Why using Pressure treated vs. cedar for making deck, AND best time for staining PT

"FardinA" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> cedar/readwood are in the market?

For most, marketing and apparent cost, if the bottom line is the $ a lot of
people won't look any further. For the others, beauty, aesthetics, and
health concerns are worth the difference in $ cost.

Bernard R

FardinA wrote:
> Hi,
> I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> bad and ugly results.

I waited a year to stain mine as the wood needed to dry out. Looks awesome
now.

Keep in mind that the EPA consists of a bunch of Mother Earth people that
would have us all riding bicycles, making our own clothes from the wool we
shear from the sheep in the front yard and eating eggs from the chickens
(free range of course) in the back yard. They tend to exaggerate things and
have been known to tinker with statistical models to "prove" their theories
to get to the results they want (e.g. check out the history of the second
hand smoke studies that prevent you from enjoying a cigarette or cigar with
your cocktail in more and more places around the country). There is no
better example of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (ranked from left to right
in order of true, less true and even less true).

I've used CCA treated wood for years on decks, railings and outdoor benches.
It was a reasonable solution to a common problem. I was smart enough to
avoid it on anything that would come in contact with food like picnic table
tops and such. That was just common sense...I know there are chemicals in
it and many times the wood was still wet in the working phase and for
sometime after, most likely forever. Practical solution to that was to
teach my kids to not eat anything that slipped and hit the ground, whether
CCA decks, kitchen floor (Mr. Clean has to taste great), lawn (bet those
herbacides/pestacides will be great for you) or anywhere else. Throw it
away and go get another one. If there aren't anymore, then they start to
learn that they shouldn't drop them.





"codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Check out this link (Environmental Protection Agency):
> http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/cca_qa.htm
>
> Key Points:
> - After machining (cutting, routing, etc), boil your clothes and hands
> - Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and is acutely toxic
> - Arsenic does leach from CCA-treated wood products and some chemicals may
> also be dislodged from the surface of the wood upon contact with the skin
>
> Check this link (Consumer Protection Safety Council):
> http://www.cpsc.gov/phth/ccafact.html
>
> Key Points:
> - In June 2001, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
docketed
> a petition by the Environmental Working Group (EWG) and the Healthy
Building
> Network (HBN) to enact a ban of CCA or chromated copper arsenate-treated
> wood for use in playground equipment.
> - Manufacturers of CCA reached a voluntary agreement with EPA to end the
> manufacture of CCA-treated wood for most consumer applications by December
> 31, 2003. EPA has indicated that some stocks of wood treated with CCA
before
> this date might still be found on shelves until mid-2004.
> - Exposures to arsenic in the wood might increase a person's probability
(or
> risk) of developing lung or bladder cancer over their lifetime.
> - An average daily intake of arsenic for a 2-6 year old child ranges from
> about 2.46 µg per day depending upon amounts in diet, air, and soil. From
> the staff's analysis, arsenic exposure in children from contact with
> CCA-treated wood playground structures is estimated to be about 3.5 µg
each
> day that includes a playground visit
>
>
> codepath
>
>
>
>
> "Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Read up and wonder no more:
> >
> > http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
> >
> > FardinA wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> > > deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> > > wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> > > the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> > > cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> > > advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> > > Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> > > and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> > > PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> > > Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> > > How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> > > bad and ugly results.
> >
>
>

Chromated Copper Arsenate

Ingredients:
Chromium (yes, the stuff in the movie "Erin Brokovich")
Copper
Arsenic (poison)

Yum!

I built a deck out of this stuff, before I knew anything about it. As I just
about to drive the last screw in (almost literally), I saw a story on TV
about it. Of course, all lumber dealer's knew the ban was coming but no one
told me (I got mine at a local lumber yard). After I saw that news story, I
figured that it was probably exaggerated a little. So I blew it off. Hell,
it was too late now, I was finished building the damned thing. Then I walked
out back onto my newly finished deck and saw my 2 year old daughter drop a
popsicle on the deck and pick it up and eat (before I could stop her). I
then look over a bit and saw my dog licking up a puddle of melted popsicle.

The fact that this web site is trying to bestow the virtues of CCA makes
their opinions suspect. They suggest its use in garden areas, children's
playsets, etc. There is a reason why it was pull from the market for most
residential use. Even if they did only mention that fact in one sentence
(that I have been able to find) on their entire web site. Of course, they
don't bother to mention 'why' it was pulled or for what uses it was pulled.

Quote (http://www.southernpine.com/technicalinformation2.htm#preservatives):
"After December 31, 2003 CCA will be withdrawn for most residential
consumer-use treated lumber applications."

I know that no one here buys lumber at Home Depot. But if you do, that's
only PT lumber that the one near me carries.

By mid-2004, there should be no more CCA lumber on store shelves in the US.
That's the deadline. The newer (supposedly safer) PT lumber uses a chemical
called Alkaline Copper Quat (ACQ). I'm waiting for that to build my new
privacy fence this summer.


codepath




"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Read up and wonder no more:
>
> http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
>
> FardinA wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> > deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> > wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> > the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> > cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> > advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> > Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> > and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> > PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> > Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> > How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> > bad and ugly results.
>

Check out this link (Environmental Protection Agency):
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/cca_qa.htm

Key Points:
- After machining (cutting, routing, etc), boil your clothes and hands
- Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and is acutely toxic
- Arsenic does leach from CCA-treated wood products and some chemicals may
also be dislodged from the surface of the wood upon contact with the skin

Check this link (Consumer Protection Safety Council):
http://www.cpsc.gov/phth/ccafact.html

Key Points:
- In June 2001, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) docketed
a petition by the Environmental Working Group (EWG) and the Healthy Building
Network (HBN) to enact a ban of CCA or chromated copper arsenate-treated
wood for use in playground equipment.
- Manufacturers of CCA reached a voluntary agreement with EPA to end the
manufacture of CCA-treated wood for most consumer applications by December
31, 2003. EPA has indicated that some stocks of wood treated with CCA before
this date might still be found on shelves until mid-2004.
- Exposures to arsenic in the wood might increase a person's probability (or
risk) of developing lung or bladder cancer over their lifetime.
- An average daily intake of arsenic for a 2-6 year old child ranges from
about 2.46 µg per day depending upon amounts in diet, air, and soil. From
the staff's analysis, arsenic exposure in children from contact with
CCA-treated wood playground structures is estimated to be about 3.5 µg each
day that includes a playground visit


codepath




"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Read up and wonder no more:
>
> http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
>
> FardinA wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> > deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> > wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> > the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> > cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> > advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> > Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> > and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> > PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> > Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> > How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> > bad and ugly results.
>

"Creamy Goodness" <creamy at agbf1942 dot com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


> I waited a year to stain mine as the wood needed to dry out. Looks
> awesome now.
>
We waited about 3 or 4 months for our deck before stainging, but it was
completely exposed to the sun which probably helped dry it a bit quicker.

Pressure wash it well;

when you're completed. With an alkali cleaner, then bleach it. Whick will
remove all the surface traces of any poisons and repellants used.

I seasoned my treated lumber for two years in the weather, stacked and
sticklered before building my deck.

I used rough cut Poplar for my fence, now time to pressure wash the mildew
off all the wood and stain it with some semi transperant stain.

To hell with the neighbor's bitching too!

LOL

Refinish King
"codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chromated Copper Arsenate
>
> Ingredients:
> Chromium (yes, the stuff in the movie "Erin Brokovich")
> Copper
> Arsenic (poison)
>
> Yum!
>
> I built a deck out of this stuff, before I knew anything about it. As I
just
> about to drive the last screw in (almost literally), I saw a story on TV
> about it. Of course, all lumber dealer's knew the ban was coming but no
one
> told me (I got mine at a local lumber yard). After I saw that news story,
I
> figured that it was probably exaggerated a little. So I blew it off. Hell,
> it was too late now, I was finished building the damned thing. Then I
walked
> out back onto my newly finished deck and saw my 2 year old daughter drop a
> popsicle on the deck and pick it up and eat (before I could stop her). I
> then look over a bit and saw my dog licking up a puddle of melted
popsicle.
>
> The fact that this web site is trying to bestow the virtues of CCA makes
> their opinions suspect. They suggest its use in garden areas, children's
> playsets, etc. There is a reason why it was pull from the market for most
> residential use. Even if they did only mention that fact in one sentence
> (that I have been able to find) on their entire web site. Of course, they
> don't bother to mention 'why' it was pulled or for what uses it was
pulled.
>
> Quote
(http://www.southernpine.com/technicalinformation2.htm#preservatives):
> "After December 31, 2003 CCA will be withdrawn for most residential
> consumer-use treated lumber applications."
>
> I know that no one here buys lumber at Home Depot. But if you do, that's
> only PT lumber that the one near me carries.
>
> By mid-2004, there should be no more CCA lumber on store shelves in the
US.
> That's the deadline. The newer (supposedly safer) PT lumber uses a
chemical
> called Alkaline Copper Quat (ACQ). I'm waiting for that to build my new
> privacy fence this summer.
>
>
> codepath
>
>
>
>
> "Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Read up and wonder no more:
> >
> > http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
> >
> > FardinA wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> > > deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> > > wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> > > the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> > > cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> > > advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> > > Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> > > and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> > > PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> > > Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> > > How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> > > bad and ugly results.
> >
>
>

It's a heavy metal poison:

and several women have been arrested in North East Pa, for bumping off their
husbands for tainting their nice bagged lunches with it.

LOL

Refinish King


"codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Check out this link (Environmental Protection Agency):
> http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/cca_qa.htm
>
> Key Points:
> - After machining (cutting, routing, etc), boil your clothes and hands
> - Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and is acutely toxic
> - Arsenic does leach from CCA-treated wood products and some chemicals may
> also be dislodged from the surface of the wood upon contact with the skin
>
> Check this link (Consumer Protection Safety Council):
> http://www.cpsc.gov/phth/ccafact.html
>
> Key Points:
> - In June 2001, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
docketed
> a petition by the Environmental Working Group (EWG) and the Healthy
Building
> Network (HBN) to enact a ban of CCA or chromated copper arsenate-treated
> wood for use in playground equipment.
> - Manufacturers of CCA reached a voluntary agreement with EPA to end the
> manufacture of CCA-treated wood for most consumer applications by December
> 31, 2003. EPA has indicated that some stocks of wood treated with CCA
before
> this date might still be found on shelves until mid-2004.
> - Exposures to arsenic in the wood might increase a person's probability
(or
> risk) of developing lung or bladder cancer over their lifetime.
> - An average daily intake of arsenic for a 2-6 year old child ranges from
> about 2.46 µg per day depending upon amounts in diet, air, and soil. From
> the staff's analysis, arsenic exposure in children from contact with
> CCA-treated wood playground structures is estimated to be about 3.5 µg
each
> day that includes a playground visit
>
>
> codepath
>
>
>
>
> "Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Read up and wonder no more:
> >
> > http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
> >
> > FardinA wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> > > deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> > > wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> > > the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> > > cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> > > advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> > > Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> > > and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> > > PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> > > Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> > > How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> > > bad and ugly results.
> >
>
>

Tom Kohlman wrote:

> Keep in mind that the EPA consists of a bunch of Mother Earth people that
> would have us all riding bicycles, making our own clothes from the wool we
> shear from the sheep in the front yard and eating eggs from the chickens
> (free range of course) in the back yard. They tend to exaggerate things and
> have been known to tinker with statistical models to "prove" their theories
> to get to the results they want (e.g. check out the history of the second
> hand smoke studies that prevent you from enjoying a cigarette or cigar with
> your cocktail in more and more places around the country). There is no
> better example of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (ranked from left to right
> in order of true, less true and even less true).

Yep cause industry has NEVER EVER lied about there products safety or
ingredients. Dude, ya gotta get your info from more places than Limbaugh.
>
> I've used CCA treated wood for years on decks, railings and outdoor benches.
> It was a reasonable solution to a common problem. I was smart enough to
> avoid it on anything that would come in contact with food like picnic table
> tops and such. That was just common sense...I know there are chemicals in
> it and many times the wood was still wet in the working phase and for
> sometime after, most likely forever. Practical solution to that was to
> teach my kids to not eat anything that slipped and hit the ground, whether
> CCA decks, kitchen floor (Mr. Clean has to taste great), lawn (bet those
> herbacides/pestacides will be great for you) or anywhere else. Throw it
> away and go get another one. If there aren't anymore, then they start to
> learn that they shouldn't drop them.

Do you make sure they never run barefoot or play on their hands and
knees too? The reason the treatment is in the wood is to KILL stuff,
i.e. insects, bacteria, etc. that would otherwise destroy or decompose
the wood. The arsenic is not there to prevent erosion. Duh.
>
>
>
>
>
> "codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Check out this link (Environmental Protection Agency):
>>http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/cca_qa.htm
>>
>>Key Points:
>>- After machining (cutting, routing, etc), boil your clothes and hands
>>- Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and is acutely toxic
>>- Arsenic does leach from CCA-treated wood products and some chemicals may
>>also be dislodged from the surface of the wood upon contact with the skin
>>
>>Check this link (Consumer Protection Safety Council):
>>http://www.cpsc.gov/phth/ccafact.html
>>
>>Key Points:
>>- In June 2001, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
>
> docketed
>
>>a petition by the Environmental Working Group (EWG) and the Healthy
>
> Building
>
>>Network (HBN) to enact a ban of CCA or chromated copper arsenate-treated
>>wood for use in playground equipment.
>>- Manufacturers of CCA reached a voluntary agreement with EPA to end the
>>manufacture of CCA-treated wood for most consumer applications by December
>>31, 2003. EPA has indicated that some stocks of wood treated with CCA
>
> before
>
>>this date might still be found on shelves until mid-2004.
>>- Exposures to arsenic in the wood might increase a person's probability
>
> (or
>
>>risk) of developing lung or bladder cancer over their lifetime.
>>- An average daily intake of arsenic for a 2-6 year old child ranges from
>>about 2.46 µg per day depending upon amounts in diet, air, and soil. From
>>the staff's analysis, arsenic exposure in children from contact with
>>CCA-treated wood playground structures is estimated to be about 3.5 µg
>
> each
>
>>day that includes a playground visit
>>
>>
>>codepath
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Read up and wonder no more:
>>>
>>>http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm
>>>
>>>FardinA wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
>>>>deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
>>>>wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
>>>>the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
>>>>cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
>>>>advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
>>>>Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
>>>>and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
>>>>PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
>>>>Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
>>>>How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
>>>>bad and ugly results.
>>>
>>
>
>

FardinA wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> bad and ugly results.

Fine Woodworking (or maybe Fine Homebuilding) did an article a few years
back on this issue. The author returned to a deck he had built a couple
years earlier, took soil samples, and had them tested. In terms of
concentration, the back yard met the criteria for a Superfund site.

So let's say the EPA is overly stringent - do you really want ot
experiment on your kids? I myself am considering Ipe. Ya, now I'm
gonna get grief for destroying the rain forest.

Read up and wonder no more:

http://www.southernpine.com/ptl.htm

FardinA wrote:
> Hi,
> I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
> deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
> wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
> the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
> cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
> advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
> Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
> and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
> PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
> Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
> How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
> bad and ugly results.

THe structural properties of cedar are different than PT pine.
Meaning joist, beam and post spacing will vary between the species.
Span tables usually take this into account and group similar lumber
together. e.g 2x6 joists @ 16" o.c. can span 9'9" using PT, but only
7'9" using cedar.

What may be done is using PT for the structural members and cedar or
redwood for the deck boards, railings, etc. (the parts you're exposed
to).

The idea of waiting to stain PT is to let it dry out. Usually a few
moths does the trick, depending on thickness, exposure and so on. I'd
say 6 months max, but take that with a grain of salt since I can't see
your material.

Don't use Thompsons deck stains.

Renata

On 2 Apr 2004 11:56:57 -0800, [email protected] (FardinA)
wrote:

>Hi,
>I have a question regarding to the type of wood needed for building a
>deck. Looks like most of the folks are in favor of pressure treated
>wood. I know that the PT is resistent to bugs, and lasts longet than
>the other types. Well, that's great. So why other type of woods like
>cedar/readwood are in the market? Can you please tell me about
>advantages/disadvantages of PT and other type of woods?
>Moreover, I have a porch made of PT. The porch is almost 1 year old
>and I like to stain the PT because I don't like the greenish look of
>PT. Somebosy told me that after a year, it would be OK to apply stain.
>Applying stain on fresh PT would result in failure. Is that right?
>How long should I wait till I can apply stain to my PT without seeing
>bad and ugly results.