I'm looking for some help with a problem I've been having. Through the
years I've managed to acquire a planer (ridid 13") and jointer (Delta
DJ-20). I've been working with oak lately which I've been buying rough
from a good hardwood supplier. To surface the stock I've been cutting it
to rough width and legnth. Then I fact joint one surface until it's flat
against the jointer bed. The next step, from what I understand is to run
the board through the planer, flat side against the bed (down) and plane the
board to desired thickness, in this case 3/4". For some reason after I
plane it, i put the board down on the jointer bed again and I find that
neither surface is flat. For the life of me I can't figure out how this
can happen. From what I've read the jointer, and your form, is the biggest
source of problems, but once i've found the face to be flat, it should be
fine. It doesn't make sense to me how the planer could bow the stock.
I've checked the planer and found it to be set up properly (so I think), but
even if not, it should only affect the surface being planed, not the other
side.
Now, the bow is minor, and with a little pressure i can easily hold the
board flat, but I am thinking that it still shouldn't be this way. The
only thing I can think of is the board reacting to internal stresses as the
supporting wood is planed off, but it keeps on happening across several
boards.
I've taken up this hobby to relax me, but at times like this is is anything
but. Can anyone shed any light?
Rob
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:47:54 GMT, Mike Hide <[email protected]> wrote:
> How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run it
> through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
Nothing would make the second joiner cut line up with the first.
> Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times you run
> into some reaction wood ,
Yup, I think he's got some reaction wood as well. Either stored wrong,
or limb wood, or from a leaning tree, or ???????
I'll offer some armchair speculation, and it has _nothing_ to do with
reaction wood, which would be obvious by the convolutions in the grain
(curly), and say that _no_ commercial mill will take branch wood, nor even
wood with a pronounced sweep, because it might bind and damage their
equipment. I've helped wedge the kerf and reverse the carriage on more than
one piece of green poplar (Populus sp.) which has seized and held a circular
blade.
Wood curves toward the sapwood - always. This means a crown at the heart or
a bow along the length of even a quartersawn board. Could be this is
what's happening, though I doubt it. My guess would be the natural tendency
of the operator to avoid putting his hands close to the leading or trailing
edge of a board being joined. You almost have to force yourself, even with
hold-downs, to hold the thing hard to the infeed as it engages, kicks a bit
and maybe makes a popping noise, and we all know what emerges after the
board uncovers them on the trailing edge, so there's normally a letup there
too. This means we'll take a bit more off the middle, on average. I'll
cast my vote here.
If you have one flat face, a proper thickness planer will make the other
flat and parallel to it - period. No need to surface two sides with the
jointer.
"GerryG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well, one problem is time. Consider that all grained wood has some
internal
> stress. Consider that a common fir 2x4 was originally milled straight but
is
> no longer so, and that it may get worse after sitting for another month.
Wood
> that's stable has a balance of internal stresses. When you change the
> thickness of that wood, the balance changes but it may take from hours to
> weeks to restore that balance. Reaction wood is just an extreme case of
this.
> GerryG
>
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:18:40 GMT, "Mike Hide" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >> >On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:47:54 GMT, Mike Hide <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >> >> How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run
it
> >> >> through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
> >> >
> >> >Nothing would make the second joiner cut line up with the first.
> >
> >Well I agree, I was not intending it to be .All I was trying to do
initially
> >was to get flat surfaces on both sides to run it through the planer.
> >
> >If the wood moves appreciably then in my mind the cut is relieving
internal
> >stress . after the cut the surface stress should be zero ,thats unless
the
> >piece is constrained in some way...mjh
> >
> >
> >> >> Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times
you
> >run
> >> >> into some reaction wood ,
> >> >
> >> >Yup, I think he's got some reaction wood as well. Either stored
wrong,
> >> >or limb wood, or from a leaning tree, or ???????
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:10:22 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>I'll offer some armchair speculation, and it has _nothing_ to do with
>reaction wood, which would be obvious by the convolutions in the grain
>(curly),
reaction wood is not always figured, and curly wood is not always
reaction wood.
>If you have one flat face, a proper thickness planer will make the other
>flat and parallel to it - period. No need to surface two sides with the
>jointer.
agreed.
"Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:AusXc.13738
> I have found flatsawn wood which is more from the center of the tree
When I reread this I realized that I had misworded this. I meant that
flatsawn wood is more prone to wander and the closer it was taken from the
center of the tree the worse.
Frank
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QhsXc.56327$X12.17292@edtnps84...
Sounds like the wood is reacting to internal stresses. If it is bowing
immediatley, then it has to be stresses in the wood. Is it flatsawn stock?
I have found flatsawn wood which is more from the center of the tree to be
highly prone to wander around like this. Why don't you try some quartersawn
and see what happens. Some folks recommend taking equal amounts of stock
off of each face to balance out any moisture in the wood. I usually don't
do this. What is the moisture content of the wood? Is it kiln dried or air
dried?
Frank
--
> >On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:47:54 GMT, Mike Hide <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run it
> >> through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
> >
> >Nothing would make the second joiner cut line up with the first.
Well I agree, I was not intending it to be .All I was trying to do initially
was to get flat surfaces on both sides to run it through the planer.
If the wood moves appreciably then in my mind the cut is relieving internal
stress . after the cut the surface stress should be zero ,thats unless the
piece is constrained in some way...mjh
> >> Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times you
run
> >> into some reaction wood ,
> >
> >Yup, I think he's got some reaction wood as well. Either stored wrong,
> >or limb wood, or from a leaning tree, or ???????
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:QhsXc.56327$X12.17292@edtnps84:
> I'm looking for some help with a problem I've been having.
<snip>
So, maybe it's technique.
Once you get side one face jointed, it becomes the reference face for the
planer operation. Run the board through the planer until the side opposite
the reference face is smooth. It may not yet be to thickness, but the two
faces are parallel.
This is a good place to let the board take a rest. Maybe for a couple of
hours, or maybe a couple of days. Stickered, with air flow, in the shop
environment. Let it adjust to being something less than it was before the
machining. (Sit down, and watch those TiVo recordings of Olympic Synchro
Diving, if you must...;-)
When the wood has adjusted, and all of you stock is milled to rough size,
then complete the process. This time, turn the boards as they go through
the planer, taking approximately equal amounts from each face, taking into
account cleaning up tear out, or color, or whatever. With oak, it's also a
good thing to maybe turn those TP1300 blades over first, and get a nice
sharp edge.
You CAN beat the wood into submission. It just won't be happy about it,
and will subtly try to ruin your enjoyment of your time in the shop. Those
nice tenons won't fit like Norm's do, on TV, and the mortises will be ever
so slightly in the wrong place. But then, you don't likely have a team of
production assistants making sure everything is just so, either.
The good news is that woodworking is so much less stressful without a
producer and camera crew watching everything you do. And nobody is
recording the 'magic words' invoked to get things to fit, either.
Enjoy your shop. The time there is precious.
Patriarch
How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run it
through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times you run
into some reaction wood ,for instance boards cut from a large bough which
has spent its life trying not to sag to the ground or even a tree trunk that
grew leaning to one side or the other.......mjh
--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QhsXc.56327$X12.17292@edtnps84...
> I'm looking for some help with a problem I've been having. Through the
> years I've managed to acquire a planer (ridid 13") and jointer (Delta
> DJ-20). I've been working with oak lately which I've been buying rough
> from a good hardwood supplier. To surface the stock I've been cutting it
> to rough width and legnth. Then I fact joint one surface until it's flat
> against the jointer bed. The next step, from what I understand is to run
> the board through the planer, flat side against the bed (down) and plane
the
> board to desired thickness, in this case 3/4". For some reason after I
> plane it, i put the board down on the jointer bed again and I find that
> neither surface is flat. For the life of me I can't figure out how this
> can happen. From what I've read the jointer, and your form, is the
biggest
> source of problems, but once i've found the face to be flat, it should be
> fine. It doesn't make sense to me how the planer could bow the stock.
> I've checked the planer and found it to be set up properly (so I think),
but
> even if not, it should only affect the surface being planed, not the other
> side.
>
> Now, the bow is minor, and with a little pressure i can easily hold the
> board flat, but I am thinking that it still shouldn't be this way. The
> only thing I can think of is the board reacting to internal stresses as
the
> supporting wood is planed off, but it keeps on happening across several
> boards.
>
> I've taken up this hobby to relax me, but at times like this is is
anything
> but. Can anyone shed any light?
>
> Rob
>
>
>
Rob,
I've just been dealing with jointer/planer adjustment
frustrations. The height of the outfeed table, after a week of cursing
at my jointer, was my biggest challenge regarding flattening the wood.
I'm not sure which way it goes, but a high outfeed table causes a
convex or a concave board. A low outfeed table causes the opposite
either way. If the infeed/outfeed tables have a sag, even if it's very
small, it can be very, very frustrating to get a straight board.
Jointers are tricky to use at first, there is more technique than I
imagined. I have been practicing with cheep 2x4 fir/pine, it's easier
to joint and nicer on the blades, watch for staples, pebbles etc. A
good book by John White is "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." So far,
with a few modifications on his techniques, its been a great book.
Keep us posted, and let us know of your solution.
Don
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<QhsXc.56327$X12.17292@edtnps84>...
> I'm looking for some help with a problem I've been having. Through the
> years I've managed to acquire a planer (ridid 13") and jointer (Delta
> DJ-20). I've been working with oak lately which I've been buying rough
> from a good hardwood supplier. To surface the stock I've been cutting it
> to rough width and legnth. Then I fact joint one surface until it's flat
> against the jointer bed. The next step, from what I understand is to run
> the board through the planer, flat side against the bed (down) and plane the
> board to desired thickness, in this case 3/4". For some reason after I
> plane it, i put the board down on the jointer bed again and I find that
> neither surface is flat. For the life of me I can't figure out how this
> can happen. From what I've read the jointer, and your form, is the biggest
> source of problems, but once i've found the face to be flat, it should be
> fine. It doesn't make sense to me how the planer could bow the stock.
> I've checked the planer and found it to be set up properly (so I think), but
> even if not, it should only affect the surface being planed, not the other
> side.
>
> Now, the bow is minor, and with a little pressure i can easily hold the
> board flat, but I am thinking that it still shouldn't be this way. The
> only thing I can think of is the board reacting to internal stresses as the
> supporting wood is planed off, but it keeps on happening across several
> boards.
>
> I've taken up this hobby to relax me, but at times like this is is anything
> but. Can anyone shed any light?
>
> Rob
I'll agree with Patriarch below, and add just a bit.
You didn't mention if the problem was across the width or only on the length,
but I'll assume the latter. But here we still don't have the length. Which
reminds me of years ago, when I took a 7' length of rough ash 4/4, and did
what you did. I did end up with a (momentarily) flat and square piece, but
that was because I shot past 3/4" and was down to just over 1/4", and the
weight of the board itself made it lay flat.
Maybe you're only talking about 3' lengths, but we can't be sure of that.
How long you need to wait for the wood to stabilize, depends entirely on how
long it takes the wood to stabilize...Yes, that's double talk, but the wait
time, for boards otherwise adjusted to your shop environment, is dependent on
the wood species, the resulting size, and the grain on that piece. Regarding
the size, I can mill very straight and flat 1/2x1x3' strips, but they probably
won't be that way tomorrow. Regarding the species. I milled some zebrawood,
then used it a week later. Six months later, it was still moving...
As for flipping faces back-and-forth in the planer, I wouldn't do it all the
time. For precise pieces I'll mill only one side in the planer, then return
that one side to the jointer, to both take out any snipe and to make sure it's
flat. The planer's reference area being much smaller than the jointers.
On the other hand, from rough wood, I'll often start with passes through the
planer, flipping sides. That cleans it up enough to get a good look at the
grain. I may even take that down to just oversize, and let it sit. This is
generally a much faster process than going from the jointer to the planer.
Then, after the wood has rested awhile, and now that I can easily see the
grain, I'll cut to rough length and do my final sizing on the jointer-planer
as you did.
And if you find success here, try resawing heavily figured wood and watch
where it goes afterwards.
GerryG
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:09:02 GMT, patriarch
<<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:QhsXc.56327$X12.17292@edtnps84:
>
>> I'm looking for some help with a problem I've been having.
>
><snip>
>
>So, maybe it's technique.
>
>Once you get side one face jointed, it becomes the reference face for the
>planer operation. Run the board through the planer until the side opposite
>the reference face is smooth. It may not yet be to thickness, but the two
>faces are parallel.
>
>This is a good place to let the board take a rest. Maybe for a couple of
>hours, or maybe a couple of days. Stickered, with air flow, in the shop
>environment. Let it adjust to being something less than it was before the
>machining. (Sit down, and watch those TiVo recordings of Olympic Synchro
>Diving, if you must...;-)
>
>When the wood has adjusted, and all of you stock is milled to rough size,
>then complete the process. This time, turn the boards as they go through
>the planer, taking approximately equal amounts from each face, taking into
>account cleaning up tear out, or color, or whatever. With oak, it's also a
>good thing to maybe turn those TP1300 blades over first, and get a nice
>sharp edge.
>
>You CAN beat the wood into submission. It just won't be happy about it,
>and will subtly try to ruin your enjoyment of your time in the shop. Those
>nice tenons won't fit like Norm's do, on TV, and the mortises will be ever
>so slightly in the wrong place. But then, you don't likely have a team of
>production assistants making sure everything is just so, either.
>
>The good news is that woodworking is so much less stressful without a
>producer and camera crew watching everything you do. And nobody is
>recording the 'magic words' invoked to get things to fit, either.
>
>Enjoy your shop. The time there is precious.
>
>Patriarch
Well, one problem is time. Consider that all grained wood has some internal
stress. Consider that a common fir 2x4 was originally milled straight but is
no longer so, and that it may get worse after sitting for another month. Wood
that's stable has a balance of internal stresses. When you change the
thickness of that wood, the balance changes but it may take from hours to
weeks to restore that balance. Reaction wood is just an extreme case of this.
GerryG
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:18:40 GMT, "Mike Hide" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:47:54 GMT, Mike Hide <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run it
>> >> through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
>> >
>> >Nothing would make the second joiner cut line up with the first.
>
>Well I agree, I was not intending it to be .All I was trying to do initially
>was to get flat surfaces on both sides to run it through the planer.
>
>If the wood moves appreciably then in my mind the cut is relieving internal
>stress . after the cut the surface stress should be zero ,thats unless the
>piece is constrained in some way...mjh
>
>
>> >> Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times you
>run
>> >> into some reaction wood ,
>> >
>> >Yup, I think he's got some reaction wood as well. Either stored wrong,
>> >or limb wood, or from a leaning tree, or ???????
On the reaction wood comment: Well, maybe so. But as we don't know the
species, width, length, or even how far off it was, I'd tend to agree with
Patriarch's opinion here.
GerryG
On 27 Aug 2004 20:57:32 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:47:54 GMT, Mike Hide <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How about running both rough sides through the joiner first then run it
>> through the planer alternating each side with small cuts .
>
>Nothing would make the second joiner cut line up with the first.
>
>> Basically your existing procedure should work , however some times you run
>> into some reaction wood ,
>
>Yup, I think he's got some reaction wood as well. Either stored wrong,
>or limb wood, or from a leaning tree, or ???????