Anyone try the Kreg hinge jig?

On Jan 11, 2018, [email protected] wrote
(in article<[email protected]>):

> In my work, I rarely build more than a "one off" to replace a cabinet.
> Haven't done a kitchen full of cabinets in 20 years... don't miss it! I used
> to use a plastic jig with index lines to mark where I drilled for hidden
> hinges. Marked, then off to the drill press. My little gauge is long lost
> (see the Rockler version) and I have simply marked my doors one at a time
> since I will usually do no more than two to six doors on a replacement.
>
> But one of my amigos is going to build a few cabinets for himself and wants
> to put concealed hinges on the doors. I am used to measuring and for multiple
> doors or hardware pieces I always make a marking jig. (That way, if I screw
> up everything is wrong!) He can't measure well, doesn't understand jigs, and
> has no drill press.
>
> I found this, and remember it was quite a bit more $$ in an earlier
> iteration. Gets great reviews, and even comes with that pesky 35mm bit with
> carbide cutters! Seems like a helluva steal, but just interested to see if
> anyone has used one of these. They sell them everywhere, about this price:
>
> <https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-Company-KHI-HINGE-Concealed-Hinge/dp/B01JQ74FMQ>
>
> Seems he could just clamp with a couple of squeeze clamps and drill away
> after getting set up. Certainly inexpensive enough to buy for the few
> cabinets he is going to make. Would really like to try it out myself!
>
> Anyone use one of these? Thoughts? Keep in mind this isn't a production tool
> and he isn't opening a shop. He might do about 6=8 doors on this first go
> around.
>
> Robert

I have never used this jig, but when I did my usual Amazon assessment by
reading thr one-star reviews, then too-star, and so on, a few bg themes
emerged: The forstner drill bit is too dull to be used, from the start. The
design does not allow adequate shaving excavation. The plastic bearing that
aligns and locates the fostner bit soon melts (probably due to and/or
triggered by the dull fostner bit heating up).

At which point I baled out.

Joe Gwinn

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 9:47:52 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
>> >On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
>> >> > small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
>> >> > not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
>> >> > wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
>> >> > time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
>> >>
>> >> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
>> >> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
>> >> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
>> >> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.
>> >
>> >If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
>> >of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more.
>>
>> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs became
>> were even invented....
>
>Bloodletting was sufficient for quite some time also.
>
>When I get home tonight I'll stick my broom into the hole in the back of my router table
>fence and see if I am just as efficient as with my vac.

In my dictionary "sufficient" and "efficient" are two different words.

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> In my work, I rarely build more than a "one off" to replace a cabinet.
> Haven't done a kitchen full of cabinets in 20 years... don't miss it! I
> used to use a plastic jig with index lines to mark where I drilled for
> hidden hinges. Marked, then off to the drill press. My little gauge is
> long lost (see the Rockler version) and I have simply marked my doors one
> at a time since I will usually do no more than two to six doors on a replacement.
>
> But one of my amigos is going to build a few cabinets for himself and
> wants to put concealed hinges on the doors. I am used to measuring and
> for multiple doors or hardware pieces I always make a marking jig. (That
> way, if I screw up everything is wrong!) He can't measure well, doesn't
> understand jigs, and has no drill press.
>
> I found this, and remember it was quite a bit more $$ in an earlier
> iteration. Gets great reviews, and even comes with that pesky 35mm bit
> with carbide cutters! Seems like a helluva steal, but just interested to
> see if anyone has used one of these. They sell them everywhere, about this price:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-Company-KHI-HINGE-Concealed-Hinge/dp/B01JQ74FMQ
>
> Seems he could just clamp with a couple of squeeze clamps and drill away
> after getting set up. Certainly inexpensive enough to buy for the few
> cabinets he is going to make. Would really like to try it out myself!
>
> Anyone use one of these? Thoughts? Keep in mind this isn't a production
> tool and he isn't opening a shop. He might do about 6=8 doors on this first go around.
>
> Robert
>

The only concern I might have is with the cam adjustmnts that position the
jig from the stile edge of the door. That distance, normally 1/8" on euro
hinges, is critical. Too far away from the edge and the door will rub the
face frame every time the door is opened or closed.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a
>>>>>>>> few folks thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This
>>>>>>>> could be something, it could be nothing. Forstner bits
>>>>>>>> weren't meant to be used by hand, so it's hard to get a
>>>>>>>> good take on this one. On one hand I would doubt that the
>>>>>>>> home woodworker would know that drilling hard white oak
>>>>>>>> with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on
>>>>>>>> the other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling
>>>>>>>> really hard woods, small knots, or anything else. It also
>>>>>>>> doesn't warn against running your drill at high speed. I
>>>>>>>> think I will meet with him to check out the bit before he
>>>>>>>> uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly
>>>>>>> the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a test cut in some
>>>>>>> rock maple with the bit I got from Woodcraft. The holes
>>>>>>> edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it
>>>>>>> got to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a
>>>>>>> lot and stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast. But
>>>>>>> also, all the edges on this bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I
>>>>>> ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a
>>>>>> try this afternoon and report back. First impressions were
>>>>>> that it was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit
>>>>>> looks well made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>>
>>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I
>>>>> eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in doors made
>>>>> from 1 x poplar.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great
>>>>> idea, but don't always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a press and
>>>> vac hose attached.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table
>>> for.
>>>
>>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm
>>> still interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of the hole
>> will be on the fence. Then align the mark on the door to the mark on
>> the fence and that is plenty good enough. No stops needed. I have
>> cut several hundred hinge holes this way.
>
> Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar set-up,
> but I didn't mark the doors at all. Instead of marking the fence where
> the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the top/bottom of the doors.
> They all get spaced the same, so that means you don't have to even mark
> the doors.

That works too if only putting a lower and upper hinge. For taller doors
that require 3 or more hinges marking the center of the hinge location
works for me.





>
> Next time, I may put flip-stops on the fence to make it even more full
> proof.
>
>

On 1/12/2018 10:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm not following. Isn't that what the cam adjustments are for on the jig? Are you saying that they may not be sturdy enough to hold it well?

I would want to see how the cams lock to the predetermined position. If
a friction fit they could simply slip out of adjustment, cams by design
are supposed to slip over a surface. With out a hard solid stop I would
be skeptical. Not saying that this is a problem but I have bought some
Kreg jigs that were not well thought out. The Shelf pin jig for
instance. If you use more than one shelf pin jig the assembly binds. BTDT.



>
> And Mike, good thoughts on the drill bit. They sell this contraption at Woodcraft so I can go over there sometime next week and make sure the carbide bit has two little ears on it that cut as well. I remember way back when when the cheaper sets did not have that.
>
> Robert
>

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 9:37:55 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
> >On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 9:47:52 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
> >> >On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
> >> >> > small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
> >> >> > not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
> >> >> > wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
> >> >> > time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
> >> >>
> >> >> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
> >> >> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
> >> >> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
> >> >> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.
> >> >
> >> >If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
> >> >of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more.
> >>
> >> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs became
> >> were even invented....
> >
> >Bloodletting was sufficient for quite some time also.
> >
> >When I get home tonight I'll stick my broom into the hole in the back of my router table
> >fence and see if I am just as efficient as with my vac.
>
> In my dictionary "sufficient" and "efficient" are two different words.

Then what was your point in responding in the way you did? I said a vac would improve
his "efficiency" and you *disagreed*, stating that brooms were "sufficient". What were you
disagreeing with?

"The house is blue."

"I disagree. It's a ranch."

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1/15/18 11:58 PM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a
>>>>>>>>>> few folks thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This
>>>>>>>>>> could be something, it could be nothing. Forstner bits
>>>>>>>>>> weren't meant to be used by hand, so it's hard to get a
>>>>>>>>>> good take on this one. On one hand I would doubt that the
>>>>>>>>>> home woodworker would know that drilling hard white oak
>>>>>>>>>> with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on
>>>>>>>>>> the other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling
>>>>>>>>>> really hard woods, small knots, or anything else. It also
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't warn against running your drill at high speed. I
>>>>>>>>>> think I will meet with him to check out the bit before he
>>>>>>>>>> uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly
>>>>>>>>> the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a test cut in some
>>>>>>>>> rock maple with the bit I got from Woodcraft. The holes
>>>>>>>>> edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it
>>>>>>>>> got to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a
>>>>>>>>> lot and stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast. But
>>>>>>>>> also, all the edges on this bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I
>>>>>>>> ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a
>>>>>>>> try this afternoon and report back. First impressions were
>>>>>>>> that it was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit
>>>>>>>> looks well made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I
>>>>>>> eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in doors made
>>>>>>> from 1 x poplar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great
>>>>>>> idea, but don't always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a press and
>>>>>> vac hose attached.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table
>>>>> for.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm
>>>>> still interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of the hole
>>>> will be on the fence. Then align the mark on the door to the mark on
>>>> the fence and that is plenty good enough. No stops needed. I have
>>>> cut several hundred hinge holes this way.
>>>
>>> Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar set-up,
>>> but I didn't mark the doors at all. Instead of marking the fence where
>>> the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the top/bottom of the doors.
>>> They all get spaced the same, so that means you don't have to even mark
>>> the doors.
>>
>> That works too if only putting a lower and upper hinge. For taller doors
>> that require 3 or more hinges marking the center of the hinge location
>> works for me.
>>
>
> You and your tall doors!
> Ok, so you have to mark the center hinge on those you big baby. :-p
>
>

So, I visited a kinda new woodworker last night and he is doing some pretty
serious work, for a novice.
He already has a respectable collection of Festool and a collection of
larger equipment that is more entry level. Anyway he has the Kreg hinge
jig we are talking about!
He likes it, but that is all he has ever used to drill hinge holes. Yes he
has a DP but has not used it yet for anything.
His only dislike about the jig is that it gets clogged up with waste and
has to be cleaned out with each hole.
I would guess that it will be great when you are in a bind but not the
preferred method for several doors especially when you have a DP in the
shop. IMHO if you ever have the need to drill a hole for a hinge with no
access to a DP you can't miss for such a smash investment. And if you
have or get a DP you could use the bit from the jig to drill your holes.

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 11:15:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
> >> >On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
> >> >> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
> >> >> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
> >> >> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
> >> >> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
> >> >> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
> >> >> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
> >> >> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
> >> >> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
> >> >> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
> >> >cut 12 holes.
> >> >I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
> >> >Woodcraft.
> >> >The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
> >> >to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
> >> > Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
> >> >bit can be hand sharpened.
> >>
> >> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
> >> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
> >> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
> >> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
> >> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
> >
> >Awaiting the report!
> >
> >If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
> >to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
> >
> >As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
> >always live up to their (own) hype.
>
> For that many doors, you might want to look at the Rockler jig. I
> bought one but haven't used it (sorry, no report).
>
> <http://www.rockler.com/jig-it-deluxe-concealed-hinge-drilling-system>

Want to sell it to me for the cost of shipping? ;-)

Seriously, do you have a project that you bought it for?

Thanks Scott and Leon for a look at the actual jig and opinions. I am pass=
ing on your comments and pics, Scott to my boy.

I got a big charge out of reading the comments. =20

I understand that he would be better off buying a drill press, a dust colle=
ctor, and either buying a jig system or taking the time (and learning the s=
kills/accuracy) to make an adjustable table jig himself. He doesn't have th=
e money to purchase a dust collection system (and nowhere to put it). Yes,=
if he spent a little under a $1000, he would be in much better shape.

He doesn't have a drill press. He doesn't have the skills to make a jig. =
He won't invest in a dust collection system with a chip separator (needed i=
n this instance) and a cowl of some sort to collect the chips. It is reall=
y big stuff for him to be putting these hinges on in the first place! No do=
ubt this will take many more hours than it should, but he will enjoy every =
single minute being a craftsman and the bragging rights will increase as me=
asured by the time spent.

He has a drill, a broom and dust pan, since he has to move the jig with eve=
ry hole anyway I don't think debris removal in his garage will be a problem=
. He has a couple of small squeeze clamps and can read the rule on the jig=
well enough (the Kreg instructions, according to some reviews are outstand=
ing) to make this work on his little 6-8 door project.

Thanks for the good responses!

Robert

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 9:47:52 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
> >On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>
> >> > I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
> >> > small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
> >> > not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
> >> > wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
> >> > time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
> >>
> >> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
> >> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
> >> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
> >> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.
> >
> >If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
> >of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more.
>
> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs became
> were even invented....

Bloodletting was sufficient for quite some time also.

When I get home tonight I'll stick my broom into the hole in the back of my router table
fence and see if I am just as efficient as with my vac.

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:51:31 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/16/18 12:34 PM, Leon wrote:
> > On 1/16/2018 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 1/16/18 8:38 AM, Leon wrote:
> >> Every time we get further into this discussion I remember more aspects
> >> of that last, big replacement job I did.=C2=A0 Time is money for us an=
d time
> >> adds up very quickly.
> >>
> >> I think the biggest time savers for me on that jog was having the vac
> >> hose, locked in position the entire time, every time.=C2=A0 After more=
than
> >> 50 holes drilled, I had less debris on the floor than if I had drilled
> >> one one without a vac.
> >=20
> > Yeah! LOL=C2=A0 I need to figure out a way to drill those holes with ou=
t my=20
> > wife holding the DC hose at the drill site.
> >=20
>=20
> Wait, surely Festool has it's own recessed hinge boring jig with dust=20
> extraction and systainer!!
> Why don't you own it? :-p
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >> The other aspect that saved time/money was the fact that I didn't have
> >> to measure or mark anything.=C2=A0 As fast as I could set the door on =
the
> >> table, I was ready to drill.=C2=A0 The actual drilling was the slowest=
part
> >> of the entire process.
> > Yeah, and as you mentioned, stops on the fence speed up production but=
=20
> > then I found that I double handled each door because the stops only=20
> > worked for one end of the door before relocating.=C2=A0 I pretty much w=
ent=20
> > straight to using a fixed marking gauge for the top and bottoms of the=
=20
> > door and a center line mark on the fence, as I mentioned before.
> > Flip stops for two hinge doors would seem to be the answer, again as yo=
u=20
> > mentioned.
> >=20
> >=20
> >>
> >> The next slowest part of the project was putting those little screws i=
n.
> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0Last ceiling fan I installed, the blade attaching screws w=
ere connected
> >> to the bracket so all you had to do was hold the blade in place and
> >> drive the screws.=C2=A0 If they could figure a way to do that with the=
se cup
> >> hinges that would be awesome.
> >=20
> > You are in luck!=C2=A0 You still have to drill the holes, and probably =
more=20
> > precisely but take a look here.
> >=20
> > Well actually you would have to seriously step up your game to justify=
=20
> > the cost.
> >=20
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DYZ376u3bWNo
> >=20
>=20
> Only $20,000!
>=20

Well, I'm almost there.=20

The oversized table I made for my DP look very similar to the table
for that machine. I'm sure the table is a major part of the cost.

If I bought the machine a la carte I could probably get a discount.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
=20
> I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a re=
ally=20
> small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It ma=
y
> not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
> wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the=
=20
> time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.

He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix o=
f inherited stuff, garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I hav=
e given him that I think are on their last leg (compressor, leaking air hos=
e, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can borrow from me af=
ter a quick phone call to find out if he can.

He is a different kind of cat. He finished college late in life(54). He f=
ound that nearly all of his credits earned in his 20s to get him through hi=
s junior year didn't transfer, so he had the equivalent of 3 (6.5 years act=
ual) years of schooling at night along with the books/tuition while working=
. So he has college debt. His divorce (before starting back to school) le=
ft him penniless, and in debt. He remarried, has had some heart problems, =
and some way at 59 decided it was time for him to have a kid. So he is pay=
ing for college, medical bills, his son (now 5) and for schooling to get hi=
s wife certified for some nursing credentials. He drives old beaters that b=
reak down constantly. Yet strangely, overall, he is happy. Go figure.

He borrows what he needs from me and has a key to the storage/shop. No big=
deal for me as the stuff he borrows for minor home repairs I usually have =
multiples of for use in my business like a drill, sawzall, oscillating tool=
, sander, brad gun, etc. He isn't checked out on larger tools even though =
he knows (kind of) how to use some of them. He used to help me from time t=
o time if I needed the labor and he had the time, but his bad pump put an e=
nd to that. He can't work for any longer than about 6 hours on his feet an=
ymore.

BUT... Looking at your setup started my wheels rolling about a setup like t=
hat to take to the next kitchen I do. I could make a plywood chest that wou=
ld carry the shop vac and its extensions, but it could double as a miter sa=
w stand after I got it to the job. =20

Since I take a lot of stuff in boxes and containers out to my jobs anyway, =
I always have a hand truck for the bigger jobs. A chest to hold my little =
10 gallon van would be the perfect size, and even in plywood I could "truck=
" it right inside a house or garage and drop the saw on top of it.

Hmmmmm.....

Robert

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
> > small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
> > not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
> > wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
> > time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
>
> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.

If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more. At least that's
how it's working for me.

Build it with him at the same time you are building yours.

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
> >>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
> >>>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
> >>>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
> >>>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
> >>>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
> >>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
> >>>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
> >>>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
> >>>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
> >>>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
> >>> cut 12 holes.
> >>> I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
> >>> Woodcraft.
> >>> The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
> >>> to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
> >>> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
> >>> bit can be hand sharpened.
> >>
> >> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
> >> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
> >> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
> >> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
> >> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
> >
> > Awaiting the report!
> >
> > If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
> > to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
> >
> > As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
> > always live up to their (own) hype.
> >
>
> Do you have a drill press?
> It goes pretty fast with a press and vac hose attached.
>
>

Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table for.

I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm still
interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)

-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>
>
>I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>cut 12 holes.
>I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>Woodcraft.
>The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>bit can be hand sharpened.

I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
made with nickers and full carbide cutters.

Puckdropper <[email protected]> writes:
>[email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs
>> became were even invented....
>
>Tools were also hand-powered for that time too. A hand powered saw doesn't
>usually send sawdust flying across the room, so it was easier for the
>broom.

Come now - power tools have been around for more than a century and
for most of that time, there weren't portable shop vacuums, portable dust
collectors or fancy air cleaners in home or farm shops.

Just an idiot stick (c.f. Robert Heinlein's _Glory Road_).

On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>>>>>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>>>>>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>>>>>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>>>>>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>>>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>>>>>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>>>>>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>>>>>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>>>>>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>>>>> cut 12 holes.
>>>>> I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>>>>> Woodcraft.
>>>>> The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>>>>> to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>>>>> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>>>>> bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>>>> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>>>> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>>>> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>>>> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>
>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>
>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
>>> to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
>>>
>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
>>> always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>
>>
>> Do you have a drill press?
>> It goes pretty fast with a press and vac hose attached.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table for.
>
> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm still
> interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>


Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of the hole will
be on the fence. Then align the mark on the door to the mark on the
fence and that is plenty good enough. No stops needed. I have cut
several hundred hinge holes this way.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>On 1/15/18 9:21 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>
>
>Looking forward to the report.

tl;dnr The jig worked as advertised.

After removing from the blisterpack, and RTFM, I removed
the handy click-on protective cap from the bit, wiped
the thin coat of light oil and inspected the carbide cutters.

There are two full radius carbide cutters with two diamond
shaped carbide nickers leading each cutter by 90 degrees.

<http://www.lurndal.org/images/forstner_bit.jpg>

After removing the drill collar from the base, I installed the
bit and snugged the stop collar up to the ledge milled into the
shank at the correct point to produce the
correct depth-of-cut. The supplied allen wrench stores conveniently in a
snap-in space on the bottom of the base of the jig.

I clamped the stock in the tailvise, then clamped the jig to
the stock/bench, chucked the bit into the drill, installed
the guide into the base (a quarter turn locks it in place)
and drilled the hole effortlessly. The bit cut clean and
fast.

<http://www.lurndal.org/images/done_drilling.jpg>

Two holes on the jig guide a 1/16" bit to pre-drill for the
hinge screws.

<http://www.lurndal.org/images/final_hole.jpg>

The offset from the edge of the stile was exactly as specified
per the manual with the offset adjustment cams set to 5. The
cams are solid and will not shift in use.

Worth the price, at least with one hole drilled so far, I see
no reason that this wouldn't suffice for someone who builds a few
cabinets anually, and may even be more convenient than a drill press
in some cases.

[email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs
> became were even invented....

Tools were also hand-powered for that time too. A hand powered saw doesn't
usually send sawdust flying across the room, so it was easier for the
broom.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 1/12/2018 11:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/12/18 10:57 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/12/2018 10:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> I'm not following. Isn't that what the cam adjustments are for on the
>>> jig? Are you saying that they may not be sturdy enough to hold it well?
>>
>> I would want to see how the cams lock to the predetermined position.
>> If a friction fit they could simply slip out of adjustment, cams by
>> design are supposed to slip over a surface.  With out a hard solid
>> stop I would be skeptical.   Not saying that this is a problem but I
>> have bought some Kreg jigs that were not well thought out.  The Shelf
>> pin jig for instance.  If you use more than one shelf pin jig the
>> assembly binds. BTDT.
>>
>
> From the video, it looks like there's a pretty good "click" happening
> when the cam is turned.  It looks like it needs a good amount of force
> to turn.
> I don't know if that means anything, but it's just something I observed.
>
>

Yes, if it clicks into a detent setting it should be adequate.

On 1/18/2018 8:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
>>>> small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
>>>> not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
>>>> wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
>>>> time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
>>>
>>> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
>>> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
>>> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
>>> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.
>>
>> If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
>> of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more.
>
> I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs became
> were even invented....
>

And one day with years of experience and investing, my fellow wood
workers, you might have a shop vac AND a broom, like me! LOL
I can do with out a vac/DC, although I would not want to do so again,
but I could probably not do with out a boom.

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:25:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

> Next time, I may put flip-stops on the fence to make it even more full
> proof.


That's how the Blum hinge boring machines work - they have flip stops. But=
for odd sized doors or one-off cabinets I would install the plates first. =
I found that the ones we used sort of came to a point at the center. I'd =
then push the edge of the door against them in the opening with appropriate=
shim under the bottom. This left little indents that I'd then mark with a=
saddle square around to the back, which I'd then line up with the center l=
ine on the boring machine. Very quick, very accurate. I'm sure not all cu=
p hinges have this - we used the Blum brand.

JP

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 9:21:15 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.

Like MIKE, I am too! Will be good to hear from a voice you can trust.

Robert

I'm not following. Isn't that what the cam adjustments are for on the jig? =
Are you saying that they may not be sturdy enough to hold it well?

And Mike, good thoughts on the drill bit. They sell this contraption at Woo=
dcraft so I can go over there sometime next week and make sure the carbide =
bit has two little ears on it that cut as well. I remember way back when wh=
en the cheaper sets did not have that.

Robert

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 3:24:15 PM UTC-6, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

> I have never used this jig, but when I did my usual Amazon assessment by=
=20
> reading thr one-star reviews, then too-star, and so on.
>=20
> Joe Gwinn

I am glad you pointed that out. When a product only has 3% one star review=
s, and 3% 2 star reviews, I just glance a them.

After reading you post I went to them and read all the reviews. It seems t=
hat at least most want a hard use, professionally engineered, metal jig wit=
h hardened drill inserts and infinitely adjustable location controls made f=
rom metal to meet their standards. When WoodPeckers release their jigs to t=
hat standard (such as their doweling jig), they are in the $500 - $700 cost=
range, when available. For my buddy, I doubt he will do more than 6 doors=
on this project.

This is a $30 jig that includes the bit. Could there be improvements? Sur=
e. Hit that price point? Doubtful. Will any jig make everyone happy? No=
pe. BTW, reading the 4 star reviews, on most reviews I wasn't sure why the=
y gave it a 4 instead of a five as the reviewers seemed pleased. And one of=
the guys that gave it three stars said that the bit didn't hold up when us=
ing it in his router...!!

The salient points made by Leon and Mike are certainly the most pertinent. =
(Thanks, guys!)

I found that the cams have 1mm click stop movement. No reports of them not=
being adjustable enough to work well, except in one of the one star review=
s where one cabinet maker declared that sometimes it all comes down to 1/2 =
millimeter for accuracy. From a plastic jig with a hand held drill? Yeah, =
right. If it comes down to 1/2 of one millimeter (0.019") to make your pro=
jects correct when using a hand held plastic jig, then you should be doing =
brain surgery, not making cabinets. So, I will check Leon's box.

So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks thought t=
he forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it could be nothin=
g. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand, so it's hard to get a g=
ood take on this one. On one hand I would doubt that the home woodworker wo=
uld know that drilling hard white oak with this contraption by hand would b=
e a bad idea, but on the other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drill=
ing really hard woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn =
against running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to =
check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.

While I can't find anything I like better, my complaint would be different =
from both of those. It has a scales on it to enable you to measure every t=
ime for accuracy. For me, the key to a good jig is its repeatability. I d=
on't like the fact that this jig requires a manual placement each time it i=
s used to determine the offset from the top or bottom of the door. I think=
Kreg licensed this from someone that was making it as there are multiple p=
roducers of this jig. Many Chinese stores on Aliexpress have this jig and =
have had it for some time. The Chinese version looks almost exactly like th=
e Kreg but it has stop pins on it to speed the indexing and placement and c=
omes with the 1/16" drill bit. With two adjacent sides positively indexed,=
you should probably be able use just one clamp in operation, which isn't a=
vailable on the Kreg.

If my buddy was a little more trusting of his skills, I would help him do w=
hat I did when these jigs were almost impossibly expensive and still didn't=
work. First, with a bunch pf doors to do, I used my bench drill press and=
a lucite marking jig from Woodcraft. Then, a 35mm bit and a stop collar. =
Done.

These days, if I had just a few to do I would make my jig out of 1x4, with =
indexes in where I wanted them, and using the 1x4 setup as a guide, drill d=
own with a bit/stop collar setup. Yes, the jig would only be good for one s=
ize hinge from one manufacturer but would be quick to make and test. Sadly=
, he is still at the phase of his woodworking experience where he feels he =
needs exactly the right store bought tool for the job, so a two sided frame=
of 1x4 with a template centered in it would be too much for him to trust.

Thanks for the input!

Robert

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 18:56:51 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 11:15:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>> >> >On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>> >> >> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>> >> >> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>> >> >> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>> >> >> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>> >> >> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>> >> >> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>> >> >> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>> >> >> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>> >> >> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>> >> >cut 12 holes.
>> >> >I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>> >> >Woodcraft.
>> >> >The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>> >> >to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>> >> > Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>> >> >bit can be hand sharpened.
>> >>
>> >> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>> >> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>> >> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>> >> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>> >> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>> >
>> >Awaiting the report!
>> >
>> >If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
>> >to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
>> >
>> >As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
>> >always live up to their (own) hype.
>>
>> For that many doors, you might want to look at the Rockler jig. I
>> bought one but haven't used it (sorry, no report).
>>
>> <http://www.rockler.com/jig-it-deluxe-concealed-hinge-drilling-system>
>
>Want to sell it to me for the cost of shipping? ;-)
>
>Seriously, do you have a project that you bought it for?

I bought it to build some cabinets for my shop but I haven't had
enough time to even think about it. I have a lot more work to do
before I could use the cabinets, even. ...and no time for that,
either.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:

...snip...

> He doesn't have the money to purchase a dust collection system (and
> nowhere to put it).

...snip...

Actually he might.

https://i.imgur.com/d8qYrLF.jpg

The wet-dry vac cost about $50, the plywood for the cabinet cost about $30.
The foam was free. (It's an old egg crate mattress pad that I had lying
around.) The blue hose is a section from a 30' pool hose that I bought on
CL for $25. Toss in a couple of adapters and I've got way less than $150
into the system.

The white box on the right side of the miter saw is the remote that turns
on the wet-dry vac. It's velcro'd on so I can take it with me. (Read on)

When I'm not using the miter saw, I swap the shop vac hose to the white
PVC adapter on the pool hose. That 1 1/4 hose hanging over the plywood
connects to the pool hose on the other side of the shop. I use it at the
workbench for my pocket hole jig, ROS, disk sander, etc. as well as
general clean-up. (That's why the remote travels with me.)

I have another length of wet-dry vac hose that I attach to the main one for
use with my band saw, router table fence, combo sander, etc. (That's why the
remote travels with me.)

I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
> >On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
> >> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
> >> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
> >> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
> >> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
> >> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
> >> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
> >> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
> >> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
> >> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
> >>
> >
> >I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
> >cut 12 holes.
> >I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
> >Woodcraft.
> >The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
> >to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
> > Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
> >bit can be hand sharpened.
>
> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.

Awaiting the report!

If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.

As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
always live up to their (own) hype.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 11:15:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>> >On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> >> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>> >> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>> >> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>> >> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>> >> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>> >> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>> >> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>> >> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>> >> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>> >> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>> >cut 12 holes.
>> >I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>> >Woodcraft.
>> >The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>> >to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>> > Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>> >bit can be hand sharpened.
>>
>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>
>Awaiting the report!
>
>If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
>to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
>
>As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
>always live up to their (own) hype.

For that many doors, you might want to look at the Rockler jig. I
bought one but haven't used it (sorry, no report).

<http://www.rockler.com/jig-it-deluxe-concealed-hinge-drilling-system>

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:02:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>> > I set this up about 6 months ago and it still makes me smile. I have a really
>> > small shop and keeping it clean keeps it from getting even smaller. It may
>> > not look like much, but compared *nothing* or compared to dragging the
>> > wet-dry vac around and hooking it up to whatever tool I was using at the
>> > time, it's an unbelievably huge improvement.
>>
>> He doesn't have enough equipment to warrant even that. His gear is a mix of inherited stuff,
>> garage sale stuff, broken stuff, a few of my tools I have given him that I think are on their last
>> leg (compressor, leaking air hose, saw with a bad guard and bearings), or anything he can
>> borrow from me after a quick phone call to find out if he can.
>
>If he's working wood, he's making saw dust. A vac in a cabinet (vented in the rear) and a couple
>of extension hoses will improve his efficiency and increase his desire to do more.

I don't agree - brooms were sufficient for centuries before shop-vacs became
were even invented....

On 1/11/18 4:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> In my work, I rarely build more than a "one off" to replace a
> cabinet. Haven't done a kitchen full of cabinets in 20 years...
> don't miss it! I used to use a plastic jig with index lines to mark
> where I drilled for hidden hinges. Marked, then off to the drill
> press. My little gauge is long lost (see the Rockler version) and I
> have simply marked my doors one at a time since I will usually do no
> more than two to six doors on a replacement.
>
> But one of my amigos is going to build a few cabinets for himself and
> wants to put concealed hinges on the doors. I am used to measuring
> and for multiple doors or hardware pieces I always make a marking
> jig. (That way, if I screw up everything is wrong!) He can't measure
> well, doesn't understand jigs, and has no drill press.
>
> I found this, and remember it was quite a bit more $$ in an earlier
> iteration. Gets great reviews, and even comes with that pesky 35mm
> bit with carbide cutters! Seems like a helluva steal, but just
> interested to see if anyone has used one of these. They sell them
> everywhere, about this price:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-Company-KHI-HINGE-Concealed-Hinge/dp/B01JQ74FMQ
>
> Seems he could just clamp with a couple of squeeze clamps and drill
> away after getting set up. Certainly inexpensive enough to buy for
> the few cabinets he is going to make. Would really like to try it out
> myself!
>
> Anyone use one of these? Thoughts? Keep in mind this isn't a
> production tool and he isn't opening a shop. He might do about 6=8
> doors on this first go around.
>
> Robert
>

*IF* it's a great bit, it might be worth the price to just try it out.
I bought a really nice cutting bit and use my small (portable) drill
press set up with stops.
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/forstner-bit-carbide-tipped-35mm
That's what I use, with a shop vac to suck up the chips, when I have o
drill a lot of these.
That jig seems like a good way to go about it when you only have a few
doors and don't already own a good bit.
I can't imagine that bit being sharp for very long, but again, if you're
only doing a few doors, ok.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/12/18 8:43 AM, Leon wrote:
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In my work, I rarely build more than a "one off" to replace a
>> cabinet. Haven't done a kitchen full of cabinets in 20 years...
>> don't miss it! I used to use a plastic jig with index lines to
>> mark where I drilled for hidden hinges. Marked, then off to the
>> drill press. My little gauge is long lost (see the Rockler
>> version) and I have simply marked my doors one at a time since I
>> will usually do no more than two to six doors on a replacement.
>>
>> But one of my amigos is going to build a few cabinets for himself
>> and wants to put concealed hinges on the doors. I am used to
>> measuring and for multiple doors or hardware pieces I always make a
>> marking jig. (That way, if I screw up everything is wrong!) He
>> can't measure well, doesn't understand jigs, and has no drill
>> press.
>>
>> I found this, and remember it was quite a bit more $$ in an
>> earlier iteration. Gets great reviews, and even comes with that
>> pesky 35mm bit with carbide cutters! Seems like a helluva steal,
>> but just interested to see if anyone has used one of these. They
>> sell them everywhere, about this price:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-Company-KHI-HINGE-Concealed-Hinge/dp/B01JQ74FMQ
>>
>>
>>
Seems he could just clamp with a couple of squeeze clamps and drill away
>> after getting set up. Certainly inexpensive enough to buy for the
>> few cabinets he is going to make. Would really like to try it out
>> myself!
>>
>> Anyone use one of these? Thoughts? Keep in mind this isn't a
>> production tool and he isn't opening a shop. He might do about 6=8
>> doors on this first go around.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> The only concern I might have is with the cam adjustmnts that
> position the jig from the stile edge of the door. That distance,
> normally 1/8" on euro hinges, is critical. Too far away from the
> edge and the door will rub the face frame every time the door is
> opened or closed.
>

I watched the promo video on that link.
I guess the pros for it are the depth stop and horizontal guide, the
guide holes for the hinge screws, and the fact that the 35mm bit is
quickly removable. BTW, it *is* the same style of bit I have, with the
carbide cutters that slice a the circumference of the hole before
hogging out the inside-- so I guess that's another pro.

The cons in my mind...
-The have an adjustable edge stop, why no integrated vertical
positioning stop?
-Two clamps!? I mean, I know there's no way to clamp the center of the
thing. My guess is, after about 3 holes, you're going to quit using one
or both clamps. Once the 35mm bit enters the surface of the door, it's
not going anywhere.

In any case, considering I high quality 35mm bit can be 30 bucks, alone,
I think it would be great for someone who's not real confident at
drilling for cup hinges. I'm not sure that would save you or I any time
or accuracy. I can use a marking guide and have door 6 hole locations
marked on the door by the time I lined that thing up to a mark. Then I
can have the first cup hole drilled, free hand (using the height of the
bit as a depth guide) before I'd have those two clamped attached. That
would get me through 3 or 4 doors, until I decided I wanted to set up a
drill press station.

If someone were buying this to replace hinges in their entire kitchen,
they'd be better off getting a drill press and setting up a station with
stops. You can get an able bench-top press for well under $100.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/12/18 10:57 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/12/2018 10:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> I'm not following. Isn't that what the cam adjustments are for on the
>> jig? Are you saying that they may not be sturdy enough to hold it well?
>
> I would want to see how the cams lock to the predetermined position.  If
> a friction fit they could simply slip out of adjustment, cams by design
> are supposed to slip over a surface.  With out a hard solid stop I would
> be skeptical.   Not saying that this is a problem but I have bought some
> Kreg jigs that were not well thought out.  The Shelf pin jig for
> instance.  If you use more than one shelf pin jig the assembly binds.
> BTDT.
>

From the video, it looks like there's a pretty good "click" happening
when the cam is turned. It looks like it needs a good amount of force
to turn.
I don't know if that means anything, but it's just something I observed.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/12/18 10:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm not following. Isn't that what the cam adjustments are for on the
> jig? Are you saying that they may not be sturdy enough to hold it
> well?
>
> And Mike, good thoughts on the drill bit. They sell this contraption
> at Woodcraft so I can go over there sometime next week and make sure
> the carbide bit has two little ears on it that cut as well. I
> remember way back when when the cheaper sets did not have that.
>
> Robert
>

It does have the "ears" on the edges.
https://www.kregtool.com/store/c61/hardware-installation-accessories/p407/35mm-concealed-hinge-jig-bit/
Considering they sell the replacement bit for 17 bucks, it makes me
wonder how long it would stay sharp.

The expensive bit I have did noticeably dull about 2/3 into the project
for which I bought it. The "ears" didn't dull and still cut perfectly
clean edges, but the flat "hogging" cutting edges seemed to slow down
quite a bit.
At least they're flat and can be resharpened on the fly.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>

I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
cut 12 holes.
I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
Woodcraft.
The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
bit can be hand sharpened.

>
> If my buddy was a little more trusting of his skills, I would help
> him do what I did when these jigs were almost impossibly expensive
> and still didn't work. First, with a bunch pf doors to do, I used
> my bench drill press and a lucite marking jig from Woodcraft. Then,
> a 35mm bit and a stop collar. Done.
>
> These days, if I had just a few to do I would make my jig out of
> 1x4, with indexes in where I wanted them, and using the 1x4 setup as
> a guide, drill down with a bit/stop collar setup. Yes, the jig would
> only be good for one size hinge from one manufacturer but would be
> quick to make and test. Sadly, he is still at the phase of his
> woodworking experience where he feels he needs exactly the right
> store bought tool for the job, so a two sided frame of 1x4 with a
> template centered in it would be too much for him to trust.
>

If I had a woodworking school or taught it, after learning proper tool
use, I would spend the next sessions in teaching how to build 10 or 12
essential jigs. And I wouldn't show them any up front-- they'd have to
make their first attempts with their minds and intuition.

No building anything until they learned to build simple jigs.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/15/18 9:21 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>
>>
>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>> cut 12 holes.
>> I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>> Woodcraft.
>> The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>> to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>> bit can be hand sharpened.
>
> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>

Looking forward to the report.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>>>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>>>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>>>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>>>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>>>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>>>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>>>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>>>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>>> cut 12 holes.
>>> I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>>> Woodcraft.
>>> The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>>> to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>>> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>>> bit can be hand sharpened.
>>
>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>
> Awaiting the report!
>
> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
> to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
>
> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
> always live up to their (own) hype.
>

Do you have a drill press?
It goes pretty fast with a press and vac hose attached.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/15/18 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a few folks
>>>>>> thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This could be something, it
>>>>>> could be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be used by hand,
>>>>>> so it's hard to get a good take on this one. On one hand I would
>>>>>> doubt that the home woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>>>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on the
>>>>>> other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling really hard
>>>>>> woods, small knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn against
>>>>>> running your drill at high speed. I think I will meet with him to
>>>>>> check out the bit before he uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly the thing can
>>>>> cut 12 holes.
>>>>> I just made a test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>>>>> Woodcraft.
>>>>> The holes edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it got
>>>>> to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and stalled.
>>>>> Of course, I may be going too fast. But also, all the edges on this
>>>>> bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I ordered the
>>>> Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a try this
>>>> afternoon and report back. First impressions were that it
>>>> was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit looks well
>>>> made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>
>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>
>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I eventually will need
>>> to install 40-ish hinges in doors made from 1 x poplar.
>>>
>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great idea, but don't
>>> always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>
>>
>> Do you have a drill press?
>> It goes pretty fast with a press and vac hose attached.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table for.
>
> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm still
> interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>

It would be nice to have in a toolbox in the van for just such an
occasion.
IF it's all it's cracked up to be.
I don't like jigs that make the job slower than I could do it without
the jig. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a
>>>>>>> few folks thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This
>>>>>>> could be something, it could be nothing. Forstner bits
>>>>>>> weren't meant to be used by hand, so it's hard to get a
>>>>>>> good take on this one. On one hand I would doubt that the
>>>>>>> home woodworker would know that drilling hard white oak
>>>>>>> with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on
>>>>>>> the other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling
>>>>>>> really hard woods, small knots, or anything else. It also
>>>>>>> doesn't warn against running your drill at high speed. I
>>>>>>> think I will meet with him to check out the bit before he
>>>>>>> uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly
>>>>>> the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a test cut in some
>>>>>> rock maple with the bit I got from Woodcraft. The holes
>>>>>> edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it
>>>>>> got to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a
>>>>>> lot and stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast. But
>>>>>> also, all the edges on this bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I
>>>>> ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a
>>>>> try this afternoon and report back. First impressions were
>>>>> that it was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit
>>>>> looks well made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>>
>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>
>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I
>>>> eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in doors made
>>>> from 1 x poplar.
>>>>
>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great
>>>> idea, but don't always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a press and
>>> vac hose attached.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table
>> for.
>>
>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm
>> still interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>>
>
>
> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of the hole
> will be on the fence. Then align the mark on the door to the mark on
> the fence and that is plenty good enough. No stops needed. I have
> cut several hundred hinge holes this way.

Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar set-up,
but I didn't mark the doors at all. Instead of marking the fence where
the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the top/bottom of the doors.
They all get spaced the same, so that means you don't have to even mark
the doors.

Next time, I may put flip-stops on the fence to make it even more full
proof.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/15/18 11:58 PM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some merit as a
>>>>>>>>> few folks thought the forstner bits weren't sharp. This
>>>>>>>>> could be something, it could be nothing. Forstner bits
>>>>>>>>> weren't meant to be used by hand, so it's hard to get a
>>>>>>>>> good take on this one. On one hand I would doubt that the
>>>>>>>>> home woodworker would know that drilling hard white oak
>>>>>>>>> with this contraption by hand would be a bad idea, but on
>>>>>>>>> the other Kreg doesn't provide any warning about drilling
>>>>>>>>> really hard woods, small knots, or anything else. It also
>>>>>>>>> doesn't warn against running your drill at high speed. I
>>>>>>>>> think I will meet with him to check out the bit before he
>>>>>>>>> uses it if he gets the jig at WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but surly
>>>>>>>> the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a test cut in some
>>>>>>>> rock maple with the bit I got from Woodcraft. The holes
>>>>>>>> edges, cut by the pointed wings, were pristine. When it
>>>>>>>> got to the flat cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a
>>>>>>>> lot and stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast. But
>>>>>>>> also, all the edges on this bit can be hand sharpened.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so I
>>>>>>> ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll give it a
>>>>>>> try this afternoon and report back. First impressions were
>>>>>>> that it was definitely worth the price - the forstner bit
>>>>>>> looks well made with nickers and full carbide cutters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity. I
>>>>>> eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in doors made
>>>>>> from 1 x poplar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a great
>>>>>> idea, but don't always live up to their (own) hype.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a press and
>>>>> vac hose attached.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide table
>>>> for.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but I'm
>>>> still interested in the jig - as apparently are you. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of the hole
>>> will be on the fence. Then align the mark on the door to the mark on
>>> the fence and that is plenty good enough. No stops needed. I have
>>> cut several hundred hinge holes this way.
>>
>> Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar set-up,
>> but I didn't mark the doors at all. Instead of marking the fence where
>> the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the top/bottom of the doors.
>> They all get spaced the same, so that means you don't have to even mark
>> the doors.
>
> That works too if only putting a lower and upper hinge. For taller doors
> that require 3 or more hinges marking the center of the hinge location
> works for me.
>

You and your tall doors!
Ok, so you have to mark the center hinge on those you big baby. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/16/18 8:38 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 1/15/18 11:58 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE-
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott
>>>>>>>> Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some
>>>>>>>>>>> merit as a few folks thought the forstner bits
>>>>>>>>>>> weren't sharp. This could be something, it could
>>>>>>>>>>> be nothing. Forstner bits weren't meant to be
>>>>>>>>>>> used by hand, so it's hard to get a good take on
>>>>>>>>>>> this one. On one hand I would doubt that the home
>>>>>>>>>>> woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>>>>>>>>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad
>>>>>>>>>>> idea, but on the other Kreg doesn't provide any
>>>>>>>>>>> warning about drilling really hard woods, small
>>>>>>>>>>> knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn
>>>>>>>>>>> against running your drill at high speed. I
>>>>>>>>>>> think I will meet with him to check out the bit
>>>>>>>>>>> before he uses it if he gets the jig at
>>>>>>>>>>> WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but
>>>>>>>>>> surly the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a
>>>>>>>>>> test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>>>>>>>>>> Woodcraft. The holes edges, cut by the pointed
>>>>>>>>>> wings, were pristine. When it got to the flat
>>>>>>>>>> cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and
>>>>>>>>>> stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast. But
>>>>>>>>>> also, all the edges on this bit can be hand
>>>>>>>>>> sharpened.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so
>>>>>>>>> I ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday. I'll
>>>>>>>>> give it a try this afternoon and report back. First
>>>>>>>>> impressions were that it was definitely worth the
>>>>>>>>> price - the forstner bit looks well made with nickers
>>>>>>>>> and full carbide cutters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity.
>>>>>>>> I eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in
>>>>>>>> doors made from 1 x poplar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a
>>>>>>>> great idea, but don't always live up to their (own)
>>>>>>>> hype.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a
>>>>>>> press and vac hose attached.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide
>>>>>> table for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but
>>>>>> I'm still interested in the jig - as apparently are you.
>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of
>>>>> the hole will be on the fence. Then align the mark on the
>>>>> door to the mark on the fence and that is plenty good enough.
>>>>> No stops needed. I have cut several hundred hinge holes this
>>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar
>>>> set-up, but I didn't mark the doors at all. Instead of marking
>>>> the fence where the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the
>>>> top/bottom of the doors. They all get spaced the same, so that
>>>> means you don't have to even mark the doors.
>>>
>>> That works too if only putting a lower and upper hinge. For
>>> taller doors that require 3 or more hinges marking the center of
>>> the hinge location works for me.
>>>
>>
>> You and your tall doors! Ok, so you have to mark the center hinge
>> on those you big baby. :-p
>>
>>
>
> So, I visited a kinda new woodworker last night and he is doing some
> pretty serious work, for a novice. He already has a respectable
> collection of Festool and a collection of larger equipment that is
> more entry level. Anyway he has the Kreg hinge jig we are talking
> about! He likes it, but that is all he has ever used to drill hinge
> holes. Yes he has a DP but has not used it yet for anything. His only
> dislike about the jig is that it gets clogged up with waste and has
> to be cleaned out with each hole. I would guess that it will be great
> when you are in a bind but not the preferred method for several doors
> especially when you have a DP in the shop. IMHO if you ever have the
> need to drill a hole for a hinge with no access to a DP you can't
> miss for such a smash investment. And if you have or get a DP you
> could use the bit from the jig to drill your holes.
>

Every time we get further into this discussion I remember more aspects
of that last, big replacement job I did. Time is money for us and time
adds up very quickly.

I think the biggest time savers for me on that jog was having the vac
hose, locked in position the entire time, every time. After more than
50 holes drilled, I had less debris on the floor than if I had drilled
one one without a vac.

The other aspect that saved time/money was the fact that I didn't have
to measure or mark anything. As fast as I could set the door on the
table, I was ready to drill. The actual drilling was the slowest part
of the entire process.

The next slowest part of the project was putting those little screws in.
Last ceiling fan I installed, the blade attaching screws were connected
to the bracket so all you had to do was hold the blade in place and
drive the screws. If they could figure a way to do that with these cup
hinges that would be awesome.

Anyway, if you are doing dozens of these to make money, I wouldn't ever
consider that jig. But like you said, if you're just doing several or
are doing it at home during your leisure, then yeah, it's an awesome tool.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/16/18 12:34 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/16/2018 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/16/18 8:38 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Every time we get further into this discussion I remember more aspects
>> of that last, big replacement job I did.  Time is money for us and time
>> adds up very quickly.
>>
>> I think the biggest time savers for me on that jog was having the vac
>> hose, locked in position the entire time, every time.  After more than
>> 50 holes drilled, I had less debris on the floor than if I had drilled
>> one one without a vac.
>
> Yeah! LOL  I need to figure out a way to drill those holes with out my
> wife holding the DC hose at the drill site.
>

Wait, surely Festool has it's own recessed hinge boring jig with dust
extraction and systainer!!
Why don't you own it? :-p



>> The other aspect that saved time/money was the fact that I didn't have
>> to measure or mark anything.  As fast as I could set the door on the
>> table, I was ready to drill.  The actual drilling was the slowest part
>> of the entire process.
> Yeah, and as you mentioned, stops on the fence speed up production but
> then I found that I double handled each door because the stops only
> worked for one end of the door before relocating.  I pretty much went
> straight to using a fixed marking gauge for the top and bottoms of the
> door and a center line mark on the fence, as I mentioned before.
> Flip stops for two hinge doors would seem to be the answer, again as you
> mentioned.
>
>
>>
>> The next slowest part of the project was putting those little screws in.
>>   Last ceiling fan I installed, the blade attaching screws were connected
>> to the bracket so all you had to do was hold the blade in place and
>> drive the screws.  If they could figure a way to do that with these cup
>> hinges that would be awesome.
>
> You are in luck!  You still have to drill the holes, and probably more
> precisely but take a look here.
>
> Well actually you would have to seriously step up your game to justify
> the cost.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ376u3bWNo
>

Only $20,000!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/16/2018 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/16/18 8:38 AM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 1/15/18 11:58 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/18 2:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/2018 1:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE-
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/15/18 1:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:21:15 AM UTC-5, Scott
>>>>>>>>> Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/12/18 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So Mike, your observation seems to have some
>>>>>>>>>>>> merit as a few folks thought the forstner bits
>>>>>>>>>>>> weren't sharp. This could be something, it could
>>>>>>>>>>>> be nothing.  Forstner bits weren't meant to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> used by hand, so it's hard to get a good take on
>>>>>>>>>>>> this one. On one hand I would doubt that the home
>>>>>>>>>>>> woodworker would know that drilling hard white
>>>>>>>>>>>> oak with this contraption by hand would be a bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> idea, but on the other Kreg doesn't provide any
>>>>>>>>>>>> warning about drilling really hard woods, small
>>>>>>>>>>>> knots, or anything else. It also doesn't warn
>>>>>>>>>>>> against running your drill at high speed.  I think I will
>>>>>>>>>>>> meet with him to check out the bit
>>>>>>>>>>>> before he uses it if he gets the jig at
>>>>>>>>>>>> WoodCraft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suspected that the bit might not be the best, but
>>>>>>>>>>> surly the thing can cut 12 holes. I just made a
>>>>>>>>>>> test cut in some rock maple with the bit I got from
>>>>>>>>>>> Woodcraft. The holes edges, cut by the pointed
>>>>>>>>>>> wings, were pristine.  When it got to the flat
>>>>>>>>>>> cutting edges for hogging, it slowed down a lot and
>>>>>>>>>>> stalled. Of course, I may be going too fast.  But also, all
>>>>>>>>>>> the edges on this bit can be hand
>>>>>>>>>>> sharpened.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have a couple of cabinet doors that need hinges, so
>>>>>>>>>> I ordered the Kreg jig, it arrived yesterday.   I'll
>>>>>>>>>> give it a try this afternoon and report back.   First
>>>>>>>>>> impressions were that it was definitely worth the
>>>>>>>>>> price - the forstner bit looks well made with nickers
>>>>>>>>>> and full carbide cutters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Awaiting the report!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If possible, please include your opinion on longevity.
>>>>>>>>> I eventually will need to install 40-ish hinges in
>>>>>>>>> doors made from 1 x poplar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As Leon has mentioned, Kreg jigs typically look like a
>>>>>>>>> great idea, but don't always live up to their (own)
>>>>>>>>> hype.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you have a drill press? It goes pretty fast with a
>>>>>>>> press and vac hose attached.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, a bench-top DP, for which I made a 18" deep x 24" wide
>>>>>>> table for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure it will work with a couple of stops attached, but
>>>>>>> I'm still interested in the jig - as apparently are you.
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just attach a fence to the DP and mark where the center of
>>>>>> the hole will be on the fence.  Then align the mark on the
>>>>>> door to the mark on the fence and that is plenty good enough.
>>>>>> No stops needed.  I have cut several hundred hinge holes this
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last full kitchen hinge replacement job I did, I used similar
>>>>> set-up, but I didn't mark the doors at all.  Instead of marking
>>>>> the fence where the hinge goes, you mark the fence for the
>>>>> top/bottom of the doors. They all get spaced the same, so that
>>>>> means you don't have to even mark the doors.
>>>>
>>>> That works too if only putting a lower and upper hinge.  For
>>>> taller doors that require 3 or more hinges marking the  center of
>>>> the hinge location works for me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You and your tall doors! Ok, so you have to mark the center hinge
>>> on those you big baby.    :-p
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So, I visited a kinda new woodworker last night and he is doing some
>> pretty serious work, for a novice. He already has a respectable
>> collection of Festool  and a collection of larger equipment that is
>> more entry level.    Anyway he has the Kreg hinge jig we are talking
>> about! He likes it, but that is all he has ever used to drill hinge
>> holes. Yes he has a DP but has not used it yet for anything. His only
>> dislike about the jig is that it gets clogged up with waste and has
>> to be cleaned out with each hole. I would guess that it will be great
>> when you are in a bind but not the preferred method for several doors
>> especially when you have a DP in the shop.  IMHO if you ever have the
>> need to drill a hole for a hinge with no access to a DP you can't
>> miss for such a smash investment.   And if you have or get a DP you
>> could use the bit from the jig to drill your holes.
>>
>
> Every time we get further into this discussion I remember more aspects
> of that last, big replacement job I did.  Time is money for us and time
> adds up very quickly.
>
> I think the biggest time savers for me on that jog was having the vac
> hose, locked in position the entire time, every time.  After more than
> 50 holes drilled, I had less debris on the floor than if I had drilled
> one one without a vac.

Yeah! LOL I need to figure out a way to drill those holes with out my
wife holding the DC hose at the drill site.


>
> The other aspect that saved time/money was the fact that I didn't have
> to measure or mark anything.  As fast as I could set the door on the
> table, I was ready to drill.  The actual drilling was the slowest part
> of the entire process.
Yeah, and as you mentioned, stops on the fence speed up production but
then I found that I double handled each door because the stops only
worked for one end of the door before relocating. I pretty much went
straight to using a fixed marking gauge for the top and bottoms of the
door and a center line mark on the fence, as I mentioned before.
Flip stops for two hinge doors would seem to be the answer, again as you
mentioned.


>
> The next slowest part of the project was putting those little screws in.
>  Last ceiling fan I installed, the blade attaching screws were connected
> to the bracket so all you had to do was hold the blade in place and
> drive the screws.  If they could figure a way to do that with these cup
> hinges that would be awesome.

You are in luck! You still have to drill the holes, and probably more
precisely but take a look here.

Well actually you would have to seriously step up your game to justify
the cost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ376u3bWNo


>
> Anyway, if you are doing dozens of these to make money, I wouldn't ever
> consider that jig.  But like you said, if you're just doing several or
> are doing it at home during your leisure, then yeah, it's an awesome tool.
>
>