I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.
Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.
I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.
I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.
I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.
-John
Donnie Vazquez wrote:
> John Girouard wrote:
>
> > I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
> > operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
> > occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
> > release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
> > not willing to test that theory.
> >
> > -John
> >
>
> I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
> here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
> away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
> board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
> to some pretty pics :-)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/a7edu
>
> --
> Donnie Vazquez
> Sunderland, MD
according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.
RayV wrote:
> I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
> build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
> strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
>
> I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d
45 seems a bit steep for a french cleat. it's enough that the cabinet
is trying to wedge the cleat off of the wall. I generally go more like
20 or 30 degrees. you really just need to keep the cabinet from
shifting forward off of the cleat.
> and put the fence on the
> left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
> the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
> blade and the fence on the right.
>
> Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
> I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
> so good, or so I thought.
sounds right so far.
>
> I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
> because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
> piece through from the back of the saw.
>
> I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
> buying a new tool.
as long as your featherboards are set up right, this is just fine. it's
a method I use with lots of stationary machinery, not just the table
saw.
> >>>I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
> >>>sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
> >>>guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
> >>>impunity.
> >>
> hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
> happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
> the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE? At least with a
> kickback when one is standing WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, their hand
> won't be drawn into the blade. The worse that would happen is a blunt
> force injury or damage to items in the shop from the resultant airborne
> missile. But no AMPUTATION.
>
if the workpiece was short, I'd say there was danger of having your
hands pulled into the blade in case of a kickback. but then, if the
board was short, he wouldn't have had to go around and pull in the
first place. ripping short boards is always risky. but this was a long
board. with a long board, pulling from the back, you are far enough
from the blade that the wood is gonna get pulled out of your hands
first.
second, he was using a featherboard. while I suppose it is possible to
get a kickback with a featherboard, kickback prevention is one of the
things that featherboards are designed to prevent.
besides, where was it written that you gotta stand in a certain place
only when you use a saw. where I'm SUPPOSED TO BE is where _I_ decide
is safe/effective for the operation at hand. with appropriate stock
control I stop feed and change position frequently with some operations
and have for years with no AMPUTATIONs.
Seems like the consensus, if there is one, is this:
"If it feels safe to you, then it IS safe"
I didn't feel safe making the cut the way I did, so I guess I will
need to figure out a better way next time. For the record, it wasn't
pulling the piece from the back that didn't feel right. I have
pulled wood through numerous times before without feeling
uncomfortable. It also wasn't ripping a board at 45d that didn't
feel right. I have done this before with shorter but wider boards.
It was the combination of everything that didn't feel right:
Feather board close to blade
Narrow board I couldn't use a push stick on
Angled rip cut
Board didn't hang off the edge of my outfeed table before I had to
pull it
So, next time I will have to do it differently so I feel safe.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Rodney King
> >>>I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
> >>>operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
> >>>occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
> >>>release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
> >>>not willing to test that theory.
> >>
> >>I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
> >>here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
> >>away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
> >>board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
> >>to some pretty pics :-)
> >
> > according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
> > this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
> > different animal.
> >
> No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
> was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
> into the blade.
but _he_ was standing in front of the saw. there is a huge difference
between standing in front of the saw and reaching over the blade and
standing behind the saw and pulling a board through a featherboard.
you're being deliberately obtuse, BAD.
Bay Area David wrote:
> I doubt you are taking into account how your arms would move during the
> split second of shock you would feel when there is an explosive
> kickback--the sudden noise and movement could cause you to involuntarily
> move your hand into a dangerous spot--namely the blade. THAT'S why I
> continue to insist that dragging a board through from the rear isn't
> such a hot idea. Obviously we disagree on this point... :)
>
> Dave
the danger reflex is to pull your hands in close to your body. if you
are in front of the saw reaching over the blade, that would put your
hands through the blade. if you are behind the saw, pulling a rip
through, the danger reflex moves your hands away from the blade.
RayV wrote:
> Seems like the consensus, if there is one, is this:
>
> "If it feels safe to you, then it IS safe"
>
> I didn't feel safe making the cut the way I did, so I guess I will
> need to figure out a better way next time. For the record, it wasn't
> pulling the piece from the back that didn't feel right. I have
> pulled wood through numerous times before without feeling
> uncomfortable. It also wasn't ripping a board at 45d that didn't
> feel right. I have done this before with shorter but wider boards.
>
> It was the combination of everything that didn't feel right:
> Feather board close to blade
> Narrow board I couldn't use a push stick on
> Angled rip cut
> Board didn't hang off the edge of my outfeed table before I had to
> pull it
>
> So, next time I will have to do it differently so I feel safe.
>
> "Can't we all just get along?"
> Rodney King
here's a sequence that might work better for you. first rip the board
an inch or so wider than you need. then tilt the saw and rip bevel on
one edge. increment the fence as necessary, flip the board and rip
bevel on the other. return the saw to 90 degrees and rip down the
center.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:02:31 -0400, Donnie Vazquez
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
>board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
>most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
>top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
>in the blink of an eye.
Nevertheless, what you were doing and what the OP was doing are two
entirely different operations. I stand by my assertion that it is not
possible for one's hand(s) to be pulled into the blade from a kickback
while pulling the work through from the back of the saw, your
experience under completely circumstances notwithstanding..
It's the same reason I was taught not to ever have one's hands on the
workpiece over the cutterhead when operating a jointer. Kickback,
board goes, hand stays, love grows...oops, a '60s flashback there.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:58:34 -0700, nospambob <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.
He's never had a guard or splitter on the saw (nor do 98% of
wreckers), but please cite the episode of The New Yankee Workshop in
which you saw him free hand crosscut.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
Battleax wrote:
> "RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
>>build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
>>strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
>>
>>I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
>>left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
>>the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
>>blade and the fence on the right.
>>
>>Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
>>I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
>>so good, or so I thought.
>>
>>I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
>>because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
>>piece through from the back of the saw.
>>
>>I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
>>buying a new tool.
>>
>
>
> So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?
>
>
think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
Dave
"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
> build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
> strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
>
> I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
> left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
> the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
> blade and the fence on the right.
>
> Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
> I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
> so good, or so I thought.
>
> I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
> because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
> piece through from the back of the saw.
>
> I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
> buying a new tool.
>
Push blocks. Narrow versions of what came with your jointer. Pieces of 3/4
stock, for instance, cut with handholds fore and aft, three-four inches
above the flat portion. Glue a chunk of mouse pad or other resilient
material to the flat bottom of one to use as both hold and push, leave a
1/4" hook on the heel of the other for the final.
Paint them some flashy color so they won't just look like another piece of
scrap and store them with your other push sticks on a shelf right of the saw
where you can grab one as required even if you forgot to preposition them.
Right next to the featherboards, for instance.
"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> LRod wrote:
>
> snip
>
>> Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.
>>
> You go first. :)
>
> Dave
I may be sorry I jumped in here... but here goes.
He wasn't suggesting you use a saw, just another person . You hold the
board, someone else pulls it out of your hands.
No one around? <GD&R>
Tom
"bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> RayV wrote:
>> I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
>> build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
>> strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
<snippage>
>
>
> as long as your featherboards are set up right, this is just fine. it's
> a method I use with lots of stationary machinery, not just the table
> saw.
>
A breath of fresh air, succinct and well stated!
Tom
(who also is guilty of pulling his piece(s) occasionally
{Don't even go there}
Tom
"Donnie Vazquez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand was
>>>pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn into
>>>the blade.
>>
>>
>> Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.
>>
>> OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
>> a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
>> the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
>> occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
>> the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
>> momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
>> drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
>> defies physics and logic.
>>
Physiology supplies a good explanation. The muscles of the arm contracted
as the initial whack was felt - basic reflex. Hand and arm go toward the
body, blade in between.
A smaller diameter push stick - I know cats only come furry and round but a
bit of broom handle will do - even if you cut it on the rip.
Alternately, cut the length of stock overlength then you can poke it in far
enough for the piece you want to cut on the angle.
Turn the saw off and retract it & cut the length back to what you want.
Good luck.
Jock
"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
| build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
| strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
|
| I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
| left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
| the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
| blade and the fence on the right.
|
| Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
| I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
| so good, or so I thought.
|
| I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
| because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
| piece through from the back of the saw.
|
| I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
| buying a new tool.
|
Unlikely and not possible are two different things.
I think in the example given the operator had enough mechanical control over
(from featherboards) the board that kickback would be very unlikely. But
for now lets just look at pulling the board through in general.
I agree that it's very unlikely that you'd be pulled into the saw horror
movie style, however there is still a chance that the board could 'move'
your hands towards or into the blade.
I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent mom's
tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of the
saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.
I think it would depend on many factors: like how far behind the blade you
are holding the board, other safety equipment being used... Blah, blah,
blah... What it comes down to is ensuring that we are safe at our saws.
It's not enough to 'feel safe' and play the 'it's unlikely to happen game',
we must ask ourselves two basic questions: Where are my fingers? & In
which position do we have the most control of the work piece? Ultimatley if
we control the work peice and don't run our fingers into the blade we should
have a safe cut. There are lots of people that don't use splitter or guards
that do it everyday.
Safe Sawing
Buster
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:02:31 -0400, Donnie Vazquez
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
>>board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
>>most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
>>top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
>>in the blink of an eye.
>
> Nevertheless, what you were doing and what the OP was doing are two
> entirely different operations. I stand by my assertion that it is not
> possible for one's hand(s) to be pulled into the blade from a kickback
> while pulling the work through from the back of the saw, your
> experience under completely circumstances notwithstanding..
>
> It's the same reason I was taught not to ever have one's hands on the
> workpiece over the cutterhead when operating a jointer. Kickback,
> board goes, hand stays, love grows...oops, a '60s flashback there.
>
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
> sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
> guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
> impunity.
I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1). If it's
a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go past the
end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2). If that doesn't
happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure off the edge of
the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3) There's also the
possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting the blade, causing
him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).
In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
problems as far as I'm concerned.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
> the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
> unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
> place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly
It's not completely stable. As well, I've left wood unattended for a few
seconds while the blade is spining. It's often burned the wood or otherwise
marred a clean edge.
> How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
> end of the fence at the beginning of the cut?
When you're in front pushing the board through, one can safely put a little
lateral pressure against the fence. When you're pulling it out from the
back, you can only grab it to pull when it's past the table edge and beyond
the fence a little after that. A little sideways lateral pulling the wrong
way and it's skewed.
> How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
> the board at the infeed side?
When you're in front, you can push it onto an outfeed table. When you're in
back, you're in front of the outfeed table aren't you? If you're pushing it
from the side, it's more of an awkward motion. (and yes, I've done it
before)
> Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
> started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.
You'd be completely wrong. I do all my cutting from one position without
moving around, but not for any of the reasons that you might consider. As
well, this is all about control. Walking around while feeding (or pulling a
board) through a tablesaw is increasing the chances for something
unfortunate to happen. And yes, I know some do it all the time.
Something else has occurred to me too. Considering the rotation direction of
the blade, unless you're using an enclosed cabinet saw with a full dust
cover over the blade, you're going be exposed to various bits of wood dust
and splinters shooting up in your direction if you're at the back of the
saw.
> shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
> that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
> imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
> that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.
Sure there are other methods that can be considered safe, but consider this.
Tablesaws have been around for a long time. If pulling a board through a saw
was comparably safe as pushing one through, there would be quite a few more
people advocating it than there are. Until I hear from a number of those
people, your single (so far) support for pulling from the back isn't going
to cut it for me. No offence is intended against you with this statement.
LRod wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
>>happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
>>the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?
>
>
> Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
> off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
> prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
> that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
> sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..
>
did you read Donnie's post? I rest my case...
Dave
LRod wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
>>happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
>>the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?
>
>
> Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
> off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
> prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
> that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
> sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..
>
Tell you what. Why don't you run an experiment to test your hypothesis?
If it fails, have someone type up the results for us.
Dave
bridger wrote:
> Donnie Vazquez wrote:
>
>>John Girouard wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
>>>operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
>>>occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
>>>release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
>>>not willing to test that theory.
>>>
>>>-John
>>>
>>
>>I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
>>here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
>>away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
>>board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
>>to some pretty pics :-)
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/a7edu
>>
>>--
>>Donnie Vazquez
>>Sunderland, MD
>
>
> according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
> this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
> different animal.
>
No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
into the blade.
Dave
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> >WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
> >pushstick.
>
> WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
> the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
> fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
> pushing.
>
I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
about 1/4" of backward movement.
And since they hold the board down and against the fence, "kickback" is
just about impossible - "pushback" is as bad as it gets, and as I
said,that's limited to about 1/4".
--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
> > the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
> > that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
> > about 1/4" of backward movement.
> >
> I once considered those, but I do too many narrow ripping operations for
> a push stick to clear the wheels. Otherwise they look like an effective
> safety addition to a TS.
>
Mine just clamp onto the rip fence, so it's fairly easy to
remove them when required. A lot of times I just flip them
up.
--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever
I was doing this with some pine I was ripping down.
When I got to the core the wood was quite weak. The saw grabbed it and shot
it across the room. Wow. I was surprised. But then again I was on the other
side so my heart was hardly beating any faster. It did NOT suck me into the
saw.
This discussion is silly. People pull wood through tablesaws all the time.
It is no less safe than pushing it.
-j
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>>> >Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>>> >forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand
>>> >into
>>> >the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through?
>>> >DOH!
>>>
>>> See my response to your other post.
>>>
>>> Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
>>
>>
>>I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time
>>with
>>longer pieces of wood.
>
> I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
> didn't and wouldn't.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
> build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
> strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
>
> I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
> left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
> the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
> blade and the fence on the right.
>
> Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
> I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
> so good, or so I thought.
>
> I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
> because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
> piece through from the back of the saw.
>
> I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
> buying a new tool.
>
So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
> > I would be pulling a board from the
> > outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
> > that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
> > the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
> > since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
> > long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.
David wrote:
> in that case you aren't any where near the blade, so of course you'd be
> spared a mishap.
Just like the OP....
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
snip
>
>
> Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
> with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
> circumstances)
consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?
Dave
Sorry, I wrote this a little later at night. I will reiterate a little.
You are mostly correct, in the example given I would say you are 99% correct
(I never say 100%). It is VERY unlikely given the fact that the operator in
the original post was in any danger. Considering he used feather boards to
hold the piece in and down it would be unlikely to get kickback in the first
place. The only real 'danger' is when he lets go of the board to move into
his new position behind the table saw.
I agree too that you would have no chance to be pulled into the blade, I
however carefully used the word 'move' rather than pull. If you were
pulling through a smaller board (I left this out and it is an important
point), a kickback could bring your hands in contact with the blade. The
twisting and the lifting would have the effect of pushing the board into
your hands, while at the same point you would have in your mind to push
down. This is a case of looking beyond physics and looking at the body
reaction.
With a longer board, with your hands off the table you are correct and the
danger is small.
However I will maintain this is not a safe way to use the table saw.
1. There is no safe way to start a cut by pulling, which mean the board
will be unattended at some point.
2. Without a featherboard there is no way to maintain pressure against the
fence without reaching over the blade. If your were to apply pressure on
the back you'd be pinching the blade (or splitter) which would not be good.
Plus putting pressure when the end of the board is off the table would
essentially be levering it against the fence. Judgeing by the number of
posters who don't use splitters, I doubt many people use faetherboards.
3. Why bother when you can just use a pushstick.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:18:13 GMT, "Buster" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
>>this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent
>>mom's
>>tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
>>for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
>>jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
>>applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
>>kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of
>>the
>>saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.
>
> I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
> to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
> analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
> gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
> Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
> impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
> in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
> swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
>to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
>analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
>gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
>Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
>impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
>in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
>swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.
>
Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:40:16 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>
>>>Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
>>>with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
>>>circumstances)
>>
>>consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
>>situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
>>and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
>>hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
>>COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> Well, in any scenario in which I would be pulling a board from the
> outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
> that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
> the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
> since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
> long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.
>
>
>
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
in that case you aren't any where near the blade, so of course you'd be
spared a mishap.
"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
>
> snip
> >
> >
> > Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
> > with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
> > circumstances)
> consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
> situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
> and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
> hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
> COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?
>
> Dave
But you ARE pulling parallel to the ground. There is no other way to pull
it. The table prevents you from pulling down, and common sense prevents you
from lifting it up.
Note: you only pull after you have something on the back side of the blade
to pull on. That is you have pushed halfway through and then pull the rest
of the way.
Also, your hand is typically on the side of the wood so it is on top and the
bottom at the same time.
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:18:13 GMT, "Buster" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
>this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent mom's
>tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
>for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
>jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
>applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
>kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of the
>saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.
I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:40:16 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>>
>> Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
>> with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
>> circumstances)
>consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
>situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
>and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
>hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
>COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?
>
>Dave
Well, in any scenario in which I would be pulling a board from the
outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
LRod wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:21:24 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
>>>sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
>>>guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
>>>impunity.
>>
>>I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
>>to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1).
>
>
> When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
> the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
> unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
> place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly
> susceptible to any forces the saw might otherwise impart while it's
> not moving, safe.
>
>
>>If it's a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go
>>past the end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2).
>
>
> How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
> end of the fence at the beginning of the cut? Think quality of
> operator technique.
>
>
>>If that doesn't happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure
>>off the edge of the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3)
>
>
> How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
> the board at the infeed side? Think quality of operator technique.
>
>
>>There's also the possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting
>>the blade, causing him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).
>
>
> Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
> started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.
>
>
>>In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
>>control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
>>problems as far as I'm concerned.
>
>
> Well, you're certainly entitled to your assessment, and no one can
> dictate what practices YOU should feel safe with and implement in YOUR
> shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
> that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
> imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
> that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.
>
> Moreover, I learned in a discussion on another forum that sometimes
> other factors are involved. I was in a table saw safety discussion
> with someone, thinking we were on the same page so far as basic
> premises were concerned, until the other party revealed that he was so
> afraid of using his saw that he bought a power feeder for it. That
> changed the entire tenor of the discussion. Well, ended it actually.
> There wasn't any point in me continuing.
>
>
hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE? At least with a
kickback when one is standing WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, their hand
won't be drawn into the blade. The worse that would happen is a blunt
force injury or damage to items in the shop from the resultant airborne
missile. But no AMPUTATION.
Dave
bridger wrote:
>
> but _he_ was standing in front of the saw. there is a huge difference
> between standing in front of the saw and reaching over the blade and
> standing behind the saw and pulling a board through a featherboard.
> you're being deliberately obtuse, BAD.
>
You can use your saw in any manner you see fit.
You are being deliberately rude, but you already knew that, didn't you?
Dave
LRod wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
> off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
> prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
> that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
> sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..
>
I've seen the trick and have even tried it. I prefer to keep my china
and fingers intact.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
(Remove -SPAM- to send email)
mogura wrote:
> I was doing this with some pine I was ripping down.
> When I got to the core the wood was quite weak. The saw grabbed it and shot
> it across the room. Wow. I was surprised. But then again I was on the other
> side so my heart was hardly beating any faster. It did NOT suck me into the
> saw.
>
> This discussion is silly. People pull wood through tablesaws all the time.
> It is no less safe than pushing it.
>
> -j
>
>
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>>>>>Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>>>>>forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand
>>>>>into
>>>>>the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through?
>>>>>DOH!
>>>>
>>>>See my response to your other post.
>>>>
>>>>Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time
>>>with
>>>longer pieces of wood.
>>
>>I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
>>didn't and wouldn't.
>>
>>--
>>LRod
>>
>>Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>>
>>Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>>
>>http://www.woodbutcher.net
>>
>>Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
>
>
>
WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.
Dave
John Girouard wrote:
> I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
> operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
> occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
> release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
> not willing to test that theory.
>
> -John
>
I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)
http://tinyurl.com/a7edu
--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
> >Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
> >forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
> >the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
>
> See my response to your other post.
>
> Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time with
longer pieces of wood.
-j
LRod wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:36:08 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>bridger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Donnie Vazquez wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>John Girouard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
>>>>>operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
>>>>>occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
>>>>>release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
>>>>>not willing to test that theory.
>>>>>
>>>>>-John
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
>>>>here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
>>>>away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
>>>>board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
>>>>to some pretty pics :-)
>>>>
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/a7edu
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Donnie Vazquez
>>>>Sunderland, MD
>>>
>>>
>>>according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
>>>this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
>>>different animal.
>>>
>>
>>No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
>>was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
>>into the blade.
>
>
> Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.
>
> OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
> a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
> the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
> occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
> the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
> momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
> drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
> defies physics and logic.
>
> Besides, that is NOT the operation we're discussing. We're discussing
> standing behind the saw, pulling on a piece of wood. Try your own SAFE
> experiment. Take a piece of wood; 1x3 would be typical for the
> operation being discussed, but suit yourself. Grab it with one hand as
> if you were pulling it through saw (that means no death grip) and have
> SWMBO or #1 kid suddenly yank the other end (just like a kickback
> would). I defy you to keep a grip, much less be pulled toward him/her.
>
> Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.
>
Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
in the blink of an eye.
--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jock" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alternately, cut the length of stock overlength then you can poke it in far
> enough for the piece you want to cut on the angle.
> Turn the saw off and retract it & cut the length back to what you want.
> Good luck.
That is the way I do it. I cut a lot of 3 1/2" wide strips, to create a
full bevel on both sides. (I glue these under my seams in solid surface
fabrication.)
I make them longer that I need... then stop the saw. Pull out and cut to
length.
I always put my fence to the left of the blade..that way nothing gets
pinched between the blade and the fence.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>> >Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>> >forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
>> >the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
>>
>> See my response to your other post.
>>
>> Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
>
>
>I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time with
>longer pieces of wood.
I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
didn't and wouldn't.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
LRod wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
>>pushstick.
>
>
> WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
> the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
> fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
> pushing.
>
> But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
> like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
> the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
> boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
> on it.
>
> For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
> standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
> appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
> accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
> because the alternative is clearly dangerous.
>
> Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
> pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
> woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
> calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.
>
I doubt you are taking into account how your arms would move during the
split second of shock you would feel when there is an explosive
kickback--the sudden noise and movement could cause you to involuntarily
move your hand into a dangerous spot--namely the blade. THAT'S why I
continue to insist that dragging a board through from the rear isn't
such a hot idea. Obviously we disagree on this point... :)
Dave
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:37:54 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
>>pushstick.
>
>WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
>the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
>fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
>pushing.
>
Just to add fuel to the fire -- has anyone who experienced kickback while
using a push stick ever had the pushstick propelled at them? I have. When
I first got my shaper, I made the mistake while testing one of the profile
bits of having the wood with fingerboards holding the piece against the
fence laterally,but not vertically. I was using a pushstick to guide the
piece, but somehow managed to push just slightly off such that the wood
twisted a bit upward while moving through the cutter. The twist caused a
kickback event -- by design, I was not in the line of fire, but the
kickback pushed the push stick into my arm and caused a fairly nasty gash.
Sooo, just because you are using a push-stick don't think that you have
eliminated all possibilities for injury to yourself.
>But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
>like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
>the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
>boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
>on it.
>
>For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
>standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
>appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
>accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
>because the alternative is clearly dangerous.
>
>Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
>pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
>woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
>calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
>happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
>the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?
Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
Fred wrote:
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>>>Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>>>forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
>>>the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
>>
>>See my response to your other post.
>>
>>Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
>>
>>--
>
>
>
> Besides if you have the blade guard on, the chances of a kickback is less
> and if you're pulling from the back, the worse is you hands smashing into
> the blade guard. I don't want to push the piece into the blade guard since I
> don't have a clear vision under the guard. I guess we are assuming most of
> us don't use blade gards which includes me as well.
>
> I've been ripping long narrow (1/4" or less) this morning and pulling from
> the back - seems to me it's safer to pull from the back than push into the
> blade with only 1/4" or less clearance. But I could be wrong but lucky for
> 25 years.
>
> As far as pulling from the back I see contractors do that all the time even
> see them doing it on the home improvement shows. For long pieces I don't
> think I've seen a contractor pushing it all the way and a some point he is
> going to go around and pull it - it just seem like a natural process but
> again could be wrong technique. I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
> the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.
>
>
One of the FEW kickbacks I've had on my Unisaw came within the first day
or two of firing it up. The guard's plastic shield rested on the
workpiece at an angle due to the narrowness of the piece and forced it
to twist, resulting in a horrendous kickback. Right after that
incident, after I evaluated why it happened, I removed the offending
part. I rarely (not NEVER; just RARELY) use a splitter either. I can
see where the blade is, and I keep my precious fingers WELL away from
it. I use push blocks and push sticks.
Good technique prevents kickbacks except for the case of relieved
tension in a board that jambs it between the fence and blade.
I'm not suggestion that YOU go sans guard. Just reporting how I prefer
to run MY TS.
YMMV.
Dave
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:31:14 -0500, "Battleax"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
>> build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
>> strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
>>
>> I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
>> left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
>> the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
>> blade and the fence on the right.
>>
>> Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
>> I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
>> so good, or so I thought.
>>
>> I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
>> because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
>> piece through from the back of the saw.
>>
>> I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
>> buying a new tool.
>>
>
>So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?
Not that this is any proof, but the guy that peddles (peddled?) the
Grip-Tite magnetic featherboard at woodworking shows used to do that
all the time as part of the demo.
I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.
What would be the safety issue, anyway? If the blade snatched the work
(unlikely with the featherboard), the worst that could happen is a
spear gets propelled across the shop, but the operator is well out of
the line of fire being at the back of the saw or on his way to it.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:28:09 -0500, Australopithecus scobis
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:24 -0700, John Girouard wrote:
>
>> Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
>> release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
>> not willing to test that theory.
>
>Trick I picked up in an Aikido class: Your index finger hangs on until you
>will it to let go. Your other fingers will let go on their own. Something
>about swinging in the trees, I suppose. Anyway, if you do want to try the
>pulling technique, just hold with your other fingers. (I have no opinion
>on the TS technique part of the discussion.) Keep the tip in mind for any
>situation where hanging on would be the wrong thing to do in an emergency.
Nevertheless, see my response to David. Think tablecloth and fully set
table, index finger and evolution notwithstanding.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:24 -0700, John Girouard wrote:
> Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
> release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
> not willing to test that theory.
Trick I picked up in an Aikido class: Your index finger hangs on until you
will it to let go. Your other fingers will let go on their own. Something
about swinging in the trees, I suppose. Anyway, if you do want to try the
pulling technique, just hold with your other fingers. (I have no opinion
on the TS technique part of the discussion.) Keep the tip in mind for any
situation where hanging on would be the wrong thing to do in an emergency.
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:13:38 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
>>happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
>>the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?
>
>Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
>off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
>prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
>that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
>sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..
... or, given that one were to be performing such an operation and
realizing the potential danger, not pulling the wood through with a death
grip on the piece. i.e., a soft touch.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:36:08 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>bridger wrote:
>
>> Donnie Vazquez wrote:
>>
>>>John Girouard wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
>>>>operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
>>>>occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
>>>>release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
>>>>not willing to test that theory.
>>>>
>>>>-John
>>>>
>>>
>>>I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
>>>here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
>>>away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
>>>board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
>>>to some pretty pics :-)
>>>
>>>http://tinyurl.com/a7edu
>>>
>>>--
>>>Donnie Vazquez
>>>Sunderland, MD
>>
>>
>> according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
>> this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
>> different animal.
>>
>No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
>was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
>into the blade.
Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.
OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
defies physics and logic.
Besides, that is NOT the operation we're discussing. We're discussing
standing behind the saw, pulling on a piece of wood. Try your own SAFE
experiment. Take a piece of wood; 1x3 would be typical for the
operation being discussed, but suit yourself. Grab it with one hand as
if you were pulling it through saw (that means no death grip) and have
SWMBO or #1 kid suddenly yank the other end (just like a kickback
would). I defy you to keep a grip, much less be pulled toward him/her.
Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:31 -0700, "Fred" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
>the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
>pushstick.
WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.
But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
on it.
For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
because the alternative is clearly dangerous.
Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
lgb wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>>>WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
>>>pushstick.
>>
>>WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
>>the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
>>fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
>>pushing.
>>
>
>
> I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
> the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
> that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
> about 1/4" of backward movement.
>
> And since they hold the board down and against the fence, "kickback" is
> just about impossible - "pushback" is as bad as it gets, and as I
> said,that's limited to about 1/4".
>
>
>
I once considered those, but I do too many narrow ripping operations for
a push stick to clear the wheels. Otherwise they look like an effective
safety addition to a TS.
Dave
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
>the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
See my response to your other post.
Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:21:24 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
>> sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
>> guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
>> impunity.
>
>I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
>to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1).
When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly
susceptible to any forces the saw might otherwise impart while it's
not moving, safe.
>If it's a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go
>past the end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2).
How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
end of the fence at the beginning of the cut? Think quality of
operator technique.
>If that doesn't happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure
>off the edge of the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3)
How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
the board at the infeed side? Think quality of operator technique.
>There's also the possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting
>the blade, causing him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).
Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.
>In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
>control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
>problems as far as I'm concerned.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your assessment, and no one can
dictate what practices YOU should feel safe with and implement in YOUR
shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.
Moreover, I learned in a discussion on another forum that sometimes
other factors are involved. I was in a table saw safety discussion
with someone, thinking we were on the same page so far as basic
premises were concerned, until the other party revealed that he was so
afraid of using his saw that he bought a power feeder for it. That
changed the entire tenor of the discussion. Well, ended it actually.
There wasn't any point in me continuing.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
>>Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
>>forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
>>the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!
>
> See my response to your other post.
>
> Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.
>
> --
Besides if you have the blade guard on, the chances of a kickback is less
and if you're pulling from the back, the worse is you hands smashing into
the blade guard. I don't want to push the piece into the blade guard since I
don't have a clear vision under the guard. I guess we are assuming most of
us don't use blade gards which includes me as well.
I've been ripping long narrow (1/4" or less) this morning and pulling from
the back - seems to me it's safer to pull from the back than push into the
blade with only 1/4" or less clearance. But I could be wrong but lucky for
25 years.
As far as pulling from the back I see contractors do that all the time even
see them doing it on the home improvement shows. For long pieces I don't
think I've seen a contractor pushing it all the way and a some point he is
going to go around and pull it - it just seem like a natural process but
again could be wrong technique. I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.
nospambob wrote:
> Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:31 -0700, "Fred" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
>>the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.
>
>
There is a semi-klutzy neighbor a few doors down that sets up his TS on
the sidewalk and does free-hand crosscuts during remodeling chores. I
shudder when I've watched him, as I know he does it out of ignorance;
not practice. I gently suggested he avoid cutting w/o the miter
gauge--my words fell on deaf ears.
I'm a "no guard" kinda guy, though. took mine off after the first nasty
incident due solely to the guard causing a kickback.
Dave