Opinions/Flamecatcher - Craftsman Power Tools

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as
> important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.

It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your six
screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head bolt on
your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles away, quality
suddenly becomes very important.

>
> It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your six
> screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head bolt on
> your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles away,
> quality
> suddenly becomes very important.
>
Yes but there are other hand tools out there that duplicate the Craftsman
life time warranty and 1/2 the price - example is Master Mechanic.

mac davis wrote:

> IMHO, you not only get what you pay for, but research is important, as
> we all see here with folks asking opinions here before buying..
> This has ALWAYS been a key to buying Craftsman power tools,
> appliances, etc... (been buying there since they came out with
> ergonomic rocks to pound sticks with)
> Since they have never (afaik) made their own products, you have to
> know who makes each one for them..
> I have a Craftsman biscuit joiner... go to sears.com and look at the
> picture... hmm... rack & pinion fence... I thought only Dewalt had
> that.... OH!

Craftsman biscuit jointer - $169.99 at Sears
DeWalt biscuit joiner - $149.00 at Coastal Tools

I'd would have bought the DeWalt.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:12:41 -0500, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:

>mac davis wrote:
>
>> IMHO, you not only get what you pay for, but research is important, as
>> we all see here with folks asking opinions here before buying..
>> This has ALWAYS been a key to buying Craftsman power tools,
>> appliances, etc... (been buying there since they came out with
>> ergonomic rocks to pound sticks with)
>> Since they have never (afaik) made their own products, you have to
>> know who makes each one for them..
>> I have a Craftsman biscuit joiner... go to sears.com and look at the
>> picture... hmm... rack & pinion fence... I thought only Dewalt had
>> that.... OH!
>
>Craftsman biscuit jointer - $169.99 at Sears
>DeWalt biscuit joiner - $149.00 at Coastal Tools
>
>I'd would have bought the DeWalt.

you being the authority, I'll have my wife take back her present and
get me the dewalt..
this of course has a lot of bearing on the topic, right?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as
>> important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.
>
> It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your six
> screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head bolt on
> your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles away,
> quality suddenly becomes very important.
I have a duplicate of most hand tools in a tool chest in my garage and
stuffed in a tool bag inside my truck so if one were to break I have a
spare.

> However, let's put this all in perspective. We here on the wreck are
> not Sears' market. I had a discussion one time with a friend who was
> an occasional DIYer and who was talking about getting a jig saw to do
> some paneling. I had just gotten my Bosch and was extolling the
> virtues. He asked how much and when I told him $150 he blanched. He
> said he could buy a $30 saw, do a satisfactory job on the panelling
> and throw it away FIVE times for what I paid for the Bosch.
>
> I couldn't argue with him. He had no sense of what the feel of a
> quality tool in one's hand meant because it wasn't important to him.
> HE and those like him are Sears' market. Consequently, from our point
> of view, Sears will continue to go downhill.
>
In-laws bought me a B&D jig saw. I have pulled it out twice in the 5 years
attempted to cut something with it and put it away, the thing can't even
cut straight so even though it was cheaper than a good saw it was a
complete waste of money because its totally unuseable.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> (BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)

Why not include the hand tools? They are not as good as the older stuff
either.

Actually, a lot of tools today are not as well made (durable) as they were
years ago. Black & Decker used to be a respected name, Skil made its
reputation with the circular saw for the masses; now it is a WalMart
supplier. Sears made a decision to sell high volume at a certain price
point. Some of their stuff is OK, but a lot is mediocre. Not knowing
sometimes, I tend to avoid it all now.

Yes, I remember when Craftsman was respected and used by real craftsman.
Right along side B & D and Disston saws. Life changes. .

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:27:12 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>
.
>I have a duplicate of most hand tools in a tool chest in my garage and
>stuffed in a tool bag inside my truck so if one were to break I have a
>spare.
==============
I already posted my comments on Craftsman power tools...

BUT I also restore, drive, and repair old cars as a hobby... I have
roll around tool boxes in both of my garages so I too have duplicate
wrenches,sockets etc ...and 90 percent of my hand tools are
Craftsman...

However every single one of my sockets and swivels etc that I use with
my air tools are Snap On.... learned long ago that Craftsman Impact
sockets just do not hold up...even with their free replacement
warranty you will no longer find any in my tool chests...

A few weeks ago I could not find my 3/8 inch "pair" of line wrenches
when I was installing brake calibers on one of my cars and had to run
into Sears . needed 2 and paid $18.95 EACH double ouch!..was
expecting $ 5.99.... shows you how much I know about tool costs
today...

Anyway Son Number two had both of my 3/8 inch line wrenches in his
garage ...told me he was sorry that he did not return them LAST YEAR
after he borrowed them... Guess what I plan on letting him keep for
Christmas this year...

Bob Griffiths

RonB wrote:

> Let me start by saying I am not trolling - I am curious. I am looking for
> opinions and if the subject bothers you, move on.
>
> We see lots of opinions regarding tool brands here and Craftsman sticks
> out. It appears as though our opinions on Craftsman power tools run from
> very
> supportive to downright venomous. Personally, as I read some of these
> posts I try to imagine who sent them - particularly in terms of experience
> and age.
>
> I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming
> from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up
> until the early 80's. In fact some of us older geezers might still have
> 70's vintage routers, circular saws, sanders or other machines that are
> still serving us well. A lot of the maintenance on these old machines
> amounted to replacing power cords and brushes. We also remember when it
> took three guys to move their cast-iron winged table saws, drill presses
> or old jointers.
>
> My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
> by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?
>
> (BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)
I'm not old enough to know about the old stuff but have purchased a few new
craftsman tools. I have bought my father 3 craftsman cordless drills in
the last 10 years and still use my Makita purchased in 1995. I finally had
to buy a new battery for it last year and when the third Craftsman drill
dad was using died I wised up and bought a Makita like mine (got it from
sears even). My Craftsman Professional router bought a couple years ago
was anything but professional and caused much frustration and made me
wonder what I was doing wrong when nothing would work right. When I went
out and bought a PC router and pulled the bit out of the craftsman and
placed it in the PC and it cut so much easier and smoother I was blown
away, same exact bit just a different motor made a huge difference.

Actually a more scathing review of the older stuff than I was expecting. I
do have a couple of the older hand power tools that keep going and a
Craftsman drill press that will probably be sold at my estate sale. I, like
you, used to just go to Sears when I needed a tool - no more.

At the risk of starting a real flame, I believe they continue to go
downhill. I am amused when I hear the new Craftsman "cabinet saw" compared
to machines like the Unisaw or ever Griz 1023. Granted they must have a
fairly substantial table to get them into the advertised 400 pound range.
However, beneath the table there is little comparison. When I open the side
panel on a Unisaw or 1023 most of what I see is cast iron trunnions and some
of the motor and blade. Motor, blade and belts are very visible on the
other.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Ah, where to start? I guess the first place is with the myth that
> Sears ever did make quality tools (I know Sears didn't make them, but
> for simplicity, let's just use the phrase). I have more than a little
> experience with Crafstman tools, and I know what I'm talking about.
>
> I grew up in a woodworking/DIY household and I remember many, many
> trips to Sears and visiting the tool department (9, for those of you
> who wonder how Sears numbers their departments). Compared to the sorry
> pieces of 3rd hand junk my father was using in his shop, some of those
> tools looked positively magnificent. Perspective jolt: this was in the
> '50s/'60s.
>
> I remember well the Christmas my mother bought my father a set of
> Craftsman power tools: saber saw (that's what we called a jig saw in
> those days), drill, sheet sander. Admittedly, they had steel bodies,
> but however robust they may have appeared, only one of them was still
> in his shop when I cleaned it out after he died, and I'm not sure it
> was working. I didn't even bother keeping it.
>
> At one time my shop looked like a Sears catalog. Stupid? No. In the
> '60s, '70s, and '80s there weren't the places to buy Delta,
> Powermatic, and Porter-Cable tools like there are now. Makita and
> Hitachi were still on the horizon. There was no internet. There were
> precious few magaizines advertising them. Shoot, where I lived you
> couldn't even buy hardwood. I never had a piece of real hardwood until
> I was 30. (I can hear it now: you had softwood? We WISHED we had
> softwood. We had to build bedroom suites out of cardboard and we were
> grateful.)
>
> I started out in 1972 with a Craftsman radial arm saw. Problems: well
> documented lack of stability in alignment. Cheesy table to frame
> attachment and fence clamp. My saw was one of the last with a solid
> cast iron column; they subsequently built them with bolt-together
> castings. It's waiting to be sold.
>
> Around 1973 I bought a Craftsman drill press. It was okay. In fact it
> had a couple of features that I really came to appreciate when it came
> time to look for a replacement, as most Delta/PM/Jet didn't have them:
> quill lock, light. That said, eventually some slop developed in the
> quill--not axially; vertically. I tried and tried and tried to figure
> out where it came from and how to fix it and couldn't I replaced it
> with a Delta 17-925...with a quill lock. If I had to, I could lift the
> Sears DP. The 17-925 is around 250 lbs.
>
> Around 1974 I bought a Craftsman bandsaw. Problems: pain in the butt
> one piece door that made blade changing tedious. Other than that this
> was actually not too bad a tool. I replaced it after nearly 20 years
> with a Delta 28-280. Same story as the one below about weight. It was
> impossible for me to get the saw up on the stand by myself without a
> block and tackle. And after a few times at the saw I could see there
> was a world of difference between the saws.
>
> A year later ('75) I bought a Craftsman jointer. I could adjust the
> gibs on the infeed table perfectly square to the outfeed table OR I
> could adjust the height of the table with the adjustment knob to
> change the depth of cut. In years of trying to reengineer the thing,
> and with a second table from Sears I was never able to make the thing
> work like it was supposed to. I could edge joint boards reasonably
> well, but forget about face jointing. If you think that Craftsman and
> Delta are even remotely equivalent, I could lift the Sears jointer up
> and down off its stand by myself with ease. I challenge you to try
> that with a DJ15, much less a DJ20.
>
> After initially building a lathe and never being satisfied with it, I
> bought a Craftsman lathe. It's okay, but my Jet mini lathe (acquired
> many years later) is twice the lathe, even at 1/3 the size. Also, in a
> common theme with other Sears tools, all the attachments are an odd
> size. Fortunately, that size is accommodated by most of the after
> market manufacturers, unlike some of the other odd size selections in
> Craftsman tools.
>
> Table saw. Here we get to the heart of the myth that Craftsman used to
> be something. My saw, obviously acquired used, is vintage 1955 or
> thereabouts. It is essentially the same saw with respect to table and
> innards as the saws sold right up to Emerson's ouster in the late
> '90s. The fence rail *looked* better and I always thought had been a
> long lamented victim of lowered specs to meet a price point until I
> actually had it. What a piece of crap. I later added an aftermarket
> fence which does a reasonable job.
>
> The trunnions are some sort of non-cast iron metal. I don't think it's
> quite pot metal, but then I'm not sure what that is anyway. They're
> nowhere, no way near as substantial as even contractor saws by other
> manufacturers, much less the redoubtable cabinet saws of
> Delta/Powermatic/Jet. And any thought of robust construction is dashed
> when you see and feel the sheet metal body that holds it all together.
> Again, I can lift the saw up and down off the base by myself,
> contrasted to the 400+ pounds of my Unisaw.
>
> The miter slot anomaly of the Craftsman is legendary. They use a .750"
> slot (with a .746" bar) where other manufacturers use a .750" bar in a
> .755" slot. Sears advertises a "standard 3/8 x 3/4 miter slot", but
> it's only standard in Sears' saws.
>
> Belt sander. I can't remember when I bought this, but the tensioning
> mechanism is a bastard set up if ever I saw one. I have to reengineer
> the damn thing every time I change belts. Consequently, it doesn't see
> much use. If I needed a belt sander any more than I do, I'd junk this
> one and get a new P-C, Bosch, or Makita.
>
> Jig saw. I fought and fought with this piece of crap for years. The
> blades wouldn't stay straight and they wouldn't stay in place. Cuts
> were a crap shoot every time. I thought it was the nature of the beast
> (jig saw, not Craftsman) until I bought a Bosch. My god, what were
> they (Sears) thinking?
>
> Router. ARHA (Automatic Random Height Adjustment). Need I say more?
> I've been bitten so many times by it that I'm ashamed to admit it.
> When I started buying Bosch, P-C, Hitachi routers, I realized just how
> all encompassing the Craftsman lie is.
>
> Drill. Almost any other manufacturer's drills (except B&D) were more
> compact, smoother running, and more powerful than any Sears drill I
> ever had my hands on.
>
> Circular saw. Bulky, underpowered. Compared to my P-C 347 and my P-C
> SawBoss, Craftsman saws are a joke. Even my throw-away Skils were
> better.
>
> Folks, they are not tools that any true professional that depends on
> their tools for a living would tolerate for very long. They have
> gimmicks like lights on drills, and rack and pinions on routers that
> seem important to the uninitiated (they're not) but also mask other
> shortcomings. Flash, not substance.
>
> They are not good value, unless you consider them as one or two job
> throw away tools. Sure you can make them last longer than that, but do
> you want to? If you've never used Porter-Cable, or Makita, or Hitachi,
> or Bosch tools, you may think the Sears are adequate. They are not.
>
> No one can defend Sears tools by comparison to any of the
> "professional" grade tools such as P-C, Makita, Hitachi, Bosch, Delta,
> Powermatic, General, etc. If they try, it's because they've never used
> any of them.
>
> Now there will be some responders who will talk about their particular
> Sears tool that they've had for years and can't kill. Fine. Even a
> stopped clock is right twice a day. But if you want long term comfort,
> power, reliability, precision, suitablilty for the task, etc., avoid
> Division 9 at Sears like the plague.
>
> Craftsman is not, and never has been, any better than the current
> Black & Decker/Skil level of homeowner tools. The possible exception
> (particularly because I value Charlie Self's opinion) is the new Sears
> cabinet saw recently introduced. For me however, it's long been too
> little and too late. I will never, EVER consider a Craftsman tool in
> any way again.
>
> And, yes, that includes hand tools. I've completely replaced all of my
> Craftsman screwdrivers with Klein. What a difference. The Craftsman
> chisels are gone; replaced by Sorby. The wrenches are slowly being
> replaced by Husky which feel better and look better.
>
> One day, I will be truly Craftsman free. And they earned it.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YP5jd.46225$EZ.38879@okepread07...


> I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming
> from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up
> until the early 80's.

I've reflected on this thought because I am in the right generation to
remember. It was Christmas of 1973 when I was married, no kids and we both
had good professional jobs. We were "rich" relatively speaking. I remember
going through the sears catalogue and marking page after page of things I
wanted for Christmas. My shop still has many of those items. The craftsman
socket set and wrenches are still excellent. The chisels are so-so. Tap
and Die set is still very good. The heavy duty hydraulic floor jack is still
heavy duty but lost a seal and needs repair.

But the power tools? Hmmm

Corded Electric Drill - died after 7 years in a disgraceful gear failure -
it should have lasted longer
Autoscroll saw - still working well, but does not compare to what's
available today
Circular saw - does not hold a candle to power and smoothness of my Dewalt
Pad sander - always was noisy and shook and generally horrible to use, but
still "works" if I am in masochistic mood
Variable high speed hand held grinder (Dremel tool on steroids) - Great
tool, always was and still is.
Bench grinder - works great but 7" non-standard wheels
"iron" compressor - quit due to some part failure - gave it to a friend who
fixed it for $15 and still going strong
air impact wrench - like new and works well
air ratchet - like new and works well

What's this mean? I think Craftsman tools had an aura, but when I compare
to what's available today, they were mediocre and some were very
proprietary. I don't resent it - just got educated and moved on.

Bob

>>
>> (BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)
>
> Why not include the hand tools? They are not as good as the older stuff
> either.
>
Ed - I held it to power tools because they seem to get the most comments
with the group. I don't think their hand tools have suffered as much but
their prices are too high. I get the same utility and warranty from Master
Mechanic wrenches at 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

I also agree that the same applies to B&D and others. Seems like Sears
takes the brunt.

> when lots of products, not just Craftsman, went down the tubes to MBAs
> with LBOs. RubberMaid >(

Clearly not confined to Craftsman. However, in my younger days Sears the
borg stores were less common. For a young startup, Sears offered a good
variety of tools and in a sense was a woodworking borg.

Granted there were industrial and tool stores available but many of us
hadn't discovered them yet..

Eugene <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>
>> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as
>>> important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.
>>
>> It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your
>> six screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head
>> bolt on your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles
>> away, quality suddenly becomes very important.
> I have a duplicate of most hand tools in a tool chest in my garage and
> stuffed in a tool bag inside my truck so if one were to break I have a
> spare.
>

I have a spare truck. That doesn't make me any happier when something
breaks, even if it were under warranty.

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Let me start by saying I am not trolling - I am curious. I am looking for
>opinions
>
>We see lots of opinions regarding tool brands here and Craftsman sticks out.
>It appears as though our opinions on Craftsman power tools run from very
>supportive to downright venomous.
>
>I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming
>from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up
>until the early 80's. A lot of the maintenance on these old machines
>amounted to replacing power cords and brushes.
>
>My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
>by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?
>

When I was growing up, and in fact, well into my marriage, Sears was
always the first place to look for *anything*.

So, powertools, hand held and floor standing were acquired from them
when I took an interest in woodworking (around 1980). The tools I
bought were acquired on a project by project basis. As my projects
grew more and more ambitious, the limitations of the tools became
apparent, and not only that, but *all* the hand held units either went
up in smoke or were had a flaw so grievous as to set it aside since it
was likely to spoil the work. Like the self adjusting router bit
depth.

To elaborate a bit on the "up in smoke" remark, I had a 1/3 sheet
sander that did an excellent job of holding the paper (better than
most new ones IMO) but the motor itself gave up when the insulation on
the windings burned and began smoking. The same happened when a
Craftsman circular saw I was using to rip 12/4 maple smoked so bad it
simply stopped being able to cut anything. And my jigsaw's switch
failed after only a couple of years of light use. I tended to avoid
using it 'cause it was a case of lots of the proper noises, but not
much on actual severing of wood fibers.

What did I learn? The hand power tools are too lightly built and
performance is marginal at best when used in a serious woodworking
hobby. By serious, I don't mean making pukey ducks, I mean armoires,
beds, tables & desks. Real furniture, not cub scout projects.

However, the two floorstanding Craftsman machines I had were/are good.
I replace the 6" jointer with a DJ-20, not because I became elitist,
but because my projects are simply too large for the relatively short
beds of that jointer. I still have and use the 10" cast iron top TS,
albeit with lots of modifications like a Biesemeyer fence and link
belt/steel pulleys. Perhaps without those modifications it'd be gone.
The stock fence was so bad it had just about made me give up on the
saw. I bought that saw around 1985.

In the end, Sears' policy of selling to a low price point taught me to
look elsewhere first for what I want. Some things I might still buy
on price first, but when it comes to other things, like tools, I check
the quality and performance first, price second.

Price always plays a role in my decisions, but is tempered by the
utility of the item. A cheap tool is no bargain if it can't reliably
do the task at hand without failing in the process. This applies
equally to brands like B&D and Skil. Craftsman is not alone in the
"also ran" category in my shop.

Serious projects need serious tools.

I don't resent it - just got educated and moved on.
>
> Bob

Well spoke, Bob. My experiences have been similar, if a little later.
I bought my first Craftsman power tool in 1986. It was a "2.25 HP"
circular saw, middle of their price range at the time, and on sale the
day I needed it. It had 1/16" end play in the shaft right out of the
box. But it cut like a champ when I used it on my first major
project, a deck for my parents house. I bought several more Craftsman
tools in the next few years, but quickly graduated to the top of their
consumer line on all subsequent purchases. Those tools served me well
on the occasional project the average handyman attempts. Then, I got
serious about woodworking and used that saw to build a shop. As my
skills grew, I could see the compromises that were made to make these
tools affordable for the typical homeowner, who might use them two
weekends a year.

If I had remained that typical homeowner, those Craftsman tools would
probably have survived to pass down to my grandchildren. But I
changed. I required more accuracy and finesse from my tools and
became more frequent in my use of them. Some died of overwork. Their
deaths were not mourned because by then I was ready to move up anyway.
Some refused to give up, but just weren't a joy to use anymore.
These I passed down to others, who thought they were great.

I don't use any Craftsman power tools anymore, and I don't recommend
them to those who are beginning to take up woodworking. But when that
typical homeowner asks me what to buy, I still send them to Sears.

I'm sure those who remember the days when the name Craftsman meant a
tool fit for a craftsman are right. The quality of Craftsman tools
has fallen since your Daddy's day. But what they forget is that the
prices have fallen too. That Craftsman saw your Daddy bought in the
50's probably cost him more than a day's wages. Today's saw is paid
for in less than half a day.

I think a woodworker from any previous age would be amazed at the
plethora of fine tools available to us from manufacturers such as
Porter Cable, Dewalt, Makita, Hitachi and others. And they would be
amazed at the quality of Craftsman tools too, considering what we pay
for them.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:13:21 +0000, LRod
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The possible exception
>(particularly because I value Charlie Self's opinion) is the new Sears
>cabinet saw recently introduced. For me however, it's long been too
>little and too late. I will never, EVER consider a Craftsman tool in
>any way again.


Maybe the machine wasn't set up properly, but one thing
I noticed on this saw is that the left wheel seemed to be
too far in from the front edge of the table.

patriarch wrote:

> Eugene <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as
>>>> important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.
>>>
>>> It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your
>>> six screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head
>>> bolt on your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles
>>> away, quality suddenly becomes very important.
>> I have a duplicate of most hand tools in a tool chest in my garage and
>> stuffed in a tool bag inside my truck so if one were to break I have a
>> spare.
>>
>
> I have a spare truck. That doesn't make me any happier when something
> breaks, even if it were under warranty.
Years ago a local ford dealer was giving away a festiva when you bought a
new f150. I suppose you could load up the festiva in the bed and have it
for a spare to drive to the parts store if you ever had a breakdown.
I have rarely had a craftsman took break, and then its usually a gimmick
tool like the extension bar with a plastic quick release button and the
plastic button broke so I traded it for normal one, or when I use a
screwdriver as a prybar, but I usually don't have any problems with them
otherwise.

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:00:34 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your six
>> screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head bolt on
>> your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles away,
>> quality
>> suddenly becomes very important.
>>
>Yes but there are other hand tools out there that duplicate the Craftsman
>life time warranty and 1/2 the price - example is Master Mechanic.

The lifetime warranty isn't about quality; it's about actuary.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Pardon error

> However, in my younger days the borg stores were less common. For a young
> startup, Sears offered a good variety of tools and in a sense was a
> woodworking borg.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 01:27:11 GMT, Larry Kraus
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And every time I change a bit, I wish they had a spindle lock that
>LOCKED and did not have to be held in while bracing the router
>against the torque of the wrench and keeping the bit at just the
>right position - I mean, I only have three hands!

I hate spindle locks. I have upgraded every router I own that has them
to a two wrench system.

If you have three hands you are perfect for a spindle lock. Otherwise,
as far as I'm concerned, I think they are the work of the devil.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

Ah, where to start? I guess the first place is with the myth that
Sears ever did make quality tools (I know Sears didn't make them, but
for simplicity, let's just use the phrase). I have more than a little
experience with Crafstman tools, and I know what I'm talking about.

I grew up in a woodworking/DIY household and I remember many, many
trips to Sears and visiting the tool department (9, for those of you
who wonder how Sears numbers their departments). Compared to the sorry
pieces of 3rd hand junk my father was using in his shop, some of those
tools looked positively magnificent. Perspective jolt: this was in the
'50s/'60s.

I remember well the Christmas my mother bought my father a set of
Craftsman power tools: saber saw (that's what we called a jig saw in
those days), drill, sheet sander. Admittedly, they had steel bodies,
but however robust they may have appeared, only one of them was still
in his shop when I cleaned it out after he died, and I'm not sure it
was working. I didn't even bother keeping it.

At one time my shop looked like a Sears catalog. Stupid? No. In the
'60s, '70s, and '80s there weren't the places to buy Delta,
Powermatic, and Porter-Cable tools like there are now. Makita and
Hitachi were still on the horizon. There was no internet. There were
precious few magaizines advertising them. Shoot, where I lived you
couldn't even buy hardwood. I never had a piece of real hardwood until
I was 30. (I can hear it now: you had softwood? We WISHED we had
softwood. We had to build bedroom suites out of cardboard and we were
grateful.)

I started out in 1972 with a Craftsman radial arm saw. Problems: well
documented lack of stability in alignment. Cheesy table to frame
attachment and fence clamp. My saw was one of the last with a solid
cast iron column; they subsequently built them with bolt-together
castings. It's waiting to be sold.

Around 1973 I bought a Craftsman drill press. It was okay. In fact it
had a couple of features that I really came to appreciate when it came
time to look for a replacement, as most Delta/PM/Jet didn't have them:
quill lock, light. That said, eventually some slop developed in the
quill--not axially; vertically. I tried and tried and tried to figure
out where it came from and how to fix it and couldn't I replaced it
with a Delta 17-925...with a quill lock. If I had to, I could lift the
Sears DP. The 17-925 is around 250 lbs.

Around 1974 I bought a Craftsman bandsaw. Problems: pain in the butt
one piece door that made blade changing tedious. Other than that this
was actually not too bad a tool. I replaced it after nearly 20 years
with a Delta 28-280. Same story as the one below about weight. It was
impossible for me to get the saw up on the stand by myself without a
block and tackle. And after a few times at the saw I could see there
was a world of difference between the saws.

A year later ('75) I bought a Craftsman jointer. I could adjust the
gibs on the infeed table perfectly square to the outfeed table OR I
could adjust the height of the table with the adjustment knob to
change the depth of cut. In years of trying to reengineer the thing,
and with a second table from Sears I was never able to make the thing
work like it was supposed to. I could edge joint boards reasonably
well, but forget about face jointing. If you think that Craftsman and
Delta are even remotely equivalent, I could lift the Sears jointer up
and down off its stand by myself with ease. I challenge you to try
that with a DJ15, much less a DJ20.

After initially building a lathe and never being satisfied with it, I
bought a Craftsman lathe. It's okay, but my Jet mini lathe (acquired
many years later) is twice the lathe, even at 1/3 the size. Also, in a
common theme with other Sears tools, all the attachments are an odd
size. Fortunately, that size is accommodated by most of the after
market manufacturers, unlike some of the other odd size selections in
Craftsman tools.

Table saw. Here we get to the heart of the myth that Craftsman used to
be something. My saw, obviously acquired used, is vintage 1955 or
thereabouts. It is essentially the same saw with respect to table and
innards as the saws sold right up to Emerson's ouster in the late
'90s. The fence rail *looked* better and I always thought had been a
long lamented victim of lowered specs to meet a price point until I
actually had it. What a piece of crap. I later added an aftermarket
fence which does a reasonable job.

The trunnions are some sort of non-cast iron metal. I don't think it's
quite pot metal, but then I'm not sure what that is anyway. They're
nowhere, no way near as substantial as even contractor saws by other
manufacturers, much less the redoubtable cabinet saws of
Delta/Powermatic/Jet. And any thought of robust construction is dashed
when you see and feel the sheet metal body that holds it all together.
Again, I can lift the saw up and down off the base by myself,
contrasted to the 400+ pounds of my Unisaw.

The miter slot anomaly of the Craftsman is legendary. They use a .750"
slot (with a .746" bar) where other manufacturers use a .750" bar in a
.755" slot. Sears advertises a "standard 3/8 x 3/4 miter slot", but
it's only standard in Sears' saws.

Belt sander. I can't remember when I bought this, but the tensioning
mechanism is a bastard set up if ever I saw one. I have to reengineer
the damn thing every time I change belts. Consequently, it doesn't see
much use. If I needed a belt sander any more than I do, I'd junk this
one and get a new P-C, Bosch, or Makita.

Jig saw. I fought and fought with this piece of crap for years. The
blades wouldn't stay straight and they wouldn't stay in place. Cuts
were a crap shoot every time. I thought it was the nature of the beast
(jig saw, not Craftsman) until I bought a Bosch. My god, what were
they (Sears) thinking?

Router. ARHA (Automatic Random Height Adjustment). Need I say more?
I've been bitten so many times by it that I'm ashamed to admit it.
When I started buying Bosch, P-C, Hitachi routers, I realized just how
all encompassing the Craftsman lie is.

Drill. Almost any other manufacturer's drills (except B&D) were more
compact, smoother running, and more powerful than any Sears drill I
ever had my hands on.

Circular saw. Bulky, underpowered. Compared to my P-C 347 and my P-C
SawBoss, Craftsman saws are a joke. Even my throw-away Skils were
better.

Folks, they are not tools that any true professional that depends on
their tools for a living would tolerate for very long. They have
gimmicks like lights on drills, and rack and pinions on routers that
seem important to the uninitiated (they're not) but also mask other
shortcomings. Flash, not substance.

They are not good value, unless you consider them as one or two job
throw away tools. Sure you can make them last longer than that, but do
you want to? If you've never used Porter-Cable, or Makita, or Hitachi,
or Bosch tools, you may think the Sears are adequate. They are not.

No one can defend Sears tools by comparison to any of the
"professional" grade tools such as P-C, Makita, Hitachi, Bosch, Delta,
Powermatic, General, etc. If they try, it's because they've never used
any of them.

Now there will be some responders who will talk about their particular
Sears tool that they've had for years and can't kill. Fine. Even a
stopped clock is right twice a day. But if you want long term comfort,
power, reliability, precision, suitablilty for the task, etc., avoid
Division 9 at Sears like the plague.

Craftsman is not, and never has been, any better than the current
Black & Decker/Skil level of homeowner tools. The possible exception
(particularly because I value Charlie Self's opinion) is the new Sears
cabinet saw recently introduced. For me however, it's long been too
little and too late. I will never, EVER consider a Craftsman tool in
any way again.

And, yes, that includes hand tools. I've completely replaced all of my
Craftsman screwdrivers with Klein. What a difference. The Craftsman
chisels are gone; replaced by Sorby. The wrenches are slowly being
replaced by Husky which feel better and look better.

One day, I will be truly Craftsman free. And they earned it.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:24:53 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> (BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)
>
>Why not include the hand tools? They are not as good as the older stuff
>either.

The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as
important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.

>Actually, a lot of tools today are not as well made (durable) as they were
>years ago. Black & Decker used to be a respected name, Skil made its
>reputation with the circular saw for the masses; now it is a WalMart
>supplier. Sears made a decision to sell high volume at a certain price
>point. Some of their stuff is OK, but a lot is mediocre. Not knowing
>sometimes, I tend to avoid it all now.
>
>Yes, I remember when Craftsman was respected and used by real craftsman.
>Right along side B & D and Disston saws. Life changes. .
>

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Let me start by saying I am not trolling - I am curious. I am looking for
>opinions and if the subject bothers you, move on.
>
>We see lots of opinions regarding tool brands here and Craftsman sticks out.
>It appears as though our opinions on Craftsman power tools run from very
>supportive to downright venomous. Personally, as I read some of these posts
>I try to imagine who sent them - particularly in terms of experience and
>age.
>
>I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming
>from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up
>until the early 80's. In fact some of us older geezers might still have
>70's vintage routers, circular saws, sanders or other machines that are
>still serving us well. A lot of the maintenance on these old machines
>amounted to replacing power cords and brushes. We also remember when it
>took three guys to move their cast-iron winged table saws, drill presses or
>old jointers.
>
>My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
>by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?
>
>(BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)
>
IMHO, you not only get what you pay for, but research is important, as
we all see here with folks asking opinions here before buying..
This has ALWAYS been a key to buying Craftsman power tools,
appliances, etc... (been buying there since they came out with
ergonomic rocks to pound sticks with)
Since they have never (afaik) made their own products, you have to
know who makes each one for them..
I have a Craftsman biscuit joiner... go to sears.com and look at the
picture... hmm... rack & pinion fence... I thought only Dewalt had
that.... OH!

I just got a sears 1/2" cordless drill.. might be skill, might be
dewalt... no idea, since it was a present and I didn't shop for it,
but the one I was going to get (3/8" at lower volts) was a Skill, not
my favorite drill maker..

OTHO, my Orbital 1/3 sheet sander from sears is a skill, and I like
it...

I still have my over-worked sears router that either wife #1 or 2 gave
me a LOT of years ago... don't know who made that, but it's still on
it's original bushes and runs great..

As others have said, Sears and maybe Monkey Ward were the choices for
most folks before Harbor Freight, Home Depot, etc., etc. changed the
way people bought tools and hardware..

Maybe the bottom line is that a lot of the folks in the wreck are used
to high end tools and you don't go to sears for high end..

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Let me start by saying I am not trolling - I am curious. I am looking for
>opinions and if the subject bothers you, move on.
>
>We see lots of opinions regarding tool brands here and Craftsman sticks out.
>It appears as though our opinions on Craftsman power tools run from very
>supportive to downright venomous. Personally, as I read some of these posts
>I try to imagine who sent them - particularly in terms of experience and
>age.
>
>I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming
>from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up
>until the early 80's. In fact some of us older geezers might still have
>70's vintage routers, circular saws, sanders or other machines that are
>still serving us well. A lot of the maintenance on these old machines
>amounted to replacing power cords and brushes. We also remember when it
>took three guys to move their cast-iron winged table saws, drill presses or
>old jointers.
>
>My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
>by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?
>
>(BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)
>
One of my advertising professors in the 60s described Sears as
America's leading source of second-rate goods, including tools. And he
was right -- in the 60s. Sears brands were never best quality, but
they were adequate for the average woodworker.

Back in the 50s my father bought a Craftsman table saw and that's what
we used for years. Not spectacular, not super-accurate, but good,
solid performance.

By the time I started buying my own tools in the early 1970s this had
changed significantly. I still bought a lot of Sears stuff (because I
was stuck in the middle of 200 miles of stinking desert with a Sears
store in town), but the quality had definitely deteriorated.

By the 80s and 90s, fagetaboutit!

One of the reasons for the outrage at Sears is that the company has
been living off its reputation for the last 20 years. There are still
a lot of people who think Sears is a good place to buy power tools
because of word of mouth based on its old reputation. Consequently
Sears still sucks in many of the ignorant.

--RC


That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin.
-- Wiz Zumwalt

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 09:10:51 -0600, RonB wrote:

> My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
> by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?

I noticed the pattern. I agree. If we're not quite so old as
to have Depression memories, we do remember the "greed is good" old days
when lots of products, not just Craftsman, went down the tubes to MBAs
with LBOs. RubberMaid >(

Maybe Craftsman is getting heat generated by disgust at the whole
phenomenon.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"

Edwin Pawlowski did say:

> Why not include the hand tools? They are not as good as the older stuff
> either.

My only complaint with Craftsman hand tools is their thickness. Snap-ons
will get into tight places that a Craftsman socket won't. Not
that big of a deal for us amateurs, but for pro mechanics it's a
real issue.
Regarding durability; I think the pro tools are made from
better alloys, but since they're thinner are about as durable as the good
Craftsmans. The lifetime replacement warranty on any good tool kind of
makes it a toss-up for durability.

--
New project = new tool. Hard and fast rule.

LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>...
>Router. ARHA (Automatic Random Height Adjustment). Need I say more?
>I've been bitten so many times by it that I'm ashamed to admit it.
>...
>Folks, they are not tools that any true professional that depends on
>their tools for a living would tolerate for very long. They have
>gimmicks like lights on drills, and rack and pinions on routers that
>seem important to the uninitiated (they're not) but also mask other
>shortcomings. Flash, not substance.

These were the worst and the best points of my Craftsman power tool
experiences. That damn router destroyed many hours of work when it
randomly decided to push the bit out a little further. But I still
miss the built in light when doing handheld work with one of my Bosch
or Porter Cable routers. And every time I change a bit, I wish they
had a spindle lock that LOCKED and did not have to be held in while
bracing the router against the torque of the wrench and keeping the
bit at just the right position - I mean, I only have three hands!

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:30:25 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Actually a more scathing review of the older stuff than I was expecting.

Thanks...I think. I feel very strongly that the concept that the
Craftsman of yore was good stuff is fantasy at best. Particularly
since I lived the most part of that time. It wasn't...ever, to my
knowledge. That, of course, is assuming that the standard of
comparison is Delta or the like. And of course the argument is made
that Delta isn't what it used to be, either. However, I feel safe in
saying that Delta at its worst was/is light years ahead of Craftsman
at its best.

>I do have a couple of the older hand power tools that keep going

As I said, I knew someone would say that. However, the Craftsman hand
power tools, when compared even with contemporary brands were clunky,
and fluffed with "features" that serious users didn't need or want. I
can't remember a Craftsman tool that felt good in the hands like a
Milwaukee drill, or a Bosch jigsaw, or a Porter-Cable circular saw.

>and a Craftsman drill press that will probably be sold at my estate sale.

Mine was an okay tool until the spindle slop started, but I'm also not
a heavy user. The mass is again a big thing with it.

>I, like you, used to just go to Sears when I needed a tool - no more.

I was in one a couple of months ago. Bought a P-C 347 on clearance. I
was so unused to getting a Sears bill I was ready to dispute it when
the purchase showed up on the account.

>At the risk of starting a real flame, I believe they continue to go
>downhill.

Well, they're certainly not starting up the use of Meehanite cast
iron, that's for sure. Ryobi plastic from South Carolina is the best
you'll see from them, at least in the Craftsman line.

However, let's put this all in perspective. We here on the wreck are
not Sears' market. I had a discussion one time with a friend who was
an occasional DIYer and who was talking about getting a jig saw to do
some paneling. I had just gotten my Bosch and was extolling the
virtues. He asked how much and when I told him $150 he blanched. He
said he could buy a $30 saw, do a satisfactory job on the panelling
and throw it away FIVE times for what I paid for the Bosch.

I couldn't argue with him. He had no sense of what the feel of a
quality tool in one's hand meant because it wasn't important to him.
HE and those like him are Sears' market. Consequently, from our point
of view, Sears will continue to go downhill.

But my most important point is about the myth that Craftsman was ever
really anything different than that. They NEVER were competition for
Delta or Powermatic, Porter-Cable or Milwaukee.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

>>
>> My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed
>> by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?

========================
I am in my 60's so I guess I am qualified as an older guy.... I ahev
also NOT read a single reply to your post...(yet)

I would NOT under any circumstances open my wallet for any Craftsman
power tool manufactured after 1975 ....PERIOD !

Having said that I equipted my shop in the mid to late 60's and almost
every tool I bought was Craftsman.... (sears Credit what can I say)

Anyway I still have my original floor model drill press and it has
absolutely been a workhorse ...replaced the belt once in all that time
and more then a few light bulbs...but nothing else...

I still have my original Radial Arm Saw that I now use only as a cut
off saw... but its fine ...have not moved it off 90 degress in 25
years or so....

My 6" belt/disk sander still works just fine...although I have had to
play with the tracking mechanism more times then I care to admit and I
can not remember the last time I even had a disk on the the
thing...little or no need for it for my projects...

I also still use my 12 inch Band Saw too....BUT I am not about to
claim that it is anything more then marginal at best... does what I
want but does need to be replaced with something larger and more
powerful...timberwolf blades make it marginal...

Gone FOR years are my original Lathe, Table saw, & Jointer
All were marginal at best... (this was 60's equiptment BTW )

I do not feel I was betrayed by Sears....(well it would be nice if
they still had repair departments in their stores or would sell you a
3 dollar belt without charging you 15 bucks to ship it... )...

Just my opinion...

Bob Griffiths

.

I will also add that a lot of us older guys got started with Craftsman
because the tools were readily visible and available at Sears. This was
before the local borg offered a dozen colors and brands under one roof.