I use HVLP on a turbine. We have a very small shop so I either have to
spray outside or build a temporary booth inside.
I would like to hear what different people do to protect themselves why
spraying finishes (I guess also working with dyes, etc.).
What equipment are you using to safegaurd your health?
I only use lacquer and shellac (I wouldn't spray if I need to apply a
varnish/poly), so I am not spraying some of really bad stuff soem are using.
--
Michael Joel
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols
Very good write up. I would like to add to this.
The pressure respirators usually have a carbon filter and the pump sits
in a different locale than the sprayer.
But you are also interested in protecting other people.
A separate room is the best way. Spray booths that pull the over spray
to them, and have 3 sets of filters are best. A coarse filter that is
cheaply replaceable, a finer filter that is next in line to catch finer
particles missed by the coarse filter, a lot more expensive to replace.
And thirdly an output filter, that is usually carbon treated. If you
spray in a booth like this you will prevent others from being harmed.
Check out grizzly and others. I built my own spray booth using squirrel
cage blowers (heating units), and filters. I use 2 on the input side and
non on the output side. It really helps, but like Mike, I also have a
high end air pack. I got it from the days of spraying imron and
lacquers... IMRON is bullet proof stuff (relatively) , but its the
attack to the liver that will kill you... each time you whiff it, it
builds up in your liver until you die.
On 2/28/2012 11:06 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Michael Joel wrote:
>> I use HVLP on a turbine. We have a very small shop so I either have to
>> spray outside or build a temporary booth inside.
>>
>> I would like to hear what different people do to protect themselves
>> why spraying finishes (I guess also working with dyes, etc.).
>> What equipment are you using to safegaurd your health?
>>
>> I only use lacquer and shellac (I wouldn't spray if I need to apply a
>> varnish/poly), so I am not spraying some of really bad stuff soem are
>> using.
>
> Well Mike - I shoot stuff that is a lot more toxic than what you're
> shooting, so my precautions are more elaborate than you would need. But...
> I shoot with full positive pressure breathing protection. I have a full
> face system that lets me wear my glasses with no problem, and gives me a
> (near) complete field of vision. Expect to pay in the neighborhood of $400
> just for the head-gear for this kind of setup. I trail an airhose from my
> belt that connects to a clean air supply that provides the positive pressure
> to me. It's nice because I don't have to worry about mask seals, and all
> that crap. But remember - I shoot nasty stuff - isocyanates.
>
> Be very careful in conventional wisdom that's out there. As I have told
> others - read Robert's writings on typical compounds found in today's
> finishes. Those that we assume are benign are really not so benign. Every
> day we discover more and more about the harmful effects of things that we
> thought were safe. The one phrase you do not want to enter your vocabulary
> when it comes to applying finishes is... "I just apply...".
>
> Since I have this gear - I use it. If I'm shooting anything that is
> atomized, I put on my positive pressure gear. Though some stuff may not be
> as harmful chemically, there is still the matter of breathing this atomized
> stuff in. In your case - lacquer should not be treated lightly. It is not
> a benign chemical compound.
>
> Many people - and I have as well, use half masks. They work to a point.
> The basic rule of thumb that I recommend is that if you can smell the stuff
> you are spraying, you have already started some level of damage within
> yourself - you do not have the protection you thought you did with that
> mask. If you can see color streaks under your nostrils after spraying, you
> screwed up. If you have a beard, you most likely cannot achieve a good
> seal. If your half mask is not "fitted" to your face - you likely will not
> have a good seal. If you don't have a good seal, then the filters on your
> mask are mere decoration.
>
> Place no confidence in the junk masks sold at HD, Lowes, etc. Fine for
> dust, but even though they say they are rated for painting, you cannot
> believe that. The filters may indeed be sufficient for some chemicals, but
> it's not all about the filters. The seal is more important.
>
> I have a couple of full face masks laying around (3M and MSA) that go for a
> couple hundred bucks each. I like them, but I don't use them because they
> don't accommodate glasses unless you purchase the kit for glasses, and then
> get a set of lenses ground to fit the kit. They are professional masks, and
> are of the highest quality, but... go look at one. Read the spec sheet.
> Individual fitting is mandated for this type of mask if one is shooting
> nasty stuff. Wonder why that is, and yet big box stores sell a fits-all
> product?
>
> So - off my soap box now. Fits-all masks are fine for certain things, but
> when it comes to spray painting, you have to be more careful. 3M does sell
> a disposable respirator that is good for about 18 hours of use. Costs about
> $30. Works well for things except for isocyanates - if you can get a
> perfect seal. The key to any filter mask is to keep it stored in an air
> tight container when not in use, as the filters degrade with exposure to
> air.
>
> DAGS a bit - it will be worth learning about filtration, masks, etc.
>
> Hope this was more than just a diatribe...
>
I'm not commercial, just hobby type spraying and I spray, maybe, once
a month. I seldom spray inside. I can afford to wait until outside
conditions are right for the task. I spray down wind or set up an
attic fan to draw overspray/fumes away from myself. I don't set up a
booth for outside spraying, but I make sure I am not in direct
sunlight.
When I have extra large and/or multiple pieces to spray, I often go to
a friend's commercial shop, which has an attic fan set up in his
dedicated spraying area. The fan creates a draft for drawing
overspray/fumes away from the work and out the "window". I suppose
this is a standard scenario for commercial guys.
I would think spraying lacquer is nearly as bad as any finish. I
spray mostly lacquer. I wear goggles or a shield and a good mask,
with pretty good filtering. Right off, I don't know the type/name of
the mask I use, but it has a filter on each side of the strapped-on
mask. My brother gave this mask to me. It is the type used at his
workplace, *Northrop Gruman, Lake Charles, La. *I trust this is a
credible reference, as my brother is a supervisor with 30+ yrs
experience and I never felt the need to question the mask. My spray
area is not near anything that would be affected by any overspray or
downwind concerns, so the finish having dyes, additives (?), etc. is
not a concern.
Before spraying the project, I practice spraying on the "scrap"
temporary back doors of the (incompleted) shop garage, to get my
pattern, etc. adjusted correctly. When finished with the project
spraying, I use the back doors for spraying the cleaning thinner
through the gun, rather than spraying somewhere else (?).... spraying
into the environment (polluting the environment).
Sonny
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:20:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Michael Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of fans (or venting) I had a thought for making an
>>> "explosion proof" fan - input/opinions wanted:
>>>
>>> I *assume* there are two things a fan must be able to do to be
>>> explosion proof. 1) solvent fumes must not reach sparks in motor AND
>>> 2) fan malfunctions must not pass a spark into the room with solvent
>>> fumes.
>>
>> Don't waste your time. You won't create a dense enough environment
>> with your spray equipment for you to ever experience an explosion
>> risk.
>
> _You_ hope.
Nope.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/28/2012 5:21 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:20:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Michael Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of fans (or venting) I had a thought for making an "explosion
>>> proof" fan - input/opinions wanted:
>>>
>>> I *assume* there are two things a fan must be able to do to be
>>> explosion proof. 1) solvent fumes must not reach sparks in motor AND
>>> 2) fan malfunctions must not pass a spark into the room with solvent
>>> fumes.
>>
>> Don't waste your time. You won't create a dense enough environment with
>> your spray equipment for you to ever experience an explosion risk.
>
> _You_ hope.
>
> --
> ...in order that a man may be happy, it is
> necessary that he should not only be capable
> of his work, but a good judge of his work.
> -- John Ruskin
An ignitable mixture needs 15 to 16 parts air to 1 part fuel.
Just like in your car.
It doesn't matter what the fuel is - gasoline, grain dust, anything.
I think you would notice not being able to breath long before the
air was fuel rich enough to ignite...
On 2/28/2012 11:47 AM, Sonny wrote:
> I'm not commercial, just hobby type spraying and I spray, maybe, once
> a month. I seldom spray inside. I can afford to wait until outside
> conditions are right for the task. I spray down wind or set up an
> attic fan to draw overspray/fumes away from myself. I don't set up a
> booth for outside spraying, but I make sure I am not in direct
> sunlight.
>
> When I have extra large and/or multiple pieces to spray, I often go to
> a friend's commercial shop, which has an attic fan set up in his
> dedicated spraying area. The fan creates a draft for drawing
> overspray/fumes away from the work and out the "window". I suppose
> this is a standard scenario for commercial guys.
Far from it. This is illegal in most areas. Filtering the air is
required. Also most use side draft, or down draft spray booths, not
updraft. The idea is to get the most spray on the object to be sprayed,
not pull it up into the air.
>
> I would think spraying lacquer is nearly as bad as any finish. I
> spray mostly lacquer. I wear goggles or a shield and a good mask,
> with pretty good filtering. Right off, I don't know the type/name of
> the mask I use, but it has a filter on each side of the strapped-on
> mask. My brother gave this mask to me. It is the type used at his
> workplace, *Northrop Gruman, Lake Charles, La. *I trust this is a
> credible reference, as my brother is a supervisor with 30+ yrs
> experience and I never felt the need to question the mask. My spray
> area is not near anything that would be affected by any overspray or
> downwind concerns, so the finish having dyes, additives (?), etc. is
> not a concern.
>
> Before spraying the project, I practice spraying on the "scrap"
> temporary back doors of the (incompleted) shop garage, to get my
> pattern, etc. adjusted correctly. When finished with the project
> spraying, I use the back doors for spraying the cleaning thinner
> through the gun, rather than spraying somewhere else (?).... spraying
> into the environment (polluting the environment).
>
> Sonny
Michael Joel wrote:
> I use HVLP on a turbine. We have a very small shop so I either have to
> spray outside or build a temporary booth inside.
>
> I would like to hear what different people do to protect themselves
> why spraying finishes (I guess also working with dyes, etc.).
> What equipment are you using to safegaurd your health?
>
> I only use lacquer and shellac (I wouldn't spray if I need to apply a
> varnish/poly), so I am not spraying some of really bad stuff soem are
> using.
Well Mike - I shoot stuff that is a lot more toxic than what you're
shooting, so my precautions are more elaborate than you would need. But...
I shoot with full positive pressure breathing protection. I have a full
face system that lets me wear my glasses with no problem, and gives me a
(near) complete field of vision. Expect to pay in the neighborhood of $400
just for the head-gear for this kind of setup. I trail an airhose from my
belt that connects to a clean air supply that provides the positive pressure
to me. It's nice because I don't have to worry about mask seals, and all
that crap. But remember - I shoot nasty stuff - isocyanates.
Be very careful in conventional wisdom that's out there. As I have told
others - read Robert's writings on typical compounds found in today's
finishes. Those that we assume are benign are really not so benign. Every
day we discover more and more about the harmful effects of things that we
thought were safe. The one phrase you do not want to enter your vocabulary
when it comes to applying finishes is... "I just apply...".
Since I have this gear - I use it. If I'm shooting anything that is
atomized, I put on my positive pressure gear. Though some stuff may not be
as harmful chemically, there is still the matter of breathing this atomized
stuff in. In your case - lacquer should not be treated lightly. It is not
a benign chemical compound.
Many people - and I have as well, use half masks. They work to a point.
The basic rule of thumb that I recommend is that if you can smell the stuff
you are spraying, you have already started some level of damage within
yourself - you do not have the protection you thought you did with that
mask. If you can see color streaks under your nostrils after spraying, you
screwed up. If you have a beard, you most likely cannot achieve a good
seal. If your half mask is not "fitted" to your face - you likely will not
have a good seal. If you don't have a good seal, then the filters on your
mask are mere decoration.
Place no confidence in the junk masks sold at HD, Lowes, etc. Fine for
dust, but even though they say they are rated for painting, you cannot
believe that. The filters may indeed be sufficient for some chemicals, but
it's not all about the filters. The seal is more important.
I have a couple of full face masks laying around (3M and MSA) that go for a
couple hundred bucks each. I like them, but I don't use them because they
don't accommodate glasses unless you purchase the kit for glasses, and then
get a set of lenses ground to fit the kit. They are professional masks, and
are of the highest quality, but... go look at one. Read the spec sheet.
Individual fitting is mandated for this type of mask if one is shooting
nasty stuff. Wonder why that is, and yet big box stores sell a fits-all
product?
So - off my soap box now. Fits-all masks are fine for certain things, but
when it comes to spray painting, you have to be more careful. 3M does sell
a disposable respirator that is good for about 18 hours of use. Costs about
$30. Works well for things except for isocyanates - if you can get a
perfect seal. The key to any filter mask is to keep it stored in an air
tight container when not in use, as the filters degrade with exposure to
air.
DAGS a bit - it will be worth learning about filtration, masks, etc.
Hope this was more than just a diatribe...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Michael Joel wrote:
> Speaking of fans (or venting) I had a thought for making an "explosion
> proof" fan - input/opinions wanted:
>
> I *assume* there are two things a fan must be able to do to be
> explosion proof. 1) solvent fumes must not reach sparks in motor AND
> 2) fan malfunctions must not pass a spark into the room with solvent
> fumes.
Don't waste your time. You won't create a dense enough environment with
your spray equipment for you to ever experience an explosion risk.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:20:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Michael Joel wrote:
>
>> Speaking of fans (or venting) I had a thought for making an "explosion
>> proof" fan - input/opinions wanted:
>>
>> I *assume* there are two things a fan must be able to do to be
>> explosion proof. 1) solvent fumes must not reach sparks in motor AND
>> 2) fan malfunctions must not pass a spark into the room with solvent
>> fumes.
>
>Don't waste your time. You won't create a dense enough environment with
>your spray equipment for you to ever experience an explosion risk.
_You_ hope.
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
>
> Far from it. This is illegal in most areas. Filtering the air is
> required. =A0Also most use side draft, or down draft spray booths, not
> updraft. The idea is to get the most spray on the object to be sprayed,
> not pull it up into the air.
>
I can only assume you are referring to my small spraying jobs, at
home, and not with reference to my friend's shop. I didn't say his
booth was not filtered, nor did I say the drafting pulls his spray up
and away from the piece being sprayed. His shop is "set up" similarly
to what you have described you have done in your shop, which I assume
is a standard scenario for commercial shops.
Despite our misunderstanding, I did learn something from this thread,
that I didn't know or wasn't fully aware of, and that's always a plus.
Sonny
Sorry Sonny, I assumed that was what you were saying about your friends
shop, and it didn't seem right.
My bad.
On 2/28/2012 2:39 PM, Sonny wrote:
>>
>> Far from it. This is illegal in most areas. Filtering the air is
>> required. Also most use side draft, or down draft spray booths, not
>> updraft. The idea is to get the most spray on the object to be sprayed,
>> not pull it up into the air.
>>
>
> I can only assume you are referring to my small spraying jobs, at
> home, and not with reference to my friend's shop. I didn't say his
> booth was not filtered, nor did I say the drafting pulls his spray up
> and away from the piece being sprayed. His shop is "set up" similarly
> to what you have described you have done in your shop, which I assume
> is a standard scenario for commercial shops.
>
> Despite our misunderstanding, I did learn something from this thread,
> that I didn't know or wasn't fully aware of, and that's always a plus.
>
> Sonny
tiredofspam wrote:
>
>
> On 2/28/2012 11:47 AM, Sonny wrote:
>
>> I'm not commercial, just hobby type spraying and I spray, maybe, once
>> a month. I seldom spray inside. I can afford to wait until outside
>> conditions are right for the task. I spray down wind or set up an
>> attic fan to draw overspray/fumes away from myself. I don't set up a
>> booth for outside spraying, but I make sure I am not in direct
>> sunlight.
>>
>> When I have extra large and/or multiple pieces to spray, I often go to
>> a friend's commercial shop, which has an attic fan set up in his
>> dedicated spraying area. The fan creates a draft for drawing
>> overspray/fumes away from the work and out the "window". I suppose
>> this is a standard scenario for commercial guys.
>
>
> Far from it. This is illegal in most areas. Filtering the air is
> required. Also most use side draft, or down draft spray booths, not
> updraft. The idea is to get the most spray on the object to be sprayed,
> not pull it up into the air.
>
>
>>
>> I would think spraying lacquer is nearly as bad as any finish. I
>> spray mostly lacquer. I wear goggles or a shield and a good mask,
>> with pretty good filtering. Right off, I don't know the type/name of
>> the mask I use, but it has a filter on each side of the strapped-on
>> mask. My brother gave this mask to me. It is the type used at his
>> workplace, *Northrop Gruman, Lake Charles, La. *I trust this is a
>> credible reference, as my brother is a supervisor with 30+ yrs
>> experience and I never felt the need to question the mask. My spray
>> area is not near anything that would be affected by any overspray or
>> downwind concerns, so the finish having dyes, additives (?), etc. is
>> not a concern.
>>
>> Before spraying the project, I practice spraying on the "scrap"
>> temporary back doors of the (incompleted) shop garage, to get my
>> pattern, etc. adjusted correctly. When finished with the project
>> spraying, I use the back doors for spraying the cleaning thinner
>> through the gun, rather than spraying somewhere else (?).... spraying
>> into the environment (polluting the environment).
>>
>> Sonny
Speaking of fans (or venting) I had a thought for making an "explosion
proof" fan - input/opinions wanted:
I *assume* there are two things a fan must be able to do to be explosion
proof. 1) solvent fumes must not reach sparks in motor AND 2) fan
malfunctions must not pass a spark into the room with solvent fumes.
Making a fan "explosion proof":
Make a tube same diameter as the fan to be used. Fan is attached to one
side blowing in and sealed so air may only pass into tube. Inside tube
the air passes through metal window screening to stop any larger debris
or sparks. From there the are passes through a common furnace filter.
The other end of the tube is connected to some flexible venting tubing
which is directed into a port into the booth. Outflow can be filtered as
described by others.
The intake is not within the booth so fresh air is incoming (even heated
air from a separate room in the shop sealed from fumes). The "filters"
would exclude the possibility of sparks reaching the booth.
So opinions?
--
Michael Joel
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols