Drawing

Robatoy wrote the following:
> On Jun 14, 1:40 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I also
>>> found that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a result
>>> from all the structured lettering required in the mechanical and
>>> architectural classes.
>>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Interesting.
>>
>> I put myself thru school working in drafting rooms.
>>
>> Also had to submit engineering lab reports in printed format.
>>
>> Got to the point where I could take notes faster printing than using
>> script.
>>
>> By the time I was 40, had totally forgotten how to form script
>> letters.
>>
>> To this day, I scribble my signature and print every thing else.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> Ditto. My cursive is illegibubble... so I print, and at a pretty good
> clip too.
>
Wait. I come across stuff I have scribbled down on paper a week or so
ago, and I can't read it.
Years ago, people would tell me that I had the most readable notes.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Jun 13, 7:58=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
> amusement. =A0I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
> reason) none on "furniture"! =A0; ) =A0Book suggestions welcome (I am
> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>
> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
> term above.
>
> Bill

There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by French and
Verick (sp). I went through a pretty intensive two year course in
Design Technology during the mid 1960's and this was the bible for
drafting. This was board drafting with drafting machines or parallel
bars, triangles, instruments, etc. I later went through company-
sponsored courses in CAD and CATIA. The heart of understanding
drafting, and creation of working drawings, is the understanding and
practice of orthographic projection. I'll draw fire for this, but
most of the young draftsmen and engineers who go through drafting
today have no Idea what projection is. You have to control the
layout, but the machine does most of the projection for you. Learning
the basics of projection will give you a much better idea of how, and
why, the various sides of an object relate.

I do shop sketches for most of my bigger projects on a drawing board
in the basement that is equipped with an old, very stable parallel
bar. I don't develop fancy drawings. Most of the shop sketches are
on par with what we might call conceptual layouts; and my quality
would probably drive my old instructors nuts. I am not even tempted
to acquire a CAD package or even use Sketchup. I get a much better
idea of how a cabinet or other project will fit together by thinking
it through on the table.

Side Note: It used to drive my wife nuts when she would ask how big
something was and I would hold my fingers apart and say 3-1/2"
inches. She would respond that isn't 3-1/2"! I would hold the pose
until she got a ruler and was usually pretty darned close. After
several years on the drafting table, doing aircraft drawings by hand,
I developed a pretty good micrometer eyeball. I have been off of the
board for about 25-30 years but I still have a pretty good eye for
sizes in the 0-36" range.

RonB

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>>
>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>>> understand that sooner!
>>
>> Grok that.
>
>I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
>I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_


>>> It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
>>> my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
>>> critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
>>> upside down, huh?
>>
>> I think she wants to expand our knowledge of perspective. She has all
>> sorts of interesting little chore drawings in the book. I have the
>> older version, 1st ed, I believe.
>
>Sounds like fun. I generally like "graded" exercises.

As we say in AA: Some are sicker than others.


>>> Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
>>> could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
>>> drawings here.
>>
>> Too many women, so little time...
>
>You could even sketch people grok'ing if you want...

Thet's "focking", sir.


>>>> The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
>>>> Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
>>>> beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
>>>> background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
>>>> great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
>>>> came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
>>>> anyway. (not his fault)
>>>>
>>>> I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
>>>> toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
>>>> coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
>>>> spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI
>>>
>>> Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )
>>
>> Ooh, tacky!
>
>There I was apologizing, then I noticed... That's really terrible! ;)

Thank you.


>>>>> I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
>>>>> for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
>>>>> about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
>>>>> yet...
>>>>
>>>> I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
>>>> flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
>>>> myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
>>>> on the computer.
>>>
>>> I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
>>> haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
>>> Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.
>>
>> You'd rather be wooddorking than myoping around, eh?
>
>Maybe you need to type a taping glass???

Three question marks? Tres gauche.

--
The more passions and desires one has,
the more ways one has of being happy.
-- Charlotte-Catherine

On Jun 13, 8:58=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
> amusement. =A0I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
> reason) none on "furniture"! =A0; ) =A0Book suggestions welcome (I am
> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.

Betty Edwards' Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
has become a standard text for college drawing classes.
Most 101 level exercises -- such as blind contour, drawing
upside down, drawing only the "negative space" surrounding
the model -- are taken straight from Edwards. This book,
and a lot of practice, will help you draw well enough not to
have to rely on a computer.

> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
> term above.
>
> Bill

As much as I know AutoCAD, I do most of my design
work on a sheet of butcher paper with a regular #2 pencil.
It feels natural, and I can relate to the space on that big
sheet of paper more easily than I can on a tiny 14" monitor.

On Jun 14, 8:59=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> >Someone told me that in college
> >that the engineering students and the art students were on completely
> >different parts of campus. That it was like 2 different worlds. =A0Havin=
g
> >examined the drawing books for myself, I understand that facts all that
> >much better now... =A0 =A0: )
>
> Indeed. =A0Engineering students are concerned with function while art
> students are concerned only with form, to the exclusion of function.
>

A lot of people seem to have trouble with this. In high school I was
pretty artistic and everyone thought I should go into drafting. I had
some mechanical design interest too, but unrelated to art.

Art and drafting are very loosely related. An excellent draftsman
does not need to be artistic - drafting is the language of engineering
and the precise definition of objects. With that said, some guys I
knew who were artistic by nature could produce some very nice
engineering drawings. They just looked better.

RonB

On Jun 15, 8:02=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> >>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >>>>> RonB wrote:
>
> >>>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
> >>>>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by
> >>>>>> French
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> Verick (sp).
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>> French& =A0Vierck.
>
> >>>>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>
> >>> Lew
>
> >>> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing"
> >>> Second
> >>> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you
> >>> used
> >>> the
> >>>> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one
> >>>> sounds
> >>>> tougher!
> >> -----------------------------
> >> Neither of us stuttered, "Engineering Drawing" is the correct
> >> title.
>
> >> Lew
>
> > I understand, but please look at this page for instance:
>
> >http://www.amazon.com/ENGINEERING-DRAWING-Students-Draftsmen-Seventh/...
>
> -----------------------------
> Don't have a clue
>
> Lew

Probably the previous edition of the one Lew and I own. The Amazon
page notes Thomas French as the Author and Charles Vierick as the
editor. I just looked at my copy and it is a 1953 edition. The
previous edition was 1947 -- probably this one. There were several
more previous editions dating back to an original in 1911. This
string caused me to take some time to look through my 1953 version and
it makes me wonder what is in the first version. I am guessing the
front matter is similar to the ones we own - Basic drafting
practices. Maybe the updates incorporate technology over the years.

It probably sounds a little flippant to say drafting is drafting. But
drafting is pretty close to being a lost art.

CAD isn't drafting.

RonB

On Jun 21, 10:07=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net> wrote:
> "Nova" =A0wrote ..> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >>I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
> >>then dropped her the same way. =A0She was lighter, at #300 or so.
> >>Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.
>
> > Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)
>
> --------
> Which could explain why Larry is single.

Really, if it is THAT hard to get a girl to go out on a date....

Swingman wrote:

> On 6/14/2011 9:09 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Whoa! Mine sure didn't. I was born left-handed and teachers tried to
>> "fix" me. The last teacher who tried that had her ass reamed by Mom
>> after she put me in a metal hand brace to hold the pencil. I was so
>> frustrated when I got home I was still crying. Mom fixed her wagon. ;)
>
>
> A teacher made my left-handed daughter write right-handed. Upshot is
> that she is basically now ambidextrous with regard to most tasks.
>

Similar misguided teacher but even worse--this one wanted all the
tablets lined up the same way on the desks as she looked at them so
forced me from the correct way as left-handed to the upside-down crabbed
thing one sees fairly often w/ those who aren't taught correctly.

Still suffer from it--by time Mom figure out what was going on, I was
seemingly beyond recovery despite having tried to break the habit over
the years.

I'm pretty much ambidextrous--throw righty, write/eat lefty. Tore up
shoulder in HS b-ball and taught self to write righty enough to get by
until it healed enough to begin to use again...

--

"Bill" wrote:

> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some
> interest
> in improving my skills in this area.
---------------------------------------------------
You want a mechanical drafting text book published prior to 1970.

Anything after that will reflect the transition to CAD.

Lew

"Leon" wrote:

> Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I also
> found that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a result
> from all the structured lettering required in the mechanical and
> architectural classes.
---------------------------------
Interesting.

I put myself thru school working in drafting rooms.

Also had to submit engineering lab reports in printed format.

Got to the point where I could take notes faster printing than using
script.

By the time I was 40, had totally forgotten how to form script
letters.

To this day, I scribble my signature and print every thing else.

Lew

RonB wrote:

> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by French
> and
> Verick (sp).
------------------------------
French & Vierck.

Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.

Lew

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Actually you start off with simple mechanical drawings, drafting is a
> very strict style of drawing with lots of tricks and rules.
> We never sketched anything in preparation of drawing what would be the
> finished drawing. The drawing required preparation so that it would
> be centered properly on the sheet of paper. Basically you started
> with determining the over all size of the object being drawn and that
> gave you a starting point for each view. I don't recall the formula
> but there was on used to center isometric drawings on the sheet.
>
> And as Larry has indicated once you have done a load of those properly
> structured drawings, sketching free hand seems to come naturally. You
> develope a very keen eye for things that stick out in a tool assisted
> mechanical drawing which dont look right. You find your self
> comparing lines that should be parallel or perpendicular. As you
> start sketching you do the same thing and quickly make corrections as
> you sketch those lines.
>

My experience agrees with this. I spend quite a bit of my planning time
sketching things based on what little I learned in high school about
drafting. I keep a spiral bound notebook around the shop so I can have
something to draw/sketch/figure on. (Other than the workbench. ;-))

Often, I'll only bother with showing the interesting (complicated) part
of the piece I'm working on. No need to show the joinery on all four
corners when it's all the same.

Puckdropper

Bill wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> RonB wrote:
>>>
>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
>>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by
>>>> French
>>>> and
>>>> Verick (sp).
>>> ------------------------------
>>> French& Vierck.
>>>
>>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>
> Lew
>
>
> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing"
> Second
> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you used
> the
>> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one
>> sounds
>> tougher!
-----------------------------
Neither of us stuttered, "Engineering Drawing" is the correct title.

Lew

Bill wrote:
>>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> RonB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
>>>>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by
>>>>>> French
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Verick (sp).
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> French& Vierck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing"
>>> Second
>>> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you
>>> used
>>> the
>>>> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one
>>>> sounds
>>>> tougher!
>> -----------------------------
>> Neither of us stuttered, "Engineering Drawing" is the correct
>> title.
>>
>> Lew
>
>
> I understand, but please look at this page for instance:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/ENGINEERING-DRAWING-Students-Draftsmen-Seventh/dp/B000K6KNGK/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1308127547&sr=8-28
-----------------------------
Don't have a clue

Lew

"Nova" wrote ..
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
>>then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
>>Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.
>
> Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)
>
--------
Which could explain why Larry is single.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:58:38 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
>A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>"can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!

First, get a nice architectural drafting book like Frank Ching's
_Architectural Graphics_. I found a 1985 copy for a couple bucks.
The 2009 version is $18. Oh, ISBN.nu has the old version for $7.50.


>I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.

Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.



>There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
>where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
>reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
>considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
>drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.

What do you know of perspective? Do you think in 2D or 3D?



>Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
>contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
>paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
>drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
>IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
>and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
>Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
>term above.

Try some of these on for size. Watch for sparks:

http://goo.gl/7oJa0 freehand sketching

http://goo.gl/wGA8T design your own furniture (maybe not)

http://goo.gl/EPv6Y Bob Lang's _Shop Drawings for Craftsman Furniture_

http://isbn.nu/9789063692537 Sketching, the basics $$
It's so new, it's not even published yet.



--
You are today where your thoughts have brought you;
you will be tomorrow where your thoughts take you.
-- James Lane Allen

On 6/14/2011 6:56 PM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in news:bu-
> [email protected]:
>
>> For some reason I'm that ways with thicknesses ... I can generally tell
>> in a photo how thick a table top, leg, etc. is ... and am seldom off by
>> an 1/8" in real life, but totally miss the boat with metric.
>
> Every eighth of an inch is 3 mm; an inch is 2.54 cm; a foot is 30 cm; a
> yard 90 cm; a mile is a lot.
>
> (in dutch speak)

Seems most of the Festool stuff is incremented in mm.

I have a Calculated Industries construction calculator on both my
DroidX, and the real thing in the shop, that I'm continually inputting
the likes of 21 3/16" to give me 538.1625mm to set my parallel guide
rails when cutting sheet goods to size.

I'm good to go ... as long as the electrons are flowing. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jun 19, 10:16=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. =A0Try drawing an upside down
> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
> perspective. =A0DAMHIKT.

It challenges you to draw what you actually see, not
what you *think* you see. Turn a rocking chair upside
down, and you no longer have a relevant, though flawed
"model" of it in your brain. Turn the finished drawing
over, and it looks surprisingly more realistic; your
seeing brain is forced to work more like a camera.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:16:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 6/13/2011 11:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>>>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>>
>>> Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
>>> sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.
>>
>> I believe you, but it seems like one should make several sketches before
>> drawing a formal design document. One of the things I noticed in
>> browsing what I could of the book Architectural Graphics were the
>> mention of different *types* of drawings. That seems to me like what is
>> missing from, or could complement, a typical sketch that I might make.
>>
>
>Actually you start off with simple mechanical drawings, drafting is a
>very strict style of drawing with lots of tricks and rules.
>We never sketched anything in preparation of drawing what would be the
>finished drawing. The drawing required preparation so that it would be
>centered properly on the sheet of paper. Basically you started with
>determining the over all size of the object being drawn and that gave
>you a starting point for each view. I don't recall the formula but
>there was on used to center isometric drawings on the sheet.

Yes, that might be better for him.
http://goo.gl/5Bg8I fi dollah, delivered.
From the Seventies, before things got hosed in schools.


>And as Larry has indicated once you have done a load of those properly
>structured drawings, sketching free hand seems to come naturally. You
>develope a very keen eye for things that stick out in a tool assisted
>mechanical drawing which dont look right. You find your self comparing
>lines that should be parallel or perpendicular. As you start sketching
>you do the same thing and quickly make corrections as you sketch those
>lines.

Right, you learn how things are supposed to look from whatever
perspective, and then sketch them in an emulation of the more formal
drawing.

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:43:09 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 6/14/2011 6:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>
>> Side Note: It used to drive my wife nuts when she would ask how big
>> something was and I would hold my fingers apart and say 3-1/2"
>> inches. She would respond that isn't 3-1/2"! I would hold the pose
>> until she got a ruler and was usually pretty darned close. After
>> several years on the drafting table, doing aircraft drawings by hand,
>> I developed a pretty good micrometer eyeball. I have been off of the
>> board for about 25-30 years but I still have a pretty good eye for
>> sizes in the 0-36" range.
>
>For some reason I'm that ways with thicknesses ... I can generally tell
>in a photo how thick a table top, leg, etc. is ... and am seldom off by
>an 1/8" in real life, but totally miss the boat with metric.

You're not good with those _big_ numbers, eh, Swingy?

I was a lot better with sizes when I had to wrench bolts all day every
day. My eyes were in dial caliper mode, I think. Ditto when I was
working as a QA inspector and had a surface plate in front of me at
least part of every week.

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On 6/13/2011 7:58 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
> reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>
> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
> term above.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
I recall way back when I took drafting courses in school. Long before
computers, when drawings were done on a straight edged drawing board.
Add to that the t-square, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle and the
scale. With those simple tools and the help of dividers and a bow
compass we could draw just about any thing. Even more interesting was
knowing how to draw a perfect elipse with a bow compass and triangles.

The first year class was very disciplined with lots of rules and lots of
lettering. The last quarter of that year we had to give up all the
tools except for the drawing board and pencil. All drawing till the
end of the year would be free hand. I was shocked as to how simple this
seamed and how accurate the drawings were considering every thing
appeared very close to scale.

On 6/13/2011 11:53 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some
>> interest
>> in improving my skills in this area.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> You want a mechanical drafting text book published prior to 1970.
>
> Anything after that will reflect the transition to CAD.
>
> Lew
>
>
>

Agreed but may be not quite that far back, I was taking advanced
drafting/architectural class in the early 70's, buying text books
published in the early 70's and there was no mention of CAD. IIRC CAD
was not on the radar even back then. I have a friend that is an
architect about 5 years my junior, he has not yet started using a
computer for his drawings. He is self employed and quite successful.
He has one part time employee and he is contemplating retiring, a
millionaire. So some one even back in the late 70's early 80's was
still publishing mechanical drafting/architecture books.

But agreeing again you do need to get a book that was published when
drawing with out the aid of a computer was still mainstream.

On 6/13/2011 9:22 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:58:38 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> First, get a nice architectural drafting book like Frank Ching's
> _Architectural Graphics_. I found a 1985 copy for a couple bucks.
> The 2009 version is $18. Oh, ISBN.nu has the old version for $7.50.

>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
> sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.

Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I also found
that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a result from all
the structured lettering required in the mechanical and architectural
classes.

On 6/14/2011 6:56 PM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in news:bu-
> [email protected]:
>
>> For some reason I'm that ways with thicknesses ... I can generally tell
>> in a photo how thick a table top, leg, etc. is ... and am seldom off by
>> an 1/8" in real life, but totally miss the boat with metric.
>
> Every eighth of an inch is 3 mm; an inch is 2.54 cm; a foot is 30 cm; a
> yard 90 cm; a mile is a lot.
>
> (in dutch speak)


LOL ... there's an app for that! ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in news:bu-
[email protected]:

> For some reason I'm that ways with thicknesses ... I can generally tell
> in a photo how thick a table top, leg, etc. is ... and am seldom off by
> an 1/8" in real life, but totally miss the boat with metric.

Every eighth of an inch is 3 mm; an inch is 2.54 cm; a foot is 30 cm; a
yard 90 cm; a mile is a lot.

(in dutch speak)

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 6/14/2011 12:40 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I also
>> found that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a result
>> from all the structured lettering required in the mechanical and
>> architectural classes.
> ---------------------------------
> Interesting.
>
> I put myself thru school working in drafting rooms.
>
> Also had to submit engineering lab reports in printed format.
>
> Got to the point where I could take notes faster printing than using
> script.
>
> By the time I was 40, had totally forgotten how to form script
> letters.
>
> To this day, I scribble my signature and print every thing else.
>
> Lew
>
>

As long as I was still doing both, both came out well. Girls used to be
jealous. BUT once I stopped drawing and using the computer for CAD they
both pretty much went down hill from there.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 05:17:20 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Father Haskell wrote:
>> On Jun 13, 8:58 pm, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>
>>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>>>
>>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>>
>>> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
>>> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
>>> reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
>>> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
>>> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>>
>> Betty Edwards' Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
>> has become a standard text for college drawing classes.
>> Most 101 level exercises -- such as blind contour, drawing
>> upside down, drawing only the "negative space" surrounding
>> the model -- are taken straight from Edwards. This book,
>> and a lot of practice, will help you draw well enough not to
>> have to rely on a computer.
>
>
>I went and read about 100 reviews of Edwards' book again (at Amazon). It
>sounds alot like a psychology book--spending a lot of words defending
>the "right brain" concept. Comparing their tables of contents, I liked
>that of "How To Draw What You See" better than "DOTRSOTB". I'm sure
>both books have a lot to offer. I'm not sure what you mean by "draw
>well enough not to have to rely on a computer". I can produce a pretty
>realistic looking apple on a piece of paper, but I don't think I could
>do as well on a computer--even an Apple. ; ) I assume that you meant
>for drawing things like furniture. But it seems hard to beat SU for
>doing what it does well. I view paper and SU as complementary.

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.


>I've haven't had any drawing instruction since high school (and what I
>received there was not intensive at all), but I practiced alot back in
>those days and I can create 3D looking drawings. If I really give a
>drawing my best effort, it will plateau with a decent level of
>mediocrity that I am familiar with. I was hoping that with some
>knowledge of new ideas, that I might be able to heighten this ceiling. I
>ordered the older book "Engineering Drawing" by French and Vierck (sp),
>even though it is perhaps not directly related to those we are currently
>discussing. I'll probably save most of my drawing/design time for
>winter when it's harder to do as much in the shop--though I must admit I
>sketched for an hour or so last week and found it quite relaxing.

The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI


>I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
>for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
>about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
>yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 04:20:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
>>>> putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
>>>> little time...
>>>
>>> Your wife reads these, does she?<giggle>
>
>If you mean, does she read my newsgroup posts, then no. She has her own
>computer and is more of a Facebok than a Usenet user. I crossed over
>my normal boundary line in telling her about the green walnut
>crotch...that ought to keep her away from here for good! lol ; )

Har!


>> Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
>> As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
>> important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
>> 10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
>> know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
>> a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
>> if you don't know where they are: "Put them back when you're through
>> with them!"

Excellent advice.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On 6/13/2011 10:54 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:

>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I recall way back when I took drafting courses in school. Long before
>> computers, when drawings were done on a straight edged drawing board.
>> Add to that the t-square, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle and the
>> scale. With those simple tools and the help of dividers and a bow
>> compass we could draw just about any thing. Even more interesting was
>> knowing how to draw a perfect elipse with a bow compass and triangles.
>>
>> The first year class was very disciplined with lots of rules and lots of
>> lettering. The last quarter of that year we had to give up all the tools
>> except for the drawing board and pencil. All drawing till the end of the
>> year would be free hand. I was shocked as to how simple this seamed and
>> how accurate the drawings were considering every thing appeared very
>> close to scale.
>>
>
> I did minimal drafting in woodshop and metalshop classes in high school.
> My dad also had a drafting table set up at home for a few years before
> that and I experimented by trying to copy a few schematic diagrams I saw
> in a book (when I was about 13). I didn't have the discipline (or
> guidance or expertise) at the time to draw the diagrams as neat as the
> ones in the book. My dad was a civil engineer (though). I tried to read
> "Popular Electronics" from the school library every month--that was some
> of the "hardest reading" I did in those days. I believe Popular
> Electronics folded into Byte magazine around 1980 or so.


I recall drafting/mechanical drawing in shop too. Formal drafting is
considerably more disciplined. In drafting class we were never allowed
to copy anything already drawn. We had to use real objects for our
drawings. We had to hold the objects, measure them. etc.
To be good at mechanical drawings you have to be some what AR. ;~) I
have loosened up some what over the years and have been using CAD since
the mid 80's. My sketching, printing, hand writing has gone to the dogs.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>
>>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>>> interested in also doing color work.
>>
>> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
>> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
>> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
>> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
>> the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
>> probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
>> most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
>> sample pages to read at Amazon.
>
>Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

Also check out books by Claudia Nice [watercolor, ink, and pen] and
Lee Hammond [acrylics (my fave) and colored pencil drawing.] Both are
prolific writers.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:37:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>When I started this thread I was asking how I might go about learning to
>"sketch" better. I understand that learning to do formal drawings will
>help my sketching. Maybe I can learn some of the theories and apply it
>to my sketching and reduce the "overhead"? %) Becoming acquainted
>with the theories are will be a good start! I've got my dad's rules,
>triangles, and compasses just a feet away--oh, and the slide rule too!!!

Reduce the overhead. Right. Be sure to overthink it. It's critical at
this point, lad.


> Might be handy if I wish to sketch a "spring-pole lathe"-ala Roy
>Underhill. :) I need to be careful what I put on my plate so I don't
>burst!--lol.

Uh, yeah. ;)


>By the way, the drill press baseboard (with wheels and legs) is
>complete. I "just" need to assemble the DP on top of it. I will try to
>assemble it on the ground and lift it up. Admittedly, it's been
>intimidating me for a few days...my wife underwent some surgery too, but
>I accept responsibility for the delay. I need to take full advantage
>now of the currently ideal weather! I can practice drawing snowmen in
>the winter, to spec.! :)

Hey, hey hey. Save those detailed jobs for later on, once you have a
feel for this drawing/sketching thing, OK?

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:40:22 -0400, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:13:28 -0700, Larry Jaques
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
>>then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
>>Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.
>
>Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)

Dina, my 1920s tablesaur from Hollywood, CA, of course. I won't even
entertain the thought of that other possibility, you venomous vixen
bastid, Yack. Petite is where it's at. Young Lucy Lawless was one
exception. You can keep your Rosie O'Donnels to yourself,
thankyouverymuch. Ewwwwww!

3 lists, w/ overlap: http://goo.gl/B9ROJ and http://goo.gl/vOhda and
http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-petite-short-actresses.html
Any of these ladies would do just fine. Look at Nia Peeples at age 50!
http://goo.gl/ZdU2K (Ouch!, 2550x3300 pixels, not optimized, but you
can see her pores and nary a wrinkle. She's amazing.)


[quick topic change]
This just in: http://goo.gl/s04ot Let's build one!

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:06:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 6/13/2011 9:22 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:58:38 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>
>>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>>
>> First, get a nice architectural drafting book like Frank Ching's
>> _Architectural Graphics_. I found a 1985 copy for a couple bucks.
>> The 2009 version is $18. Oh, ISBN.nu has the old version for $7.50.
>
>>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>
>> Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
>> sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.
>
>Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I also found
>that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a result from all
>the structured lettering required in the mechanical and architectural
>classes.

Whoa! Mine sure didn't. I was born left-handed and teachers tried to
"fix" me. The last teacher who tried that had her ass reamed by Mom
after she put me in a metal hand brace to hold the pencil. I was so
frustrated when I got home I was still crying. Mom fixed her wagon. ;)

Anywho, after that, the only thing I wrote in cursive script was my
signature. Everything else is block. When I write script, I tend to
squeeze the writing instrument into submission, smearing lead or ink
all over the page, still thinking about that damned teacher and her
metal brace.


--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On 6/14/2011 6:33 PM, RonB wrote:

> Side Note: It used to drive my wife nuts when she would ask how big
> something was and I would hold my fingers apart and say 3-1/2"
> inches. She would respond that isn't 3-1/2"! I would hold the pose
> until she got a ruler and was usually pretty darned close. After
> several years on the drafting table, doing aircraft drawings by hand,
> I developed a pretty good micrometer eyeball. I have been off of the
> board for about 25-30 years but I still have a pretty good eye for
> sizes in the 0-36" range.

For some reason I'm that ways with thicknesses ... I can generally tell
in a photo how thick a table top, leg, etc. is ... and am seldom off by
an 1/8" in real life, but totally miss the boat with metric.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jun 13, 8:58=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
> amusement. =A0I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
> reason) none on "furniture"! =A0; ) =A0Book suggestions welcome (I am
> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>
> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
> term above.
>
> Bill

I'm a bit late to the party, but before computers became affordable, I
did a lot 3D drawings, to scale, using "Lawson Charts"
They were a little tricky at the beginning, but once it 'clicked',
they were easy to use and the results spectacular.
I created a couple of designs for which I needed funding, and the
powers at be, the guys with their chequebooks didn't 'get' what I was
trying to show them... till they saw it 3D.
It is basically a series of charts with different vanishing points and
angles of view, over which you lay your vellum or acetate (my
preference was to draw on acetate).
Google and you will get lots of info on those charts. They are
everywhere and cheap.
Here's some on Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/3zzpd3e

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:56:43 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
>>> could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
>>> drawings here.
>>
>> Too many women, so little time...
>
>
>Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
>That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
>maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
>the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
>sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )

UNbearded clams are my favorite. (find -that- one in your dictionary)

BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
context than a dictionary.

P.S: I thought you didn't do animals...

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Jun 20, 3:38=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> Larry Jaques wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> =A0 wrote:
>
> >>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> >>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. =A0Try drawing an upside d=
own
> >>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
> >>>>> perspective. =A0DAMHIKT.
>
> >>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces yo=
u to
> >>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to =
play
> >>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I ha=
ve
> >>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Ed=
die)
> >>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that son=
g in
> >>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" =A0Seriously, I wish I had reall=
y
> >>>> understand that sooner!
>
> >>> Grok that.
>
> >> I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were o=
n!
> >> I was someone surprised to find the word.
>
> > Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
> > excellent. =A0_Stranger in a Strange Land_
>
> Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
> "Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
> putting together by BS--and then my lights! =A0So many challenges so
> little time... =A0I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
> table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
> elsewhere).
>
> Cheers,
> Bill

When I need a reference, I mostly refer back to my trusty Fundamentals
Of Engineering Graphics.
Cecil Jensen and Fred Mason
McGraw-Hill Ryerson.
ISBN 0-07-54929

It was previously called Drafting Fundamentals. My original 1967 copy
was replaced in 1988.
It is seriously dated from a CAD perspective, but still a good book
when it is time to come back down to earth.

On Jun 15, 8:30=A0pm, RonB <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 8:02=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bill wrote:
> > >>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> > >>>>> RonB wrote:
>
> > >>>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
> > >>>>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by
> > >>>>>> French
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>> Verick (sp).
> > >>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>> French& =A0Vierck.
>
> > >>>>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>
> > >>> Lew
>
> > >>> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing"
> > >>> Second
> > >>> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you
> > >>> used
> > >>> the
> > >>>> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one
> > >>>> sounds
> > >>>> tougher!
> > >> -----------------------------
> > >> Neither of us stuttered, "Engineering Drawing" is the correct
> > >> title.
>
> > >> Lew
>
> > > I understand, but please look at this page for instance:
>
> > >http://www.amazon.com/ENGINEERING-DRAWING-Students-Draftsmen-Seventh/.=
..
>
> > -----------------------------
> > Don't have a clue
>
> > Lew
>
> Probably the previous edition of the one Lew and I own. =A0The Amazon
> page notes Thomas French as the Author and Charles Vierick as the
> editor. =A0I just looked at my copy and it is a 1953 edition. =A0The
> previous edition was 1947 -- probably this one. =A0There were several
> more previous editions dating back to an original in 1911. =A0 This
> string caused me to take some time to look through my 1953 version and
> it makes me wonder what is in the first version. =A0 I am guessing the
> front matter is similar to the ones we own - Basic drafting
> practices. =A0Maybe the updates incorporate technology over the years.
>
> It probably sounds a little flippant to say drafting is drafting. =A0But
> drafting is pretty close to being a lost art.
>
> CAD isn't drafting.
>
> RonB

OK, OK - That last response made me remember a conversion I had with
an old airframe draftsman buddy at least 15 years ago.

Ralph was a designer on a couple versions of the B52 weapons systems
in the 1960's and 1970's. As the B-52 was modernized some of the
original drawings were redone in CAD and CATIA, others were not.
Boeing landed a contract to do Change Order incorporation on some of
the old drawings and their fair-haired young CATIA Whizzes didn't have
a clue of what to do with them. Boeing started rounding up some of
the old draftsmen that produced the drawings, and finally badgered and
bribed Ralph into coming out of retirement for a year or so to update
and clean up the drawings. He said he went into it with a lot of
anxiety because he really didn't want to un-retire, and he was afraid
he was out of tune with current methods. Not so! He was in the same
room with a group of young, contract CATIA-drivers who were drawing
around $70-80 per hour. He, and other old farts, were sitting at
drafting tables that Boeing dug out of salvage, using vintage
equipment and earning $150 per hour. The young bucks thought these
old guys were some kind of magicians.

RonB

On Jun 14, 1:40=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
> > Strange phenomenon, may be not as practice makes perfect. I =A0also
> > found that my script hand writing improved dramatically as a =A0result
> > from all the structured lettering required in the mechanical and
> > architectural classes.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Interesting.
>
> I put myself thru school working in drafting rooms.
>
> Also had to submit engineering lab reports in printed format.
>
> Got to the point where I could take notes faster printing than using
> script.
>
> By the time I was 40, had totally forgotten how to form script
> letters.
>
> To this day, I scribble my signature and print every thing else.
>
> Lew

Ditto. My cursive is illegibubble... so I print, and at a pretty good
clip too.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:13:28 -0700, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

>I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
>then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
>Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.


Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:09:35 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 6/14/2011 9:09 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Whoa! Mine sure didn't. I was born left-handed and teachers tried to
>> "fix" me. The last teacher who tried that had her ass reamed by Mom
>> after she put me in a metal hand brace to hold the pencil. I was so
>> frustrated when I got home I was still crying. Mom fixed her wagon. ;)
>
>A teacher made my left-handed daughter write right-handed. Upshot is
>that she is basically now ambidextrous with regard to most tasks.

It's good that she handled it well. Ambidexterity is a _definite_
bonus in life. As a mechanic, I had to learn how to thread a nut onto
a bolt upside down, offhanded, and out of sight, while holding the
flange with one finger, the washer with another, and the nut with the
other two. One learns to think in 3 dimensions after doing a couple of
those types of projects. It's great. I hope you encourage your girl
to go for it!

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On 6/14/2011 1:16 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> acclaimed contemporary furniture masters. A key to Michael's success as
> a designer/builder is his sketchbook, where he brainstorms and refines
> ideas before committing to a more detailed illustration of a final
> design. His old, dog-eared sketchbooks are also a reservoir of new
> ideas. <snip>
>
> His approach, as described briefly above, seems "natural" to me.

My "sketchbook" just happens to be on my hard drive, where I
"brainstorm, and refine ideas before committing to ... a final design".

I just use a mouse ... a pencil/pen slows me down.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/14/2011 9:09 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> Whoa! Mine sure didn't. I was born left-handed and teachers tried to
> "fix" me. The last teacher who tried that had her ass reamed by Mom
> after she put me in a metal hand brace to hold the pencil. I was so
> frustrated when I got home I was still crying. Mom fixed her wagon. ;)

A teacher made my left-handed daughter write right-handed. Upshot is
that she is basically now ambidextrous with regard to most tasks.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill <[email protected]> writes:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>>>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>>>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>>>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>>>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>>>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>>>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>>>>> understand that sooner!
>>>>
>>>> Grok that.
>>>
>>> I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
>>> I was someone surprised to find the word.
>>
>> Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
>> excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_
>
>Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!

If you read it young enough, it will warp you for life (in a good way).

scott

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

I said:
>> An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
>> David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.
>
> It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
>review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
>that there is no "How To" in the book.

I forgot to comment on the reviews: They should have stuck with their
copies of Dumb and Dumberer. They obviously have no imagination.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

Leon wrote:
> On 6/13/2011 7:58 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>>
>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>
>> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
>> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
>> reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
>> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
>> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>>
>> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
>> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
>> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
>> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
>> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
>> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
>> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
>> term above.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I recall way back when I took drafting courses in school. Long before
> computers, when drawings were done on a straight edged drawing board.
> Add to that the t-square, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle and the
> scale. With those simple tools and the help of dividers and a bow
> compass we could draw just about any thing. Even more interesting was
> knowing how to draw a perfect elipse with a bow compass and triangles.
>
> The first year class was very disciplined with lots of rules and lots of
> lettering. The last quarter of that year we had to give up all the tools
> except for the drawing board and pencil. All drawing till the end of the
> year would be free hand. I was shocked as to how simple this seamed and
> how accurate the drawings were considering every thing appeared very
> close to scale.
>

I did minimal drafting in woodshop and metalshop classes in high school.
My dad also had a drafting table set up at home for a few years before
that and I experimented by trying to copy a few schematic diagrams I saw
in a book (when I was about 13). I didn't have the discipline (or
guidance or expertise) at the time to draw the diagrams as neat as the
ones in the book. My dad was a civil engineer (though). I tried to read
"Popular Electronics" from the school library every month--that was some
of the "hardest reading" I did in those days. I believe Popular
Electronics folded into Byte magazine around 1980 or so.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:58:38 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>
> First, get a nice architectural drafting book like Frank Ching's
> _Architectural Graphics_. I found a 1985 copy for a couple bucks.
> The 2009 version is $18. Oh, ISBN.nu has the old version for $7.50.
>

Looks interesting. Thanks!


>
>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>
> Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
> sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.

I believe you, but it seems like one should make several sketches before
drawing a formal design document. One of the things I noticed in
browsing what I could of the book Architectural Graphics were the
mention of different *types* of drawings. That seems to me like what is
missing from, or could complement, a typical sketch that I might make.


>
>
>
>> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
>> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
>> reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
>> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
>> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>
> What do you know of perspective? Do you think in 2D or 3D?

I know to include a "view point" and draw the edges, of say a piece of
lumber, toward it. I was hoping to expand my "shading" skills.


On a scale of 1-10 for a non-engineer my sketching is probably a 6 or 7.
I think my sketching would look poor compared to that of an engineer.
Maybe we should "Draw Blinky"? : )



>
>

I saved a copy of all of these and I will visit them. Thanks!

> Try some of these on for size. Watch for sparks:
>
> http://goo.gl/7oJa0 freehand sketching
>
> http://goo.gl/wGA8T design your own furniture (maybe not)
>
> http://goo.gl/EPv6Y Bob Lang's _Shop Drawings for Craftsman Furniture_
>
> http://isbn.nu/9789063692537 Sketching, the basics $$
> It's so new, it's not even published yet.
>
>
>
> --
> You are today where your thoughts have brought you;
> you will be tomorrow where your thoughts take you.
> -- James Lane Allen
>

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:16:43 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/13/2011 11:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>>>>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>>>
>>>> Learning how to draw formal design documents will help you with your
>>>> sketching. Your pencil will automatically know where to go to start.
>>>
>>> I believe you, but it seems like one should make several sketches before
>>> drawing a formal design document. One of the things I noticed in
>>> browsing what I could of the book Architectural Graphics were the
>>> mention of different *types* of drawings. That seems to me like what is
>>> missing from, or could complement, a typical sketch that I might make.
>>>
>>
>> Actually you start off with simple mechanical drawings, drafting is a
>> very strict style of drawing with lots of tricks and rules.
>> We never sketched anything in preparation of drawing what would be the
>> finished drawing. The drawing required preparation so that it would be
>> centered properly on the sheet of paper. Basically you started with
>> determining the over all size of the object being drawn and that gave
>> you a starting point for each view. I don't recall the formula but
>> there was on used to center isometric drawings on the sheet.
>
> Yes, that might be better for him.
> http://goo.gl/5Bg8I fi dollah, delivered.
> From the Seventies, before things got hosed in schools.
>

Looks like that may be a suitable book.



>
>> And as Larry has indicated once you have done a load of those properly
>> structured drawings, sketching free hand seems to come naturally. You
>> develope a very keen eye for things that stick out in a tool assisted
>> mechanical drawing which dont look right. You find your self comparing
>> lines that should be parallel or perpendicular. As you start sketching
>> you do the same thing and quickly make corrections as you sketch those
>> lines.
>
> Right, you learn how things are supposed to look from whatever
> perspective, and then sketch them in an emulation of the more formal
> drawing.

I understand. I should be grateful for the artistic skills I have--even
though they aren't honed with the sort of precision Leon described
("drafting is a very strict style of drawing with lots of tricks and
rules...") I think I will keep practicing as opportunities present
themselves. I now have a pad and pencils nearby. I was hoping for
structured exercises, and I'm sure to find some in the book you
suggested--though I'm sure it's rather the T-square/drafting table
approach. My original intention was to let SketchUp pick up where my
"sketches" leave off. I'll try to balance my strategy with what you and
Leon are suggesting. Perhaps by getting the book you linked to above or
similar.
When I started this thread I was asking how I might go about learning to
"sketch" better. I understand that learning to do formal drawings will
help my sketching. Maybe I can learn some of the theories and apply it
to my sketching and reduce the "overhead"? %) Becoming acquainted
with the theories are will be a good start! I've got my dad's rules,
triangles, and compasses just a feet away--oh, and the slide rule too!!!
Might be handy if I wish to sketch a "spring-pole lathe"-ala Roy
Underhill. :) I need to be careful what I put on my plate so I don't
burst!--lol.

By the way, the drill press baseboard (with wheels and legs) is
complete. I "just" need to assemble the DP on top of it. I will try to
assemble it on the ground and lift it up. Admittedly, it's been
intimidating me for a few days...my wife underwent some surgery too, but
I accept responsibility for the delay. I need to take full advantage
now of the currently ideal weather! I can practice drawing snowmen in
the winter, to spec.! :)

Bill

WW wrote:

>> I still have my tools and drafting board from high school class in 1943.
>> Still use them. At my age the computer programs are tough for me to
>> comprehend. I also block print instead of curser. A couple weeks ago our
>> grand daughter, eight years old saw me printing something that had the
>> number 8. She informed me I did not know how to make an 8. I make it with 2
>> little circles, same as on the keyboard I am using. She of course uses the
>> curser as taught in school . Also Bill, I have many years of Popular
>> Electronics magazines. WW

Small world, my teachers got after me when I was about 8 for not writing
8 the cursive way too. My school shop teachers insisted on block
printing even in things like material lists. If there's a lesson there,
it must be that it's hard to please everyone! By the way, the article I
mentioned earlier was written by Michael Fortune, and I'm no one to
2nd-guess him!

Bill

Bill wrote:
> WW wrote:
>
>>> I still have my tools and drafting board from high school class in 1943.
>>> Still use them. At my age the computer programs are tough for me to
>>> comprehend. I also block print instead of curser. A couple weeks ago our
>>> grand daughter, eight years old saw me printing something that had the
>>> number 8. She informed me I did not know how to make an 8. I make it
>>> with 2
>>> little circles, same as on the keyboard I am using. She of course
>>> uses the
>>> curser as taught in school . Also Bill, I have many years of Popular
>>> Electronics magazines. WW
>
> Small world, my teachers got after me when I was about 8 for not writing
> 8 the cursive way too. My school shop teachers insisted on block
> printing even in things like material lists. If there's a lesson there,
> it must be that it's hard to please everyone! By the way, the article I
> mentioned earlier was written by Michael Fortune, and I'm no one to
> 2nd-guess him!
>
> Bill

Here are some relevant comments about Michael Fortune from the FWW website:

<snip> Michael Fortune has designed and built furniture for clients
across the continent for more than 30 years. He is one of Canada's most
acclaimed contemporary furniture masters. A key to Michael's success as
a designer/builder is his sketchbook, where he brainstorms and refines
ideas before committing to a more detailed illustration of a final
design. His old, dog-eared sketchbooks are also a reservoir of new
ideas. <snip>

His approach, as described briefly above, seems "natural" to me.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Hey, hey hey. Save those detailed jobs for later on, once you have a
> feel for this drawing/sketching thing, OK?


I just returned from the used book store. There was not a (suitable)
mechanical drawing book in the place. I did examine a book containing
designs of woodworking projects. Looking at the drawings it contained
made me appreciate much better the connection to mechanical drawing that
you, Leon and Lew have been advocating. Many of the other drawing books
had drawings of naked people in them without even one piece of
furniture--let alone dove tail joinery! Someone told me that in college
that the engineering students and the art students were on completely
different parts of campus. That it was like 2 different worlds. Having
examined the drawing books for myself, I understand that facts all that
much better now... : )

Thanks all for the drawing lesson!

Bill

RonB wrote:

> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by French and
> Verick (sp).

Thanks RonB. I just ordered the 1966 edition for $6.94 including S&H.
Newer editions ceded to graphing technology, and I don't wish to read
about 1970s graphing technology! : ) Thank you for the suggestion;
based upon your experience with it, I'm sure I'll enjoy it. I may need
to assemble a make-shift drafting table...

I hope Larry appreciates that I just dug deep and made the purchase
instead of hemming and hawing and "over thinking" it! ; )

Bill


I went through a pretty intensive two year course in
> Design Technology during the mid 1960's and this was the bible for
> drafting. This was board drafting with drafting machines or parallel
> bars, triangles, instruments, etc. I later went through company-
> sponsored courses in CAD and CATIA. The heart of understanding
> drafting, and creation of working drawings, is the understanding and
> practice of orthographic projection.
I'll draw fire for this, but
> most of the young draftsmen and engineers who go through drafting
> today have no Idea what projection is. You have to control the
> layout, but the machine does most of the projection for you. Learning
> the basics of projection will give you a much better idea of how, and
> why, the various sides of an object relate.
>
> I do shop sketches for most of my bigger projects on a drawing board
> in the basement that is equipped with an old, very stable parallel
> bar. I don't develop fancy drawings. Most of the shop sketches are
> on par with what we might call conceptual layouts; and my quality
> would probably drive my old instructors nuts. I am not even tempted
> to acquire a CAD package or even use Sketchup. I get a much better
> idea of how a cabinet or other project will fit together by thinking
> it through on the table.
>
> Side Note: It used to drive my wife nuts when she would ask how big
> something was and I would hold my fingers apart and say 3-1/2"
> inches. She would respond that isn't 3-1/2"! I would hold the pose
> until she got a ruler and was usually pretty darned close. After
> several years on the drafting table, doing aircraft drawings by hand,
> I developed a pretty good micrometer eyeball. I have been off of the
> board for about 25-30 years but I still have a pretty good eye for
> sizes in the 0-36" range.
>
> RonB

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>
>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by French
>> and
>> Verick (sp).
> ------------------------------
> French& Vierck.
>
> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>
> Lew
>

Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing" Second
Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you used
the "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one sounds
tougher!

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> By the way, the drill press baseboard (with wheels and legs) is
>> complete. I "just" need to assemble the DP on top of it.

>
> Hey, hey hey. Save those detailed jobs for later on, once you have a
> feel for this drawing/sketching thing, OK?
>
> --
> To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
> -- Chinese Proverb


Larry, Well, I got the DP installed on the base board up to the point in
the instructions where two people are required to lift the head on the
pole. I'll try to find a willing victim--I mean helper, tomorrow.
Progress is good.

Bill

Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> RonB wrote:
>>
>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by French
>>> and
>>> Verick (sp).
>> ------------------------------
>> French& Vierck.
>>
>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing" Second
> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you used the
> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one sounds
> tougher!
>
> Bill

I determined that the fundamentals book is shorter (365 pages, I think)
and contains the first 13 chapters of the other book. I sense that my
sketches are going to school! :)

Bill

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of good books on drafting and the one I would
>>>>> recommend, if you can find one, is "Engineering Drawing" by
>>>>> French
>>>>> and
>>>>> Verick (sp).
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> French& Vierck.
>>>>
>>>> Still have mine, it's an eighth edition, published 1953.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>> Hmmm.. The one I ordered is "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing"
>> Second
>> Edition,same authors as above, published 1966. Appears that you used
>> the
>>> "Manual of Engineering Drawing". Between the two, the 2nd one
>>> sounds
>>> tougher!
> -----------------------------
> Neither of us stuttered, "Engineering Drawing" is the correct title.
>
> Lew


I understand, but please look at this page for instance:

http://www.amazon.com/ENGINEERING-DRAWING-Students-Draftsmen-Seventh/dp/B000K6KNGK/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1308127547&sr=8-28

Bill

RonB wrote:
> On Jun 14, 8:59 pm, Larry Jaques<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Someone told me that in college
>>> that the engineering students and the art students were on completely
>>> different parts of campus. That it was like 2 different worlds. Having
>>> examined the drawing books for myself, I understand that facts all that
>>> much better now... : )
>>
>> Indeed. Engineering students are concerned with function while art
>> students are concerned only with form, to the exclusion of function.
>>
>
> A lot of people seem to have trouble with this. In high school I was
> pretty artistic and everyone thought I should go into drafting. I had
> some mechanical design interest too, but unrelated to art.
>
> Art and drafting are very loosely related. An excellent draftsman
> does not need to be artistic - drafting is the language of engineering
> and the precise definition of objects. With that said, some guys I
> knew who were artistic by nature could produce some very nice
> engineering drawings. They just looked better.
>
> RonB
>

My dad, as a civil engineer, produced drawings like that. Here's a
subtle illustration that someone may possibly understand. When he was
'promoted' to "The City Engineer" he moved his drafting table with him
into his new office. I realize that is a complex illustration and you
either understand it or you don't. I don't mind sharing the story
because I think it illustrates passion.

Bill (jr)

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and was
not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned including
the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am interested in also
doing color work.

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
> interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me
than most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it
and sample pages to read at Amazon.

Cheers,
Bill

Father Haskell wrote:
> On Jun 13, 8:58 pm, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
>> anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
>> in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
>> sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
>> amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
>> assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
>> "can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!
>>
>> I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
>> drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.
>>
>> There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
>> where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
>> reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
>> considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
>> drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.
>
> Betty Edwards' Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
> has become a standard text for college drawing classes.
> Most 101 level exercises -- such as blind contour, drawing
> upside down, drawing only the "negative space" surrounding
> the model -- are taken straight from Edwards. This book,
> and a lot of practice, will help you draw well enough not to
> have to rely on a computer.


I went and read about 100 reviews of Edwards' book again (at Amazon). It
sounds alot like a psychology book--spending a lot of words defending
the "right brain" concept. Comparing their tables of contents, I liked
that of "How To Draw What You See" better than "DOTRSOTB". I'm sure
both books have a lot to offer. I'm not sure what you mean by "draw
well enough not to have to rely on a computer". I can produce a pretty
realistic looking apple on a piece of paper, but I don't think I could
do as well on a computer--even an Apple. ; ) I assume that you meant
for drawing things like furniture. But it seems hard to beat SU for
doing what it does well. I view paper and SU as complementary.

I've haven't had any drawing instruction since high school (and what I
received there was not intensive at all), but I practiced alot back in
those days and I can create 3D looking drawings. If I really give a
drawing my best effort, it will plateau with a decent level of
mediocrity that I am familiar with. I was hoping that with some
knowledge of new ideas, that I might be able to heighten this ceiling. I
ordered the older book "Engineering Drawing" by French and Vierck (sp),
even though it is perhaps not directly related to those we are currently
discussing. I'll probably save most of my drawing/design time for
winter when it's harder to do as much in the shop--though I must admit I
sketched for an hour or so last week and found it quite relaxing.

>
>> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
>> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
>> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
>> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
>> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
>> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
>> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
>> term above.
>>
>> Bill
>
> As much as I know AutoCAD, I do most of my design
> work on a sheet of butcher paper with a regular #2 pencil.
> It feels natural, and I can relate to the space on that big
> sheet of paper more easily than I can on a tiny 14" monitor.

I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
> perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
upside down, huh?

Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.


> The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
> Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
> beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
> background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
> great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
> came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
> anyway. (not his fault)
>
> I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
> toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
> coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
> spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI

Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )

>
>
>> I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
>> for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
>> about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
>> yet...
>
> I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
> flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
> myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
> on the computer.

I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>
>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>> understand that sooner!
>
> Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

>
>
>> It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
>> my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
>> critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
>> upside down, huh?
>
> I think she wants to expand our knowledge of perspective. She has all
> sorts of interesting little chore drawings in the book. I have the
> older version, 1st ed, I believe.

Sounds like fun. I generally like "graded" exercises.

>
>
>> Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
>> could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
>> drawings here.
>
> Too many women, so little time...

You could even sketch people grok'ing if you want...


>
>
>>> The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
>>> Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
>>> beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
>>> background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
>>> great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
>>> came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
>>> anyway. (not his fault)
>>>
>>> I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
>>> toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
>>> coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
>>> spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI
>>
>> Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )
>
> Ooh, tacky!

There I was apologizing, then I noticed... That's really terrible! ;)


>
>
>>>> I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
>>>> for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
>>>> about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
>>>> yet...
>>>
>>> I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
>>> flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
>>> myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
>>> on the computer.
>>
>> I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
>> haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
>> Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.
>
> You'd rather be wooddorking than myoping around, eh?

Maybe you need to type a taping glass???



>
> --
> The more passions and desires one has,
> the more ways one has of being happy.
> -- Charlotte-Catherine

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
>> could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
>> drawings here.
>
> Too many women, so little time...


Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )


Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>>>> understand that sooner!
>>>
>>> Grok that.
>>
>> I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
>> I was someone surprised to find the word.
>
> Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
> excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time... I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
elsewhere).

Cheers,
Bill

Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 20, 3:38 pm, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>>>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>>>>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>
>>>>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>>>>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>>>>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>>>>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>>>>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>>>>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>>>>>> understand that sooner!
>>
>>>>> Grok that.
>>
>>>> I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
>>>> I was someone surprised to find the word.
>>
>>> Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
>>> excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_
>>
>> Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
>> "Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
>> putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
>> little time... I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
>> table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
>> elsewhere).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bill
>
> When I need a reference, I mostly refer back to my trusty Fundamentals
> Of Engineering Graphics.
> Cecil Jensen and Fred Mason
> McGraw-Hill Ryerson.
> ISBN 0-07-54929
>
> It was previously called Drafting Fundamentals. My original 1967 copy
> was replaced in 1988.
> It is seriously dated from a CAD perspective, but still a good book
> when it is time to come back down to earth.

I chose an edition (1966) without CAD on purpose, so the 30-40 year old
technology wouldn't distract me from the ideas I selected the book for.
The "constructions" (compass/triangle/straight-edge) are intriguing,
and it looks like the book will show me how to "print" my characters and
digits all over again. Looks like I'll have a 2nd chance to improve my
(lefty) handwriting. :)

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:56:43 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>> Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
>>>> could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
>>>> drawings here.
>>>
>>> Too many women, so little time...
>>
>>
>> Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
>> That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
>> maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
>> the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
>> sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )
>

>
> BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
> 'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
> context than a dictionary.

Nice to know. Thanks.

>
> P.S: I thought you didn't do animals...

I think I said I wasn't interested in *reading* about how to draw them.
in high school I spent a lot of time drawing fish (like trout and bass).
I did an oil painting of a moose back then that I'm still have pride in
(LOL). It's Definitely Not that I draw animals so well. I think I can
eke out an outline of just about anything you put before me at that
level of mediocrity that I described earlier. But I am not seeking to
invest time and energy in sketching beasts and fishes now. Not even
relatives!


>
> --
> Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

Larry Jaques wrote:

> BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
> 'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
> context than a dictionary.

If you would care to see something similar, with even more hp behind it,
visit: http://www.wolframalpha.com

Then type in say:

1) integrate sin(x)

or

2) your first name

or

3) population of Lansing

or something else...

Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

: I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

: A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
: anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
: in improving my skills in this area.

Same with me. I can draw and draft pretty easily (old style) for a front-on
view of things, but I am going to brush up on my perspective skills to do
other views. I've played with Sketchup,
but it sems terribly slow for doing an initial quick mock-up of a design idea.
The book I coincidentally bought yesterday seems quite good: Perspective Without Pain, by
Phil Metzger. It's quick and has practice drawingsof various things, including
boxes, tables, arches and cylindrical objects.


: Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
: contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
: paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
: drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
: IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
: and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!

I plan to try (once again) to learn Sktchup at some point, but I need to
be convinced it isn't a slow way to get the same result.


: Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
: term above.

My experience as well.

-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>
> : A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
> : anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
> : in improving my skills in this area.
>
> Same with me. I can draw and draft pretty easily (old style) for a front-on
> view of things, but I am going to brush up on my perspective skills to do
> other views. I've played with Sketchup,
> but it sems terribly slow for doing an initial quick mock-up of a design idea.
> The book I coincidentally bought yesterday seems quite good: Perspective Without Pain, by
> Phil Metzger. It's quick and has practice drawingsof various things, including
> boxes, tables, arches and cylindrical objects.

I hadn't run across that book. Based upon what I was able to browse, it
looks like a really good choice. One reviewer said that the title
"lied", which I don't think is a bad sign in this case.

>
>
> : Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
> : contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
> : paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
> : drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
> : IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
> : and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
>
> I plan to try (once again) to learn Sktchup at some point, but I need to
> be convinced it isn't a slow way to get the same result.

Well, based upon my experience, it will be ALOT Slower at first. Then,
after watching twenty something video lessons, putting in a few dozen
hours or practice,and maybe reading a book (not necessarily in that
order), it will be ALOT Faster.

I think if you play around with it like a toy, rather than needing to
get work done, it will come faster. For my practice, I regularly used
SU to create a simple house with a roof, door, window, etc., starting
from scratch every time. I suspect I can make one in under a minute
now. One can furnish it from the Google Warehouse. Somehow then it
becomes more time-consuming (resizing, rotating,...), but I'm becoming
more adept at that too. I'm sure I'll learn something new about SU on
every project I try.

I believe Leon and Swingman are the SU experts here. Someone here will
surely try to help you if you get stuck.

Cheers,
Bill


>
>
> : Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
> : term above.
>
> My experience as well.
>
> -- Andy Barss

>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>

>
>
>> "Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
>> putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
>> little time...
>
> Your wife reads these, does she?<giggle>

Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
if you don't know where they are: "Put them back when you're through
with them!"

Bill

Bill wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>
>>> "Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
>>> putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
>>> little time...
>>
>> Your wife reads these, does she?<giggle>

If you mean, does she read my newsgroup posts, then no. She has her own
computer and is more of a Facebok than a Usenet user. I crossed over
my normal boundary line in telling her about the green walnut
crotch...that ought to keep her away from here for good! lol ; )

>
> Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
> As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
> important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
> 10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
> know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
> a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
> if you don't know where they are: "Put them back when you're through
> with them!"
>
> Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>
>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>> interested in also doing color work.
>
> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
> the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
> probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
> most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
> sample pages to read at Amazon.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill


Thanks, Bill.

--
"I'm the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo ..."

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>
>>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>>> interested in also doing color work.
>>
>> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
>> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
>> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
>> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick
>> up the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it.
>> I'll probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to
>> me than most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of
>> it and sample pages to read at Amazon.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bill
>
>
> Thanks, Bill.
>

Your welcome. Another book that was mentioned here that complements both
"How To Draw What You See" and "How To Draw With The Right Side Of Your
Brain", is "Perspective Without Pain". I've got the latter on request
from my library. You can browse a bit of each of them at Amazon.com. I
think you can get a feel for them from the reviews people write too.
Happy sketching!

BTW, the LumberJocks.com website emailed me today to let me know they
are giving away $500 for the best birdhouse (by popular vote). Winning
starts with a good sketch. : )

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>>
>>>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>>>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>>>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>>>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>>>> interested in also doing color work.
>>>
>>> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
>>> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
>>> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
>>> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
>>> the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
>>> probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
>>> most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
>>> sample pages to read at Amazon.
>>
>> Thanks, Bill.
>
> An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
> David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
it? Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
once in while! : )

>
> Also check out books by Claudia Nice [watercolor, ink, and pen] and
> Lee Hammond [acrylics (my fave) and colored pencil drawing.] Both are
> prolific writers.
>
> --
> "Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
> There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
> indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
> of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
> the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
> the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
> virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
> mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
> --John Adams

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>>>>>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>>>>>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>>>>>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>>>>>> interested in also doing color work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
>>>>> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
>>>>> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
>>>>> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
>>>>> the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
>>>>> probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
>>>>> most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
>>>>> sample pages to read at Amazon.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Bill.
>>>
>>> An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
>>> David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.
>>
>> It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
>> review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
>> that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
>> it?
>
> It was a look at things from a whole different perspective. Kinda like
> reading a book by Krenov. Refreshing and thought-provoking.

I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
shake. And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )


>
>
>> Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
>>from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
>> sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
>> once in while! : )
>
> Ayup.

Oh, so now you're calling me a blind squirrel!
Maybe without my glasses.. : )

Bill

>
> --
> You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
> --Jack London

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I said:
>>> An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
>>> David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.
>>
>> It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
>> review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
>> that there is no "How To" in the book.
>
> I forgot to comment on the reviews: They should have stuck with their
> copies of Dumb and Dumberer. They obviously have no imagination.

Yeah, they are probably not Wreckers. IIRC, the 3rd reviewer actually
liked the book. I will keep my eyes open for it.

>
> --
> "Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
> There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
> indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
> of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
> the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
> the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
> virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
> mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
> --John Adams

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
>> shake.
>
> This is A Good Thing(tm), Bill. Lord Roy, Krenov, Eric Sloane (who
> wrote _A Reverence for Wood_), and maybe even Norm (of Normite fame)
> all did that for me. Roy and Eric were first.
>
>
>> And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
>> think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )
>
> Har! I can just hear you brainmumbling "See? I'm not the worst."

Har! You say worst like it's a bad thing. On my recent DP baseboard
project, I was building a drilling template so that I would place my
(relatively fancy) screws (3) consistently in the proper position at the
end of each of the five 2by8 boards.

I seemed to have trouble marking the exact center of the template, just
a short 2by8 board, with a knife. I was trying to mark it with my
Starrett combination square to the nearest 64th, or better (a little
joke). I never measured 64ths before or used a knife to mark wood and I
encountering difficulty. I ended up taking my bifocals off and got my
eyes right down there next to the knife and the rule and it occurred to
me that working like that was almost dangerous and that Mike or Larry
would probably acuse me of being A-R about it! About that time I
remembered to prop the rule up and I learned to use one eye due to my
astigmatism, which probably accounts for some of my difficulty. In
retrospect, using a 1 1/2" thick drilling template surely negated most
of my "precision" anyway, but that did not occur to me at the time. So,
I got a few good lessons from my unnecessary drilling template... BTW,
it really IS TRUE that a center-punch (or chisel, I guess) will find the
marks cut by a knife better than ones marked by a pencil! In fact, if
two cut lines cross you can center-punch their point of intersection
perfectly without even looking--and I enjoyed taking all of the
advantage of that...

Bill

On 6/24/2011 7:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
> measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
> with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
> jaw of the dial calipers. I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
> dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
> practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
> Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)

I do that all the time too. Why on earth hasn't somebody yet invented a good
woodworker's marking tool with a dial caliper gauge built into it?

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
> measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
> with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
> jaw of the dial calipers.

Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
wide to use!

Bill


I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
> dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
> practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
> Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)

Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
>> measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
>> with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
>> jaw of the dial calipers.
>
> Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
> sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
> wide to use!
>
> Bill
>
>
> I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
>> dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
>> practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
>> Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)


This technique is not good enough for the metal workers, huh? What's
wrong with 'em? LOL

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:30:13 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
>>>> measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
>>>> with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
>>>> jaw of the dial calipers.
>>>
>>> Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
>>> sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
>>> wide to use!
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>> I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
>>>> dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
>>>> practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
>>>> Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)
>>
>>
>> This technique is not good enough for the metal workers, huh? What's
>> wrong with 'em? LOL
>
> They want stuff, even wood, measured down to the tenths.
> No, no. We're talkin' 0.0001". Hmm, you'd probably get along with 'em.

Thanks, I assume you mean that as a compliment! : )
If your goal is to make stringed instruments, you need to position those
frets just right!

>
> --
> You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
> --Jack London

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:29:53 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Hey, hey hey. Save those detailed jobs for later on, once you have a
>> feel for this drawing/sketching thing, OK?
>
>
>I just returned from the used book store. There was not a (suitable)
>mechanical drawing book in the place.

I would't expect there to be. Free and cheap CAD programs took over
nearly thirty years ago.


>I did examine a book containing
>designs of woodworking projects. Looking at the drawings it contained
>made me appreciate much better the connection to mechanical drawing that
>you, Leon and Lew have been advocating. Many of the other drawing books
>had drawings of naked people in them without even one piece of
>furniture--let alone dove tail joinery!

Misogynists and Chauvinists could have detected same in those books.
<shameful grin>


>Someone told me that in college
>that the engineering students and the art students were on completely
>different parts of campus. That it was like 2 different worlds. Having
>examined the drawing books for myself, I understand that facts all that
>much better now... : )

Indeed. Engineering students are concerned with function while art
students are concerned only with form, to the exclusion of function.


>Thanks all for the drawing lesson!

Jewelcome.

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

Snip

>>> Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
>>> contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
>>> paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
>>> drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
>>> IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
>>> and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!
>>> Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
>>> term above.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I recall way back when I took drafting courses in school. Long before
>> computers, when drawings were done on a straight edged drawing board.
>> Add to that the t-square, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle and the
>> scale. With those simple tools and the help of dividers and a bow
>> compass we could draw just about any thing. Even more interesting was
>> knowing how to draw a perfect elipse with a bow compass and triangles.
>>
>> The first year class was very disciplined with lots of rules and lots of
>> lettering. The last quarter of that year we had to give up all the tools
>> except for the drawing board and pencil. All drawing till the end of the
>> year would be free hand. I was shocked as to how simple this seamed and
>> how accurate the drawings were considering every thing appeared very
>> close to scale.
>>
>
> I did minimal drafting in woodshop and metalshop classes in high school.
> My dad also had a drafting table set up at home for a few years before
> that and I experimented by trying to copy a few schematic diagrams I saw
> in a book (when I was about 13). I didn't have the discipline (or guidance
> or expertise) at the time to draw the diagrams as neat as the ones in the
> book. My dad was a civil engineer (though). I tried to read "Popular
> Electronics" from the school library every month--that was some of the
> "hardest reading" I did in those days. I believe Popular Electronics
> folded into Byte magazine around 1980 or so.
>
> Bill
>
>I still have my tools and drafting board from high school class in 1943.
>Still use them. At my age the computer programs are tough for me to
>comprehend. I also block print instead of curser. A couple weeks ago our
>grand daughter, eight years old saw me printing something that had the
>number 8. She informed me I did not know how to make an 8. I make it with 2
>little circles, same as on the keyboard I am using. She of course uses the
>curser as taught in school . Also Bill, I have many years of Popular
>Electronics magazines. WW
>
>
>

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:38:17 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
>>>>>> picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
>>>>>> perspective. DAMHIKT.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
>>>>> create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
>>>>> guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
>>>>> managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
>>>>> House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
>>>>> your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
>>>>> understand that sooner!
>>>>
>>>> Grok that.
>>>
>>> I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
>>> I was someone surprised to find the word.
>>
>> Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
>> excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_
>
>Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!

Look it up online at your local library.


>"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
>putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
>little time...

Your wife reads these, does she? <giggle>


>I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
>table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
>elsewhere).

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:04:57 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>WW wrote:
>
>>> I still have my tools and drafting board from high school class in 1943.
>>> Still use them. At my age the computer programs are tough for me to
>>> comprehend. I also block print instead of curser. A couple weeks ago our
>>> grand daughter, eight years old saw me printing something that had the
>>> number 8. She informed me I did not know how to make an 8. I make it with 2
>>> little circles, same as on the keyboard I am using. She of course uses the
>>> curser as taught in school . Also Bill, I have many years of Popular
>>> Electronics magazines. WW
>
>Small world, my teachers got after me when I was about 8 for not writing
>8 the cursive way too. My school shop teachers insisted on block
>printing even in things like material lists. If there's a lesson there,
>it must be that it's hard to please everyone! By the way, the article I
>mentioned earlier was written by Michael Fortune, and I'm no one to
>2nd-guess him!

Remember, Grasshoppa, just because someone is writing for a magazine
does not make them a Master, and one way is not the only way. Look at
the vast theoretical and practical differences between the finish
masters Jewitt, Dresdner, and Flexner. Compare Lord Roy and that
plaid-shirted clown with the funny accent. <gd&r>

--
To know the road ahead, ask those coming back.
-- Chinese Proverb

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 22:04:46 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
>>>>>>> Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
>>>>>>> was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
>>>>>>> including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
>>>>>>> interested in also doing color work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
>>>>>> Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
>>>>>> craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
>>>>>> I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
>>>>>> the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
>>>>>> probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
>>>>>> most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
>>>>>> sample pages to read at Amazon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Bill.
>>>>
>>>> An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
>>>> David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.
>>>
>>> It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
>>> review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
>>> that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
>>> it?
>>
>> It was a look at things from a whole different perspective. Kinda like
>> reading a book by Krenov. Refreshing and thought-provoking.
>
>I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
>shake.

This is A Good Thing(tm), Bill. Lord Roy, Krenov, Eric Sloane (who
wrote _A Reverence for Wood_), and maybe even Norm (of Normite fame)
all did that for me. Roy and Eric were first.


>And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
>think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )

Har! I can just hear you brainmumbling "See? I'm not the worst."


>>> Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
>>>from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
>>> sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
>>> once in while! : )
>>
>> Ayup.
>
>Oh, so now you're calling me a blind squirrel!
>Maybe without my glasses.. : )

Oh, I thought you were talking about me. Never mind. ;)


P.S: The god of wood known as Lord Roy actually goes by the name Roy
Underhill.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London