Shop light saga continues

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
>
> >
> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>
>
> dave
>

Nope! I just get deals on like new, two bulb flouresant fixtures for free!
By the way, I got the shop painted again, lights mounted and wired.
I think I reached saturation point on lighting in the shop. I worked on the
wife's car all afternoon last week end. When I was closing up the shop I
realized I did not have ALL the lights turned on! At this point I have 24,
four foot, two bulb fixtures in the shop, (24' x 38' shop), plus five or six
100 watt incandesants. Darned near need sunglasses!
Greg

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Oh, Greg, if you REALLY
> are serious about having major rays streaking down from you ceiling,
> replace all your fluorescents with the dual 150W halogens that are
> shaped like fluorescent fixtures!


Geez! I forgot to mention I have two 500 watt halogen floods mounted on the
ceiling also!
They are mounted to the ceiling, right in front of where the car would be
parked. They are great to light up under the hood. Other than that I don't
use them much because of potential sunburn!
I do place the table saw under one, great lighting, but a few shadows.
Greg

Sat, Jan 17, 2004, 2:50am (EST+5) [email protected] (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave)
laments:
<snip> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??

No. Because I am pure of heart.

Pissed the Woodworking Gods off, didn't ya?

JOAT
You have two choices in life: You can dissolve into the mainstream, or
you can be distinct. To be distinct is to be different. To be different,
you must strive to be what no one else but you can be.
- Alan Ashley-Pitt=A0=A0=A0

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 15 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/

maybe I didn't make myself clear, Victor:

I didn't expect new fixtures to be broken. After finding 6 broken
fixtures at one store, I went to another store and OPENED the 4 boxes
they had in stock. One was undamaged. I bought it and it works.

Went to another store where there were 6. Opened them all. All were
broken. Left the store without purchasing anything.

So, I don't need a lecture on common sense...

dave

Victor Radin wrote:

> What I'm not understanding is why no one has mentioned opening the box
> at the store before checkout, drive home, install, damnit-don't-work,
> uninstall, drive back, see manager, wait for refund, find replacements,
> rinse & repeat. BTDT, don't need another t-shirt.
>
> I've never had a problem with either a cashier or manager when I ask to
> open any box for inspection prior to payment. I may have problems if
> there's a long line behind me... so check for that first. If there's
> lines, then I go to the service desk and get the manager to open them
> for me to inspect there- and usually wind up avoiding the lines too.
>
> I get a working whatever without the hassle or return trips, lines,
> accusatory managers suspicious that *I'VE* tossed my old broken whatsis
> in the box in place of their good model. And best of all- it just plain
> annoyed the hell outta one particular manager at the Orange Borg that
> insisted EVERYTHING he sold is perfect before we find 4 of 5 broken-in-
> box from sealed, fresh stock.
>
> BTW- this applies at any of the big box stores- electronics, computers,
> appliances, toys, home centers.
>
> Open and inspect it before you walk out of the store.
>
> /vic

Dave,
Are you buying shop lights?
Apparently, there is a difference in what's known as 'shop lights' and strip
lighting. Get the Lithonia strip lighting that works with electronic
ballasts and not magnetic. Then they should work fine with the T-8 lights.
Matt

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
> not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
> the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
> my studio, er, shop.
>
> I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
> units...only need 5 more. :)
>
> dave
>
> Greg wrote:
>
> > Bay Area Dave said:
> >
> >
> >>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
> >>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
> >>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
> >>
> >>dave
> >
> >
> > I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
> > paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>
> >
> > Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
> > and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
> > were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.
> >
> > Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
> > Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
> > start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!
> >
> > Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
> > ballast... ;-)
> >
> > FWIW,
> >
> > Greg G.

Wow! <squinting, just from the thought> You've got me beat on
candlepower, Greg. I've got 9 (correction, I HAD 9 fixtures until I
returned 5 that were installed and 1 I didn't take out of the box). I
replaced ONE lonely fixture, as 15 others were broken at 3 stores I went
to today! I don't have any incandescent ones. Oh, Greg, if you REALLY
are serious about having major rays streaking down from you ceiling,
replace all your fluorescents with the dual 150W halogens that are
shaped like fluorescent fixtures! I tried one out in the store today
and almost decided to take one home until I realized I don't want to be
burning 300 watts per fixture. Plus they get hotter than hell. Imagine
having just ten of those bad boys; 3,000 watts! Griswold would be proud.

dave

Greg O wrote:

> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
>>
>>
>>Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>>
>>
>>dave
>>
>
>
> Nope! I just get deals on like new, two bulb flouresant fixtures for free!
> By the way, I got the shop painted again, lights mounted and wired.
> I think I reached saturation point on lighting in the shop. I worked on the
> wife's car all afternoon last week end. When I was closing up the shop I
> realized I did not have ALL the lights turned on! At this point I have 24,
> four foot, two bulb fixtures in the shop, (24' x 38' shop), plus five or six
> 100 watt incandesants. Darned near need sunglasses!
> Greg
>

Just got back from the 3rd store: out of 6 units, guess how many were
broken. SIX! Every fixture in 6 unopened boxes had broken sockets.
What a great way to spend Friday...

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
> to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
> posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
> were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.
>
> I bought 6 new and different brand of fixtures for $20 each. Sub zero,
> rapid start, switch, etc. Put one up in the shop, then opened the next
> box: broken socket. Opened the next one: broken. and the next. and the
> next. ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
>
> Went to another location where they had 4 in stock. Three were broken.
> bought one.
>
> Now I'm on my way across town to ANOTHER Orchard Supply where rumor has
> it they have 9 in stock.
>
> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>
>
> dave
>

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>maybe I didn't make myself clear, Victor:
>
>I didn't expect new fixtures to be broken. After finding 6 broken
>fixtures at one store, I went to another store and OPENED the 4 boxes
>they had in stock. One was undamaged. I bought it and it works.
>
>Went to another store where there were 6. Opened them all. All were
>broken. Left the store without purchasing anything.
>
>So, I don't need a lecture on common sense...

Let's see. You're buying lighting fixtures. Common sense would
indicate that a Lighting store might be a better bet
then a hardware store. Especially once you'd visited not just
one, but two stores and seen the same quality merchandise.

There is a lamps plus right next to Oakridge, and a wholesale
lighting supply company on Junction - you could have found both
of them in the yellow pages. And you could stop at CB to drool
on the way to the wholesale place.

Common sense is seldom either.

scott

>

Why are you torturning yourself? Is there something special about these
fixtures? I bought the hanging 2 bulb 48" shoplights at Lowe's for $7.99.
Bulbs cost another $2. They work flawlessly.

Bob

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just got back from the 3rd store: out of 6 units, guess how many were
> broken. SIX! Every fixture in 6 unopened boxes had broken sockets.
> What a great way to spend Friday...
>
> dave
>
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
> > Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
> > to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
> > posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
> > were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.>

What I'm not understanding is why no one has mentioned opening the box
at the store before checkout, drive home, install, damnit-don't-work,
uninstall, drive back, see manager, wait for refund, find replacements,
rinse & repeat. BTDT, don't need another t-shirt.

I've never had a problem with either a cashier or manager when I ask to
open any box for inspection prior to payment. I may have problems if
there's a long line behind me... so check for that first. If there's
lines, then I go to the service desk and get the manager to open them
for me to inspect there- and usually wind up avoiding the lines too.

I get a working whatever without the hassle or return trips, lines,
accusatory managers suspicious that *I'VE* tossed my old broken whatsis
in the box in place of their good model. And best of all- it just plain
annoyed the hell outta one particular manager at the Orange Borg that
insisted EVERYTHING he sold is perfect before we find 4 of 5 broken-in-
box from sealed, fresh stock.

BTW- this applies at any of the big box stores- electronics, computers,
appliances, toys, home centers.

Open and inspect it before you walk out of the store.

/vic

Davey-Boy,
I've been following this 'thread' for a bit . . . maybe the 'problem' is a
'Coastal' thing?

I live on the 'other Coast' . . . or at least about 60 miles from it . . .
Philly suburbs. My shop is in the back yard, unheated, and we have the
household heat turned down, and I've closed most of the vents to the
basement & it's 'auxiliary' shop.

It is plain COLD in the shop and definitely 'cool' in the basement. The 'big
fixtures' in the 'shop' were there when we moved in . . . maybe 25 years
ago. A couple of them are still there, although I've changed to 'lamps' a
couple of times. I replaced the single-bulb incandescent fixtures with a
couple of 2-lamp fixtures I got used from a store that was remodeling. A
while ago I installed about 4 more 4-foot 'El Cheapo' Borg fixtures in the
shop, and got a quantity of 'El Cheapo' lamps to go with them.

Anyhow, what usually happens with me, the lamps simply 'dim out' with age.
The fixture - the I-don't-know-how-old-when-I-got-it-used - finally 'died'
{I could smell the ballast 'cooking'} after I had it 20+ years. Replaced it
with a Borg 'El Cheapo'. Do I get a slight 'flicker' when it's cold in the
shop ? . . . yes. Usually lasts until they warm up or I get the stove fired
up. Do they 'flicker' in the basement . . . Yes and No. The one by the far
wall, over the sink & near the window does, yet the one over the bench by
the door doesn't, nor the one over the bench on the back wall doesn't
either. {I think the one is simply a loose or oxidized lamp contact}.

FWIW . . .
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
> not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
> the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
> my studio, er, shop.
>
> I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
> units...only need 5 more. :)
>
> dave
>
> Greg wrote:
>
> > Bay Area Dave said:
> >
> >
> >>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
> >>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
> >>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
> >>
> >>dave
> >
> >
> > I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
> > paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>
> >
> > Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
> > and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
> > were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.
> >
> > Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
> > Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
> > start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!
> >
> > Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
> > ballast... ;-)
> >
> > FWIW,
> >
> > Greg G.
>

Greg,

I'm off to the remaining local Orchard supply stores, armed with
Mapquest. 3 stores have a total of 50 fixtures. Hopefully, at the
first I'm headed to I can cull 5 good ones...

dave

Greg wrote:

> Bay Area Dave said:
>
>
>>Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
>>not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
>>the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
>>my studio, er, shop.
>>
>>I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
>>units...only need 5 more. :)
>
>
> I'm sure you know the difference, but just in case you misunderstood,
> T-8 is not an 8 foot tube, it's a smaller diameter tube than a T-12
> (old style conventional). They burn a little brighter, cheaper (34
> watts), and longer than the T-12 types, and are reduced mercury. In
> your neck of the woods, they are probably *required* by law for use in
> all commercial buildings.
>
> I wish I could fit 8 footers in my stud^h^h^h^h shop - the ceiling is
> broken up by load-bearing engineered joists, so I'm limited to 4
> footers as well - and I still need more of them. This week, more
> clamps won out.
>
> Hope you get it all sorted out, however. That PM66 isn't doing you
> any good in the dark. ;-)
>
>
> Greg G.

No.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
> to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
> posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
> were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.
>
> I bought 6 new and different brand of fixtures for $20 each. Sub zero,
> rapid start, switch, etc. Put one up in the shop, then opened the next
> box: broken socket. Opened the next one: broken. and the next. and the
> next. ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
>
> Went to another location where they had 4 in stock. Three were broken.
> bought one.
>
> Now I'm on my way across town to ANOTHER Orchard Supply where rumor has
> it they have 9 in stock.
>
> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>
>
> dave
>

...

dave


Scott Lurndal wrote:
ommon sense is seldom either.

Ron, I spent part of today in 2 Orchard Supply stores. I opened (with
the staff's help) ALL of the 23 fixtures they had in stock. I found 5
that weren't broken! I put them up this afternoon and must say if they
work for a few years as they are today it'll be worth the aggravation.
They are brighter than all the other fixtures I've used. Totally
silent, of course, and rated to work below zero. Plus the way the bulbs
light instantly instills confidence that perhaps these fixtures won't
eat up bulbs like there's no tomorrow! :)


dave

Ron Magen wrote:

> Davey-Boy,
> I've been following this 'thread' for a bit . . . maybe the 'problem' is a
> 'Coastal' thing?
>
> I live on the 'other Coast' . . . or at least about 60 miles from it . . .
> Philly suburbs. My shop is in the back yard, unheated, and we have the
> household heat turned down, and I've closed most of the vents to the
> basement & it's 'auxiliary' shop.
>
> It is plain COLD in the shop and definitely 'cool' in the basement. The 'big
> fixtures' in the 'shop' were there when we moved in . . . maybe 25 years
> ago. A couple of them are still there, although I've changed to 'lamps' a
> couple of times. I replaced the single-bulb incandescent fixtures with a
> couple of 2-lamp fixtures I got used from a store that was remodeling. A
> while ago I installed about 4 more 4-foot 'El Cheapo' Borg fixtures in the
> shop, and got a quantity of 'El Cheapo' lamps to go with them.
>
> Anyhow, what usually happens with me, the lamps simply 'dim out' with age.
> The fixture - the I-don't-know-how-old-when-I-got-it-used - finally 'died'
> {I could smell the ballast 'cooking'} after I had it 20+ years. Replaced it
> with a Borg 'El Cheapo'. Do I get a slight 'flicker' when it's cold in the
> shop ? . . . yes. Usually lasts until they warm up or I get the stove fired
> up. Do they 'flicker' in the basement . . . Yes and No. The one by the far
> wall, over the sink & near the window does, yet the one over the bench by
> the door doesn't, nor the one over the bench on the back wall doesn't
> either. {I think the one is simply a loose or oxidized lamp contact}.
>
> FWIW . . .
> Regards & Good Luck,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
>>not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
>>the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
>>my studio, er, shop.
>>
>>I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
>>units...only need 5 more. :)
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Greg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bay Area Dave said:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>>>>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>>>>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>>>>
>>>>dave
>>>
>>>
>>>I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
>>>paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>
>>>
>>>Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
>>>and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
>>>were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.
>>>
>>>Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
>>>Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
>>>start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!
>>>
>>>Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
>>>ballast... ;-)
>>>
>>>FWIW,
>>>
>>>Greg G.
>>
>
>

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Went to another location where they had 4 in stock. Three were broken.
> bought one.
>
> Now I'm on my way across town to ANOTHER Orchard Supply where rumor has
> it they have 9 in stock.
>
> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>
>
> dave

Never. Rare that I see a broken item when I bring it home.

Bob, you'd be forever amazed at how a metropolitan area like the South
Bay can be so difficult (make that downright maddening) when it comes to
finding something as simple as a functional light fixture. I've heard
others lament at how difficult it can be to find simple things around
here. I've been here since '70 so I know what I'm up against! :)

I don't like torturing myself which is why I asked for a refund on the
Delta BS. :) I NEED lights in my shop and I can't find another source on
short notice. I posted a message a few minutes ago about finding the 6
that I needed, BTW. They are installed and give bright, quiet light.
So I celebrated with a trip to Rib Crib.

dave

Bob Davis wrote:

> Well, I appreciate not taking offense to my flippant reply. I don't live in
> one of those gorgeous parts of the country, but by golly, I've got retail
> availability and competition running out my ears. I forget that's not the
> case everywhere.
>
> Bob
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>nothing special except I can't find any others.
>
>
>

Bay Area Dave said:

>Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
>not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
>the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
>my studio, er, shop.
>
>I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
>units...only need 5 more. :)

I'm sure you know the difference, but just in case you misunderstood,
T-8 is not an 8 foot tube, it's a smaller diameter tube than a T-12
(old style conventional). They burn a little brighter, cheaper (34
watts), and longer than the T-12 types, and are reduced mercury. In
your neck of the woods, they are probably *required* by law for use in
all commercial buildings.

I wish I could fit 8 footers in my stud^h^h^h^h shop - the ceiling is
broken up by load-bearing engineered joists, so I'm limited to 4
footers as well - and I still need more of them. This week, more
clamps won out.

Hope you get it all sorted out, however. That PM66 isn't doing you
any good in the dark. ;-)


Greg G.

Tim Carver said:

>Greg -
>
>I just installed 3 of these same fixtures a few weeks ago,
>and when I did so I actually put my tongs on them and measured the
>current draw.

I haven't done this, I am basing the current draw in wattage and
amperage on the specs directly stated by the manufacturer's specs. By
the same token, I don't entirely trust the low range amperage readings
from clamp on electrician's ammeter tongs. A direct connect is more
accurate at low ranges.

>The three fixtures together (six 32 watt T8's) are drawing a total of
>1.72amps, which is just about what I would have expected - a load of
>192 watts at 125V would be 1.536 amps if there were no heat losses in
>the ballast. These fixtures are thus about 89% efficient. For these 3
>fixtures, it will take 52 hours for the heat losses in the ballasts to
>amount to a full kilowatt hour, which will cost me 8 cents.

Do your fixtures contain the SunPark SL-15 ballasts? There are quite
a few manufacturer out there, and these statements are based upon this
particular ballast. They specifically state amperage of 1.07 and
wattage of 128 watts in their spec sheets. It's a far cry from the
.59 amps on my OSRAM ballasts. Granted these are not too unusual
specs for a cheap shop light magnetic ballast, but I would have
preferred better on an electronic ballast. It could even be that
their spec sheets are in error - it IS a remotely managed Chinese
factory.

> IMHO, these fixtures are a deal at seven or eight bucks apiece, given
>that they start in cold weather,
>are reasonably well made with an honest to goodness replaceable
>ballast, and they don't consume an unreasonable amount of energy. If
>that makes me a sucker so be it.

I have no idea what fixtures YOU have, and was not targeting your
claims as invalid, or that you were a sucker. <g> It was simply a
reaction to what I saw at the store, and subsequent research on the
products. Many of the 'electronic ballasts' fixtures on the market
are a few transistors, diodes, caps and resistors on a cheap PCB,
along with 2 cheap open-frame transformers. They eat bulbs, burn out,
and the ballasts are not replaceable. The fact that your particular
devices have discreet ballasts and work is certainly a bonus.

The BORGs think I am nuts when I take apart their units in the store
to determine what I am actually getting...

I built the 6 tube hood on my 75 gal. planted aquarium with T-8s and
electronic ballasts. Each ballast draws .59 amps with 2 T-8 bulbs and
has a factor of >.98. They barely get warm, and the bulbs last for
years - but I pull them from the tanks and put them in the shop every
6 months or so.

FWIW,

Greg G.

As I emptied the last 2 of my Phillips T12 bulbs from the borg "contractor
pack", couldn't help but notice that it explictily says on the box that they
are meant only for fixtures with 34w ballasts. Seems to me that most older
fixtures had 40w ballasts. That might explain your problem with short life
(although mine don't seem to last too long either but out of the last 10
pack, 8 have survived at least six months). Now that I think about it,
maybe it isn't the bulb at all but rather the cheap chinese $10 borg
fixtures rated at 34w are probably shooting too much juice. The borg also
sells a pretty nice T8 fixture that includes a grate and has a pull chain
switch for less than $20 (bulbs not included). Still too early to comment
on bulb life but if they turn out to be short also, then I guess I'll
conclude that when it comes to shop lighting fixtures you get what you pay
for and the borg is not the place to go.

Here in the NE USA the halogen is nice, at least ConEd thinks so. I use it
for intense task lighting only although I guess if I used it more often I
could probably hook up an exhaust fan to the electric meter.

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wow! <squinting, just from the thought> You've got me beat on
> candlepower, Greg. I've got 9 (correction, I HAD 9 fixtures until I
> returned 5 that were installed and 1 I didn't take out of the box). I
> replaced ONE lonely fixture, as 15 others were broken at 3 stores I went
> to today! I don't have any incandescent ones. Oh, Greg, if you REALLY
> are serious about having major rays streaking down from you ceiling,
> replace all your fluorescents with the dual 150W halogens that are
> shaped like fluorescent fixtures! I tried one out in the store today
> and almost decided to take one home until I realized I don't want to be
> burning 300 watts per fixture. Plus they get hotter than hell. Imagine
> having just ten of those bad boys; 3,000 watts! Griswold would be proud.
>
> dave
>
> Greg O wrote:
>
> > "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
> >>
> >>
> >>Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
> >>
> >>
> >>dave
> >>
> >
> >
> > Nope! I just get deals on like new, two bulb flouresant fixtures for
free!
> > By the way, I got the shop painted again, lights mounted and wired.
> > I think I reached saturation point on lighting in the shop. I worked on
the
> > wife's car all afternoon last week end. When I was closing up the shop I
> > realized I did not have ALL the lights turned on! At this point I have
24,
> > four foot, two bulb fixtures in the shop, (24' x 38' shop), plus five or
six
> > 100 watt incandesants. Darned near need sunglasses!
> > Greg
> >
>

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:50:34 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:

>Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
>to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
>posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
>were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.

Have you taken a look at the $7.99 or so shop lights that HD is
currently selling? I think they are by "Commercial Electric" or
something like that. I don't normally go for el cheapo shop lights,
but these have electronic ballasts (supposedly will start down to 0
degress or something like that) and will work for either T8's or
T12's. I just bought a few for undercabinet lights. They seem to
work great, although I've no idea how long they will last since I just
installed them a couple of weeks ago. They are considerably better
than the normal cheap shoplights with the plastic ends - these are all
metal, reasonably sturdy, and they have a nice heavy enamel finish.

Tim Carver
[email protected]

Go with 3 watts per sq ft. In a shop with dust and vapors, that is
about the right light. Especially if you have 9 or 10 foot ceilings. I
have a 100 watt equal. spiral fluor. light bulb for an incadescent
fixture that blinds me at 3 feet. Are they all that bright?

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:50:53 GMT, Matt Zach <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Dave,
>Are you buying shop lights?
>Apparently, there is a difference in what's known as 'shop lights' and strip
>lighting. Get the Lithonia strip lighting that works with electronic
>ballasts and not magnetic. Then they should work fine with the T-8 lights.
>Matt
>
>Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
>> not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
>> the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
>> my studio, er, shop.
>>
>> I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
>> units...only need 5 more. :)
>>
>> dave
>>
>> Greg wrote:
>>
>> > Bay Area Dave said:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>> >>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>> >>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>> >>
>> >>dave
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
>> > paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>
>> >
>> > Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
>> > and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
>> > were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.
>> >
>> > Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
>> > Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
>> > start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!
>> >
>> > Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
>> > ballast... ;-)
>> >
>> > FWIW,
>> >
>> > Greg G.

Bay Area Dave said:

>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>
>dave

I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>

Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.

Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!

Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
ballast... ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.

I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...

dave

Tim Carver wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:50:34 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
>>to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
>>posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
>>were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.
>
>
> Have you taken a look at the $7.99 or so shop lights that HD is
> currently selling? I think they are by "Commercial Electric" or
> something like that. I don't normally go for el cheapo shop lights,
> but these have electronic ballasts (supposedly will start down to 0
> degress or something like that) and will work for either T8's or
> T12's. I just bought a few for undercabinet lights. They seem to
> work great, although I've no idea how long they will last since I just
> installed them a couple of weeks ago. They are considerably better
> than the normal cheap shoplights with the plastic ends - these are all
> metal, reasonably sturdy, and they have a nice heavy enamel finish.
>
> Tim Carver
> [email protected]

Bay Area Dave said:

>Greg,
>
>I'm off to the remaining local Orchard supply stores, armed with
>Mapquest. 3 stores have a total of 50 fixtures. Hopefully, at the
>first I'm headed to I can cull 5 good ones...
>
>dave

Oh my God! I just went to the local BORGs and checked out what they
are selling THIS month as lighting fixtures. Apparently the
fluorescent lighting market has gone to hell in a handbasket.

They are selling a line of fixtures that contain a SunPark SL-15
electronic ballast, rated for use with F40T-12 and F32/T-8 bulbs.
This ballast has a Power Factor of ~.50 and a Ballast Factor of ~.88.
Shop lights for $7.25. They DO start to 0 degrees F, however...

What does all this mean? With a standard T-12 40 watt bulb, you are
only getting 27 watts powering the lamp. With a T-8 32 watt bulb, you
actually get 32 watts. The real kicker is when you calculate the line
amp draw, you get .90 (T-12) or 1.07 (T-8) amps! Roughly HALF of the
energy used by this monstrosity is being used to light the bulb. And
the company is somehow getting an EnergyStar rating for (some of)
their products.

I guess the moral of this story is:
Pay now for better ballasts, or pay later in energy costs...

P.T. Barnum was right!

FWIW,

Greg G.

Tim, at the HD that I went to they had the same brand that I took back
due to dimness. I got them around a year ago. I think I bought about 4
to 6 and immediately returned them. The bulbs burned much less brightly
(40W) than the other fixtures I had. Maybe with different types of
bulbs they work better.

I got what I needed today and have installed them and they give the
brightest light of any brand of fixtures I've used.

dave

Tim Carver wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:58:39 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>>
>>dave
>
>
> Dave -
>
> As I said, these aren't Lithonias. They are made by "Commercial
> Electric" or some such. You're spending 3x the price for fixtures
> that are giving you a lot of trouble, I'm telling you, these are
> pretty good. They have real, replaceable electronic ballasts, they
> start in cold weather, they work for either T8's or T12's. I'm using
> them with T8's, they seem to work fine. My sample of 3 is no
> guarantee, but no broken sockets, no burened out bulbs, and they
> actually seem to be pretty well made.
> Just take a look, maybe they'll save you some time and money.
>
>
> Tim Carver
> [email protected]

I use 2 500's when spraying. Geez, those suckers get hot! I'm not
looking forward to spraying with them on a hot day. In point of fact, I
should try to spray in the morning before I exceed the correct spraying
temperature for the Enduro, which at this moment in time, I do not recall.

dave

Greg O wrote:

> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Oh, Greg, if you REALLY
>>are serious about having major rays streaking down from you ceiling,
>>replace all your fluorescents with the dual 150W halogens that are
>>shaped like fluorescent fixtures!
>
>
>
> Geez! I forgot to mention I have two 500 watt halogen floods mounted on the
> ceiling also!
> They are mounted to the ceiling, right in front of where the car would be
> parked. They are great to light up under the hood. Other than that I don't
> use them much because of potential sunburn!
> I do place the table saw under one, great lighting, but a few shadows.
> Greg
>

Well, I appreciate not taking offense to my flippant reply. I don't live in
one of those gorgeous parts of the country, but by golly, I've got retail
availability and competition running out my ears. I forget that's not the
case everywhere.

Bob

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> nothing special except I can't find any others.

Hey, I even tried to get 8 footers and the clerk said not only do they
not have any in stock, but that they are all designed to be mounted on
the ceiling, instead of hung from chains. I have a suspended ceiling in
my studio, er, shop.

I'm still gonna try to get some more of those $20 sub zero start
units...only need 5 more. :)

dave

Greg wrote:

> Bay Area Dave said:
>
>
>>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>>
>>dave
>
>
> I guess that is why a good electronic ballast costs more than what you
> paid for the whole fixture. All ballasts are not created equal... <g>
>
> Seriously, I had a couple of those cheap 'electronic ballast' lamps
> and one blew up. Took it apart to fix it, and after seeing how they
> were made, I threw the rest of them away. They were bulb eaters.
>
> Since you pay more for everything anyway <BFG>, why not get some
> Osram/Sylvania Quicktronic T-8 ballasts. They have regulated outputs,
> start below 0 degrees and have a >20,000 hour bulb life - guaranteed!
>
> Oh, I forgot - You bought some cheap fixtures that won't accept a real
> ballast... ;-)
>
> FWIW,
>
> Greg G.

nothing special except I can't find any others. I've tried HD's
Lithonia last year; they don't drive the bulbs as brightly. I'm not
near a Lowes. The ONE I got today is working fine, so far. Comes on
instantly and is bright. Now if I can get 5 more, I'll be able to see
what I'm doing in the shop.

dave

Bob Davis wrote:

> Why are you torturning yourself? Is there something special about these
> fixtures? I bought the hanging 2 bulb 48" shoplights at Lowe's for $7.99.
> Bulbs cost another $2. They work flawlessly.
>
> Bob
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Just got back from the 3rd store: out of 6 units, guess how many were
>>broken. SIX! Every fixture in 6 unopened boxes had broken sockets.
>>What a great way to spend Friday...
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Bay Area Dave wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
>>>to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
>>>posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
>>>were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.>
>
>
>

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:58:39 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:

>I tried some of their Lithonia lights; they weren't as bright. Took
>them back and got the ones from Orchard with electronic ballasts for
>$11.99. Then I started replacing bulbs left and right...
>
>dave

Dave -

As I said, these aren't Lithonias. They are made by "Commercial
Electric" or some such. You're spending 3x the price for fixtures
that are giving you a lot of trouble, I'm telling you, these are
pretty good. They have real, replaceable electronic ballasts, they
start in cold weather, they work for either T8's or T12's. I'm using
them with T8's, they seem to work fine. My sample of 3 is no
guarantee, but no broken sockets, no burened out bulbs, and they
actually seem to be pretty well made.
Just take a look, maybe they'll save you some time and money.


Tim Carver
[email protected]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:43:39 -0500, Greg G. wrote:


>They are selling a line of fixtures that contain a SunPark SL-15
>electronic ballast, rated for use with F40T-12 and F32/T-8 bulbs.
>This ballast has a Power Factor of ~.50 and a Ballast Factor of ~.88.
>Shop lights for $7.25. They DO start to 0 degrees F, however...
>
>What does all this mean? With a standard T-12 40 watt bulb, you are
>only getting 27 watts powering the lamp. With a T-8 32 watt bulb, you
>actually get 32 watts. The real kicker is when you calculate the line
>amp draw, you get .90 (T-12) or 1.07 (T-8) amps! Roughly HALF of the
>energy used by this monstrosity is being used to light the bulb. And
>the company is somehow getting an EnergyStar rating for (some of)
>their products.

Greg -

I just installed 3 of these same fixtures a few weeks ago,
and when I did so I actually put my tongs on them and measured the
current draw.

The three fixtures together (six 32 watt T8's) are drawing a total of
1.72amps, which is just about what I would have expected - a load of
192 watts at 125V would be 1.536 amps if there were no heat losses in
the ballast. These fixtures are thus about 89% efficient. For these 3
fixtures, it will take 52 hours for the heat losses in the ballasts to
amount to a full kilowatt hour, which will cost me 8 cents.

You don't pay for Power Factor losses, your electric company does.
You pay for wattage, and the power company has to make it's own
assumptions about what your overall power factor will be. A Power
Factor of .5 is right in the middle of the range for NPF ballasts -
there is nothing unusual about these ballasts at all. It is probably
true that the power company wouldn't like it much if your entire load
consisted of these things, but they're assuming it won't. You have
lots of purely resistive loads in your house (hopefully) to help
offset a few appliances with poor power factors. They're big boys,
let them worry about it.

IMHO, these fixtures are a deal at seven or eight bucks apiece, given
that they start in cold weather,
are reasonably well made with an honest to goodness replaceable
ballast, and they don't consume an unreasonable amount of energy. If
that makes me a sucker so be it.



Tim Carver
[email protected]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:08:29 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

>Tim Carver said:
>
>I don't entirely trust the low range amperage readings
>from clamp on electrician's ammeter tongs. A direct connect is more
>accurate at low ranges.
I suppose that's possible, but I'd bet money that the tongs are
accurate within a couple of percent. They give consistent readings on
other things I've tried them on. For example, the magnetic ballasts
on my HO 8 footers show about 2 amps per ballast for twin 110 watt
bulbs, right at 90% efficient which is just about what I would
expect.
>
>>The three fixtures together (six 32 watt T8's) are drawing a total of
>>1.72amps, which is just about what I would have expected - a load of
>>192 watts at 125V would be 1.536 amps if there were no heat losses in
>>the ballast. These fixtures are thus about 89% efficient. For these 3
>>fixtures, it will take 52 hours for the heat losses in the ballasts to
>>amount to a full kilowatt hour, which will cost me 8 cents.
>
>Do your fixtures contain the SunPark SL-15 ballasts?
Yes, and they do indeed have the amp draw you noted (1.07) printed
right on the label for 2 32 watt bulbs. Nonetheless, the actual draw
is far less. Perhaps they're stating the draw at startup, or
something.

>a few manufacturer out there, and these statements are based upon this
>particular ballast. They specifically state amperage of 1.07 and
>wattage of 128 watts in their spec sheets. It's a far cry from the
>.59 amps on my OSRAM ballasts. Granted these are not too unusual
>specs for a cheap shop light magnetic ballast, but I would have
>preferred better on an electronic ballast. It could even be that
>their spec sheets are in error - it IS a remotely managed Chinese
>factory.

The 1.72 A I measured for all 3 ballasts works out to about .573 amps
or 71 watts (again, at 125V), which is right in there with your OSRAM
ballasts. I just think this 1.07A thing may be some sort of spec
interpretration thing (startup, etc) or maybe a translation error at
the factory. The .5 Power Factor and .88 Ballast Factor you quote
(BTW, where was this, I didn't see it anywhere) are right in line
with other normal power factor ballasts. Nothing great, but again the
fixtures are only 7 bucks or so.
>
>> IMHO, these fixtures are a deal at seven or eight bucks apiece, given
>>that they start in cold weather,
>>are reasonably well made with an honest to goodness replaceable
>>ballast, and they don't consume an unreasonable amount of energy. If
>>that makes me a sucker so be it.
>
>I have no idea what fixtures YOU have, and was not targeting your
>claims as invalid, or that you were a sucker. <g>
Thanks for the <g>. A lot of people on this group make tossoff
comments about how people that don't share their opinions are
dumbasses or suckers and such. I just get tired of it sometimes, and I
had just gotten yet another comment like that on another thread that I
should have responded to and I chose instead to hold my fire, so I was
feeling a little grumpy and took a shot.
>It was simply a
>reaction to what I saw at the store, and subsequent research on the
>products. Many of the 'electronic ballasts' fixtures on the market
>are a few transistors, diodes, caps and resistors on a cheap PCB,
>along with 2 cheap open-frame transformers. They eat bulbs, burn out,
>and the ballasts are not replaceable. The fact that your particular
>devices have discreet ballasts and work is certainly a bonus.
The jury is still out on whether they're going to eat bulbs. I've
certainly seen that happen on another 4 foot fixture with T8's that I
have in our pantry. But that one is a pretty expensive fixture, so
I'm not sure where the problem really lies with these electronic
ballasts, I think they just need to be refined a bit more. I'm hoping
these cheapos pan out, I'm planning to load up on them if they do.
I bought the previous generation of cold weather shoplites at HD for
the back room of my shop, and I got burned; most of the ballasts
failed at a few months, and those cost a lot more than these cheapies.
Fortunately, I did the main room of my shop in 8' HO's, those puppies
have been as good a gold for a couple of years now of nearly constant
use, except that 2 of my 9 ballasts failed very early and had to be
replaced.
>
>The BORGs think I am nuts when I take apart their units in the store
>to determine what I am actually getting...
>
>I built the 6 tube hood on my 75 gal. planted aquarium with T-8s and
>electronic ballasts. Each ballast draws .59 amps with 2 T-8 bulbs and
>has a factor of >.98. They barely get warm, and the bulbs last for
>years - but I pull them from the tanks and put them in the shop every
>6 months or so.

Then you might be interested in a link I found from a gardener about
these SunPark ballasts. He is "overdriving" them (using one ballast
per bulb) to get extra bright lighting for growing stuff (didn't look
too closely at what, might be something DEA is interested in :-)).
The link is
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lights/msg111229472000.html
My takeway from reading this is that people will try to hotrod
absolutely ANYTHING! Note that I'm not suggesting doing this
overdriving thing, I just thought it was amusing that somebody would
try it.

BTW, is there a reason you didn't separate the ballasts out in a
metal box outside the hood? You still are putting a couple of hundred
watts of heat into the area under the hood, between all 3 ballasts.
>
>FWIW,
>
>Greg G.

Tim Carver
[email protected]

Nope, cause I bought my fixtures and lamps from an electrical supply house
almost 10 years ago. Just last week I had to replace a set of lamps. I would
always replace in pairs. I haven't got the foggiest idea what an Orchard
Supply is, but if they don't specialize in electrical stuff, I aint real
sure I'd buy light fixtures from 'em, maybe apples or oranges. <G>

--
"Cartoons don't have any deep meaning.
They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh."
Homer Simpson
Jerry© The Phoneman®
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Took back 6 light fixtures to Orchard Supply today after they urged me
> to return them when I told them of the many burned out bulbs. Since I
> posted the other thread about fluorescents, 2 more bulbs burned out that
> were marked with the install date: Jan 4, 2004. Lasted a mere 11 days.
>
> I bought 6 new and different brand of fixtures for $20 each. Sub zero,
> rapid start, switch, etc. Put one up in the shop, then opened the next
> box: broken socket. Opened the next one: broken. and the next. and the
> next. ALL 6 were broken (boxes were in perfect shape).
>
> Went to another location where they had 4 in stock. Three were broken.
> bought one.
>
> Now I'm on my way across town to ANOTHER Orchard Supply where rumor has
> it they have 9 in stock.
>
> Does this sort of thing ever happen to YOU??
>
>
> dave
>