Shop wiring

>
> All comments and suggestions appreciated.
>
> Ivan Vegvary

Sounds like a great setup.

For my recent build-out I ran some cables overhead (I have a 30' high
barn roof/celling) so I could run cords and drop in from overhead to
machines out in the middle of the floor. I added a few extra loops of
cord hanging at the machines so I can unfurl it and roll the machine
around the shop when needed.

> I think that with a devoted shop and all of that equipment that while=20
> not completely necessary a subpanel located in the shop would be a very=
=20
> nice convenience.

Keith, I have an existing sub-panel right around the corner at the end of t=
he 36' space. HOWEVER, you are right, it would be convenient and much eas=
ier to run a single feed to a more centrally located panel. Would also pro=
bably save on wire costs. Thanks!

Ivan Vegvary

Agreed. Put the outlets well above the workbench surface. You want
to minimize contact of any items/tools, on the surface, with any cords
being plugged into the outlets.

Installing upper cabinets above any workbenchs or other lower
cabinets? Put the outlets just below the upper cabinets.

You may want to, later, consider installing lights on the underside of
upper cabinets. Do any wiring prep, now, if convenient.

Sonny

Larry Jaques wrote:

>
> I'm with Ed. 4' spacing and 52" above the floor (bottom of outlet),
> so you have clearance for sheet goods. I ran 2 240v outlets, too. Two
> together on one long wall, one on the other long wall. 75' of 10/3
> extension cording became three 25' pigtails on table saw, bandsaw, and
> DC. It can be run overhead or behind the scenes as needed.

Yupper - Extension cord is the cheapest way to make power cords that size.
It's common to see 10ga cords on sale at HD or HF, and it saves a lot over
buying the SJ and ends.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Twayne wrote:

>
> If I might add a couple thoughts:
> -- Well labeled for serving breakers

Yup - the best, and the most overlooked thought...

> -- Each box with 220 in it can split off to single 110 so if you
> ever need to ad a 110, it should be easy to do if there are enough
> 220's

Sorry, but that does not make any sense. The word "box" becomes debulous.
Maybe you can expand on what you're really trying to say.

> . -- Single, Dedicated breaker or breaker pair for ALL
> equipment.

For some equipment - but why for "all" equipment? It would be foolish to
put a single breaker for everything to be used in a shop.


> Never allow a light to go out if a tool pops a breaker on
> either 110 or 220.

Agreed - never allow a tool to create darkness.

> -- Use no 14 ga; 12 or heavier throughout.

A man after my own heart! But - that's a preference, and not a requirement.

> -- Keep good track of your neutrals & how they pair with their hots;
> do not spread them out!

That is simple electrical code.

> -- You might be too far along for this once, but have a MAINS switch
> to the shop that will kill ALL power in the shop in case any get left
> on accidentally.

There is good reason for this (sometimes), but it's not that universal of a
requirement. Why do this?

> I used a couple of 4-pole shop switches for this
> except for lights; they can be turned on/off independently. Same for
> garage door opener, which power runs thru the shop.
> -- Don't forget well placed GFCs.

Well, that makes a convenience for you - though it does not constitute a
mandate or even a code compliant, or a real safety requirement. If not well
thought through, it may not even make a safe design. Not suggesting your
idea is unsafe, just commenting on the fact that simple statements like this
are often unfounded, do not comply with code, and do not really offer any
safety benefit. There's an awful lot of needless stuff done by people who
think it will add to wiring safety, which in fact do no such thing.

>
> Thin wall conduit is an excellent choice and makes maintenance later
> on a breeze! Plus it's not very expensive. Do not rely on it for an
> earth ground though; still use a third green/bare wire for all
> equipment. A fish tape s worth its weight in gold.

Agreed!


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Dear confused,
The shop has its own service (3phase) and already has two sub-panels. Howe=
ver, in the interest of saving wire I will install an additional sub-panel =
within the area. I would rather penetrate the area once with, say, 1" or 1=
-1/2" conduit than penetrate four or five times with half inch conduit. Of=
course I could simply put in a 12" or so junction box, but gosh, panels ar=
e almost less expensive than boxes. About $30 at HD. I already have tons =
of compatible breakers.
Thanks for your comments.

Ivan Vegvary

On 11/30/2011 7:43 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 11/29/2011 10:06 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You don't mention a subpanel. With the number of 240v loads you
>>> have, you'll probably need one.
>>
>> Not sure why you assume that Scott. The number of 240v loads has
>> nothing at
>> all to do with the need for a sub-panel.
>>
>
> I think that with a devoted shop and all of that equipment that while
> not completely necessary a subpanel located in the shop would be a very
> nice convenience.

Assumptions being made that perhaps are not warranted. He said this is
basically a 12x36 partitioning off of his main shop. Could it be that
the entire shop is serviced by its own service panel?

In my case, a much smaller shop within my garage, I have a 100A service
panel fed right from the meter can - no sub-panels and three 240v
circuit in addition to everything else.

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

> Will be moving in the following equipment:
Table saw, Radial arm saw, 8" jointer, 5HP Planer moulder, chop saw
with stand, 6' workbench, 12" bandsaw, vacuum dust collector & 14 used
kitchen cabinets.
------------------------------------
Is that 5 HP moulder a single phase or a three phase load?

Lew

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>
>> You don't mention a subpanel. With the number of 240v loads you
>> have, you'll probably need one.
>
>Not sure why you assume that Scott. The number of 240v loads has nothing at
>all to do with the need for a sub-panel.

If i recall the code correctly, each 240v appliance must be on a separate
branch circuit. In a garage shop, one could probably get away with
wiring two or three outlets on a 240v branch circuit, but it would not
be code compliant. Given that the majority of residential service entrance
panels are pretty close to full, a subpanel is usually required in these
cases, if only to reduce the amount of AWG 10 needed for the shaper and heater.

scott

Scott Lurndal wrote:

>
> You don't mention a subpanel. With the number of 240v loads you
> have, you'll probably need one.

Not sure why you assume that Scott. The number of 240v loads has nothing at
all to do with the need for a sub-panel.

> The heater should be on a separate circuit. You might
> be able to get away with the TS, Jointer and shaper on a single
> circuit so long as you don't use them all at the same time. (the
> shaper will require a 30A branch circuit (as will the heater if you
> go 5KVA).
>

Again - not sure he's suggesting putting everything on one circuit.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Check your receptacle heights over your kitchen counters. I would imagine a
workbench or surface would want to be similar, in height. If you grab a
counter top it may have a backsplash on it too and your receptacle height
may be behind it.


-------------
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:3535186.190.1322543088421.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnh1...

Finishing up my 'woodshop' area within my larger shop. Size is about
12'x36'.

Will be moving in the following equipment:
Table saw, Radial arm saw, 8" jointer, 5HP Planer moulder, chop saw with
stand, 6' workbench, 12" bandsaw, vacuum dust collector & 14 used kitchen
cabinets.

Want to do some pre-wiring even though I don't know the final layout. All
the walls are 7/16" oriented strandboard, painted white. Will hang 8 4-tube
flourescents. Lights will all be on one switch, however like in my other
shop areas, I install pull (string pull) switches on every fixture so I am
only using light where needed.

Will be doing all my wiring in surface mounted conduit. Got the knack of
bending it and got loads of 12ga stranded wire on the cheap at garage sales.

Anyway, I'm tempted to put 4plex outlets say about every 5 feet along all
the walls. Outlets would be about 36" off the floor thereby being below any
cabinets but above typical counter height. I also plan to pull some 10ga
through some of the conduit, drop off some extra empty 4x4 boxes wired for
220v. The moulder runs better on 220 and I'll probably need 3-5000 watts of
electrical heat. Obviously the table saw will sit somewhere in the middle
of the floor and I will have an extra run couduit along the length of the
ceiling ready for 220v.

Short of doing a detailed layout of all the equipment I'm hoping the above
will leave me with opportunity to change my mind many times.

NOTE: I'm not an avid woodworker but merely trying to make a separation
between my metal machining equipment and this messy 'wood' stuff.

All comments and suggestions appreciated.

Ivan Vegvary

Ivan Vegvary <[email protected]> writes:
>Finishing up my 'woodshop' area within my larger shop. Size is about 12'x3=
>6'. =20
>

>Will be doing all my wiring in surface mounted conduit. Got the knack of b=
>ending it and got loads of 12ga stranded wire on the cheap at garage sales.=

Hmm. Not many homeowners use #12 THHN, nor do they use stranded as a rule. Are
you sure the wire wasn't *hot*?

The most useful outlet in my shop is the 25' retractable cube-tap mounted to
the ceiling in the center of the shop.

You don't mention a subpanel. With the number of 240v loads you have, you'll
probably need one. The heater should be on a separate circuit. You might
be able to get away with the TS, Jointer and shaper on a single circuit so long
as you don't use them all at the same time. (the
shaper will require a 30A branch circuit (as will the heater if you go 5KVA).

scott

Scott Lurndal wrote:

>
> If i recall the code correctly, each 240v appliance must be on a
> separate branch circuit. In a garage shop, one could probably get
> away with
> wiring two or three outlets on a 240v branch circuit, but it would not
> be code compliant.

Not true at all. Think about baseboard heaters - there can be many
(depending upon total load) on one branch circuit.). Your recollection is
incorrect. Happens to all of us. Just ask me...


> Given that the majority of residential service
> entrance panels are pretty close to full, a subpanel is usually
> required in these cases, if only to reduce the amount of AWG 10
> needed for the shaper and heater.

I'm not sure that the majority of residential services are pretty close to
full - and I've done a lot of add-on and rewire work, I'll at least give you
this point. The issue is that though, and not one of the number of 240v
runs. That's all I was trying to say earlier. As to the amount of 10ga
runs - that will not change regardless of whether there is a subpanel or
not. As long as the primary panel has space, and it is convenient to do so,
then a run from it is every bit as proper as a run to a sub-panel. Sub
panels accomodate increased need for branches and nothing else. Purely a
space for the breakers thing.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:04:48 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Anyway, I'm tempted to put 4plex outlets say about every 5 feet along all the walls. Outlets would be about 36" off the floor

I'd put them at 48". My workbench is about 36" or so and I want them
to be above it. If you plan to lean any sheet stock against the
wall, make them 50" high.

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 05:53:26 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:04:48 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Anyway, I'm tempted to put 4plex outlets say about every 5 feet along all the walls. Outlets would be about 36" off the floor
>
>I'd put them at 48". My workbench is about 36" or so and I want them
>to be above it. If you plan to lean any sheet stock against the
>wall, make them 50" high.

I'm with Ed. 4' spacing and 52" above the floor (bottom of outlet),
so you have clearance for sheet goods. I ran 2 240v outlets, too. Two
together on one long wall, one on the other long wall. 75' of 10/3
extension cording became three 25' pigtails on table saw, bandsaw, and
DC. It can be run overhead or behind the scenes as needed.

--
In an industrial society which confuses work and productivity, the
necessity of producing has always been an enemy of the desire to create.
-- Raoul Vaneigem

On 11/29/2011 10:06 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>
>> You don't mention a subpanel. With the number of 240v loads you
>> have, you'll probably need one.
>
> Not sure why you assume that Scott. The number of 240v loads has nothing at
> all to do with the need for a sub-panel.
>

I think that with a devoted shop and all of that equipment that while
not completely necessary a subpanel located in the shop would be a very
nice convenience.

In news:3535186.190.1322543088421.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnh1,
Ivan Vegvary <[email protected]> typed:
> Finishing up my 'woodshop' area within my larger shop.
> Size is about 12'x36'.
>
> Will be moving in the following equipment:
> Table saw, Radial arm saw, 8" jointer, 5HP Planer
> moulder, chop saw with stand, 6' workbench, 12" bandsaw,
> vacuum dust collector & 14 used kitchen cabinets.
>
> Want to do some pre-wiring even though I don't know the
> final layout. All the walls are 7/16" oriented
> strandboard, painted white. Will hang 8 4-tube
> flourescents. Lights will all be on one switch, however
> like in my other shop areas, I install pull (string pull)
> switches on every fixture so I am only using light where
> needed.
>
> Will be doing all my wiring in surface mounted conduit.
> Got the knack of bending it and got loads of 12ga
> stranded wire on the cheap at garage sales.
>
> Anyway, I'm tempted to put 4plex outlets say about every
> 5 feet along all the walls. Outlets would be about 36"
> off the floor thereby being below any cabinets but above
> typical counter height. I also plan to pull some 10ga
> through some of the conduit, drop off some extra empty
> 4x4 boxes wired for 220v. The moulder runs better on 220
> and I'll probably need 3-5000 watts of electrical heat.
> Obviously the table saw will sit somewhere in the middle
> of the floor and I will have an extra run couduit along
> the length of the ceiling ready for 220v.
>
> Short of doing a detailed layout of all the equipment I'm
> hoping the above will leave me with opportunity to change
> my mind many times.
>
> NOTE: I'm not an avid woodworker but merely trying to
> make a separation between my metal machining equipment
> and this messy 'wood' stuff.
>
> All comments and suggestions appreciated.
>
> Ivan Vegvary

If I might add a couple thoughts:
-- Well labeled for serving breakers
-- Each box with 220 in it can split off to single 110 so if you ever need
to ad a 110, it should be easy to do if there are enough 220's.
-- Single, Dedicated breaker or breaker pair for ALL equipment. Never allow
a light to go out if a tool pops a breaker on either 110 or 220.
-- Use no 14 ga; 12 or heavier throughout.
-- Keep good track of your neutrals & how they pair with their hots; do not
spread them out!
-- You might be too far along for this once, but have a MAINS switch to the
shop that will kill ALL power in the shop in case any get left on
accidentally. I used a couple of 4-pole shop switches for this except for
lights; they can be turned on/off independently. Same for garage door
opener, which power runs thru the shop.
-- Don't forget well placed GFCs.

Thin wall conduit is an excellent choice and makes maintenance later on a
breeze! Plus it's not very expensive. Do not rely on it for an earth ground
though; still use a third green/bare wire for all equipment.
A fish tape s worth its weight in gold.

Good luck!

Twayne`