I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
grind. That leads to my question:
Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
expected to shoulder that considerable work?
I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
plane irons?
rant mode off
charlie b
The Finger Printless One
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:49:11 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Anyone here used the Diamond Reference Lapping Plate (DRLP) from
>Shapton? At $489 it's not cheap, but I've read good things about
>Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
>full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
>30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
>
>That might make lapping your chisel backs a little easier!
At that price I think I'd hire someone to do it for me.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote
> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
> plane irons?
I have discovered that all my new chisels were slightly crosswise concave
when I started the flattening. The appearance was like a very shallow
version of Japanese chisels.
I guess that some kind of mild distortion occured after manfacture.
Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire - UK
Username for email is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
Website - amgron.clara.net
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:27:00 +1000, Noons
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hints:
>Those diamond stones (DMT?) are precious for this
>sort of thing: fastest cut I've ever seen. The rough blue one.
I second that. The DMT stones don't dish like waterstones, and the
XC-C-F-XF progression flattens backs FAST. I also like WD-40 lubed
sandpaper on a jointer bed for flattening backs.
My Hirsch bench chisels, that purportedly are the same as Two
Cherries, took less than an hour to flatten seven backs.
I like waterstones for sharpening, but prefer the other methods for
the initial back flattening. I also only work about the first inch or
so of the back.
Barry
charlie b apparently said,on my timestamp of 5/08/2004 2:25 PM:
> grind. That leads to my question:
>
> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
$$$$$$
Hints:
Those diamond stones (DMT?) are precious for this
sort of thing: fastest cut I've ever seen. The rough blue one.
I've seen in a book another technique: use a small
grinding stone in a Dremel-like tool to take the humps down
quickly. Then finish with normal or water stones.
If you take too much, it will re-set itself as the edge is
used up. Kinda like a hollow-back Japanese chisel, but not
as much so you don't need to tap it out.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
CW wrote:
>
> You act as if the manufacturers are trying to do more than make your money
> theirs.
Well, Lie Nielsen seems to understand that making a quality tool,
then
preparing it so it can be used out of the box, is good business.
Veritas
understands the idea as well, as does Steve Knight. I'd gladly pay
an
additional $5 to get a flat backed chisel or iron.
charlie b
Have any of you granite lappers ever considered that you crush the fibers
more when using the chisel than the thousandths you're fussing about? Any
want to bet you can trim to within thousandths of any line you mark? Lap
away the wire edge when sharpening for best edge, and go. You can't work to
the tolerances you're talking about in wood.
"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:49:11 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Anyone here used the Diamond Reference Lapping Plate (DRLP) from
> >Shapton? At $489 it's not cheap, but I've read good things about
> >Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
> >full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
> >30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
> >
> >That might make lapping your chisel backs a little easier!
>
> At that price I think I'd hire someone to do it for me.
>
> Tim Douglass
>
> http://www.DouglassClan.com
Jay Pique apparently said,on my timestamp of 10/08/2004 9:24 PM:
> On 8 Aug 2004 22:15:59 -0700, [email protected] (Noons) wrote:
>
>
>>Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>
>>
>>>Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
>>>full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
>>>30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
>>
>>1700??????
>>Jay, we need to talk...
>
>
> Indeed. You're not a venture capitalist are you?
No, but you need council! :)
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'd gladly pay
> an
> additional $5 to get a flat backed chisel or iron.
>
> charlie b
Most of us here would. The guy trying to decide between the Buck Brothers
and Stanley set probably would not.
Ed
I think it's one factor why some people try wood working and then give
up. Everything I have purchased claimed in the advertisement to be
honed and ready for use "right out of the package". Probably okay
if your working with pine. But as soon as you hit a hardwood, your
in for a case of frustration.
Unless of course, you reach for the claw hammer and start bashing the
heck out of your new chisels. "I'm thinking of my brother here"...
End result, some will end up disappointed and give up. That seems
counter productive if your trying to encourage more people to but your
tools.
Pat
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:06:40 -0400, "Claude Livernoche"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>My japanese bench chisels and plane irons arrived fully flattened and honed.
>A shokunin blacksmith would never let go his product without sharpening and
>honing it perfectly.
>
>Claude
>
>http://www3.sympatico.ca/claude.livernoche/index.html
>
>"charlie b" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
>news:[email protected]...
>> I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
>> a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
>> the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
>> for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
>> of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
>> the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
>> grind. That leads to my question:
>>
>> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
>> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
>> to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
>> spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
>> level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
>> back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
>> expected to shoulder that considerable work?
>>
>> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
>> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
>> plane irons?
>>
>> rant mode off
>>
>> charlie b
>> The Finger Printless One
>
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:44:05 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>> Most of us here would. The guy trying to decide between the Buck Brothers
>> and Stanley set probably would not.
>> Ed
>>
>lol... those two brands are already flat, but with grinding marks because neither
>company will spend the $$$ it takes to polish them. If you buy Hirsch and Two
>Cherries, those Germans go too far, polishing the backs to the point where they
>are so rounded it takes a lot of work to flatten them (yes I read about it).
>
>Alex
>
yep. polishing and grinding are two different things. if they'd grind
to 600 grit instead of 80 grit or so it would sure make my life
easier....
nowdays a lot of tool makers linish as the final step. it gets nice
and shiny, but rounds the corners...
Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
> full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
> 30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
1700??????
Jay, we need to talk...
;)
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> Reality sets in when I start bootsrtrapping with exactly sixty-three
> dollars forty-two cents in the bank.
Aye! Know that feeling only too well....
> Anyone got a brick?! One lousy brick?
I'm told they work wonders as abrasives for sharpening!
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
Charlie --
As you've discovered...
1) Time
and to them, that's:
2) Money
Better to have you do it for free than have you buy someone else's Chinese
chisels for $10 less.
I agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY.... Flatting chisel backs is tedious work,
and telling yourself you only have to do it once is little comfort.
You think it couldn't be THAT much extra work for them with automated
machinery and all.
John
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
> a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
> the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
> for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
> of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
> the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
> grind. That leads to my question:
>
> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
> to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
> spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
> level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
> back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
> expected to shoulder that considerable work?
>
> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
> plane irons?
>
> rant mode off
>
> charlie b
> The Finger Printless One
>B a r r y <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Noons wrote:
>
>
> >Hints:
> >Those diamond stones (DMT?) are precious for this
> >sort of thing: fastest cut I've ever seen. The rough blue one.
>
> I second that. The DMT stones don't dish like waterstones, and the
> XC-C-F-XF progression flattens backs FAST. I also like WD-40 lubed
> sandpaper on a jointer bed for flattening backs.
...
In addition to doing the coarse removal, the DMT Duostones are really
nice for flattening the waterstones, too. A med/fine Duostone used in
conjunction with a combo 1000/4000 waterstone has been an economical
and efficient route for me.
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 01:31:02 GMT, B a r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 6 Aug 2004 12:45:09 -0700, [email protected] (Nate Perkins)
>wrote:
>
>>In addition to doing the coarse removal, the DMT Duostones are really
>>nice for flattening the waterstones, too. A med/fine Duostone used in
>>conjunction with a combo 1000/4000 waterstone has been an economical
>>and efficient route for me.
>
>
>Great point! Me too.
>
>The DMT stones are very handy. I also like them for scrapers, as I
>can't accidentally destroy the surface with the skinny scraper edge.
Anyone here used the Diamond Reference Lapping Plate (DRLP) from
Shapton? At $489 it's not cheap, but I've read good things about
Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
That might make lapping your chisel backs a little easier!
JP
I feel your pain and frustration, Charlie. My solution? The Veritas MKII
power sharpening system. With this system I am able to flatten & hone a
bench chisel (and I'm seeing very little difference between a Marples blue
chip or a two cherries or even a Sears craftsman) in about 5-10 minutes.
Although there have been warnings about using this system with plane irons
(for flattening the backs), I've done it easily and successfully on about 7
irons thus far. So, to me, this is the ticket and well worth the price of
admission (and works a LOT better than the Tormek - for flat-edged tools,
not turning tools).
Mike
Yes Andy, flat, flat, flat.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:06:40 -0400, "Claude Livernoche"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >My japanese bench chisels and plane irons arrived fully flattened and
honed.
>
> ?
>
> Flat backs ?
>
>
> --
> Smert' spamionam
> Most of us here would. The guy trying to decide between the Buck Brothers
> and Stanley set probably would not.
> Ed
>
lol... those two brands are already flat, but with grinding marks because neither
company will spend the $$$ it takes to polish them. If you buy Hirsch and Two
Cherries, those Germans go too far, polishing the backs to the point where they
are so rounded it takes a lot of work to flatten them (yes I read about it).
Alex
The way to grind a flat smooth chisel back on a production basis would be
surface grinding. 80 grit would be as fine as you would want to go. 600
would clog, burn and produce a lousy finish. 80 will produce an extremely
fine finish. The dynamics of machine grinding are much different that the
off hand grinding most are familiar with.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> yep. polishing and grinding are two different things. if they'd grind
> to 600 grit instead of 80 grit or so it would sure make my life
> easier....
>
> nowdays a lot of tool makers linish as the final step. it gets nice
> and shiny, but rounds the corners...
If you really think about it how many times in a lifetime will you be doing
such an operation. Obviously it saves the manufacturer money but at the same
time it forces the purchaser to get used to the idea that you will need to
maintain 'em from the get-go. Besides who is to guess what happens to those
tools before they get to there new home. I personally love my time
sharpening tools and know that a machined 600 grit and power polish would
pale in comparison to my scary sharp flattened backs . But I'm just a
hobbyist and don't mind spending the extra time as long as I'm in the
shop... But your point is taken where did we loose that quality along the
way....
EJ
Nothing except maybe the Veritas power system can compare to the beginning
lapping method of 220 grit paper on glass or granite lubed with lamp oil.
Unless you have some cryogenically treated irons. Then nothing speeds the
process. Everyone seems ot forget that the property that keeps the edge means
it takes much longer to gett the edge.
Hi Ed.
A flat back and proper honing of my Marples Blue Chip "Made a big
difference" even though I wasted a day giving them a tune up.
I bought the Marple's because I liked the feel in my hand, and the
handle fit well when using both of my hands. After the tune up, they
make a reasonably good paring chisel and for cleaning up joints, they
work just fine "for me". So I'll get my monies worth out of them,
and eventually buy a better set.
However, I would have gladly paid an extra $20 for a flat backed
chisel or Iron.
The handles on the Stanley sets I've seen, look more like screw
drivers, and that's why I had no interest in their product. The
higher end sets that looked like they had a nice comfortable handle,
were out of my price range.
Like my plane - someday I'll buy a better set. But I still would have
paid extra if the manufacturer had flattened the backs
Pat
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:39:28 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> I'd gladly pay
>> an
>> additional $5 to get a flat backed chisel or iron.
>>
>> charlie b
>
>Most of us here would. The guy trying to decide between the Buck Brothers
>and Stanley set probably would not.
>Ed
>
On 8 Aug 2004 22:15:59 -0700, [email protected] (Noons) wrote:
>Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
>> full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
>> 30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
>
>1700??????
>Jay, we need to talk...
Indeed. You're not a venture capitalist are you?
JP
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 05:00:51 GMT, "John Moorhead"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>Charlie --
>
>As you've discovered...
>
>1) Time
>
>and to them, that's:
>
>2) Money
>
>Better to have you do it for free than have you buy someone else's Chinese
>chisels for $10 less.
True.
>I agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY.... Flatting chisel backs is tedious work,
>and telling yourself you only have to do it once is little comfort.
Buy a coarse diamond plate and it'll go in a minute or 2.
Of course, I just do the last 1/2-1" or so, then will touch
up more as the chisel wears.
>> charlie b
>> The Finger Printless One
You've just been added to the DHS WANTED list, dude.
- - -
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU!
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:43:02 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>Have any of you granite lappers ever considered that you crush the fibers
>more when using the chisel than the thousandths you're fussing about?
the sharper the edge the less "crush". how accurately you can follow
the line is a completely separate issue.
> Any
>want to bet you can trim to within thousandths of any line you mark?
how many thousanths? I'll bet you $1000 I can hit a line within .050
every time.
> Lap
>away the wire edge when sharpening for best edge, and go. You can't work to
>the tolerances you're talking about in wood.
I keep measuring tools that measure to .001 at hand in the shop. when
necessary I *do* work to those tolerances. when not necessary I don't.
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:43:02 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>Have any of you granite lappers ever considered that you crush the fibers
>more when using the chisel than the thousandths you're fussing about? Any
>want to bet you can trim to within thousandths of any line you mark? Lap
>away the wire edge when sharpening for best edge, and go. You can't work to
>the tolerances you're talking about in wood.
Maybe you're right, but I figure the sharper the better! I wasn't
really discussing tolerances - just tossing out some expensive dreams
about a pretty high-end sharpening system. I've heard that after
using the 30000 grit shapton stone you actually have to hold the
chisel *up* to prevent it from dropping right through the other side
of the mortise and ruining your piece.
JP
>"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:49:11 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Anyone here used the Diamond Reference Lapping Plate (DRLP) from
>> >Shapton? At $489 it's not cheap, but I've read good things about
>> >Shapton here on the wreck. For a mere $1773.89 you could have the
>> >full lineup - 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000, 150000 and
>> >30000 grit Professional series ceramic waterstones PLUS the DRLP.
>> >
>> >That might make lapping your chisel backs a little easier!
>>
>> At that price I think I'd hire someone to do it for me.
>>
>> Tim Douglass
>>
>> http://www.DouglassClan.com
>
My japanese bench chisels and plane irons arrived fully flattened and honed.
A shokunin blacksmith would never let go his product without sharpening and
honing it perfectly.
Claude
http://www3.sympatico.ca/claude.livernoche/index.html
"charlie b" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email protected]...
> I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
> a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
> the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
> for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
> of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
> the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
> grind. That leads to my question:
>
> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
> to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
> spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
> level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
> back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
> expected to shoulder that considerable work?
>
> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
> plane irons?
>
> rant mode off
>
> charlie b
> The Finger Printless One
You act as if the manufacturers are trying to do more than make your money
theirs.
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
> a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
> the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
> for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
> of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
> the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
> grind. That leads to my question:
>
> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
> to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
> spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
> level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
> back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
> expected to shoulder that considerable work?
>
> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
> plane irons?
>
> rant mode off
>
> charlie b
> The Finger Printless One
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just spent the better part of two days flattening the backs of
> a set of Two Cherries bench chisels, as set of #45 cutters and
> the irons on several planes, one of which being a Hock iron
> for a #7. Even using the sides of a Tormek wheel to get some
> of the high spots down and then japanese waterstones to get to
> the ready to fine hone surfaces, it was, appropriately, a real
> grind. That leads to my question:
>
> Why don't the manufactures of bench chisels and plane irons
> FLATTEN and Hone the backs of these tools? If they can grind
> to 220 grit why not at least go to 600? The time a buyer must
> spend just getting the bevel to honed and perhaps polished
> level is considerable, even with the likes of a Tormek. A flat
> back only needs to be created once - why should the user be
> expected to shoulder that considerable work?
>
> I can understand why carving chisels require sharpening
> and honing to the user's preferences. But bench chisels and
> plane irons?
>
> rant mode off
>
> charlie b
> The Finger Printless One
Spehar does surface-grind their plane blades after heat-treating. Very
quick to lap and get working.
Ed
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:06:40 -0400, "Claude Livernoche"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>My japanese bench chisels and plane irons arrived fully flattened and honed.
?
Flat backs ?
--
Smert' spamionam
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:30:31 +1000, Noons
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jay Pique apparently said,on my timestamp of 10/08/2004 9:24 PM:
>> Indeed. You're not a venture capitalist are you?
>
>No, but you need council! :)
Reality sets in when I start bootsrtrapping with exactly sixty-three
dollars forty-two cents in the bank.
JP
**********************
Anyone got a brick?! One lousy brick?
On 6 Aug 2004 12:45:09 -0700, [email protected] (Nate Perkins)
wrote:
>In addition to doing the coarse removal, the DMT Duostones are really
>nice for flattening the waterstones, too. A med/fine Duostone used in
>conjunction with a combo 1000/4000 waterstone has been an economical
>and efficient route for me.
Great point! Me too.
The DMT stones are very handy. I also like them for scrapers, as I
can't accidentally destroy the surface with the skinny scraper edge.
Barry