In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
--
If it ain't perfect, improve it...
But don't break it while you're fixin' it!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Denis M wrote:
> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
> for
> small shop drawing and navigation.
That device has been around for at least 40 years.
Piece of crap, back then, probably still is.
Was given one which I played with one for about 20 minutes before I
threw it away.
A decent size board is probably the most important tool for making
decent drawings(sketches).
After that, a 45, a 30-60, and a decent scale will solve a lot of
drafting problems.
Throw in a pair of dividers and a decent marine chart and you are good
to go to do some navigation.
Lew
Denis M wrote:
> However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts
> and assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At
> that time, corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an
> 8 foot long drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time
> piles of reference drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
=======================================
Still remember a guy on the next drafting board had to do a full size
redraw of a wing strut detail drawing on cloth with ink for a Piper
Cub type scout plane for the Air Force.
The strut was about 17-18 ft.
Definitely was not a job for a rookie which I was at the time.
I often worked on foundry automation, quarter size design layouts.
These layout drawings were usually at least 20-25 ft long, the
drafting boards were home made using 4'x10' plywood and 2" pipe.
You would start at one end of the paper and work your way to the
other, shifting the paper on the board as you went, keeping the unused
paper rolled at the end(s) of the table.
Lew
Denis M wrote:
> I now have a 34.5 overall length with a 30.5 water line sailboat.
Custom?
> Last summer we were gone for one month cruising the Bay of Fundy and
> Coast of Nova Scotia.
Never had the chance to get there, but understand, even though the
season is short, the work to get there is worth the effort.
I'm on another sailing list with a guy from Annapolis who has cruised
that area.
Lew
Denis M wrote:
> Looks like you had the proper training. Many engineering firms had
> young graduated engineer working two years on the drafting board
> before having project of their own.
I was fortunate enough to go to a co-op school.
All my board time was while I was going to school.
After graduation, my drafting tools just gathered dust until I started
sailing.
Lew
On 10/22/2009 8:21 PM Gordon Shumway spake thus:
> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:42:17 -0500, Steve Turner
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my
>> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup
>> war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and
>> paper for many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting
>> board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have
>> fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of
>> the two most useful classes I ever took (typing being the second;
>> and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!). Unfortunately, I no longer
>> have a decent drafting table, the T-square is long gone, and all I
>> have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils and a
>> sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
>> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>> recommendations?
>
> We used Vemco drafting machines at Caterpillar until the early 80's
> when the digital age was upon us. I would highly recommend Vemco.
Mine's a Bruning (same difference, I guess): I love it. Traded a
parallel rule machine that my company discarded for it. Fitted it with a
couple Vemco rules and it's right purty.
A picture of a similar machine:
http://www.worthpoint.com/pmimages/images1/1/1206/06/1_1cc706061ebd4233eee7023a6f20bb22.jpg
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
On 10/23/2009 8:44 AM J. Clarke spake thus:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/22/2009 8:21 PM Gordon Shumway spake thus:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:42:17 -0500, Steve Turner
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I always had a hankering for one of those fancy drafting
>>>>> machines (like this guy:
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>>>> recommendations?
>>>>
>>>> We used Vemco drafting machines at Caterpillar until the early 80's
>>>> when the digital age was upon us. I would highly recommend Vemco.
>>>
>>> Mine's a Bruning (same difference, I guess): I love it. Traded a
>>> parallel rule machine that my company discarded for it. Fitted it
>>> with a couple Vemco rules and it's right purty.
>>
>> Speaking of the rules, are their designs fairly universal and
>> interchangeable among the various brands of drafting machines? I've
>> seen several machines for sale on eBay that didn't have rules, and
>> my tendency was to shy away from them, but if new rules are easily
>> obtained for a decent price then I guess I shouldn't let that deter
>> me.
>
> Can't say with certainty for all machines, but my Mutoh works fine with
> Vemco scales and the Alvin "universals".
I'm pretty sure that Vemco is the standard for all machines of this type.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
On 10/23/2009 7:53 AM WW spake thus:
> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
>> recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
>> we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of my
>> design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
>> triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
>> drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
>> took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
>> long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils
>> and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
>> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those fancy
>> drafting machines (like this guy:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody own
>> one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>
> I just use a simple drafting board and tools as I did in high school. That
> is all we had then. Class of 1944. WW
Ah, well, you haven't lived until you've used a drafting machine. Once
you do you'll throw away your T-square. Just imagine: a horizontal rule
that can be set to *any angle* on your drawing board, accurately and
re-settably.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
>>recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
>>we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
>>my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
>>triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
>>drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
>>took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>>Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
>>long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
>>pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
>>since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>>fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
>>own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>
> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine has
> been
> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for the
> small
> amount of time that it actually got used.
>
> scott
>
> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move vertically
> on the table while remaining parallel.
The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight cordless brass
bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two gears
would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool that I
used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better tools
not to mention CAD.
Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good for
small shop drawing and navigation.
See the following link for better details
http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rolling-paralellel-rulers.html
"Ed Edelenbos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "David Nebenzahl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/23/2009 7:53 AM WW spake thus:
>>
>>> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my
>>>> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war,
>>>> shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for
>>>> many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board,
>>>> T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond
>>>> memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of the two most
>>>> useful classes I ever took (typing being the second; and man was that
>>>> Mrs. Utz a hottie!). Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting
>>>> table, the T-square is long gone, and all I have left are a few
>>>> triangles and my drafting pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify
>>>> that, but then again ever since taking drafting class I always had a
>>>> hankering for one of those fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
>>>> own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>>>
>>> I just use a simple drafting board and tools as I did in high school.
>>> That is all we had then. Class of 1944. WW
>>
>> Ah, well, you haven't lived until you've used a drafting machine. Once
>> you do you'll throw away your T-square. Just imagine: a horizontal rule
>> that can be set to *any angle* on your drawing board, accurately and
>> re-settably.
>>
>
> I've used both professionally (uhm... some 25 or 30 years ago) and at
> home. I also used some cad software somewhere along the line. I still
> *prefer* the pencil and paper way. If I were going to use it every day,
> I'd go for the fixed table and machine. Since it's something I do
> infrequently, a board, a t-square, and some angles are fine. Actually,
> quad paper and a ruler does the majority of what I need anymore.
>
> Ed
I had the opportunity to use all the drafting tools and equipment including
CAD.
Like what Ed just said a t-square, and some angles can do the job.
Most of my furniture designs are done with free hand sketching.
When the furniture is completed I do an as build drawing.
An example of this is I start to make a sketch of a chair. Then I build a
prototype.
Once I am happy with the prototype I take all the dimensions and make an
ass'y
and detailed drawings. This way I can make some jig and fixture to make
more than
one chair.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Denis M wrote:
>> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my
>>>> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup
>>>> war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and
>>>> paper for many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting
>>>> board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have
>>>> fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of
>>>> the two most useful classes I ever took (typing being the second;
>>>> and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!). Unfortunately, I no longer
>>>> have a decent drafting table, the T-square is long gone, and all I
>>>> have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils and a
>>>> sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
>>>> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>>>> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>>> recommendations?
>>>
>>> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine
>>> has been
>>> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for the
>>> small
>>> amount of time that it actually got used.
>>>
>>> scott
>>>
>>> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move
>>> vertically on the table while remaining parallel.
>>
>> The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight cordless
>> brass
>> bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two
>> gears
>> would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool
>> that I
>> used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better
>> tools
>> not to mention CAD.
>
> I'm really surprised that they would have started you out with that
> instead
> of T-square and angles.
>
>> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
>> for
>> small shop drawing and navigation.
>>
>> See the following link for better details
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rolling-paralellel-rulers.html
>
> Not the same thing at all. The corded bar provides a horizontal
> reference,
> the rolling rules don't provide a reference, they just allow a line at a
> given angle to be transferred or repeated.
>
> Personally I don't see what the things with wheels bring to the show that
> the parallelogram type doesn't.
Drafting/Technical school of that day would start you on a classroom
drafting board about 18" X 24" and 36" X 24".
Those boards were only suitable for A, B, and C sizes drawing sheet (i.e.
8½" X 11", 11" X 17" and 17" X 22"). A 24 inches T and small squares were
adequate enough.
(The one I have now is 36 inches long)
However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts and
assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At that time,
corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an 8 foot long
drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time piles of reference
drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Denis M wrote:
>
>> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
>> for
>> small shop drawing and navigation.
>
> That device has been around for at least 40 years.
>
> Piece of crap, back then, probably still is.
>
> Was given one which I played with one for about 20 minutes before I threw
> it away.
>
> A decent size board is probably the most important tool for making decent
> drawings(sketches).
>
> After that, a 45, a 30-60, and a decent scale will solve a lot of drafting
> problems.
>
> Throw in a pair of dividers and a decent marine chart and you are good to
> go to do some navigation.
>
> Lew
Yes, at $7.00 made in china is only worth what we paid for.
Heavy brass is much better but is no longer available.
I do not like the folding parallel rule but I still use them for small
drawings and navigation.
See the following link:
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/navigation/tools/rule-folding-parallel-18-clear-plastic-------------106909-/4,2909.html
Now days, I still carry navigation paper charts on board for back up and
validation.
The chart table (24X24) on my sailboat is too small to accommodate regular
size chart. We have to use the galley table. Instead I use GPS plotter
integrated with all instruments. Most of the navigation is first done on a
PC and transfer to the plotter and paper charts are use for back up when
needed.
Sorry for getting a little off subject.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Denis M wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Denis M wrote:
>>>> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is
>>>>>> my most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a
>>>>>> Sketchup war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using
>>>>>> pencil and paper for many of my design activities. I used my
>>>>>> Dad's drafting board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and
>>>>>> I still have fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high
>>>>>> school, one of the two most useful classes I ever took (typing
>>>>>> being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>>>>>> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the
>>>>>> T-square is long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles
>>>>>> and my drafting pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify
>>>>>> that, but then again ever since taking drafting class I always
>>>>>> had a hankering for one of those fancy drafting machines (like
>>>>>> this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg).
>>>>>> Does anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay;
>>>>>> any recommendations?
>>>>>
>>>>> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine
>>>>> has been
>>>>> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for
>>>>> the small
>>>>> amount of time that it actually got used.
>>>>>
>>>>> scott
>>>>>
>>>>> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move
>>>>> vertically on the table while remaining parallel.
>>>>
>>>> The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight
>>>> cordless brass
>>>> bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two
>>>> gears
>>>> would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool
>>>> that I
>>>> used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better
>>>> tools
>>>> not to mention CAD.
>>>
>>> I'm really surprised that they would have started you out with that
>>> instead
>>> of T-square and angles.
>>>
>>>> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
>>>> for
>>>> small shop drawing and navigation.
>>>>
>>>> See the following link for better details
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rolling-paralellel-rulers.html
>>>
>>> Not the same thing at all. The corded bar provides a horizontal
>>> reference,
>>> the rolling rules don't provide a reference, they just allow a line
>>> at a given angle to be transferred or repeated.
>>>
>>> Personally I don't see what the things with wheels bring to the show
>>> that the parallelogram type doesn't.
>>
>> Drafting/Technical school of that day would start you on a classroom
>> drafting board about 18" X 24" and 36" X 24".
>>
>> Those boards were only suitable for A, B, and C sizes drawing sheet
>> (i.e.
>> 8½" X 11", 11" X 17" and 17" X 22"). A 24 inches T and small squares
>> were
>> adequate enough.
>>
>> (The one I have now is 36 inches long)
>>
>> However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts and
>> assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At that
>> time,
>> corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an 8 foot long
>> drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time piles of
>> reference
>> drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
>
> How did you get your horizontal reference?
The drafting tables were covered with light green grid paper similar to
http://www.draftingsteals.com/mss-advance-search.html.
The grids on the paper cover were carefully aligned parallel to the top of
the table
and the parallism validated with the heavy brass parallel bar. The drafting
paper was translucent and the grid visible and used as references.
When no grid table cover was available the drafting paper/cotton/Mylar were
pin or tape parallel and square to the table. This procedure was not the
best but senior draftsmen had no problem with it. Subsequently the drafting
sheets were made with a printed frame and logos. It became much easier to
position the sheet square to the table. When the drafting machines became
available it took much less time to produce drawings. Now with the CAD it
like night and day.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Denis M wrote:
>
>> I do not like the folding parallel rule but I still use them for small
>> drawings and navigation.
>
> I just used triangles.
>
> The chart table (24"X24") on my sailboat is too small to accommodate
> regular
>> size chart.
>
> What do you sail and where?
>
> Lew
I now have a 34.5 overall length with a 30.5 water line sailboat.
Last summer we were gone for one month cruising the Bay of Fundy and Coast
of Nova Scotia.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Denis M wrote:
>
>> However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts and
>> assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At that time,
>> corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an 8 foot long
>> drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time piles of reference
>> drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
>
> =======================================
> Still remember a guy on the next drafting board had to do a full size
> redraw of a wing strut detail drawing on cloth with ink for a Piper Cub
> type scout plane for the Air Force.
>
> The strut was about 17-18 ft.
>
> Definitely was not a job for a rookie which I was at the time.
>
> I often worked on foundry automation, quarter size design layouts.
>
> These layout drawings were usually at least 20-25 ft long, the drafting
> boards were home made using 4'x10' plywood and 2" pipe.
>
> You would start at one end of the paper and work your way to the other,
> shifting the paper on the board as you went, keeping the unused paper
> rolled at the end(s) of the table.
>
> Lew
Looks like you had the proper training. Many engineering firms had young
graduated engineer working two years on the drafting board before having
project of their own.
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:42:17 -0500, Steve Turner
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
>recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
>we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
>my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
>triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
>drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
>took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
>long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
>pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
>since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
>own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
We used Vemco drafting machines at Caterpillar until the early 80's
when the digital age was upon us. I would highly recommend Vemco.
Fortunately I got a copy of Wildfire 2 (Pro-Engineer predecessor)
about the time I retired and every project I do I model it with
Wildfire.
Gordon Shumway
One positive thing about 'Cash for Clunkers' is that
it took thousands of Obama bumper stickers off the road.
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Also, any recommendations on size? I've seen 16" and 24" machines; do
> they make others? Would I be sorry if I got a 16" instead of a 24"?
>
2 things to consider... the typical size of your drawings and the space
available for your drafting table.
If your typical paper size is 9x12 or even 12x18, the 16" will be plenty.
You can move the machine to extend a line now and then. If your paper will
be larger sizes you might benefit from the larger size. Also, unless I'm
mistaken (it's been a while), you can get various sized rules and screw them
on depending on the size you need.
Ed
"David Nebenzahl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/23/2009 7:53 AM WW spake thus:
>
>> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
> >
>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
>>> recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
>>> we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
>>> my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
>>> triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
>>> drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
>>> took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>>> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
>>> long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
>>> pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
>>> since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>>> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
>>> own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>>
>> I just use a simple drafting board and tools as I did in high school.
>> That is all we had then. Class of 1944. WW
>
> Ah, well, you haven't lived until you've used a drafting machine. Once you
> do you'll throw away your T-square. Just imagine: a horizontal rule that
> can be set to *any angle* on your drawing board, accurately and
> re-settably.
>
I've used both professionally (uhm... some 25 or 30 years ago) and at home.
I also used some cad software somewhere along the line. I still *prefer*
the pencil and paper way. If I were going to use it every day, I'd go for
the fixed table and machine. Since it's something I do infrequently, a
board, a t-square, and some angles are fine. Actually, quad paper and a
ruler does the majority of what I need anymore.
Ed
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
> recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
> we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of my
> design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
> triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
> drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
> took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
> long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils
> and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those fancy
> drafting machines (like this guy:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody own
> one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>
> --
> If it ain't perfect, improve it...
> But don't break it while you're fixin' it!
> To reply, eat the taco.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
I just use a simple drafting board and tools as I did in high school. That
is all we had then. Class of 1944. WW
Steve Turner wrote:
> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my
> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup
> war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper
> for many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board,
> T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond
> memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of the two most
> useful classes I ever took (typing being the second; and man was that
> Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
I agree, learning rudimentary drafting in shop class (and watching my dad
design buildings) and learning typing were both highly useful. Now that you
mention it my typing teacher was kind of hot. I still have some of my dad's
drafting instruments, but my own paper designs are pretty rough, just enough
to get everything straight in my mind. Well, maybe not entirely straight,
yesterday I managed to produce a parallelogram instead of a trapezoid from a
sheet of laminated pine, got a good laugh out of that. All those precise
measuring instruments and ingenious use of clamps etc. and I still cut the
damn line wrong--apparently there's no tool that can prevent brain-farts.
I used my engineering tri-scale to measure a drawing. It is in a special long
drawer with a pull down door easy to get to.
My triangles are in the same shoulder high door.
Oh - my French curves are there as well :-)
And I only used them in High School - started with CAD on my 8080 - home brew
and continued on through Cadence PCB / IC software in the end.
Martin
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Denis M wrote:
>
>> I do not like the folding parallel rule but I still use them for
>> small drawings and navigation.
>
> I just used triangles.
>
> The chart table (24"X24") on my sailboat is too small to accommodate
> regular
>> size chart.
>
> What do you sail and where?
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Landscape drawings also on E-size. I just de-commissioned my E-size or r=
eally
any size up to E - actually 36" x 150' long rolls. Shame, the mover brok=
e it
and refused to pay off.
Martin
Denis M wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
>> Denis M wrote:
>>> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my=
>>>>> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup
>>>>> war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and
>>>>> paper for many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting
>>>>> board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have
>>>>> fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of=
>>>>> the two most useful classes I ever took (typing being the second;
>>>>> and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!). Unfortunately, I no longer
>>>>> have a decent drafting table, the T-square is long gone, and all I
>>>>> have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils and a
>>>>> sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
>>>>> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>>>>> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>>>> recommendations?
>>>> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine
>>>> has been
>>>> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for th=
e
>>>> small
>>>> amount of time that it actually got used.
>>>>
>>>> scott
>>>>
>>>> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move
>>>> vertically on the table while remaining parallel.
>>> The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight cordless=
>>> brass
>>> bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two
>>> gears
>>> would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool
>>> that I
>>> used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better
>>> tools
>>> not to mention CAD.
>> I'm really surprised that they would have started you out with that=20
>> instead
>> of T-square and angles.
>>
>>> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
>>> for
>>> small shop drawing and navigation.
>>>
>>> See the following link for better details
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rollin=
g-paralellel-rulers.html
>> Not the same thing at all. The corded bar provides a horizontal=20
>> reference,
>> the rolling rules don't provide a reference, they just allow a line at=
a
>> given angle to be transferred or repeated.
>>
>> Personally I don't see what the things with wheels bring to the show t=
hat
>> the parallelogram type doesn't.
>=20
> Drafting/Technical school of that day would start you on a classroom=20
> drafting board about 18" X 24" and 36" X 24".
>=20
> Those boards were only suitable for A, B, and C sizes drawing sheet (i.=
e.=20
> 8=BD" X 11", 11" X 17" and 17" X 22"). A 24 inches T and small squares=
were=20
> adequate enough.
>=20
> (The one I have now is 36 inches long)
>=20
> However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts and =
> assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At that time,=
=20
> corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an 8 foot long=20
> drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time piles of referenc=
e=20
> drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
>=20
>=20
Denis M wrote:
> An example of this is I start to make a sketch of a chair. Then I build a
> prototype.
> Once I am happy with the prototype I take all the dimensions and make an
> ass'y
> and detailed drawings. This way I can make some jig and fixture to make
> more than
> one chair.
An excellent way to work, particularly with chairs. I did a reproduction
one a few years back and kept a fairly good pictorial record of almost
exactly the process you describe.
Since it was a copy, and I had the original as a go by, I got to start
with a full scale drawing:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects10.htm
And, as you say, the jigs developed in making the prototype were the
name of the game. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Oct 22, 10:42=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
wrote:
> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
> recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
> we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
> my design activities. =A0I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
> triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
> drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
> took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
> long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
> pencils and a sharpener. =A0I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
> since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:=
Zeichenmaschine.jpg). =A0Does anybody
> own one? =A0There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
>
> --
> If it ain't perfect, improve it...
> But don't break it while you're fixin' it!
> To reply, eat the taco.http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
I still have my K&E and had it rebuilt a few years ago. Fluid drive.
Like silk.
It's not up right now, but will be as soon as I have a place for my
board.
For a quick sketch, to step back, do a tweak, walk into the shop with
it, start building.
For years I had a monitor perched on top my board, keyboard and
trackball on a shelf, and used both systems at the same time.
I guess the big thing to watch for is the problem most machines
develop and that is brake alignment...i.e. when you lock the
mechanics, do the scales stay true to the axis.
Sorry, I don't have any recommendations but you brought back some
memories for me.
The ones we used in college just had the cable and track mechanism.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 10/22/2009 8:21 PM Gordon Shumway spake thus:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:42:17 -0500, Steve Turner
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I always had a hankering for one of those fancy
>>> drafting machines (like this guy:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>> recommendations?
>>
>> We used Vemco drafting machines at Caterpillar until the early 80's
>> when the digital age was upon us. I would highly recommend Vemco.
>
> Mine's a Bruning (same difference, I guess): I love it. Traded a
> parallel rule machine that my company discarded for it. Fitted it with a
> couple Vemco rules and it's right purty.
Speaking of the rules, are their designs fairly universal and interchangeable among the
various brands of drafting machines? I've seen several machines for sale on eBay that
didn't have rules, and my tendency was to shy away from them, but if new rules are easily
obtained for a decent price then I guess I shouldn't let that deter me.
Also, any recommendations on size? I've seen 16" and 24" machines; do they make others?
Would I be sorry if I got a 16" instead of a 24"?
--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Steve Turner wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>> On 10/22/2009 8:21 PM Gordon Shumway spake thus:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:42:17 -0500, Steve Turner
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I always had a hankering for one of those fancy
>>>> drafting machines (like this guy:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>>> recommendations?
>>>
>>> We used Vemco drafting machines at Caterpillar until the early 80's
>>> when the digital age was upon us. I would highly recommend Vemco.
>>
>> Mine's a Bruning (same difference, I guess): I love it. Traded a
>> parallel rule machine that my company discarded for it. Fitted it
>> with a couple Vemco rules and it's right purty.
>
> Speaking of the rules, are their designs fairly universal and
> interchangeable among the
> various brands of drafting machines? I've seen several machines for
> sale on eBay that
> didn't have rules, and my tendency was to shy away from them, but if
> new rules are easily
> obtained for a decent price then I guess I shouldn't let that deter
> me.
Can't say with certainty for all machines, but my Mutoh works fine with
Vemco scales and the Alvin "universals".
> Also, any recommendations on size? I've seen 16" and 24" machines;
> do they make others?
> Would I be sorry if I got a 16" instead of a 24"?
There is a table of recommended machine sizes vs board sizes on the Vemco
site at http://www.vemcocorp.com/elbow_comparson_size.htm.
Note by the way the distinction between "standard" and "civil engineer"
machines--a "civil engineer" machine will typically have a vernier that
allows it to be set to within 1 minute of angle vs 5 for a standard machine,
but it doesn't have the 15 degree indexed stops so in practice it's a bit
slower to use for most general work.
Some time spent poking around the Vemco site will IMO be well
rewarded--there's a lot of information about their machines including
downloadable copies of the user's manuals.
Denis M wrote:
> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my
>>> most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup
>>> war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and
>>> paper for many of my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting
>>> board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and I still have
>>> fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high school, one of
>>> the two most useful classes I ever took (typing being the second;
>>> and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!). Unfortunately, I no longer
>>> have a decent drafting table, the T-square is long gone, and all I
>>> have left are a few triangles and my drafting pencils and a
>>> sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever since
>>> taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>>> fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does
>>> anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any
>>> recommendations?
>>
>> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine
>> has been
>> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for the
>> small
>> amount of time that it actually got used.
>>
>> scott
>>
>> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move
>> vertically on the table while remaining parallel.
>
> The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight cordless
> brass
> bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two
> gears
> would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool
> that I
> used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better
> tools
> not to mention CAD.
I'm really surprised that they would have started you out with that instead
of T-square and angles.
> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
> for
> small shop drawing and navigation.
>
> See the following link for better details
>
>
>
> http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rolling-paralellel-rulers.html
Not the same thing at all. The corded bar provides a horizontal reference,
the rolling rules don't provide a reference, they just allow a line at a
given angle to be transferred or repeated.
Personally I don't see what the things with wheels bring to the show that
the parallelogram type doesn't.
Denis M wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Denis M wrote:
>>> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>> In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is
>>>>> my most recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a
>>>>> Sketchup war, shall we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using
>>>>> pencil and paper for many of my design activities. I used my
>>>>> Dad's drafting board, T-square, and triangles for many years, and
>>>>> I still have fond, fond memories of taking drafting class in high
>>>>> school, one of the two most useful classes I ever took (typing
>>>>> being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>>>>> Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the
>>>>> T-square is long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles
>>>>> and my drafting pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify
>>>>> that, but then again ever since taking drafting class I always
>>>>> had a hankering for one of those fancy drafting machines (like
>>>>> this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg).
>>>>> Does anybody own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay;
>>>>> any recommendations?
>>>>
>>>> I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine
>>>> has been
>>>> relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for
>>>> the small
>>>> amount of time that it actually got used.
>>>>
>>>> scott
>>>>
>>>> [*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move
>>>> vertically on the table while remaining parallel.
>>>
>>> The ancestor of that corded parallel bar is the heavy weight
>>> cordless brass
>>> bar. It was equipped with a low profile gear at each end. The two
>>> gears
>>> would maintain the parallelism of the bar. It was the first tool
>>> that I
>>> used as an apprentice draftsman. Then we progressed to much better
>>> tools
>>> not to mention CAD.
>>
>> I'm really surprised that they would have started you out with that
>> instead
>> of T-square and angles.
>>
>>> Today they make a plastic rolling-paralleled rule that is very good
>>> for
>>> small shop drawing and navigation.
>>>
>>> See the following link for better details
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.draftingsteals.com/catalog-drafting---drawing-aides-rolling-paralellel-rulers.html
>>
>> Not the same thing at all. The corded bar provides a horizontal
>> reference,
>> the rolling rules don't provide a reference, they just allow a line
>> at a given angle to be transferred or repeated.
>>
>> Personally I don't see what the things with wheels bring to the show
>> that the parallelogram type doesn't.
>
> Drafting/Technical school of that day would start you on a classroom
> drafting board about 18" X 24" and 36" X 24".
>
> Those boards were only suitable for A, B, and C sizes drawing sheet
> (i.e.
> 8½" X 11", 11" X 17" and 17" X 22"). A 24 inches T and small squares
> were
> adequate enough.
>
> (The one I have now is 36 inches long)
>
> However the Ship building and Aircraft industries required layouts and
> assembly drawings larger than E size drawing (34"X 44"). At that
> time,
> corded parallel bar and T square were not adequate for an 8 foot long
> drafting table. Not to mention that most of the time piles of
> reference
> drawings were stacked at one end of the table.
How did you get your horizontal reference?
Steve Turner <[email protected]> writes:
>In spite of having used CAD programs for many years (TurboCAD is my most
>recent tool, and let's not have this degrade into a Sketchup war, shall
>we?) I still resort to (and enjoy!) using pencil and paper for many of
>my design activities. I used my Dad's drafting board, T-square, and
>triangles for many years, and I still have fond, fond memories of taking
>drafting class in high school, one of the two most useful classes I ever
>took (typing being the second; and man was that Mrs. Utz a hottie!).
>Unfortunately, I no longer have a decent drafting table, the T-square is
>long gone, and all I have left are a few triangles and my drafting
>pencils and a sharpener. I'd like to rectify that, but then again ever
>since taking drafting class I always had a hankering for one of those
>fancy drafting machines (like this guy:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichenmaschine.jpg). Does anybody
>own one? There are lots of them for sale on eBay; any recommendations?
I tend to prefer the parallel-bar[*] tables myself. However, mine has been
relegated to the Attic since it takes up too much floor space for the small
amount of time that it actually got used.
scott
[*] Cords on both sides of the reference bar allow it to move vertically
on the table while remaining parallel.