Tuning Up A Century Old Dresser - With Roller Guides

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 10:07:29 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> >> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> >>>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides?
> >>>>>> In either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
> >>>>> the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
> >>>>> sagging
> >>>>> left
> >>>>> to right as well as front to back.
> >>>>
> >>>> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
> >>>> in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
> >>>> center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if
> >>>> not, slack off the last two, add another one (two more total)
> >>>> between
> >>>> them and center, then tighten the loosened one.
> >>>
> >>> Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
> >>> response to dpb's post...
> >>>
> >>> I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three
> >>> spots, completely closing the gap along the back. The front and
> >>> sides of the bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I
> >>> placed a 36" straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the
> >>> drawers and measured the gap between the straight edge and the
> >>> bottom of the
> >>> drawer
> >>> at the center of the bottom.
> >>>
> >>> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
> >>
> >> And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped?
> >> Sag disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in
> >> the grooves or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the
> >> clamps THEN pushing.
> >
> > OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood
> > as can be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.
> >
> > Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the
> > grooves and can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.
> >
> > Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
> > simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to
> > eliminate the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that
> > your "simplest fix" of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is
> > going to flatten the 1/2"
> > sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of
> > the bottom but not the center of the bottom.
>
> Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
> least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
> through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

I understand that you are trying to help, but it appears that you aren't
quite grasping the situation. That is completely understandable, because
you haven't actually seen/touched the drawers.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but let me try it this way:

No amount of edge related reattachment is going to force the bottom of
drawers to flatten out. There is far to much "tension" in the bow for that
to work. Even if I push down in the center to remove most of the bow, there
is still some waviness out towards the sides.

Maybe, just maybe, if I flattened the bottom by sandwiching it between flat
pieces of stock and then added a *substantial* number of screws around the
perimeter, that might hold it, but I'm not going to try that for 2 reasons:

1 - I still think the wood will win
2 - I'm not going to butcher the drawers by adding a multitude of screws.

If I'm going to have to alter the drawers, I'll just replace the bottoms and
try to finish them as close to matching as possible.

>
> The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
> reasons...
>
> 1. The grooves are wider than the bottom is thick. If that is the case,
> pushing the bottom flat and gluing in a few small wedges into the too wide
> groove should fix it.

>
> 2. If the grooves are not wider than the bottom is thick then the drawer
> sides have moved out of vertical and possibly parallel. Is the distance
> between the sides exactly the same at both top and bottom all along their
> length?

There are at least 2 more possibilities, probably a combination of both. I
list these in no particular order:

- Obviously, years of weight on a 36" x 18" piece of 1/4" wood (or even
plywood) could cause considerable warpage. I can't speak to the contents
of the drawers over the years, but anything other more substantial than
linens could certainly have warped the bottoms.

- The bottom side of the drawer bottoms are unfinished, the tops are finished
with what I assume is varnish. I can only assume (I'm no expert by any means)
that the raw bottom would have absorbed more moisture over the years, resulting
in swelling/uneven movement.

Add weight to a "wet" board and you're exacerbating the problem

Bottom line, and I know you'd agree if you saw the drawers, the bottoms are
bowed beyond the point where edge attachments are going to flatten them.

>> >The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
>> >drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
>> >to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
>> >
>> >In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
>> >to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
>> >be most welcome.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
>> from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large < 1 1/2 inch >
>> hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
>> stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
>> ; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
>> and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
>> looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
>> The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
>> - - you might have better options with a solid antique.
>> John T.
>>
>
>That's a consideration. Thanks


The hardwood brace/support also serves to strengthen
the drawer structure somewhat - joining the drawer-front
to the drawer back at the center.
All the other discussion about just reversing the drawer-bottom
curve, without adding bracing - seems like it might be temporary ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>>>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>>>>
>>>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>>>>
>>>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>>>>
>>>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>>
>>> On 4/13/2016 10:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>> I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".
>>
>> You'd be wrong, veneer is not plywood. Veneer becomes plywood when two
>> or more sheets of it are glued together,
>
> No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
> That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
> beleive that, go ask the APA.
>
> John
>

Agreed and IIRC. Plywood always has an odd number of ply's.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 10:58:18 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 04/09/2016 8:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> ...
>
> > The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> > drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> > to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
> >
> > http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU
> >
> > I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
> > Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?
> >
> > http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab
> >
> > In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
> > to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
> > be most welcome.
> ...
>
> As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
> so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
> captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
> drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
> structural modifications; two suggestions.
>
> 1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
> small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
> re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
> drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
> not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
> bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...
>
> 2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
> unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
> were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
> obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
> fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
> then insert new between present locations.

Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
kind of bowl shape.

Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
center sag.

>
> Btw, the knob kickers can usually be fixed by a strategic insert of a
> small patch inserted in the necessary location to provide a new "bite"
> surface. I didn't look at all the pictures but have had a number of
> these in the past when the SHMBO ran a small antiques booth in TN and
> worked over a lot of pieces for her...that was a "trick" taught me by
> Lonnie Bird in one of his seminars many, many years ago, now... :)
>

For now I used the standard glue and toothpick methods and I was able to
crank the bolts down really tight.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 1:28:44 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:

> I suppose your last option may be to remove the panel, moisten the raw (b=
ottom) side for a day or so, then allow to dry in a "clamped" reverse curve=
d position (over correct the curve, a bit), to correct the bowing... and ho=
pe that does the trick. I would suspect the wood is air dried, but sometim=
es old "cured" air dried wood acts as if it's kiln dried and is not always =
as bendable/reshapeable as new/newer air dried wood. I don't think you wou=
ld damage the panel if you gave this a try.

If you do give this a try, then, as you're clamping the panel, listen close=
ly for any small, minute sounds of cracking. Tiny cracking sounds indicate=
it's not bending properly, i.e., not bending as typical, as readily as, ai=
r dried lumber does.... or as steam bent lumber does. Even trying to steam=
bend old cured air dried lumber doesn't always work.... you can hear small=
cracking sounds, when trying to steam bend old cured air dried lumber. It=
doesn't steam bend properly, similarly as when trying to steam bend kiln d=
ried lumber.

The bow in your panel doesn't appear to be too significant. You shouldn't=
have to recurve, over correct, the bowing too much, so a wet-bending optio=
n may work.

Sonny

On 4/12/2016 10:46 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.

That is very often lumber core, not plywood.


>
> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.

Actually I think it does.

>
> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.

Apple ply is an American version of Baltic birch plywood. Hard wood
veneers through out and each is running 90 degrees to the next.


>
> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>
> You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
> ply.
>
> I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
> hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
> their waterproof glue for all uses.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>
>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>
>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>
>> John
>>

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>
> So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag?

No, I'm saying there is 3/8" sag on one drawer and 1/2" sag on the other.

> Based on a prior post
> where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.
>
> I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.
>

I wouldn't either, but that's not what I have.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:30:20 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
> > Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?
> >
> > http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab
>
> > In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't
> > want to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them
> > would be most welcome.
>
> Is this picture of the front of the drawer? If so, it appears to have
> a molded edge that extends slightly beyond the front; is that correct?
> Is the bottom flush to the bottom of the drawer front; i.e., nor set into a groove?

It's a close up of the previous picture, which is the back of the drawer showing the gap and (barely) the 3 nails "holding" the back of the bottom
into the back panel of the drawer box.

Here's the full back:

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

Now zoom in to the left of the center nail:

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

>
> Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

Yes, with 3 nails as seen in the picture if the full back.

>
> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging left
to right as well as front to back.

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> >> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
> >>>> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
> >>>
> >>> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
> >>> the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
> >>> sagging
> >>> left
> >>> to right as well as front to back.
> >>
> >> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
> >> in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
> >> center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
> >> slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between
> >> them and center, then tighten the loosened one.
> >
> > Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
> > response to dpb's post...
> >
> > I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
> > completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
> > bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
> > straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
> > measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the
> > drawer
> > at the center of the bottom.
> >
> > 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>
> And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped? Sag
> disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in the grooves
> or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the clamps THEN pushing.

OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood as can
be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.

Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the grooves and
can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.

Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to eliminate
the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that your "simplest fix"
of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is going to flatten the 1/2"
sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of the
bottom but not the center of the bottom.

When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.

Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.

Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.

Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.

You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
ply.

I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
their waterproof glue for all uses.

Martin


On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
> [email protected]:
>
>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>
> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>
> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>
> John
>

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 8:32:56 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw bo=
ttom
> and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down d=
ead=20
> man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting t=
he=20
> curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spread=
the
> pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.
>=20
> Thoughts?

It doesn't matter what technique you use to reverse (over correct) the bow/=
curve. If need be, try several techniques, see which one might work the b=
est.

Again, as you bend it (slowly), listen for small/tiny cracking sounds. Be=
nd the wood slowly (over a few hours, maybe), rewetting it periodically (if=
need be), if those small cracking sounds are heard. Old air dried cured =
wood will act like kiln dried wood.... sometimes difficult to rebend/reshap=
e, with either wet or steam bending. In these difficult cases, you heard =
those small cracking sounds, as it's being bent/shaped.

Sonny

Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote:
> I know Leon. Baltic Burch is from the Soviet Union / aka Russia.
> It is a high quality board.
>
> Martin
>
Well, actually a high quality plywood. :-).

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:02:34 AM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
> On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 8:32:56 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw =
bottom
> > and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down=
dead=20
> > man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting=
the=20
> > curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spre=
ad the
> > pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.
> >=20
> > Thoughts?
>=20
> It doesn't matter what technique you use to reverse (over correct) the bo=
w/curve. If need be, try several techniques, see which one might work the=
best.
>=20
> Again, as you bend it (slowly), listen for small/tiny cracking sounds. =
Bend the wood slowly (over a few hours, maybe), rewetting it periodically (=
if need be), if those small cracking sounds are heard. Old air dried cure=
d wood will act like kiln dried wood.... sometimes difficult to rebend/resh=
ape, with either wet or steam bending. In these difficult cases, you hear=
d those small cracking sounds, as it's being bent/shaped.
>=20
> Sonny

Thanks for the advice. I'll rig up something that I can extend downward in
small increments to apply pressure as I listen to the drawer bottom.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:29:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
> bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging left=
=20
> to right as well as front to back.

I suppose your last option may be to remove the panel, moisten the raw (bot=
tom) side for a day or so, then allow to dry in a "clamped" reverse curved =
position (over correct the curve, a bit), to correct the bowing... and hope=
that does the trick. I would suspect the wood is air dried, but sometimes=
old "cured" air dried wood acts as if it's kiln dried and is not always as=
bendable/reshapeable as new/newer air dried wood. I don't think you would=
damage the panel if you gave this a try.

Sonny

On Saturday, April 9, 2016 at 8:09:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
>
> In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
> to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
> be most welcome.

Can you easily remove the drawer bottoms and flip them over? If so, then all you'll need to do is (sand smooth? and) apply a finish to the "new" surface.

Sonny

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
> On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are=20
> > considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
> > technique, correct?
> >=20
>=20
> No, not at all. That degree of bow is a nominal curve, in both drawers, =
and should be easy to reverse, to some extent, using the wetted technique. =
If it bent one way, it should be able to be bent the other way. If still =
in doubt, bend it slowly, over time, then allow to dry. =20

Yeah, it took ~100 years to bend one way, and my daughter doesn't graduate=
=20
for another month, so I have lot's of time to reverse the bend. ;-)

So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw bott=
om
and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down dea=
d=20
man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting the=
=20
curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spread t=
he
pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.

Thoughts?

> At least see what effect that has.
>=20
> Sonny

On 4/11/2016 9:22 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>>
>> So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag?
>
> No, I'm saying there is 3/8" sag on one drawer and 1/2" sag on the other.
>
>> Based on a prior post
>> where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.
>>
>> I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.
>>
>
> I wouldn't either, but that's not what I have.
>
That is a lot of sag, but I don't see any mention that it interferes
with the operation of the drawers.

If it's not hurting anything, I'd leave it alone. It took many years to
develop, it will take many years to flatten without using lots of force
and risking cracking and placing other components under stress. If
anybody else even notices it, call it "character" and explain to them
how it proves originality and enhances value. It's OLD, it's supposed to
be wrinkled.

Plywood is simply veneer over another surface. The technique is old.
The wood core is likely thick, e.g. 1/8" and veneers half that or less.
It was a matter of putting 'exotic' wood display with a stable core.

Martin

On 4/10/2016 9:28 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>> I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
>>> Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?
>
>> Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?
>
> This picture: http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU appears to show the
> bottom nailed in 3 places at the back.
>
> Plywood was invented before 1900, but I don't think it came
> into common use until after WW1.
>
> You may be able to take care of the sag by screwing (rather
> than nailing) the bottom to the back in several places.
>
> John
>

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
> > Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
> > least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
> > through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.
>
> The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length of
> 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom is only
> about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can prevent that
> kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the side (besides
> the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

Is the drawer 36 inches deep or just 36 inches wide? If it's not 36
inches deep then the chord you have to work with is the front to back,
not the side to side.
>
> > The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
> > reasons...
> ...
>
> The most probable reason it bowed was that it had too much weight stored
> in the drawer for 100+/- year and it's simple relaxation over the
> unsupported span. No different than setting the set of encyclopedias or
> a 100-lb bust of Beethoven on a long, unsupported bookshelf and leaving
> them there--over time the shelf _will_ sag unless it's far more than
> just a 3/4" ordinary shelf. In this case, we don't know what was in the
> dresser, but whatever it was was too much for a minimal initial design.
> 1/4" is not enough material for a 36" drawer for anything but the
> lightest of loads.

Have you ever worked on a Desk top ? You have several layers of
Veneers. The whole thickness might be 1/16".

Martin

On 4/13/2016 9:16 AM, krw wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>>
>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>>
>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>>
>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>
> I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#History
>
>
> "In 1797 Samuel Bentham applied for patents covering several
> machines to produce veneers. In his patent applications, he
> described the concept of laminating several layers of veneer with
> glue to form a thicker piece – the first description of what we now
> call plywood.[1] Samuel Bentham was a British naval engineer with
> many shipbuilding inventions to his credit. Veneers at the time of
> Bentham were flat sawn, rift sawn or quarter sawn; i.e. cut along
> or across the log manually in different angles to the grain and
> thus limited in width and length."
>>
>> You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
>> ply.
>>
>> I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
>> hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
>> their waterproof glue for all uses.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>>
>>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>>
>>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>>
>>> John
>>>

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
>> Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

> Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

This picture: http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU appears to show the
bottom nailed in 3 places at the back.

Plywood was invented before 1900, but I don't think it came
into common use until after WW1.

You may be able to take care of the sag by screwing (rather
than nailing) the bottom to the back in several places.

John

Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
[email protected]:

> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.

Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.

Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
first manufacturers started making plywood.

John

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.

I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.

John

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in news:1df6083d-1b73-47c2-993a-
[email protected]:

> On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>>
>> So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag?
>
> No, I'm saying there is 3/8" sag on one drawer and 1/2" sag on the other.

OK, think I mis-read your prior post to say you were measuring
up from the underside of the drawer.

I am surprised, with 1/2" of sag, that the bottom hasn't pulled
out of the grooves in the sides. If that bottom is solid wood,
which way does the grain run? Is it possible the wood has
expanded due to humidity, and can't fit without bowing?

John

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>>>
>>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>>>
>>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>>>
>>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>
>>On 4/13/2016 10:16 AM, krw wrote:
>> I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".
>
> You'd be wrong, veneer is not plywood. Veneer becomes plywood when two
> or more sheets of it are glued together,

No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
beleive that, go ask the APA.

John

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:47:58 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:

> The hardwood brace/support also serves to strengthen
> the drawer structure somewhat - joining the drawer-front
> to the drawer back at the center.
> All the other discussion about just reversing the drawer-bottom
> curve, without adding bracing - seems like it might be temporary ?
> John T.

Reshaping, only, is not always temporary, if the over correction is sufficient to maintain a flattened result.

I'd agree that extra support would assure further stability. A narrow metal angle iron type bracing, under neath, would help.

I think someone mentioned placing a cross piece/divider inside the drawers, to function similarly. A divider is a good idea, also, and probably wouldn't look unsightly, either.

Sonny

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are=20
> considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
> technique, correct?
>=20

No, not at all. That degree of bow is a nominal curve, in both drawers, an=
d should be easy to reverse, to some extent, using the wetted technique. I=
f it bent one way, it should be able to be bent the other way. If still in=
doubt, bend it slowly, over time, then allow to dry. At least see what e=
ffect that has.

Sonny

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 7:53 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> > DerbyDad03<[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
> >
> > So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
> > where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.
> >
> > I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.
>
> "...the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
> at the center of the bottom."
>
> That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
> 36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.
>
> --

I haven't mic'ed the bottom, but it's probably 1/4". I'm not home right now,
so that's just a guess.

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:51:10 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 6:13 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
> > glue a 1/4 x 36 x 18 piece of ply across a couple of 2x4s then clamp down
> > the 2x4s and stand on the ply, do you think the ply will bend? I don't.
>
> Of _course_ it will; it doesn't have an infinite modulus of elasticity;
> if it were 1/4" steel plate it would still bend; just not quite so much...
>
> Let's see...from FPL Wood Handbook, for plywood
>
> E --> 1.10-1.24x10E5 lb/sq-in
>
> and for a rectangular solid beam the moment of inertia is bh^3/12 where
> b=width, h=height so for the drawer that's
>
> I=18*(1/4)^3/12 --> 18/(12*4*4*4) --> 3/(2*4*4*4) = 3/128 =0.02344 in^4
>
> For a constrained beam at both ends, max deflection at midpoint is
>
> ymax=Wl^3/192EI
>
> For a 200 lb load that's
>
> ymax=200*36^3/(192*1.1E6*0.023) = 1.88"
>
> For comparison, E for steel ~27E6 so the deflection would be about 0.07"
> instead.
>
> ...
>
> > Note that the panels would not have warped if the edges had been
> > constrained...
>
> If you build a panel door that is fully and tightly constrained on all
> sides with no expansion room, it'll fail sooner rather than later. Door
> panels in exterior doors are _not_ fixed; they float.
>
> --

I wasn't going to mention the fact that dadiOH wants me to secure the bottom
on 3 sides. Aside from all the other reasons that fix won't work, securing the panel
on 3 sides is probably a bad idea too.

I know Leon. Baltic Burch is from the Soviet Union / aka Russia.
It is a high quality board.

Martin

On 4/13/2016 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/12/2016 10:46 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>
> That is very often lumber core, not plywood.
>
>
>>
>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>
> Actually I think it does.
>
>>
>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>
> Apple ply is an American version of Baltic birch plywood. Hard wood
> veneers through out and each is running 90 degrees to the next.
>
>
>>
>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>>
>> You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
>> ply.
>>
>> I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
>> hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
>> their waterproof glue for all uses.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:IiEOy.11705$__
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>>
>>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>>
>>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> >> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
> >> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
> >
> > Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
> > bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging
> > left
> > to right as well as front to back.
>
> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one in the
> center first, then one more on each side halfway between center and side.
> That should fix the sag in both directions; if not, slack off the last two,
> add another one (two more total) between them and center, then tighten the
> loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in response
to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >
> >The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> >drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> >to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
> >
> >In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
> >to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
> >be most welcome.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
> from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large < 1 1/2 inch >
> hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
> stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
> ; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
> and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
> looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
> The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
> - - you might have better options with a solid antique.
> John T.
>

That's a consideration. Thanks

On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 22:52:47 -0500, Martin Eastburn
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Have you ever worked on a Desk top ? You have several layers of
>Veneers. The whole thickness might be 1/16".

OK, and your point is?

>
>Martin
>
>On 4/13/2016 9:16 AM, krw wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>>>
>>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>>>
>>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>>>
>>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.
>>
>> I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#History
>>
>>
>> "In 1797 Samuel Bentham applied for patents covering several
>> machines to produce veneers. In his patent applications, he
>> described the concept of laminating several layers of veneer with
>> glue to form a thicker piece – the first description of what we now
>> call plywood.[1] Samuel Bentham was a British naval engineer with
>> many shipbuilding inventions to his credit. Veneers at the time of
>> Bentham were flat sawn, rift sawn or quarter sawn; i.e. cut along
>> or across the log manually in different angles to the grain and
>> thus limited in width and length."
>>>
>>> You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
>>> ply.
>>>
>>> I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
>>> hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
>>> their waterproof glue for all uses.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>>>
>>>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>>>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>>>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>>>
>>>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>>>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>>>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 2:06:32 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 04/10/2016 12:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> ...
>
> >> As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
> >> so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
> >> captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
> >> drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
> >> structural modifications; two suggestions.
> >>
> >> 1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
> >> small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
> >> re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
> >> drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
> >> not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
> >> bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...
> >>
> >> 2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
> >> unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
> >> were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
> >> obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
> >> fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
> >> then insert new between present locations.
> >
> > Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
> > of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
> > kind of bowl shape.
> >
> > Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
> > center sag.
> ...
>
> Well, you didn't provide sufficient info to know about it, either... :)
>
> The question becomes one of how much you're willing to sacrifice from
> original; another mentioned one option similar to that which I outlined
> above which isn't _too_ obtrusive.
>
> No dimensions given; depending on just how wide they are, I've had some
> success in the past if they are solid material in dampening and
> weighting as dry to reform them but that's a hit 'n miss proposition.
> The one thing of it is that it basically is a no-cost/no-foul thing to
> try as long as there's not veneer to lift.

You are right, I didn't post any dimensions, so here they are:

The interior of the drawers are 36" wide, 16 1/4" deep at the outer
edges, 18 1/4" deep at the center.

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are
considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
technique, correct?


>
> Other than that, you can try simply the "invert and weight" (and wait)
> technique.
>

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:21:25 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> On 4/9/2016 9:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > The drawer knobs were a little loose, so I removed the "screws"
> > (nope!)
> > planning to add some glue and toothpicks to tighten them back up. It
> > turns out that the "screws" are actually bolts that thread into metal
> > inserts in the knobs. The inserts have a pair of points that dig into
> > the drawer front to prevent them from turning. Well, that's the theory
> > anyway.
> >
> > http://imgur.com/0nhHOKd
>
> > The problem is that once the knobs get loose, they spin and the points
>
> > carve a circular groove in the drawer front leaving nothing for the
>
> > points to hold onto. Some of the inserts are also stripped, so I have > a
> some work to do on the knobs.
>
>
>
> The inserts in the knobs look like standard modern day Tee-nuts. Don't
> know when they were invented, but the two pin ones are older than the 4
> pin nuts.

Having used my share of Tee-nuts, I can say with confidence that these are
similar but a far cry from "standard modern day Tee-nuts". The pins on a
Tee-nut point in the same direction as the threaded shaft and are used to
hold the tee-nut in the material that the tee-nut is in.

http://www.theboltbin.com/89-home_default/5-16-x-1-2-tee-nut-4-prong-z.jpg

These inserts have the points pointed in the opposite direction so that they
stick into the material that the object with the insert is attached to.

> At any rate, you shouldn't need the pins at all to stop
> spinning. Current day knobs just tighten down and don't spin. If these
> don't tighten down enough to stop spinning, I'd think the bolt is too
> long,

Maybe the bolt stretched over the past 100+ years? (kidding!)

> or the knob is spinning around the tee-nut. If spinning around the
> tee-nut some epoxy should fix it.

Actually, on the ones that won't tighten down, it appears that the
inserts are stripped. I used the standard glue and toothpick method
and I was able to crank down on the bolts with substantial force.
We'll see how long they hold.

>
> > The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> > drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> > to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
> >
> > http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU
>
> The picture indicates the bottom is either nailed to the bottom, or
> fitted in groves on 3 sides, and open/nailed to the back, so removal
> should be easy. I would remove the bottom, flip it over and screw it
> wherever nails were used previously to attach it.
>

I wish removal was easy. I tried to remove one of the bottoms and it
certainly doesn't slide right out. The other one seems looser but I
haven't removed the nails yet to see if it jammed like the other one.

In any case, the interiors of the bottoms (and of the entire drawer) are
finished as shown here:

http://imgur.com/wOABR4V
http://imgur.com/DlOn3QB

There is also damage (grooves) on the bottoms where they have dragged
on the metal tabs used as stops. The grooves are too deep to be sanded
away and besides, I'm sure I would never be able to match the bottom
finish to the side finish *and* make it look 100+ years old.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
<[email protected]> wrote:

>When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>
>Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>
>Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>
>Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.

I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#History


"In 1797 Samuel Bentham applied for patents covering several
machines to produce veneers. In his patent applications, he
described the concept of laminating several layers of veneer with
glue to form a thicker piece – the first description of what we now
call plywood.[1] Samuel Bentham was a British naval engineer with
many shipbuilding inventions to his credit. Veneers at the time of
Bentham were flat sawn, rift sawn or quarter sawn; i.e. cut along
or across the log manually in different angles to the grain and
thus limited in width and length."
>
>You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
>ply.
>
>I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
>hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
>their waterproof glue for all uses.
>
>Martin
>
>
>On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>
>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>
>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>
>> John
>>

On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>
>The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
>drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
>to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
>
>In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
>to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
>be most welcome.
>
>



I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large < 1 1/2 inch >
hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
- - you might have better options with a solid antique.
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

DerbyDad03 wrote:

> I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
> Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?
>
> http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

> In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
> to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
> be most welcome.

Is this picture of the front of the drawer? If so, it appears to have a
molded edge that extends slightly beyond the front; is that correct? Is the
bottom flush to the bottom of the drawer front; i.e., nor set into a groove?

Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In either
case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

On 04/09/2016 8:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
>
> http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU
>
> I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
> Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?
>
> http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab
>
> In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
> to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
> be most welcome.
...

As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.

1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...

2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
then insert new between present locations.

Btw, the knob kickers can usually be fixed by a strategic insert of a
small patch inserted in the necessary location to provide a new "bite"
surface. I didn't look at all the pictures but have had a number of
these in the past when the SHMBO ran a small antiques booth in TN and
worked over a lot of pieces for her...that was a "trick" taught me by
Lonnie Bird in one of his seminars many, many years ago, now... :)

--

On 04/10/2016 9:57 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> ... I'd recommend to _not_ do major
> structural modifications; two suggestions.
...

_IF_ it were to be considered necessary to add some mechanical fix, one
alternative that is mostly reversible I've used is to add a small
quarter-round on the inside, fastened with brads but no glue. Going at
90-deg angle to bottom and back gives quite a lot of strength with very
small brad/pin and leaves minimal residual damage if removed...and
drawer is still repairable going forward.

Start throwing new glue in places where it isn't precludes any further
repair that can't happen 'cuz can't safely remove the glue plus if one
does want to try to retain what value there is in the piece on any
future antiques market, those kinds of repairs will knock it out of the
collectible class immediately into just old furniture...

--

On 4/9/2016 9:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> The drawer knobs were a little loose, so I removed the "screws"
> (nope!)
> planning to add some glue and toothpicks to tighten them back up. It
> turns out that the "screws" are actually bolts that thread into metal
> inserts in the knobs. The inserts have a pair of points that dig into
> the drawer front to prevent them from turning. Well, that's the theory
> anyway.
>
> http://imgur.com/0nhHOKd

> The problem is that once the knobs get loose, they spin and the points

> carve a circular groove in the drawer front leaving nothing for the

> points to hold onto. Some of the inserts are also stripped, so I have > a
some work to do on the knobs.



The inserts in the knobs look like standard modern day Tee-nuts. Don't
know when they were invented, but the two pin ones are older than the 4
pin nuts. At any rate, you shouldn't need the pins at all to stop
spinning. Current day knobs just tighten down and don't spin. If these
don't tighten down enough to stop spinning, I'd think the bolt is too
long, or the knob is spinning around the tee-nut. If spinning around the
tee-nut some epoxy should fix it.

> The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
> drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
> to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)
>
> http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

The picture indicates the bottom is either nailed to the bottom, or
fitted in groves on 3 sides, and open/nailed to the back, so removal
should be easy. I would remove the bottom, flip it over and screw it
wherever nails were used previously to attach it.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 04/10/2016 12:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

>> As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
>> so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
>> captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
>> drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
>> structural modifications; two suggestions.
>>
>> 1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
>> small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
>> re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
>> drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
>> not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
>> bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...
>>
>> 2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
>> unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
>> were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
>> obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
>> fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
>> then insert new between present locations.
>
> Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
> of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
> kind of bowl shape.
>
> Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
> center sag.
...

Well, you didn't provide sufficient info to know about it, either... :)

The question becomes one of how much you're willing to sacrifice from
original; another mentioned one option similar to that which I outlined
above which isn't _too_ obtrusive.

No dimensions given; depending on just how wide they are, I've had some
success in the past if they are solid material in dampening and
weighting as dry to reform them but that's a hit 'n miss proposition.
The one thing of it is that it basically is a no-cost/no-foul thing to
try as long as there's not veneer to lift.

Other than that, you can try simply the "invert and weight" (and wait)
technique.

--

On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> We snagged a curved front dresser from my Grandmother's house last
> weekend. It was probably my Great-Grandmother's, but there's no way
> to know at this point. My soon-to-graduate daughter wants it for


good to keep nice stuff in the family


was going to put drawer glides on some old drawers that just slide
on bare wood now

but i rubbed wax on the both parts and the drawers move so easy they
almost fly all the way out until you get used them sliding so easy

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
>> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
>
> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
> bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging
> left
> to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one in the
center first, then one more on each side halfway between center and side.
That should fix the sag in both directions; if not, slack off the last two,
add another one (two more total) between them and center, then tighten the
loosened one.

dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
>>> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
>>
>> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
>> the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
>> sagging left
>> to right as well as front to back.
>
> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
> in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
> center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
> slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between them
> and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Addendum: That will remove the belly in both directions as long as you
assure that the bottom is fully inserted into the front groove while you do
the screws.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
>>>> either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
>>>
>>> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
>>> the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
>>> sagging
>>> left
>>> to right as well as front to back.
>>
>> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
>> in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
>> center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
>> slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between
>> them and center, then tighten the loosened one.
>
> Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
> response to dpb's post...
>
> I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
> completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
> bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
> straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
> measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the
> drawer
> at the center of the bottom.
>
> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped? Sag
disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in the grooves
or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the clamps THEN pushing.

On 04/11/2016 7:53 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> DerbyDad03<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>
> So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
> where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.
>
> I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.

"...the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom."

That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.

--

On 04/11/2016 8:15 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
...

>> That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
>> 36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.
...
> I haven't mic'ed the bottom, but it's probably 1/4". I'm not home right now,
> so that's just a guess.

"mic'ing" is a little overboard... :)

That's what I'd judged from the picture. Couldn't tell for certain if
was ply or solid bottom.

I'd still go with the "dampen and weight/wait" ploy first, but was
coming back to add that while I know you'd rather keep it original, with
that large of a drawer if you really want it to be a functional piece
again rather than just collector/display item, it may be that you should
consider building new drawer bottoms. If there's some clearance below,
in the aforementioned TN shop for SHMBO I replaced failed drawer bottoms
with 3/8" solid soft maple stock (rabbeted edge, of course, to fit
existing 1/4" groove). Soft maple because it's strong and neutral
color/grain and not excessively obtrusively "modern" as a piece of
current ply would be.

The alternative is, as also noted elsewhere and by others, use some
external stiffener either on bottom or inside the drawer--another ploy
in that regard that makes some more significant changes to the piece is
to add a middle divider so that you have another support in the middle
like the back. That, of course, changes the piece more but can be done
without terrible damage so can be (mostly) reversed but would leave signs.

Note to the daughter -- if you do get these unbowed, _nothing_ heavier
than the lightest of down pillows can be stored in those wide drawers... :)

--

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides?
>>>>>> In either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?
>>>>>
>>>>> Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
>>>>> the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
>>>>> sagging
>>>>> left
>>>>> to right as well as front to back.
>>>>
>>>> Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
>>>> in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
>>>> center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if
>>>> not, slack off the last two, add another one (two more total)
>>>> between
>>>> them and center, then tighten the loosened one.
>>>
>>> Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
>>> response to dpb's post...
>>>
>>> I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three
>>> spots, completely closing the gap along the back. The front and
>>> sides of the bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I
>>> placed a 36" straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the
>>> drawers and measured the gap between the straight edge and the
>>> bottom of the
>>> drawer
>>> at the center of the bottom.
>>>
>>> 3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.
>>
>> And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped?
>> Sag disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in
>> the grooves or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the
>> clamps THEN pushing.
>
> OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood
> as can be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.
>
> Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the
> grooves and can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.
>
> Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
> simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to
> eliminate the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that
> your "simplest fix" of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is
> going to flatten the 1/2"
> sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of
> the bottom but not the center of the bottom.

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
reasons...

1. The grooves are wider than the bottom is thick. If that is the case,
pushing the bottom flat and gluing in a few small wedges into the too wide
groove should fix it.

2. If the grooves are not wider than the bottom is thick then the drawer
sides have moved out of vertical and possibly parallel. Is the distance
between the sides exactly the same at both top and bottom all along their
length?

On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...

> Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
> least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
> through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length of
36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom is only
about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can prevent that
kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the side (besides
the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

> The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
> reasons...
...

The most probable reason it bowed was that it had too much weight stored
in the drawer for 100+/- year and it's simple relaxation over the
unsupported span. No different than setting the set of encyclopedias or
a 100-lb bust of Beethoven on a long, unsupported bookshelf and leaving
them there--over time the shelf _will_ sag unless it's far more than
just a 3/4" ordinary shelf. In this case, we don't know what was in the
dresser, but whatever it was was too much for a minimal initial design.
1/4" is not enough material for a 36" drawer for anything but the
lightest of loads.

--

On 04/11/2016 8:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
...

> All the other discussion about just reversing the drawer-bottom
> curve, without adding bracing - seems like it might be temporary ?
...

Depends on whether the drawer is subsequently overloaded again or not.

--

dpb wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
>> Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or,
>> at least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a
>> couple of screws through the bottom into the sides should take care
>> of it.
>
> The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length
> of 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom
> is only about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can
> prevent that kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the
> side
> (besides the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

No, not from the side, through the side and bottom from the bottom of the
side; i,e, vertically, not horizontally.

On 04/11/2016 1:34 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or,
>>> at least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a
>>> couple of screws through the bottom into the sides should take care
>>> of it.
>>
>> The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length
>> of 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom
>> is only about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can
>> prevent that kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the
>> side (besides the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).
>
> No, not from the side, through the side and bottom from the bottom of the
> side; i,e, vertically, not horizontally.

Never work, DD's perfectly correct in that; it's the side of the
fastener that you're expecting to constrain less than 10-thou movement
with--ain't a'gonna' happen, wood simply isn't that rigid, plus, as he
says, it'll cobble up the drawer itself somethin' awful in the attempt.

--

On 04/11/2016 8:59 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> The alternative is, as also noted elsewhere and by others, use some
> external stiffener either on bottom or inside the drawer--another ploy
> in that regard that makes some more significant changes to the piece is
> to add a middle divider so that you have another support in the middle
> like the back. That, of course, changes the piece more but can be done
> without terrible damage so can be (mostly) reversed but would leave signs.
...

BTW, presuming the bottom is still solid but just bowed, you can do the
divider trick w/o actually attaching it directly to the front so the
modification evidence is minimal if taken out. The bottom is
constrained by the groove at the edge and held in place by the brads at
the rear plus you can go thru the rear side so when the bottom is
brought up to the bottom of the divider it (the divider) can't go
anywhere; the bottom has to come up to it. That's for front-to-back;
side to side you've got grooves both ends.

For the one I recall specifically did for wife's shop I actually took
the bottom out, used a hand router plane and cut a stopped dado for the
divider in the front inside and pinned it to add some extra rigidity.
It was even wider than yours, though, 42" iirc...was a buffet-like
piece, not a dresser.

--

dpb wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 1:34 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the
>>>> grooves. Or, at least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once
>>>> there, a couple of screws through the bottom into the sides should take
>>>> care
>>>> of it.
>>>
>>> The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord
>>> length of 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the
>>> bottom is only about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can
>>> prevent that kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from
>>> the side (besides the damage done to the piece in trying to do
>>> that).
>>
>> No, not from the side, through the side and bottom from the bottom
>> of the side; i,e, vertically, not horizontally.
>
> Never work, DD's perfectly correct in that; it's the side of the
> fastener that you're expecting to constrain less than 10-thou movement
> with--ain't a'gonna' happen, wood simply isn't that rigid, plus, as he
> says, it'll cobble up the drawer itself somethin' awful in the
> attempt.

Wait! You mean that all those jillions of frame and panel doors are
useless??? :)

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 10:07:29 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:

>> The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think
>> of two reasons...
>>
>> 1. The grooves are wider than the bottom is thick. If that is the
>> case, pushing the bottom flat and gluing in a few small wedges into
>> the too wide groove should fix it.
>
>>
>> 2. If the grooves are not wider than the bottom is thick then the
>> drawer sides have moved out of vertical and possibly parallel. Is
>> the distance between the sides exactly the same at both top and
>> bottom all along their length?
>
> There are at least 2 more possibilities, probably a combination of
> both. I list these in no particular order:
>
> - Obviously, years of weight on a 36" x 18" piece of 1/4" wood (or
> even plywood) could cause considerable warpage. I can't speak to the
> contents
> of the drawers over the years, but anything other more substantial
> than
> linens could certainly have warped the bottoms.

Quite true if the construction was such that bending could occur. If you
glue a 1/4 x 36 x 18 piece of ply across a couple of 2x4s then clamp down
the 2x4s and stand on the ply, do you think the ply will bend? I don't.

> - The bottom side of the drawer bottoms are unfinished, the tops are
> finished with what I assume is varnish. I can only assume (I'm no
> expert by any means) that the raw bottom would have absorbed more
> moisture over the years, resulting in swelling/uneven movement.

Also true but it doesn't take years, just a few days. Maybe even less in
the winter with the heated house resulting in much lower humidity.

I'm in the process of building an entry door. The glued up panels are 7/8"
thick. They were built 3-4 weeks ago during a rather warm, humid spell. It
turned cool again and I noticed a couple of days ago that the 26" wide
panels had bowed, probably 1/4" - 3/8" belly. No big deal, if they haven't
flattened themselves out when I get to assembling stuff I'll just dampen the
concave side.

Note that the panels would not have warped if the edges had been
constrained; split, maybe, but not warped.

> Bottom line, and I know you'd agree if you saw the drawers, the
> bottoms are bowed beyond the point where edge attachments are going
> to flatten them.

Maybe so but whatever you do won't last unless you correct whatever caused
them to warp in the first place. If it were me, I'd just do the best I
could and forget it. A bit of belly in a dresser drawer isn't gong to hurt
anything; maybe even help if one keeps one's marble collection in it :)

On 04/11/2016 6:09 PM, dadiOH wrote:
...


> Wait! You mean that all those jillions of frame and panel doors are
> useless??? :)

Huh?

--

On 04/11/2016 6:13 PM, dadiOH wrote:
...

> glue a 1/4 x 36 x 18 piece of ply across a couple of 2x4s then clamp down
> the 2x4s and stand on the ply, do you think the ply will bend? I don't.

Of _course_ it will; it doesn't have an infinite modulus of elasticity;
if it were 1/4" steel plate it would still bend; just not quite so much...

Let's see...from FPL Wood Handbook, for plywood

E --> 1.10-1.24x10E5 lb/sq-in

and for a rectangular solid beam the moment of inertia is bh^3/12 where
b=width, h=height so for the drawer that's

I=18*(1/4)^3/12 --> 18/(12*4*4*4) --> 3/(2*4*4*4) = 3/128 =0.02344 in^4

For a constrained beam at both ends, max deflection at midpoint is

ymax=Wl^3/192EI

For a 200 lb load that's

ymax=200*36^3/(192*1.1E6*0.023) = 1.88"

For comparison, E for steel ~27E6 so the deflection would be about 0.07"
instead.

...

> Note that the panels would not have warped if the edges had been
> constrained...

If you build a panel door that is fully and tightly constrained on all
sides with no expansion room, it'll fail sooner rather than later. Door
panels in exterior doors are _not_ fixed; they float.

--

dpb wrote:


> If you build a panel door that is fully and tightly constrained on all
> sides with no expansion room, it'll fail sooner rather than later. Door
> panels in exterior doors are _not_ fixed; they float.

Gee, I learn something new every day.

On 04/12/2016 5:55 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>
>> If you build a panel door that is fully and tightly constrained on all
>> sides with no expansion room, it'll fail sooner rather than later. Door
>> panels in exterior doors are _not_ fixed; they float.
>
> Gee, I learn something new every day.

You're welcome... :)

OTOH, I don't know why you're now getting snippy; just responded to your
comments implying trying to keep a panel flat by constricting the edges...

But, suit yourself.

--

dpb wrote:
> On 04/12/2016 5:55 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If you build a panel door that is fully and tightly constrained on
>>> all sides with no expansion room, it'll fail sooner rather than
>>> later. Door panels in exterior doors are _not_ fixed; they float.
>>
>> Gee, I learn something new every day.
>
> You're welcome... :)
>
> OTOH, I don't know why you're now getting snippy; just responded to
> your comments implying trying to keep a panel flat by constricting
> the edges...
> But, suit yourself.

I wasn't trying to be snippy. If I was trying to be snippy, I would have
asked, "Float in what?" or "So I can't glue in a plywood bottom?". :)

And I don't think restraining the edges keeps a panel flat. Restraining the
top and bottom of the FACES at the edges, yes; edges themselves, no.

On 04/11/2016 6:50 PM, dpb wrote:
...

> For a constrained beam at both ends, max deflection at midpoint is
>
> ymax=Wl^3/192EI
...

BTW, just for comparison, if the ends were free instead of constrained
from rotation as was postulated, the maximum deflection is

ymax=Wl^3/48EI

Same form, just the constant turns out different. The deflection would
be 4X that of the constrained case (192/48-->4).

--

> On 4/12/2016 10:46 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.

> On 4/13/2016 10:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> That is very often lumber core, not plywood.

Yes, lumber core plywood. All sorts of plywood, lumber core, MDF core,
Particle board core, veneer core, combination core etc. etc.

>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>
> Actually I think it does.

It might based on some old patents for making plywood, but the term
plywood today seems just a generic term for laminated wood, which has
been around forever, (3000 BC?)and the requirements pretty much seems to
be 2 or more pieces of wood glued together. You can fight all day over
definitions, but ply and wood used together indicates laminated wood,
thus Martin got it right, "takes two to ply"... I'm thinking like tissue
paper vs kleenx

I bought some oak veneer "plywood" once at Allegheny Plywood that had a
core of some unrecognizable stuff that looked like plaster. Still, it
was 2 sheets of wood glued to some non-wood product, and they called it,
and sold it, as "plywood".

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:46:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When you have solid board core and a layer on both side that is pretty
>> it is PLY. Takes 2 to Ply.
>>
>> Your requirements of this or that or orientation doesn't hold water.
>>
>> Apple ply is not the same as a fur or pine ply.
>>
>> Having a solid core is strong. The ply's on the outside is dressing.

>On 4/13/2016 10:16 AM, krw wrote:
> I'd call that "veneer", not "plywood".

You'd be wrong, veneer is not plywood. Veneer becomes plywood when two
or more sheets of it are glued together, then it is called plywood, and
if 3 or more sheets of veneer are glued together, it is called veneer
core plywood, as opposed to lumber core plywood, for example.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#History
>
>
> "In 1797 Samuel Bentham applied for patents covering several
> machines to produce veneers. In his patent applications, he
> described the concept of laminating several layers of veneer with
> glue to form a thicker piece – the first description of what we now
> call plywood.[1] Samuel Bentham was a British naval engineer with
> many shipbuilding inventions to his credit. Veneers at the time of
> Bentham were flat sawn, rift sawn or quarter sawn; i.e. cut along
> or across the log manually in different angles to the grain and
> thus limited in width and length."
>>
>> You are making commercial product and saying PLY has requirements to be
>> ply.
>>
>> I've used Plywood since 51 or 52. They made it in the back shop of the
>> hardware store. They bought vernier sheets and made their own using
>> their waterproof glue for all uses.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On 4/11/2016 7:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.
>>>
>>> Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
>>> the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
>>> That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.
>>>
>>> Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
>>> cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
>>> first manufacturers started making plywood.
>>>
>>> John
>>>

On 04/14/2016 7:20 AM, Leon wrote:
> John McCoy<[email protected]> wrote:
...

>> No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
>> That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
>> beleive that, go ask the APA.
>>
...

> Agreed and IIRC. Plywood always has an odd number of ply's.

So what is lumber-core, then? :)

--

On 04/14/2016 10:33 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/14/2016 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 04/14/2016 7:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> John McCoy<[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
>>>> That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
>>>> beleive that, go ask the APA.
>>>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Agreed and IIRC. Plywood always has an odd number of ply's.
>>
>> So what is lumber-core, then? :)
...

Snipped for brevity...Gee, no way one can put in _any_ levity, can ya'...

--

On 04/14/2016 10:34 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> BTY stay safe in the next few days! Looks like rain and wind is in your
> forecast.

We're hopin'...wind is always with us; rain, "not so much".

Just heard on the AgrTalk weather segment this morning they've
officially announced a La Nina watch which means likely end of the El
Nino cycle and typically puts us back into the dry slot again...we just
emerged this last year from five years of extreme drought so if that
comes come to pass it ain't lookin' good again for a while...so a real
soaking wet event would be a godsend first...

--

On 04/14/2016 9:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

>
> Is the drawer 36 inches deep or just 36 inches wide? If it's not 36
> inches deep then the chord you have to work with is the front to back,
> not the side to side.
...

It's bowed _both_ directions, the long-ways is the longest unsupported
length which is the 36" dimension. The one edge (front) is supported,
yes, but the remainder is poorly supported by the failed nails along the
rear. Look at the pictures to see the geometry.

--

On 04/14/2016 11:33 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 04/14/2016 9:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>
>>
>> Is the drawer 36 inches deep or just 36 inches wide? If it's not 36
>> inches deep then the chord you have to work with is the front to back,
>> not the side to side.
> ...
>
> It's bowed _both_ directions, the long-ways is the longest unsupported
> length which is the 36" dimension. The one edge (front) is supported,
> yes, but the remainder is poorly supported by the failed nails along the
> rear. Look at the pictures to see the geometry.

Oh, if you're bothered treated it as a beam instead of plate, the point
is how little it takes to get what seems a big bow in the center in
relative movement of the ends. The plate solution is significantly more
complicated to show the same thing; not worth the bother for the purpose
here...

--

On 04/14/2016 11:33 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 04/14/2016 10:34 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> BTY stay safe in the next few days! Looks like rain and wind is in your
>> forecast.
>
> We're hopin'...wind is always with us; rain, "not so much".
>
> Just heard on the AgrTalk weather segment this morning they've
> officially announced a La Nina watch which means likely end of the El
> Nino cycle and typically puts us back into the dry slot again...we just
> emerged this last year from five years of extreme drought so if that
> comes come to pass it ain't lookin' good again for a while...so a real
> soaking wet event would be a godsend first...

Well, we got home yesterday evening after being in SE KS for a family
funeral...rained on us in varying intensity from not far west of Iola
until nearly home where a shower had just passed. Many areas had from
4" to nearly 7"; there was a total of only 0.45" in the gauge at the
house only. But, guess we have to be thankful for that, 20 miles on S
was even less. The heavy rains "trained" over the same narrow bands for
two days and we were, as seems so often the case, in the are the inflow
setup and were thus "dryslotted" with heavier rains on both sides of us
as near as ten miles or perhaps less...radio in town said they had
around an inch which isn't 10 mi away to airport which is the
measurement location I presume they were using...

But, it is at least something altho won't last long....was a little
severe weather around, but not much other than some localized flooding
in the really local areas that got it. I'd not mind takin' my chances,
frankly given as dry as we've been for the previous five...a few
waterholes in low spots would be a novel occurrence.

--

On 4/14/2016 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 04/14/2016 7:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>> John McCoy<[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
>
>>> No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
>>> That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
>>> beleive that, go ask the APA.
>>>
> ...
>
>> Agreed and IIRC. Plywood always has an odd number of ply's.
>
> So what is lumber-core, then? :)
>
> --
>
>
>

It is a solid plank, made up of many edge glued pieces of solid wood
with typically a cross grained outer layer on both sides and then an
exterior veneer on both sides with grains running parallel to the inner
core.

Typically common plywood is made up of thin alternating grain direction
ply's/veneer sheets.

A common plywood trait is alternating plies which adds strength and
stability and why plywood is often a better material for large areas
where dimension stability is important. You do not see plywood with
grain running in different directions on opposite sides therefore it
always has an odd number of ply's.

On 4/14/2016 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 04/14/2016 7:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>> John McCoy<[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
>
>>> No. It becomes plywood if the veneers are glued cross-grain.
>>> That's fundamental to the definition of plywood. If you don't
>>> beleive that, go ask the APA.
>>>
> ...
>
>> Agreed and IIRC. Plywood always has an odd number of ply's.
>
> So what is lumber-core, then? :)
>
> --
>
>
>


BTY stay safe in the next few days! Looks like rain and wind is in your
forecast.