Any Saw Stop Owners

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
> to?
> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
> a
> two week period
> Joe

Not doubting that you are having problems with the cartridge misfiring but
how does it not hit the blade? I would think that there is something else
badly wrong if the cartridge fires but does not touch the blade.
OR are you saying that there was no contact with the blade to cause a
misfire.

I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the ones
that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
basis.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
> > somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like that.
>
> You're scary!

Think so? Maybe you're just lucky or extra careful or maybe I'm unlucky and
careless. I've always considered a small amount of pain as just part of the
process. Be it a splinter or sore muscles from hand sanding something or
getting a blister on my hand from twisting a screwdriver or whatever. I'd
guess it also depends on what kind of woodworking one is doing too. Of the
woodworking I do, cabinet making using a veneered plywood is my favourite
and that automatically means a few splinters somewhere in the process.

"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> arw01 wrote:

<snip>

> I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
> the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
> said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.
>
> Chris

Hi Chris -

I can't put my finger on it... but I'm pretty sure there's been a contact
"incident" in the installed base of saws already....and it functioned
properly.

We will take (or have taken ) delivery of our first Sawstop saw.... we will
eventually (as soon as we can get 'em) replace every table/cabinet saw we
have.... something like 13-15 saws...

From an employer's perspective - there's virtually no choice but to adopt
the most stringent safety standards as soon as practical. With an
organisation our size.... the incidence of certain types of injuries
approaches a certainty.... what's 1 in 2000 odds for the average joe is 1 in
2 odds for us....or better!

If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury already....
and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....

Cheers -

Rob

Bad ground would be my guess, followed by defective sine generator or
defective AD on the other end.

Sawstop should ship you a new saw and have that one picked up for
forensics..

Got any photos of the gore?

Alan

I've had this happen with one of my SawStops. It misfired twice in a
week period. SawStop sent me free replacement cartridges and some
filters to put around one of the control cables in the saw. With the
filters in place I have not had a misfire since (4 months).

-- Craig

I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.

With all due respect. 99.9999% quality says that out of one million
tries, you get 1 catastrophic (on the order of a sawstop misfire)
failure, not one in ten-thousand as you state. Right now, I NEVER,
EVER expect my current tablesaw to suddenly stop and mangle it's own
blade and be generally unavailable for an uncertain amount of time.
With the current SAWSTOP I am certain the chances are much better than
1 in a million of a misfire.

I consider myself a modestly careful woodworker. If I get that funny
feeling in my gut. I will stop and take an extra couple of hours to
make a jig for safety sake. I value my digits more than my time,
because my real job requires them, and I don't have Lloyds insurance to
feed my family if I can't work.

What I am saying is that I am willing to go from NEVER EVER, to perhaps
1 chance in a million of having a mangled blade. That is all
contingent that this thing truely does what it implies it will do. I
don't think it has been tested on live fingers, in every possible
working condition (only on chickens and hotdogs). It's certainly not as
hard as testing nukes, but it's another one of those inventions you
can't really truely 'test' in the lab (at least without human rights
issues).

I also question the ethics of an inventer who goes from: "this
technology will save your fingers", to: "the goverment needs to mandate
this because I say it's safe".

What is the latest from joe, his followup is missing here..

Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?

Matt Stachoni wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:05:44 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I wouldn't have the courage to move
> >my finger into the blade fast enough to be capable of taking it off, but I'd
> >be willing do it slowly with the possibility of nicking the finger
>
> I would think that anyone with the smarts to invent the SawStop is
> also smart enough not to touch the SHARP, POINTY part of the spinning
> blade, but the smooth side, which will probably not result in a cut
> (maybe a slight friction burn) but give the same desired result.

I'd like to see someone push their hand into it in a manner simulating
a "worst case scenario". How do we *know* it will work with an actual
hand?

JP

There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a
scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing
where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll
bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time.
I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each
time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use
the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc..
How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are
standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
this does better be completely tested.

Great to hear.. The saw stops just paid for all the eaten blades and
trouble to get some filters for one problematic operator!

In my home State of Washington, the Labor and Industries costs of an
accident are marked up 35% from what all the costs are, then added to
the experience pool of the employeer. If they are lucky the don't go
into the next tier, but generally they do after an accident requiring
micro-surgeries.

Washington collects EVERY PENNY from you +, their L&I makes money in
this State.

Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
new markets of users:

1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
case of a mistep.
2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
still throw wood back at them).
3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)

Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
portion of what I would consider the long term target market.

Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
novelty.

Joe wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
> to?
> > > I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
> Stop
> > > replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
> in a
> > > two week period
> > > Joe
> >
> > Are you in the process of making a cut when this happens?
>
> Yes, only when cutting small parts like stair returns which we use a push
> block to cut. But I have now learned that out of the ten people or so that
> use this saw during the day it has always misfired on the same person, so it
> sounds like the digital watch problem. I will be calling Saw Stop as soon as
> the wake up this morning (west coast)

Maybe the bloat is drooling all over your equipment!

Upscale wrote:
> "Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
> > want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
> > helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
> > can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
> > certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.
>
> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069

Leon wrote:

> Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
> watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
> else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend?

I personally know someone who can't wear a digital watch. Starts losing
time when she puts it on.

Chris

Upscale wrote:

> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

Bookshelves, tables, desks...oh wait, did you mean they should have
moving parts?

Chris

Robin Lee wrote:

> We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Rob,

Does this mean that Lee Valley might start dealing with SawStop-specific
accessories such as zero-clearance inserts, sliding tables, etc.?

I hope, I hope.

Larry

Larry Spitz wrote:
=
> Does this mean that Lee Valley might start dealing with SawStop-specific
> accessories such as zero-clearance inserts, sliding tables, etc.?

The local store has an Excalibur table mounted to their SawStop. Works
fine and isn't saw-specific.

Chris

In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Some people are just slow to change. Owners, those with actual hands on
>experience with the machine seem to be pleased with their purchases.

Oh, yeah, the guy with three misfires (in as many weeks?) is real pleased with
his purchase, I'm sure. Uh-huh. Riiiiiiiight.

Like I said: you're so wrapped up in this idea that you can't bring yourself
to see or hear any of the problems with it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

hmm....sounds more like a "painless" solution to me...unless you count the
pain in making all those former table saw cuts by hand...

John E.

"Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Now Doug,
>
> It is so unlike you to point out the painfully obvious solution.....;-)
>
> Bob S,
>
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Frank
> > Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>At least you will keep all of your fingers if you are never able to use
> >>the
> >>saw!
> >
> > True... but the same objective can be achieved at a much lower cost by
> > simply
> > unplugging the saw. :-)
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
> >
> > It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:56:28 -0500, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>From an employer's perspective - there's virtually no choice but to adopt
>the most stringent safety standards as soon as practical. With an
>organisation our size.... the incidence of certain types of injuries
>approaches a certainty.... what's 1 in 2000 odds for the average joe is 1 in
>2 odds for us....or better!
>
>If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury already....
>and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....

Plus, I imagine that your insurers who write your policies are going
to be thrilled as well :)

Matt

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:34:07 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:OX%[email protected]...
>> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>> expensive.
>>
>> Bob S.
>
>
>No kidding and hopefully Joe is correct in his observation of the misfire.
>Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
>watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
>else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend?

Pretty much an urban legend, but tempered with enough facts to make
analysis tricky. In nearly every case I have seen, the watch was out
of adjustment, so it runs OK at ambient temp, but runs fast or slow
when on a wrist with a higher temp. Or, the battery had been
"replaced" in a not-so-tradesmanlike manner, or the wearer/owner was
incredibly rough on watches (and just about everthing else for that
mattter)


> Anyway I wonder if it is >possible for some one to carry enough static electricity that he may set the
>cartridge off by discharge?

Quite possible, BUT protection against electrostatic events is
relatively easy to design in, and, it MUST be extensively tested to
demonstrate it's immmunity. To not do these things would be stupid and
just asking for it. The same applies for immunity from RF fields, such
as nearby cellphones, 2 way radios, arc welders,etc. Given that it's
going into an uncontrolled industrial environment, it's reasonable to
expect a high degree of immunity designed in, and tested for.

We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one else
(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. What they
are is a little black cylinder, if you open the door on the left side of the
machine (opposite the motor) you can see two wires the thinner of the two
has one filter on it now (the wire loops around it) I now have two more. I
could not loop the wire so my guess is the two filters they sent act like
one additional static filter
Joe
"steamer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> --What are these "filters" you're referring to? I've yet to have a
> cartridge activate so maybe I've got a newer iteration?
>
> --
> "Steamboat Ed" Haas : Nihil curo de ista tua
> Hacking the Trailing Edge! : stulta superstitione...
> http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
> ---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message

> At least you will keep all of your fingers if you are never able to use
the
> saw!

Appropriately named also.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:15:26 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Bob
S" <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>expensive.

Don't try this at home with Forrest WWII blades, boys 'n girls.

--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
> > > somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like
that.
> >
> > You're scary!
>
> Think so? Maybe you're just lucky or extra careful or maybe I'm unlucky
and
> careless. I've always considered a small amount of pain as just part of
the
> process. Be it a splinter or sore muscles from hand sanding something or
> getting a blister on my hand from twisting a screwdriver or whatever. I'd
> guess it also depends on what kind of woodworking one is doing too. Of the
> woodworking I do, cabinet making using a veneered plywood is my favourite
> and that automatically means a few splinters somewhere in the process.
>
>

I was banking on the fact that I've established myself *not* to be one of
the safety nazi's and was trying to throw a little light hearted jab your
way. I have to admit - I was also thinking more of a little nicked finger
here, a little nicked finger there more than I was thinking about a
splinter...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:15:26 GMT, Bob S <[email protected]> wrote:
> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
> expensive.

Ssssh, we're not allowed to comment because we wouldn't buy the saw. Or
something like that.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:06:22 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <%E%[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the ones
>>that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>>basis.
>
> Then you haven't been looking too carefully: PopWood reviewed the SawStop
> recently, and they noted the same problem.

Ah, but that is the standard "I haven't listened to a single complaint"
kind of line, you see.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:24:31 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <_bfof.33909$q%[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Published magazine articles were not revalent to the OP's specific question
>>as his question was posted to those in this news group.

Good Lord. Bill Clinton has been located, and he's shilling for
SawStop. It depends on what your definition of the word "is" is,
apparently.

>>In a separate paragraph and with both sentences being in that paragraph, me
>>mentioning that I monitor this group on an almost daily basis would be the
>>indicator here that I was talking about people on this news group. It in no
>>way referenced any other source of information. A logical assumption would
>>be that I have not read any complaints _here_.

No, your words were quite clear that you were unaware of any complaints.
So, were you looking other places as well and lied, or are you only
looking here and not seeing them.

> IOW, you haven't been _looking_ for complaints anywhere but here. Hence my
> comment that you haven't been looking very carefully. You've already amply
> demonstrated that you're so wrapped up in the idea that the SawStop is the
> greatest invention since sliced bread that you're not interested in hearing
> about any of its problems.

Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
out the obvious design problems before they went to production.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:37:45 -0500, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
>>out the obvious design problems before they went to production.

> Is that what is behind the vehemence of the anti sawstop feeling of a
> few here?

In part, yes.

> I think sawstop is a cool idea if:
> 1) it (or a future refinement of it) proves itself not to have
> problems like the OP was citing,

Yup. Lots of variables in relying on electrical means to determine if
flesh is in contact with the blade, and wood and flesh aren't all that
different, sometimes.

> 2) the cost of the feature comes down, and
> 3) big brother doesn't suddenly get the idea of protecting me from
> myself by requiring such technology.

That's the biggest problem I see with their approach. They started out
with their regulatory approach rather than making a good product that
works well.

> If there were design problems some folks pointed out, I'd have to ask
> if those pointing out the problems were arm-chair engineers, or folks
> who really understood the technology very well.

In my case, I've designed and implemented commercial systems using
electrical current measurements to determine the positions of materials,
so I'd say I'm a bit beyond "armchair" on the topic. The problems
inherent in the situation are immense, not the least of which being
leakage current issues...in a difficult environement...

> Even if the latter, is
> it just bruised egos of having the advice ignored that is causing this
> reaction, or is there something more that might explain such a strong
> reaction?

Well, Leon or whatever his name is, isn't the easiest person to talk to,
which never helps when trying to shill for a product.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:36:41 -0500, Upscale <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Charles Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> there's a lot of things that effective. that's only about 30 seconds/year
> of
>> downtime. i've seen lots of computers do that easily. of course, i work
> for
>> http://stratus.com. most common household objects are effective in that
>> range, lots are more effective.

> 99.9999% is 1/10,000th. Name one thing that has worked perfectly every time,
> failing only one time in 10,000?

My refrigerator has had zero seconds of downtime in about 8 years.
Likewise my pencil sharpener; it always works. And so on. 6 nines
isn't remarkable for uncomplicated machinery.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:52:23 -0500, Upscale <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> My refrigerator has had zero seconds of downtime in about 8 years.
>> Likewise my pencil sharpener; it always works. And so on. 6 nines
>> isn't remarkable for uncomplicated machinery.
>
> You've converted 99.9999% into a few seconds of time as balanced against a
> year. To me being effective means how many times has it been used and
> maintained that effectiveness.

I'm pointing out that measurement statistics are useless when you can
just change the unit of measure to shift the digits around.

> And face it, we're talking about a Sawstop which is considerably more
> complicated than anything you'd label as uncomplicated machinery. If it fell
> into that category, my guess is that it would have been on the market years
> ago.

I'd say it's about as complicated as a refrigerator, maybe less so.
That's why I chose that and not, say, a yard stick.

On 17 Dec 2005 12:20:42 GMT, Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
>> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.
>
> Look into "6 Sigma" - here's a FAQ:
> http://www.isixsigma.com/sixsigma/six_sigma.asp

Six sigma is a good set of tools, but again, change your definition of
"opportunity for defect", and you can skew it by several orders of
magnitude.

> to achieve 6 sigma quality, you need 3.4 defects per 6 million
> opportunities.
> Thousands of businesses are using this data-driven methodology to
> improve quality and profit.

Yes, the analysis tools that come along with it are valuable.

> GE, for instance, claims to have saved $10 billion because of this.

They've actually backed off quite a bit. It was turning into a cult,
which turned off quite a lot of people there, and impeded progress
substantially in many cases.

> They really needed to, because their quality was low at the time.

Right, because every GE business is exactly the same, is that it?

> I
> heard of a story where some city was going to buy a $5 million
> generator, and when the boss found out that they were planning to by a
> GE generator - he said "No way. My wife bought a GE refrigerator, and
> it was a piece of crap."

Yeah, because appliances and power systems are, you know, exactly the
same thing. But, managers make bad decisions for a variety of reasons,
no surprise there, I guess.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:06:14 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:

>>> Yeah, because appliances and power systems are, you know, exactly the
>>> same thing.

>> No I don't know. But you are welcome to your own opinion.

> Such a waste of good sarcasm.

Indeed.
>

On 18 Dec 2005 13:15:51 GMT, Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> No I don't know. But you are welcome to your own opinion.
>>
>> Such a waste of good sarcasm.
>
> In general I've found that politeness is the best response to a
> sarcastic asshole.

Pointing out that GE is made up of many businesses, which vary greatly
in management, criticality, and quality, is being a sarcastic asshole?
Funny, I thought I was speaking from direct personal experience based on
more than a dozen years working there.

Or was it my point that managers make arbitrary bad decisions for a
variety of reasons? Maybe that hit close to home or something? (shrug)

On 19 Dec 2005 12:24:23 GMT, Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> In general I've found that politeness is the best response to a
>>> sarcastic asshole.
>>
>> Pointing out that GE is made up of many businesses, which vary greatly
>> in management, criticality, and quality, is being a sarcastic asshole?

> If you said it that way - I would have not problems with it. I
> deliberately worded my response to be middle of the road, neither
> saying 6-sigma was great, or saying it was a crock. If you wanted to
> agree with me or disagree with me, fine.

I, likewise, didn't make a judgement call on six-sigma. It's a great
set of tools but was initially implemented in a heavy-handed,
obstructive way at GE.

> But you chose the sarcastic tone as a response, implying I was stupid.

Actually, that just implies that I'm sarcastic. Which I acknowledge.

>> Funny, I thought I was speaking from direct personal experience based on
>> more than a dozen years working there.

> So that automatically make you right? And this supposed superiority
> of yours grants you the privilege of being sarcastic instead of being civil?

Hell, you can get the same information reading the annual report. It's
even online.

>> Or was it my point that managers make arbitrary bad decisions for a
>> variety of reasons? Maybe that hit close to home or something? (shrug)

> And now a personal attack?

You seem awfully touchy, Bruce. I thought that that might be one
logical reason that you took it so personally when I commented about bad
decision-making by managers.

> I stand by my comment.

Glad to hear it. As do I.

On 20 Dec 2005 12:30:37 GMT, Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
>> the purposes of marketing the Sawstop.
>
>
> Didn't the inventor of the GFI also put "life and limb" on the line in
> his marketing? Or rather - put his son at risk?
> I tried a google search, and didn't find anything.
> Perhaps I just heard a urban legend.

Dunno, but the guy who invented the "Second Chance" ballistic vest
tested it on himself, on tape. Dramatic footage.

>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:42:41 -0800, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:22:09 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
> Chris Friesen <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>>I saw it demoed with a frozen hotdog. The demonstrator said that the
>>inventor demos it at woodworking shows using his fingers.

> He does, does he? (Get ready, Darwin.)

Unless he's reproducing in an unexpected way, the loss of fingers isn't
a Darwinistic event.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:31:58 -0500, WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greg G. wrote:

>> It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
>> rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
>> incompetence. :-\

> Restrict him to cotton and sack cloth -- then he can do penance
> simultaneously with his misdeeds.

Iron Age and some other safetey shoe makers make work shoes with
conductive soles. You can use a special wax on the floors, and he'll be
grounded effectively that way.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:44:24 -0500, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:

> Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
> or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
> been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
> right standard for removing from the novelty category.

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab -
Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement.
They also specifically decided not to patent it, and to share the
technology, so other makers could use this safety system. Similarly,
Saab has come up with dozens of innovations which they likewise have
decided not to be exclusive on.

The approach of "force everyone to buy a product that they can only get
from us" is, I think, the biggest problem. The quality control and
design problems are secondary.

Todd the wood junkie wrote:
> I
> don't think it has been tested on live fingers, in every possible
> working condition (only on chickens and hotdogs).

I saw it demoed with a frozen hotdog. The demonstrator said that the
inventor demos it at woodworking shows using his fingers.

Chris

arw01 wrote:

> Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?

Wow, I'm suspected of being a troll. That's a first for me...

I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.

Chris

Todd the wood junkie wrote:
> Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
> the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
> blade.

I think it is unrealistic to expect any safety device to *prevent*
accidents. Airbags, brakes, fire extinguishers--they all fail or go off
prematurely under certain conditions.

A more realistic view is that the purpose of the sawstop is to reduce
the likelihood/severity of accidental injury when flesh contacts the blade.

Viewed in this light, I think it's a great idea.

That said, I don't think it should be mandatory, and I don't think it's
worth the current premium for myself as a hobbyist.

Chris

Upscale wrote:
<snip>
>
>99.9999% is 1/10,000th. Name one thing that has worked perfectly every time,
>failing only one time in 10,000?

Shouldn't that be one in a million?

R,
Tom Q.
--
Remove bogusinfo to reply.

--What are these "filters" you're referring to? I've yet to have a
cartridge activate so maybe I've got a newer iteration?

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Nihil curo de ista tua
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : stulta superstitione...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> failing only one time in 10,000?
>
> Hey, that's getting kind of personal. And that one time I was really
> tired having worked a long day.
> Ed


Whew and I thought I was the only one that happened to. LOL

Hi,
Mark was ripping a stair tread to 9-1/2" (we have treads in 9" and 10")
there was a strip of wood less than 1/2" as a drop, for what ever reason he
went to push the drop piece out of the way with his left thumb, he pushed
the blade instead. His thumb much like the hotdog had a nick the width of
the blade but not deep at all. Gave him a good scare and I am sure his thumb
will throb a little tonight but he is fine. It's amazing how little impact
there is on the saw when this happens, it a very well built machine we have
a Powermatic 66 and a Delta unisaw here also and the are not in the same
class as this saw, I even am reusing one of the blades that was imbedded
into a cartridge.
Joe
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not
supposed
> >to?
> >> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
Stop
> >> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
in
> >a
> >> two week period
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >IT WORKS!
> >Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
no
> >problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
> >operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
> >serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
> >little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
> >Joe (OP)
> >
>
> Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
> i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were
the
> circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
> itself.
>
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a
> scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing
> where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll
> bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time.
> I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each
> time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use
> the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc..
> How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are
> standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
> engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
> this does better be completely tested.
>

Yes, there is a difference between a canned demo and an exhaustive
evaluation, but go look at what the claims are by the manufacturer. Read
the FAQ - it clearly states conditions which can overwhelm the capabilities
of the device and result in serious injury. It does not claim to address
every possible condition. It attempts to deliver incremental gain.

This whole thing was beaten up badly a few months ago in threads on this
group. There was a big division between advocates and those with
philosophical problems with the whole thing. Most of the issues really came
down to a lot of us not caring for the heavy handed approach the patent
holders took, in attempt to legislate the use of their product on all saws.
There really was not a lot of objection to the concept of the device in
principle.

As far as standing in a puddle of water, or grease or anything else - those
don't change the electrical capacitance of the human body, which is the
electrical principle that the device works under.

Remember - the product does not suggest it can completely eliminate
injuries. It attempts to address a common form of injury, and bring a
measure of lessened risk. It clearly states that it can be overwhelmed by
certain conditions.

The most annoying aspect of the discussions that took place here in the past
were the arguments that went off on all sorts of assumptions and false
pretenses, and wandered away from the expressed intent of the device.

Whether it's worth the price is up to the individual - for what it's worth,
in my opinion, it's not worth what they get for it, all things considered.
It is a worthwhile effort to examine and to question manufacturer's claims,
but when doing so it's also worthwhile to take a look at what their claims
are, and what they are publishing before throwing the questions on the
floor.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Every store has a full woodshop....we make all of our own displays, and
> prepare course material etc. ...

Yes, my apologies, I completely forgot about the courses that each store
runs. It would be interesting once you get the Sawstops in for some of your
woodworkers to write and post their opinion of the machine.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
> > the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
> > said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.
>
> Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
> the purposes of marketing the Sawstop. I wouldn't have the courage to move
> my finger into the blade fast enough to be capable of taking it off, but
I'd
> be willing do it slowly with the possibility of nicking the finger. Hell,
I
> don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
> somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like that.
>
>

You're scary!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"arw01" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is the latest from joe, his followup is missing here..
>
> Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?
>
I posted to my original post a few minutes ago, I don't get to post very
much I like to read them. Unless I have something worth adding and this
morring I did we got a live demo thanks to Mark and his thumb.
Joe

On 12/14/2005 4:34 PM Leon mumbled something about the following:
> "Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OX%[email protected]...
>> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>> expensive.
>>
>> Bob S.
>
>
> No kidding and hopefully Joe is correct in his observation of the misfire.
> Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
> watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
> else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend? Anyway I wonder if it is
> possible for some one to carry enough static electricity that he may set the
> cartridge off by discharge?
>
>

Not urban legend. I screw up watches when I wear them. I did actually
purchase a $19 Timex in 98 that kept perfect time for 5 years until I
had to replace the battery. It never kept time after than (tried 3
different batteries).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
> the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
> said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.

Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
the purposes of marketing the Sawstop. I wouldn't have the courage to move
my finger into the blade fast enough to be capable of taking it off, but I'd
be willing do it slowly with the possibility of nicking the finger. Hell, I
don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like that.

"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a
> scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing
> where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll
> bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time.
> I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each
> time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use
> the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc..
> How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are
> standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
> engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
> this does better be completely tested.

With all this to consider, how well do you think you would fare with all of
the above circumstances and a regular saw?

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I
>> heard of a story where some city was going to buy a $5 million
>> generator, and when the boss found out that they were planning to by a
>> GE generator - he said "No way. My wife bought a GE refrigerator, and
>> it was a piece of crap."
>
> Yeah, because appliances and power systems are, you know, exactly the
> same thing. But, managers make bad decisions for a variety of reasons,
> no surprise there, I guess.

Many companies have whored reputable brand names into other aspects of
business to make a quick buck. Not a surprise that in some cases it could
backfire. Once people have an association, it can be difficult to change,
no mater how wrong it may be.

Any hotdogs on the table? :)

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
a
> two week period
> Joe
>
>

alexy wrote:

> "Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
>>the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
>>blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
>>plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
>>new markets of users:
>>
>>1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
>>case of a mistep.
>>2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
>>feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
>>still throw wood back at them).
>>3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)
>>
>>Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
>>implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
>>point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
>>effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
>>it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
>>disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
>>portion of what I would consider the long term target market.
>>
>>Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
>>novelty.
>
>
> Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
> or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
> been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
> right standard for removing from the novelty category.
>
> Now whether it is sufficiently effective, I don't know; I'm just
> quibbling with the idea that perfection should be the standard.


Having a tire blowout or getting wiped out by some airhead chatting on a
cell phone while piloting her SUV 20 MPH over the speed limit is not in
the same category as a usually self-inflicted wound at a table saw.
While woodworking YOU are in charge of what you are doing. On the open
road you are at the mercy of others, as well as a mechanical failure. I
don't know of many (if ANY) finger loses due SOLELY to mechanical
failure of a table saw. If I'm wrong, enlighten me. I'll stick with my
Unisaw for now...

Dave

Larry Bud wrote:


> Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.
>
> http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069
>
So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
intermittent use? :)

Dave

"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>
> Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
> implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
> point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
> effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed.

I think it is. It has its acute problem right now but that is to be
expected. So far the problem is a nusence.


When needed
> it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
> disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
> portion of what I would consider the long term target market.
>
> Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
> novelty.

I bet Joe would beg to differ with you since the saw just saved one of his
employees thumbs by working as advertised.
If the safety feature never works correctly to prevent an injury again Joe
is ahead of the game.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> 99.9999% is 1/10,000th. Name one thing that has worked perfectly every
> time,
> failing only one time in 10,000?

Hey, that's getting kind of personal. And that one time I was really tired
having worked a long day.
Ed

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> Hi Leon -
>
> Everyone makes mistakes... it's how you fix 'em that counts.

And or what you do to help prevent them.


> Statistics are what makes getting bigger less fun. With about 1000 people
> employed, those 1 in 1000 events happen with some regularity ... :)


Way too often I am sure.

> We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>

"Enoch Root" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robin Lee wrote:
>
> > We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> > gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.
>
> Um, what's happening with the old saws? :)
>
> er

All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
equipment.

Let the games begin... :)

"Chip"
...who is obviously kidding.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>>I've had this happen with one of my SawStops. It misfired twice in a
>>week period. SawStop sent me free replacement cartridges and some
>>filters to put around one of the control cables in the saw. With the
>>filters in place I have not had a misfire since (4 months).
>
> See that, Leon? <g>


Yeah... :~) Now I have heard of this problem. I did not doubt that there
could be a problem and I am sure there are other out there with the same
problem.

Did you see my reference of the watch problem back in the 60's in an earlier
post in this thread? Joe the OP has found that out of the 10 people that
use this saw that the misfire only happens to one person. He seems to
think it is a digital watch problem. How coincidental is that???

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry Bud wrote:
>
>
>> Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.
>>
>> http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069
>>
> So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
> intermittent use? :)
>
> Dave

You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.
>>>
>>>http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069
>>>
>>
>>So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
>>intermittent use? :)
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
> drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.
>
>
Hmm...a drive that can last 63 years, but is obsolete within 63 days of
purchase. Every time I've purchased a HD, within a couple of weeks,
there's a newer model that boasts much larger capacity for less money.
Dave

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> IOW, you haven't been _looking_ for complaints anywhere but here.

Actually I have not been looking for complaints at all. I have read 3 other
reviews including a recent one in a magazine on the saw and none had any
mention of this problem.

Hence my comment that you haven't been looking very carefully.

Since I have not been looking for complaints at all, I have indeed not been
looking carefully.

You've already amply demonstrated that you're so wrapped up in the idea
that the SawStop is the
> greatest invention since sliced bread that you're not interested in
> hearing
> about any of its problems.

Not so. I do believe it is a great idea but also believe that the saw has
to prove itself. I do however defend the idea of the saw and its safety
features and am not really interested in hearing non-fact based speculation
of what might happen. Up until this thread I have not heard anything
negative from an "actual user". Your mentioning the article and the posts
by 2 people on this thread have now proveded information that is more than
speculation.
No big deal, I now know that misfires have indeed been reported. It was
only a matter of time before that happened.
Thanks for pointing out the article.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:0cTpf.2092$%[email protected]...
> >
>
> >
> > If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury
already....
> > and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....
>
>
> Oh, so you and your crew are not immortal or incapable or making a mistake
> either. There are some people that think that they are. LOL
>

Hi Leon -

Everyone makes mistakes... it's how you fix 'em that counts.

Statistics are what makes getting bigger less fun. With about 1000 people
employed, those 1 in 1000 events happen with some regularity ... :)

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Cheers -

Rob

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Some people are just slow to change. Owners, those with actual hands on
>>experience with the machine seem to be pleased with their purchases.
>
> Oh, yeah, the guy with three misfires (in as many weeks?) is real pleased
> with
> his purchase, I'm sure. Uh-huh. Riiiiiiiight.

So ask him if he is sorry that he purchased the saw and would seriousely
like to return it for a refund. I betting that he probably wants to keep
it. It is a machine, like an automobile except much cheaper. The world
ain't perfect. The tool is man made just like its competition. Nothing is
flawless.

> Like I said: you're so wrapped up in this idea that you can't bring
> yourself
> to see or hear any of the problems with it.

You repeat that, did you for get that you said that? You refuse to
acknowledge that I have already acknowledged that there are in deed problems
with the machine now that the problems have actually materialized. It is as
wrong of a statement now as the first time you said it. I really have no
reason to defend the saw. I have no problem agreeing with you when what you
say holds water.

hello,

> We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Does that mean that you are selling cheap but good 2nd hand saws?

cyrille, interested...

Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
expensive.

Bob S.


"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No it hits the blade alright, by no contact I mean blade with body parts
> like fingers or any metal to blade contact. But the cartage is stopping
> the
> blade alright
> Joe
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%E%[email protected]...
>>
>> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not
>> > supposed
>> > to?
>> > I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
> Stop
>> > replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
> in
>> > a
>> > two week period
>> > Joe
>>
>> Not doubting that you are having problems with the cartridge misfiring
>> but
>> how does it not hit the blade? I would think that there is something
>> else
>> badly wrong if the cartridge fires but does not touch the blade.
>> OR are you saying that there was no contact with the blade to cause a
>> misfire.
>>
>> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the
> ones
>> that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>> basis.
>>
>>
>
>

I've found it best not to test the effectiveness of a safety device. You
stay in better shape that way.

"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'd like to see someone push their hand into it in a manner simulating
> a "worst case scenario". How do we *know* it will work with an actual
> hand?
>
> JP
>

In article <_bfof.33909$q%[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Do you not read any sources of woodworking information other than this
>> newsgroup?
>>
>> You didn't say you hadn't seen any complaints _here_. You said you hadn't
>> seen
>> any complaints, period. Which leads me to conclude that you haven't been
>> looking very hard.
>
>
>Published magazine articles were not revalent to the OP's specific question
>as his question was posted to those in this news group. That said, with you
>mentioning the PopWood article he should now understand that there is
>indeed some one else that has had this problem however he is probably not
>going to get any personal feed back from the person that wrote that article.
>
>(I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the ones
>that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>basis.)
>
>In a separate paragraph and with both sentences being in that paragraph, me
>mentioning that I monitor this group on an almost daily basis would be the
>indicator here that I was talking about people on this news group. It in no
>way referenced any other source of information. A logical assumption would
>be that I have not read any complaints _here_.

IOW, you haven't been _looking_ for complaints anywhere but here. Hence my
comment that you haven't been looking very carefully. You've already amply
demonstrated that you're so wrapped up in the idea that the SawStop is the
greatest invention since sliced bread that you're not interested in hearing
about any of its problems.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>At least you will keep all of your fingers if you are never able to use the
>saw!

True... but the same objective can be achieved at a much lower cost by simply
unplugging the saw. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Who are you responding too?





"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:24:31 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <_bfof.33909$q%[email protected]>, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>Published magazine articles were not revalent to the OP's specific
>>>question
>>>as his question was posted to those in this news group.
>
> Good Lord. Bill Clinton has been located, and he's shilling for
> SawStop. It depends on what your definition of the word "is" is,
> apparently.
>
>>>In a separate paragraph and with both sentences being in that paragraph,
>>>me
>>>mentioning that I monitor this group on an almost daily basis would be
>>>the
>>>indicator here that I was talking about people on this news group. It in
>>>no
>>>way referenced any other source of information. A logical assumption
>>>would
>>>be that I have not read any complaints _here_.
>
> No, your words were quite clear that you were unaware of any complaints.
> So, were you looking other places as well and lied, or are you only
> looking here and not seeing them.
>
>> IOW, you haven't been _looking_ for complaints anywhere but here. Hence
>> my
>> comment that you haven't been looking very carefully. You've already
>> amply
>> demonstrated that you're so wrapped up in the idea that the SawStop is
>> the
>> greatest invention since sliced bread that you're not interested in
>> hearing
>> about any of its problems.
>
> Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
> out the obvious design problems before they went to production.
>
>
>

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
> to?
> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
> a
> two week period
> Joe
>

Is it running when it fires? It pretty much destroys the blade and throws
the saw out of whack doesn't it?
What a pain in the ass.

At least you will keep all of your fingers if you are never able to use the
saw!

Frank

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Ah, but that is the standard "I haven't listened to a single complaint"
> kind of line, you see.


You know Dave, at least I try to help rather than take your path of being a
cynic of Net Nanny.

On Fri 16 Dec 2005 04:36:41p, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> 99.9999% is 1/10,000th. Name one thing that has worked perfectly every
> time, failing only one time in 10,000?

No offense meant, Upscale, but in the context we're talking here, I think
the possibility that my tablesaw will eat my tablesaw blade is about .0001
percent. I can't prove it but I'm operating on that assumption.

If I thought the percentage was higher, I think I'd sell my tablesaw.

In article <[email protected]>, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:

I think sawstop is a cool idea if:
>1) it (or a future refinement of it) proves itself not to have
>problems like the OP was citing,
>2) the cost of the feature comes down, and
>3) big brother doesn't suddenly get the idea of protecting me from
>myself by requiring such technology.

It's that last one there that has a lot of us concerned. Big Brother already
got that idea, directly from SawStop. The company petitioned the CPSC to have
their technology made mandatory on all new table saws, and *that* is the
source of most of the anti-SawStop sentiment here.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> My refrigerator has had zero seconds of downtime in about 8 years.
> Likewise my pencil sharpener; it always works. And so on. 6 nines
> isn't remarkable for uncomplicated machinery.

You've converted 99.9999% into a few seconds of time as balanced against a
year. To me being effective means how many times has it been used and
maintained that effectiveness.

And face it, we're talking about a Sawstop which is considerably more
complicated than anything you'd label as uncomplicated machinery. If it fell
into that category, my guess is that it would have been on the market years
ago.

On 12/21/2005 1:30 PM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.
>>>
>>> http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069
>>>
>> So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
>> intermittent use? :)
>>
>> Dave
>
> You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
> drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.
>
>

That would be me heading in that direction. I have a hard drive that
I've owned for 12 years now, has been in several different computers
over the years, runs constantly, and still not one single new bad sector
since I brought it home. Typically, I don't keep old hard drives like
this because they're too old and too small, but a firewall doesn't need
speed or size, it just needs to load and log (I've thought of building a
CD-ROM version of this firewall that syslogs to another system).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
> want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
> helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
> can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
> certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.

Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > We will take (or have taken ) delivery of our first Sawstop saw.... we
> will
> > eventually (as soon as we can get 'em) replace every table/cabinet saw
we
> > have.... something like 13-15 saws...
>
> If I might ask Robin, what purpose would that number of saws serve for Lee
> Valley Tools? I can envision a tablesaw or two for testing purposes and
> maybe for research purposes when making new products. But, without my
> thumbing through your catalogue, I don't remember seeing too many wooden
or
> plastic products constructed by LV where a tablesaw might be required.
>
>

Hi -

Every store has a full woodshop....we make all of our own displays, and
prepare course material etc. ...

Then we have woodshops for the R&D guys, and for general corporate use....

Cheers -

Rob

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Do you not read any sources of woodworking information other than this
> newsgroup?
>
> You didn't say you hadn't seen any complaints _here_. You said you hadn't
> seen
> any complaints, period. Which leads me to conclude that you haven't been
> looking very hard.


Published magazine articles were not revalent to the OP's specific question
as his question was posted to those in this news group. That said, with you
mentioning the PopWood article he should now understand that there is
indeed some one else that has had this problem however he is probably not
going to get any personal feed back from the person that wrote that article.

(I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the ones
that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
basis.)

In a separate paragraph and with both sentences being in that paragraph, me
mentioning that I monitor this group on an almost daily basis would be the
indicator here that I was talking about people on this news group. It in no
way referenced any other source of information. A logical assumption would
be that I have not read any complaints _here_. My comments are simply my
findings and an answer to the OP question. His question, Any one have
problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed to?, was not
asking about articles so much as personal experience. I simply stated that
I have seen no reference of a problem myself although now that you have
mention that article I can now say that I have heard through some on a news
group that hey have read an article in PopWood an article that references a
cartridge misfiring. ;~) I'm as certain as you are that others are
probably having or going to have a similar problem. Anything could happen,
Unisaws tend to have a broken trunion problem. LOL

Greg G. wrote:
> Joe said:
>=20
>=20
>>We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one =
else
>>(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. <snip>=

>=20
>=20
> I have friend like that - He worked in a computer shop where they
> called him Mr. Lightning. Wouldn't let him near any electronic
> equipment without discharging him first.
>=20
> It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
> rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
> incompetence. :-\
>=20
>=20
> Greg G.


Restrict him to cotton and sack cloth -- then he can do penance=20
simultaneously with his misdeeds.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Robin Lee wrote:

> We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Um, what's happening with the old saws? :)

er
--
email not valid

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>

> Hi Cyrille (and Enoch) -
>
> Yes - we'll be selling the saws we have...not sure how we're doing it
> though... will ask!
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>


Hi -

Sorry guys - looks like most of the saws are spoken for (by employees)...

Cheers -

Rob

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:22:09 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Chris Friesen <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>Todd the wood junkie wrote:
>> I
>> don't think it has been tested on live fingers, in every possible
>> working condition (only on chickens and hotdogs).
>
>I saw it demoed with a frozen hotdog. The demonstrator said that the
>inventor demos it at woodworking shows using his fingers.

He does, does he? (Get ready, Darwin.)


--
Action is eloquence. --William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>
> IT WORKS!
> Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
> no
> problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
> operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
> serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
> little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
> Joe (OP)


Now aren't you and Mark just thrilled that you purchased that saw. The
misfires were certainly an inconvenience but in the end the product just
paid for it self.

No it hits the blade alright, by no contact I mean blade with body parts
like fingers or any metal to blade contact. But the cartage is stopping the
blade alright
Joe
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%E%[email protected]...
>
> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
> > to?
> > I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
Stop
> > replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
in
> > a
> > two week period
> > Joe
>
> Not doubting that you are having problems with the cartridge misfiring but
> how does it not hit the blade? I would think that there is something else
> badly wrong if the cartridge fires but does not touch the blade.
> OR are you saying that there was no contact with the blade to cause a
> misfire.
>
> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the
ones
> that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
> basis.
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>I've had this happen with one of my SawStops. It misfired twice in a
>week period. SawStop sent me free replacement cartridges and some
>filters to put around one of the control cables in the saw. With the
>filters in place I have not had a misfire since (4 months).

See that, Leon? <g>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0cTpf.2092$%[email protected]...
>

>
> If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury already....
> and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....


Oh, so you and your crew are not immortal or incapable or making a mistake
either. There are some people that think that they are. LOL

Chris Friesen wrote:

> arw01 wrote:
>
>> Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?
>
>
> Wow, I'm suspected of being a troll. That's a first for me...
>
> I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
> the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
> said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.
>
> Chris

From what I've heard the exhibitor is smart; the hotdogs they have used
have been nicked, indicating a finger coming into contact with a Sawstop
equipped blade would be left bleeding. IIRC, I've even seen one picture
of a nicked up finger somewhere online, but I might be wrong on that.

Dave

In article <[email protected]>,
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed to?
> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in a
> two week period
> Joe

Are you in the process of making a cut when this happens?

"Charles Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
>>>out the obvious design problems before they went to production.
>>
>> Is that what is behind the vehemence of the anti sawstop feeling of a
>> few here?

<snip>

>check the history of this back a few years. sawstop attempted to have the
>gov't make it mandatory on all new saws, and holding the patent ...
>

Aha! That explains it. I still think it is a neat idea, but glad
enough in power did not buy into making it mandatory.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
>to?
>> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
>> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
>a
>> two week period
>> Joe
>>
>>
>IT WORKS!
>Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with no
>problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
>operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
>serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
>little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
>Joe (OP)
>

Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were the
circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
itself.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OX%[email protected]...
>> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>> expensive.
>>
>> Bob S.
>
>
> No kidding and hopefully Joe is correct in his observation of the
> misfire.
> Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
> watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
> else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend? Anyway I wonder if it is
> possible for some one to carry enough static electricity that he may set
> the cartridge off by discharge?
>

Maybe he's predisposed to spontaneous human combustion or something.
<backing away slowly>

"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
>>out the obvious design problems before they went to production.
>
> Is that what is behind the vehemence of the anti sawstop feeling of a
> few here? I think sawstop is a cool idea if:
> 1) it (or a future refinement of it) proves itself not to have
> problems like the OP was citing,
> 2) the cost of the feature comes down, and
> 3) big brother doesn't suddenly get the idea of protecting me from
> myself by requiring such technology.
>
> If there were design problems some folks pointed out, I'd have to ask
> if those pointing out the problems were arm-chair engineers, or folks
> who really understood the technology very well. Even if the latter, is
> it just bruised egos of having the advice ignored that is causing this
> reaction, or is there something more that might explain such a strong
> reaction?
> --
> Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
> infrequently.

check the history of this back a few years. sawstop attempted to have the
gov't make it mandatory on all new saws, and holding the patent ...

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
>> want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
>> helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
>> can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
>> certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.
>
> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

there's a lot of things that effective. that's only about 30 seconds/year of
downtime. i've seen lots of computers do that easily. of course, i work for
http://stratus.com. most common household objects are effective in that
range, lots are more effective.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> writes:

> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

Look into "6 Sigma" - here's a FAQ:

http://www.isixsigma.com/sixsigma/six_sigma.asp

to achieve 6 sigma quality, you need 3.4 defects per 6 million
opportunities.

Thousands of businesses are using this data-driven methodology to
improve quality and profit.

GE, for instance, claims to have saved $10 billion because of this.
They really needed to, because their quality was low at the time. I
heard of a story where some city was going to buy a $5 million
generator, and when the boss found out that they were planning to by a
GE generator - he said "No way. My wife bought a GE refrigerator, and
it was a piece of crap."


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:

> Right, because every GE business is exactly the same, is that it?

No. I don't believe that.

> Yeah, because appliances and power systems are, you know, exactly the
> same thing.


No I don't know. But you are welcome to your own opinion.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:

>> No I don't know. But you are welcome to your own opinion.
>
> Such a waste of good sarcasm.

In general I've found that politeness is the best response to a
sarcastic asshole.

Not that I needed to use it this time.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:

>> In general I've found that politeness is the best response to a
>> sarcastic asshole.
>
> Pointing out that GE is made up of many businesses, which vary greatly
> in management, criticality, and quality, is being a sarcastic asshole?


If you said it that way - I would have not problems with it. I
deliberately worded my response to be middle of the road, neither
saying 6-sigma was great, or saying it was a crock. If you wanted to
agree with me or disagree with me, fine.

But you chose the sarcastic tone as a response, implying I was stupid.

> Funny, I thought I was speaking from direct personal experience based on
> more than a dozen years working there.

So that automatically make you right? And this supposed superiority
of yours grants you the privilege of being sarcastic instead of being civil?

> Or was it my point that managers make arbitrary bad decisions for a
> variety of reasons? Maybe that hit close to home or something? (shrug)

And now a personal attack?

I stand by my comment.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> writes:

> Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
> the purposes of marketing the Sawstop.


Didn't the inventor of the GFI also put "life and limb" on the line in
his marketing? Or rather - put his son at risk?
I tried a google search, and didn't find anything.

Perhaps I just heard a urban legend.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Enoch Root" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Um, what's happening with the old saws? :)
>

He paid me $800 per unit to haul them away.

The scrap dealer will undoubtedly be willing to negotiate, and
probably has people who regularly look for machine tools.

Chip Chester wrote:

> All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
> are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
> the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
> replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
> then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
> equipment.
>

"Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OX%[email protected]...
> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
> expensive.
>
> Bob S.


No kidding and hopefully Joe is correct in his observation of the misfire.
Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend? Anyway I wonder if it is
possible for some one to carry enough static electricity that he may set the
cartridge off by discharge?

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
>out the obvious design problems before they went to production.

Is that what is behind the vehemence of the anti sawstop feeling of a
few here? I think sawstop is a cool idea if:
1) it (or a future refinement of it) proves itself not to have
problems like the OP was citing,
2) the cost of the feature comes down, and
3) big brother doesn't suddenly get the idea of protecting me from
myself by requiring such technology.

If there were design problems some folks pointed out, I'd have to ask
if those pointing out the problems were arm-chair engineers, or folks
who really understood the technology very well. Even if the latter, is
it just bruised egos of having the advice ignored that is causing this
reaction, or is there something more that might explain such a strong
reaction?
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

The Robin Lee entity posted thusly:

>I can't put my finger on it... but I'm pretty sure there's been a contact
>"incident" in the installed base of saws already....and it functioned
>properly.

Aside from "joe", who just posted about a contact incident, yes, there
have been a few. I just recently started reading the Wreck, and as
soon as I spotted the SawStop threads, checked out their web site.
There are a few testimonials and reports of contact incidents, all
successful.

Love your store, BTW.

Larry
---
There are 10 kinds of people --
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
-- Uncle Phil

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
> > I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
Stop
> > replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
in a
> > two week period
> > Joe
>
> Are you in the process of making a cut when this happens?

Yes, only when cutting small parts like stair returns which we use a push
block to cut. But I have now learned that out of the ten people or so that
use this saw during the day it has always misfired on the same person, so it
sounds like the digital watch problem. I will be calling Saw Stop as soon as
the wake up this morning (west coast)
Joe

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message

> standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
> engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
> this does better be completely tested.

You'd do better claiming not to be a lawyer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

An instructor commented in mid50s she couldn't were a watch. Had to
hold it in her hand for times exercises.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:34:07 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Bob S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:OX%[email protected]...
>> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>> expensive.
>>
>> Bob S.
>
>
>No kidding and hopefully Joe is correct in his observation of the misfire.
>Do you remember back in the 60's when certain people could not wear wrist
>watches as the watch would not keep correct time but did just fine on some
>else's wrist? Or was that an Urban Legend? Anyway I wonder if it is
>possible for some one to carry enough static electricity that he may set the
>cartridge off by discharge?
>

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:22:23 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
>> want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
>> helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
>> can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
>> certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.
>
>Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
>that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.
>

Critical components in aerospace applications are required to be a LOT
more reliable that a mere 99.9999%

I worked with a company that made internetworking backbone equipment.
Our customers demanded a better level of reliability than that. And
these devices are a LOT more complex than a Sawstop.

I have a 50 year old tractor that seems that reliable. And it sits on
a very, very, old concrete pad that is at least 99.9999% effective and
reliable.

I'm sure the Sawstop electronics and mechanism can be made reliable,
however, if the fundamental concept is flawed, (ie, it cannot reliably
discriminate between wet woood and dry hands) then it has a bigger
problem)

In the event of spurious tripping, do they offer free cartridges and
new blades forever? I could be interested then.

Barry Lennox

damn.......fergot 'bout that.....


"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:15:26 GMT, Bob S <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Wow... 3 misfires, 3 cartridges and 3 new blades - that's starting to get
>> expensive.
>
> Ssssh, we're not allowed to comment because we wouldn't buy the saw. Or
> something like that.
>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:05:44 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I wouldn't have the courage to move
>my finger into the blade fast enough to be capable of taking it off, but I'd
>be willing do it slowly with the possibility of nicking the finger

I would think that anyone with the smarts to invent the SawStop is
also smart enough not to touch the SHARP, POINTY part of the spinning
blade, but the smooth side, which will probably not result in a cut
(maybe a slight friction burn) but give the same desired result.

Matt

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> We will take (or have taken ) delivery of our first Sawstop saw.... we
will
> eventually (as soon as we can get 'em) replace every table/cabinet saw we
> have.... something like 13-15 saws...

If I might ask Robin, what purpose would that number of saws serve for Lee
Valley Tools? I can envision a tablesaw or two for testing purposes and
maybe for research purposes when making new products. But, without my
thumbing through your catalogue, I don't remember seeing too many wooden or
plastic products constructed by LV where a tablesaw might be required.

Joe said:

>We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one else
>(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. <snip>

I have friend like that - He worked in a computer shop where they
called him Mr. Lightning. Wouldn't let him near any electronic
equipment without discharging him first.

It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
incompetence. :-\


Greg G.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:48:18 -0800, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:


>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
... snip
>> >>
>> >IT WORKS!
>> >Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
>no
>> >problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
>> >operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
>> >serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
>> >little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
>> >Joe (OP)
>> >
>>
>> Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
>> i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were
>the
>> circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
>> itself.
>>
>>
>Hi,
>Mark was ripping a stair tread to 9-1/2" (we have treads in 9" and 10")
>there was a strip of wood less than 1/2" as a drop, for what ever reason he
>went to push the drop piece out of the way with his left thumb, he pushed
>the blade instead. His thumb much like the hotdog had a nick the width of
>the blade but not deep at all. Gave him a good scare and I am sure his thumb
>will throb a little tonight but he is fine. It's amazing how little impact
>there is on the saw when this happens, it a very well built machine we have
>a Powermatic 66 and a Delta unisaw here also and the are not in the same
>class as this saw, I even am reusing one of the blades that was imbedded
>into a cartridge.
>Joe

Wow, sounds like the saw really did save a thumb and some very serious
injury.






+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now Doug,

It is so unlike you to point out the painfully obvious solution.....;-)

Bob S,


"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Frank
> Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>At least you will keep all of your fingers if you are never able to use
>>the
>>saw!
>
> True... but the same objective can be achieved at a much lower cost by
> simply
> unplugging the saw. :-)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Chip Chester" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> er
>
> All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
> are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
> the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
> replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
> then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
> equipment.
>
> Let the games begin... :)
>
> "Chip"
> ...who is obviously kidding.

That would probably be totally on point in the U.S..

"Charles Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> there's a lot of things that effective. that's only about 30 seconds/year
of
> downtime. i've seen lots of computers do that easily. of course, i work
for
> http://stratus.com. most common household objects are effective in that
> range, lots are more effective.

99.9999% is 1/10,000th. Name one thing that has worked perfectly every time,
failing only one time in 10,000?

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
> I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
> replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
a
> two week period
> Joe
>
>
IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)

"Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Right, because every GE business is exactly the same, is that it?
>
> No. I don't believe that.
>
>> Yeah, because appliances and power systems are, you know, exactly the
>> same thing.
>
>
> No I don't know. But you are welcome to your own opinion.

Such a waste of good sarcasm.

"Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
>the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
>blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
>plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
>new markets of users:
>
>1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
>case of a mistep.
>2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
>feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
>still throw wood back at them).
>3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)
>
>Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
>implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
>point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
>effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
>it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
>disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
>portion of what I would consider the long term target market.
>
>Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
>novelty.

Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
right standard for removing from the novelty category.

Now whether it is sufficiently effective, I don't know; I'm just
quibbling with the idea that perfection should be the standard.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Charles Spitzer said:

>
>"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Todd the wood junkie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
>>> want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
>>> helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
>>> can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
>>> certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.
>>
>> Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
>> that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.
>
>there's a lot of things that effective. that's only about 30 seconds/year of
>downtime. i've seen lots of computers do that easily. of course, i work for
>http://stratus.com. most common household objects are effective in that
>range, lots are more effective.

Shoot, If I own something that _isn't_ that effective - it goes into
the land fill/recycle bin in short order. Of course, I don't own too
many _really new_ devices - and that's why.


Greg G.

In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <%E%[email protected]>, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the
>>> ones
>>>that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>>>basis.
>>
>> Then you haven't been looking too carefully: PopWood reviewed the SawStop
>> recently, and they noted the same problem.
>
>
>Does PopWood post on this news group?

Do you not read any sources of woodworking information other than this
newsgroup?

You didn't say you hadn't seen any complaints _here_. You said you hadn't seen
any complaints, period. Which leads me to conclude that you haven't been
looking very hard.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Imagine my surprise. I wonder if anyone in this group tried to point
>>out the obvious design problems before they went to production.
>
> Is that what is behind the vehemence of the anti sawstop feeling of a
> few here?

Uh huh. They do not like the methods that Saw Stop was using in the
beginning to bring the saw to market so many have become disenchanted with
the company as a whole and despite the fact that it has been brought to
market in a more ethical way they refuse to admit its existence. I can see
their reasons for not wanting the government to mandate this technology but
this did not happen. Give it a rest. At ease. Put down your guns. LOL


I think sawstop is a cool idea if:
> 1) it (or a future refinement of it) proves itself not to have
> problems like the OP was citing,
> 2) the cost of the feature comes down, and
> 3) big brother doesn't suddenly get the idea of protecting me from
> myself by requiring such technology.

All legetimate points.


> If there were design problems some folks pointed out, I'd have to ask
> if those pointing out the problems were arm-chair engineers,

Yes, 95% of are. The other 5% have more level headed and have a
realistic out look.


or folks
> who really understood the technology very well. Even if the latter, is
> it just bruised egos of having the advice ignored that is causing this
> reaction,

Bingo.

or is there something more that might explain such a strong
> reaction?

Some people are just slow to change. Owners, those with actual hands on
experience with the machine seem to be pleased with their purchases. No one
has pointed out being dismayed with their purchase of the saw although it
does apear to have an acute misfire problem with some users.

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "arw01" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> What is the latest from joe, his followup is missing here..
>>
>> Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?
>>
> I posted to my original post a few minutes ago, I don't get to post very
> much I like to read them. Unless I have something worth adding and this
> morring I did we got a live demo thanks to Mark and his thumb.
> Joe


So I strongly suspect that although you are having a problem with misfires,
Joe is happy that he was using a SawStop Saw. Huh?

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <%E%[email protected]>, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the
>> ones
>>that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>>basis.
>
> Then you haven't been looking too carefully: PopWood reviewed the SawStop
> recently, and they noted the same problem.


Does PopWood post on this news group?

In article <%E%[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have not seen any complaints about the Saw Stop other than from the ones
>that will not buy the saw. I do monitor this group on an almost daily
>basis.

Then you haven't been looking too carefully: PopWood reviewed the SawStop
recently, and they noted the same problem.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Cyrille de Brébisson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> hello,
>
> > We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
> > gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.
>
> Does that mean that you are selling cheap but good 2nd hand saws?
>
> cyrille, interested...
>
>

Hi Cyrille (and Enoch) -

Yes - we'll be selling the saws we have...not sure how we're doing it
though... will ask!

Cheers -

Rob