Educational stupidity

Oh great! Not content with destroying
the entire infra-strtucture of the state,
they now want to eliminate anyone who is capable
of fixing it in future. Way to go...

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
"Glenn Cramond" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In Australia, the NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the
> following tools from school's industrial arts (shop) workshops:
>
> List of prohibited items:
>
> angle grinder, disc> 100mm
> automotive pit
> belt sander (portable powered) >75mm belt
> chain block/block and tackle
> combination woodworking machines
> foundry equipment
> grinder (fixed), fitted with wire brushes
> GTA (TIG) welding
> jointer (planer)
> nail/stapling machine, staple > 20mm
> power plane (portable powered)
> powered sheetmetal machines
> router, radial arm
> router, table (fixed)
> saw, radial arm
> saw, circular (portable powered)
> saw, drop and slide
> spindle moulder
>
> Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high
> school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.
>
> Look at the list above and work out how many of these tools you first
> used at school and how many are going to be denied to NSW children.
>
> If you're an Aussi, please write to your local school / local member
> and voice your disgust.
>
> Just think how hard it will be for teachers to teach "building &
> construction" to year 11 / 12 kids without these tools.
>
> Need determined support please. If you feel stongly about this please
> email the minister, The Hon. Dr Andrew John REFSHAUGE,
> [email protected]
> and tell him how we will become the laughing stock of the world.
>
> Thanks
> Glenn

Ah, but "they" did just that. We indeed had a forge, and we also poured
aluminum castings. AAMOF, in junior high school (or middle school, as it is
now known) metal shop, I made a frying pan that my mother still uses ...
that was 47 years ago.

After you complete a project like that as a kid there is a thrilling sense
of accomplishment ... and little in your own mind that you can't accomplish.

These educrats, them with the genes we don't need in the pool, are robbing
our children of that experience, along with the self reliance that goes with
it.

Of course, you couldn't do this today without shooting all the lawyers
first.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/28/03



"gandalf" wrote in message

> zillion hand-tools exist. Welding is different, I doubt they would give
the kids
> a forge and a smithy. ;-)
>
>

--
In His Name, be Blessed,

Here is the E-Mail I sent to the fine upstanding Dr. Refshauge.
---
Dear Dr REFSHAUGE,

I can understand your concern by removing the following machines from the
Vo-Tech Centers.

angle grinder, disc> 100mm
automotive pit
belt sander (portable powered) >75mm belt
chain block/block and tackle
combination woodworking machines
foundry equipment
grinder (fixed), fitted with wire brushes
GTA (TIG) welding
jointer (planer)
nail/stapling machine, staple > 20mm
power plane (portable powered)
powered sheetmetal machines
router, radial arm
router, table (fixed)
saw, radial arm
saw, circular (portable powered)
saw, drop and slide
spindle moulder

I can see that you have the desire to keep the student's competative edge
down so they can not compete in a Job Markets. You seem to have the foresite
to lessen the student's abilities to understand full the operation of such
hazardous machines.. Machines that they will have to have some ability to
operate to find meaningful employment in the Trades when they complete High
School. Hey, though I am in the USA, I full support your choice.

BTW, my son will be graduating soon and has been full trained on the
machines you have chosen to remove from the Vo-Tech Centers there and will
be needing a job.. Exactly which district are you in so my son can imigrate
there to find a job your students will no longer be qualified to get?

-----

God Bless,

Mike

www.cedarworks.1plan.net
www.geocities.com/zuchick
"Glenn Cramond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In Australia, the NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the
> following tools from school's industrial arts (shop) workshops:
>
> List of prohibited items:
>
> angle grinder, disc> 100mm
> automotive pit
> belt sander (portable powered) >75mm belt
> chain block/block and tackle
> combination woodworking machines
> foundry equipment
> grinder (fixed), fitted with wire brushes
> GTA (TIG) welding
> jointer (planer)
> nail/stapling machine, staple > 20mm
> power plane (portable powered)
> powered sheetmetal machines
> router, radial arm
> router, table (fixed)
> saw, radial arm
> saw, circular (portable powered)
> saw, drop and slide
> spindle moulder
>
> Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high
> school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.
>
> Look at the list above and work out how many of these tools you first
> used at school and how many are going to be denied to NSW children.
>
> If you're an Aussi, please write to your local school / local member
> and voice your disgust.
>
> Just think how hard it will be for teachers to teach "building &
> construction" to year 11 / 12 kids without these tools.
>
> Need determined support please. If you feel stongly about this please
> email the minister, The Hon. Dr Andrew John REFSHAUGE,
> [email protected]
> and tell him how we will become the laughing stock of the world.
>
> Thanks
> Glenn

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> They took your guns, now they want to take your tools.

No, they didn't *take* our guns, some people did hand them in willingly
though. As for the tools, they can prise them loose from my cold, clammy
fingers ......

"gandalf" <[email protected]> wrote in message > >

> --------------
> Hardly a laughing stock. You're more likely to become the only folk that
> actually know what they're doing. But I agree that given that these things
exist
> and they are likely to use them in future they should become familiar with
their
> operation.

You make some good points, but read the entire list. They are talking about
"shop" , not just woodworking. How do you teach welding without a welder?
Rub two rods together to make heat?
Ed

"Steve Wolfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high
> > school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.
>
> Yep, I got my first taste of metal and woodworking in junior high
> school. About two months after I started, I got my first taste of shop
> accidents, when a young fool in my class managed to slice through all of
> the tendons in *BOTH* of his hands. A few months later, another young
> fool managed to nearly remove both of his thumbs with a band saw.
>
> Then, in high school, I took an advanced woodworking class, that took
> up two class periods each day. While there were plenty of careless
> screw-offs in the class, there wasn't a single injury, despite the fact
> that we had much more hands-on time, with much more dangerous machinery.
>
> After some thought, I've realized why there was such a difference:
> The teacher. In junior high, all students had to take those introductory
> shop classes, and the teachers were just herding them through like they
> would in any other class. In high school, where the class was an
> elective, the teacher took it VERY seriously. Before we could use ANY
> machine, we first had to stand around and watch the instructor
> demonstrate. He would not only show us how to use it correctly, he'd show
> us subtle "gotchas", and also (in a controlled fashion) demonstrate the
> consequences of NOT using the machine correctly. Then, were required to
> read a fair amount on the machine's proper use, maintenance, and safety.
> Then we had to pass a written exam on proper use and safety. Then we had
> to pass an "in person" exam where we demonstrated to the instructor that
> we were capable of using the machine without causing ourself, or anyone
> else.
>
> By the time you did all of that for each machine you needed to use, it
> was a fair amount of time and effort invested, and it was, in my belief,
> the greatest investment that great instructor, Dale Sandusky, could have
> ever instilled in us. I suppose that taking all of the machinery out of a
> shop is one way to prevent kids from severely injuring themselves, but
> it's certainly not the ONLY way.
>
> steve
>
>
>
Similar story in my high school metal shop class - except that our teacher
'Cal' would often be cleaning a hand gun. We could tell from his tone and
the glint in his eyes what he was saying had to be understood and complied
with. He did teach us a lot, and as bizzare as many our projects were,
(ranging from a canon to a cap for a pickup truck, he worked with us to get
it done right.

These decisions are more often driven by insurance costs than by any curriculum choice or
demand.
The liability insurance usually makes up a multiple of the entire cost to present the
coursework.

It's sad, but this is a result of people looking for a payday through lawsuits. Insurance
costs regarding this equipment are extreme.
If some of you, tradesmen, find this same type of action in your communities, look for the
nearest vocational school in your district. Then volunteer to speak or teach as allowed.
It's this type of action and a community willing to pay more in school tax to cover the
costs that establish or keep these "shop" programs in schools.
No real action on your part, nullifies your contrary opinion.

Just my two cents, you may need change,
Myx



"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ah, but "they" did just that. We indeed had a forge, and we also poured
> aluminum castings. AAMOF, in junior high school (or middle school, as it is
> now known) metal shop, I made a frying pan that my mother still uses ...
> that was 47 years ago.
>
> After you complete a project like that as a kid there is a thrilling sense
> of accomplishment ... and little in your own mind that you can't accomplish.
>
> These educrats, them with the genes we don't need in the pool, are robbing
> our children of that experience, along with the self reliance that goes with
> it.
>
> Of course, you couldn't do this today without shooting all the lawyers
> first.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/28/03
>
>
>
> "gandalf" wrote in message
>
> > zillion hand-tools exist. Welding is different, I doubt they would give
> the kids
> > a forge and a smithy. ;-)
> >
> >
>
>

"Glenn Cramond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In Australia, the NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the
> following tools from school's industrial arts (shop) workshops:
>
> (snipped) List of prohibited items:
>
>
> Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high
> school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.
>
>
> Just think how hard it will be for teachers to teach "building &
> construction" to year 11 / 12 kids without these tools.
-----------
Well, frankly we didn't have any single tool on your list when I was at school.
(some 30-odd years ago) The only power tool in the workshop was a lathe.
Everything else was human powered. And that was at least 70% of the purpose of
the class. We had to learn about the materials we were working with and the
tools to work them with. So personally I think the kids will benefit not suffer.
They can always apply the principles and their hard earned knowledge in future
and use power tools to speed up the process, but at least they'll appreciate
what they are doing and what they are doing it to.

>
> Need determined support please. If you feel stongly about this please
> email the minister, The Hon. Dr Andrew John REFSHAUGE,
> [email protected]
> and tell him how we will become the laughing stock of the world.
>
--------------
Hardly a laughing stock. You're more likely to become the only folk that
actually know what they're doing. But I agree that given that these things exist
and they are likely to use them in future they should become familiar with their
operation.

I've only recently taken up woodworking as a hobby and I am thankful for what I
learned those many years ago. Like most folks I buy all the 'must have' toys and
noise generating devices. So far I have just about every hand-held gizmo on the
market. I accept that I have learn how to get the best out of some of them but
it is somehow just not the same. Power tools are cheapish when compared to
manual devices designed for the same job. And, let's admit it, we just like the
damn things. But hand-tools are way more satisfying and less likely to wreck
your project. That said, I'm still going to use them but I intend to save up and
get some really good planes.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "gandalf" <[email protected]> wrote in message > >
>
> > --------------
> > Hardly a laughing stock. You're more likely to become the only folk that
> > actually know what they're doing. But I agree that given that these things
> exist
> > and they are likely to use them in future they should become familiar with
> their
> > operation.
>
> You make some good points, but read the entire list. They are talking about
> "shop" , not just woodworking. How do you teach welding without a welder?
> Rub two rods together to make heat?
---------
Fair point, I did only look from a woodworking point of view. Clearly somethings
can only be taught with the appropriate equipment. Woodwork is ancient so a
zillion hand-tools exist. Welding is different, I doubt they would give the kids
a forge and a smithy. ;-)

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ah, but "they" did just that. We indeed had a forge, and we also poured
> aluminum castings. AAMOF, in junior high school (or middle school, as it is
> now known) metal shop, I made a frying pan that my mother still uses ...
> that was 47 years ago.
------------
Impressive. I'm in 'The Land of the Great White Queen' we never got to play with
anything like that, in my school anyway.

>
> After you complete a project like that as a kid there is a thrilling sense
> of accomplishment ... and little in your own mind that you can't accomplish.
---------
That sort of sums up my point. With human driven hand tools and rough wood (all
hardwoods incidentally when I was at school) you can struggle so much to achieve
so much more that it does jack up your self esteem.

>
> These educrats, them with the genes we don't need in the pool, are robbing
> our children of that experience, along with the self reliance that goes with
> it.
-------------
Agreed

> Of course, you couldn't do this today without shooting all the lawyers
> first.
------------
I sometimes think we should just shoot those turkeys for the hell of it.

> Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high
> school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.

Yep, I got my first taste of metal and woodworking in junior high
school. About two months after I started, I got my first taste of shop
accidents, when a young fool in my class managed to slice through all of
the tendons in *BOTH* of his hands. A few months later, another young
fool managed to nearly remove both of his thumbs with a band saw.

Then, in high school, I took an advanced woodworking class, that took
up two class periods each day. While there were plenty of careless
screw-offs in the class, there wasn't a single injury, despite the fact
that we had much more hands-on time, with much more dangerous machinery.

After some thought, I've realized why there was such a difference:
The teacher. In junior high, all students had to take those introductory
shop classes, and the teachers were just herding them through like they
would in any other class. In high school, where the class was an
elective, the teacher took it VERY seriously. Before we could use ANY
machine, we first had to stand around and watch the instructor
demonstrate. He would not only show us how to use it correctly, he'd show
us subtle "gotchas", and also (in a controlled fashion) demonstrate the
consequences of NOT using the machine correctly. Then, were required to
read a fair amount on the machine's proper use, maintenance, and safety.
Then we had to pass a written exam on proper use and safety. Then we had
to pass an "in person" exam where we demonstrated to the instructor that
we were capable of using the machine without causing ourself, or anyone
else.

By the time you did all of that for each machine you needed to use, it
was a fair amount of time and effort invested, and it was, in my belief,
the greatest investment that great instructor, Dale Sandusky, could have
ever instilled in us. I suppose that taking all of the machinery out of a
shop is one way to prevent kids from severely injuring themselves, but
it's certainly not the ONLY way.

steve

[email protected] (Glenn Cramond) wrote:

>In Australia, the NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the
>following tools from school's industrial arts (shop) workshops:
>
>List of prohibited items:

Darn if you don't have my sympathies. I have a feeling that you are
dealing with the idiocy of metropolitan population groups vs people
that live in the rural areas.

They took your guns, now they want to take your tools. Something is
very wrong. We are responsible for our actions, leave us be.

Wes

--
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