my life, out side vendors and contractors that help to
bring your goods and services to market are as much YOUR responsibility as
any aspect of manufacturing the product. You can only blame other sources
for so long before you have to find another reason for problems. The
shipper is an easy fix, change shippers. Got a contract with that company,
you are not going to loose in a contract dispute if the shipper id damaging
goods more than the industry average. If Delta did not recognise these
facts it explains why the company has been sold, traded, and or merged so
many times in recent years.


>
> The established process was for the distributor to file a freight
> claim, return the unit, and receive another. All at Delta's cost.
> Why this was not done in the case you describe is beyond me. Most
> others just sent them back.

And from a business stand point that is a big problem also. I have never
heard of a shipper having to absorb freight costs because the freight
company damages its goods unless of course Delta was prepaired to eat X
amount of freight costs to get a better rate. That too obviousely back
fired. Delta should have been reimbursed or not charged for every damaged
delivery providing the receiver noted the damage at time of receipt. If
there were no obvious signs of damage, that was another warning sign missed,
improper packaging.


>>
>>The broken trunion on the saw that I saw was about 6 years ago.
>>
>>Frank normally I would agree. But, how is it that the brand saw that
>>arrives damaged is the Delta Unisaw? I read on this news group from a
>>respected poster that Delta later admitted that the trunions were being
>>improperly torqued. A DAGS should show you that comment if you are
>>interested.
>
> I've tried to fiind it and asked you to verify. Last time you posted
> for all to see that it was Charlie Self. If so, Charlie should
> corroborate.

If you cannnot verify, I probably cannot either.

Now a respected poster may have said it, but I've told
> you many times it is simply not true, so the respected poster had to
> have been misled.

Charlie is still the person I am thinking about concerning the comment.

If you could lead me to the source, maybe we could
> clear this up. Until then, I will continue to challenge your statement
> whenever you post it.

Not a problem Frank, I respect your point of view and have nothing personal
invested in this discussion. If I were in your shoes I would probably
defend Delt a little more strongly.


I will not challenge your opinion of Delta, nor
> your choice of equipment, nor any recommendation you make to others,
> as long as no statements are made that I know to be not factual or not
> relevant today.

This probably boils down to symantics. I am restating personal observations
and comments made by others at stores, this news groups and by a Delta rep.
You are stating Delta's observations and again Delta has seen much better
days. They certainly have not "oficially" admitted to letting a problem go
for so long and where they are today may be a direct result of this kind of
thinking and or reaction to a problem. Eventually the customers hear "Wolf"
too many times. I have seen this happen in the automotive industry to a
well respected and old car company, Oldsmobile. Like you, I had strong ties
to Oldsmobile and the service end of that business. Their arrogance
eventually sunk the ship. I cannot tell you how many times Oldsmobile
pointed fingers in the wrong direction.

>
> As one who lived through the entire ordeal of broken trunions from
> start to finish, I probably know more than anyone else about the
> issue.
>
>
>>Regardless, if a particular brand tool is having a problem with
>>transportation or manufacturing, that is a QC problem and it is that
>>brands
>>problem until the problem is resolved.
>>
> You saw one six years ago. Problem was resolved shortly after that.

I had read of numerous cases prior to actually seeing one.

>I wonder why whenever anyone says they might buy a Delta you bring it up
> like it is a current problem.

Believe me, there are stores out there with old stock. Texas Tool Traders
had a broken Unisaw in their inventory for several months. Some of their
stock has been there for years.


Look, you can have your opinion about
> what you prefer as can anyone, but it is disingenuous to continue to
> post about "quality problems" or "improper torque settings" over and
> over when it is not true.

While at the moment Delta may be running like a well oiled machine.... that
has not been the case in the past.
What has changed to guarantee a positive change?

>
Snip


>>I am not saying that the Unisaw is a bad choice, again I am only saying
>>that
>>the Unisaw is not what it used to be and the QC has not been up to par
>>with
>>the competition.
>
> That (QC up to par with the competition) is your opinion and you have
> a right to express it, just please don't use untruthful statements or
> issues of another time that would not be relevant today to support
> that opinion. I would appreciate that.

Well, I am not making any of this up and have no reason to do so. Now,
Wayne J. is also admitting that trunions would "Magically" snap when he
worked for Delta . They used to believe it was QC. No mention of blaming a
shipping company. Here is nnother reference of some one other than me that
has also heard that Delta believed it to be a QC problem.
Now I'll give you that Wayne J. for all we know may not be a real person or
know beans about Delta although he claims to have worked at Delta and until
I made the Delta QC comment was considering the Unisaw as a preferred
replacement until he saw the SawStop. He made no comment about the QC issue
up front but has admitted knowledge about the trunion failures and still is
considering the Unisaw. this all falls in place with what I have read and
been told.

His comment,

When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the
older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were
prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally
snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better.
Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have all
10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.

So now, you have the same proof that I am not making this up and that I
along with others have just reason to make the comments about QC at Delta.
That is as good as I can do for you right now.




>>> For a while Delta blamed the shipping
>>>>company.
>>>
>>> For very good reason. Trunions were breaking from a specific tip over
>>> which generally happened on shipping docks during LTL shipment.
>>
>>Why were the other brand saws not being tipped over like the Deltas? Was
>>Delta being targeted?
>
> Don't have a clue

I don't think they were being targeted but you have to admit, the evidence
does not look good for Delta. Now if you can provide an answer as to why
Delta Unisaws did not fair as well as other brands through the shipping
process I'll bet it will include something about QC whether it be in the
manufacturing or packaging of the product.



>
>>This went on for a few years IIRC. Why was packageing not improved to
>>prevent this?
>
> It was. Package was ISTA certified (do you know what that is?) both
> before the problem started and was tested a number of additional
> times as the pack was modified. It never failed a truck vibration,
> inclined ramp, or straight drop test as requried to be ISTA certified.
> That's what caused so much delay. We couldn't figure out what was
> happening until we purposely started to try to destroy them. In
> essence bacame an LTL shipper to see if we could simulate the problem.

And what does that indicate? Packaging problems? Is that not a QC problem
that affected the product and the views of the customer?


>
> QC does not stop at the factory door. Perhaps equipment
>>built to withstand a boat ride holds up better on the docks.
>
> The company is responsible for the product until delivery is accepted
> by the distributor and continues to be responsible for the product in
> some manner for its life. The factory manufacturing quality is part
> of that responsibility and had nothing to do with this problem.

In the real business world Frank, that is crap. The "company" is
responsible, period. The company makes all the choices from design to
delivery to the customer. If they make bad choices that is still their
problem. If they make good choices they benefit from that also. The
customer does not care one bit whose fault it is that the product arrives
broken. The real looser is Delta because of that way of thinking.

You can come up with all the reason as to why, the fact remains that Delta
had QC problems as far as it's customers was concerned and bottom line that
is the only important person that Delta needs to please.
Personally I don't buy the shipping excuse because it was mostly a Delta
issue.

With all due respect Frank, thank you for the opportunity to hash this out
once again. ;~) I still have the utmost respect of your openions and will
continue to value your comments. Stick to your guns, Delta needed more
people like you.

why can't a person just ask a question and not get a civil answer?

Like I have posted above, I have researched this and I am asking for some
genuine opinions. If you don't have one, then don't asnwer.

I am very sorry I cam back to this group.

thank you
wayne

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This again? Try Google.
>
> "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no...
>> http://www.sawstop.com/
>>
>> Is this for real?
>> has anyone actually used one?
>> how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>> features?
>>
>> wayne
>>
>>
>
>

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:51:05 GMT, "Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Leon" wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Eight to ten years and farther back the Unisaw would have been a good
>>>> choice. Since then it simply is not what it usta be.
>>>
>>> According to Frank B., and everything I've seen myself backs him up, any
>>> "UniSaw, pre 2003, and with the marathon motor", and you will be getting
>>> what us old-timer's would expect when buying a "UniSaw".
>>>
>>
>> Ok, I'll go with that, however the ones with the broken trunions were
>> older than the 2003 and later models.
>>
>Leon has a point. When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the
>older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were
>prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally
>snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better.
>Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have all
>10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.
>
>Wayne
>


So Wayne, elaborate. When did you work for Delta, and in what
capacity. What starter are you talking about. Where did you get
your Unisaws. When you speak of later generation, what would you be
talking about in time frame.

Wayne J. wrote:

>
> 9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975).

Been there, neat town.

> Good saw. Came with
> two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had the ability to be
> placed so that the extensions were all on one side or one on each side of
> the blade. Putting them all the way to the right gives you a 48" rip
> setting. It was the only saw up here that did that other then the Unisaw
> back then.
>
> Problem is it only uses round rails, so I can't put a Beismeyer on it.
> (crud).
>
> It is powered by a 220VAC 1.5 HP Marathon motor off of a AB paddle starter.
> The guts of the saw are identical to the 10" contractor saws. The cabinet,
> handwheels and top were different.

Sounds like you have at least 90% of a new saw already in place.

Time to spend some creative time on the thinking chair.

Couple of questions?

What is req'd to convert to accept a 10" blade?

Would you consider a UniFence?

If so, what would it take to fit a UniFence extrusion on the front of
the saw?


Lew

"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>> "Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>> Not doubting what you say, however, has nothing to do with "quality
>>>> problems" at Delta. Has a lot to do with "quality" problems with LTL
>>>> shippers.
>>
>>
>>It has nothing to do with LTL shippers, but everything to do with
>>inadequate
>>packaging or poor design. When you have damage getting a product to the
>>customer, you must change one or both.
>
> So let's see, you design your pack then send it out to an independent
> International Safe Transit Association lab to have it tested and
> certified. The certification means that it has been tested to the
> most severe handling the package will see consistent with the
> contractural terms LTL shipping. It passes the test and is rated
> "Transit Tested". The LTL shipper accepts the package for shipment.
> The LTL shipper mishandles the package in a manner inconsistent with
> the general terms of the shipping contract and damages the contents.
> Damages it in a manner whereby the shipper admits liability for
> freight damage to your package. The package they accepted and you
> paid a fee for them to transport.
>
> It has nothing to do with the LTL shipper?

Frank, I think that some Delta management knew what needed to be done but
unfortunately were limited in what they could do by the greater powers
above them and their strangle hold on the money needed to fix the problem.

Similarly, GM went through a similar situation back in the mid 80's. They
used many different carriers and because of the great variety in sizes and
shapes of the parts being shipped there were almost daily claims by any
given receiving dealer.
The packaging passed Transit Tests but sheet metal/ fenders, hoods etc. were
almost always in harms way because of the variety of other goods being
loaded in the same trailer.
Finally GM took the initiative to admit that this was not working and
switched to a dedicated carrier. Trailers were built specifically for and
to deliver strictly GM parts. These carriers only delivered GM parts.
Claims dropped about 90%.
As a parts manager receiving freight from GM daily I was not interested in
the least about packaging standards, transit tested standards or why parts
were being delivered in damaged condition. To the dismay of my local GM
Parts rep and apparently to the dismay of hundreds others, I and a great
number of parts managers purchased GM parts from other vendors rather than
GM Parts division when ever I could. I did not want excuses as that did not
solve the problems. Action by GM switching to dedicated carriers did solve
the problems.
Sometimes you have to think outside the box and spend extra money to stop
the bleeding and unfortunately in many cases managements hands are tied.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wayne J. wrote:
>
>>
>> 9" Rockwell 6201B (made in Guelph Ontario, circa 1975).
>
> Been there, neat town.
>
>> Good saw. Came with two extensions and round fence rails . The rails had
>> the ability to be placed so that the extensions were all on one side or
>> one on each side of the blade. Putting them all the way to the right
>> gives you a 48" rip setting. It was the only saw up here that did that
>> other then the Unisaw back then.
>>
>> Problem is it only uses round rails, so I can't put a Beismeyer on it.
>> (crud).
>>
>> It is powered by a 220VAC 1.5 HP Marathon motor off of a AB paddle
>> starter. The guts of the saw are identical to the 10" contractor saws.
>> The cabinet, handwheels and top were different.
>
> Sounds like you have at least 90% of a new saw already in place.
>
> Time to spend some creative time on the thinking chair.
>
> Couple of questions?
>
> What is req'd to convert to accept a 10" blade?
>
> Would you consider a UniFence?
>
> If so, what would it take to fit a UniFence extrusion on the front of the
> saw?
>
>
> Lew

I have chewed on that one for years. I think it may be as simple as mounting
the front rail using curved spaces that would fit in the groove that runs
along the front of the table top. As for a 10" blade, the is not enough
upwards clearance before it would hit the front or the back of the insert
hole. I thought about making a different insert, but again, same issue.

the 9: has been great for the past 10 years, before that I had a 34-450C
Unisaw with the 3 HP 220VAC (before they started adding all the other
numbers to the models). I sold it when we moved as I didn't think I would
need it anymore................silly silly silly............

My workshop would easily handle the saw as it is 12' x 20'. this way I can
rip or cross cut a full 4'x8' piece without any effort.

No, it will be a new say. I just need to sell it to the boss

wayne\

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

>>
>> ;~)
>
> Hey, ya gotta be TOUGH in this 'hood! ;)


Looking forward to the music at the park and the wine, popsicles, cards,
company,,,,,

Would you like to see my new Pinner????

>
> I'm waiting for you to make similar comments about CW, whose response to
> Wayne
> was considerably more abrupt than mine.

You are right. But I suspect the OP didn't realize he was ruining so many
people's days by asking a simple question.

RonB

SNIP
>
> Next time specifically request "civil" opinions ... while you still may
not
> get any, you will at least have a leg to stand on when whining.
>
> --

SNIP

LOL!
:-)
Mike.

"Wayne J." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1IeWh.103413$6m4.102563@pd7urf1no...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <h_dWh.102630$6m4.6331@pd7urf1no>, "Wayne J." <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>http://www.sawstop.com/
>>>
>>>Is this for real?
>>>has anyone actually used one?
>>>how accurate are they or has all the money been put in to the safety
>>>features?
>>
>> Here we go again...
>>
>> SawStop has been discussed _to_death_ on this newsgroup. Please do a
>> Google
>> Groups search to find the previous discussions (and there have been
>> MANY). If,
>> after reading all that, you still have any questions, then come back with
>> them.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>>
>> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
> sorry for asking. I have read a lot on it and now I thought I would ask a
> few questions
>
Wayne, no need to apologize.
The question has come up many times, so most people will just ignore you
since you could have found out the information by googling if you really
wanted to know.
Others like to be helpful and will respond because they enjoy it.
And then there is Doug... He has nothing better to do than respond, but
instead of being helpful, he is nasty. I don't even like to think about
what he is compensating for.