All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
employees that seem to have such a good contract.
Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
there were no errors.
Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
Lew
You have to admit that some of these excutive pay packages are in another
universe, having nothing to do with us mere mortals. I am certain that they
can find competent people who will work for more reasonable pay. Ithe big
issue for most folks is paying for this out of our pockets. If the did their
jobs well, we wouldn't have to. So all the big money goes to pay for
incompetence.
Reminds me of a comment about the CEO of Boing Aircraft Company. It went
something like this, "He gets over 14 million a year and he still has not
built and delivered the much touted dreamliner aircraft. Think how much he
will get paid when he actually delivers the dreamliner."
On Mar 17, 10:36=C2=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > Well put, and it is not often we get to read properly executed
> > linguistic endeavours such as this. Seriously.
>
> > Public service and running a business are not compatible... unless
> > you're Haliburton. <G>
>
> > ONE reason Mitt Romney should never be allowed near the White House.
> > (That is just one reason. Any man who makes his woman dress up in
> > funny PJ's to have sex with her is a sick person. Unless it is a clown
> > suit... of course.)
>
> It's possible for one mindset to learn the methodologies of another. It
> gives them an understanding and that's usually a good thing. Some who spe=
nd
> ALL their lives in government have no concept (i.e., Clinton, Obama, Nixo=
n,
> Kennedy, Johnson).
>
> Bush I came from a political family (his father was a U.S. Senator) but
> after the war, he came to Texas with a new bride and only a few million i=
n
> his jeans, but made good (ever heard of Pennzoil?) in business before
> entering politics. Bush II also came from a political family, but did oka=
y
> in private business before becoming governor.
>
> Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon were always politicians. Carter had a stint i=
n
> the Navy. Excepting Bush I & II, you have to go back to Truman to find
> anybody with a business background.
>
> In the case of Romney, he was successful in business, came from a politic=
al
> family, and was, himself a governor. Many people who leave government go
> into private business, often on the boards of major corporations (i.e.,
> Gerald Ford).
>
>
>
> > Government is there to manage and look after our interests, not to
> > screw us out of our money, right?
>
> No. The purpose of government is to protect, perpetuate, and grow itself.=
If
> you're interested, here's a short list of guardian mindset mandates:
>
> Shun trading
> Exert prowess
> Be obedient and disciplined
> Adhere to tradition
> Respect hierarchy
> Be loyal
> Take vengeance
> Deceive for the sake of the task
> Make rich use of leisure
> Be ostentatious
> Dispense largess
> Be exclusive
> Show fortitude
> Be fatalistic
> Treasure honor
>
> The commercial mindset is characterized by
>
> Shun force
> Come to voluntary agreements
> Be honest
> Collaborate easily with strangers and aliens
> Compete
> Respect contracts
> Use initiative and enterprise
> Be open to inventiveness and novelty
> Be efficient
> Promote comfort and convenience
> Dissent for the sake of the task
> Invest for productive purposes
> Be industrious
> Be thrifty
> Be optimistic
Encourage trading
Exert prowess
Be obedient and disciplined
Adhere to tradition
Respect hierarchy
Be loyal
Do NOT take vengeance
Deceive for the sake of the task NEVER
Make rich use of leisure
Be ostentatious NOT
Dispense largess NOT
Be exclusive
Show fortitude
Be fatalistic NO
Treasure honor
The commercial mindset is characterized by
Shun force . USE force. You got it. make it work...in the right place
Come to voluntary agreements
Be honest
Collaborate easily with strangers and aliens
Compete =E2=80=A8Respect contracts
Use initiative and enterprise
Be open to inventiveness and novelty
Be efficient
Promote comfort and convenience
Dissent for the sake of the task. NO! Dissent when appropriate.
Invest for productive purposes
Be industrious
Be thrifty
Be optimistic
Hell yes to all of the above, including the ones I corrected <G>
The last three are ultra huge!
On Mar 20, 10:01=A0am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> =A0Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
> >> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay =
on
> >> while they dismantled their divisions. =A0In general, when one is told=
that
> >> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becom=
es
> >> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secon=
dary
> >> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is goin=
g to
> >> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the compa=
ny
> >> for which is position is being eliminated. =A0These retention bonuses =
were
> >> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
> >> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
> >> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
>
> > What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that th=
ose
> > bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out mone=
y.
>
> > Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down on=
ce
> > again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. =A0Like you =
would
> > expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, a=
nd
> > that really scares me.
> > Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts tha=
t
> > would make this story less than sensational.
>
> > IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was cal=
ling
> > the money, =A0bonuses.
>
> Congress didn't "screw up" - what you see is intentional. =A0Frank, Dodd,
> Pelosi, Reid, and even Obama need to stir up the AIG lynch mob to deflect
> attention from their own gross incompetence and responsibility for this
> whole mess. =A0This entire exercise is one in which the congress critters
> are performing an act of misdirection hoping that the sheeple will not
> notice how criminally negligent their politicians are. =A0It will probabl=
y
> work ...
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-- -
> Tim Daneliuk =A0 =A0 [email protected]
> PGP Key: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
"Han" wrote:
> Having had opportunity to travel 747s in economy and gettting to
> disembark through the rear doors was a revelation. It goes SOOO
> much
> faster than when everyone has to go through that 1 small door like
> with a
> 737, 757, or other Boeing except the 747.
Looks like you need to keep those memories fresh in your mind.
Was announced this afternoon that 380 flights in and out of the USA
are being reduced with replacement servive being provided by smaller
planes.
LAX, the largest POE on the west coast will certainly feel the effects
of this reduction.
Only Quantas is still flying the 380 in/out of LAX with 5 round trip
flights per week to Melbourne.
$10Kish for a coach seat on the Melbourne trip may have something to
do with it.
Lew
Swingman wrote:
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
>>> employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>>>
>>> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>>>
>>> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
>>> he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
>>> sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
>>> want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
>>> there were no errors.
>>>
>>> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>>>
>>> Lew
>> Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
>> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay on
>> while they dismantled their divisions. In general, when one is told that
>> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becomes
>> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secondary
>> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is going to
>> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the company
>> for which is position is being eliminated. These retention bonuses were
>> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
>> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
>> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
>>
>> 2) The people being paid the bonuses appear NOT to be the people
>> responsible
>> for running the company into the ground -- they were brought in to clean
>> up
>> the mess:
>> <http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/03/some-reality-for-the-reality-based.html>
>>
>> 3) None of this would be an issue if the country had applied good
>> old-fashioned capitalism and a) never tried to do the social engineering
>> through Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the CRA with the idea of "affordable
>> housing" and government backed mortgages, and b) had let failing companies
>> fail
>
> Barney, Nancy, Harry, Chris and ALL your other political heroes are
> strumming the stupidity/ignorance of the electorate like a 12 string guitar
> ... too bad the sound you hear is the death knell of freedom as we've known
> it.
>
Yup, but it won't be immediate. The younger voters that salivated over
the Obamessiah are the ones who are going to absorb most of the pain.
In fact, the combination of the natural economic recovery coupled with
the phony liquidity being pumped into the system by these idiots may
actually cause a huge market bounce in about 2 years. The sheeple will
see this as proof that Their Savior has done his job and vigorously
reelect him, all the while neglecting the incredible damage this
administration and the revolting congress are doing to liberty,
monetary policy, productivity, and durable economic stability.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
On Mar 17, 10:29=A0am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> > All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
> > employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>
> > Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>
> > Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
> > he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
> > sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
> > want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
> > there were no errors.
>
> > Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>
> The complaint about bonuses is merely an attempt to apply government
> methodology to the commercial environment. Governments don't (or shouldn'=
t)
> award incentives for jobs well done - governments cannot survive if they
> foster initative and efficiency because each implies some form of dissent
> from the received wisdom. Members of the guardian mindset must conform fo=
r
> the sake of the task - there can be no reward for straying off the
> reservation. This is the way members of the ruling sect must think.
>
> Conversely, the commercial mindset works best when members dissent for th=
e
> sake of the task. Bonuses are merely a way of encouraging such
> outside-the-box thoughts and actions.
>
> Since time immemorial, governments have experimented with the encourageme=
nt
> of initiative. Such experiments almost always fail, sometimes to the
> destruction of the entire country. As such, there is a strong reluctance =
on
> the part of government to put a toe in that water. In fact, as we see her=
e,
> there is a strong incentive to impose that principle outside the usual
> realm.
>
> Business, on the other hand, has had its most wrenching problems when
> employees are deprived of the opportunity to experiment and innovate.
>
> Bottom line: Governments suffer - and even collapse entirely - when they
> attempt commercial solutions to guardian problems. Likewise, businesses
> suffer when they attempt to operate like a government.*
>
> In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will soon
> say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a less
> governmental-minded enterprise. Their places will be filled by bureacrats
> who know which rubber-stamp to use.
>
> Although not germane to this topic, do not EVER vote for a candidate who
> says his experience in running a business will serve the public well and
> especially if he says he wants to apply business techniques to your city'=
s
> government!
>
> ----------
> * There is at least one exception to this rule: The Mafia. The Mafia
> exhibits parts of both rationales.
Well put, and it is not often we get to read properly executed
linguistic endeavours such as this. Seriously.
Public service and running a business are not compatible... unless
you're Haliburton. <G>
ONE reason Mitt Romney should never be allowed near the White House.
(That is just one reason. Any man who makes his woman dress up in
funny PJ's to have sex with her is a sick person. Unless it is a clown
suit... of course.)
Government is there to manage and look after our interests, not to
screw us out of our money, right?
Let's clarify something first.
One of Government functions is NOT to MAKE money,
but rather to SPEND money wisely. Another of the
functions of Government is to do things "Business/
The Private Sector" can't, or won't.
Would the Transcontinental Rail Road, or the Tennessee
Valley Authority (TVA), or The Interstate Highway System,
or NASA, or The Panama Canal, or The Internet - and all the
the economic growth they fostered - have happened IF
Government hadn't financed them?
Let's just take NASA. Because the cost per pound to put
something in orbit was so high - NASA paid for the birth
of the semi-conductor industry. Without that stimulus,
think of just about anything in your home, office and
car - that isn't directly or indirectly the result of the
semi-conductor industry - and it's spinoffs. Without NASA,
think of all the value satellites have added to the world's
economy. And when you go to a hospital consider what
wouldn't be there if NASA didn't exist.
Now give me any private sector investment that had
a comperable Return On Investment, or impact of
the citizens of this country- as well as other countries.
Then give me examples of Government actions which
plunged the country into economic depression every
couple of generations, give or take a decade.
Wall Street has cost citizens far more money than
Government has "wasted". And if you use "Welfare
Fraud" as a prime example of Government Waste,
do a little research on Corporate Welfare.
And BTW - why is The Private Sector coming to
the Tax Payer, demanding money - because they're
"Too Big To Fail"?
On Mar 17, 12:18=A0pm, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*[email protected]> wrote:
> You have to admit that some of these excutive pay packages are in another
> universe, having nothing to do with us mere mortals. =A0I am certain that=
they
> can find competent people who will work for more reasonable pay. Ithe big
> issue for most folks is paying for this out of our pockets. If the did th=
eir
> jobs well, we wouldn't have to. So all the big money goes to pay for
> incompetence.
>
> Reminds me of a comment about the CEO of Boing Aircraft Company. It went
> something like this, "He gets over 14 million a year and he still has not
> built and delivered the much touted dreamliner aircraft. =A0Think how muc=
h he
> will get paid when he actually delivers the dreamliner."
Well... he did. ....and it is some pretty.
On Mar 17, 10:29=A0am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will soon
> say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a less
> governmental-minded enterprise. Their places will be filled by bureacrats
> who know which rubber-stamp to use.
Less governmental...like working at an ACE hardware store?
I wouldn't want to go job hunting in this economic climate.
Having AIG on a resume would probably be the quickest way to get the
application shit-canned.
R
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
> employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>
> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>
> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
> he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
> sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
> want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
> there were no errors.
>
> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>
The complaint about bonuses is merely an attempt to apply government
methodology to the commercial environment. Governments don't (or shouldn't)
award incentives for jobs well done - governments cannot survive if they
foster initative and efficiency because each implies some form of dissent
from the received wisdom. Members of the guardian mindset must conform for
the sake of the task - there can be no reward for straying off the
reservation. This is the way members of the ruling sect must think.
Conversely, the commercial mindset works best when members dissent for the
sake of the task. Bonuses are merely a way of encouraging such
outside-the-box thoughts and actions.
Since time immemorial, governments have experimented with the encouragement
of initiative. Such experiments almost always fail, sometimes to the
destruction of the entire country. As such, there is a strong reluctance on
the part of government to put a toe in that water. In fact, as we see here,
there is a strong incentive to impose that principle outside the usual
realm.
Business, on the other hand, has had its most wrenching problems when
employees are deprived of the opportunity to experiment and innovate.
Bottom line: Governments suffer - and even collapse entirely - when they
attempt commercial solutions to guardian problems. Likewise, businesses
suffer when they attempt to operate like a government.*
In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will soon
say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a less
governmental-minded enterprise. Their places will be filled by bureacrats
who know which rubber-stamp to use.
Although not germane to this topic, do not EVER vote for a candidate who
says his experience in running a business will serve the public well and
especially if he says he wants to apply business techniques to your city's
government!
----------
* There is at least one exception to this rule: The Mafia. The Mafia
exhibits parts of both rationales.
On Mar 20, 10:01=A0am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> =A0Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
> >> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay =
on
> >> while they dismantled their divisions. =A0In general, when one is told=
that
> >> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becom=
es
> >> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secon=
dary
> >> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is goin=
g to
> >> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the compa=
ny
> >> for which is position is being eliminated. =A0These retention bonuses =
were
> >> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
> >> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
> >> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
>
> > What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that th=
ose
> > bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out mone=
y.
>
> > Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down on=
ce
> > again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. =A0Like you =
would
> > expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, a=
nd
> > that really scares me.
> > Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts tha=
t
> > would make this story less than sensational.
>
> > IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was cal=
ling
> > the money, =A0bonuses.
>
> Congress didn't "screw up" - what you see is intentional. =A0Frank, Dodd,
> Pelosi, Reid, and even Obama need to stir up the AIG lynch mob to deflect
> attention from their own gross incompetence and responsibility for this
> whole mess. =A0This entire exercise is one in which the congress critters
> are performing an act of misdirection hoping that the sheeple will not
> notice how criminally negligent their politicians are. =A0It will probabl=
y
> work ...
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-- -
> Tim Daneliuk =A0 =A0 [email protected]
> PGP Key: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
And now Pelosi et al, are going to watch a bunch of repuglicans vote
for a tax bill with an increase from 35% to 90%. That'll work well in
the next election cycle. Well played, Nancy.
On Mar 17, 9:20=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote innews:62302bf5-d00f-4133-880c-ae=
[email protected]:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 12:18=A0pm, "Lee Michaels"
> > <leemichaels*[email protected]> wrote:
> >> You have to admit that some of these excutive pay packages are in
> >> another universe, having nothing to do with us mere mortals. =A0I am
> >> certain that they
> >> can find competent people who will work for more reasonable pay. Ithe
> >> big issue for most folks is paying for this out of our pockets. If
> >> the did their
> >> jobs well, we wouldn't have to. So all the big money goes to pay for
> >> incompetence.
>
> >> Reminds me of a comment about the CEO of Boing Aircraft Company. It
> >> went something like this, "He gets over 14 million a year and he
> >> still has not built and delivered the much touted dreamliner
> >> aircraft. =A0Think how much he
> >> will get paid when he actually delivers the dreamliner."
>
> > Well... he did. ....and it is some pretty.
>
> What airline is currently flying the Dreamliner? =A0I thought Boeing was
> catching up on Airbus with respect to delays in delivering aircraft
> promised.
>
I do not know the answer to that. They show it around and it is slick
as a shark. A truly beautiful airplane. I think it is called the 787.
Not sure, I shall Google.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
>
>> Public service and running a business are not compatible... unless
>> you're Haliburton. <G>
>
> Public service and business can certainly work hand in hand, for each
> to be successful, they must; however, they require totally different
> skill sets.
>
> The late Senator Barry Goldwater often commented about how it took
> most of his first term to learn how to work in government.
>
> He felt his prior experiences outside government did little to prepare
> him for working in the Senate.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Note that he was vilified for failing to be sufficiently supportive
of government action and force.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4HEvl.586$6%[email protected]...
> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to employees
> that seem to have such a good contract.
>
> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>
> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that he
> has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large sum of
> income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would want to
> perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure there were no
> errors.
>
> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>
> Lew
>
>
With the current guy in charge of the federal tax system, that may never
happen.
Somebody wrote:
> Public service and running a business are not compatible... unless
> you're Haliburton. <G>
Public service and business can certainly work hand in hand, for each
to be successful, they must; however, they require totally different
skill sets.
The late Senator Barry Goldwater often commented about how it took
most of his first term to learn how to work in government.
He felt his prior experiences outside government did little to prepare
him for working in the Senate.
Lew
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay on
> while they dismantled their divisions. In general, when one is told that
> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becomes
> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secondary
> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is going to
> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the company
> for which is position is being eliminated. These retention bonuses were
> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that those
bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out money.
Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down once
again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you would
expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, and
that really scares me.
Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts that
would make this story less than sensational.
IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was calling
the money, bonuses.
Lee Michaels wrote:
> You have to admit that some of these excutive pay packages are in another
> universe, having nothing to do with us mere mortals. I am certain that
> they can find competent people who will work for more reasonable pay. Ithe
> big issue for most folks is paying for this out of our pockets. If the did
> their jobs well, we wouldn't have to. So all the big money goes to pay for
> incompetence.
>
That sounds really good, but sets a very dangerous precedent. Remember
that the bailout money was also paying the salaries for the other workers
at AIG as well. So, the agreement is that $1M bonuses (that, by the way,
were contracted for before the bailout, so there is an issue of breach of
contract) are excessive. Would $500k been OK? No? How about $250k?
$50k? $10k? $5k? How about the salaries of the employees being paid?
How much is too much, $500k? That seems to be the limit being set by the
president right now. $500k is an awful lot of money, more than most of us
make, since this is a failing company, shouldn't that number be more like
$250k or $100k? Really, since this was a failing company, maybe nobody
should be making more than the US average salary. Now you're getting down
into the government dictating what an average person at a company that
happened to be mis-managed is making. Now, if it's OK to set salaries for
companies being bailed out, should the government be setting salaries for
companies that have government contracts? Pretty soon, the rationale for
why the government can set *your* salary will articulated.
This is nothing more than populism run amok. The thing is, congress set
no limitation in the law limiting how the companies used these bailout
funds. The amount in question here is less than 1/10 of 1% of the total
amount that AIG received. IMO, there should have been no bailout to begin
with -- if a company is going to fail, let it fail or reconstitute itself
through bankruptcy proceedings.
> Reminds me of a comment about the CEO of Boing Aircraft Company. It went
> something like this, "He gets over 14 million a year and he still has not
> built and delivered the much touted dreamliner aircraft. Think how much
> he will get paid when he actually delivers the dreamliner."
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"HeyBub" wrote:
> I checked. You're right. I stand corrected. Airports need only minor
> landing strip modifications (relocation of lights, etc.) to
> accommodate the 380.
>
> The plane is still built by the perfidious Frence, though.
Runways are only part of the of the requirement.
Concourse, boarding gates, baggage handling, etc require serious
upgrades in order to handle the increased passenger load carried by
the 380.
Lew
charlieb wrote:
> Let's clarify something first.
>
> One of Government functions is NOT to MAKE money,
> but rather to SPEND money wisely. Another of the
> functions of Government is to do things "Business/
> The Private Sector" can't, or won't.
>
> Would the Transcontinental Rail Road, or the Tennessee
> Valley Authority (TVA), or The Interstate Highway System,
> or NASA, or The Panama Canal, or The Internet - and all the
> the economic growth they fostered - have happened IF
> Government hadn't financed them?
>
> Let's just take NASA. Because the cost per pound to put
> something in orbit was so high - NASA paid for the birth
> of the semi-conductor industry. Without that stimulus,
> think of just about anything in your home, office and
> car - that isn't directly or indirectly the result of the
> semi-conductor industry - and it's spinoffs. Without NASA,
> think of all the value satellites have added to the world's
> economy. And when you go to a hospital consider what
> wouldn't be there if NASA didn't exist.
>
> Now give me any private sector investment that had
> a comperable Return On Investment, or impact of
> the citizens of this country- as well as other countries.
NASA was not the nexus for the semiconductor industry. The modern
transistor, and its usefulness, came into being in 1947, long before NASA.
But your rhetorical question is not hard to answer. Walmart. Intel.
Microsoft. Hewlitt-Packard. Even today, President Obama is talking about
spending untold sums to assist in computerizing medical records. Walmart is
doing it. Today.
In the past five years, private industry has launched far more satellites
than the U.S. Government.
That's not to say that government doesn't have a roll. They are the only
ones that can FORCE projects thru - such as condemning right of way for
roads or evicting farmers to build a dam.
>
> Then give me examples of Government actions which
> plunged the country into economic depression every
> couple of generations, give or take a decade.
Governments must exercise oversight and act as unbiased arbiters, true. It
failed to do so in the '20s. On the other hand, the Community Reinvestment
Act of 1977 as amended by Clinton in 1995 is the direct cause of today's
troubles.
>
> Wall Street has cost citizens far more money than
> Government has "wasted". And if you use "Welfare
> Fraud" as a prime example of Government Waste,
> do a little research on Corporate Welfare.
"Waste" isn't the issue - you can't build a house without making sawdust. As
Jesus said: "Waste will always be with us" (or words to that effect).
"Wealth" is what matters. Private enterprise creates wealth. Government
destroys it. There is almost nothing government does 'for its citizens' that
couldn't be done better and cheaper by the citizens themselves.
Fight a war? Most wars in history have been fought by mercenaries.
Police protection? In my large city, we have about 20 times the number of
private security guards as cops on the beat.
Fire fighting? Eighty percent of our nation's firefighters are volunteers.
>
> And BTW - why is The Private Sector coming to
> the Tax Payer, demanding money - because they're
> "Too Big To Fail"?
No, they come to the government asking for money because that's where the
money IS. They somehow know that knocking on YOUR door or MY door wouldn't
get them very far. Pretty clever of them, don't you think? I guess that's
why they get paid the big bucks...
"Tim Daneliuk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that
>> those
>> bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out money.
>>
>> Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down once
>> again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you
>> would
>> expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, and
>> that really scares me.
>> Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts that
>> would make this story less than sensational.
>>
>> IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was
>> calling
>> the money, bonuses.
>
> Congress didn't "screw up" - what you see is intentional.
Did uh, you say congress "screwed up"? I did not say congress screwed up.
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:62302bf5-d00f-4133-880c-ae4bacc3e63f@r29g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
> On Mar 17, 12:18 pm, "Lee Michaels"
> <leemichaels*[email protected]> wrote:
>> You have to admit that some of these excutive pay packages are in
>> another universe, having nothing to do with us mere mortals. I am
>> certain that they
>> can find competent people who will work for more reasonable pay. Ithe
>> big issue for most folks is paying for this out of our pockets. If
>> the did their
>> jobs well, we wouldn't have to. So all the big money goes to pay for
>> incompetence.
>>
>> Reminds me of a comment about the CEO of Boing Aircraft Company. It
>> went something like this, "He gets over 14 million a year and he
>> still has not built and delivered the much touted dreamliner
>> aircraft. Think how much he
>> will get paid when he actually delivers the dreamliner."
>
> Well... he did. ....and it is some pretty.
What airline is currently flying the Dreamliner? I thought Boeing was
catching up on Airbus with respect to delays in delivering aircraft
promised.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:80474bbd-6980-4798-bd27-
[email protected]:
>> What airline is currently flying the Dreamliner? ÿI thought Boeing was
>> catching up on Airbus with respect to delays in delivering aircraft
>> promised.
>>
> I do not know the answer to that. They show it around and it is slick
> as a shark. A truly beautiful airplane. I think it is called the 787.
> Not sure, I shall Google.
I wish the big HUGE Airbus would get better reception. Our airports are so
overcrowded, (especially the flightpaths to and from the airports) that the
waiting times and delays are becoming unbearable. Bigger single loads
(plus the capability to load and unload passengers in larger quantities)
would be best (IMHO), rather than more and more little bitty planes flying
to more and more destinations like gnats all around.
(I live near NYC)
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:JXcwl.974$SU3.362
@nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
> "HeyBub" wrote:
>
>> I checked. You're right. I stand corrected. Airports need only minor
>> landing strip modifications (relocation of lights, etc.) to
>> accommodate the 380.
>>
>> The plane is still built by the perfidious Frence, though.
>
> Runways are only part of the of the requirement.
>
> Concourse, boarding gates, baggage handling, etc require serious
> upgrades in order to handle the increased passenger load carried by
> the 380.
>
> Lew
Having had opportunity to travel 747s in economy and gettting to
disembark through the rear doors was a revelation. It goes SOOO much
faster than when everyone has to go through that 1 small door like with a
737, 757, or other Boeing except the 747.
Wouldn't it be worthwhile having better facilities to board and deplane,
and be on time for a change?
Our trip to Disney from Stewart Airport using JetBlue was great! There
are only about 7 or 8 gates, parking was $40 for 5 days, and there were
no traffic jams at the airport.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon wrote:
> What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that those
> bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out money.
>
> Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down once
> again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you would
> expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, and
> that really scares me.
> Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts that
> would make this story less than sensational.
>
> IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was calling
> the money, bonuses.
I think calling it a bonus was fairly accurate, just slightly misspelled.
It should have been called a "boned-us" award.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
>> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay on
>> while they dismantled their divisions. In general, when one is told that
>> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becomes
>> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secondary
>> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is going to
>> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the company
>> for which is position is being eliminated. These retention bonuses were
>> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
>> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
>> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
>
> What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that those
> bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out money.
>
> Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down once
> again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you would
> expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, and
> that really scares me.
> Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts that
> would make this story less than sensational.
>
> IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was calling
> the money, bonuses.
Congress didn't "screw up" - what you see is intentional. Frank, Dodd,
Pelosi, Reid, and even Obama need to stir up the AIG lynch mob to deflect
attention from their own gross incompetence and responsibility for this
whole mess. This entire exercise is one in which the congress critters
are performing an act of misdirection hoping that the sheeple will not
notice how criminally negligent their politicians are. It will probably
work ...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
"J. Clarke" wrote:
> One way or another, the company was contractually obligated to make
> the payments or defend itself in lawsuits in which it would be in
> breach of contract, with the result that the expense would likely be
> several times greater.
Screw the contract, not going to honor it.
So sue me, the gates of hell will have frozen over befrore any money
changes hands, except for the legal fees.
The above has happened many times.
Lew
J. Clarke wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
>> Han wrote:
>>>
>>> I wish the big HUGE Airbus would get better reception. Our airports
>>> are so overcrowded, (especially the flightpaths to and from the
>>> airports) that the waiting times and delays are becoming unbearable.
>>> Bigger single loads (plus the capability to load and unload
>>> passengers in larger quantities) would be best (IMHO), rather than
>>> more and more little bitty planes flying to more and more
>>> destinations like gnats all around.
>>>
>>> (I live near NYC)
>>
>> There are only a handful of airports in the U.S. that can handle the
>> Airbus behemoth. That means that several (many?) airports will need
>> upgrades: Longer runways, condemnation of private lands to
>> accommodate these runways, enhanced servicing facilities (i.e., fuel
>> trucks, provisioning, gates to handle double the passenger load,
>> etc.).
>
> The Airbus 380 is supposed to be able to operate out of any airport
> than can handle the 747.
I checked. You're right. I stand corrected. Airports need only minor landing
strip modifications (relocation of lights, etc.) to accommodate the 380.
The plane is still built by the perfidious Frence, though.
In news:[email protected],
HeyBub <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
>> employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>>=20
>> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>>=20
>> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
>> he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
>> sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
>> want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
>> there were no errors.
>>=20
>> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>>=20
>=20
> The complaint about bonuses is merely an attempt to apply government
> methodology to the commercial environment. Governments don't (or
> shouldn't) award incentives for jobs well done - governments cannot
> survive if they foster initative and efficiency because each implies
> some form of dissent from the received wisdom. Members of the
> guardian mindset must conform for the sake of the task - there can be
> no reward for straying off the reservation. This is the way members
> of the ruling sect must think.=20
>=20
> Conversely, the commercial mindset works best when members dissent
> for the sake of the task. Bonuses are merely a way of encouraging such
> outside-the-box thoughts and actions.
>=20
> Since time immemorial, governments have experimented with the
> encouragement of initiative. Such experiments almost always fail,
> sometimes to the destruction of the entire country. As such, there is
> a strong reluctance on the part of government to put a toe in that
> water. In fact, as we see here, there is a strong incentive to impose
> that principle outside the usual realm.
>=20
> Business, on the other hand, has had its most wrenching problems when
> employees are deprived of the opportunity to experiment and innovate.
>=20
> Bottom line: Governments suffer - and even collapse entirely - when
> they attempt commercial solutions to guardian problems. Likewise,
> businesses suffer when they attempt to operate like a government.*
>=20
> In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will
> soon say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a
> less governmental-minded enterprise. Their places will be filled by
> bureacrats who know which rubber-stamp to use.
>=20
> Although not germane to this topic, do not EVER vote for a candidate
> who says his experience in running a business will serve the public
> well and especially if he says he wants to apply business techniques
> to your city's government!
>=20
> ----------
> * There is at least one exception to this rule: The Mafia. The Mafia
> exhibits parts of both rationales.
And here I thought a bonus was for a job well done ....
NOT one well and truely f'd up. :o)
P D Q
HeyBub wrote:
> Han wrote:
>>
>> I wish the big HUGE Airbus would get better reception. Our airports
>> are so overcrowded, (especially the flightpaths to and from the
>> airports) that the waiting times and delays are becoming unbearable.
>> Bigger single loads (plus the capability to load and unload
>> passengers in larger quantities) would be best (IMHO), rather than
>> more and more little bitty planes flying to more and more
>> destinations like gnats all around.
>>
>> (I live near NYC)
>
> There are only a handful of airports in the U.S. that can handle the
> Airbus behemoth. That means that several (many?) airports will need
> upgrades: Longer runways, condemnation of private lands to
> accommodate these runways, enhanced servicing facilities (i.e., fuel
> trucks, provisioning, gates to handle double the passenger load,
> etc.).
The Airbus 380 is supposed to be able to operate out of any airport than can
handle the 747.
Nova wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that
>> those bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail
>> out money. Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's
>> pants down
>> once again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you
>> would expect they are now making up laws out of anger to
>> try and save face, and that really scares me.
>> Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts
>> that would make this story less than sensational.
>>
>> IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was
>> calling the money, bonuses.
>
> I think calling it a bonus was fairly accurate, just slightly
> misspelled.
> It should have been called a "boned-us" award.
One way or another, the company was contractually obligated to make the
payments or defend itself in lawsuits in which it would be in breach of
contract, with the result that the expense would likely be several times
greater.
The right response to Congress IMO would have been "I've looked at this and
our lawyers have looked at this and we cannot find any legal grounds for
abrogating the contracts under which those payments were made--if you would
be kind enough to provide us some enabling legislation it would be very
helpful.
And Congress immediately enacting a new tax quite frankly makes the Congress
look like vindictive spoiled brats having a tantrum.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>
>> One way or another, the company was contractually obligated to make
>> the payments or defend itself in lawsuits in which it would be in
>> breach of contract, with the result that the expense would likely be
>> several times greater.
>
> Screw the contract, not going to honor it.
>
> So sue me, the gates of hell will have frozen over befrore any money
> changes hands, except for the legal fees.
>
> The above has happened many times.
Well, tell you what, I never, ever want to do business with any company with
which _you_ are involved.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
> employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>
> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>
> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
> he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
> sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
> want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
> there were no errors.
>
> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>
> Lew
Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay on
while they dismantled their divisions. In general, when one is told that
their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becomes
finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secondary
and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is going to
leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the company
for which is position is being eliminated. These retention bonuses were
designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
2) The people being paid the bonuses appear NOT to be the people responsible
for running the company into the ground -- they were brought in to clean up
the mess:
<http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/03/some-reality-for-the-reality-based.html>
3) None of this would be an issue if the country had applied good
old-fashioned capitalism and a) never tried to do the social engineering
through Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the CRA with the idea of "affordable
housing" and government backed mortgages, and b) had let failing companies
fail
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
>
> Bottom line: Governments suffer - and even collapse entirely - when they
> attempt commercial solutions to guardian problems. Likewise, businesses
> suffer when they attempt to operate like a government.*
While that probably seems like a sensible conclusion, ther would be a long
line of competent successors wanting to earn the $1,000,000,00 salary.
the problem with the current situation is that, #1 the government is
trying to cast blame for a policy that it is ultimately responsible for
instituting. #2 The NO ONE is worth or works enough hours to rationalize a
salary or bonus equal to the ones that have been paid. There are plenty of
smart people capable of choosing A, B or C. The problem with those people
that make extraordinary salaries is that those people make a policy change
that makes billions but on a spread sheet those billions are really a very
small percentage of what should be being make.
>
> In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will soon
> say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a less
> governmental-minded enterprise.
Good , good riddance. AIG does not need exec's that get paid millions to
loose billions.
Their places will be filled by bureacrats
> who know which rubber-stamp to use.
Not likely at all, they will probably be replaced by some one from a long
line of people that are just as capable if not more of doing the job.
Han wrote:
>
> I wish the big HUGE Airbus would get better reception. Our airports
> are so overcrowded, (especially the flightpaths to and from the
> airports) that the waiting times and delays are becoming unbearable.
> Bigger single loads (plus the capability to load and unload
> passengers in larger quantities) would be best (IMHO), rather than
> more and more little bitty planes flying to more and more
> destinations like gnats all around.
>
> (I live near NYC)
There are only a handful of airports in the U.S. that can handle the Airbus
behemoth. That means that several (many?) airports will need upgrades:
Longer runways, condemnation of private lands to accommodate these runways,
enhanced servicing facilities (i.e., fuel trucks, provisioning, gates to
handle double the passenger load, etc.).
Implementation of the plane will also mean more money going to the
perfidious French.
Leon wrote:
> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>
>> Bottom line: Governments suffer - and even collapse entirely - when they
>> attempt commercial solutions to guardian problems. Likewise, businesses
>> suffer when they attempt to operate like a government.*
>
> While that probably seems like a sensible conclusion, ther would be a long
> line of competent successors wanting to earn the $1,000,000,00 salary.
> the problem with the current situation is that, #1 the government is
> trying to cast blame for a policy that it is ultimately responsible for
> instituting. #2 The NO ONE is worth or works enough hours to rationalize a
> salary or bonus equal to the ones that have been paid. There are plenty of
> smart people capable of choosing A, B or C. The problem with those people
> that make extraordinary salaries is that those people make a policy change
> that makes billions but on a spread sheet those billions are really a very
> small percentage of what should be being make.
>
>> In the instant case, the AIG people who DON'T get their bonuses will soon
>> say "Screw this, I'm outta here," and they'll go to work for a less
>> governmental-minded enterprise.
>
> Good , good riddance. AIG does not need exec's that get paid millions to
> loose billions.
This only is an issue if the government steps in and tries to
"fix" things. Otherwise, the problem is self-limiting.
>
> Their places will be filled by bureacrats
>> who know which rubber-stamp to use.
>
> Not likely at all, they will probably be replaced by some one from a long
> line of people that are just as capable if not more of doing the job.
>
>
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Robatoy wrote:
>
> Well put, and it is not often we get to read properly executed
> linguistic endeavours such as this. Seriously.
>
> Public service and running a business are not compatible... unless
> you're Haliburton. <G>
>
> ONE reason Mitt Romney should never be allowed near the White House.
> (That is just one reason. Any man who makes his woman dress up in
> funny PJ's to have sex with her is a sick person. Unless it is a clown
> suit... of course.)
It's possible for one mindset to learn the methodologies of another. It
gives them an understanding and that's usually a good thing. Some who spend
ALL their lives in government have no concept (i.e., Clinton, Obama, Nixon,
Kennedy, Johnson).
Bush I came from a political family (his father was a U.S. Senator) but
after the war, he came to Texas with a new bride and only a few million in
his jeans, but made good (ever heard of Pennzoil?) in business before
entering politics. Bush II also came from a political family, but did okay
in private business before becoming governor.
Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon were always politicians. Carter had a stint in
the Navy. Excepting Bush I & II, you have to go back to Truman to find
anybody with a business background.
In the case of Romney, he was successful in business, came from a political
family, and was, himself a governor. Many people who leave government go
into private business, often on the boards of major corporations (i.e.,
Gerald Ford).
>
> Government is there to manage and look after our interests, not to
> screw us out of our money, right?
No. The purpose of government is to protect, perpetuate, and grow itself. If
you're interested, here's a short list of guardian mindset mandates:
Shun trading
Exert prowess
Be obedient and disciplined
Adhere to tradition
Respect hierarchy
Be loyal
Take vengeance
Deceive for the sake of the task
Make rich use of leisure
Be ostentatious
Dispense largess
Be exclusive
Show fortitude
Be fatalistic
Treasure honor
The commercial mindset is characterized by
Shun force
Come to voluntary agreements
Be honest
Collaborate easily with strangers and aliens
Compete
Respect contracts
Use initiative and enterprise
Be open to inventiveness and novelty
Be efficient
Promote comfort and convenience
Dissent for the sake of the task
Invest for productive purposes
Be industrious
Be thrifty
Be optimistic
Leon wrote:
> "Tim Daneliuk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> What I find ammusing is that congress was fully aware last year that
>>> those
>>> bonuses were going to be paid out before AIG received any bail out money.
>>>
>>> Like you would expect, congress has been caught with it's pants down once
>>> again hoping that AIG would not have paid out the bonuses. Like you
>>> would
>>> expect they are now making up laws out of anger to try and save face, and
>>> that really scares me.
>>> Like you would expect the media leaces out all the particular facts that
>>> would make this story less than sensational.
>>>
>>> IMHO where AIG screwed once again on top of many many screw ups was
>>> calling
>>> the money, bonuses.
>> Congress didn't "screw up" - what you see is intentional.
>
>
> Did uh, you say congress "screwed up"? I did not say congress screwed up.
>
>
>
>
Whoops, I read too fast ... my mistaeke...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> All this hub-bub about a few million dollars of bonus money to
>> employees that seem to have such a good contract.
>>
>> Time for a visit from Vido to AIG.
>>
>> Vido would explain to each and every one receiving a large bonus that
>> he has a hunch that someone who files a tax return for such a large
>> sum of income probably has a pretty good chance that the IRS would
>> want to perform a very complete review these tax returns to insure
>> there were no errors.
>>
>> Vido usually has pretty good hunches.
>>
>> Lew
>
> Just to interject some facts into the outrage here:
> 1) The bonuses being paid were to people who were being asked to stay on
> while they dismantled their divisions. In general, when one is told that
> their job is going away, the number one priority for that person becomes
> finding a new job -- any performance on the existing job becomes secondary
> and if another opportunity is found, the person being affected is going to
> leave for the new opportunity rather than finish anything at the company
> for which is position is being eliminated. These retention bonuses were
> designed to keep those people deemed critical to shutting down those
> operations from jumping somewhere else and finishing their assignment.
> That was absolutely critical to the AIG mess.
>
> 2) The people being paid the bonuses appear NOT to be the people
> responsible
> for running the company into the ground -- they were brought in to clean
> up
> the mess:
> <http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/03/some-reality-for-the-reality-based.html>
>
> 3) None of this would be an issue if the country had applied good
> old-fashioned capitalism and a) never tried to do the social engineering
> through Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the CRA with the idea of "affordable
> housing" and government backed mortgages, and b) had let failing companies
> fail
Barney, Nancy, Harry, Chris and ALL your other political heroes are
strumming the stupidity/ignorance of the electorate like a 12 string guitar
... too bad the sound you hear is the death knell of freedom as we've known
it.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)