lacquer durability?

On Aug 13, 11:57 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Regardless of the finish used, "sharp" corners naturally >shed off and do not hold the material being applied very >well. I would make sure that the corners are softened a >bit so that they hold the finish.

Great advice, absolutely true.

But it also sounds like you may have an adhesion problem. That might
mean that your BLO was thoroghly cured (a month? more?) not just dry
to the touch.

It depends on when you put the BLO on the wood, what type it was, if
there was anything mixed with the BLO or if the BLO was thinned.

Like Leon said, rounded or even slightly eased corners are the best
>especially< in a high use cabinet. But then sitting here typing this
I just reread "little whitish
"dings" in the finish".

With lacquer, I can tell you almost without doubt that you have an
adhesion problem. The "whitish" area you are seeing is where the
lacquer has separated from the wood due to lack of bonding for
whatever reason there might be for that to happen.

Is it happening on all corners in traffic/use areas? Does it take
much to do it?

If it were me (here we go....) I would my magnifying glass out and put
a needle or an awl point in one of those little white dings and see if
I could lift it up at the edge where the finish is still bonded. With
the magnifying glass, you could see any movement, or worse, you could
see if you were making the white ding bigger.

Good luck!

Robert

Not familiar with Hydrocote but Lacquer is way more brittle than poly.
It may be an adhesion problem but more likely applied to thickly per
coat or sharp corners. This is why I think it is critical with Lacquer
to spray it in a hatch pattern of crossing directions in thin coats.
It might be just my perception but this seems to toughen it a little
bit.

I hear some folks like per-catalized Lacquer now days. I might have
heard its harder and less brittle but not sure that is true. Maybe
someone can comment.

Me, If I use lacquer any more I put it on very thin. Fast and easy and
doesn't chip, etc. I love it. Don't use it much on tables anymore
ibecause of wear problems I favor wipe on poly.


On Aug 13, 7:08 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
> Spraying the kitchen cabinets with Hydrcote and noticed little whitish
> "dings" in the finish. Corners, mostly. Doesn't seem to take a lot
> to cause this damage. Haven't recoated to know if it's easily
> remedied.
>
> I am spraying the water based lacquer over BLO, but I am allowing the
> BLO to thoroughly dry (otherwise, the lacquer just peels off).
>
> Is this normal for Hydrocote? I mean, it's great that lacquer is a
> finish that's easily repaired, but thank goodness it is apparently,
> since it's gonna need repairining 4x a day. What's going on?
>
> AM I gonna need to do a top coat with some poly (a much more durable
> finish that didn't need repariin' at all in my previous kitchen)?
>
> Any/all advice welcome and appreciated.
>
> Thanx
> Renata

Not sure my previous post made it up but i answered my own question
about pre-catalyzed lacquer. Looks like catalized lacquers are
tougher!

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp?

(Scroll down to a few short paragraphs on Lacquer)

On Aug 13, 7:08 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
> Spraying the kitchen cabinets with Hydrcote and noticed little whitish
> "dings" in the finish. Corners, mostly. Doesn't seem to take a lot
> to cause this damage. Haven't recoated to know if it's easily
> remedied.
>
> I am spraying the water based lacquer over BLO, but I am allowing the
> BLO to thoroughly dry (otherwise, the lacquer just peels off).
>
> Is this normal for Hydrocote? I mean, it's great that lacquer is a
> finish that's easily repaired, but thank goodness it is apparently,
> since it's gonna need repairining 4x a day. What's going on?
>
> AM I gonna need to do a top coat with some poly (a much more durable
> finish that didn't need repariin' at all in my previous kitchen)?
>
> Any/all advice welcome and appreciated.
>
> Thanx
> Renata

On Aug 14, 7:29 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

SNIP

> Not sure my previous post made it up but i answered my >own question about pre-catalyzed lacquer. Looks like >catalized lacquers are tougher!

SP - they are a lot harder. The Sherwyn Williams rep here keeps
trying to get me to test his stuff out, but at this point I am not
interested.

I have heard different things about the cat lacquers, some good and
some bad. I know that one of the local cabinet shops got the ratios
off a little on the post catalysed, and had hell to pay as the finish
wouldn't harden.

He also told me that they are heat sensitive (it was about 100 here
today!), had to sprayed with high pressure guns to get a really good
finish, and the smell would choke a hazmat specialist.

Like you I spray multiple thin coats to get what I want, and out of my
HVLP system. I would be worried about something goofing up my second
and then topcoat of finish if I were waiting on catalysing, or
anything else that could be weather and temp affected.

I would >>really<< like to hear from you (as would several here I
would bet) about what you think of the stuff if you decide to take the
plunge.

Robert

Yeah, after my quick read on the pre-vs-post acatalized I think I
would opt for the pre-mixed stuff to avoid a bad mix. I wonder if you
can use the normal retarders, blush and flash control and dryers withe
the cat type lacquers. With the NC lacquers I always play with the
amount of thinner depending on the temperature and often use the flash
control on hot summer days and driers in the cold of winter, although
I have sprayed on too cold of a day and paid the price.

If I do shoot any cat lac I'll write here but nothing for that in the
pipe right now.

On Aug 14, 10:26 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Aug 14, 7:29 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > Not sure my previous post made it up but i answered my >own question about pre-catalyzed lacquer. Looks like >catalized lacquers are tougher!
>
> SP - they are a lot harder. The Sherwyn Williams rep here keeps
> trying to get me to test his stuff out, but at this point I am not
> interested.
>
> I have heard different things about the cat lacquers, some good and
> some bad. I know that one of the local cabinet shops got the ratios
> off a little on the post catalysed, and had hell to pay as the finish
> wouldn't harden.
>
> He also told me that they are heat sensitive (it was about 100 here
> today!), had to sprayed with high pressure guns to get a really good
> finish, and the smell would choke a hazmat specialist.
>
> Like you I spray multiple thin coats to get what I want, and out of my
> HVLP system. I would be worried about something goofing up my second
> and then topcoat of finish if I were waiting on catalysing, or
> anything else that could be weather and temp affected.
>
> I would >>really<< like to hear from you (as would several here I
> would bet) about what you think of the stuff if you decide to take the
> plunge.
>
> Robert

On Aug 15, 1:08 am, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I wonder if you can use the normal retarders, blush >and flash control and dryers withe the cat type >lacquers. With the NC lacquers I always play with the
> amount of thinner depending on the temperature and >often use the flash control on hot summer days and >driers in the cold of winter

I got a chuckle out of that. As much of an information obssessed
addict as I am for anything I am doing, I don't even have a faint clue
if you can use all the "stuff" we use with NC. I know you can use
lacquer thinner to clean the guns >as long as< the pre cat/post cat
hasn't gone off completely.

That's not much, eh? I don't know about you, but I am just not in the
mood to learn all the little ins and outs, the little idiosyncrasies
of another finish. And I am not going back to high pressure unless my
HVLP breaks down.

> If I do shoot any cat lac I'll write here but nothing for >that in the pipe right now.

Good enough. I'll keep an eye out. I have a feeling you will be
there before I am.

Robert

On Aug 15, 9:23 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:

> >It depends on when you put the BLO on the wood, what type it was, if
> >there was anything mixed with the BLO or if the BLO was thinned.
>
> Walnut, standard BLO from one of the borgs, not thinned, not mixed,
> one coat applied and wiped after ~10 minutes usually.

I do not trust BLO. Love to use it mixed as a base for finish so I
can enhance the grain
but it is too finicky about curing. I have found straight BLO to be
like good barbecue... it is "done" when it is done. As a semi natural
product, it doesn't conform to any MSDS sheets you can find, doesn't
have any kind of standards that are imposed on a certain product (for
instance, almost all oil polys dry to the touch in two hours
regardless of brand), it doesn't behave with any characteristics that
can make it a reliable component for a lot of different kinds of
finishes. Unthinned and unmixed, you never really know when it is
cured.

When it is uncured, that makes it an unstable substrate for finish
coats. I never put BLO on unless I cut it by 50 - 60% so it is like
water. While the initial wow factor is the not the same as you are
looking at the wood under magnified and distorted light from being
under a slather coat of BLO compared to water thin stuff, in the end a
properly thinned coat looks the same after you wipe off the excess and
let it sit for a couple of weeks. If you thin the crap out of it and
put on two coats, it will cure fast as it speeds up the outgassing and
really activates the metallic driers making it go off nicely.

The first time I slathered on unthinned BLO and waited for 120 minutes
and wiped off the excess, I felt my tightwad squarehead ass tighten
up. Why did I just mop on material I had to mop off? How much stayed
on? I didn't like it at all as it was too hard to control, and it was
too hard to keep the application really even in cabinets as it would
bank up in the inside corner, stay too much in 90 edges, and would
congregate in small nicks. All recipes for problems for the finish
coating.

Years later back in the science lab (backyard shop with a mug of
coffee) I applied BLO in a thick coat on a piece of walnut. It had
some swirly grain that had raised slightly in the planer, so it was
what I was looking for. Wiped on, waited, wiped off. Waited about 4
- 5 hours and repeated with a really thin coat to even out the dry
spots. Next weekend, went out an checked it over. Looked dry.

Sanded it with 150g garnet on a block. It didn't come off cleanly but
was a little pasty. I was surprised as it was dry to the touch and in
moderate weather I expected more curing. It outright clogged 220g.
So I sanded it off and looked here and there at the board. In the
porous areas, I took a cabinet scraper (after sanding the area) and
scraped off deeper into the wood. Like a candle, where the wood was
more swirly and porous, it had wicked in more oil, and it wasn't
cured. After a week? No more BLO for me. I use about a quart a year
mixing it with other things.


> It's happening on these walnut handles, regularly, on all of them so
> far. Don't know if I'm knocking them against something (lightly), or
> not. I've had a periodic "peel back' in a couple spots on some of the
> other pieces, but that's extremely infrequent.
>
> The handles are ~16"x2"x3/4" walnut.

I would check for peel back on the other pieces in the way you checked
these handles. It might be localized, but it might not, and it may be
peeling and it may not.

> I'm thinking I'm gonna have to switch to poly for these pieces. In
> fact, I'm kinda regretting not using poly in first place. I had much
> success with it on the last kitchen project. I'd read about how
> wonderful lacquer was, and decided to try it.

IT IS! I love it, but like SP, I only use NC. I have heard a lot of
great new of high qualtiy finishing going on with water borne, but I
have found NC to be very forgiving, very responsive to
experimentation, and very reliable.

>Well, don't experiment
> on one's projects is a rule I didn't follow. It seemed to work great,
> but now this nasty rears its ugly head.

I would feel TOO bad about that. Find me someone that hasn't done
that once or twice... or three times. (Maybe four..)

> Would a single coat of poly overtop alleviate this issue? Or, maybe I
> should scrape off the lacquer and redo the finish w/something else?
> Or?

Putting a coat of finish over a badly bonded base will not be a good
thing at all.
In fact, you could really screw the pooch as it might make the
undercoating of Hydrocote blister and peel away like a paint
stripper. And worse, you don't know how well an oil poly will bond to
the water based lacquer anyway.

> The biggest issue was something friendly to indoor spraying without a
> real spray booth set up. Even though I set up a somewhat enclosed
> environment, I was still wary of blowing up the house.

A great concern. To me, the only drawback to lacquer is the fumes.

In the end, I am thinking that what happened was a couple of things.
First, the oil wasn't cured out. Unthinned, it can take a while.
Second, you put a water based finish on it. You know the old saw,
"oil and water don't mix". Until the BLO completely catalyzes and
turns to plastic resin, it still has oil in the coating layer. You
sprayed water based on it while it was still working, sealing in the
air and stopping the curing process.

You can "push" BLO with an oil based finish on top, and that is why it
is so successful in the shop as it is for most. The thinners and
solvents in an oil based finish will in some cases resolvate and
combine with the BLO, not simply adhere if it isn't fully cured. But
even if it is fully cured out, a good oil based product will stick
like glue to the BLO. For that matter, if it is fully cured so will a
good water borne lacquer. Regardless, I would never slather on BLO
and wipe off. It is thinned or nothing for me.

I am thinking that if it were me, I would scrape off the finish on the
handles, wipe them down with naptha (or VPM, same thing) really well,
and let them dry out for a couple of days or a week. If poly is a
coating you are happy with go after them with poly after that.

Anything else, post it here. Hope this helps.

Robert

>
> Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?
>
>

I've never used BLO or water-base laquer, so I cannot comment on what
might have happened. However (since you asked), I use Watco Danish
Oil, which according to Flexner, is really a wiping varnish. I use 1
light coat and wipe off any excess almost immediately. It really pops
the grain, and dries pretty quickly (overnight). I usually give it a
week, just to make sure it's fully cured. I use laquer over the
Watco, and have had zero problems. I do not own any spray equipment,
so I usually brush on several coats of Deft laquer, flatten it out
with 220 grit sandpaper, and spray the final coat from a rattle can.
To me, the beauty of laquer is that it is nearly fool-proof.

Regards,
John.

On Aug 17, 11:39 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:

> First, let me say - Thanx very much for all the advice/help!!

Absolutely no problem. I always enjoy helping someone that is out
there going after it, someone that appreciates the help. I don't see
any reason for anyone to suffer along the same trail as I have to
learn this stuff.

> First new rule for me - thin the BLO, apply 2 coats.

Stop at two. Don't be afraid to drop the hammer on the thinner. I
cut it wayyy down like I said so I can get those little resin bonds in
motion as soon as possible.

> I have stopped slathering actually, since I noticed as well, that I
> was wiping off what I had just put on. Try to get an one even, >thin coat that doesn't require much wiping afterwards (I do >wipe, but I'm not removing much excess).

Wait until you thin it down. You won't believe how little you will
wipe off. On a hot day with something like maple, you probably won't
wipe anything off! (That is a very good thing!) But I would still
wait about a week before final finishing if you have it, no matter
what the top coat choice will be.

> Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?

My very favorite formula, bar none: 1/3 shellac sanding sealer
(Zinseer off the shelf for me as I don't make my own), 1/3 BLO, and
1/3 gum spirits turpentine. Wipe on two thin coats, and you can be
finishing the next day. It evens out the grain and will take a light
sanding, and the shellac seals the surface. As you work. Put it on
with an old tee shirt you have run through the dryer by itself to get
any lint off of it you can.

Do NOT use mineral spirits in that formula, or paint thinner, but gum
spirits only. I don't know what it is, maybe the high alkaline
content in real pine/fir turps as opposed to the manufactured stuff,
but the gum ingredient makes the difference. You can still find it
still at most of the smaller hardware stores. I buy mine at a local
ACE and it has a pine branch on it. It will remind you of your
grandpa's garage when you open the can.


> >I have found NC to be very forgiving, very responsive to
> >experimentation, and very reliable.
>
> Know a good brand/ have any recommendations?

My favorite is pretty expensive and is mail order only. It is about
$45 or so a gallon with a two gallon minimum.

But I have had great success with the Old Master's brand and use it
frequently. Check this out:

http://www.oldmastrs.com/ctrOilBClears.html

Go down a few entries and you will see "Clear Wood Finish". That's
the stuff. That link also has the MSDS sheets and some appliction
guidelines. You can find this at a lot of better paint stores, and I
buy mine at a local Benjamin Moore dealer.

Then there's good old DEFT. I still use this stuff on occasion as it
is easy to apply, very forgiving and will thin/cleanup/recoat just
about as well as any finish out there. It wears really well, too.

> At this point, I'm seriously leaning to switching to something oil
> borne for the handles. They seem to be the only problematic >pieces.

If the pieces are a problem and you are worried about wear, coating
application, etc., go back to that link and look at their gel
varnish. That is a great product. I am not much for wipe on products
as they take too many applications and too much time. That's why I
bought the spray system. But on the other hand, if a product works,
why not. Their brand of gel varnish was a surprise for me and about
three coats (that will look nice) is acceptable in my timing schedule.

> They need to be scraped (which means removing the drawer >fronts, probably - <primal scream>!), cleaned as you suggest, >the corners knocked off more, possibly have the BLO touched >up, then put an oil based finish over the works.

Don't even try to put NC over water borne. One of my amigos tried it
after he messed up his water borne application and it realy made a
huge mess that showed up about 10 days later.
He sanded the rails and stiles clean (carcass construction) but gave
up and remade the doors.

It is hard to go back over something, but it will be harder for you to
look at the work you did and hate it more every day. Worse, you will
be explaining to everyone what happened, how it happened, why it
doesn't look right, and all the other crap that will take away from
the fact you made the cabinets. That in itself is something to be
proud of!

Besides... you'll never make this same mistake again, right?

> Just gotta investigate a good finish (which I'm hoping you folks > will give me additional info so I can cheat this process).
> I do have an HVLP system, so it will be suitable for spray.

There are a lot of good finishes out there and many ways of applying
them. But you won't regret spending time with the lacquer learning
curve, water borne or NC. Compare lacquer to other finishes and you
can see why it is the standard for almost all cabinet shops, on site
finishing (me!), no site refinishing (me!) and for many furniture
makers (think French polish). This is NC only:

- Cleans up easily
- Easy to repair
- Flexible mixing allows adjustments for temp and humidity
- Easy to build up a thick finish quickly
- Second, third and fourth coats can be applied the same day
- Compatible will 99% of stains and dyes
- Small imprefections are easy to buff out
- Quick dry times make the "contamination window" small;
this is really important when finishing in a small shop or garage
- Easy to get, and not expensive to use
- Requres no special equipment for application
- Gives a great finish

All good reasons to keep this finish in your back pocket for use.

Keep postin'. We'll get you squared away!

Robert

I'll have to try this out, it sounds pretty cool.

One thing I had noticed when I first read this was the "off the shelf"
Zinser shellac. Be careful, from what I can tell the normal Zinser
Bulles Eye shellac is NOT dewaxed, at least it doesn't say so anywhere
I can find. So putting other finishes over it could be a problem. I
suppose the "sanding sealer" version (as mentioned by nail is dewaxed.
Just be sure to use a dewaxed shellac.

Honestly, I have finished over a non-dewaed shellac before without a
problem (that I ever saw) but it can be a legitimate issue.


On Aug 21, 2:38 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:50:40 -0700, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Aug 17, 11:39 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?
>
> >My very favorite formula, bar none: 1/3 shellac sanding sealer
> >(Zinseer off the shelf for me as I don't make my own), 1/3 BLO, and
> >1/3 gum spirits turpentine. Wipe on two thin coats, and you can be
> >finishing the next day. It evens out the grain and will take a light
> >sanding, and the shellac seals the surface. As you work. Put it on
> >with an old tee shirt you have run through the dryer by itself to get
> >any lint off of it you can.
>
> I've heard of lost of oil / varnish blends, and of adding just a shot
> of oil to shellac for French Polishing. I'd never heard of this
> blend, so I'd thought I'd give it a shot. The "real" turpentine I
> have is Ace's house brand, the shellac is Seal Coat.
>
> This works GREAT! It gives me the color I want, while being foolproof
> to apply and fast drying. Nothing seems to leach back out of open
> pores like a natural stain or thinned BLO would.
>
> I tried it on QSWO, red oak, maple, and pine, and was so excited about
> it, I kept looking for different scraps! I'm in the process of
> finishing a bunch of trim, so tomorrow I'll see how Ultrastar goes
> over it.
>
> Thanks for a great tip!
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> **http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------

On Aug 21, 4:38 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:

> I tried it on QSWO, red oak, maple, and pine, and was >so excited about it, I kept looking for different scraps! >I'm in the process of finishing a bunch of trim, so >tomorrow I'll see how Ultrastar goes
> over it.
>
> Thanks for a great tip!

Thanks for the follow up, Barry! I always get a charge out of helping
someone else get ahead, as I have certainly had my share of help on
occasion. That formula has been with me for so long I am not sure
where I got it, but the original was different. This one is the "all
purpose" version.

Don't even try it with regular turps; total waste of time as I found
it. It remains oily. Something in the heavy alkali of the natural
turps would be my guess that breaks down the BLO a bit.

I used to make it a little thicker, and when I didn't understand what
Japan drier actually did, I used to put in some of that, too. I am
not sure why, except it seemed like a good idea at the time. Now I am
set with two medium coats.

I have found a few good swipes of that will help seal some wood
against warpage (think half lap doors) and help stabilze long trim
pieces. It works great as a wash coat under stains, glazes, varnish,
poly... you name it. Just enough shellac in this to prime and seal.

I will be interested (as in very) to see how it works under the
Cambell. I have used it under water white NC with great success. I
liked the tone it gave the wood (birch) since water white gives you NO
grain enhancement or toning. As you know, it looks like someone
wrapped teh wood in saran wrap. So I am wondering how you will like
it under your UltraStar...

Post results!

Robert

On Aug 21, 5:17 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'll have to try this out, it sounds pretty cool.

Love to hear what you think as I know you do a lot of finishing as
well.

> I suppose the "sanding sealer" version (as mentioned > by nail is dewaxed. Just be sure to use a dewaxed > shellac.

It is dewaxed, indeed.


> Honestly, I have finished over a non-dewaed shellac > before without a problem (that I ever saw) but it can be > a legitimate issue.

I agree. But like you, I haven't actually had a problem with the
straight BullsEye finish (as opposed to the sanding sealer) stuff
holding onto a final coating. It may be because the process that
stuff so heavily when it is manufactured that the dewaxing is not an
issue like it is when you make it from flakes.

Robert

On Aug 23, 6:54 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:

> Fan-freakin'-tastic!
>
> After only 1-1/2 days of dry time with the 1/3's Seal >Coat / "real" Turpentine / BLO blend, two coats of water >based Ultrastar Dull lacquer took PERFECTLY! It looks >EXACTLY like my BLO rubs with a Seal
> Coat barrier, and better than oil based natural stains, >with far less waiting.
>
> I did a OSWQ, maple, and red oak scrap. All seem to >show no ill effects with the fast drying secret blend >under Ultrastar.
>
> No more natural stain or waiting a week or so for BLO to >dry for me!
>
> I'll post pics on the binary sister if requested.

Barry - as you know I have an allergy (it's getting better!) to water
borne products. I would love to see pics of the final product under
the Ultrastar as by almost all accounts that or Oxford is the water
borne of choice.

I am really pleased for you that it worked so well and glad it did!
And since you know time is not only money but convenience, applying
that stuff with a rag without having to set up a spray area is almost
a gift. I will be interested to see where you go with that stuff
under different stains and glazes.

We may actually be the only guys left on this thread, so if it would
be easier, just zip 'em up, and send them to me directly.

Address: [email protected]

Just take out "thetrash" and "thegarbage".

Thanks for the follow up!

Robert

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:22:17 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> We may actually be the only guys left on this thread, so if it would
> be easier, just zip 'em up, and send them to me directly.

No! I'm watching this with great interest. Put 'em on a.b.p.w, PLEASE!

> Thanks for the follow up!

Ditto .. ditto .. ditto .......

And thanks to Robert for sharing his "secret."

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

[email protected] wrote:

> We may actually be the only guys left on this thread, so if it would
> be easier, just zip 'em up, and send them to me directly.
>
Slow down, there, cowboy ... you got lurkers!

Seriously ... I (and apparently others) have been keeping a keen eye on
this thread. Winter is just around the corner and I have allergies to
using solvent-based finishes near pilot lights.

Bill


--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000768-1, 08/24/2007
Tested on: 8/24/2007 1:44:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Barry - as you know I have an allergy (it's getting better!) to water
> borne products. I would love to see pics of the final product under
> the Ultrastar as by almost all accounts that or Oxford is the water
> borne of choice.

I'll get some up on the web this weekend. I've shown the QSWO sample to
some "civilians", and the results have all been "WOW!"

> I am really pleased for you that it worked so well and glad it did!

Me too! <G>

> And since you know time is not only money but convenience, applying
> that stuff with a rag without having to set up a spray area is almost
> a gift. I will be interested to see where you go with that stuff
> under different stains and glazes.

Not only does it dry very fast and not leach back out, but the extra
Seal Coat step is eliminated.

I'm already thinking of experimenting with Trans-Tint, Solar Lux, or
Mixol in it. This is one of the most useful tips I've gotten in ages.

"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Spraying the kitchen cabinets with Hydrcote and noticed little whitish
> "dings" in the finish. Corners, mostly. Doesn't seem to take a lot
> to cause this damage. Haven't recoated to know if it's easily
> remedied.
>
> I am spraying the water based lacquer over BLO, but I am allowing the
> BLO to thoroughly dry (otherwise, the lacquer just peels off).
>
> Is this normal for Hydrocote? I mean, it's great that lacquer is a
> finish that's easily repaired, but thank goodness it is apparently,
> since it's gonna need repairining 4x a day. What's going on?
>
> AM I gonna need to do a top coat with some poly (a much more durable
> finish that didn't need repariin' at all in my previous kitchen)?
>
> Any/all advice welcome and appreciated.
>
> Thanx
> Renata

Regardless of the finish used, "sharp" corners naturally shed off and do not
hold the material being applied very well. I would make sure that the
corners are softened a bit so that they hold the finish.

Renata <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip of a long and useful tale...>

> Just gotta investigate a good finish (which I'm hoping you folks will
> give me additional info so I can cheat this process).

Waterlox Original. Sealer/Finish, maybe three coats, or follwoed up by
their varnish. Wipe it on with an old tshirt or a good paper towel.

For the handles, it's dead solid easy. That's why I like it.

It's on the blanket chest that became a coffee table. Red oak, 4 or 5
coats of this, and it doesn't show where the grandkids beat on it with
their toys and such. It would be great on walnut handles.

I use for all sorts of walnut stuff, most of which is of modest scale and
gets looked at pretty closely.

Woodcraft sells it here, but so do other places. Just not everywhere.

We're rooting for you to get that kitchen complete, photographed, and up on
the web!

Patriarch

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Aug 23, 6:54 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Fan-freakin'-tastic!
>>
>> After only 1-1/2 days of dry time with the 1/3's Seal >Coat / "real"
>> Turpentine / BLO blend, two coats of water >based Ultrastar Dull
>> lacquer took PERFECTLY! It looks >EXACTLY like my BLO rubs with a
>> Seal Coat barrier, and better than oil based natural stains, >with
>> far less waiting.
>>
>> I did a OSWQ, maple, and red oak scrap. All seem to >show no ill
>> effects with the fast drying secret blend >under Ultrastar.
>>
>> No more natural stain or waiting a week or so for BLO to >dry for me!
>>
>> I'll post pics on the binary sister if requested.
>
> Barry - as you know I have an allergy (it's getting better!) to water
> borne products. I would love to see pics of the final product under
> the Ultrastar as by almost all accounts that or Oxford is the water
> borne of choice.
>
> I am really pleased for you that it worked so well and glad it did!
> And since you know time is not only money but convenience, applying
> that stuff with a rag without having to set up a spray area is almost
> a gift. I will be interested to see where you go with that stuff
> under different stains and glazes.
>
> We may actually be the only guys left on this thread, so if it would
> be easier, just zip 'em up, and send them to me directly.
>
> Address: [email protected]
>
> Just take out "thetrash" and "thegarbage".
>
> Thanks for the follow up!
>
> Robert
>
>

Hey! Some of us are still interested! It's not like a political thread
or anything.

Patriarch

First, let me say - Thanx very much for all the advice/help!!


On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:01:31 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Aug 15, 9:23 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> >It depends on when you put the BLO on the wood, what type it was, if
>> >there was anything mixed with the BLO or if the BLO was thinned.
>>
>> Walnut, standard BLO from one of the borgs, not thinned, not mixed,
>> one coat applied and wiped after ~10 minutes usually.
>
>I do not trust BLO. Love to use it mixed as a base for finish so I
>can enhance the grain
>but it is too finicky about curing. I have found straight BLO to be
>like good barbecue... it is "done" when it is done. As a semi natural
>product, it doesn't conform to any MSDS sheets you can find, doesn't
>have any kind of standards that are imposed on a certain product (for
>instance, almost all oil polys dry to the touch in two hours
>regardless of brand), it doesn't behave with any characteristics that
>can make it a reliable component for a lot of different kinds of
>finishes. Unthinned and unmixed, you never really know when it is
>cured.
>

First new rule for me - thin the BLO, apply 2 coats.


>When it is uncured, that makes it an unstable substrate for finish
>coats. I never put BLO on unless I cut it by 50 - 60% so it is like
>water. While the initial wow factor is the not the same as you are
>looking at the wood under magnified and distorted light from being
>under a slather coat of BLO compared to water thin stuff, in the end a
>properly thinned coat looks the same after you wipe off the excess and
>let it sit for a couple of weeks. If you thin the crap out of it and
>put on two coats, it will cure fast as it speeds up the outgassing and
>really activates the metallic driers making it go off nicely.
>
>The first time I slathered on unthinned BLO and waited for 120 minutes
>and wiped off the excess, I felt my tightwad squarehead ass tighten
>up. Why did I just mop on material I had to mop off? How much stayed
>on? I didn't like it at all as it was too hard to control, and it was
>too hard to keep the application really even in cabinets as it would
>bank up in the inside corner, stay too much in 90 edges, and would
>congregate in small nicks. All recipes for problems for the finish
>coating.

I have stopped slathering actually, since I noticed as well, that I
was wiping off what I had just put on. Try to get an one even, thin
coat that doesn't require much wiping afterwards (I do wipe, but I'm
not removing much excess). However, I do like your idea of thinning
it, since it will dry much, much faster.

>
>Years later back in the science lab (backyard shop with a mug of
>coffee) I applied BLO in a thick coat on a piece of walnut. It had
>some swirly grain that had raised slightly in the planer, so it was
>what I was looking for. Wiped on, waited, wiped off. Waited about 4
>- 5 hours and repeated with a really thin coat to even out the dry
>spots. Next weekend, went out an checked it over. Looked dry.
>
>Sanded it with 150g garnet on a block. It didn't come off cleanly but
>was a little pasty. I was surprised as it was dry to the touch and in
>moderate weather I expected more curing. It outright clogged 220g.
>So I sanded it off and looked here and there at the board. In the
>porous areas, I took a cabinet scraper (after sanding the area) and
>scraped off deeper into the wood. Like a candle, where the wood was
>more swirly and porous, it had wicked in more oil, and it wasn't
>cured. After a week? No more BLO for me. I use about a quart a year
>mixing it with other things.

Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?

>
>
>> It's happening on these walnut handles, regularly, on all of them so
>> far. Don't know if I'm knocking them against something (lightly), or
>> not. I've had a periodic "peel back' in a couple spots on some of the
>> other pieces, but that's extremely infrequent.
>>
>> The handles are ~16"x2"x3/4" walnut.
>
>I would check for peel back on the other pieces in the way you checked
>these handles. It might be localized, but it might not, and it may be
>peeling and it may not.
>
>> I'm thinking I'm gonna have to switch to poly for these pieces. In
>> fact, I'm kinda regretting not using poly in first place. I had much
>> success with it on the last kitchen project. I'd read about how
>> wonderful lacquer was, and decided to try it.
>
>IT IS! I love it, but like SP, I only use NC. I have heard a lot of
>great new of high qualtiy finishing going on with water borne, but I
>have found NC to be very forgiving, very responsive to
>experimentation, and very reliable.

Know a good brand/ have any recommendations?


>
>>Well, don't experiment
>> on one's projects is a rule I didn't follow. It seemed to work great,
>> but now this nasty rears its ugly head.
>
>I would feel TOO bad about that. Find me someone that hasn't done
>that once or twice... or three times. (Maybe four..)
>
>> Would a single coat of poly overtop alleviate this issue? Or, maybe I
>> should scrape off the lacquer and redo the finish w/something else?
>> Or?
>
>Putting a coat of finish over a badly bonded base will not be a good
>thing at all.
>In fact, you could really screw the pooch as it might make the
>undercoating of Hydrocote blister and peel away like a paint
>stripper. And worse, you don't know how well an oil poly will bond to
>the water based lacquer anyway.
>
>> The biggest issue was something friendly to indoor spraying without a
>> real spray booth set up. Even though I set up a somewhat enclosed
>> environment, I was still wary of blowing up the house.
>
>A great concern. To me, the only drawback to lacquer is the fumes.
>
>In the end, I am thinking that what happened was a couple of things.
>First, the oil wasn't cured out. Unthinned, it can take a while.
>Second, you put a water based finish on it. You know the old saw,
>"oil and water don't mix". Until the BLO completely catalyzes and
>turns to plastic resin, it still has oil in the coating layer. You
>sprayed water based on it while it was still working, sealing in the
>air and stopping the curing process.
>
>You can "push" BLO with an oil based finish on top, and that is why it
>is so successful in the shop as it is for most. The thinners and
>solvents in an oil based finish will in some cases resolvate and
>combine with the BLO, not simply adhere if it isn't fully cured. But
>even if it is fully cured out, a good oil based product will stick
>like glue to the BLO. For that matter, if it is fully cured so will a
>good water borne lacquer. Regardless, I would never slather on BLO
>and wipe off. It is thinned or nothing for me.
>
>I am thinking that if it were me, I would scrape off the finish on the
>handles, wipe them down with naptha (or VPM, same thing) really well,
>and let them dry out for a couple of days or a week. If poly is a
>coating you are happy with go after them with poly after that.

At this point, I'm seriously leaning to switching to something oil
borne for the handles. They seem to be the only problematic pieces.
They need to be scraped (which means removing the drawer fronts,
probably - <primal scream>!), cleaned as you suggest, the corners
knocked off more, possibly have the BLO touched up, then put an oil
based finish over the works.

Just gotta investigate a good finish (which I'm hoping you folks will
give me additional info so I can cheat this process).
I do have an HVLP system, so it will be suitable for spray.

>
>Anything else, post it here. Hope this helps.

Thank You very, very much!

Renata


>
>Robert

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:50:40 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Aug 17, 11:39 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> First, let me say - Thanx very much for all the advice/help!!
>
>Absolutely no problem. I always enjoy helping someone that is out
>there going after it, someone that appreciates the help. I don't see
>any reason for anyone to suffer along the same trail as I have to
>learn this stuff.

Been away for last few days, so haven't done much, but 'puttering' at
the moment, so decided to check back here.
>
>> First new rule for me - thin the BLO, apply 2 coats.
>
>Stop at two. Don't be afraid to drop the hammer on the thinner. I
>cut it wayyy down like I said so I can get those little resin bonds in
>motion as soon as possible.
>
>> I have stopped slathering actually, since I noticed as well, that I
>> was wiping off what I had just put on. Try to get an one even, >thin coat that doesn't require much wiping afterwards (I do >wipe, but I'm not removing much excess).
>
>Wait until you thin it down. You won't believe how little you will
>wipe off. On a hot day with something like maple, you probably won't
>wipe anything off! (That is a very good thing!) But I would still
>wait about a week before final finishing if you have it, no matter
>what the top coat choice will be.
>
>> Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?
>
>My very favorite formula, bar none: 1/3 shellac sanding sealer
>(Zinseer off the shelf for me as I don't make my own), 1/3 BLO, and
>1/3 gum spirits turpentine. Wipe on two thin coats, and you can be
>finishing the next day. It evens out the grain and will take a light
>sanding, and the shellac seals the surface. As you work. Put it on
>with an old tee shirt you have run through the dryer by itself to get
>any lint off of it you can.
>
>Do NOT use mineral spirits in that formula, or paint thinner, but gum
>spirits only. I don't know what it is, maybe the high alkaline
>content in real pine/fir turps as opposed to the manufactured stuff,
>but the gum ingredient makes the difference. You can still find it
>still at most of the smaller hardware stores. I buy mine at a local
>ACE and it has a pine branch on it. It will remind you of your
>grandpa's garage when you open the can.

Was gonna research this - but then you went and read my mind. Thanx
for stressing gum only as sometimes I get impatient and work w/what I
have.
>
>
>> >I have found NC to be very forgiving, very responsive to
>> >experimentation, and very reliable.
>>
>> Know a good brand/ have any recommendations?
>
>My favorite is pretty expensive and is mail order only. It is about
>$45 or so a gallon with a two gallon minimum.
>
What is it?
I had to order the Hydrcote mail order and was planning on perhaps
trying the magnaseal from them. I was highly pleased with their
service and I had the stuff in a few days.
Since I only probably need about 2 more gallons, that' probably not an
issue.
So, please share...


>But I have had great success with the Old Master's brand and use it
>frequently. Check this out:
>
>http://www.oldmastrs.com/ctrOilBClears.html
>
>Go down a few entries and you will see "Clear Wood Finish". That's
>the stuff. That link also has the MSDS sheets and some appliction
>guidelines. You can find this at a lot of better paint stores, and I
>buy mine at a local Benjamin Moore dealer.
>
>Then there's good old DEFT. I still use this stuff on occasion as it
>is easy to apply, very forgiving and will thin/cleanup/recoat just
>about as well as any finish out there. It wears really well, too.
>
I've used this in brush on form in days gone by. Recall it had a
funky smell. But, I did like the end result.

>> At this point, I'm seriously leaning to switching to something oil
>> borne for the handles. They seem to be the only problematic >pieces.
>
>If the pieces are a problem and you are worried about wear, coating
>application, etc., go back to that link and look at their gel
>varnish. That is a great product. I am not much for wipe on products
>as they take too many applications and too much time. That's why I
>bought the spray system. But on the other hand, if a product works,
>why not. Their brand of gel varnish was a surprise for me and about
>three coats (that will look nice) is acceptable in my timing schedule.

These handles are all a problem. Just looked at 2 more that I though
had had plenty of time to dry, and the finish is "blistering" on the
face of the walnut.

Since the handles aren't a big deal, wipe on wouldn't kill me (time is
much more important). But, I'm thinking of stripping the doors I've
already done and refinishing them and the others (that aren't yet
sprayed) withi somehting other than the Hydrocote lacquer. So, one
product fo everything is better.
>
>> They need to be scraped (which means removing the drawer >fronts, probably - <primal scream>!), cleaned as you suggest, >the corners knocked off more, possibly have the BLO touched >up, then put an oil based finish over the works.
>
>Don't even try to put NC over water borne. One of my amigos tried it
>after he messed up his water borne application and it realy made a
>huge mess that showed up about 10 days later.
>He sanded the rails and stiles clean (carcass construction) but gave
>up and remade the doors.

It is a GOOD thing you said this. Because, that's exactly what I was
thinking about, figuring the waterborne had plenty of time to dry (on
the doors, not the handles - them I would've stripped).

>
>It is hard to go back over something, but it will be harder for you to
>look at the work you did and hate it more every day. Worse, you will
>be explaining to everyone what happened, how it happened, why it
>doesn't look right, and all the other crap that will take away from
>the fact you made the cabinets. That in itself is something to be
>proud of!

Yup, you got me pegged.
My neighbors just told me to stop being such a perfectionsist. Hard
to change at this point.

>
>Besides... you'll never make this same mistake again, right?

Oh yes indeed, never again. There's so many new ones (mistakes) just
waiting to be made.

>
>> Just gotta investigate a good finish (which I'm hoping you folks > will give me additional info so I can cheat this process).
>> I do have an HVLP system, so it will be suitable for spray.
>
>There are a lot of good finishes out there and many ways of applying
>them. But you won't regret spending time with the lacquer learning
>curve, water borne or NC. Compare lacquer to other finishes and you
>can see why it is the standard for almost all cabinet shops, on site
>finishing (me!), no site refinishing (me!) and for many furniture
>makers (think French polish). This is NC only:
>
>- Cleans up easily
>- Easy to repair
>- Flexible mixing allows adjustments for temp and humidity
>- Easy to build up a thick finish quickly
>- Second, third and fourth coats can be applied the same day
>- Compatible will 99% of stains and dyes
>- Small imprefections are easy to buff out
>- Quick dry times make the "contamination window" small;
> this is really important when finishing in a small shop or garage
>- Easy to get, and not expensive to use
>- Requres no special equipment for application
>- Gives a great finish

All excellent reasons!

>
>All good reasons to keep this finish in your back pocket for use.
>
>Keep postin'. We'll get you squared away!
>
>Robert

Thanx.
My plan is to switch to something oil based, and redo the handles.
Probably the doors as well. I can now spray in a better ventilated
area so water borne isn't an issue. I like your lacquer suggestion,
just gonna figure out which one to use - too many choices!

Renata

>
>
>
>

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:11:24 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Aug 13, 11:57 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Regardless of the finish used, "sharp" corners naturally >shed off and do not hold the material being applied very >well. I would make sure that the corners are softened a >bit so that they hold the finish.
>
>Great advice, absolutely true.
>
>But it also sounds like you may have an adhesion problem. That might
>mean that your BLO was thoroghly cured (a month? more?) not just dry
>to the touch.

Might be indeed. I'm starting to worry. Dried for about a week. Not
having problems with any of the panels (cabinet sides, etc.), but
these walnut handles I'm making are problematic.
>
>It depends on when you put the BLO on the wood, what type it was, if
>there was anything mixed with the BLO or if the BLO was thinned.

Walnut, standard BLO from one of the borgs, not thinned, not mixed,
one coat applied and wiped after ~10 minutes usually.

>
>Like Leon said, rounded or even slightly eased corners are the best
>>especially< in a high use cabinet. But then sitting here typing this
>I just reread "little whitish
>"dings" in the finish".
>
>With lacquer, I can tell you almost without doubt that you have an
>adhesion problem. The "whitish" area you are seeing is where the
>lacquer has separated from the wood due to lack of bonding for
>whatever reason there might be for that to happen.
>
>Is it happening on all corners in traffic/use areas? Does it take
>much to do it?

It's happening on these walnut handles, regularly, on all of them so
far. Don't know if I'm knocking them against something (lightly), or
not. I've had a periodic "peel back' in a couple spots on some of the
other pieces, but that's extremely infrequent.

The handles are ~16"x2"x3/4" walnut.

I'm thinking I'm gonna have to switch to poly for these pieces. In
fact, I'm kinda regretting not using poly in first place. I had much
success with it on the last kitchen project. I'd read about how
wonderful lacquer was, and decided to try it. Well, don't experiment
on one's projects is a rule I didn't follow. It seemed to work great,
but now this nasty rears its ugly head.

Would a single coat of poly overtop alleviate this issue? Or, maybe I
should scrape off the lacquer and redo the finish w/something else?
Or?

The biggest issue was something friendly to indoor spraying without a
real spray booth set up. Even though I set up a somewhat enclosed
environment, I was still wary of blowing up the house.
>
>If it were me (here we go....) I would my magnifying glass out and put
>a needle or an awl point in one of those little white dings and see if
>I could lift it up at the edge where the finish is still bonded. With
>the magnifying glass, you could see any movement, or worse, you could
>see if you were making the white ding bigger.
>
They are indeed little bubbles, so it does appear to be an adhesion
problem, compounded by the sharp corner.


>Good luck!

Thanx.
Renata

>
>Robert
>

"Patriarch" wrote in message

> Hey! Some of us are still interested! It's not like a political thread
> or anything.

Me too! Hell, I'm writing a book strictly from Robert's posts on the
subject. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/08/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:50:40 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Aug 17, 11:39 am, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>> Yes, but what else pops the grain as nicely?
>
>My very favorite formula, bar none: 1/3 shellac sanding sealer
>(Zinseer off the shelf for me as I don't make my own), 1/3 BLO, and
>1/3 gum spirits turpentine. Wipe on two thin coats, and you can be
>finishing the next day. It evens out the grain and will take a light
>sanding, and the shellac seals the surface. As you work. Put it on
>with an old tee shirt you have run through the dryer by itself to get
>any lint off of it you can.


I've heard of lost of oil / varnish blends, and of adding just a shot
of oil to shellac for French Polishing. I'd never heard of this
blend, so I'd thought I'd give it a shot. The "real" turpentine I
have is Ace's house brand, the shellac is Seal Coat.

This works GREAT! It gives me the color I want, while being foolproof
to apply and fast drying. Nothing seems to leach back out of open
pores like a natural stain or thinned BLO would.

I tried it on QSWO, red oak, maple, and pine, and was so excited about
it, I kept looking for different scraps! I'm in the process of
finishing a bunch of trim, so tomorrow I'll see how Ultrastar goes
over it.

Thanks for a great tip!

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:27:37 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I will be interested (as in very) to see how it works under the
>Cambell. I have used it under water white NC with great success. I
>liked the tone it gave the wood (birch) since water white gives you NO
>grain enhancement or toning. As you know, it looks like someone
>wrapped teh wood in saran wrap. So I am wondering how you will like
>it under your UltraStar...
>
>Post results!
>
>Robert


Fan-freakin'-tastic!

After only 1-1/2 days of dry time with the 1/3's Seal Coat / "real"
Turpentine / BLO blend, two coats of water based Ultrastar Dull
lacquer took PERFECTLY! It looks EXACTLY like my BLO rubs with a Seal
Coat barrier, and better than oil based natural stains, with far less
waiting.

I did a OSWQ, maple, and red oak scrap. All seem to show no ill
effects with the fast drying secret blend under Ultrastar.

No more natural stain or waiting a week or so for BLO to dry for me!

I'll post pics on the binary sister if requested.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------