OT - Basic Skills in Today's World

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO

IMHO, TOTALLY incorrect.

New cars are easier to fix than the old stuff ever was (and need a lot less
of it) and the service garages are MUCH more expensive than they used to be.
Most of the dealer shops (and the franchise specialty garages) are staffed
with apprentice parts changers (not mechanics) who have no diagnostic skills
or inclination. They just keep on changing expensive parts till the
problem stops. The self serve scrap yards are a source of very cheap used
parts and the jobber parts stores sell parts of as good or far better
quality than the dealer for a fraction of the price, and often give parts
warranties that you can actually collect on. When a garage fails to fix a
problem usually YOU just keep paying them more and more until they (or
another shop) get it right.

When you buy ANY service,
- You are paying an inflated price (often for parts that are never installed
on your vehicle) + overhead + an excessive markup + lots of hidden taxes
plus added sales taxes AND you are paying in after income tax paid dollars.

When you DIY,
- You are paying wholesale, for only the parts you need, are saving ALL the
sales and other taxes on labor and overhead AND you do not pay any income or
sales tax on YOUR labor OR on the cash you save.

- You also do not need to have the work done at the shops convenience or
travel to (and from, TWICE) the shop for delivery and pickup, or to leave
the vehicle for several days. You do not need to wash grease off the
steering wheel and seats and fenders or clean out food scraps and garbage or
cigarette burns and smoke and butts and ashes.

- AND the chances are better that the job will be done right.

- And when you DIY you can watch for and keep track of the preventative
maintenance that will prevent the need for repairs (and towing) caused by
breakdown.

> Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
> that's another matter<G>.
>

BOAT = break out another thousand.

just my .02 YMMV

Blew your credibility with that statement. Work at a desk, don't you?

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of
> machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is
>

"Robert Sturgeon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I think you have a good point Robert.
> >
> >In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
> >"fragile" it becomes.
>
> A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a society
options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess and remediate
problems.

Jeff

In article <[email protected]>, Robert
Sturgeon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Steve wrote, "No, its just the workshop has changed, it can
> live in a computer, for instance, workshops are alive and
> well, they are just different, today's workshop can involved
> hooking up a wireless router to a wired LAN that supports
> Appletalk, before your time it was thatching a roof"
>
> A wired LAN is an artifact of the symbolic economy. It is a
> Good Thing, right now. But if what you need is a new roof,
> and there is no longer much demand for wireless routers,
> LANs, Appletalk, etc., (as would be the case in a post-SHTF
> scenario) then being able to mess with LANs and such, but
> not roofs, leaves you out.
>

There are plenty of roofers and roofing companies in my area. When I
needed a roof replacement several years ago, they did it in a tiny
fraction of the time (and effort) it would have taken me to figure out
how to do it, how to order the materials, how to fix the mistakes I
would inevitably make, how to finish the job.

Should I learn roofing now? Not hardly, as my own roof will likely not
need patching in the decades ahead of me. And I have no desire to make
it a career.

Ditto for welding, horseshoeing, logging, midwifing, and all sorts of
other jobs which some/many think will be up-n-coming career options in
the Post-Industrial Economy. ("You, too, can become a farrier. Just
call 1-800-HOR-SHOE for information on our study at home course!")

I expect that the "symbolic economy," as you call it, will become even
more important after a Big Event (SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, whatever). Wireless
networks, even over radio (and satellites, which will remain largely
unaffected) will be used to trade options and access to things.

Consider the rise of cellphones in Mogadishu after the civil war.

E-Bay and services of that sort will become MORE important, not LESS
important. Think about it. Combine online barter and sales with
jitney-type delivery services and new payment approaches and one has a
vibrant sub-economy.

(And vehicles will still be running. This is separate subject, but
there are many, many options for fueling. NG will not vanish, biofuels
are readily made, and even all-electric vehicles are here....one of my
neighbors has a large photovoltaic installation sufficient to charge up
his fleet of vehicles....a few entrepreneurs like this, mediating
trades via satphones and Mobile WiMax, could do quite well trading the
already-extant supply of tools, materials, and forms of money.)


Look to Hong Kong for one example, to Mogadishu for the other extreme.
Both remain heavily "symbolic."

--Tim May

digitalmaster wrote:
>>Specialization is for insects!
>
>
> Robert Heinlen I beleive.
>
I beleive so. Part of a long winded rant about all the things a person
should be able to do or at least be willing to try, given the opportunity.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

I was asked: COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?

I answered: Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let
somebody else do it.

Some points of clarification.

Where I came from, you start early in the morning to butcher a hog.

I don't do early in the morning any more.

Where I came from, you wait for cold weather to butcher a hog.

I don't do cold weather any more.

Where I came from, it's a lot of hard work to butcher a hog.

I don't do hard work any more.

Lew

George E. Cawthon wrote:
> Retief wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> COULD you butcher a hog, if you
>>>> really needed to?
>>> Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
>>> do it.
>>
>> No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
>> "grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
>> get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
>> of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.
>>
>> And everyone is happy and well fed... :)
>>
>> Retief
> How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

I would assume if you intended to eat it. Pork is Unclean, read your
Old Testament. If things broke down to the point where most people had
to butcher their own meat, Pork would be last choice. Proper
refrigeration and parasite control would certainly be long gone.

I'll stick with being able to butcher deer, beef, rabbit, and fowl.

Very good post Ron....I wish I had written it.

TMT

Ron Moore wrote:
> I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
> no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
> productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
> they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
> When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
> the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person and
> try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
> I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
> creativity is visible.
> Respectfully,
> Ron Moore
>
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> > skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> > you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> > the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> > training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >
> > When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> > anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> > of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >
> > Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> > is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> > today?
> >
> > TMT
> >

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

Critical thinking is a lost art. It's loss gave rise to the democrat
party. Two chickens in every pot. Nobody asked where the chickens
would come from, who would pay for them. It's part of the Robin Hood
mentality. My young son liked the Robin Hood story until I told him
that Bill Clinton thought we were on the verge of becoming rich. I
asked him which of his posessions he would like to have confiscated so
that someone else could enjoy them.

> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Another time my son came home from school and said we need to quit
cutting down trees and building houses. I said OK. Then I asked him
if he liked living in our house. He did. I told him that the building
material came from trees, and that the grounds we live on were once
forested. I asked if, when he left home, he wanted to live in an
apartment in the crime-ridden center part of the city. He didn't want
to do that.

> Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> today?

I certainly hope so, but with the media constantly pumping our
children's heads with their thoughts, how will they cope? They'll
probably all turn out to be good little unthinking voters, speeding our
way to socialism

> TMT
>
>
> Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
> Writer
> Thu Aug 3
>
> The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
> a distance.
>
> He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
> no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"
>
> The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
> bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
> they often have no clue how to handle home projects.
>
> For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
> parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
> learn basic repair skills.
>
> With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
> recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
> when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
> seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.
>
> "They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
> investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
> pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
> who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
> and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
> manual."
>
> Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
> young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.
>
> Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.
>
> Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
> Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
> He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
> because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.
>
> "The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
> trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
> they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
> them.'"
>
> Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
> in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
> tackle projects on their own, often to save money.
>
> "We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
> younger set," she says.
>
> For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
> try - and sometimes fail.
>
> With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
> hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
> kitchen.
>
> In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
> forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
> sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
> head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
> for a couple of other mishaps.
>
> "The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
> the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
> job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
> financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
> up."
>
> Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
> he means.
>
> Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
> bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
> the wall.
>
> "There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
> someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.
>
> But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
> then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.
>
> Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
> for know-how.
>
> Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
> classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
> dimmer switch.
>
> "It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
> they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
> who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.
>
> Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
> - the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.
>
> Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
> HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
> Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
> astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
> among young adults.
>
> While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
> shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
> closer to home: her mom.
>
> Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
> Chicago condo.
>
> But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
> She'll leave that to a professional.
>
> "I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
> much."
>
> ___
>
> On the Net:
>
> Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com
>
> Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/
>
> Lowe's clinics:
> http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actionclinicSchedProcessor

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> >skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> >you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> >the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> >training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >
> >When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> >anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> >of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >
> >Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> >is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> >today?
>
> By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
> concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
> real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
> icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
> world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
> the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
> data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
> entertainment, lawyering, etc.).
>
> A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
> about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
> post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
> meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
> to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
> people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
> society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
> more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
> real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
> to suffer a catastrophic collapse.
>
> Fun, huh???
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> >skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> >you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> >the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> >training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >
> >When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> >anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> >of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >
> >Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> >is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> >today?
>
> By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
> concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
> real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
> icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
> world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
> the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
> data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
> entertainment, lawyering, etc.).
>
> A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
> about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
> post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
> meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
> to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
> people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
> society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
> more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
> real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
> to suffer a catastrophic collapse.
>
> Fun, huh???
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

F. George McDuffee wrote:

With the
> imposition of "Academic Trivial Pursuit" AKA "no child left
> behind," what was imposed was instruction in the skills necessary
> to score well on standardized objective tests [bingo cards] and
> short-term rote memorization and rapid recall of "factoids."

> This is yet another example, where a critical public asset or
> facility, in this case free compulsory education, has been
> hi-jacked by the elite so they can impose their ideology and skim
> the benefits (i.e. college preparatory education) while the vast
> majority is deprived of the benefits (i.e. preparation for life
> rather than for yet more education) although the majority is
> expected to keep paying [more] for it.
>
> The cure for this is local action, where the voters (parents)
> fire the existing school board, and where the new school board
> then fires the existing superintendents and principals, and so
> on.
>
>
> Unka George
> (George McDuffee)
>

I agree with most of what you said. I do think that we need some
method of measuring the effectiveness of schools. So we do need
standard objective tests. And we do need to teach a certain amount of
" factoids " as well as principles. Knowing a certain amount of facts
allows one to concentrate on the larger problem. I would hate to go
thru life having to look up the value of Pi when I need to know the
area of a circle or go find a calculator. But we also need to teach
understanding what accuracy is needed when using Pi.

The current tests may not be what is needed. But one needs to be able
to put numbers on things in order to optimize. Sure more teachers are
good, but what is the most cost effective number of kids in a class?
And does it vary by age. Does it vary by the subject being taught. In
high school the class size is about 30 to 35. But suddenly in college
the class size might be 300 to 400.

And I think we need more competition in schools. The existing school
board may or may not need to be fired. But there needs to be more
charter schools and vouchers for private schools so students have
choices. We need schools that prepare students for college as well as
schools that prepare students for living without a college degree.
Without competition the public schools are going to go for the one size
fits all. It is a lot easier to administrate.


Dan

>>Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation
who
>>is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
>>today?


A lot of it is simply due to the large population. There are way more
people now, so there's going to be a higher number of younger people who
don't know a wrench from a socket, making the problem seem epidemic.
But the actual percentage of younger people today with basic skills
probably is not too much lower than previous eras of young people. Just
higher numners now, due to the increased population.
Statistics/mathematics 101. I am 33 and all of my friends and I grew up
helping our dads put additions onto the house, wrench on the family
wagon, etc.. There were girls in our shop and wood classes. Probably
30% were girls. Plus, I took sewing!

An early 20's female friend of mine called me recently, frustrated. She
couldn't get her bed apart. She was moving. I went over there. She
was literally beating, with a hammer, the nuts and bolts holding the bed
together! "These screws won't pop off!", she said. "Um, because those
aren't screws. Even if they were screws, the way to get them out would
be to use a screwdriver. But those are nuts and bolts." So I used a
screwdriver and a 10mm wrench to remove the bolts. I tried to keep from
making fun of her utter and complete lack of even the basic mechanical
skills.

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Ron Moore wrote:
> I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
> no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
> productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
> they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
> When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
> the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person and
> try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
> I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
> creativity is visible.

> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> > skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> > you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> > the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> > training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >
> > When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> > anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> > of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >
> > Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> > is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> > today?

No. I was raised completely without basic carpentry or mechanical
skills, completely without knowledge of how nature worked, of how food
got to the table. It wasn't taught at home or at school. The joke
about the VCR blinking "12:00" in perpetuity seems sad to me. READ THE
DIRECTIONS! Figure it out. Fix it. My parents seem to think that
things operate (or don't) because of some malevolent force that's out
to ruin their day. "Why isn't this stupid thing working again!!" Uhh,
because you tossed out the directions without reading them, never
maintained it and now you can't or won't investigate the problem. I
could really go on a jag, but I feel like there's a huge lack of
reality to a lot of what's taught these days. We weren't given
real-life examples of how geometry or trig could be useful - much less
calculus. It's frustrating to be learning basic skills this late in
life, and I'm still a fairly young guy.

JP

It came evident when the basic mom wanted a rocket scientist or Doctor / Lawyer as a son/daughter.
The schools were being and are still being hammered on numbers - those that
go to college are value, those that get trade jobs are nothing - just like dropouts.
So money and care to trade classes went to lit and social classes - every one needed to read....
Power base shift from life to socialism. As some of these children
moved into higher education and into jobs - they found being able to think, sit, walk, work,
learn-on-the-fly and under pressure - was getting harder - it was done for themselves.

Those with skills continued to thrive as they fed both business and now a larger base of need.

My wife has a tool box. I keep it stocked the tools and such that we need for the house - and
bought her a nice Dewalt screwdriver - that she drills and screws into the house at will. I introduced
the 60 and 100# wallboard hanger - so now she is doing her thing and using me as needed.
Now I have a willing and trained - yes I helped her do it at first - when I need help.

My object in this was simple. A friend of mine lost his dad. The mother didn't know how to
pay bills, ........fix anything... and lost most of here money in a money shuffle stock manager...

I decided to get my wife geared in such a way she could run the house and her life as needed.
I was flying all over the world and working 10 miles from a 'firing range' or cease fire line
as it is really called. Flying into 5 countries in two days and driving in foreign countries
trying to save some company or someones job. I almost didn't come back on one trip and another
it was an emergency recall from France to Switzerland to L.A. (non-stop) to San Jose - with 2 hours
between planes in Switzerland. Swiss Air did a wonderful thing by routing me on a special plane
they had going.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> I think you have a good point Robert.
>
> In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
> "fragile" it becomes.
>
> TMT
>
> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>
>>On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
>>>skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
>>>you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
>>>the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
>>>training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
>>>
>>>When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
>>>anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
>>>of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
>>>
>>>Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
>>>is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
>>>today?
>>
>>By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
>>concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
>>real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
>>icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
>>world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
>>the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
>>data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
>>entertainment, lawyering, etc.).
>>
>>A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
>>about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
>>post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
>>meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
>>to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
>>people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
>>society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
>>more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
>>real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
>>to suffer a catastrophic collapse.
>>
>>Fun, huh???
>>
>>--
>>Robert Sturgeon
>>Summum ius summa inuria.
>>http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
>
>

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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> you get the idea...

caused some of those skills are rarely needed, I rarely get any flats
anymore, haven't had one in ten years, I used to get them at least once
a year 25 years ago.

TV's can't be repaired

now it's cheaper to buy a new lawnmower then to fix one (due to China
the price of a new one is less now then 25 years ago, and our income
has gone way up, the cost of parts, however, has stayed the same)

car's rarely break now, and they need very little mainteance (tune
ups), yes you still can and need to change your brakes, alternators,
starters but it simply doesn't justify the cost of a well appointed
home mechanics workshop, like it did before when the typical repair
list was twice as long and 5 times more frequent

there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
>

but think back to when you were a teenager, I can think of a large
percentage that lack basic skills back then, I don't think it's any
worse now


> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

No, its just the workshop has changed, it can live in a computer, for
instance, workshops are alive and well, they are just different,
today's workshop can involved hooking up a wireless router to a wired
LAN that supports Appletalk, before your time it was thatching a roof


>
> Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> today?
>

yes, they will learn what is necessary

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

> A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
> about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
> post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
> meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
> to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
> people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
> society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
> more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
> real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
> to suffer a catastrophic collapse.
>
> Fun, huh???
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

One man's catastrophe is another's opportunity. Raise your kids to
understand both worlds and they'll come out alright. For sure my
eldest (7yo) is learning to pound nails, piano keys, and keyboards.
This is why we recently moved out of town onto a small farm -- the
shift is doing him good. We replaced the exhaust manifold on the
little Allis Chalmers we use for mowing and he learned a fair bit about
internal combustion engines. If dawned on him the other day that
checking the oil in the car would be a good idea -- though the "Dad,
where's the carbeurator?" question took a while to answer and I don't
think he really got it.

hex
-30-

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>

etc etc.

Ok, started reading this at reply 70 (or something like that) , so,
firing up my Beta copy of MS RANT, here is my contribution.

RANT
ON..............................................................................

I am in agreement with everyone. Its all stuffed becasue the Youth of
Today are slack, cant drive a nail, butcher a hog, build their own 4
engine heavy bomber etc - all the stuff WE did as kids. (yeh, sure....)

And I bet they dont have to walk to school, barefoot, through the snow,
with only a pointy stick to protect themselves against wolves......

Get real, people. Its ALWAYS been like this - we are a bunch of Old
Farts who get the shits because our 10yo grandchildren can program our
cellphones, but we cant. I think Socrates or Aristotle wrote about this
a few thousand years ago. Nothings changed.

This group is devoted to people like us, it self-selects people who
like building things (with machine tools), who take great pride in hard
learned skills, and yet are slightly AMAZED that the rest of the world
doesnt find them at all interesting. Funny that. Wonder why?

So, dont take it too seriously - what will get us all in the end is
collapse of the basic infrastructure that allows us (among other
things) to sit in front of our PC's and have mad rants like this.
Loosen up, lighten up - just because we are not awash with competent
machinists or skilled artisans doesnt mean that society is ruined.

So........

RANT
OFF.................................................................................

>> That's not entirely true. The builder can build the house cheaper
>> with a plain two car garage. How many people actually only store
>> only their cars in their garages?
>>
> And he can sell it cheaper...The market is driven by the buyer.If more
> people are willing to pay for a shop more builders will build houses
> with a shop.If most people do not want to pay extra for a shop they
> are not built.Builders try to build what sells.


My neighbor has a 25' by 30' or so shed/mini barn. An Amish crew (we live
in Ohio) came out and built it in one day, a couple of years ago. $6500
for 750 square feet; that's only $8 per square foot. It's a real beautiful
structure with tons of overhead storage (it's a tall shed). He has a table
saw and a planer and all the other toys in it. Speakers in the corners
hooked to a stereo receiver. Wood burning stove. And if they ever sell
their house, the shed is a huge selling point. Now to talk my wife into us
getting one!

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steve wrote:

>
> TV's can't be repaired
>
> now it's cheaper to buy a new lawnmower then to fix one (due to China
> the price of a new one is less now then 25 years ago, and our income
> has gone way up, the cost of parts, however, has stayed the same)
>
> car's rarely break now, and they need very little mainteance (tune
> ups), yes you still can and need to change your brakes, alternators,
> starters but it simply doesn't justify the cost of a well appointed
> home mechanics workshop, like it did before when the typical repair
> list was twice as long and 5 times more frequent
>

TV's can be repaired, but it probably not cost effective unless you
enjoy puzzles. My wife does crossword puzzles, I do different kinds of
puzzles. Yesterday I repaired the dishwasher. One of the hinges had
fatigued and failed. It was less work to remove the door and hinge,
weld the hinge, and reassemble than it would have been to go buy
another dishwasher and install it.

If you are looking for lawn mower parts, look on Ebay. Lots of places
that sell things as pistons and rings at reasonable prices.

Cars may not break as often, but they do still have problems. I need
to pull the gasolene tank on my truck and fix the fuel gauge sensor.
It won't take a well appointed home mechanic workshop to do most of it.
Fixing the sensor might. Have not seen what the problem is.

But are these basic skills in todays world. To me basic skills today
are more about how to determine who is a good dentist, auto mechanic,
plumber, etc. How to use Ebay and Craigslist, to find the things you
want and need. Figuring out what stocks to buy is more important than
being able to create you own well. Knowing how to find information
when you need it is a basic skill.

Dan

Problem with a sow that big is they will run you down if they want.
Mom once kicked a big sow and it charged here. Grandma had to come
and run it off. Since the sow grew from a piglet under the slop bucket
from Grandma.

So don't wish for the biggest.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/



John Husvar wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mark Trudgill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Those I used to butcher as beef and bone them out as if not you'd end up
>>with pork chops nearly 2" thick and weighing about 40oz each!!
>
>
> Ummmm.
>
> Pray tell: What is the downside here. :)
>
> John, lover of _thick_ pork chops; seared, then slow grilled.
>

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Too_Many_Tools wrote:

> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> the world we live in.

You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a
ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The
inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of
the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut...
the experienced finger tighten, palm the ratchet mechanism, and only
shift down to the end of the handle for the last little bit. Of course
we haven't thought about that since we were 8 or so... which is why
it's so shocking to see how a newbie treats the tool!

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> >
>
> Was the electricity out for six months? Nation wide? It is possible.

Possible but highly unlikely. In the Pacific NW lots of the
electricity is hydroelectric.
Other places are coal, or natural gas. What do you see as possibly
causing a nation wide power outage?


Dan

"And all they had to shock them was an inefficient social/economic
system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant disaster."

Robert, you missed the BIG one.. the Cold War arms race caused them to
spend their society into the ground.

Now consider where the United States (Republican) budget deficit stands
at this moment and ask yourself how close we are to the same situation.

A heck of a lot closer than we were in 2000.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> (snips)
>
> >> I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
> >> an economic/societal collapse. Different story...
> >
> >Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
> >collapse mean to you?
> >
> >Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a bang,
> >over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent to
> >many who are living through it.
>
> That's possible, and most likely. But...
>
> I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
> in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
> etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
> systems go into paralysis. No banks open, no stock markets,
> no commodity markets. No way to maintain the electrical
> grids, because of no way to pay the workers and suppliers.
> No way to restart the financial markets, because most of the
> leadership and workers in NYC are dead, and the buildings
> are in ruins, and the financial infrastructure won't be
> rebuilt for years, if ever. Then what's left of the fed gov
> (most of the leadership already being dead) starts
> distributing the billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars
> in paper money they have stored up for just such an
> emergency. Then the worker bees in places like Denver and
> San Jose figure out that they aren't going to get paid, and
> if they do get paid, it will be in money that is losing its
> value faster than a 1923 German Mark. Then you go to your
> standard rioting, looting, killing, and general collapse of
> society. Millions of dead bodies start piling up, and the
> population of the U.S. is rapidly heading towards half or
> less of what it was a couple of months before. State and
> local governments start devolving from fed gov control and
> issue their own currencies, which don't hold their value
> either. Local warlords start... well, you get the idea.
>
> I'm not suggesting that is likely, or even the most likely
> result of that nuclear attack scenario. What I am saying is
> -- assuming that it can't possibly happen is a mistake. It
> has recently happened, to lesser extents, in societies which
> have suffered lesser shocks. A good example is the former
> USSR, which has gone through a monetary collapse, a severe
> population decline (the life expectancy is now only about
> 60), a social collapse, with alcoholism becoming even a
> bigger problem (contributing to that life expectancy
> decrease) and with millions of pensioners becoming
> impoverished as their state pensions' values evaporated
> along with the value of the ruble. And all they had to
> shock them was an inefficient social/economic system, a
> failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant
> disaster. Extrapolate the results from my 5 or 6 nukes
> scenario, and you easily get to a near-total societal
> collapse. For fictional depictions, see: The Postman, Road
> Warrior, etc.
>
> It wouldn't be like the transition from buggy whips to Model
> Ts. It would be a transition from the complex, highly
> ordered Information Society to a chaotic world of scarcity,
> destruction, and death. Another poster summed it up
> succinctly in another thread -- no cops.
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Trevor Jones wrote:
>
> > It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
> > hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
> > anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
> > electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
> > roadside.
>
> <snip>
>
> Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.
>
> If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
> car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
> unit.
>
> Want to change your oil?
>
> 6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
> for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
> least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.
>

BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.


> Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.
>
> Want to change the coolant every couple of years?
>
> Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
> being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new coolant.

>
> The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
> tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.

>
> Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
> even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.

>
> Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
> for the first 75,000 miles.
>
> Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.

>
> Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
> that's another matter<G>.
>
> Lew

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Gunner <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>>>
>>> 6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than
paying
>>> for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area
at
>>> least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.
>>>
>>
>>BULL.
>>New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.
>
> $12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
> whale oil in silver flasks?
>
>
> Even Mobile 1 is less than $5
>
>
> Gunner
>
> "I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
> As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
> patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
> in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist
>


A quart of Pennzoil 10w-30 down at the mom and pop service station here
in town is only $2/quart. I think it's $1.50/quart at kmart. I usually
buy it by the case.

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Gunner wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> 6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
>>> for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
>>> least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.
>>>
>> BULL.
>> New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.
>
> $12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
> whale oil in silver flasks?
>
>
> Even Mobile 1 is less than $5
>
>
> Gunner
>
> "I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
> As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
> patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
> in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist


Total price of 12 bucks in quart bottles@ 5 quarts. Buy the 5 quart
bottle and it is about 9 bucks.

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Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:34:47 -0400, LiRM <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> >>skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> >>you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> >>the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> >>training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >>
> >>When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> >>anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> >>of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >>
> >>Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> >>is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> >>today?
> >>
> >>TMT
> >
> >I grew up around an uncle who literally rebuilt his entire house.
>
> My father literally built his house -- cement work,
> plumbing, framing, siding, wiring, roofing, everything. I
> am somewhat embarrassed that I will probably hire my roof
> replaced. It comes down to 2 factors: he HAD to (no money);
> and I don't want to. I'm sure I could redo the roof if I
> really needed to. I used to do stuff like that all the
> time. Now I'm lazy (and old) -- and I want it done right,
> not cheaply.

I've built 3 houses including one 3 storey one of 5400 sq ft. That
taught me not to build houses. Unfortunately I found a lovely piece of
land on waterfront. I could afford the land and some building
materials. I couldn't afford to pay for labour unless I sold one of my
other properties, which I wasn't going to do. So, I built another
house. At least I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Finished
the house then started on the shop (I built a small temporary shop
first, of course).

I did contract out the slab for the big workshop, tho. There's 20 cubic
metres of concrete in the slab on top of the 16 cubic metres in the
footings. The rest I'm doing myself.

People like us *can* do it if we have to or want to. Others - can't.
I've gotten a great deal of amusement watching the architect g/f of a
friend of mine realise just how limited her knowledge base was when it
came to actually building a place. She & he have managed to build a 24'
x 20' shed in the same time I built a house. I had to lend them some
tools, teach them how to use others and explain why, sometimes, 'near
enough' is ok if 'perfect' is going to take 10X as long.

Also that hand sanding boards with 400 wet & dry isn't a real
productive activity :-) Better to go 80 grit, 120, 180 etc. And use a
power sander, or better still, paint it & forget it. It was only a
facia board after all....

My 3 kids have no real interest in the skills I have, and I've never
barred them from the workshop. Rather play computer games. Of my
siblings, I was the only one to have an interest in this sort of stuff.
Lots of tools about. Shrug. I forsee an interesting retirement fixing
stuff for my daughters in the years to come, assuming that their
eventual partners turn oout as useless as the majority these days.

If they can find me when they need me, that is.

PDW

Gunner wrote:
> And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
> garage door open for more than 30 minutes.
>

This is what I don't understand. When I was coming up, your house
looked *abandoned* of you didn't have the garage door open. Everyone
in my neighborhood had their garage open all day long...it signified
someone was home...someone actually lived there. Kids were always
playing hoops above the garage door, or girls were jumping rope with
friends in the driveway. Or if you looked up in the trees, there were
kids plotting all sorts of mischief.

Nowdays, I drive through a neighborhood, and all the doors are closed.
THAT is what looks ugliest to me.

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT, Gunner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> ... snip
> >
> >
> >Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:
> >
> >Righty tighty, lefty loosey.
> >
>
> Only time I have a problem with that is when the nut is on the bottom of
> something and I'm reaching down and around a bunch of obstacles from the
> top. Then I have to remember that CCW for the nut is CW when viewed from
> the top. And that's after 15+ years working on a farm (first 8 years
> weren't that productive :-) ) as well as various machinery work after
> getting out of college.

hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.

twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

Ron Moore wrote:
> I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
> no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
> productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
> they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
I know -- what kind of person can actually park a car in their garage
without moving at least one piece of heavy equipment? It's just not
right, I tells ya'! It's important for me to have a shop, and I'm
looking forward to teaching my kids how to make stuff.

> > When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> > anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> > of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
I agree. I think it's sad that fewer people make stuff with thier own
hands. Not that it's required to get by anymore... you can buy a lot of
stuff so cheaply that there isn't a big reason to make your own stuff
any more. And a lot of stuff has gotten so complex that it's far
cheaper to replace it, or take it to a specialist if it breaks.

> > Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> > is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> > today?
> >
> > TMT
Well, I'd have to say that yes, they do. The world is changing. People
who can fix things are still needed, but not to the degree they were
before. There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of
machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is
a demand for people who can do a good job designing things, though.

Most people can figure out how to make the stuff they deal with work
well enough to get by... Maybe it's not perfect, but it's good enough.

Personally, I wish they had more shop classes in school. I think the
most useful class I took in high school was metal shop. It was fun, and
I Learned a whole lot about how to make things work. But my personal
desires don't have much to do with the current economic reality of
off-shoring manufacturing and competition with China.

It's disapointing that in the four or so years that I've had a shop in
my garage, not one kid has asked me anything about it.

Jeff Polaski

Steve W. wrote:
> New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Just so you know, you can get five quarts of synthetic oil for about
$12.00 at WallMart. If you go for the name brand stuff it's about
$20.00 for five quarts.

Jeff P.

> > hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.
> >
> > twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
> > will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.
> >
>
> Don't do this if you're replacing the clutch on a
> Hamilton Beach commercial blender. <VBG>
Or driver-side lug nuts on an old Dodge...

Jeff P.

Gunner wrote:
> LITTLE BOXES
...
> Pete Seeger

It was actually written by Malvina Reynolds, not Pete Seeger

See http://www.ocap.ca/songs/littlbox.html

John Cowart

[email protected] wrote:

> Critical thinking is a lost art. It's loss gave rise to the democrat
> party. Two chickens in every pot. Nobody asked where the chickens
> would come from, who would pay for them. It's part of the Robin Hood
> mentality. My young son liked the Robin Hood story until I told him
> that Bill Clinton thought we were on the verge of becoming rich. I
> asked him which of his posessions he would like to have confiscated so
> that someone else could enjoy them.

That's pure partisan rhetoric. Do you honestly think Republicans have
the corner on personal accountability? Everyone else is a welfare
recipient, eh?

> Another time my son came home from school and said we need to quit
> cutting down trees and building houses. I said OK. Then I asked him
> if he liked living in our house. He did. I told him that the building
> material came from trees, and that the grounds we live on were once
> forested. I asked if, when he left home, he wanted to live in an
> apartment in the crime-ridden center part of the city. He didn't want
> to do that.

That has nothing to do with the fact that human overpopulation is
outstripping forests' ability to renew themselves. Any idiot knows that
trees are cut to build houses, but "conservative" idiots treat nature
as a bottomless pit of materials. Their motivation is to grow the
population and economy forever, leaving no balance in the system.

R. Lander

Jay Pique wrote:

> No. I was raised completely without basic carpentry or mechanical
> skills, completely without knowledge of how nature worked, of how food
> got to the table...

Many people understand how to manipulate nature, but they're clueless
about nature's limits, and how Man is pushing those limits to the edge.
This IS a survival newsgroup, after all. Home repair can be learned
with common sense and instructions if one has the will. What's really
hard to teach is respect for the land and conservation values that can
prevent societal collapse. Greed is the norm but it won't fix anything
in the long run. Anyone who's a survivalist and a "conservative" had
better stop wasting and start conserving for a change.

R. Lander

J. Clarke wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > Gunner wrote:
> >> And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
> >> garage door open for more than 30 minutes.
> >>
> >
> > This is what I don't understand. When I was coming up, your house
> > looked *abandoned* of you didn't have the garage door open. Everyone
> > in my neighborhood had their garage open all day long...it signified
> > someone was home...someone actually lived there. Kids were always
> > playing hoops above the garage door, or girls were jumping rope with
> > friends in the driveway. Or if you looked up in the trees, there were
> > kids plotting all sorts of mischief.
> >
> > Nowdays, I drive through a neighborhood, and all the doors are closed.
> > THAT is what looks ugliest to me.
>
> These "homeowner's associations" need to be taken down a peg. They're
> starting to get too big for their britches. I would _not_ buy in a
> community where there was such a thing.
>

A friend of mine built his shop in such an area. It's a large shop for
a hobby woodworker (32' x 48' with a full basement), but to match the
other houses in the area, he had to add a brick front. I didn't ask how
much extra that added to the cost, but brick and the masons don't come
all that cheap, even around here. I live in the boonies, have a smaller
shop, and did it in rough, green wood, board and batten style. One
helluva lot cheaper, even if it is fairly ugly.

Private wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Around $15.00 for oil and a filter and I have too provide the labor to
> > change as well as providing the labor to disposel of the used oil.
> >
> > From time to time, local gas station offers an oil change with filter for
> > $14.95, otherwise the going rate is about $20.00
> >
> > I have better things to do with my time than trying to save $0-$5 max by
> > playing grease monkey.
>
> You are correct that oil changes are inexpensive and frequently offered as
> loss leaders, however:
>
> A - I buy my premium oil by the (several) case when it is on sale, same for
> premium filters. The oil and filters used by cheap oil changers are not of
> equal quality.
> B - I can change the oil at home in MUCH less time than it takes to travel
> (more $ for gas) and wait for someone else to do the job, according to how
> busy they are this wait is often not insignificant.
> C - By doing the work myself, I can do it at my convenience and when it
> should be done at not when I have the time to schedule the chore into the
> time the oil changer has available. There is never a line up at home and I
> am open for business any time I want to be.
> D - I do not change my own oil because I am saving money (which I do, but
> not a substantial amount). I do it because it is easier, quicker and more
> convenient. It is usually combined with other preventative maintenance work
> which I do not trust an oil changer to perform. I did make the mistake of
> going to an oil changer (once) and because I thought it would be convenient
> (long story), had them check and change the manual transmission oil and top
> off the OD. I neglected to get a firm price quote for this service and
> ended up paying a huge amount for the trans service and the trans oil AND
> had to show the kid how to do the job as he did not have a clue.
>
> Self sufficiency is an attitude and a lifestyle which cannot be explained to
> people who do not share similar feelings. Different strokes for different
> folks, as always YMMV
Well put, Private.

I change my own oil and do the maintenance because it generally saves
time and costs about the same. I know the quality of the stuff I use if
good, and I can change the oil faster than I can drive to the
quick-lube place and back. Plus all the other reasons you listed.

Doing maintenance might not be for everyone, but I think more people
should at least learn the basics. Also, if you know more about how your
car works, you're less likely to get ripped off when you need to take
it in.

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 18:15:26 -0400, "digitalmaster"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>> > It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh
>>> > basic skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how
>>> > to...well you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs
>>> > to deal with the world we live in.
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
>>> specialized equipment.
>>Not true.specialized equipment helps troubleshoot some problems.You
>>can still change plugs,wires,air filter,brakes.oil,transmission
>>filter,etc. without "a lot of specialized tools."
>
> Well, there is a component here that hasn't been addressed in any way-
> I've been doing construction and steel work my whole life, and as a
> result, I'm a pretty big guy. When it comes to knowing *what* to do
> to fix the car, there isn't a problem- but when it comes down to
> trying to fish my arm down through an engine when every availible inch
> has been packed full of vacuum lines and plastic covers, the job
> becomes impossible. It's not a matter of complexity, it's a matter of
> space, and I'd much rather find a mechanic who needs some remodeling
> done in exchange for a repair job then spend 14 hours and half my skin
> on my day off trying to do something that someone else can do in 30
> minutes.
>

My last truck was an '87 Dodge Ram D150 with the 225 ci slant 6 engine
and was real durable and reliable. While doing maintenance on it, there
was tons of room in the engine compartment. You could climb into it if
you wanted. Everything was easy to get to. You didn't have to spend an
hour removing other stuff to get to the part you needed to get to.
Working on an older full size truck with a straight 6 spoils you, and
then you open up the hood on a modern FWD car! Wires, vacuum hoses, EFI
everywhere, no gaps! packed like sardines.

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R. Lander wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Critical thinking is a lost art. It's loss gave rise to the democrat
> > party. Two chickens in every pot. Nobody asked where the chickens
> > would come from, who would pay for them. It's part of the Robin Hood
> > mentality. My young son liked the Robin Hood story until I told him
> > that Bill Clinton thought we were on the verge of becoming rich. I
> > asked him which of his posessions he would like to have confiscated so
> > that someone else could enjoy them.
>
> That's pure partisan rhetoric. Do you honestly think Republicans have
> the corner on personal accountability? Everyone else is a welfare
> recipient, eh?

Of course not. Don't be so silly.

If not a welfare recipient, then a welfare advocate.

> > Another time my son came home from school and said we need to quit
> > cutting down trees and building houses. I said OK. Then I asked him
> > if he liked living in our house. He did. I told him that the building
> > material came from trees, and that the grounds we live on were once
> > forested. I asked if, when he left home, he wanted to live in an
> > apartment in the crime-ridden center part of the city. He didn't want
> > to do that.
>
> That has nothing to do with the fact that human overpopulation is
> outstripping forests' ability to renew themselves. Any idiot knows that
> trees are cut to build houses,

Mmmm I don't know. Winston seemed to want to argue it.

> but "conservative" idiots treat nature
> as a bottomless pit of materials.

We do? Gosh, I guess I didn't need to put 160,000 miles on a Geo Metro
when I could have enjoyed driving Blazer? My home is 1600 sqft instead
of 2000 to 2200 that seems to be the "starter" home of today.

> Their motivation is to grow the
> population and economy forever, leaving no balance in the system.
>
> R. Lander

Yep, all those conservative hispanic, moslem, hindu, and chinese
"wingers" keep growing the population. No go back and do your homework
before you say something else as stupid.

pipedope wrote:
> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>
> > The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> > land now than in 1900.
>
> But how does it compare to, say, 1400?

You tell us...

> On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
> tree farm land.
>
> michael

You have a problem with trees being replanted for future cuts?

Koz wrote:
> pipedope wrote:
>
> > Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >
> >> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> >> land now than in 1900.
> >
> >
> > But how does it compare to, say, 1400?
> >
> > On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
> > tree farm land.
> >
> > michael
>
> You can go on....comparing virgin forests of 1400 to what is there today
> by comparing acres in forest is apples to oranges in the worst sense.
> It's like saying the city park is a "forest" because there are trees in it.

If the canopy coverage is greater than 50%, it is forest.

> You have to compare board feet of harvestable timber as well as issues
> such as forest diversity and health, watershed necessities (can't cut it
> if your towns water is collected there) and whether that harvestable
> timber has any reasonable value (Lots of maple in Washington but mostly
> only good for fire wood), "green" load..as in how much a tree type
> contributes to air cleaning and oxygen production (a cactus is
> considered a tree but has a low green load), etc...

Perhaps. Is it private land?

> The issue is far
> more complex than a right-wing radio sound bite.

Then how will the lefties ever understand it?

> The US Forest Service, by the way, had it's ass kicked a few years back
> for calling large tracts of land above the timberline in elevation as
> harvestable forest lands. Games people play.

With GIS all things are possible.

> Koz

And the Fish And Wildlife Service DIDN'T have its ass kicked for
falsifying the range extent of a lynx for the purpose of denying
sportsmen access to millions of acres of BLM land.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Private" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Self sufficiency is an attitude and a lifestyle which cannot be explained
> > to people who do not share similar feelings.
>
> Raise your own livestock, grow your own veggies and generate your own
> electricity?

Hah. I have a friend still doing that, mostly, out west where there is
more space. But he's about the same age I am, and is now looking to
sell his land, the house he and his first ex built, and move closer to
civilization as the creaks of age become louder than the fears of youth
and middle age. He's as self-sufficient as anyone I've ever met, but is
smart enough to realize that it's time to get a tad closer to medical
help, among other things.

Self-sufficiency in today's world is pretty much illusory. Someone
still had to supply his batteries for the wind-power set up; he had to
locate the motorcycles he rebuilt to make money and buy the parts to
repair them; even the fence lines he worked on to make spare cash had
to belong to someone.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Last time I changed oil was in May, 1991. I had about 3000 miles on my new
> Regal. It was not easier, quicker, or more convenient. It was a royal PITA
> that was never repeated. I can come and go as I please at work so time is
> not a problem. I just go over to Bill's and pay $25. Yes, I can take a
> look around under the car while is on the lift, even when it is 10 degrees
> outside and snow is falling. I have no plans to ever crawl under a car and
> change oil again even if a new model is easier.
>
>
> > Self sufficiency is an attitude and a lifestyle which cannot be explained
> > to people who do not share similar feelings.
>
> Raise your own livestock, grow your own veggies and generate your own
> electricity?

Like anything the more one does something the easier it gets. Changing
the oil is the same way.

I live about 7 miles to any commercial establishments, although there
is a garage about three miles away. But it is on the fringe of a
residential area and there are no other businesses within easy walking
distance. So for me to take my truck somewhere to get the oil changed
is a royal PITA. Also note that I have a truck. Way easier than
changing the oil on a car. Lots more room all around the engine. So
to change the oil, I pull out a couple of ramps and drive the front
wheels on them. That really gives lots of room to get under with a
creeper. I have an old stainless steel container that the oil drains
into. I have the right size oil filter wrench and a funnel to drain
the oil from the stainless container back into the now empty oil
bottles. So I can change the oil in about the same time as a garage
can. Don't save much money, but do save the time to drive somewhere
and back.

If I had a Buick, I would take it somewhere.

I do grow some veggies, and cut firewood to heat the house and shop.
In the PNW it is hard to compete with commercial hydroelectric power.

Dan
Bainbridge
Island, Wa.

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:32:34 +0100, Steve Taylor
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >R. Lander wrote:
> >
> >> That has nothing to do with the fact that human overpopulation is
> >> outstripping forests' ability to renew themselves.
> >
> >Except in Russia, where the growth of forests has been enormous over the
> >last few years.

(source?)

> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> land now than in 1900.

Since 1900 perhaps, but not compared to the pinnacle of replanting
efforts several decades ago. We cut down trees to build more homes each
day. There's no physical way a population can be kept growing without
using more timber unless steel framework supplants most of it. The
forest industry puts out smooth propaganda, but renewability is being
lost to population growth in most places. They plant tree farms at
higher density and try to call it "more acreage."

http://mvh.sr.unh.edu/mvhinvestigations/old_growth_forests.htm
(compare 1926 to 1990)

R. Lander

Steve Taylor wrote:

> R. Lander wrote:
>
> > That has nothing to do with the fact that human overpopulation is
> > outstripping forests' ability to renew themselves.
>
> Except in Russia, where the growth of forests has been enormous over the
> last few years.

Are you talking about a few plots here and there? Communism was as bad
or worse for nature than unfettered capitalism. Where are you getting
your information?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1586889.stm

"Russian experts who have spent five years mapping the forests say much
of what is left is in jeopardy.....researchers say what little is left
of the forests is at risk, as the parts likeliest to attract
exploitation have no protection under federal or local law."

R. Lander

Upscale wrote:

> "R. Lander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > lost to population growth in most places. They plant tree farms at
> > higher density and try to call it "more acreage."
>
> And also, what kind of acreage is it? Old growth trees of hundreds of years
> ago, certainly don't measure up to what is grown today. Same acreage maybe,
> but certainly not same quality, durability or foliage.

Very true. Here's one of many maps showing the general plight of old
growth:

http://mvh.sr.unh.edu/mvhinvestigations/old_growth_forests.htm

Many on the Right don't believe Man can impact nature unless it was
decreed in the Bible. They will always claim that down means up when a
resource is discussed; or price matters more than physical abundance.
They'll spotlight some guy planting a dozen trees in his backyard,
while a nearby subdivision flattens the last wild oaks in the county.
Of course, a few oaks will be left standing so they can give it a trite
name.

R. Lander

pipedope wrote:
> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> > On 9 Aug 2006 18:36:24 -0700, [email protected]
> > wrote:
> >
> >> pipedope wrote:
> >>> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> >>>> land now than in 1900.
> >>> But how does it compare to, say, 1400?
> >> You tell us...
> >>
> >>> On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
> >>> tree farm land.
> >>>
> >>> michael
> >> You have a problem with trees being replanted for future cuts?
> >
> > If he gets to define the terms any way he likes, he can
> > prove anything -- anything at all.
> >
> > Forests are forests, regardless of whether they are tree
> > farms or "virgin" forests.
> >
> > --
> > Robert Sturgeon
> > Summum ius summa inuria.
> > http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
>
> Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.

You know and I know that pots can't talk.

> Start with how bad I am for simply asking a question by implying that I
> am defining terms to fit my argument and the you make a strange
> definition to support your own argument.
>
> There are major differences between virgin forests and tree farms. Not
> even all virgin forests are the same.

Indeed. Pots and kettles talking to each other...

> There is lots of good science on the subject, far more than will fit
> into net news sound bites.

So cutting trees is bad, and cutting trees expressly grown to be cut is
bad, too.

It's always that way with the libs. I saw a lib movie where they sat
around a stump and wailed and cried...

>>I think a lot of people today have too much money at their disposal.
>>Before you jump on that statement, remember necessity is the mother of
>>invention. If the pipes leaked and you couldn't afford a plumber,you
>>would probably find a way to repair the leak.


A friend of mine had a drippy bathroom sink. It had been driving her nuts
for months. I suggested that she put a washrag under the drip; then you
won't hear the drip anymore. It worked and she was happy. I replaced the
washer for her a few days later. You'd think she would have tried the
washrag under the drip trick already. Women. Beautiful, sexy creatures,
but most are clueless when it comes to things mechanical. I personally
know 4 or 5 women who've burned up engines by not changing the oil, adding
the oil, or even checking their oil. As long as the car starts, they're
happy and drive it until it stops starting. Of course, some men are like
this too, and they're even more pathetic! My brother's former brother-in-
law (late 20's) burned up the engine in a 1 year old Honda Civic by not
caring about the oil. His father, even more stupid than he was, went out
and bought the dude a brand new Acura Integra! More money thna brains.

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pipedope wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > So cutting trees is bad, and cutting trees expressly grown to be cut is
> > bad, too.
>
> I never said anything like that at all.

Then it's a good that we're talking this through. You sure left me
with that impression.

> I am pointing out that when comparing things it is important to define
> the terms and understand the time frame of the comparison.

And we will find that most things aren't comparable.

> There is such a thing as sustainable forestry and logging but in the USA
> today it is really only being done by owners of small woodlots.

Hmmmm? Mead/Westvaco and Weyerhauser would wince at your suggestion.

> The reason clear cutting is popular is that it is cheap and can be done
> with much less skilled labor.

It is popular because the large timber companies wish to replant a
single desireable species that can be harvested again in a shorter
period of time.

> Selectively harvesting only the mature
> trees and removing them with minimal damage to the rest of the forest

"The rest of the forest" may not contain desireable trees.

> requires more labor and people with more education and experience.

You are only considering ONE aspect of the situation and then put a
negative spin on it, such as the timber work force being comprised of
stupid people.

> Yes, that also would mean that I would pay more for my lumber but I
> already pay top dollar for quality lumber so it really wouldn't change
> things for me so much.

Don't be so sure.

steve wrote:

>> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
>> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the la=
ck
>> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
>=20
> No, its just the workshop has changed, it can live in a computer, for=

> instance, workshops are alive and well, they are just different,
> today's workshop can involved hooking up a wireless router to a wired=

> LAN that supports Appletalk, before your time it=A0=A0was=A0thatching=
=A0a=A0roof

I'm not sure about the lack of interest. I work part time in a Woodcra=
ft
store and our classes are usually filled way before the class takes pla=
ce.=20
We give at least one class a week. The only class I can remember not b=
eing
full was one called "Wiring your workshop" and I got the feeling most p=
eople
would rather hire a professional to do that than take a chance on burni=
ng the
place down :-).

We sell one heck of a lot of books as well.

IMNSHO there seems to be no lack of interest in learning in our area.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

Gunner wrote:

> Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:
>
> Righty tighty, lefty loosey.
>

And those tire changers who don't realize that my '82 Ford PU has left hand
threads on ONE rear wheel :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

CW wrote:

> Blew your credibility with that statement. Work at a desk, don't you?
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of
>> machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is
>>
>
I wrote some software for a roll grinding machine once. I pointed out that I
thought a good machinist could do as well or better than the machine. I was
told that they knew that, but all their machinists were retiring soon and
they just couldn't find replacements that knew anything. So they imported an
expensive machine to do the job.

Note that they had to import the grinder. They also had to import the rolling
mill the rolls were for. Nobody in the US could/would build such a mill.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:32:34 +0100, Steve Taylor
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>R. Lander wrote:
>>
>>> That has nothing to do with the fact that human overpopulation is
>>> outstripping forests' ability to renew themselves.
>>
>>Except in Russia, where the growth of forests has been enormous over the
>>last few years.
>
> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> land now than in 1900.
>

There is a difference between a forest and a tree farm :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Prometheus wrote:

> I've been doing construction and steel work my whole life, and as a
> result, I'm a pretty big guy.=A0=A0When=A0it=A0comes=A0to=A0knowing=A0=
*what*=A0to=A0do
> to fix the car, there isn't a problem- but when it comes down to
> trying to fish my arm down through an engine when every availible inc=
h
> has been packed full of vacuum lines and plastic covers, the job
> becomes impossible.

Amen! I have fond memories of standing INSIDE the engine compartment t=
o work
on an old inline six cylinder. Those days are, alas, gone forever. I =
now
need to be a contortionist to work on a motorcycle.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
> land now than in 1900.

But how does it compare to, say, 1400?

On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
tree farm land.

michael

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

> Forests are forests, regardless of whether they are tree
> farms or "virgin" forests.

And a car is a car, regardless of whether it's a Yugo or a Rolls.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2006 18:36:24 -0700, [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> pipedope wrote:
>>> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>>>
>>>> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
>>>> land now than in 1900.
>>> But how does it compare to, say, 1400?
>> You tell us...
>>
>>> On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
>>> tree farm land.
>>>
>>> michael
>> You have a problem with trees being replanted for future cuts?
>
> If he gets to define the terms any way he likes, he can
> prove anything -- anything at all.
>
> Forests are forests, regardless of whether they are tree
> farms or "virgin" forests.
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.

Start with how bad I am for simply asking a question by implying that I
am defining terms to fit my argument and the you make a strange
definition to support your own argument.

There are major differences between virgin forests and tree farms. Not
even all virgin forests are the same.

There is lots of good science on the subject, far more than will fit
into net news sound bites.

[email protected] wrote:

> So cutting trees is bad, and cutting trees expressly grown to be cut is
> bad, too.

I never said anything like that at all.
I am pointing out that when comparing things it is important to define
the terms and understand the time frame of the comparison.

There is such a thing as sustainable forestry and logging but in the USA
today it is really only being done by owners of small woodlots.

The reason clear cutting is popular is that it is cheap and can be done
with much less skilled labor. Selectively harvesting only the mature
trees and removing them with minimal damage to the rest of the forest
requires more labor and people with more education and experience.
Yes, that also would mean that I would pay more for my lumber but I
already pay top dollar for quality lumber so it really wouldn't change
things for me so much.

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:51:10 GMT, Kristian Ukkonen
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Emmo wrote:
>> I would mention that those men who can do even the most basic of work,
>> whether on the home or car, are richly rewarded by all the women who love
>> being with someone who is 'handy'.
>
>It depends a lot. Many women regard those kinds of
>technical skills as "nerdy" and stay away from such
>men. Understanding how things work, and being interested
>in such things, has become a wierdness/freakyness, and
>an alarming thing for many women. Stuff like that is
>only something one does for a job, and not something to
>be interested in during free time. Really. Having a
>machine shop, or even lots of electronics/RF equipment,
>is a social suicide with women. I'm talking about the
>age group 20-35 years. The "acceptable" hobbies include
>sports and culture, but definitely not technology/science.

It is indeed social suicide with SOME women in that age range. It
largely depends on if they are rural or rural raised, versus urban
types. And if they had a handy father or brothers also adds to the mix.

Frankly..I find the Urban type of women to be shallow, superficial and
in large part...high maintainence air heads.

Ive had more phone numbers handed to me by women Ive helped out on some
fix it issue, or after having had a group conversation in a bar etc etc
where the the subject of being "handy" comes up.

Some by young ladies looking for "a guy just like Dad", others from
practical women..usually country types, to those who are clueless and
just bought a condo..<G>

On the other hand...a Pendelton button down shirt, pocket protector and
tape mended eye glasses is the kiss of death no matter who you are.
In the cities..being a country boy..boots, jeans, big buckle and cowboy
hat can be the kiss of death in some areas. Primarily those who favor
italian suits, Lexus automobiles and a brief case. Though its surprising
the numbers of ladies who find the country boy fascinating, though dont
want their friends to know <VBG>..oddly enough..in many cases, its black
ladies who take the lead in this.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> 6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
>> for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
>> least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.
>>
>
>BULL.
>New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.

$12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
whale oil in silver flasks?


Even Mobile 1 is less than $5


Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:14:11 -0500, "Ron Moore" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
>no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
>productive or creative can this person be?

Maybe they have a basement?

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:30:37 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner <[email protected]> wrote
>on Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
>>On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>>
>>>> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
>>>> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
>>>> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
>>>> the world we live in.
>>>
>>>You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a
>>>ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The
>>>inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of
>>>the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut...
>>>the experienced finger tighten,
>
> Works real well when bolting fixtures to vise, tables, etc. Where I
>work, there seems to be a tendency for people to stick the bolt in the
>hole, grab the air wrench, and just press the trigger. Which explains why
>the vise had the first 1/4 inch of threads stripped out. Do you really
>need 100 ft/pounds of torque to hold a vice jaw in place?
> And some one needs to stand over the dayshifters and beat them when
>they tighten the 10-24 screws (to hold a 3/16 plate in place while the
>peripheral pattern is milled) with the same force they normally used on
>1/2-13 bolts used to hold 50 pound blocks to the tombstone! ("I have here
>in my hand, two ball peen hammers. One is a standard 12 ounce head, the
>other a 1/2 ounce head. Which would you rather have me use when I play the
>Anvil Chorus on your knuckles?")

Sounds like they need my uncle John to give 'em hell for a while. I
still end up arguing with coworkers over the overtightening "lessons"
I got from him when I was an apprentice. There were to be absolutely
no broken bolts or stripped fasteners in his shop, and it seems he was
a bit of an oddity in that when I watch most guys work these days- but
it sure was a valuable lesson for me, especially now that I have my
own equipment to maintain.

Good lesson for life in general, too- always use the right tool and
the right amount of force to get the job done properly, and you save
yourself an asswhipping later.

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
>skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
>you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
>the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
>training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
>
>When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
>anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
>of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Kids being raised by single moms who didn't learn to work with their
hands because it wasn't a woman's place to do these things.
For awhile I owned a hardware store in Alaska. I knew absolutely
nothing about hardware when we bought it, but I eventually learned
what the stuff was called. Never did learn what to do with most of
it.
Luckily, I now have a very kind, generous gentleman friend who does a
lot of the repair stuff for me. Some I could do but have this great
fear of making whatever it is worse than when I started.

>
>Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
>is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
>today?

I doubt my son can do much in the way of working with his hands. His
girlfriend is better at car stuff than he is because she worked in the
motor pool in the Army. At one time she was probably better with guns
than he is, but he's catching up.

Sue

>
>TMT
>
>
>Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
>Writer
>Thu Aug 3
>
>The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
>a distance.
>
>He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
>no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"
>
>The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
>bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
>they often have no clue how to handle home projects.
>
>For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
>parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
>learn basic repair skills.
>
>With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
>recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
>when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
>seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.
>
>"They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
>investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
>pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
>who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
>and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
>manual."
>
>Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
>young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.
>
>Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.
>
>Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
>Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
>He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
>because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.
>
>"The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
>trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
>they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
>them.'"
>
>Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
>in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
>tackle projects on their own, often to save money.
>
>"We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
>younger set," she says.
>
>For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
>try - and sometimes fail.
>
>With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
>hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
>kitchen.
>
>In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
>forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
>sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
>head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
>for a couple of other mishaps.
>
>"The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
>the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
>job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
>financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
>up."
>
>Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
>he means.
>
>Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
>bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
>the wall.
>
>"There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
>someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.
>
>But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
>then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.
>
>Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
>for know-how.
>
>Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
>classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
>dimmer switch.
>
>"It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
>they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
>who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.
>
>Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
>- the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.
>
>Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
>HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
>Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
>astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
>among young adults.
>
>While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
>shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
>closer to home: her mom.
>
>Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
>Chicago condo.
>
>But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
>She'll leave that to a professional.
>
>"I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
>much."
>
>___
>
>On the Net:
>
>Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com
>
>Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/
>
>Lowe's clinics:
>http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actionclinicSchedProcessor

On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I think you have a good point Robert.
>
>In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
>"fragile" it becomes.

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
>> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
>> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
>> the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
>> training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
>>
>> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
>> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
>> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
>>
>> Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
>> is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
>> today?
>>
>> TMT
>
> Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
> garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
> "Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
> items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
> garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
> work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
> and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
> bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
> having some kind of work area or work shop.
>
don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.

The message <[email protected]>
from Robert Sturgeon <[email protected]> contains these words:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:31:04 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> <[email protected]> wrote:

> >Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> > > It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> > > skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> > > you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> > > the world we live in.
> ><snip>
> >
> >It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
> >specialized equipment.
> >
> >Few doctors make house calls any more.
> >
> >Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
> >most places where people live these days.
> >
> >Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
> >society keep changing.
> >
> >Think the process is called "life".

> No, it is called "post-modern" life. What happens when
> post-modern life suddenly and unexpectedly becomes
> post-post-modern life? COULD you butcher a hog, if you
> really needed to?

I could and have done many times in the past.
Whats more I can even do them anyway you want, In continental Europe,
they skin pork and are butchered along individual muscles.
In Britain we like the skin still on, and basically cut along the 4 quarters.
The pigs I kept for myself were slaughtered about 12 months old and
weighed in at about 250lb each.
Those I used to butcher as beef and bone them out as if not you'd end up
with pork chops nearly 2" thick and weighing about 40oz each!!

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

The message <[email protected]>
from "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> contains these
words:

> Retief wrote:
> > On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> COULD you butcher a hog, if you
> >>> really needed to?
> >> Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
> >> do it.
> >
> > No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
> > "grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
> > get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
> > of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.
> >
> > And everyone is happy and well fed... :)
> >
> > Retief
> How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

The message <[email protected]>
from John Husvar <[email protected]> contains these words:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mark Trudgill <[email protected]> wrote:


> > Those I used to butcher as beef and bone them out as if not you'd end up
> > with pork chops nearly 2" thick and weighing about 40oz each!!

> Ummmm.

> Pray tell: What is the downside here. :)

> John, lover of _thick_ pork chops; seared, then slow grilled.

The thing is you and I may be greedy bastards, and my do they eat well.
But the wife and kids couldn't eat one of these in a month of sundays so
you end up throwing most of it away!!

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

The message <[email protected]>
from "Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]> contains these words:

> Problem with a sow that big is they will run you down if they want.
> Mom once kicked a big sow and it charged here. Grandma had to come
> and run it off. Since the sow grew from a piglet under the slop bucket
> from Grandma.

> So don't wish for the biggest.

Pigs kept for meat were usually gelded boars.
Gilts were kept as breeding stock, except things that didn't measure up,
ie things with 8 tits and what have you.

The strain of pigs we had were very docile, until they had little uns.
The first sow we got was having a litter, and dad was in the sty helping
out, taking the young uns and placing them in a box under a heat lamp
out the way.
One of these little uns squeaked and the sow flew round and bit my dad
around the midriff and shook him around like a rag doll and my dad isn't
a small bloke!!

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

The message <[email protected]>
from "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> contains these
words:

> Mark Trudgill wrote:
> > The message <[email protected]>
> > from "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> contains these
> > words:
> >
> >> Retief wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> COULD you butcher a hog, if you
> >>>>> really needed to?
> >>>> Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
> >>>> do it.
> >>> No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
> >>> "grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
> >>> get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
> >>> of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.
> >>>
> >>> And everyone is happy and well fed... :)
> >>>
> >>> Retief
> >> How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?
> >
> > Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
> > 250lb of pork trimmings.
> >

> That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could
> butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way
> more than a clue.

> My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
> one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
> way a professional does it and one may not end up
> with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
> would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
> usually end up with bite size pieces before I
> stuff them in my mouth.

Feel free to roast mouth sized pieces.

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

The message <[email protected]>
from pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> contains these words:

> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner <[email protected]> wrote
> on Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:54:53 GMT in misc.survivalism :
> >On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:59:36 +0100, Mark Trudgill <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>The message <[email protected]>
> >>from "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> contains these
> >>words:
> >>
> >>> Retief wrote:
> >>> > On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> >>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >>> COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?
> >>> >> Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
> >>> >> do it.
> >>> >
> >>> > No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
> >>> > "grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
> >>> > get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
> >>> > of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.
> >>> >
> >>> > And everyone is happy and well fed... :)
> >>> >
> >>> > Retief
> >>> How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

> Based on a sermon title from Dad's Seminary days ("Dead Hog and no Hot
> Water...") I'd say not having enough hot water is one factor. Don't ask
> me, I just pass 'em along.

You need hot water to scrape the hair off the skin.
You basically scold a small area of skin at a time and the hair and top
layer of skin peels off.

> >>Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
> >>250lb of pork trimmings.

> If the dead pig doesn't manage to stick him in the process.

> I'm not sure of all the details, but is seems that after Udo killed the
> hog, he placed the knife in the wrong place, and the dead pork roast
> "kicked" the knife right through his foot. In one side and out the other.
> Fortunately, Germany has good health care, but Udo was rather unhappy. he
> didn't feel right laying in bed all week, but orders are orders, especially
> when delivered by Herr Doctor. (And we had a couple English Nursing
> Sisters in the group, so he was Confined to his Room for the duration.)
> >
> >Make some good hotlinks though ....

> I'll take your word for it.


> pyotr

--
Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you find
out it's a 900lb gorilla with a flashlight!!

pipedope wrote:

> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>
>> The same is true of the U.S., where we have more forested
>> land now than in 1900.
>
>
> But how does it compare to, say, 1400?
>
> On top of that how much is actual forest and how much is mono culture
> tree farm land.
>
> michael

You can go on....comparing virgin forests of 1400 to what is there today
by comparing acres in forest is apples to oranges in the worst sense.
It's like saying the city park is a "forest" because there are trees in it.

You have to compare board feet of harvestable timber as well as issues
such as forest diversity and health, watershed necessities (can't cut it
if your towns water is collected there) and whether that harvestable
timber has any reasonable value (Lots of maple in Washington but mostly
only good for fire wood), "green" load..as in how much a tree type
contributes to air cleaning and oxygen production (a cactus is
considered a tree but has a low green load), etc... The issue is far
more complex than a right-wing radio sound bite.

The US Forest Service, by the way, had it's ass kicked a few years back
for calling large tracts of land above the timberline in elevation as
harvestable forest lands. Games people play.

Koz

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:51:48 -0400, John <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
>> one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
>> way a professional does it and one may not end up
>> with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
>> would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
>> usually end up with bite size pieces before I
>> stuff them in my mouth.
>
>If you puncture the intestine you contaminate the meat and have a bunch
>of scrap. Pig shit must taste as bad as it smells. It will poison you
>too.
>
>
>John

Only if you dont follow proper procedures and wash out the body cavity
after dropping the guts. Use a garden hose, then follow up with a gallon
of vinegar. Works great on deer too.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Im a CNC machine tool repair guy. I front for a couple manufactures, do
> repair of their machines, do infrastructure repair (air/electical etc
> etc) and there are two types of "machinist".
>
> 1. Actually involved in setting up and performing operations, able to do
> design and determine if the machine is optimal etc etc
>
> 2. Button pushers. Somone who loads parts, pushes a button, takes
> measurements, maybe changes offsets, but basically a human parts loader.
>
> #1 is very very hard to find
> #2 is very very easy to find, and in Southern California..is nearly 50%
> female, with many learning to be rated in Catagory #1

I'd sure like to have a 1 but if yoiu can find a couple of 2's that want to
move north (Seattle area), send them my way.
We have manual machines too. People qualified to do anything with them is
becoming near non existent. I've been told I'm old school. Guess I am but,
to me, 2 is not a machinist. They're a machine operator. A machinist, the
way it used to be, is a machine maker. The tools he uses (mills, lathes,
grinders, ect) are incidental to the job, they aren't THE job.

Gunner wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:56:49 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
> >garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every "Man
> >of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build items
> >from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every garage in
> >the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a work shop,
> >storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms and a maid's
> >quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2 bedroom 1 bath
> >house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not having some kind
> >of work area or work shop.
>
> And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
> garage door open for more than 30 minutes.
>
> A house in most new developments is no longer a home..but a place to
> sleep, and park your fat ass in front of the TV
>
> Gunner
>

Anyone that likes to live in a controlled enviorment gets what they
deserve.

You have to get approval to do just about anything around your house.
You even need a fart licence or they lock you up.

John

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>
> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:34:47 -0400, LiRM <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> >>skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> >>you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> >>the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> >>training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >>
> >>When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> >>anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> >>of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >>
> >>Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> >>is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> >>today?
> >>
> >>TMT
> >
> >I grew up around an uncle who literally rebuilt his entire house.
>
> My father literally built his house -- cement work,
> plumbing, framing, siding, wiring, roofing, everything. I
> am somewhat embarrassed that I will probably hire my roof
> replaced. It comes down to 2 factors: he HAD to (no money);
> and I don't want to. I'm sure I could redo the roof if I
> really needed to. I used to do stuff like that all the
> time. Now I'm lazy (and old) -- and I want it done right,
> not cheaply.
>
> (rest snipped)
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Summum ius summa inuria.
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

In many cases those factors are changing. You may have the money to hire
someone, but it is becoming increasingly difficult in some areas to find
someone to hire who will actually do the job correctly. In more and more
cases I'm finding I have to do a job myself to get it done right.

In once case I had an auto repair done several times by several
different dealers (some under warranty) that all failed again in short
order. I finally got fed up and did the job myself, found evidence of
how incompetent they were while tearing into it myself and have not had
a recurrence of the problem since I fixed it correctly myself.

Pete C.

Ace wrote:
>
> Guess it would be nice to see their basements, or even a workshop ????


Workshop? I already have three, and it's taking over the house, too.
;-)

Sure, I've had to make some adjustments now that I'm disabled, but i
still spend what time I can in the shops. Some modifications help, like
the foot switches on the drill press, and some other tools. Since I can
no longer do the micro electronics I did for a living I am concentrating
un finishing my main shop, and my non profit efforts to collect and
refurbish computers for other disabled Veterans in my area. A basic
computer system is given free to Veterans in need, and the only cost
incurred is if they want something we have to purchase wholesale. The
work is done by me, and a couple part time volunteers. I also have a
lot of older PC parts, from the original PC on up. If anyone needs
older parts, let me know. Most of the stuff can be had for the cost of
shipping, and a little, for what i paid for it, plus shipping. I have
piles of good XT, 286, 386, 486 and early Pentium motherboards that are
not usable for the computer project, but I don't want to toss them.
Plenty of video cards, I/O cards and other odds and ends, including
early SIMM and DIMM memory are floating around on the different
motherboards. XT and AT powers supplies, if you need them, along with
mini tower type supplies. I will use some of it for my projects, but I
can't use it all.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Bonehenge wrote:
>
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:14:11 -0500, "Ron Moore" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
> >no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
> >productive or creative can this person be?
>
> Maybe they have a basement?


Not very common in Florida, unless you build it above ground, then
bring in lots of truckloads of dirt to make it look like its sitting on
a small hill.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

digitalmaster wrote:
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> >> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> >> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> >> the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> >> training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> >>
> >> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> >> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> >> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> >>
> >> Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> >> is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> >> today?
> >>
> >> TMT
> >
> > Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
> > garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
> > "Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
> > items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
> > garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
> > work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
> > and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
> > bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
> > having some kind of work area or work shop.
> >
> don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
> sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
> them.

When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a
realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a
workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two
feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I
went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of
everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if
he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have
the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just
what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted
a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot
house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
library.

All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
>
> digitalmaster wrote:
> >
> > "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >> It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
> > >> skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
> > >> you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
> > >> the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
> > >> training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.
> > >>
> > >> When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
> > >> anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
> > >> of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
> > >>
> > >> Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
> > >> is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
> > >> today?
> > >>
> > >> TMT
> > >
> > > Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
> > > garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
> > > "Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
> > > items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
> > > garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
> > > work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
> > > and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
> > > bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
> > > having some kind of work area or work shop.
> > >
> > don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
> > sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
> > them.
>
> When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a
> realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a
> workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two
> feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I
> went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of
> everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if
> he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have
> the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just
> what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted
> a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot
> house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
> it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
> a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
> 12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
> cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
> library.
>
> All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)
>
> --
> Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
> prove it.
> Member of DAV #85.
>
> Michael A. Terrell
> Central Florida

A friend of mine found a nice place with a work shop.... An old chicken
farm. 5 buildings 60 feet wide by 150 feet long with good roofs, and
construction, with a nice house. Total cost was 200K. Oh I forgot, 14
acres of land too. This was in lower NY state.

John

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:
>
> Mark Trudgill wrote:
> > The message <[email protected]>
> > from "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> contains these
> > words:
> >
> >> Retief wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> COULD you butcher a hog, if you
> >>>>> really needed to?
> >>>> Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
> >>>> do it.
> >>> No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
> >>> "grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
> >>> get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
> >>> of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.
> >>>
> >>> And everyone is happy and well fed... :)
> >>>
> >>> Retief
> >> How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?
> >
> > Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
> > 250lb of pork trimmings.
> >
>
> That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could
> butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way
> more than a clue.
>
> My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
> one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
> way a professional does it and one may not end up
> with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
> would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
> usually end up with bite size pieces before I
> stuff them in my mouth.

If you puncture the intestine you contaminate the meat and have a bunch
of scrap. Pig shit must taste as bad as it smells. It will poison you
too.


John

carl mciver wrote:
>
> In the Seattle area, the aerospace community has been complaining for
> several years about just that, and it isn't until the concrete heads in the
> legislature realized they were chasing all the skilled labor and shops out
> of state have they realized what a skill shortage there is. A day late and
> a dollar short, but better late than never. Unfortunately, when I hired on
> at Boeing, with a million others barely able to breathe, they trained me on
> company time. Got a whole lot of useless folks in the process. This time,
> they're training the new hires on their time, for two weeks. A coworker of
> mine got hit in the head by a fast moving rivet die. Seems the gal she was
> teaching thought it was okay to put the die in the gun while holding the
> trigger down. Absent the retainer spring, of course. As soon as she did it
> the second time, just minutes later, they told her to take a hike. That's
> why they're doing it differently this time around, as the dead wood gets
> weeded out quickly. They aren't kicking people out for not having the
> skills, they're removing them for not having a trainable attitude.
>
> I recently got a very cool new job. One of the reasons I got the job
> was the last line on my resume: "With the right attitude all skill deficits
> can be overcome." That impresses the hell out of folks, especially when
> your attitude seems to match the resume. (I once had the honor of bringing
> onto my crew an older Greek lady who had no skills but just the exact
> attitude I wanted. She worked her ass off and made the folks who had been
> around for years look like amateurs once I taught her what she needed to
> know.) I had also showed them pictures of some machines I had recently
> built, which the interviewers (a structured interview with several folks
> there) were almost fighting over. They wanted someone who could "do things"
> instead of just talking about stuff. My fingernails being a bit chewed up
> and slightly dirty helped a bit, I suspect.


My last job was at Microdyne which built telemetry equipment for the
aerospace industry. I was hired as a test technician on the module
line. I was told I only had six weeks to prove that I could do at least
80% of the average work done by everyone else on the line, and that I
would work with another tech as a trainer for the full six weeks. I
started on a Wednesday morning. By the Friday afternoon of that week my
training was terminated and I was assigned a test stamp. The following
Monday afternoon a "Committee" showed up at my bench to "Order" me to
slow down, that i was already producing more work than anyone else in
the department, and "You will slow down, if you know what was good for
you." I smiled and thanked them, then told them that if they didn't
want to look bad, they had three choices:

1: Learn to work faster.
2: Learn to work smarter.
or
3: Get out of my way because I was hired to do a job, not to win a
popularity contest. Then I offered to teach them to be better techs and
they laughed at me. One asked "How can you teach us anything?" I
shrugged and said, I don't know, but if I can do the job better and
faster after just three days, you might be surprised. ;-)

They informed me that I was rude, arrogant, and opinionated. Within
a couple weeks they started to ask questions. I answered, and got
stupid looks, but they did what I suggested, and they came back with big
smiles to tell ne it solved the problem. They didn't know that most of
my electronics work had been mission critical jobs, ad you didn't have
time to waste, so you studied the manuals and schematics ahead of time
so you knew how it worked.

They finally realized I wasn't bragging about my skills, that I had
worked very hard to develop them, and that I willing shared them with
anyone willing to learn.

I was there a little over four years, and ended up working with
almost every part of the company because of my, "It will be done. Done
Right. Done on time. Done on budget." attitude. On day my boss
commented, "You just won't take NO for an answer." I smiled and said,
"You're right, and I won't take YES, if I don't believe them."

Management kept coming around with new "Quality Statements" we were
supposed to memorize. I shoved the printout back into the HR manager's
hands and told him I wouldn't lower my standards for anyone. He turned
red and asked, "Well, What is your standard?" I grinned and told him
that "I do the best possible job with the tools and materials available,
and strive to do even better." His jaw dropped, and he walked away
muttering under his breath. ;-)

I was a volunteer advisor for the electronics program at the Lake
County Votech, until they decided to shut the course down and replace it
with a computer repair course. The "Instructor" was the school system's
IT director, and he was teaching with bad materials from the XT days.
No one had made the boards he was teaching about for over 10 years, and
he was having to read it from a ratty old library book, because he
didn't know what he was doing. All he knew was how to admin a small
Novel network.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida