Is this a Safe Table Saw Operation?

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:58:06 +0000, Edwin Pawlowski wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):>
> What you need is a better push stick. Or should I say, push "device".
>
> I have no trouble at all putting that through using my push device that has
> a long flat bottom to hold the wood in place. Picture the handle of a hand
> saw withthe hand grip hole. I traced the saw handle on a piece of 3/4"
> plywood, made a flat bottom about 6" long with a 1/2" catch on the back.
> Good grip, good control, lots of safety.
>
>

Pretty much what I was thunking.

The fire-poker / sleeping-dog-prodder push sticks are a smack in the face
waiting to happen.

Push device should be big enough to:
-a push along,
-b hold workpiece down
-c keep fingers high enough so that _when_ something goes wrong, they are
_still_ out of cut range.

The _when_ should cover things like being suddenly startled by loud bangs,
phone vibrating, swmbo tapping you on the shoulder, cramp, wasp sting,
kickback, losing your footing or fainting and pitching forward, plagues of
frogs etc...

otherwise, use an Incra or similar and make the accurate measurement on the
"wrong" (waste) side of the blade from very oversize stock

Zero-clearance blade slot makes a HUGE difference in my limited experience.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 04:00:51 +0000, Leon wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> Hummmmm , Left thumb, I had just finished cutting a dado and had turned
> the saw off. I then proceeded to remove the fence, swung my left hand
> directly over the top of the blade as it was coasting down. Wham! It took
> me one year to finally realize what had happened when I almost did it again.
> I too initially thought it was a kick back but there was no damaged wood.
> Funny how your mind stops remembering when you get injured.

I've just changed my loud. instant-stopping FEPOS benchtop saw for a much
better contractor's (site) saw with a 315mm blade, no brake and a near silent
motor...

This thing takes about a minute to spin down and of course would be illegal
if new (U.K.)

Respect. Fear.


Patience.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote

Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg

(you may note a small drive-by..)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I notice that the table saw fence has a Canadian flag on it.

Is this a socialist state reqiurement? <G>

On Jan 20, 3:07=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On Jan 20, 1:18 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
>
> > Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are =
two
> > different matters. ...
>
> Both of these are ripping operations. =A0The 5" length is plenty long
> enough for bearing against the fence imo.
>
> I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
> else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.
>
> 5" is way too short to safely rip if the board is 5" wide.

Nope.... :)

Somewhere over that I'd start thinking about it, but w/ that much
bearing surface for the fence on ply I got's no problem w/ only an
inch or so cutoff...just where I'd balk I'd have to have a piece in
hand to see; I can't really say otomh what seems completely wrong.
2-3 ft, sure. Under 1, I'm not so sure...I'm sure a piece of roughly
that size I'll have done quite a number times in 40 years but can't
place a specific piece...

Again, my $0.02 is "what floats yore bote...if you're uncomfortable,
do some other way..." :)

--

On Jan 22, 8:27=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>
> > (you may note a small drive-by..)
>
> Duly noted ... one of these days, maybe, but let me get the last one out =
of
> college first before succumbing to that particular compulsion.
>
> ITMT, you and Morris just keep on providing the vicarious thrills ...
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I was talking about my blow gun.. from the SnapOn truck. Okay... not
really...

Lee Michaels wrote:

>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg
>
> (you may note a small drive-by..)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I notice that the table saw fence has a Canadian flag on it.
>
> Is this a socialist state reqiurement? <G>

Yep, Bald Eagles are push sticks.
;-)
--
Froz...

2 feet longer than a d00tchie.

On Jan 20, 5:21=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> In a word, no.
> Make a crosscut sled for this type of cut - you'll like it. It's
> stable, and easier to measure and control.
>
> In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
> length of the blade is asking for trouble.
>
> shelly

I would agree with this. The sled is the way to go and you will
always have it. My read on what the OP said tells me he is using one
of those push sticks with the little notch on the end, which is fine
for this with the guard in place. But if it isn't then he should have
a shoe type of push device.

Take this advice from somebody that did cut the end of his finger off,
the day I did it the did not feel safe doing what I was doing, but
could not find an intellectual reason that anything would go wrong, so
I did it. Things happened so fast after that I still can't believe
it. Doing what you described just brought back that same feeling, I
even went out to the table saw (uplugged) and simulated it. There is
no way I would put my hand into that situation. Make the sled, it
will be one of the most used tools in your shop.

-Jim

Leon wrote:

>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Ix%[email protected]...
>
>>>Damn
>
>
>>
>> I said that I always keep my eye off on the blade when it is spinning.
>
>
> Correction,
>
> I said that I always keep my eye on the blade when it is
> spinning

Try using a blindfold.
;-)
--
Froz...

2 feet longer than a d00tchie.

Leon wrote:
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
>> already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
>> skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
>> cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
>> self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
>> firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
>> kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
>> pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback,
>> and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a
>> pusher even on 30" or wider rips.
>>
>>
>
> You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
> firmly in place". Accidents typically happen when all does not go well.
> Work around a TS long enough and you will eventually realize that all does
> not go well 100% of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the
> fence for stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet
> panels I use the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is
> greater than the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do
> however know what can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel
> tightly planted against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight
> on top of the panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am
> prepared for the consequences should the panel bind.
>
> No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
> increases the odds of having an accident.
>
>
A beginner,
When you cut plywood you should only use the fence when the width
against the fence is greater the the length being cut. Does this not
depend on the actual measurements? ie
5" X 3" ( 3" on the fence cut 5" ) would be unsafe?
5' X 3' ( 3' on the fence cut 5') would be unsafe?

On Jan 20, 10:07=A0am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) =A0the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

If you asked then you already are unsure and therefore unsafe.

I use one similar to this:
http://www.scrgeek.com/pics/ww/jigs/jigEdge4.jpg

Try different ones cut from plywood and see what you like. I never
liked the dinky orange stick that came with my saw and only used it
once or twice.
http://www.ptreeusa.com/Peach%20Graphics/push_stick.jpg

try a google image search
http://images.google.com/images?hl=3Den&rlz=3D1T4ADBS_enUS259US259&q=3Dhome=
+made+push+stick

On Jan 20, 1:18=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are tw=
o
> different matters. =A0...

Both of these are ripping operations. The 5" length is plenty long
enough for bearing against the fence imo.

I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.

--

On Jan 21, 6:44 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I NEVER use a push stick, they scare me to death. I always apply downward
> pressure, typically I use a Gripper or a home made hold down devise with a
> hook on the rear.

I was using "push stick" as a generic term for anything in between
your hand and the work. And I don't care how fancy it is, it can't
stop the wood from bowing after it's cut. You may be able to keep it
down to prevent the kickback with the gripper or whatever, but I
decided it's just not worth it.

>
> > The biggest mistake I see people make is to just fixate on what is
> > happening at the cut and ignore what is happening at the fence. Get
> > your hands out of the path of the cut and the blade will do its job
> > just fine without you staring at it, as long as you do your job of
> > feeding the stock properly.
>
> Yeah I used to think that way, I always keep my eye on the blade when it is
> spinning. My lesson 20 years ago taught me that any thing can happen when
> you are not paying attention to the blade.

I didn't say ignore the blade, I said not to be fixated on it. You
can even be staring at the damn blade and watch your hand go right
into it before you realize what you just did. It's not enough to be
looking, you have to have your brain turned on too.

-Kevin

In a word, no.
Make a crosscut sled for this type of cut - you'll like it. It's
stable, and easier to measure and control.

In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
length of the blade is asking for trouble.

shelly

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?



I concur with Leon, ... Not safe!

A while back I attempted something similar with a small piece of wood, - had
done this many times before, - this time I nicked the end of my middle
finger on my left hand on the saw blade.
Still too sore to fret a guitar string. Laziness and stupidity on my part.

Don't do it. : )

Robatoy wrote:

> Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg

Not bad, but what I really like is your auxillary fence...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In article
<71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

If in doubt, don't!

On Jan 20, 2:18 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:53a2512f-f2aa-472e-980a-ebce5e74cbea@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
> > doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
> > will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
> > have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
> > think this unsafe I have no idea.
>
> Reread your first sentence.

Reread my second sentence.

> > How did you rip the other piece to
> > 4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
> > one is freaking you out.
>
> Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
> different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the piece
> of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
> fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever reason,
> and being thrown back at you.

If the piece is substantially wider than it is long, then absolutely
that is a high risk cut. I was watching the show "Holmes on Holmes"
once, and they were cutting short lengths of the wood I beams to use
as blocking. So they wanted to notch the top and bottom to fit
between the joists without any gaps. They had the new guy doing it,
and he was doing it with a circular saw. And Mr Holmes wasn't
satisfied with the results, so he shows the new guy how to do it. So
he proceeds to go to the table saw and run them vertically through
with just the fence. So, 1.5" against the fence, 15" or so wide. And
of course standing right behind it. How this guy still has all his
body parts I don't know.

But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.

I do often use a procedure for narrow short pieces that would get
people even more freaked out. I bring the blade all the way up, go in
half way, back out, flip end for end, finish the cut, back out again.
At this point you're going "No no no! never back out of a cut!" but
the problem with backing out is that you're bringing the wood back
into the back teeth of the blade, begging it to pick up the wood and
have a kickback. But with what I am doing the back teeth are never
involved in the cut at all, which for these small pieces I would just
as soon avoid entirely no matter what device you have to help you.
When you get into cutting narrow strips the wood wants to bow on you
at least a little bit an awful lot of the time, and I don't want that
happening beneath a pushing device where I can't see it. I watch
what the wood is doing and if it starts to warp I just kill the saw
and wait for it to stop. I have a backwards push stick I use to pull
the wood straight back. By never involving the back teeth at all I
feel it's safer.

-Kevin

On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea. How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.

-Kevin

On Jan 22, 8:30=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
> > If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
> > alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. =A0Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>
> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg

(you may note a small drive-by..)

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not!

If your hand has to go between the blade and the fence, it is not safe with
that narrow of a cut.

You should be using your miter gauge or a miter sled to cut the 5" square
piece of wood. Any piece of wood that is being cut with a fence and is
close to being square increases your chance of kick back. The smaller that
pipe of wood or panel the more likely.

That said, wood can be cut successfully in many unsafe ways but you need to
be aware of the risks associated with those ways and let your gut over ride
any thoughts if tells you that you about do something unsafe.

On Jan 20, 4:15 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message

> >> Reread your first sentence.
>
> > Reread my second sentence.
>
> I was answering your question/puzzled comment, not looking for an answer.

No, you were being a smartass, and I responded by being a smartass
too.

> > But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
> > People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
> > the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
> > problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
> > a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.
>
> Ok, you are missing the point, I think, Length is not so much a problem
> until the width begins to "approach" the same measurment as the length.
> This increases the likely hood of the piece being able to spin/go in a
> different direction other than perfectly parallel to the fence.

By your rule it's unsafe to rip a 20x20 piece of ply to 19x20, which
is nonsense. Length has something to do with it. At some point it's
long enough to not make much difference, until it's big enough that
the fence not being long enough and being too awkward to maneuver
takes over. At some point it's too short to not be safe regardless.
I totally agree with the instinct of the OP to say this is in my gray
area, stop and ask questions.


> How long have you been using a TS????

Never fails. Keep on doing what works for you. Don't assume I'm an
idiot because I do it in a way outside your experience.

-Kevin

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
>> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
>> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
>> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
>> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
>> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
>> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
>> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
>> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
>> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
>> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>>
>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
> Not safe. You may get away with it 500 times, but it may also bite you
> the next time. Too close for me.
>
> What you need is a better push stick. Or should I say, push "device".
>
> I have no trouble at all putting that through using my push device that
> has a long flat bottom to hold the wood in place. Picture the handle of a
> hand saw withthe hand grip hole. I traced the saw handle on a piece of
> 3/4" plywood, made a flat bottom about 6" long with a 1/2" catch on the
> back. Good grip, good control, lots of safety.

Maybe I'm not visualizing the cut the right way... the end piece will be
that plywood piece 4" by 5", right? In general, it sounds like a cut I'd be
comfortable with. I've also made pushblocks like the one Edwin described,
with sacrificial surfaces that could be sawed into. The main thing is to
either have the surface glued on, or screwed in a way such that it is not in
line with the blade.

Ed

-MIKE- wrote:

> I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
> hands away from a cutter.
>
> But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
> for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
> body parts a certain direction.

In the scenario described I'd use my hand (4" is lots of clearance), but
I'd hang a few fingers over the fence to make it harder for my hand to
be pulled towards the blade.

Combined with the guard, I'd do this cut carefully but I wouldn't feel
particularly unsafe.

Chris

"Keith nuttle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> A beginner,
> When you cut plywood you should only use the fence when the width against
> the fence is greater the the length being cut. Does this not depend on
> the actual measurements? ie
> 5" X 3" ( 3" on the fence cut 5" ) would be unsafe?
> 5' X 3' ( 3' on the fence cut 5') would be unsafe?


I think you are on track if I read you correctly. Basically, think which
orientation the stock is in and how the blade would have more leverage to
pull the edge against the fence away from the fence. If that happens
kick back is almost inevitable. The smaller the piece the greater the
risk.

On Jan 20, 10:07=A0am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) =A0the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

Grrrripper table saw accessory.
Best store bought push stick thing-a-ma-jig ever.
Robb

On Jan 22, 9:38 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Correct, you did not say ignore the blade nor did I indicate that you said
> that. I said that I always keep my eye [on] the blade when it is
> spinning. If you are set up properly and taking prudent precautions you
> should not have to worry about other areas of the saw.

I disagree. You can easily come off the fence at the back and not
realize it if you don't have a splitter, which isn't possible on every
cut. It may not necessarily cause an incident, but it's sure going
to ruin the stock. If the stock is thin it can bow significantly
before a splitter can do anything. With the proper precautions you
can hopefully prevent any incident from causing you harm, but you
don't necessarily prevent the incident from occurring in the first
place, and once things get out of whack anything can happen and you
don't have time to react to it. It's always better to prevent it from
ever starting to happen at all, and you do that by being aware of
everything that is going on and using all of your senses. You can
often see the problems starting to happen in time to correct it, if
you are paying attention. If you are only looking in one different
spot, then it's just going to happen in an instant and you may very
well both have no idea what actually caused it and assume it could not
have been prevented. I'm not saying every incident is preventable, we
all make mistakes and sometimes unforeseeable things go wrong. So I
am not saying prevention makes safety precautions unnecessary, just
that we don't want to fall back on the last line of defense if we
don't have to.

-Kevin

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:99e25a58-c364-4f2f-add2-a36223d1e6a1@p23g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 22, 9:38 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I disagree. You can easily come off the fence at the back and not
> realize it if you don't have a splitter, which isn't possible on every
> cut. It may not necessarily cause an incident, but it's sure going
> to ruin the stock.

Ok, I'd much much much rather ruin the stock then my hand. I'll keep my eye
on the blade.


If the stock is thin it can bow significantly
> before a splitter can do anything. With the proper precautions you
> can hopefully prevent any incident from causing you harm, but you
> don't necessarily prevent the incident from occurring in the first
> place, and once things get out of whack anything can happen and you
> don't have time to react to it.

If you are watching the blade you can simply stop feeding and turn the saw
off, I did this routinely before adding a splitter.


It's always better to prevent it from
> ever starting to happen at all, and you do that by being aware of
> everything that is going on and using all of your senses. You can
> often see the problems starting to happen in time to correct it, if
> you are paying attention. If you are only looking in one different
> spot, then it's just going to happen in an instant and you may very
> well both have no idea what actually caused it and assume it could not
> have been prevented.

If you know what you are doing, you know what can cause a problem. Perhaps
you don't to this yet but reviewing what can happen and preparing can cut
down significantly on the unexpected. My number one priority it to keep
from getting cut again. Me keeping my eyes on the spinning blade has been
very successful for the last 20 years and not every cut has been text book
smooth. I have had several incidents for one reason or another, a majority
of the time the stock was the cause, and I so far I have been able to
controll the unwanted reaction.



I'm not saying every incident is preventable, we
> all make mistakes and sometimes unforeseeable things go wrong. So I
> am not saying prevention makes safety precautions unnecessary, just
> that we don't want to fall back on the last line of defense if we
> don't have to.


We agree.

"Knotbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:98cfbe0a-860b-44a2-bd11-47f4a42eed45@q37g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

Grrrripper table saw accessory.
Best store bought push stick thing-a-ma-jig ever.
Robb

Anybody run a Gripper into the blade? I'm wondering if they explode like the
plastic push sticks that come (or used to come??) with Delta and Jet
tools...

John

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>
>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>
> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>


I see you posting a lot in the last couple of days. Are you back at home or
using that new fangled phone in the field? LOL

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How did you rip the other piece to
>> 4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
>> one is freaking you out.
>>
>
> Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
> different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the
> piece of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use
> the fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever
> reason, and being thrown back at you. The guard "will not" prevent this,
> guards "do not" prevent kick back when short pieces are being cut.

If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback, and
control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a pusher
even on 30" or wider rips.

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?
It has a good chance of changing the number of fingers on your hand...

I have a sled which I would use for this purpose. Neither of my hands would
be very close to the saw blade while I am using the sled.

Jim

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Ix%[email protected]...

>>Damn


>
> I said that I always keep my eye off on the blade when it is spinning.


Correction,

I said that I always keep my eye on the blade when it is
spinning

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not safe. You may get away with it 500 times, but it may also bite you the
next time. Too close for me.

What you need is a better push stick. Or should I say, push "device".

I have no trouble at all putting that through using my push device that has
a long flat bottom to hold the wood in place. Picture the handle of a hand
saw withthe hand grip hole. I traced the saw handle on a piece of 3/4"
plywood, made a flat bottom about 6" long with a 1/2" catch on the back.
Good grip, good control, lots of safety.

diggerop wrote:
> "Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
>> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
>> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
>> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
>> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
>> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
>> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
>> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
>> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
>> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
>> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>>
>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
>
>
> I concur with Leon, ... Not safe!
>
> A while back I attempted something similar with a small piece of wood, -
> had done this many times before, - this time I nicked the end of my
> middle finger on my left hand on the saw blade.
> Still too sore to fret a guitar string. Laziness and stupidity on my part.
>
> Don't do it. : )

I would not feel comfortable making that cut, I'd use a sled. If the
piece has to be *exactly* the same width, cut it a tad over sized and
use a hand plane to trim it to width.

Greg M

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2b30062d-a8fa-489e-926f-9c0036d54908@r27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 21, 6:44 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>>
>> > The biggest mistake I see people make is to just fixate on what is
>> > happening at the cut and ignore what is happening at the fence. Get
>> > your hands out of the path of the cut and the blade will do its job
>> > just fine without you staring at it, as long as you do your job of
>> > feeding the stock properly.
>>
>> Yeah I used to think that way, I always keep my eye on the blade when it
>> is
>> spinning. My lesson 20 years ago taught me that any thing can happen
>> when
>> you are not paying attention to the blade.
>
> I didn't say ignore the blade, I said not to be fixated on it. You
> can even be staring at the damn blade and watch your hand go right
> into it before you realize what you just did. It's not enough to be
> looking, you have to have your brain turned on too.
>
> -Kevin
>

Correct, you did not say ignore the blade nor did I indicate that you said
that. I said that I always keep my eye off on the blade when it is
spinning. If you are set up properly and taking prudent precautions you
should not have to worry about other areas of the saw.

I totally agree that you can be staring at the blade and watch your hand go
right into it before you realize what you did. And, it is pretty simple to
realize that having said that, that not watching the blade would increase
the chance of your hand doing the same.

That sounds like a pretty simple analysis but accidents happen in the
simplest of situations. You cannot be too careful.

"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
> already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
> skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
> cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
> self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
> firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
> kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
> pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback,
> and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a
> pusher even on 30" or wider rips.
>
>

You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
firmly in place". Accidents typically happen when all does not go well.
Work around a TS long enough and you will eventually realize that all does
not go well 100% of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the
fence for stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet
panels I use the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is
greater than the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do
however know what can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel
tightly planted against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight
on top of the panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am
prepared for the consequences should the panel bind.

No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
increases the odds of having an accident.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jan 20, 2:18 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:53a2512f-f2aa-472e-980a-ebce5e74cbea@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
>> > doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
>> > will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
>> > have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
>> > think this unsafe I have no idea.
>>
>> Reread your first sentence.
>
> Reread my second sentence.

I was answering your question/puzzled comment, not looking for an answer.


>
>> > How did you rip the other piece to
>> > 4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
>> > one is freaking you out.
>>
>> Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are
>> two
>> different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the
>> piece
>> of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
>> fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever
>> reason,
>> and being thrown back at you.
>

>
> But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
> People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
> the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
> problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
> a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.

Ok, you are missing the point, I think, Length is not so much a problem
until the width begins to "approach" the same measurment as the length.
This increases the likely hood of the piece being able to spin/go in a
different direction other than perfectly parallel to the fence.


>
> I do often use a procedure for narrow short pieces that would get
> people even more freaked out. I bring the blade all the way up, go in
> half way, back out, flip end for end, finish the cut, back out again.
> At this point you're going "No no no! never back out of a cut!" but
> the problem with backing out is that you're bringing the wood back
> into the back teeth of the blade, begging it to pick up the wood and
> have a kickback. But with what I am doing the back teeth are never
> involved in the cut at all, which for these small pieces I would just
> as soon avoid entirely no matter what device you have to help you.
> When you get into cutting narrow strips the wood wants to bow on you
> at least a little bit an awful lot of the time, and I don't want that
> happening beneath a pushing device where I can't see it. I watch
> what the wood is doing and if it starts to warp I just kill the saw
> and wait for it to stop. I have a backwards push stick I use to pull
> the wood straight back. By never involving the back teeth at all I
> feel it's safer.

How long have you been using a TS????

dpb wrote:
> On Jan 20, 9:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
>> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
>> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
>> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
>> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
>> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
>> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
>> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
>> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
>> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
>> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>>
>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
> I see nothing wrong with the operation and do similar operations
> routinely -- the bearing side against the fence is long enough that
> the prohibition against crosscutting w/ the fence in place isn't a
> problem; you're actually making a rip cut albeit on a (relatively)
> short piece of stock.
>
> If you're uncomfortable w/ doing it by hand and/or w/ a conventional
> dead cat, I'd suggest making a wide push stick (say 3") that would
> give more stability. The commercially available "Gripper" would be a
> model...

Pushing it through by hand? Not safe in the least - major clenching of
the sphincter muscle. The "Gripper" is a great tool for this operation,
and I've used it to make many cuts similar to the one described and it's
been a breeze. I'd still be sure to use a splitter or riving knife
though, and keep constant pressure downward and towards the fence until
you've made it all the way past the blade. One of those long and tall
push blocks with a through handle and a good clean rubber mating surface
would be decent second choice. A push stick would be out of the
question; I hate those things.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jan 20, 11:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I've been around table saws for 15 years or so, and I began doing it
> that way out of experience a few years ago. I don't expect to
> convert anyone to my way of doing it, but I maintain that it in that
> situation it's safer to back out than to go through. Longer pieces I
> do at the band saw, and I would do the short ones there too if I
> didn't feel it was safe.

I felt perfectly safe when I cut the end of my thumb off 20 years ago. I
had completed cutting a dado and had turned the saw off. You never know
when an accident can happen.

>
>> The OP sounds
>> inexperienced and the best approach here is to warn against an unsafe
>> procedure rather than give him a false sense of security and risk being
>> injured. With time he will learn through close calls and hopefully only
>> close calls that the unexpected can happen at any moment. Experience
>> will
>> help him recognize those times and how to better deal with the task.
>
> The safety rules are good, but it's kind of like the building code.
> You can follow all the rules and still make a crappy house. If you
> understand what's behind the rule then you can understand when you're
> in a situation where the rule isn't going to cover it. I have a scar
> to remind me that using pushing sticks doesn't guarantee you're safe.

I NEVER use a push stick, they scare me to death. I always apply downward
pressure, typically I use a Gripper or a home made hold down devise with a
hook on the rear.


> The biggest mistake I see people make is to just fixate on what is
> happening at the cut and ignore what is happening at the fence. Get
> your hands out of the path of the cut and the blade will do its job
> just fine without you staring at it, as long as you do your job of
> feeding the stock properly.

Yeah I used to think that way, I always keep my eye on the blade when it is
spinning. My lesson 20 years ago taught me that any thing can happen when
you are not paying attention to the blade.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:30:45 -0600, Swingman wrote:

> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>
>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>
> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg

This one actually works well... and is a conversation piece too.

<http://www.whipplesargent.com/whipjig5.pdf>

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jan 22, 8:27 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Robatoy" wrote
>>
>> > (you may note a small drive-by..)
>>
>> Duly noted ... one of these days, maybe, but let me get the last one out
>> of
>> college first before succumbing to that particular compulsion.
>>
>> ITMT, you and Morris just keep on providing the vicarious thrills ...
>>
>> --www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 10/22/08
>> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> I was talking about my blow gun.. from the SnapOn truck. Okay... not
> really...

An expression with two positive words that, combined, make a negative:
"Yeah, right!"

:)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Leon" wrote in message >
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>>
>>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
>>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>>
>> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>>
>
>
> I see you posting a lot in the last couple of days. Are you back at home
> or using that new fangled phone in the field? LOL

"New fangled" makes a helluva broadband modem for the laptop when in the
boonies. Even does a good imitation of Hilda, Jr ... re-calculating!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I can see how our viewpoints can differ, given that. My thumb is the
> primary hold down and pusher device. Without it, I sure wouldn't have the
> control I count on for even the simplest cut. (I wonder if you're about to
> tell me it was your left thumb...)
>
> I have my share of lessons learned also, but all of them without serious
> injury. Are they any less valuable for that? Most recently, I
> thoughtlessly, casually reached across the front of the blade to prod a
> cut-off away from the blade with a pusher stick. At least I got half of it
> right; the plastic didn't bleed as a result. It was over in an instant,
> leaving me puzzled for long seconds on what had happened. There was a loud
> bang, the stick jerked sharply, and there was a ragged new hole behind me
> in the shoji I just put up around that end of the shop. (Brilliant choice
> of material, that.) The fence wasn't even on the table, so it wasn't a
> kickback. The tip of the pusher got snagged by the blade, and slammed into
> the insert plate hard enough to shatter. The insert bears testimony to the
> saw's power. It's bent and dented now beyond salvage. Not to mention, a
> contractor's saw's trunnions don't hold up well to that kind of abuse. I
> had to re-align the blade to the miter slots after that.
>


Hummmmm , Left thumb, I had just finished cutting a dado and had turned
the saw off. I then proceeded to remove the fence, swung my left hand
directly over the top of the blade as it was coasting down. Wham! It took
me one year to finally realize what had happened when I almost did it again.
I too initially thought it was a kick back but there was no damaged wood.
Funny how your mind stops remembering when you get injured.

Robatoy wrote:
> On Jan 22, 8:30 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
>>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>>
>> --www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 10/22/08
>> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg
>
> (you may note a small drive-by..)

See abpw for my personalized push stick. An oldie mouldie...

Kent <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected].
com:

> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe.
> I have ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of
> 3/4" plywood that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to
> cut this to 4" wide to exactly match (in width) the first piece
> I ripped. I am sliding the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand
> holding it tight to the fence. Pushing it through with a push
> stick does not "feel" safe to me. There is plenty of clearance
> for my fingers when I slide it through. However, since the board
> is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe to me to have the
> plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter side as I
> am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer, however,
> I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

I wouldn't do it, not after a board a few inches wider, and a few
inches longer kicked back on me when doing a rabbit about 5 years ago
and split my right index finger down the middle about 1/2" from the
tip, and that was with the blade only raised about 1/4".

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
>> already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
>> skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
>> cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
>> self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and
>> held firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the
>> blade and kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick,
>> use the pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip,
>> feedback, and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would
>> all use a pusher even on 30" or wider rips.
>>
>>
>
> You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
> firmly in place".

You can take it for granted I make that assumption on every operation.
Otherwise, I would do it some other way.

> Accidents typically happen when all does not go well. Work around a TS
> long enough and you will eventually realize that all does not go well 100%
> of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the fence for
> stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet panels I use
> the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is greater than
> the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do however know what
> can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel tightly planted
> against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight on top of the
> panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am prepared for
> the consequences should the panel bind.
>
> No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
> increases the odds of having an accident.

I'll agree with the platitude, but I don't see what's so magic about square.
Is ripping 2" from a 10x10" square any better or worse?

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:53a2512f-f2aa-472e-980a-ebce5e74cbea@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
> doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
> will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
> have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
> think this unsafe I have no idea.

Reread your first sentence.




How did you rip the other piece to
> 4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
> one is freaking you out.
>

Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the piece
of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever reason,
and being thrown back at you. The guard "will not" prevent this, guards "do
not" prevent kick back when short pieces are being cut.

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>
>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.
>
> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>
>

I notice the ruler so you can brag how big your stick is.

On Jan 20, 11:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Not my rule, just a common sence approach of how to gauge safe from unsafe.
> You do have to admit that 20 x 20 is more likely to cause a problem than say
> 20 x 80,

I am a heckuva lot more comfortable doing 20x20 than the long stuff,
because I rarely work with long material and I don't have the outfeed
support that you probably take for granted, and my fence doesn't
extend very far past the back of the blade. That's the kind of thing
I would have to stop, move things around, plan everything out, and be
uncomfortable doing. I deal with small parts day in and day out, so
my comfort level is much higher there. 20x20 is kind of huge for me
actually. I make boxes not furniture.


> I am not assuming anything here, nor do I think you sound like an idiot.
> Where did you get that idea? You simply sound inexperienced whether you are
> or not. I do things quite often that are not necessarily considered safe
> but I deal with those situations as they come up.

I've been around table saws for 15 years or so, and I began doing it
that way out of experience a few years ago. I don't expect to
convert anyone to my way of doing it, but I maintain that it in that
situation it's safer to back out than to go through. Longer pieces I
do at the band saw, and I would do the short ones there too if I
didn't feel it was safe.

> The OP sounds
> inexperienced and the best approach here is to warn against an unsafe
> procedure rather than give him a false sense of security and risk being
> injured. With time he will learn through close calls and hopefully only
> close calls that the unexpected can happen at any moment. Experience will
> help him recognize those times and how to better deal with the task.

The safety rules are good, but it's kind of like the building code.
You can follow all the rules and still make a crappy house. If you
understand what's behind the rule then you can understand when you're
in a situation where the rule isn't going to cover it. I have a scar
to remind me that using pushing sticks doesn't guarantee you're safe.
The biggest mistake I see people make is to just fixate on what is
happening at the cut and ignore what is happening at the fence. Get
your hands out of the path of the cut and the blade will do its job
just fine without you staring at it, as long as you do your job of
feeding the stock properly.

On Jan 20, 9:07=A0am, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) =A0the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

I see nothing wrong with the operation and do similar operations
routinely -- the bearing side against the fence is long enough that
the prohibition against crosscutting w/ the fence in place isn't a
problem; you're actually making a rip cut albeit on a (relatively)
short piece of stock.

If you're uncomfortable w/ doing it by hand and/or w/ a conventional
dead cat, I'd suggest making a wide push stick (say 3") that would
give more stability. The commercially available "Gripper" would be a
model...

--

On Jan 22, 5:17=A0pm, jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Jan 22, 8:30 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
> >>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use =
on
> >>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. =A0Easily holds a 5" piece of wood=
.
> >> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>
> >>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>
> >> --www.e-woodshop.net
> >> Last update: 10/22/08
> >> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> > Looks similar to these. The one on the right is 32 years old.
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Pushstick.jpg
>
> > (you may note a small drive-by..)
>
> See abpw for my personalized push stick. =A0An oldie mouldie...

Is that an accurate profile, Jo8hn?

On Jan 20, 4:21=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
...
> In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
> length of the blade is asking for trouble.

No, that's taking a general rule and carrying it to an absurd
conclusion.

The point isn't the L/W ratio, it's whether there's sufficient bearing
surface on the fence to keep the piece from wanting to turn as it
heads thru the blade. A rail stile cut to length is obvious.

Where the transition point is, is, imo, somewhat nebulous and
dependent on operator comfort, material and even the saw/blade
combination (a good saw w/ sharp, appropriate blade is far better than
an underpowered one w/ a pos or dull blade that will want to bind/slug
down instead of zipping right on thru. A 5x5 piece of 3" oak I'd
treat differently from the subject ply as well...

--

>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
> There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
> doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
> will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
> have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
> think this unsafe I have no idea. How did you rip the other piece to
> 4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
> one is freaking you out.
>
> -Kevin


I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
hands away from a cutter.

But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
body parts a certain direction.

Have you ever been watching a baseball game and seen a batter check his
swing and think he didn't "go," only to see the slow motion replay and
realize the bat traveled a much further distance that what appeared to
the naked eye?

There are times when we "think" we have plenty of room for our fingers
to clear, but when there's a slip or kickback, our body parts travel
much further than we think they would, before we have the ability to
check our swing.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Chris Friesen wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
>> hands away from a cutter.
>>
>> But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
>> for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
>> body parts a certain direction.
>
> In the scenario described I'd use my hand (4" is lots of clearance), but
> I'd hang a few fingers over the fence to make it harder for my hand to
> be pulled towards the blade.
>
> Combined with the guard, I'd do this cut carefully but I wouldn't feel
> particularly unsafe.
>
> Chris

Sounds reasonable.
I wasn't necessarily replying to you, but the general concept.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use on
> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of wood.

Very similar to the design I've been using for years:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:07:26 -0800 (PST), Kent <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
>ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
>that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
>to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
>the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
>Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
>is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
>However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
>to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
>side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
>however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
>Is what I am doing safe or not?

No. A square that small might turn and that may result in a nasty
kickback. You don't ever want a small piece of wood wedged between
the blade and the fence.

Kent wrote:
> I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?
Do you have all of your fingers?

From your discussion it sounds like you were using the most important
piece of safety equipment, your brain. All the trinkets in the world
will not prevent an accident if you don't think and understand what your
doing.

While there may be other ways of doing what you did, you completed the
task with no bad consequences. However if you were going to make many
cuts like this there are better ways.

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

I would have to agree with Leon on this, it is not a safe operation. I have
the same problem quite often and solve it this way:

Take the miter gauge and attach a long strip of wood to it, long enough to
be cut by the sawblade. Take your ripped board and place it against the
sawblade opposite the fence, and mark the miter gauge board to the width of
the ripped board. I usually put a stop block on the miter gauge at this
point. You can now cut the pieces to the proper size, A hold down on the
miter gauge is quite helpful.

Leon wrote:
> "Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
>> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
>> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
>> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
>> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
>> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
>> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
>> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
>> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
>> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
>> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>>
>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
> Not!
>
> If your hand has to go between the blade and the fence, it is not safe with
> that narrow of a cut.
>
> You should be using your miter gauge or a miter sled to cut the 5" square
> piece of wood. Any piece of wood that is being cut with a fence and is
> close to being square increases your chance of kick back. The smaller that
> pipe of wood or panel the more likely.
>
> That said, wood can be cut successfully in many unsafe ways but you need to
> be aware of the risks associated with those ways and let your gut over ride
> any thoughts if tells you that you about do something unsafe.
>
>
My most-used "push stick" is an inverted "U" shaped slider that
straddles the fence with the bottom shaped like the bottom of a shoe
which sits on the work piece and a heel which pushes it along. On top
is a wooden knob. It works as a hold down as well as a push stick. It
is made from three pieces of 3/8 or 1/2 plywood. I don't remember
where the idea came from. I'm sure I didn't think it up on my own.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Social Security: World's biggest Ponzi Scheme.

"Leon" wrote

> I NEVER use a push stick, they scare me to death. I always apply
> downward pressure, typically I use a Gripper or a home made hold down
> devise with a hook on the rear.

Ditto ... not enough "control", as far as I'm concerned.

I prefer the old "shoe" style "push" stick with a long "sole" that keeps
downward pressure on the work piece, as well as against the fence if need
be, way past the blade.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jan 20, 1:18 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
> different matters. ...

Both of these are ripping operations. The 5" length is plenty long
enough for bearing against the fence imo.

I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.



5" is way too short to safely rip if the board is 5" wide.

"Robatoy" wrote

> (you may note a small drive-by..)

Duly noted ... one of these days, maybe, but let me get the last one out of
college first before succumbing to that particular compulsion.

ITMT, you and Morris just keep on providing the vicarious thrills ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:52:46 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article
><71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Is what I am doing safe or not?
>
>If in doubt, don't!


I hope I can help prevent an injury here. Before you make the cut,
stop and seriously ask yourself if there is a safer way to make this
cut. Nobody will criticize you for working more safely, and for
woodworking, you need to keep as many fingers as possible.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I felt perfectly safe when I cut the end of my thumb off 20 years ago. I
> had completed cutting a dado and had turned the saw off. You never know
> when an accident can happen.

I can see how our viewpoints can differ, given that. My thumb is the primary
hold down and pusher device. Without it, I sure wouldn't have the control I
count on for even the simplest cut. (I wonder if you're about to tell me it
was your left thumb...)

I have my share of lessons learned also, but all of them without serious
injury. Are they any less valuable for that? Most recently, I thoughtlessly,
casually reached across the front of the blade to prod a cut-off away from
the blade with a pusher stick. At least I got half of it right; the plastic
didn't bleed as a result. It was over in an instant, leaving me puzzled for
long seconds on what had happened. There was a loud bang, the stick jerked
sharply, and there was a ragged new hole behind me in the shoji I just put
up around that end of the shop. (Brilliant choice of material, that.) The
fence wasn't even on the table, so it wasn't a kickback. The tip of the
pusher got snagged by the blade, and slammed into the insert plate hard
enough to shatter. The insert bears testimony to the saw's power. It's bent
and dented now beyond salvage. Not to mention, a contractor's saw's
trunnions don't hold up well to that kind of abuse. I had to re-align the
blade to the miter slots after that.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:40:29 -0500, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
>>
>>> If you are interested, I just posted a photo of the push stick I use
>>> on alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Easily holds a 5" piece of
>>> wood.
>>
>> Very similar to the design I've been using for years:
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/PushStick.jpg
>>
>>
>>
> I notice the ruler so you can brag how big your stick is.

Ha. I can't even lift my push stick.

Or get to the saw at the moment, for that matter :-(

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> By your rule it's unsafe to rip a 20x20 piece of ply to 19x20, which
> is nonsense.

Not my rule, just a common sence approach of how to gauge safe from unsafe.
You do have to admit that 20 x 20 is more likely to cause a problem than say
20 x 80, but what we are talking about here is 5"x5" and 20 x 20 would be
much safer than that. There is no black and white, all or none safe
approach. There are always varing degrees of danger.


Length has something to do with it. At some point it's
> long enough to not make much difference, until it's big enough that
> the fence not being long enough and being too awkward to maneuver
> takes over. At some point it's too short to not be safe regardless.
> I totally agree with the instinct of the OP to say this is in my gray
> area, stop and ask questions.
>
>
>> How long have you been using a TS????
>
> Never fails. Keep on doing what works for you. Don't assume I'm an
> idiot because I do it in a way outside your experience.


I am not assuming anything here, nor do I think you sound like an idiot.
Where did you get that idea? You simply sound inexperienced whether you are
or not. I do things quite often that are not necessarily considered safe
but I deal with those situations as they come up. The OP sounds
inexperienced and the best approach here is to warn against an unsafe
procedure rather than give him a false sense of security and risk being
injured. With time he will learn through close calls and hopefully only
close calls that the unexpected can happen at any moment. Experience will
help him recognize those times and how to better deal with the task.

"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'll agree with the platitude, but I don't see what's so magic about
> square. Is ripping 2" from a 10x10" square any better or worse?


Square or close to it is a good rule of thumb of observe that you are
starting to deal with a shape that is less going to be less stable against
the fence than material that is longer than it is wide.

"Kent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71d078be-ffb6-4edf-bb8c-42f85b402877@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
> ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
> that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
> to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
> the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
> Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
> is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
> However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
> to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
> side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
> however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.
>
> Is what I am doing safe or not?

If it doesn't feel safe, don't do it. I personally feel comfortable with
much narrower rips. The fingers that have no room ride on the fence,
gripping it and guiding the rest of the hand. They're not going anywhere. I
know that the entire saw, blade, and fence are aligned, adjusted, and tuned.
Nothing's coming lose or going to jump out to bite me. All the same, the
danger comes when you lose your respect for the saw's power to maim.

Why is your guard not installed? It contains the chips and improves dust
collection, and would have negated your need to ask this question. Don't
hesitate to install it, if you've removed it, when there's any question at
all about safety. Better still, leave it installed.