Kitchen countertop project -- installation complete

Robatoy wrote:

> On Dec 28, 7:44 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The countertop replacement is now complete.  Many thanks to Robotoy and
>> Leon for suggestions during the project.  Robotoy's recommendations
>> regarding the seaming for the peninsula piece and other installation tips
>> were extremely helpful.
>>
>> <http://mklange.cnc.net/KitchenCountertop.html>
>>
>> Home page: <http://mklange.cnc.net>
>>
>> The only remaining details are applying Watco wipe-on poly to the
>> peninsula backsplash and the microwave shelf base.  That will occur over
>> the next several days.
>>
> Looks great, glad to help.
> Is that a genuine Kohler sink or one of those new-fangled acrylics? I
> really like the lowered spillway between the two compartments....handy
> for scrubbing veggies.

Sink is real cast iron, not sure if it's Kohler or not; it came with the
house.

> You'll have years of joy from this work.
> Then we'll walk you through a solid surface project. *S*
> Looks totally professional. Wilsonart has a winner with that pattern.
> But, I have to ask....:
> Why is only one side of the peninsula trimmed with wood?
>

After considering the fact that the working side of the peninsula is going
to be subjected to liquid spills and other nastiness, we decided that
making the edging with laminate would be more durable and sanitary in the
long run. The other side of the peninsula can be the good-looking side, the
inside is the working side.


> r

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

[email protected] wrote:

> Well, I can see I'm gonna have to start slowing down on my drinkin'
> again. I missed the whole thread on the new countertops.
>

Gotta be careful with some of these threads, blink and they're gone. ;-)

> They really look nice with a great job on the install.
>

Thanks

> Mark, how did you input on your cherry edge trim?
>

Not sure what you are asking. The trim is glued to the base material.
The peninsula laminate laps the trim by about 1/4" in order to allow a
spill-over path.


> Robert
>
> PS: Good job getting the helper involved, too.

Man, that was essential for the peninsula, no way I could have got that
from the shop to the house without needing one of those operations like
Robatoy just had. ;-)

The bonus was that Bruce jumped in while I was attaching the top and wired
the disposal. In addition, he just went to re-attaching the plumbing after
the sink was in. That was a real life-saver -- I hate plumbing, he claims
he's never had a job leak. win-win


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Robatoy wrote:

... snip
>>
>> Sink is real cast iron, not sure if it's Kohler or not; it came with the
>> house.
>
> Almost certainly a classic (big-buck) Kohler then. If you're not going
> to an undermount, then that's the way to go in my opinion.
> I really like those sinks, but my hernia doesn't. <G>

Yeah boy, I hear ya' That was the other thing that having help with the
installation paid big time. Had no idea that sucker weighed as much as it
did.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The countertop replacement is now complete. Many thanks to Robotoy and
>> Leon for suggestions during the project. Robotoy's recommendations
>> regarding the seaming for the peninsula piece and other installation tips
>> were extremely helpful.
>>
>>
>> <http://mklange.cnc.net/KitchenCountertop.html>
>>
>> Home page: <http://mklange.cnc.net>
>>
>> The only remaining details are applying Watco wipe-on poly to the
>> peninsula backsplash and the microwave shelf base. That will occur over
>> the next several days.
>
>
> Looks nice, but instead of 102 hours, you could have rolled on a coat of
> gloss enamel in 30 minutes or less.
>

Thanks. The gloss enamel idea didn't survive 5 seconds. ;-)

> I bet you added thousands to the value of your house too! And you have a
> happy wife.

Oh yeah.

Thanks for the kind words


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Robatoy wrote:

> On Dec 28, 10:59 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Looks nice, but instead of 102 hours, you could have rolled on a coat of
>> gloss enamel in 30 minutes or less.
>>
> Countertops like that are a part of what I do professionally.
>
> To do some quick math... figure on about $ 65.00 per lineal foot
> (count the corners twice)... that would be dealer cost.
> In my shop, with my specialised gear and experience:
> Day 1. Make the substrate and glue on the edges. prep back splashes.
> Day 2. Lay up the laminate and trim. Cut mitres (Not really applicable
> in this case)
> and build back splashes and finish wood.
> Day 3. Deliver Install and cut in sink and install back splashes.
> 48 man/hrs (Many hours are double duty as there are other things going
> on while adhesives set up, etc) That job would come in at just under
> $2K.
> After labour and materials, I'd do okay.
>

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity; I was kind of wondering what it would
have cost to have done. BTW, the 102 hours includes demo and tearout of a
few (maybe 10 or so) hours. Finding those drywall screws under the
quick-set took some time; I couldn't just crowbar everything off for fear
of destroying the base cabinets.

> at 102 hours, fetching your own material, and pondering... you
> probably saved yourself an easy G-note or more.
>

Cool, then taking into account for the $279 I spent on the trim router
(obligatory new tool for a project), I came out way ahead.

> Good job!
>
Thanks

> r

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

[email protected] wrote:

> On Dec 28, 9:51 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The peninsula laminate laps the trim by about 1/4" in >order to allow a
>> spill-over path.
>
> So did you mill a small receiver on the top of the trim to accomodate
> the lap, or did you lay it on top of the trim?
>

The trim was cut flush with the substrate and the laminate laid on top.

> Another thing, I swear that pic of the peninsula taken from the
> dishwasher side (the one with the plywood in front of the diswasher)
> looks like the laminate was rolled over that edge. Did I miss
> something else? Don't tell me you rolled over the edge with a heat
> gun...
>

No, the edge was trimmed with laminate, then the top attached and trimmed
flush. I did not attempt to roll over the edge.

>
>> The bonus was that Bruce jumped in while I was >attaching the top and
>> wired the disposal.  In addition, he >just went to re-attaching the
>> plumbing after
>> the sink was in.  That was a real life-saver -- I hate >plumbing, he
>> claims he's never had a job leak.  win-win
>
> Man.. I thought I was kind of an old school guy. Your helper in the
> amber shooting glasses couldn't be more than 12. If you already have
> him out on jobs working on plumbing, you are one hard core guy.
>
> Just kiddin' here. ;^)
>

12 is about right. I was lucky to get him to actually help and enjoy
helping with the tear-out. Plumbing? forget it.

> Robert

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Leon wrote:

>
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>>
>> Sink is real cast iron, not sure if it's Kohler or not; it came with the
>> house.
>
>
> Oh those are fun to put in. I recall putting in our Olympic sized Kohler
> sink some 15 years ago. 150 lbs and the 2 sides were different depths. I
> used a screw jack to lower it down onto the caulk around the hole.

Wow. This was about 70 or so pounds, that was bad enough.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Robatoy wrote:

.. snip
> I think I did 2 or 3 post formed countertops last year as favours, but
> man, I hate that stuff....

Not familiar with the terminology, what is "post-formed"?



>
> r

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Robatoy wrote:

> On Dec 29, 7:16 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> .. snip
>>
>> > I think I did 2 or 3 post formed countertops last year as favours, but
>> > man, I hate that stuff....
>>
>> Not familiar with the terminology, what is "post-formed"?
>>
> It is the type of countertop that comes in pre-made lengths and has
> the backsplash and the front edge already attached and wrapped in a
> thin laminate.
>
> Here's a few pics giving you a peek at what I am talking about.
> http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb000-postform01.html
>
> HTH
>

Ah, got it. We looked at some of that at Lowe's; it was semi-appealing
but couldn't come up with a good solution for the peninsula. They do sell
individual sheets, so I could have gone with the post-formed for the wall
pieces and made the straight run, but the choices weren't as good as the
Wilsonart pattern we liked.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Dec 29, 11:15=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> The granite is being whored to death and the characters are less than
> desirable for most people. They can get quartz for the same money > (I d=
eal exclusively with Hanstone) from me and I have a good >reputation. I full=
y expect to double my quartz output in 2008.

Ditto the granite situation here. With the local designers, you MUST
have granite when you do a full kitchen remodel or buy a new home
where you get to pick. Quartz is still on the fringe, even though you
can get Silestone brand quartz tops for about 10 - 20% less with much
better performance characteristics.

About three years ago I went to the builders and remodelers show and
met a guy that only did one thing: fix granite tops. Scratches,
chips, cracks, etc., was his main business. He would also resurface
tops using proprietary polishes and methods. (Read here: lapidary
grits with slow speed polisher and water.)

He was making a killing, too. He used proprietary methods (read:
West Systems Marine Epoxy) mixed with marble dust or plain colorants
to repair. He overfilled the repair area, let it sit for 48 hours,
then gently cut off the overfill and polished out the repair area.

He would also "seal" the granite with some kind of baloney that out of
a rattle can that he spread with soft cloth.

If he had just paid his federal employment taxes and not become a big
deal "bidniz mans", he would still be doing it.

All of that prattle above was simply to agree with you that granite is
not a satisfactory counter and will need maintenance and repair.

> Then, I show them Staron Tempest colours and hold a Quartz sample
> beside it..and I make a solid surface >sale.http://www.staron.com/tempest/=
colors.jsp

I followed the link, and low and behold, we have a couple of nearby
distrubutors. I am really surprised I haven't seen the Staron
products installed somewhere. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I
think I would have noticed those patterns as the remind me a great
deal of the old terazzo floors.

> > rolled over laminate edge on the kitchen side that covered a straight
> > downturned edge with a small 45 degree chamfer on the top of the
> > edge. =A0It was factory rolled/formed, and it was >>really<< striking
> > presentation with a coat of lemon oil on it. =A0Don't know who made it,
> > and I was unfamiliar with their installer.

> Yes, backsplashes are oh-so yesterday. I'd like to see of what you
> speak. Sounds intriguing.

I will make a call or two on Monday and see if my buddy that went with
me remembers who had that stuff. It really was nice. But since it
was at a parade, the tops may have been extorted out of a hapless
vendor that was trying to get a foot in the door. He may not have
even been local.


> In 1986, I was getting $ 225.00 per lineal foot for Corian. 4 colours.
> In 1986 dollars.

> Now, in today's dollars, I get $ 150.00, 4-5 brands, 400 colours.

And who knew that you had to be computer literate to run a company? I
have a couple of old timers that I help out with some of their
reporting and such because while they have the technical knowledge to
do the report, the don't have the computer savvy to produce it. Not
only are they bamboozled by a word processor, they are still impressed
by resizing pictures and emebedding them in reports. And if the
pictures are watermarked and have text, they think I am some kind of
computer genius. I gave up on trying to get them to understand what
a .pdf is as they still think any computer can read any file if you
just "put it in there".

Yet, for all of us, these aren't only necessary skills, they are
considered almost rudimentary. Sometimes I use my computer more than
my woodworking tools. Keeping up with tax law, contract law, writing
invoices, contracts, letters of opinion, and doing research are all
part of the game now, and that means computer skills. If you aren't
computer literate (or don't hire someone that is) you won't be
anything more than just a hand.

Sad, too. With a little more reflection, it doesn't take much for me
to pine for those days. I worked hard, got paid, drank beer, ate
barbecue and watched football. Those were the days.

Robert

On Dec 29, 12:11=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

SNIP

Thanks for the replies, Mark. I wasn't familiar with that particular
laminate, so anything I can learn is always a plus for me. From the
pics, it sure looks like granite to me.

I agree with putting the wood on the "show side" and the laminate on
the work side. Many homes I have been in that have that trim detail
have wood that is discolored, disjoined from the top, and in some
cases, ruined for anything buy paint.

My kitchen is almost a second shop, and it is a hard working kitchen.
I have never seen anything but stainless hold up as well as a really
good high pressure laminate with as little care as they require. I
know the next set of tops to go in my house will be some kind of
laminate.

That being said, I haven't put in a laminate kitchen in a long time.
I have a post formed guy like Rob that does the laminate tops, another
guy for granite/Silestone/Corian, and another for cultured marble
which has been relegated to bathrooms now for many years. I have only
done a few bathroom tops that require something from the Ralph Lauren
color palette in some time.

In fact, it has probably been five years (more?) or so since I made
plywood/MDF kitchen tops and applied the laminate out in the field
like we did in the old days.

Robert





I hope you let us know how that particular product stands up to use in
the next few months.

Robert

On Dec 28, 7:44=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> =A0 The countertop replacement is now complete. =A0Many thanks to Robotoy =
and
> Leon for suggestions during the project. =A0Robotoy's recommendations
> regarding the seaming for the peninsula piece and other installation tips
> were extremely helpful. =A0
>
> =A0 <http://mklange.cnc.net/KitchenCountertop.html>
>
> =A0 Home page: <http://mklange.cnc.net>
>
> =A0 The only remaining details are applying Watco wipe-on poly to the
> peninsula backsplash and the microwave shelf base. =A0That will occur over=

> the next several days.
>
Looks great, glad to help.
Is that a genuine Kohler sink or one of those new-fangled acrylics? I
really like the lowered spillway between the two compartments....handy
for scrubbing veggies.
You'll have years of joy from this work.
Then we'll walk you through a solid surface project. *S*
Looks totally professional. Wilsonart has a winner with that pattern.
But, I have to ask....:
Why is only one side of the peninsula trimmed with wood?

r

On Dec 29, 10:50=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>http://hoganhardwoods.com/hogan/pages/products/06_SpecialtyPrd/adhesi...
>
> http://www.mcfaddens.com/Catalogue/Adhesives/IASpraySystems.htm
>
> http://www.hardwoodweb.com/pdf/catalogue_adhesives.pdf

I followed the first two links and saw what you were talking about.
Interesting, I had never seen that stuff. It sure does look like a
propane bottle.

> The green is my preference, it is not green like paint, more
> translucent. I can see it better. More like a light snot green.... in
> the beginning of a cold.

OK, allright. Buddy, you have been in the field too long. To define
the actual color of snot to make your point... it sure made me
laugh, though. Hey, and I knew what color you were talking about!

> I'll try to find some time to take a couple of pictures of some
> samples tomorrow. Stuff sells itself and makes an honest buck.

I would really like to see them. If you want, zap them to me directly
at

nailgarbageshootertrash@sbcglobaldotnet

Just take out the garbage, trash and the dot.

> There'd be no doubt in my mind. You guys have mosquitos down there?

Nope, haven't had for a while. We have had near drought for about
five years and even when there was an extended period of rain this
year there were so few that they never were a problem. Until this
year I literally hadn't seen any except once or twice for the entire
year for the past 3 - 4.

Now where Swing and Leon live, that's different. When sundown comes,
you need to make sure you are in a safe place if they have had rainy
weather. Just image.... Hueys coming down low over the ocean.... lots
of Huey gunships... they music comes up.... the opening strains of
"Das Valkyrie" are heard.... so Apocolyptic... those are the kind of
flying blood suckers they have.

That's Houston. Born there, spent part of my childhood there, worked
there, still visit my sister there. If there is anything for Texas
braggin' take it from me that there is no exaggeration when talking
about Houston/Galveston 'skeeters. Literally (honestly) you can hear
some of them when they fly by your ears. When splayed out, leg to leg
there are some that will cover a quarter. Talk about raising a welt.
And they can come in clouds. After a long rain spell, the city still
drives the trucks up and down the street spraying insecticide into the
air.

Might explain a little about the folks living there... '^)

Robert

On Dec 28, 9:32=A0pm, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Could it be to avoid wear on the "more frequently rubbed against by
> the prep cook" wooden surfaces? Perhaps a late fix for a math error.

Nah.. no math error. It would be a snap to take a heat-gun and flip
off the laminate face and biscuit on a strip of wood...

On Dec 28, 9:20=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 7:44=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> The countertop replacement is now complete. =A0Many thanks to Robotoy a=
nd
> >> Leon for suggestions during the project. =A0Robotoy's recommendations
> >> regarding the seaming for the peninsula piece and other installation ti=
ps
> >> were extremely helpful.
>
> >> <http://mklange.cnc.net/KitchenCountertop.html>
>
> >> Home page: <http://mklange.cnc.net>
>
> >> The only remaining details are applying Watco wipe-on poly to the
> >> peninsula backsplash and the microwave shelf base. =A0That will occur o=
ver
> >> the next several days.
>
> > Looks great, glad to help.
> > Is that a genuine Kohler sink or one of those new-fangled acrylics? I
> > really like the lowered spillway between the two compartments....handy
> > for scrubbing veggies.
>
> =A0 Sink is real cast iron, not sure if it's Kohler or not; it came with t=
he
> house. =A0

Almost certainly a classic (big-buck) Kohler then. If you're not going
to an undermount, then that's the way to go in my opinion.
I really like those sinks, but my hernia doesn't. <G>

On Dec 30, 3:04=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:50=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>
> > The green is my preference, it is not green like paint, more
> > translucent. I can see it better. More like a light snot green.... in
> > the beginning of a cold.
>
> OK, allright. =A0Buddy, you have been in the field too long. =A0To define
> the actual color of snot to make your point... =A0 it sure made me
> laugh, though. =A0Hey, and I knew what color you were talking about!

Ya got to have a chuckle now and again, eh?
>
> > I'll try to find some time to take a couple of pictures of some
> > samples tomorrow. Stuff sells itself and makes an honest buck.
>
> I would really like to see them. =A0If you want, zap them to me directly
> at

Later this aft.
>
> Now where Swing and Leon live, that's different. =A0When sundown comes,
> you need to make sure you are in a safe place if they have had rainy
> weather. =A0Just image.... Hueys coming down low over the ocean.... lots
> of Huey gunships... =A0they music comes up.... the opening strains of
> "Das Valkyrie" are heard.... =A0so Apocolyptic... =A0those are the kind of=

> flying blood suckers they have.

Got the visual! I absolutely hate the damned things. We had the
opportunity to borrow a cottage at the foot of the Confederation
Bridge (Runs from New Brunswick to Prince Edward Island) on the St.
Lawrence. Yummy, fresh clams etc.. but noooo, mosquitos big enough
they need FAA registration numbers. I asked one of the locals why
nobody ever built docks for their boats. "Naa" he said, "The skeeters
use them to land on."
I saw one latch onto the ass of a horse, and by the time it was done
taking a drink, the rider's feet were dragging on the ground. We
stayed for a couple of hours. There was no fighting them. They didn't
give a damn about some pretty serious repellant either. I blew a
couple of cans of fog and all they did was high-5 each other yelling "
Hey! That's out brand!"
When I saw them riffling through our luggage looking for souvenirs, it
was time to leave.
>
> That's Houston. =A0Born there, spent part of my childhood there, worked
> there, still visit my sister there. =A0If there is anything for Texas
> braggin' take it from me that there is no exaggeration when talking
> about Houston/Galveston 'skeeters. =A0Literally (honestly) you can hear
> some of them when they fly by your ears. =A0When splayed out, leg to leg
> there are some that will cover a quarter. =A0Talk about raising a welt.
> And they can come in clouds. =A0After a long rain spell, the city still
> drives the trucks up and down the street spraying insecticide into the
> air.
>
> Might explain a little about the folks living there... =A0 '^)
>
Yowsa....LOL..expect some feedback there, bro'.

On Dec 29, 3:34=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> That being said, I haven't put in a laminate kitchen in a long time.
> I have a post formed guy like Rob that does the laminate tops, another
> guy for granite/Silestone/Corian, and another for cultured marble
> which has been relegated to bathrooms now for many years. =A0I have only
> done a few bathroom tops that require something from the Ralph Lauren
> color palette in some time.
>

Going over books from 2007 I came up with this break-down of what I
do.

71 % Solid surface ( Acrylics only NO polyester)
11 % Quartz & Granite
7 % Custom laminate I do NOT do post-formed.
6 % Custom Cabinet installations (Kitchens by others)
5 % Commissioned cabinetry.

The fastest growth is in Quartz, which was less than 1 % in 2006.
I template, digitise and e-mail. Then pick up and install. TaDaaaaa!

The Kitchen cabinet installations are usually retail customers who
want a complete solution for (usually) new homes. I then buy the
kitchens from guys who I already supply with countertops. Everybody
wins.

I think I did 2 or 3 post formed countertops last year as favours, but
man, I hate that stuff.... and I never touch cultured marble.

The commissioned cabinetry will go up in '08 when Bot comes on line.


r

On Dec 28, 10:59=A0pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Looks nice, but instead of 102 hours, you could have rolled on a coat of
> gloss enamel in 30 minutes or less.
>
Countertops like that are a part of what I do professionally.

To do some quick math... figure on about $ 65.00 per lineal foot
(count the corners twice)... that would be dealer cost.
In my shop, with my specialised gear and experience:
Day 1. Make the substrate and glue on the edges. prep back splashes.
Day 2. Lay up the laminate and trim. Cut mitres (Not really applicable
in this case)
and build back splashes and finish wood.
Day 3. Deliver Install and cut in sink and install back splashes.
48 man/hrs (Many hours are double duty as there are other things going
on while adhesives set up, etc) That job would come in at just under
$2K.
After labour and materials, I'd do okay.

at 102 hours, fetching your own material, and pondering... you
probably saved yourself an easy G-note or more.

Good job!

r

On Dec 29, 5:10=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> 71 % Solid surface ( Acrylics only NO polyester)
> 11 % Quartz & Granite
> 7 =A0% Custom laminate I do NOT do post-formed.
> 6 =A0% Custom Cabinet installations (Kitchens by others)
> 5 =A0% Commissioned cabinetry.

Now that's pretty amazing to me. Do you think that is the nature of
the business you built, or is this a reflection of the building trends
in CA? Around here (South Texas), undoubtedly granite is king, with
quartz coming in second and marble in there somewhere. Even all our
Home Depots and Lowes sell granite and quartz (Silestone and one more
that has a pretty wild looking blue color). There are actually only a
couple of solid surface guys left here that do it full time.

Most of the homes in the middle class/upper middle class neighborhoods
being built by the tract home builders use laminate with wood trim
edging. Any other surfaces are upgrades.

I saw an installation of a post formed laminate at a mini parade of
homes last year that had no backsplash on the wall side, but had a
rolled over laminate edge on the kitchen side that covered a straight
downturned edge with a small 45 degree chamfer on the top of the
edge. It was factory rolled/formed, and it was >>really<< striking
presentation with a coat of lemon oil on it. Don't know who made it,
and I was unfamiliar with their installer.

One thing that joined the bird gang and never should have happened to
begin with was the tiled counter top. (Right Mark? ;^) ) That
never was a good idea, and anyone that has ever tried to clean grout
or keep it clean to begin with wouldn't do that. Nor would anyone
that cooks; your trivets wobble and shake, and your cutting board has
the jitters from the moment you set it down. And tile staining has
been such a problem here that one of the local carpet/tile steam
cleaners will now rework your tile tops AND regrout them for you.
Mark had the right idea on that deal.

Sitting here typing this, I am thinking back. Wow, has the
construction business changed. A lot of the people are the same, but
the techniques, materials, and methods are so damn different. Once
you are out of the slab and framing stage, the guys I knew that quit
25 years ago would be astonished at how different things are.

Robert

On Dec 28, 9:51=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> The peninsula laminate laps the trim by about 1/4" in >order to allow a s=
pill-over path.

So did you mill a small receiver on the top of the trim to accomodate
the lap, or did you lay it on top of the trim?

Another thing, I swear that pic of the peninsula taken from the
dishwasher side (the one with the plywood in front of the diswasher)
looks like the laminate was rolled over that edge. Did I miss
something else? Don't tell me you rolled over the edge with a heat
gun...


> =A0 The bonus was that Bruce jumped in while I was >attaching the top and =
wired the disposal. =A0In addition, he >just went to re-attaching the plumb=
ing after
> the sink was in. =A0That was a real life-saver -- I hate >plumbing, he cla=
ims he's never had a job leak. =A0win-win

Man.. I thought I was kind of an old school guy. Your helper in the
amber shooting glasses couldn't be more than 12. If you already have
him out on jobs working on plumbing, you are one hard core guy.

Just kiddin' here. ;^)

Robert

Well, I can see I'm gonna have to start slowing down on my drinkin'
again. I missed the whole thread on the new countertops.

They really look nice with a great job on the install.

Mark, how did you input on your cherry edge trim?

Robert

PS: Good job getting the helper involved, too.

On Dec 29, 3:34=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
snip

>
> In fact, it has probably been five years (more?) or so since I made
> plywood/MDF kitchen tops and applied the laminate out in the field
> like we did in the old days.
>
Laminate has undergone some serious changes in the last few years.
Wilsonart has led the way with great colours and finishes and their
stuff is very
durable. They use actual photographs of granites and marbles.
Formica has done well with their 'effects' series.

Now that pros can buy 38 pound (propane-like) cans of spray-able
contact adhesives, the lay-up is a cinch with minimal (if any)
overspray and because the application is airless, you can do this in-
house.
The drawback is that the first container hurts, as you need to buy the
hose and the sprayer head. The contents are good for about 15 4x8
sheets, so you need to add about $ 25.00 per sheet for adhesive for
the first 15. (The kit costs close to $ 350.00)
BUT... it makes building custom laminate tops a joy. Well worth it.
Add a solid surface edge on the front, and you have a business
opportunity that can't miss.

On Dec 29, 5:30=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Laminate has undergone some serious changes in the last >few years. Wilso=
nart has led the way with great colours >and finishes and their stuff is ve=
ry
> durable. They use actual photographs of granites and >marbles.

I actually saw some marble Wilsonart with white oak trim edge that a
fellow woodchopper put in a kitchen that I thought was real marble.
The backsplashes were shop made with a nice wood cap, so there was no
exposed edge anywhere. A tiny bit of sealant at the backsplash to top
connection and they were really gorgeous. It was the same green base
color with black/white/burgandy veining that my old bank used to have
on their marble teller counters.

> Now that pros can buy 38 pound (propane-like) cans of >spray-able contact=
adhesives, the lay-up is a cinch with >minimal (if any) overspray and beca=
use the application is >airless, you can do this in- house.

Is this water based or solvent stuff? The last water based I used was
3M brand, and it was a disaster. I had only used the Wilsonart
solvent based before that, and it pretty foolproof. Once bitten
though, twice shy. No more water based anything for me unless it is
latex paint.

> Add a solid surface edge on the front, and you have a >business opportunit=
y that can't miss.

Ahhhh.... if you were only about 2500 miles closer....

We could have some fun.

Robert

On Dec 29, 11:23=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Dec 29, 5:10=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > 71 % Solid surface ( Acrylics only NO polyester)
> > 11 % Quartz & Granite
> > 7 =A0% Custom laminate I do NOT do post-formed.
> > 6 =A0% Custom Cabinet installations (Kitchens by others)
> > 5 =A0% Commissioned cabinetry.
>
> Now that's pretty amazing to me. =A0Do you think that is the nature of
> the business you built, or is this a reflection of the building trends
> in CA? =A0

It's the beast I have nurtured. The solid surface product is an easy
up-sell from laminate (custom laminate) The no-seam, no-stain,
repairability and refinish-ability are strong points. The undermount
sinks another.
The granite is being whored to death and the characters are less than
desirable for most people.
They can get quartz for the same money (I deal exclusively with
Hanstone) from me and I have a good reputation. I fully expect to
double my quartz output in 2008.
The solid surface niche, fits nicely in cost too.
Example:
If a custom laminate top with either a wood or solid surface edge
would cost the customer $ 1250.00, then for $ 2500.00 they could get
solid surface. Quartz would cost them over $ 4000.00.
Then, I show them Staron Tempest colours and hold a Quartz sample
beside it..and I make a solid surface sale.
http://www.staron.com/tempest/colors.jsp
That stuff has the same clear chunks in it as Quartz, it can't take
the heat like quartz, but no seams... people hate seams.. bacteria
live in seams..yuck!! Check please.
>
> Most of the homes in the middle class/upper middle class neighborhoods
> being built by the tract home builders use laminate with wood trim
> edging. =A0Any other surfaces are upgrades.

In new-build that's the same here. I don't do a lot of new build..
relatively speaking.
>
> I saw an installation of a post formed laminate at a mini parade of
> homes last year that had no backsplash on the wall side, but had a
> rolled over laminate edge on the kitchen side that covered a straight
> downturned edge with a small 45 degree chamfer on the top of the
> edge. =A0It was factory rolled/formed, and it was >>really<< striking
> presentation with a coat of lemon oil on it. =A0Don't know who made it,
> and I was unfamiliar with their installer.

Yes, backsplashes are oh-so yesterday. I'd like to see of what you
speak. Sounds intriguing.
>
[snip]
>
> Sitting here typing this, I am thinking back. =A0Wow, has the
> construction business changed. =A0A lot of the people are the same, but
> the techniques, materials, and methods are so damn different. =A0Once
> you are out of the slab and framing stage, the guys I knew that quit
> 25 years ago would be astonished at how different things are.
>
In 1986, I was getting $ 225.00 per lineal foot for Corian. 4 colours.
In 1986 dollars.

Now, in today's dollars, I get $ 150.00, 4-5 brands, 400 colours.

The linear foot prices are comparative only as there are many reasons
why it would be more, like sink cut-outs and under-mounting and drain
boards etc., etc.

What I like about solid surface, is it's ability to be thermoformed
and I do all fabricating in-house. My turn-over is quick and my
customers are happy. I make a good living, even though my solid
surface is between 20-30% cheaper than what Home Depot quotes.

On Dec 28, 10:26=A0pm, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy said:
>
> >On Dec 28, 9:32=A0pm, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Could it be to avoid wear on the "more frequently rubbed against by
> >> the prep cook" wooden surfaces? Perhaps a late fix for a math error.
>
> >Nah.. no math error. It would be a snap to take a heat-gun and flip
> >off the laminate face and biscuit on a strip of wood...
>
> I was being a wiseass.
>

Oh NOESSSSS!!! A wiseass on the WRECK!!!

WHaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!11111!!!!!eleventy!!!!!


nyuk.

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The countertop replacement is now complete. Many thanks to Robotoy and
> Leon for suggestions during the project. Robotoy's recommendations
> regarding the seaming for the peninsula piece and other installation tips
> were extremely helpful.
>
>
> <http://mklange.cnc.net/KitchenCountertop.html>
>
> Home page: <http://mklange.cnc.net>
>
> The only remaining details are applying Watco wipe-on poly to the
> peninsula backsplash and the microwave shelf base. That will occur over
> the next several days.


Looks nice, but instead of 102 hours, you could have rolled on a coat of
gloss enamel in 30 minutes or less.

I bet you added thousands to the value of your house too! And you have a
happy wife.

On Dec 29, 11:00=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> Is this water based or solvent stuff? =A0The last water based I used was
> 3M brand, and it was a disaster. =A0I had only used the Wilsonart
> solvent based before that, and it pretty foolproof. =A0Once bitten
> though, twice shy. =A0No more water based anything for me unless it is
> latex paint.

Noooo. Water based contact cement sucks. Although it is a lot better
than it was a few years ago. If you have the controlled set-up which
deals with temperature and humidity and you acclimatise your
materials, water based can work very well in a production setting.
That would include very strong pinch rollers as well.

This stuff I'm talking about is about as bullet-proof a system as I
have seen in over 30 years. It is flammable but no ozone damaging CFC
crap. The adhesive is high solids.
It sprays on with a web-like pattern on your substrate and you do your
laminate piece with a 90-degree orientation relative to you first
spray. Less is more. You do not want to see puddles or bubbles, in
fact, it looks like you're not putting on enough, but try it. You'll
get a chuckle out of how fricking strong that shit is.

I googled a few sources for you:

http://hoganhardwoods.com/hogan/pages/products/06_SpecialtyPrd/adhesives.htm=


http://www.mcfaddens.com/Catalogue/Adhesives/IASpraySystems.htm

http://www.hardwoodweb.com/pdf/catalogue_adhesives.pdf

The stuff you're after is the Imperial Permagrip 157 (the 107 is too
fast)
Comes in clear and green, and under Formica brand also in red.
The green is my preference, it is not green like paint, more
translucent. I can see it better. More like a light snot green.... in
the beginning of a cold.

> > Add a solid surface edge on the front, and you have a >business opportun=
ity that can't miss.

Hey, most solid surface distributors will sell strips.

I'll try to find some time to take a couple of pictures of some
samples tomorrow. Stuff sells itself and makes an honest buck.
>
> Ahhhh.... if you were only about 2500 miles closer....
>
> We could have some fun.

There'd be no doubt in my mind. You guys have mosquitos down there?

On Dec 29, 7:16=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> .. snip
>
> > I think I did 2 or 3 post formed countertops last year as favours, but
> > man, I hate that stuff....
>
> =A0 Not familiar with the terminology, what is "post-formed"?
>
It is the type of countertop that comes in pre-made lengths and has
the backsplash and the front edge already attached and wrapped in a
thin laminate.

Here's a few pics giving you a peek at what I am talking about.
http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb000-postform01.html

HTH

r

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>
> Sink is real cast iron, not sure if it's Kohler or not; it came with the
> house.


Oh those are fun to put in. I recall putting in our Olympic sized Kohler
sink some 15 years ago. 150 lbs and the 2 sides were different depths. I
used a screw jack to lower it down onto the caulk around the hole.

Robatoy said:

>On Dec 28, 7:44 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>   The countertop replacement is now complete.  Many thanks to Robotoy and
>> Leon for suggestions during the project.

Looks very eloquent - much, much better than the "covers all ills"
sierra tile - and professionally done as well.
At least until you put all that junk back on the counter. ;-)

>Looks great, glad to help.
<...>
>But, I have to ask....:
>Why is only one side of the peninsula trimmed with wood?

Could it be to avoid wear on the "more frequently rubbed against by
the prep cook" wooden surfaces? Perhaps a late fix for a math error.
:~)


Greg G.

Robatoy said:

>On Dec 28, 9:32 pm, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Could it be to avoid wear on the "more frequently rubbed against by
>> the prep cook" wooden surfaces? Perhaps a late fix for a math error.
>
>Nah.. no math error. It would be a snap to take a heat-gun and flip
>off the laminate face and biscuit on a strip of wood...

I was being a wiseass.


Greg G.