OT: Advertising

On 10/17/2013 12:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Basically, Simpson Strong-Tie, the lead dog manufacturer of hangers
>>> and connectors specified by most Engineers, agrees with you that you
>>> should be very careful which type fasteners are used in order to both
>>> maintain code compliance, and Engineer specifications for the
>>> project: http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html
>>>
>>
>> Well - ya learn something new every day. I looked at a few web sites
>> that deal with galvanic action and the likes and for in-air use they
>> rate SS as little to no action with galvanized. For fresh water
>> submerged use it was little to a little more. I didn't spend a lot
>> of time looking but I didn't see anything that cautioned against SS
>> and galvanized. Shows to go ya...
>
> I didn't see anything that cautioned against the use of SS on their web
> site. A ton of information though! They do caution against SS smooth shank
> nails due to the reduced holding strength compared to a ring shanked nail,
> but that's all I saw.

In the link above, Section a, bullet 3:

"When using stainless-steel connectors, use stainless-steel fasteners.
When using ZMAX®/HDG galvanized connectors, use fasteners that meet the
zinc coating specifications of ASTM A153 or other fasteners allowed in
this catalog."

That's not to say that there may be some of their products where it
would not make a difference, but as a general rule the above applies, IME.


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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> By the way, it's a nice day for deck repair work. I'm just in for lunch
> break. I have to "break-in"(set-up) my miter saw for the next step...
>
> Cheers,
> Bill

It is... except for that 10 minute downpour. Tools and guys headed for
cover, and basically had to set up all over again.

We got it done. I even spray painted a screw gold and drove it in last.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill wrote:

> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
> throat! There are others, but that's one.
---------------------------------------
So clear out your cookies everyday and your problem will go away.

Lew

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Just before assembling the stand, I installed the DeWalt LED
> "worklight system" for the miter saw. I am glad that I bought that
> accessory for the saw. Comparing it with the line you've drawn, it
> provides one more check that the blade is going to cut perpendicular
> to the edge of the board. The fence on the saw is a little short to
> be confident without it. At least in one case today, it saved my cut
> from being off by a few degrees. I think I can cut now to within about
> 1/32"-3/64 (at worst) using the LED and a flashlight. Actually, it's
> pretty tough to see the pencil line with all of the light. Anyone
> marking lines with something besides a pencil (besides a knife)?

I've been known to use a piece of chalk a few times. It makes sense when
you're cutting a workpiece to rough size and it doesn't matter if the
acutal cut line is an inch on either side of the mark. (Admittedly, I
got it from watching Tommy MacDonald.)

Chalk comes off nicely, so it's good for marking other things than lines.
On larger projects, I'll label the pieces as I lay them out.

> I was reminded of Roy Underhill's joke: "He who marks the center of a
> circle more than one time is never quite as sure where the center is
> as the man who marks it once." Thus(ly), I made a point of just
> drawing one marking line, and keeping track of whether I wanted to cut
> to the left or right of it. You sort of got me thinking along those
> lines in one of your recent posts, and that was helpful.

I always mark a little X on the off-cut side of the line. I have enough
things (pencil) to keep track of (tape) without trying to remember
(square) which side of the (pencil's gone again) line to (there it is)
cut on.

> Anyway, much to my relief (!), now I have a neat stack of 4 Trex
> boards meeting my specs, with about 1 1/2" left over (whew!) I still
> need to rip one of them lengthwise with my CS.
>
> By the way, a plastic garbage can with 2 folding chairs and a piece of
> carpet on it will serve as a roller stand too, when one need two
> roller stands! : ) It's a good thing I bought the roller stand
> though as I only have one such garbage can! No seriously now, being
> "continuously adjustable" (between 25" and 42"), the rolling stand is
> a joy! It even looks decent (well-packaged too, except for the
> directions).

Roller stands, saw horses, and clamps are things you almost always need
pairs of. Time to head back to the store and complete the pair... ;-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Roller stands, saw horses, and clamps are things you almost always
>> need pairs of. Time to head back to the store and complete the
>> pair... ;-) Puckdropper
>
> It sort of pains me to spend money, but I think you may be right about
> this. You did me a favor directing me to the Porter Cable Forstner
> bit set at Lowes too.
>
> Speaking of money, have you observed any of the price increases at
> Grizzly?
>
> Bill
>

You're not spending money. You're investing in tools.


Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Mike Marlow wrote:

There is nothing on this earth that
>> is worse than plumbing, and more evil than tile work.
-----------------------------------------------------
You need to spend some time in SoCal and watch our
Mexican friends work with tile.

They are truly artists when working with clay.
----------------------------------------------------
"Bill" wrote:

> Did you spend most of your time trying to cut curves in tile, or
> what is something else? Trying to cut a concave curve in tile
> sounds tough to me--but I'm almost clueless on the subject. I
> learned a little in recent weeks as I have a few cracked kitchen
> tiles to replace--a relative walk in the park compared to your job.
---------------------------------------------------------------
A Fein MultiMaster and the correct blade makes the task
a whole lot easier.


Lew

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> P.S. I broke four PH-1 Impact bits in all. A little user applied
> pressure helps avoid stripping them, but one needs to ease up once the
> screw is set! I found out PH-1's are more fragile than PH-2's, I think.

Why are you using #1 Phillips bits? Every construction screw I've come
across with a Phillips head has used #2 Phillips.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Bill" wrote:

> FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are the joist hangers galvanized?

If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
another.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>
>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>> another.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

> Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just the
> opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals indicates
> galvanized and SS are very compatible.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Connect a sailboat galvanized anchor chain to a galvanized anchor
using a S/S shackle and watch the S/S shackle disappear almost
right before your eyes.

Granted, salt water is involved most of the time but Indianapolis
is still in the "rustbelt".

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>
>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>> another.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote:
>>
>> Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just
>> the
>> opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals
>> indicates
>> galvanized and SS are very compatible.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Connect a sailboat galvanized anchor chain to a galvanized anchor
>> using a S/S shackle and watch the S/S shackle disappear almost
>> right before your eyes.
>>
>> Granted, salt water is involved most of the time but Indianapolis
>> is still in the "rustbelt".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

> Nope - totally different issues. If you really looked at specs on
> materials you would have seen there is a distinct difference between
> in-air and under-water. You are drawing an inappropriate
> conclusion.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What does "in-air" have anything to do with things?

Think salty road slush that gets transferred by automobile or foot
traffic.

Gads, I get nauseous just thinking about that crap.

Lew

Bill wrote:

>> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
>> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S
>> bit fit, I assumed it was appropriate.
>
> It appears R1X is deeper.
>
>>
>> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
>> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow
>> improve it.
>>
> I just saw this video. I'll surely give the screw removal
> technique a try.
>
> http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html

----------------------------------------------------
Don't forget to hold that #2 with a pair of ViceGrips while you whack
it with a hammer.

Your fingers will thank you.

Lew

Mike <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> I just finished driving over 100 square recess head screws (2 1/2 and
> 3 inches long). They are supposed to be cam out resistant, but I'm
> thinking now that that must be akin to water resistant VS water proof.
> Anyway, what I came up with was to get the screw started before
> putting enough pressure on the driver to cause it to start impacting.
> That way I was able to put pressure on without the screw wanting to
> angle out. To stay in the screw, I had to apply a lot more pressure
> than I had anticipated. I don't know that it makes any difference,
> but my driver is a 12V Milwaukee Electric.
>
> HTH,
> Mike

Your impact driver starts impacting before the screw starts? My 18V
Makita drives the screw almost all the way in before impacting. If it
starts impacting before about the 3/4 mark, that's one of the signs the
battery is getting weak.

Does a hammer drill start impacting immediately?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill wrote:


>>> ...I'll surely give the screw removal
>>> technique a try.
>>>
>>> http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html
>> ----------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:


>> Don't forget to hold that #2 with a pair of ViceGrips while you
>> whack
>> it with a hammer.
>>
>> Your fingers will thank you.

---------------------------------------------
Bill wrote:

> I agree with that idea. It's been a while since I hit my finger
> with a hammer--and I'd like to keep it that way!
-----------------------------------------------
Forgot to add that this is a great application for a 24 Oz, drill
hammer (Midgit sledge hammer).

Short stroke, high accuracy, high momentum delivered.

BTDT.

Lew

woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Meaning torx? I have had dpretty ok luck with square. Do you lube your
> screws, or buy lubed screws being you sink so many?
>

I have a box of T20-size "composite" deck screws if anyone wants them.
The heads are horrible. They strip easily and once stripped cannot
easily be removed.

We used T25-size deck screws (bugle head, not the composite style) on our
deck project and didn't strip one. Had a little slippage going on at the
end of the project because of a worn out bit, but that's it.

These look like the horrid screws:
http://www.menards.com/main/deckestimator/deck-board-fastener-type/grip-
fast-10-x-2-3-4-cedar-composite-exterior-deck-screw-1lb-box/p-1703883-c-
8929.htm

These look like the good ones:
http://www.menards.com/main/deckestimator/deck-board-fastener-type/grip-
fast-2-1-2-gold-premium-exterior-deck-screw-1lb-box/p-1868572-c-8929.htm

(I'm not 100% sure and the screws are too far away to be sure.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 10/16/2013 7:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):
>>
>> http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>
> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
> another.

Basically, Simpson Strong-Tie, the lead dog manufacturer of hangers and
connectors specified by most Engineers, agrees with you that you should
be very careful which type fasteners are used in order to both maintain
code compliance, and Engineer specifications for the project:

http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html

(section "a", all bullet points)

This is one thing that one must take seriously in the business.

One of my most important, initial tasks on every construction project is
to carefully read the Engineer's specs for hangers and connectors (which
in all cases are very specific as to model number of the
hanger/connector), then running down/ordering all hangers/connectors,
and the required fasteners, for the framing crew _before_ they begin
work, PLUS spares!

Then I deliver them, and only as needed, myself.

(need some Simpson hangers, I have a few boxes of unused extras
somewhere) ;)

I even have Simpson's app on my iPad to help me with this task, as it
can be very difficult to find specified hangers in stock in even the
biggest cities.

One of the easiest things for an inspector to check, so they always check.

Not to mention that the Engineer _always_ checks for correct
hangers/connectors and fasteners) before he issues his required "As
Built" letter. One of the reasons I call them to approve any substitutions.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 19:33:47 -0700, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Think salty road slush that gets transferred by automobile or foot
> traffic.
>
> Gads, I get nauseous just thinking about that crap.

You might get nauseous just smelling it. The anti-caking ferrocyanide added
to the salt makes it even more corrosive as well as extremely toxic. That's
why I make my dog wear cute little booties even when it is not cold enough
to freeze off her toes. A lot of domestic animals die (liver & kidney
cancer) every year because they like the salty taste their paws pick up
when they go potty.

--
http://pages.videotron.com/duffym/index.htm

On 10/19/2013 11:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>
>
> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill

I just finished driving over 100 square recess head screws (2 1/2 and 3
inches long). They are supposed to be cam out resistant, but I'm
thinking now that that must be akin to water resistant VS water proof.
Anyway, what I came up with was to get the screw started before putting
enough pressure on the driver to cause it to start impacting. That way
I was able to put pressure on without the screw wanting to angle out. To
stay in the screw, I had to apply a lot more pressure than I had
anticipated. I don't know that it makes any difference, but my driver
is a 12V Milwaukee Electric.

HTH,
Mike

On 10/15/2013 8:33 PM, Bill wrote:

> Please let me know if you would suggest an alternative strategy. I am
> hoping that my fix lasts "for years and years".

Simply slip/add a shim to the bottom of the joist that fits inside the
hanger.

Nothing else is necessary ...

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 10/16/2013 9:54 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks Jeff. That's most-likely what I will do. I have other fish I
>> would like to fry!
>> I'll leave this project a little smarter and a little wiser....
>>
>
> Buy that man a beer! That's what it's all about Bill. There's a million
> ways to do everything and sure enough, you'll always think of, or have cause
> to discover yet one more, on every project.
>
> Case in point - I got wrangled into fixing a fiberglass truck cap for a
> friend. He's well into his 70's, not made out of money, and is a very good
> guy. He picked this thing up on the side of the road for $35. It had been
> hit by something and fractured the cap on the passenger side in a few
> different places. Someone tried to cob up a repair and made a complete
> disaster of it. So - it ends up at my place this morning.
>
> No problem, says I... I can fix that. I set about grinding out all of the
> previous "repair", and getting the thing back as close to its original
> damaged condition as God would allow. Then I undertake to start glassing it
> back together.
>
> Well, I'm well into the process of applying fiberglass before I realize I
> should have done something else which would have added a lot of strength to
> the repair. It would have taken some time, but it certainly would have made
> a much stronger repair.
>
> Too late, I decided. I'm just going to stay the course with what I've
> started. My repair is stout and will probably outlive the guy that owns it,
> but if I had thought of this idea earlier, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.
> The pisser is that it's not rocket science. It's just something I didn't
> think of at the time. I guess I got fixated on what would work, and didn't
> think any further - not to say that is the same situation you're in. Just
> saying - even when you know some things, you overlook, forget, don't think
> of - better ways. It's all about always learning - or always learning how
> to cover up for your mistakes...

Been there in a different way, I thought about it, said that would work,
then rushed in and forgot to do it... Doh...!!!


>


--
Jeff

On 10/16/2013 8:06 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

> Remove the beam, and reinstall the hanger. Before installing the new
> hanger, plug the old holes with a wooden dowel. Before you put the
> dowel in the hole, you could also put glue on the dowel before inserting
> it in the hole.
>
> To be a little more fancy, you could drill the hole out, then insert the
> dowel.
>
> It should have no affects on the strength, since the force on the screw
> is straight downward. There would never be any forces pulling away from
> the beam, as if the other end were lowered.

Not directed at you, Keith.

The proper way to install almost all joist hangers for the job Bill is
doing is to fill ALL the holes with NAILS made specifically for the purpose.

If joist hangers require screws, the spec's for the hanger will specify
exactly what's required.

I doubt seriously that Bill's joist hangers for this job need anything
other than the specified nails.

Bill, don't know whether you did or not, but never use deck or drywall
screws to install joist hangers (that's a sure fail should the job need
to pass an inspection, so build like an inspection is required and
you'll be guaranteed that you did it right).

Shear strength is the most important factor when using joist hangers and
you will not get it without the manufacturer's specified fastener for
the hanger.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 13:18:23 -0400, Bill wrote:

> basilisk wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of
>>>>>>> us that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this
>>>>>>> was an interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power
>>>>>>> tools you know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little)
>>>>>>> interesting too--not necessarily surprising.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-
>> advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
>>>>>> throat! There are others, but that's one.
>>>>> I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming,
>>>>> but I have no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what
>>>>> F****** is. Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of
>>>>> childish to spell this way.
>>>>>
>>>> You must not be on their mailing list...I used the right number of
>>>> asterisks.
>>> That and an apparent lack of imagination on my part. Weak minds like
>>> mine need most of the letter - or a picture...
>> I couldn't decipher the meaning either, it isn't just you.
>>
>> basilisk
>
>
> Gosh, you guys must be terrible at those word games in the newspaper. My
> wife likes them. I was saying, by the email I get from them every-other
> day:
>
> I think Rockler is trying to cram Festool down my throat!
>
> But I was trying not to do additional marketing on their behalf. You
> must not be on their email list.

I'm not on their mailing list...

I know this will shock and confuse the woodworking masses, but I have
never purchased anything from Rockler, and while I'm in the confessional,
I have never been in a Woodcraft either.

basilisk

On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little) interesting too--not
> necessarily surprising.
>
>
> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>
>
> Bill


In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my throat!
There are others, but that's one.

On 10/11/2013 10:59 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
>> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
>> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
>> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little) interesting too--not
>> necessarily surprising.
>>
>>
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my throat!
> There are others, but that's one.

Why don't they add: "Proudly made in Germany!"?! :)

Clearly, the retailer wishes the consumer to associate them with a brand
name "synonymous with quality" rather than over-priced cheap stuff.

Anyone who doesn't believe it can just look at the price--as if that is
evidence of value.

Bill wrote:
> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
>> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
>> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
>> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little) interesting
>> too--not necessarily surprising.
>>
>>
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
> throat! There are others, but that's one.

I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming, but I have
no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what F****** is.

Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of childish to spell this
way.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
>>> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
>>> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
>>> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little) interesting
>>> too--not necessarily surprising.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
>> throat! There are others, but that's one.
> I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming, but I have
> no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what F****** is.
>
> Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of childish to spell this
> way.
>
You must not be on their mailing list...I used the right number of
asterisks.
I just feel a little "over-advertised to" today.

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of
>>>> us that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this
>>>> was an interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power
>>>> tools you know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little)
>>>> interesting too--not necessarily surprising.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
>>> throat! There are others, but that's one.
>> I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming,
>> but I have no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what
>> F****** is. Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of childish
>> to
>> spell this way.
>>
> You must not be on their mailing list...I used the right number of
> asterisks.

That and an apparent lack of imagination on my part. Weak minds like mine
need most of the letter - or a picture...

> I just feel a little "over-advertised to" today.

I understand that.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

basilisk wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
>>>>>> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
>>>>>> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
>>>>>> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little)
>>>>>> interesting too--not necessarily surprising.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-
> advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
>>>>> throat! There are others, but that's one.
>>>> I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming,
>>>> but I have no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what
>>>> F****** is. Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of
>>>> childish to spell this way.
>>>>
>>> You must not be on their mailing list...I used the right number of
>>> asterisks.
>> That and an apparent lack of imagination on my part. Weak minds like
>> mine need most of the letter - or a picture...
> I couldn't decipher the meaning either, it isn't just you.
>
> basilisk


Gosh, you guys must be terrible at those word games in the newspaper. My
wife likes them. I was saying, by the email I get from them every-other day:

I think Rockler is trying to cram Festool down my throat!

But I was trying not to do additional marketing on their behalf. You
must not be on their email list.

Bill wrote:
> basilisk wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote: t and an
>> apparent lack of imagination on my part. Weak minds like
>>> mine need most of the letter - or a picture...
>> I couldn't decipher the meaning either, it isn't just you.
>>
>> basilisk
>
>
> Gosh, you guys must be terrible at those word games in the newspaper.
> My wife likes them. I was saying, by the email I get from them
> every-other day:
>
> I think Rockler is trying to cram Festool down my throat!
>
> But I was trying not to do additional marketing on their behalf. You
> must not be on their email list.

By the way, it's a nice day for deck repair work. I'm just in for lunch
break. I have to "break-in"(set-up) my miter saw for the next step...

Cheers,
Bill

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> By the way, it's a nice day for deck repair work. I'm just in for lunch
>> break. I have to "break-in"(set-up) my miter saw for the next step...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bill
> It is... except for that 10 minute downpour. Tools and guys headed for
> cover, and basically had to set up all over again.
>
> We got it done. I even spray painted a screw gold and drove it in last.
>
> Puckdropper
Congratulations! Any project with a gold screw has got to be a good one.

I spent the afternoon working on setting up my miter saw. I mounted the
miter saw to the end of a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of particleboard with
two 2by4s running length-wise underneath, the whole she-bang resting on
2 strong saw-horses. The bolts-washers, lockwashers holding the saw
are inset into the 2by4s--which is what help make the hours go by... It
was a good opportunity to practice with my DP, and I used it as
such--like I was metalworking. This was the first time I used it on a
project.

My first 2 out of 3 test cuts on a 2by4 failed (to be good 90-degree
cuts)--and I was using a clamp all 3 times (clamping widthwise, against
the fence, with an F-clamp). Once, the piece slipped a little, and once
the bevel wasn't upright. So, I am learning how to be careful. I don't
have any Trex to waste. By the way, I decided the Dewalt blade that
came with the DeWalt saw looked similar enough to the Irwin Marathon
that I may as well just try to use it.

Working at 35" above the ground only seems to make my infeed/outfeed
challenges harder. I think I'll place my platform right on my concrete
floor, tomorrow, and support with 2by4 and 4by4 scraps and newspaper
(maybe). I only need to make about 4 cuts, but they have to be good
ones (I need four 47 5/8" pieces from the two pieces I have that are
just a fraction of an inch over 8'). I spent a while thinking about the
best way to accomplished my cuts, and it occurred to me, during dinner,
that I am not I am not getting extra kudos for working 35" above the
ground! : ) It's will be easier to construct temporary 5 3/4" high
infeed/outfeed tables!!

Bill

Bill wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> By the way, it's a nice day for deck repair work. I'm just in for
>>> lunch
>>> break. I have to "break-in"(set-up) my miter saw for the next step...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Bill
>> It is... except for that 10 minute downpour. Tools and guys headed for
>> cover, and basically had to set up all over again.
>>
>> We got it done. I even spray painted a screw gold and drove it in last.
>>
>> Puckdropper
> Congratulations! Any project with a gold screw has got to be a good one.
>
> I spent the afternoon working on setting up my miter saw. I mounted
> the miter saw to the end of a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of particleboard
> with two 2by4s running length-wise underneath, the whole she-bang
> resting on 2 strong saw-horses. The bolts-washers, lockwashers
> holding the saw are inset into the 2by4s--which is what help make the
> hours go by... It was a good opportunity to practice with my DP, and I
> used it as such--like I was metalworking. This was the first time I
> used it on a project.
>
> My first 2 out of 3 test cuts on a 2by4 failed (to be good 90-degree
> cuts)--and I was using a clamp all 3 times (clamping widthwise,
> against the fence, with an F-clamp). Once, the piece slipped a
> little, and once the bevel wasn't upright. So, I am learning how to be
> careful. I don't have any Trex to waste. By the way, I decided the
> Dewalt blade that came with the DeWalt saw looked similar enough to
> the Irwin Marathon that I may as well just try to use it.
>
> Working at 35" above the ground only seems to make my infeed/outfeed
> challenges harder. I think I'll place my platform right on my
> concrete floor, tomorrow, and support with 2by4 and 4by4 scraps and
> newspaper (maybe). I only need to make about 4 cuts, but they have to
> be good ones (I need four 47 5/8" pieces from the two pieces I have
> that are just a fraction of an inch over 8'). I spent a while
> thinking about the best way to accomplished my cuts, and it occurred
> to me, during dinner, that I am not I am not getting extra kudos for
> working 35" above the ground! : ) It's will be easier to construct
> temporary 5 3/4" high infeed/outfeed tables!!
>
> Bill
>
By the way, I left a quarter-sheet of 3/4" particle board and 3/4"
plywood outside leaning against the house to "out-gas" for the last 4
years. Each of them had their day in making me sick because of their
Formaldehyde content (most-likely)! ; ) The plywood had a bit a
bow/warp to it, but the particle board was as flat as if I had taken
good care of it. I would have expected the plywood to have been heartier
than the particleboard... I wore a dust-mask this time, as I drilled
the particleboard--It was "hand-sanding" that got my in trouble (and not
being aware of chemical issues at the time). Hardy anyone discloses that
some of these man-made products might not be great for people. However,
I am glad to see it discussed a bit more often in the media.

Bill wrote:

> I spent the afternoon working on setting up my miter saw. I mounted
> the miter saw to the end of a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of particleboard
> with two 2by4s running length-wise underneath, the whole she-bang
> resting on 2 strong saw-horses. The bolts-washers, lockwashers
> holding the saw are inset into the 2by4s--which is what help make the
> hours go by... It was a good opportunity to practice with my DP, and
> I used it as such--like I was metalworking. This was the first time I
> used it on a project.
>

Good job Bill. It's good to finally get down to using those new tools,
isn't it?

>
> Working at 35" above the ground only seems to make my infeed/outfeed
> challenges harder. I think I'll place my platform right on my
> concrete floor, tomorrow, and support with 2by4 and 4by4 scraps and
> newspaper (maybe). I only need to make about 4 cuts, but they have
> to be good ones (I need four 47 5/8" pieces from the two pieces I
> have that are just a fraction of an inch over 8'). I spent a while
> thinking about the best way to accomplished my cuts, and it occurred
> to me, during dinner, that I am not I am not getting extra kudos for
> working 35" above the ground! : ) It's will be easier to construct
> temporary 5 3/4" high infeed/outfeed tables!!
>

Ugh! God bless ya brother. Never would I chose to work at floor level over
working at waist level. Just make sure you pay attention to which side of
your cut line is your waste side. It'll piss ya right off every time you
cut on the wrong side of the mark. Hopefully you're indicating the waste
side in some way when you measure out your marks.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:

I spent a while
thinking about the best way to accomplished my cuts, and it occurred
to me, during dinner, that I am not I am not getting extra kudos for
working 35" above the ground! : ) It's will be easier to construct
temporary 5 3/4" high infeed/outfeed tables!!

> Ugh! God bless ya brother. Never would I chose to work at floor level over
> working at waist level.
I was planning to work at waist level. When I left the "shop" I was
thinking I needed a "roller stand".
But for the amount of cutting I have to do, it was an "Aha" moment when
I realized I should work on the floor.
At least I'll try, and see how it goes.


> Just make sure you pay attention to which side of
> your cut line is your waste side. It'll piss ya right off every time you
> cut on the wrong side of the mark. Hopefully you're indicating the waste
> side in some way when you measure out your marks.
I went through quite a bit of extra drywall making bad cuts like that.
I mentioned earlier, even 2 out of 3 cuts I did for practice turned out
to be bad cuts. But that's what the "practice cuts" were for--to get
those bad ones out of the way.

It would be nice if Dewalt included a "vertical clamp" with their miter
saws, but they don't. I looked once, and it was a very pricey accessory
(partly due to limited supply). Having one, however, would take away
one of biggest challenges here--properly balancing 8' of stuff.

Maybe I'll check and see if Lowes has them, but probably not.
Thanks for your support!

Cheers,
Bill

Bill wrote:

>
> It would be nice if Dewalt included a "vertical clamp" with their
> miter saws, but they don't. I looked once, and it was a very pricey
> accessory (partly due to limited supply). Having one, however, would
> take away one of biggest challenges here--properly balancing 8' of
> stuff.

Well - check HF if you're not opposed. I think you'll like using stands to
support your stock, more than you'll like all of that bending down and
getting up. Here's the url for the HF stands.

http://www.harborfreight.com/132-lb-capacity-roller-stand-68898.html

I have the other model they sell, but I'd have these if they had been
available when I bought mine. You don't really need rollers for a miter saw
since you don't slide work through a miter, but for the price they are
great. You'll find them useful for other things as well.

My saw has one of those clamps to hold stock to the miter saw table, but I'm
not sold on it. Too close to the saw for it to be good for long stuff, and
a nusance to loosen and reposition for every cut. I think you'll find
stands to be much more to your liking - and as I said, multi purpose. They
work very well for infeed/outfeed for my table saw, etc., which you will
come to like as your aresenal of toys grows.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> It would be nice if Dewalt included a "vertical clamp" with their
>> miter saws, but they don't. I looked once, and it was a very pricey
>> accessory (partly due to limited supply). Having one, however, would
>> take away one of biggest challenges here--properly balancing 8' of
>> stuff.
> Well - check HF if you're not opposed. I think you'll like using stands to
> support your stock, more than you'll like all of that bending down and
> getting up. Here's the url for the HF stands.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/132-lb-capacity-roller-stand-68898.html
>
Thanks Mike! That looks like just what I need. I knew in the back of
my mind that such equipment was available, but I didn't realize it was
available for $12.99! : )
I have no doubt that it will be convenient to have around.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> It would be nice if Dewalt included a "vertical clamp" with their
>> miter saws, but they don't. I looked once, and it was a very pricey
>> accessory (partly due to limited supply). Having one, however, would
>> take away one of biggest challenges here--properly balancing 8' of
>> stuff.
> Well - check HF if you're not opposed. I think you'll like using stands to
> support your stock, more than you'll like all of that bending down and
> getting up. Here's the url for the HF stands.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/132-lb-capacity-roller-stand-68898.html
Mike, I really like the roller stand! With my 25%-off coupon, it came
to $9.74 before taxes. I regard it as a definite bargain, and I am
pleased to have the stand in my "arsenal". I can tell (now) that the
person who put together the floor model at the store had the same
trouble I did (from the lack of decent directions!). Eventually I
"flipped the top the opposite way", and then I was able to get both of
the nuts and bolts in, not just one. Maybe that will help save someone
else a little time.

Just before assembling the stand, I installed the DeWalt LED "worklight
system" for the miter saw. I am glad that I bought that accessory for
the saw. Comparing it with the line you've drawn, it provides one more
check that the blade is going to cut perpendicular to the edge of the
board. The fence on the saw is a little short to be confident without
it. At least in one case today, it saved my cut from being off by a few
degrees. I think I can cut now to within about 1/32"-3/64 (at worst)
using the LED and a flashlight. Actually, it's pretty tough to see the
pencil line with all of the light. Anyone marking lines with something
besides a pencil (besides a knife)?

I was reminded of Roy Underhill's joke: "He who marks the center of a
circle more than one time is never quite as sure where the center is as
the man who marks it once." Thus(ly), I made a point of just drawing
one marking line, and keeping track of whether I wanted to cut to the
left or right of it. You sort of got me thinking along those lines in
one of your recent posts, and that was helpful.

Anyway, much to my relief (!), now I have a neat stack of 4 Trex boards
meeting my specs, with about 1 1/2" left over (whew!) I still need to
rip one of them lengthwise with my CS.

By the way, a plastic garbage can with 2 folding chairs and a piece of
carpet on it will serve as a roller stand too, when one need two roller
stands! : ) It's a good thing I bought the roller stand though as I
only have one such garbage can! No seriously now, being "continuously
adjustable" (between 25" and 42"), the rolling stand is a joy! It even
looks decent (well-packaged too, except for the directions).


> I have the other model they sell, but I'd have these if they had been
> available when I bought mine. You don't really need rollers for a miter saw
> since you don't slide work through a miter, but for the price they are
> great. You'll find them useful for other things as well.
>
> My saw has one of those clamps to hold stock to the miter saw table, but I'm
> not sold on it.
Thank you for that review. I'll save my $50 for a "rainy day". Probably
lots of people may not have heard that expression.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill wrote:
> Actually, it's pretty tough to see the pencil line with all of the
> light. Anyone marking lines with something besides a pencil (besides a
> knife)?

Duh, it doesn't help that I was drawing on stuff that was close in color
to "cranberry". For wood, except for some exotic varieties (like
Ebony), this wouldn't be an issue.

Puckdropper wrote:
> Roller stands, saw horses, and clamps are things you almost always
> need pairs of. Time to head back to the store and complete the pair...
> ;-) Puckdropper

It sort of pains me to spend money, but I think you may be right about
this. You did me a favor directing me to the Porter Cable Forstner bit
set at Lowes too.

Speaking of money, have you observed any of the price increases at Grizzly?

Bill

Bill wrote:

>> http://www.harborfreight.com/132-lb-capacity-roller-stand-68898.html
> Mike, I really like the roller stand! With my 25%-off coupon, it came
> to $9.74 before taxes. I regard it as a definite bargain, and I am
> pleased to have the stand in my "arsenal". I can tell (now) that the
> person who put together the floor model at the store had the same
> trouble I did (from the lack of decent directions!). Eventually I
> "flipped the top the opposite way", and then I was able to get both of
> the nuts and bolts in, not just one. Maybe that will help save someone
> else a little time.
>

Glad it worked out for you.

> Just before assembling the stand, I installed the DeWalt LED
> "worklight system" for the miter saw. I am glad that I bought that
> accessory for the saw. Comparing it with the line you've drawn, it
> provides one more check that the blade is going to cut perpendicular
> to the edge of the board. The fence on the saw is a little short to
> be confident without it. At least in one case today, it saved my cut
> from being off by a few degrees. I think I can cut now to within
> about 1/32"-3/64 (at worst) using the LED and a flashlight. Actually,
> it's pretty tough to see the pencil line with all of the light. Anyone
> marking lines with something besides a pencil (besides a
> knife)?

I almost always just use a pencil but I have been known to use a screw or a
nail to scribe a mark when a pencil wasn't handy.

>
> I was reminded of Roy Underhill's joke: "He who marks the center of a
> circle more than one time is never quite as sure where the center is
> as the man who marks it once." Thus(ly), I made a point of just
> drawing one marking line, and keeping track of whether I wanted to
> cut to the left or right of it. You sort of got me thinking along
> those lines in one of your recent posts, and that was helpful.

I surrendered to the reality that I would certainly forget which was the
waste side of a cut, so now I make every measurement mark with a tick mark.
Think of a check mark. I just make a mark at my measurement point, and then
tick off to the waste side of the mark. After that I can lay a square on
the mark and draw a complete cut line. Any kind of a mark will do, just
come up with something that makes sense to you. My FIL used to always make
his tick marks on the save side of the mark. That just never made sense to
me, so I do it my way.

>
> By the way, a plastic garbage can with 2 folding chairs and a piece of
> carpet on it will serve as a roller stand too, when one need two
> roller stands! : ) It's a good thing I bought the roller stand
> though as I only have one such garbage can! No seriously now, being
> "continuously adjustable" (between 25" and 42"), the rolling stand is
> a joy! It even looks decent (well-packaged too, except for the
> directions).

Good reason to go back to HF for another one of those stands Bill. You
won't find that owning 2 of them is overkill. I do use just one most of the
time, but especially with my miter, I find that supporting both ends of a
piece of stock is required often enough to justify owning 2. Or... I use
one at my miter and one at my TS.

One word of caution that may be obvious, but never try to use your CS to cut
stock on a roller stand. Use saw horses. Roller stands are for support -
not a work surface. I guess to clarify that - it's fine to support the wild
end of a work piece with a roller stand while cutting at a saw horse, but
don't use your new stand to try to rip a board.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> One word of caution that may be obvious, but never try to use your CS
> to cut stock on a roller stand. Use saw horses. Roller stands are for
> support - not a work surface. I guess to clarify that - it's fine to
> support the wild end of a work piece with a roller stand while cutting
> at a saw horse, but don't use your new stand to try to rip a board.

Yes, at one point, I was thinking that a pair of roller stands would be
as helpful as a pair or saw horses for making a temporary work
surface--and lighter and faster. Then it occurred to me all of the
things that could go wrong!

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>> Roller stands, saw horses, and clamps are things you almost always
>>> need pairs of. Time to head back to the store and complete the
>>> pair... ;-) Puckdropper
>> It sort of pains me to spend money, but I think you may be right about
>> this. You did me a favor directing me to the Porter Cable Forstner
>> bit set at Lowes too.
>>
>> Speaking of money, have you observed any of the price increases at
>> Grizzly?
>>
>> Bill
>>
> You're not spending money. You're investing in tools.

Yes, I'll be watching for their "holiday sale". For me, celebrating
their "30 year anniversary" with substantial price increases takes not
just a little of the fun out of it.

>
> Puckdropper

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> One word of caution that may be obvious, but never try to use your CS
>> to cut stock on a roller stand. Use saw horses. Roller stands are for
>> support - not a work surface. I guess to clarify that - it's fine to
>> support the wild end of a work piece with a roller stand while
>> cutting at a saw horse, but don't use your new stand to try to rip a
>> board.
>
> Yes, at one point, I was thinking that a pair of roller stands would
> be as helpful as a pair or saw horses for making a temporary work
> surface--and lighter and faster. Then it occurred to me all of the
> things that could go wrong!

You thought well Bill. A pair of them is still a good idea, but as we've
thrown about - it's just a matter of using them properly. Now - go buy some
more toys and do some more stuff. Ain't that just the best part of
woodworking?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>
>> Yes, at one point, I was thinking that a pair of roller stands would
>> be as helpful as a pair or saw horses for making a temporary work
>> surface--and lighter and faster. Then it occurred to me all of the
>> things that could go wrong!
> You thought well Bill. A pair of them is still a good idea, but as we've
> thrown about - it's just a matter of using them properly. Now - go buy some
> more toys and do some more stuff. Ain't that just the best part of
> woodworking?
>
When I started this deck-fixing project, I greatly underestimated it! I
almost felt silly for bringing it up here in the first place. I told me
wife a while back, I said, "It will probably take 2 and a half hours
after I have all the stuff--a half day". Indeed, I suspect that there
are plenty of folks here who could actually do it in maybe half that
much time. I could do better time-wise myself if I could start over! ;
) FWIW, I do tidy up, vacuum, and pick up tools in between days (must
have learned that in H.S. Shop class, or maybe 'suggestions' from Dad, lol)

I did not anticipate, for instant, that I would need to cut my "braces"
at an angle at one end since the faces they fit between are not quite
parallel. I took care of that with a slight bit of geometry
(proportions) and by cutting a piece to approximate length and then
cutting a miter. I realize in retrospect that I make the cut the hard
way. I built up my fence, as required, with cardboard pieces to create
the angle I needed when I could have just adjusted the saw (duh!, Well I
never had one before!). It snapped at me the second time I tried that
too--snapping the work against the fence. Swingman's warnings along that
line were totally *not wasted* on me. I might have thought I could
just grab the piece and cut the angle I wanted--but Swingman informed me
to know better (to keep my fingers outta there!)

So with less fiddling than I might have anticipated after I fit the
first one, I had my 3 braces fitting with friction. I adjust them
vertically with a flat piece of wood I lay accross the top of all of
them (and the end ones)--where the decking material will lie. An aside:
One should do something similar when they install drywall too, or they
will pay (DAMHIKT)! The supports on the end are already there, so I
just move my braces by hand to be coplanar with them and then I tried
to fit the joist-hanger(s) on. Hmmm...I screwed around with that for 45
minutes at least, and then took a break for dinner--eating a sandwich
outside, right there in front of them. Neighbor's dog came by for a
small bite, and he left with no more than that. He could tell there was
serious business (arcane reference to "The Little Rascals") going on.
It occured to me to try to use masking tape to hold a joist hanger snug
with the bottom of a beam along with hand clamp over the top of the
joist to snug both sides of the hanger to the beam before I predrill and
screw it on. The tape and the clamp made what was "impossible" much
simpler. Of course, the Stainless-steel sheet metal screws are easily
stripped, even by the impact drill, I stripped 5 by the time I got 8
in, but I figured out what my vice-grips are good for. So I am at 1
pair of joist-hangers in, with 2 pair to go. I had to quit on account
of darkness. But I completed "the hard brace--the first one, and its
precisely where it's supposed to be. I hope your day contained some joy
for you too, and I hope that you enjoyed my story.

Bill

Bill wrote:

> When I started this deck-fixing project, I greatly underestimated it!
> I almost felt silly for bringing it up here in the first place. I
> told me wife a while back, I said, "It will probably take 2 and a
> half hours after I have all the stuff--a half day". Indeed, I suspect
> that there
> are plenty of folks here who could actually do it in maybe half that
> much time. I could do better time-wise myself if I could start over!
> ; ) FWIW, I do tidy up, vacuum, and pick up tools in between days
> (must have learned that in H.S. Shop class, or maybe 'suggestions'
> from Dad, lol)

So - it's time for a story. I just did a bathroom remodel. It is a small
bathroom and I had to strip it down to the studs, as well as replace some
rotted flooring. Then - start anew. The electrical work was a walk in the
park. The plumbing was ok - but we all know that plumbing is just of the
devil! Sheetrock was fine except that I discovered that I can't carry
sheets of rock like I used to do... Then came the really evil part. Tile.
There is nothing on this earth that is worse than plumbing, and more evil
than tile work. So, you talk about time - I bet I spent at least 3 times as
long as anyone who is experienced with tile work, doing this job. Three
days to do a tub surround and a small floor. All of it painful, agonizing,
and simply of the devil. Screw those guys that do this stuff for a
living...

>
> I did not anticipate, for instant, that I would need to cut my
> "braces" at an angle at one end since the faces they fit between are not
> quite
> parallel. I took care of that with a slight bit of geometry
> (proportions) and by cutting a piece to approximate length and then
> cutting a miter. I realize in retrospect that I make the cut the hard
> way. I built up my fence, as required, with cardboard pieces to
> create the angle I needed when I could have just adjusted the saw
> (duh!, Well I never had one before!).

Ha! That's funny. Don't ya just love how these lessons come to us? And
then how damned dumb we feel afterwards!

> I tried to fit the joist-hanger(s) on. Hmmm...I screwed around with that
> for
> 45 minutes at least, and then took a break for dinner--eating a
> sandwich outside, right there in front of them. Neighbor's dog came
> by for a small bite, and he left with no more than that. He could tell
> there
> was serious business (arcane reference to "The Little Rascals") going on.

Geezus Bill - you're advancing to Senior Woodworker in record time. You
actually got the dog involved this quickly? I'm impressed.


> It occured to me to try to use masking tape to hold a joist hanger
> snug with the bottom of a beam along with hand clamp over the top of
> the joist to snug both sides of the hanger to the beam before I predrill
> and screw it on. The tape and the clamp made what was "impossible"
> much simpler. Of course, the Stainless-steel sheet metal screws are
> easily stripped, even by the impact drill, I stripped 5 by the time
> I got 8 in,

You should have said "especially" with the impact drill. Remember - the
tool that gives you the greatest amount of feel is the best tool to use. I
wholey disagree with the current rage of thinking that impact guns are the
best tool to use. That's only because they are new to so many people. Time
will come...


> but I figured out what my vice-grips are good for. So I am at 1
> pair of joist-hangers in, with 2 pair to go. I had to quit on
> account of darkness. But I completed "the hard brace--the first one, and
> its
> precisely where it's supposed to be. I hope your day contained some
> joy for you too, and I hope that you enjoyed my story.

Hell - I enjoyed your story. You're probably being way to anal with your
joist hangers but who the heck cares! You're making shit happen, and isn't
that just great? Press on brother!


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> So - it's time for a story. I just did a bathroom remodel. It is a
> small bathroom and I had to strip it down to the studs, as well as
> replace some rotted flooring. Then - start anew. The electrical work
> was a walk in the park. The plumbing was ok - but we all know that
> plumbing is just of the devil! Sheetrock was fine except that I
> discovered that I can't carry sheets of rock like I used to do... Then
> came the really evil part. Tile. There is nothing on this earth that
> is worse than plumbing, and more evil than tile work. So, you talk
> about time - I bet I spent at least 3 times as long as anyone who is
> experienced with tile work, doing this job. Three days to do a tub
> surround and a small floor. All of it painful, agonizing, and simply
> of the devil. Screw those guys that do this stuff for a living...

Did you spend most of your time trying to cut curves in tile, or what is
something else? Trying to cut a concave curve in tile sounds tough to
me--but I'm almost clueless on the subject. I learned a little in
recent weeks as I have a few cracked kitchen tiles to replace--a
relative walk in the park compared to your job.

Bill

Bill wrote:

>
> Did you spend most of your time trying to cut curves in tile, or what
> is something else? Trying to cut a concave curve in tile sounds
> tough to me--but I'm almost clueless on the subject. I learned a
> little in recent weeks as I have a few cracked kitchen tiles to
> replace--a relative walk in the park compared to your job.
>

Nope. I had hole saws to cut the tile for the plumbing so the cutting
wasn't all that bad. It was just the process of mudding and back buttering
and laying the tile. Then going back and grouting. Then washing. I'm just
very slow at tile work. I told the owner to get his house placed on the
national registry of historic homes because this was going to go down in
history as the last house Mike Marlow ever tiled.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Did you spend most of your time trying to cut curves in tile, or what
>> is something else? Trying to cut a concave curve in tile sounds
>> tough to me--but I'm almost clueless on the subject. I learned a
>> little in recent weeks as I have a few cracked kitchen tiles to
>> replace--a relative walk in the park compared to your job.
>>
> Nope. I had hole saws to cut the tile for the plumbing so the cutting
> wasn't all that bad. It was just the process of mudding and back buttering
> and laying the tile. Then going back and grouting. Then washing. I'm just
> very slow at tile work. I told the owner to get his house placed on the
> national registry of historic homes because this was going to go down in
> history as the last house Mike Marlow ever tiled.
>
That was worth a genuine LOL!
Sounds like you should have used larger tiles! : )

I installed my joist-hangers today. But in testing my "beams" (standing
on them), one end of one of them slipped, further into the hanger, about
1/4" to 5/16". The others are "true".

My plan is to cut a 5" long strip of long grain from the same
pressure-treated wood, about 1/4" in height (width?), and screw it to
the end of the bottom of the beam with a few 1" Stain Steel wood screws,
preferably with the heads inset just a little, so I don't have any
metal-to-metal contact between the screws and the hanger.

Please let me know if you would suggest an alternative strategy. I am
hoping that my fix lasts "for years and years".

I'll be happy to wrap this project up, but I surely "got something" out
of working through it.

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. I broke four PH-1 Impact bits in all. A little user applied
pressure helps avoid stripping them, but one needs to ease up once the
screw is set! I found out PH-1's are more fragile than PH-2's, I think.

Bill wrote:

> I installed my joist-hangers today. But in testing my "beams"
> (standing on them), one end of one of them slipped, further into the
> hanger, about 1/4" to 5/16". The others are "true".

Could it be that your hanger is not installed correctly at that end?

>
> My plan is to cut a 5" long strip of long grain from the same
> pressure-treated wood, about 1/4" in height (width?), and screw it to
> the end of the bottom of the beam with a few 1" Stain Steel wood
> screws, preferably with the heads inset just a little, so I don't
> have any metal-to-metal contact between the screws and the hanger.

I would not worry at all about metal to metal contact. There's no issue
with metal to metal, so I don't see why you would try to avoid that. I
probably would not even screw the pieces together. Slap some wood glue on
it if reinstalling the hanger is not the proper solution, and be done with
it.

>
> Please let me know if you would suggest an alternative strategy. I am
> hoping that my fix lasts "for years and years".
>

What will you have to look forward to if it lasts for years and years?


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I installed my joist-hangers today. But in testing my "beams"
>> (standing on them), one end of one of them slipped, further into the
>> hanger, about 1/4" to 5/16". The others are "true".
> Could it be that your hanger is not installed correctly at that end?

I guess you could say it's 1/4" too low. It was one of my earliest
efforts. But like you or WoodChucker mentioned earlier, I'm learning to
"fix problems as I go along".

>> My plan is to cut a 5" long strip of long grain from the same
>> pressure-treated wood, about 1/4" in height (width?), and screw it to
>> the end of the bottom of the beam with a few 1" Stain Steel wood
>> screws, preferably with the heads inset just a little, so I don't
>> have any metal-to-metal contact between the screws and the hanger.
> I would not worry at all about metal to metal contact. There's no issue
> with metal to metal, so I don't see why you would try to avoid that.
The beam is resting in the joist hanger. I was thinking I don't want to
hear a screw hit the hanger when I use the step.


> I
> probably would not even screw the pieces together. Slap some wood glue on
> it if reinstalling the hanger is not the proper solution, and be done with
> it.
Reinstalling the hanger is an interesting thought. I think it's better
not to put 4 new screw holes next to the ones I just made--1/4" away.
"Safer" to add the strip of wood in this regard. As you suggest, no
reason to make a mountain out of a molehill. I'm not willing to give up
the
symmetry of having nails evenly spaced. When you're just beginning to
establish your reputation, appearance counts for a lot! : )
>
>> Please let me know if you would suggest an alternative strategy. I am
>> hoping that my fix lasts "for years and years".
>>
> What will you have to look forward to if it lasts for years and years?
>

Not taking it all apart and doing it again! : )
Actually, I'm pretty sure I'll be repairing or replacing the "step box"
someday. I'm in no hurry to do so.

Cheers,
Bill

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>> P.S. I broke four PH-1 Impact bits in all. A little user applied
>> pressure helps avoid stripping them, but one needs to ease up once the
>> screw is set! I found out PH-1's are more fragile than PH-2's, I think.
> Why are you using #1 Phillips bits? Every construction screw I've come
> across with a Phillips head has used #2 Phillips.

These were Stainless Steel sheet metal screws. Appropriate choice for
exterior use? I would have preferred #2 Phillips heads.



>
> Puckdropper

Bill wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]: *snip*
>>
>>> P.S. I broke four PH-1 Impact bits in all. A little user applied
>>> pressure helps avoid stripping them, but one needs to ease up once
>>> the screw is set! I found out PH-1's are more fragile than PH-2's,
>>> I think.
>> Why are you using #1 Phillips bits? Every construction screw I've
>> come across with a Phillips head has used #2 Phillips.
>
> These were Stainless Steel sheet metal screws. Appropriate choice for
> exterior use? I would have preferred #2 Phillips heads.
>

I too was kind of surprised to see you used #1 head screws. I almost never
run into those. SS is indeed a good choice for outdoor use, just surprised
at the head. Did you actually try a #2 tip in the heads to verify that it
would not fit, or were you just going by eye? Smaller screws often appear
to require a smaller tip, but in fact are really sized for #2. Of course, I
don't know about the ones you used.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/15/2013 11:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Could it be that your hanger is not installed correctly at that end?

Remove the beam, and reinstall the hanger. Before installing the new
hanger, plug the old holes with a wooden dowel. Before you put the
dowel in the hole, you could also put glue on the dowel before inserting
it in the hole.

To be a little more fancy, you could drill the hole out, then insert the
dowel.

It should have no affects on the strength, since the force on the screw
is straight downward. There would never be any forces pulling away from
the beam, as if the other end were lowered.

Swingman wrote:
>
> I doubt seriously that Bill's joist hangers for this job need anything
> other than the specified nails.
>
> Bill, don't know whether you did or not, but never use deck or drywall
> screws to install joist hangers (that's a sure fail should the job
> need to pass an inspection, so build like an inspection is required
> and you'll be guaranteed that you did it right).
>
> Shear strength is the most important factor when using joist hangers
> and you will not get it without the manufacturer's specified fastener
> for the hanger.
>

FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):

http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm

I have strived not to be negligent on this project. The step was
actually still functional when there weren't any braces at all, so no
one should panic. I am still going to add some deck screws from the side
as was proposed when the details were first discussed. Assuming my
screws have adequate shear strength, the repair should be at a
significantly higher standard of care than that used on it's last
go-around (which used no joist-hangers but only lightweight-interior
screws--which rusted and broke). I am also using three braces at 12"
centers, instead of two on 16" centers, besides the existing end bracing.

It has been pointed out to me that the dog next door has been successful
in using the step in it's existing condition--without any decking on it
at all!
I appreciate all of the collective wisdom that I have been given the
benefit of!

Bill

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):
>>
>> http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>
> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
> another.
>
> Lew

Thanks Lew. Well, then that issue exists with my new angle bracket
hardware too, though it's 3/16" ("triple galvanized") and not going to
rust through over night. You mean the people at Menard's misled me? : )

At this point I'm willing to use it until it fails, and then
replace/rebuild the entire step. If it lasts as long as a hot water
heater, I can live with that. I'll have a table saw by then and it will
not be a huge project. To borrow Mike's words, it will "Give me
something to look forward to"!

Bill

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):
>>
>> http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>
> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
> another.
>

Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just the
opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals indicates
galvanized and SS are very compatible.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:
> On 10/16/2013 9:06 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>> On 10/15/2013 11:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Could it be that your hanger is not installed correctly at that end?
>>
>> Remove the beam, and reinstall the hanger. Before installing the new
>> hanger, plug the old holes with a wooden dowel. Before you put the
>> dowel in the hole, you could also put glue on the dowel before inserting
>> it in the hole.
>>
>> To be a little more fancy, you could drill the hole out, then insert the
>> dowel.
>>
>> It should have no affects on the strength, since the force on the screw
>> is straight downward. There would never be any forces pulling away from
>> the beam, as if the other end were lowered.
> Bill you could move the hangers 1/2 inch to the side.
> But I agree with you that your shim will work.


Thanks Jeff. That's most-likely what I will do. I have other fish I
would like to fry!
I'll leave this project a little smarter and a little wiser....

Cheers,
Bill
>
> I don't think using the dowels is a good idea, you have screwed into
> the face, and dowels are end grain. Endgrain is not very strong in
> this situation.
>
>

Bill wrote:

>
> Thanks Jeff. That's most-likely what I will do. I have other fish I
> would like to fry!
> I'll leave this project a little smarter and a little wiser....
>

Buy that man a beer! That's what it's all about Bill. There's a million
ways to do everything and sure enough, you'll always think of, or have cause
to discover yet one more, on every project.

Case in point - I got wrangled into fixing a fiberglass truck cap for a
friend. He's well into his 70's, not made out of money, and is a very good
guy. He picked this thing up on the side of the road for $35. It had been
hit by something and fractured the cap on the passenger side in a few
different places. Someone tried to cob up a repair and made a complete
disaster of it. So - it ends up at my place this morning.

No problem, says I... I can fix that. I set about grinding out all of the
previous "repair", and getting the thing back as close to its original
damaged condition as God would allow. Then I undertake to start glassing it
back together.

Well, I'm well into the process of applying fiberglass before I realize I
should have done something else which would have added a lot of strength to
the repair. It would have taken some time, but it certainly would have made
a much stronger repair.

Too late, I decided. I'm just going to stay the course with what I've
started. My repair is stout and will probably outlive the guy that owns it,
but if I had thought of this idea earlier, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.
The pisser is that it's not rocket science. It's just something I didn't
think of at the time. I guess I got fixated on what would work, and didn't
think any further - not to say that is the same situation you're in. Just
saying - even when you know some things, you overlook, forget, don't think
of - better ways. It's all about always learning - or always learning how
to cover up for your mistakes...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>>
>>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>>> another.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "Mike Marlow" wrote:
>
>> Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just the
>> opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals indicates
>> galvanized and SS are very compatible.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Connect a sailboat galvanized anchor chain to a galvanized anchor
> using a S/S shackle and watch the S/S shackle disappear almost
> right before your eyes.
>
> Granted, salt water is involved most of the time but Indianapolis
> is still in the "rustbelt".
>
> Lew
>

*My brief research in the last hour indicates that salt water makes a
big difference. My deck has never seen salt, at least not by me.
There is a big difference between Indiana and Michigan, at least away
from "The Great Lakes".*

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>>
>>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>>> another.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "Mike Marlow" wrote:
>
>> Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just the
>> opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals indicates
>> galvanized and SS are very compatible.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Connect a sailboat galvanized anchor chain to a galvanized anchor
> using a S/S shackle and watch the S/S shackle disappear almost
> right before your eyes.
>
> Granted, salt water is involved most of the time but Indianapolis
> is still in the "rustbelt".
>

Nope - totally different issues. If you really looked at specs on materials
you would have seen there is a distinct difference between in-air and
under-water. You are drawing an inappropriate conclusion.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>>>
>>>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>>>> another.
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote:
>>
>>> Are you quite certain of this Lew? I had always understood just the
>>> opposite and a quick look on the net for dissimilar metals indicates
>>> galvanized and SS are very compatible.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Connect a sailboat galvanized anchor chain to a galvanized anchor
>> using a S/S shackle and watch the S/S shackle disappear almost
>> right before your eyes.
>>
>> Granted, salt water is involved most of the time but Indianapolis
>> is still in the "rustbelt".
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> *My brief research in the last hour indicates that salt water makes a
> big difference. My deck has never seen salt, at least not by me.
> There is a big difference between Indiana and Michigan, at least away
> from "The Great Lakes".*

Don't sweat it Bill. Lew's caution is well intended but it overlooks some
critical points. He's essentially applied applied apples to oranges. We do
that sometimes...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/17/2013 9:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/16/2013 7:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, I used these (4 on each joist hanger):
>>>
>>> http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/drywall/screws/sheet-metal/10-x-1-1-4-phillips-pan-sheet-metal-screw-stainless-7-pcs-box/p-1812947-c-8936.htm
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Are the joist hangers galvanized?
>>
>> If so, galvanized parts and S/S parts are NOT compatible with one
>> another.
>
> Basically, Simpson Strong-Tie, the lead dog manufacturer of hangers and
> connectors specified by most Engineers, agrees with you that you should
> be very careful which type fasteners are used in order to both maintain
> code compliance, and Engineer specifications for the project:
>
> http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html
>
> (section "a", all bullet points)
>
> This is one thing that one must take seriously in the business.
>
> One of my most important, initial tasks on every construction project is
> to carefully read the Engineer's specs for hangers and connectors (which
> in all cases are very specific as to model number of the
> hanger/connector), then running down/ordering all hangers/connectors,
> and the required fasteners, for the framing crew _before_ they begin
> work, PLUS spares!
>
> Then I deliver them, and only as needed, myself.
>
> (need some Simpson hangers, I have a few boxes of unused extras
> somewhere) ;)
>
> I even have Simpson's app on my iPad to help me with this task, as it
> can be very difficult to find specified hangers in stock in even the
> biggest cities.
>
> One of the easiest things for an inspector to check, so they always check.
>
> Not to mention that the Engineer _always_ checks for correct
> hangers/connectors and fasteners) before he issues his required "As
> Built" letter. One of the reasons I call them to approve any substitutions.
>

Thank you. I have my dad's PE stamp. Conveniently it has my name on it,
which I see that will be handy for my "As Built" letter! ; ) (just
kidding about that, of course)

I found your post informative!

Bill

Swingman wrote:

>
> Basically, Simpson Strong-Tie, the lead dog manufacturer of hangers
> and connectors specified by most Engineers, agrees with you that you
> should be very careful which type fasteners are used in order to both
> maintain code compliance, and Engineer specifications for the project:
>
> http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html
>

Well - ya learn something new every day. I looked at a few web sites that
deal with galvanic action and the likes and for in-air use they rate SS as
little to no action with galvanized. For fresh water submerged use it was
little to a little more. I didn't spend a lot of time looking but I didn't
see anything that cautioned against SS and galvanized. Shows to go ya...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Basically, Simpson Strong-Tie, the lead dog manufacturer of hangers
>> and connectors specified by most Engineers, agrees with you that you
>> should be very careful which type fasteners are used in order to both
>> maintain code compliance, and Engineer specifications for the
>> project: http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html
>>
>
> Well - ya learn something new every day. I looked at a few web sites
> that deal with galvanic action and the likes and for in-air use they
> rate SS as little to no action with galvanized. For fresh water
> submerged use it was little to a little more. I didn't spend a lot
> of time looking but I didn't see anything that cautioned against SS
> and galvanized. Shows to go ya...

I didn't see anything that cautioned against the use of SS on their web
site. A ton of information though! They do caution against SS smooth shank
nails due to the reduced holding strength compared to a ring shanked nail,
but that's all I saw.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> In the link above, Section a, bullet 3:
>
> "When using stainless-steel connectors, use stainless-steel fasteners.
> When using ZMAX®/HDG galvanized connectors, use fasteners that meet
> the zinc coating specifications of ASTM A153 or other fasteners
> allowed in this catalog."
>
> That's not to say that there may be some of their products where it
> would not make a difference, but as a general rule the above applies,
> IME.

Can you believe I looked at that link and made sure to read all of it after
seeing your post - and freakin' missed that! Oye...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

I couldn't find the exact post, but I think I recall Mike Marlow saying
that "impact drivers were over-rated".

I just want to share my experience from today, maybe I can learn something:

I have box of Trex "Trapease II" deck screws (evidently 1-S head, 2
3/4", plus the height of the head, long). My job was to install 40 of
them today.
Box of deck screws suggests not using impact driver, but driving them
"continuously"--yes, I know what that means.

I predrilled 1/8" as advised on a screw-seller's web site (and what I
had already determined from looking at the screws). In fact, based on
my experience below, I drilled at least 3" deep (I bought a drill bit
that was 6" long). Also bought some "impact ready" 1-S bits, even
though I didn't plant to use an impact driver. The bit I used held up
remarkably-well too!

Tried Bosch 18v driver: More bad results than good. I was spending more
time using a pair of vise grips, to that I could start over due to
"stripping" (and that is in the good case, when I really could start over).

Tried corded DeWalt 10 Amp variable speed drill: Surely this is the
ticket! No! No better than Bosch battery-powered driver.

Tried Bosch 18v impact driver: Ah, the first screw was a thing of
beauty. And my success rate, although not "perfect", increased to pretty
good.

I am left with a few screw heads that are not "just below the level of
the deck" (what the box recommends), and may have to remain that way
(unless anyone thinks these are removable).


In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S bit
fit, I assumed it was appropriate.

Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.

Thank you,
Bill

Bill wrote:
>
>
>
> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S
> bit fit, I assumed it was appropriate.

It appears R1X is deeper.

>
> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.
>
I just saw this video. I'll surely give the screw removal technique a
try.

http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html

> Thank you,
> Bill

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
>>> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S
>>> bit fit, I assumed it was appropriate.
>> It appears R1X is deeper.
>>
>>> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
>>> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow
>>> improve it.
>>>
>> I just saw this video. I'll surely give the screw removal
>> technique a try.
>>
>> http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Don't forget to hold that #2 with a pair of ViceGrips while you whack
> it with a hammer.
>
> Your fingers will thank you.
>
> Lew
>

I agree with that idea. It's been a while since I hit my finger with a
hammer--and I'd like to keep it that way!

Bill

No easy way.
I just installed 2500 sq. ft. of Trex. Of course I use the hidden trex deck
attachments.
Pretty funky but what the owner wanted. No screws showing.
We did have to screw a few places where the fascia board went etc.
I ended up pre-drilling. I even used the type of screw shown with the
reverse thread for pulling the mushroom
effect into the board. I had to stop screwing and remove excess debris from
the screw body before burying it.
So, yes, it is difficult. And if you hit a knot with one of those finish
screws.....they will break.
I also noticed that the spin of the screw heats up the body of the screw
making it break easier.
The owner helped for some time with a clutch Dewalt. His technique left
more work to do later since the clutch would stop on a hard
spot and not drive the screw all the way.
So I had to go back here and there and finish driving.
I use the Makita 18v impact driver, but you need a light touch.
It works well, although failure here and there is to be expected.
The square drive strip much easier than torque drive.
john

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...



I couldn't find the exact post, but I think I recall Mike Marlow saying
that "impact drivers were over-rated".

I just want to share my experience from today, maybe I can learn something:

I have box of Trex "Trapease II" deck screws (evidently 1-S head, 2
3/4", plus the height of the head, long). My job was to install 40 of
them today.
Box of deck screws suggests not using impact driver, but driving them
"continuously"--yes, I know what that means.

I predrilled 1/8" as advised on a screw-seller's web site (and what I
had already determined from looking at the screws). In fact, based on
my experience below, I drilled at least 3" deep (I bought a drill bit
that was 6" long). Also bought some "impact ready" 1-S bits, even
though I didn't plant to use an impact driver. The bit I used held up
remarkably-well too!

Tried Bosch 18v driver: More bad results than good. I was spending more
time using a pair of vise grips, to that I could start over due to
"stripping" (and that is in the good case, when I really could start over).

Tried corded DeWalt 10 Amp variable speed drill: Surely this is the
ticket! No! No better than Bosch battery-powered driver.

Tried Bosch 18v impact driver: Ah, the first screw was a thing of
beauty. And my success rate, although not "perfect", increased to pretty
good.

I am left with a few screw heads that are not "just below the level of
the deck" (what the box recommends), and may have to remain that way
(unless anyone thinks these are removable).


In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S bit
fit, I assumed it was appropriate.

Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.

Thank you,
Bill

Bill wrote:

> I couldn't find the exact post, but I think I recall Mike Marlow
> saying that "impact drivers were over-rated".

Yeah - I did say something to that effect. I use mine for sheet metal work
but not for woodworking.

>
> I predrilled 1/8" as advised on a screw-seller's web site (and what I
> had already determined from looking at the screws). In fact, based on
> my experience below, I drilled at least 3" deep (I bought a drill bit
> that was 6" long). Also bought some "impact ready" 1-S bits, even
> though I didn't plant to use an impact driver. The bit I used held up
> remarkably-well too!
>
> Tried Bosch 18v driver: More bad results than good. I was spending
> more time using a pair of vise grips, to that I could start over due
> to "stripping" (and that is in the good case, when I really could
> start over).
> Tried corded DeWalt 10 Amp variable speed drill: Surely this is the
> ticket! No! No better than Bosch battery-powered driver.
>
> Tried Bosch 18v impact driver: Ah, the first screw was a thing of
> beauty. And my success rate, although not "perfect", increased to
> pretty good.
>

Well - then that's what you go with. I've never used composite decking so
there may well be some nuance of it that indeed makes an impact the better
tool.

>
> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S
> bit fit, I assumed it was appropriate.

I'm guessing you meant to say 3 adapters rather than 3 drill bits. If the
R1 fit, it seems you should have been fine. Don't know what the -X is all
about.

>
> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve
> it.

Look here Bill - the video is worth more than words.

http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Don't forget to hold that #2 with a pair of ViceGrips while you whack
>> it with a hammer.
>>
>> Your fingers will thank you.
>>
>
> I agree with that idea. It's been a while since I hit my finger with
> a hammer--

Well then, you're overdue.

> and I'd like to keep it that way!

Chicken...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]
> Bill

jloomis wrote:
> No easy way.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. It's nice to know that some of
the problems I met with are "par for the course". It's also been
helpful to focus more on some strategies that I was indeed self-learning
on how to improve screw driving performance (I think being careful about
driving "straight down" is a good one--but didn't think about the
significance of that on the screw head until I read it in another
person's words).

The repair looks better in today's sunshine than it felt to my fingers
in the dark of last evening (I put the last 2 in with a flashlight). The
deck step is "open for business" but I will replace several of the
screws soon. I think this is not the day to begin a "screw extraction
project". I already having 10 screws in each 48" deck board. So in the
worst case scenario, I "drill out" what I can reach and tap/screw-in
some cut-off screws. Too much fun! -LOL

Anyone already tried those "screw extractors" on deck screws where you
drill with a 5/64" bit and then insert the extractor? Waste of time?
Here's my strategy (my wife says, "It looks good--leave it alone"), but
she is not as sensitive to details as I am:

(1) Try exacting "problem" screws with an S-2 bit, as suggested in the
video
(2) Try above mentioned screw extractor
(3) Drill out enough screw (without messing up the appearance of the
decking), to tap/screw-in a cut-off screw
-------------------
(4) If (3) fails, I can always PAINT the whole thing!! ; )

Cheers,
Bill


> I just installed 2500 sq. ft. of Trex. Of course I use the hidden
> trex deck attachments.
> Pretty funky but what the owner wanted. No screws showing.
> We did have to screw a few places where the fascia board went etc.
> I ended up pre-drilling. I even used the type of screw shown with the
> reverse thread for pulling the mushroom
> effect into the board. I had to stop screwing and remove excess
> debris from the screw body before burying it.
> So, yes, it is difficult. And if you hit a knot with one of those
> finish screws.....they will break.
> I also noticed that the spin of the screw heats up the body of the
> screw making it break easier.
> The owner helped for some time with a clutch Dewalt. His technique
> left more work to do later since the clutch would stop on a hard
> spot and not drive the screw all the way.
> So I had to go back here and there and finish driving.
> I use the Makita 18v impact driver, but you need a light touch.
> It works well, although failure here and there is to be expected.
> The square drive strip much easier than torque drive.
> john
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> I couldn't find the exact post, but I think I recall Mike Marlow saying
> that "impact drivers were over-rated".
>
> I just want to share my experience from today, maybe I can learn
> something:
>
> I have box of Trex "Trapease II" deck screws (evidently 1-S head, 2
> 3/4", plus the height of the head, long). My job was to install 40 of
> them today.
> Box of deck screws suggests not using impact driver, but driving them
> "continuously"--yes, I know what that means.
>
> I predrilled 1/8" as advised on a screw-seller's web site (and what I
> had already determined from looking at the screws). In fact, based on
> my experience below, I drilled at least 3" deep (I bought a drill bit
> that was 6" long). Also bought some "impact ready" 1-S bits, even
> though I didn't plant to use an impact driver. The bit I used held up
> remarkably-well too!
>
> Tried Bosch 18v driver: More bad results than good. I was spending more
> time using a pair of vise grips, to that I could start over due to
> "stripping" (and that is in the good case, when I really could start
> over).
>
> Tried corded DeWalt 10 Amp variable speed drill: Surely this is the
> ticket! No! No better than Bosch battery-powered driver.
>
> Tried Bosch 18v impact driver: Ah, the first screw was a thing of
> beauty. And my success rate, although not "perfect", increased to pretty
> good.
>
> I am left with a few screw heads that are not "just below the level of
> the deck" (what the box recommends), and may have to remain that way
> (unless anyone thinks these are removable).
>
>
> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S bit
> fit, I assumed it was appropriate.
>
> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill

woodchucker wrote:

>>
>> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
>> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S bit
>> fit, I assumed it was appropriate.
>>
>> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
>> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Bill
>
>
Ahh, I bet those screws are a bastard size. I bet that is the major
problem.

--
Jim in NC

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>
>>>> ...I'll surely give the screw removal
>>>> technique a try.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/trapease-ii-high-density-composite-deck-screw.html
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>
>>> Don't forget to hold that #2 with a pair of ViceGrips while you
>>> whack
>>> it with a hammer.
>>>
>>> Your fingers will thank you.
> ---------------------------------------------
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I agree with that idea. It's been a while since I hit my finger
>> with a hammer--and I'd like to keep it that way!
> -----------------------------------------------
> Forgot to add that this is a great application for a 24 Oz, drill
> hammer (Midgit sledge hammer).
>
> Short stroke, high accuracy, high momentum delivered.
>
> BTDT.
>
> Lew
I did that with a chisel and a hammer when I was about 10, and got
"shrapnel" (trying to open a "whole coconut", IIRC)--still have a scar.
Please explain how the circumstance here are (likely) somewhat
different. No, I'm not referring to the coconut.

Bill


>

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2013 8:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> As inundated as we are with advertising (especially, for those of us
>>>>> that consume a decent amount of multi-media), I thought this was an
>>>>> interesting article. Depending on how many brands of power tools you
>>>>> know, you may perhaps find it (at least a little)
>>>>> interesting too--not necessarily surprising.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/why-good-
advertising-works-even-when-you-think-it-doesnt/244252/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> In particular, I think Ro***** is trying to cram F****** down my
>>>> throat! There are others, but that's one.
>>> I tried to follow your point but I didn't. Maybe my shortcoming,
>>> but I have no idea what Ro***** is, nor do I have any idea what
>>> F****** is. Just put the the words in there Bill. It's kind of
>>> childish to spell this way.
>>>
>> You must not be on their mailing list...I used the right number of
>> asterisks.
>
> That and an apparent lack of imagination on my part. Weak minds like
> mine need most of the letter - or a picture...

I couldn't decipher the meaning either, it isn't just you.

basilisk

On 10/20/2013 9:55 AM, jloomis wrote:
> No easy way.
> I just installed 2500 sq. ft. of Trex. Of course I use the hidden trex
> deck attachments.
> Pretty funky but what the owner wanted. No screws showing.
> We did have to screw a few places where the fascia board went etc.
> I ended up pre-drilling. I even used the type of screw shown with the
> reverse thread for pulling the mushroom
> effect into the board. I had to stop screwing and remove excess debris
> from the screw body before burying it.
> So, yes, it is difficult. And if you hit a knot with one of those
> finish screws.....they will break.
> I also noticed that the spin of the screw heats up the body of the screw
> making it break easier.
> The owner helped for some time with a clutch Dewalt. His technique left
> more work to do later since the clutch would stop on a hard
> spot and not drive the screw all the way.
That's why I like an impact driver, I have a light duty 10v hitachi and
it outperforms an 18 drill/driver w/o camming out.
> So I had to go back here and there and finish driving.
> I use the Makita 18v impact driver, but you need a light touch.
> It works well, although failure here and there is to be expected.
> The square drive strip much easier than torque drive.
Meaning torx? I have had dpretty ok luck with square. Do you lube your
screws, or buy lubed screws being you sink so many?

> john
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> I couldn't find the exact post, but I think I recall Mike Marlow saying
> that "impact drivers were over-rated".
>
> I just want to share my experience from today, maybe I can learn something:
>
> I have box of Trex "Trapease II" deck screws (evidently 1-S head, 2
> 3/4", plus the height of the head, long). My job was to install 40 of
> them today.
> Box of deck screws suggests not using impact driver, but driving them
> "continuously"--yes, I know what that means.
>
> I predrilled 1/8" as advised on a screw-seller's web site (and what I
> had already determined from looking at the screws). In fact, based on
> my experience below, I drilled at least 3" deep (I bought a drill bit
> that was 6" long). Also bought some "impact ready" 1-S bits, even
> though I didn't plant to use an impact driver. The bit I used held up
> remarkably-well too!
>
> Tried Bosch 18v driver: More bad results than good. I was spending more
> time using a pair of vise grips, to that I could start over due to
> "stripping" (and that is in the good case, when I really could start over).
>
> Tried corded DeWalt 10 Amp variable speed drill: Surely this is the
> ticket! No! No better than Bosch battery-powered driver.
>
> Tried Bosch 18v impact driver: Ah, the first screw was a thing of
> beauty. And my success rate, although not "perfect", increased to pretty
> good.
>
> I am left with a few screw heads that are not "just below the level of
> the deck" (what the box recommends), and may have to remain that way
> (unless anyone thinks these are removable).
>
>
> In going to look at the name of the screws just now, I noticed that
> there were 3 drill bits in the box, labeled "R1-X". Since the 1-S bit
> fit, I assumed it was appropriate.
>
> Could someone let me in on any "tricks" to driving these screws
> successfully? Though, this job is done unless I can somehow improve it.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill


--
Jeff

On 10/16/2013 8:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/15/2013 8:33 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Please let me know if you would suggest an alternative strategy. I am
>> hoping that my fix lasts "for years and years".
>
> Simply slip/add a shim to the bottom of the joist that fits inside the
> hanger.
>
> Nothing else is necessary ...

Let me add, that any time you shim a wooden beam of any type that will
be subject to an inspection, it is generally required that the shim be
of the same type of material as the beam.

IOW, if the beam/joist is #2SYP, a PT plywood shim will not work, which
is something I see mistakenly done all the time.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 10/16/2013 9:06 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 10/15/2013 11:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Could it be that your hanger is not installed correctly at that end?
>
> Remove the beam, and reinstall the hanger. Before installing the new
> hanger, plug the old holes with a wooden dowel. Before you put the
> dowel in the hole, you could also put glue on the dowel before inserting
> it in the hole.
>
> To be a little more fancy, you could drill the hole out, then insert the
> dowel.
>
> It should have no affects on the strength, since the force on the screw
> is straight downward. There would never be any forces pulling away from
> the beam, as if the other end were lowered.
Bill you could move the hangers 1/2 inch to the side.
But I agree with you that your shim will work.

I don't think using the dowels is a good idea, you have screwed into the
face, and dowels are end grain. Endgrain is not very strong in this
situation.



--
Jeff