I'm restoring an English solid mahogany with rosewood veneer antique
box. I'm no expert but I would guess its about 200 years old.
I decided to cannibalise a very messy tray (certainly a later
"garden-shed" addition) from another similar old box, cutting up the
board of the tray to make internal lids for first box.
The tray base looked to me like mahogany, although it was very dirty
and scarred. I guessed maybe 100 years old.
Anyway, now that I've done the operation I'm starting to think the wood
I used may not be mahogany. The grain is a lot longer and more open
than mahogany I'm used to. It's a bit lighter in colour. And most of
all, it has a strong perfumed scent when cut or sanded. A bit like
incense. It's also more flexible than mahogany and really quite easy to
cut.
In short it's a much softer wood but yet sort of looks like mahogany.
Can anyone guess what it is? I've looked at online image databases but
it's very hard to tell from just a picture. I'm thinking of starting
again as I'm wondering if my lid additions detract from the antique
rather than enhance it. The lids really don't seem to fit in at all!
As you can probably tell I'm a complete amateur and would be v grateful
for any help, tips hints etc.
You might be on to something. Following your reply, I've looked at some
Spanish cedar pics and some look just like the mystery wood in
question. These look similar:
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20new%20guinea%20red.htm
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20spanish/cedar,%20spanish%207%20s100%20q60%20web.htm
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20spanish/cedar,%20spanish%20s50%20q60%20plh.htm
The last two are indeed Spanish cedar and the first New Guinea red
cedar. On waxing faint "dirty" black lines appear in the grain, which
looks similar to Spanish cedar.
However, from what I can remember of Cuban cigar boxes, they are made
of a very light (in weight) wood which snaps easily. A bit like a
packing crate or tea chest.
Or is a humidor made of an entirely different sort of wood? Forgive my
ignorance : ) I will go into a tobacconist next time I pass one and
ask.
Also isn't cedar part of the pine family? This wood certainly doesn't
smell or look anything like pine. The fibres are very different from
pine (not as long). After waxing, the wood is a middlish dark brown,
though not as dark or red as mahogany.
The smell is not at all piney but much heavier, much more like perfume.
In fact I think it probably is used in scents as it seems strangely
familiar. My first thought was sandalwood but I had a piece of
sandalwood once and it was almost white and quite soft. This definitely
isn't a light or soft wood though it's pretty easy to cut.
Other than its large grain size it's the perfect sort of wood for
carpentry. Doesn't splinter but easy to to cut. After sanding I put
some wax on it and it just soaked it all up like a sponge. That's when
I realised it wasn't mahogany. I just can't get a gloss on it.
I'm going to get take a picture and post it for you to judge.
I also have another box with mystery wood. It's Anglo-Indian 50-100
years old and really does look exactly like a red mahogany. In fact I'm
99% sure it is mahogany of a sort. But it also has a very strong smell.
This time of insecticide! Very similar to Raid/Baygone roach killer! At
first I thought someone had doused the thing with insecticide but it
isn't that because every time I open the box I get a very strong whiff,
as it seems to accumulate in the closed box! It's also an extremely
hard wood - maybe even harder than normal mahogany - and is very easy
to polish.
ancienthistoryman wrote:
> ...
>
> Anyway, now that I've done the operation I'm starting to think the
wood
> I used may not be mahogany. The grain is a lot longer and more open
> than mahogany I'm used to. It's a bit lighter in colour. And most of
> all, it has a strong perfumed scent when cut or sanded. A bit like
> incense. It's also more flexible than mahogany and really quite easy
to
> cut.
>
> In short it's a much softer wood but yet sort of looks like mahogany.
> Can anyone guess what it is?
Just a guess but it might be Camphor wood. In parts of Asia it is
used for chests the way Eastern Aromatic Red Cedar is used in
North America.
I've only seen one Camphor wood chest (that I am relatively sure
was Camphor wood) and it was covered with carvings which made it
a bit tough to get a real good impression of the grain.
--
FF
Well thanks for all the feedback everyone.
I've now got some pics of the woods in question, which might help
clarify things.
This is the mystery wood, which smells a bit like incense when cut:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/mystery1.jpg
The scan is a bit lighter than the actual wood, but pretty accurate
otherwise on my monitor (I colour corrected it). It's a bit orangey in
hue in fact. Although I have waxed it and there was a bit of colour in
the wax - not much though.
This is the box I'm putting the lids into:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/mystery2.jpg
As you can see, it has a rosewood veneer on the outside - typical i
believe for a Georgian or early Victorian box.
Here's the inside shot with the new lids in place:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/mystery3.jpg
They just don't look smart enough I think. I need something with more
of a gloss, more noble looking. You can also see that the box is made
of solid mahogany, now visible on the inside of the lid. Originally the
lid was covered in paper, with a love-letter flap covering it - but
this was all too perished to be salvageable. I've also waxed all the
inside - sacrilege I know for any antiquarians out there - but I've
decided that this is never going to look like the original (sewing box)
so I might as well have it the way I like it!
Here's a close up of the lids in situ:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/mystery4.jpg
It's also annoying that the grain is running the wrong way on the top
lid! I had to do this as there wasn't enough wood (there are also some
"secret bottoms" below which I replaced) to go round but on reflection
I think that it's a major mistake. To be honest, the question of grain
direction hadn't even occured to me when I was cutting the wood!
I'd be interested to hear a) whether you all agree that this is Spanish
cedar and b) whether you reckon I should start again with a more
suitable wood or maybe even veneer what I've got (I have some mahogany
curl veneer I could use).
Now about that Anglo-Indian box I mentioned that smells of
insecticide...
Here's a picture of the wood:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/solapith1.jpg
Here's the whole box:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/solapith2.jpg
It's 18 inches across
Here's the inside:
http://g_whiting.perso.libello.com/woodid/solapith3.jpg
I had forgotten but somebody had written a note inside saying it was
made in India in 1909 by a Chinaman from "sola pith". As you can see it
has a lovely red colour and a great sheen. It's also not as hard as I
had thought. i think I used Danish oil on this one - the only problem
was that the oil took forever to cure and it's still a bit sticky to
this day (3 years later). I think there must be something in the wood
that impedes the curing process, perhaps the same thing that smells of
insecticide.
As for whether these are wood smells or have been added later...
Personally I think they are from the wood. After all, mahogany has a
very characteristic acrid smell when sanding. I once fixed a very hard
and brittle black African wood candlestick - possibly ebony - and that
smelled so acrid when sawn it gave me a headache. Pine of course has a
really strong smell. And there's sandal and balsam as someone
mentioned. I agree with George's point that these are probably natural
defences for trees against insect attack.
I think I might have made a mistake earlier when I said the second box
was made from "sola pith" so please ignore that comment! I googled
"sola pith" and it turns out it's some kind of reed used in making
ornaments so the inscription must be referring to what had been in the
box (but is no longer)! So maybe it is a sort of mahogany after all.
(I wish I had tried Google before posting that comment...)
If Spanish cedar is related to mahogany that would definitely explain
the mix-up. Although the box I was putting it into is 200 years old
that's not where it originally came from. I found it in another box and
it looked (from the glue and wear) to be early 20th century. Rosewood
and mahogany were the typical English exotic woods of the early 19th
century, I believe, sometimes with ebony stringing. Other than that
native trees to the UK like oak, ash, elm, box, beech, birch and
fruitwoods were used mostly. I have heard of satinwood boxes but I'm
not exactly sure what they look like. I guess there would have been
plenty of other woods knocking around 90 years ago, including Spanish
cedar. I can't say I'm at all familiar with the name, though I have now
learned it is the typical lining for humidors, even in the UK.
I think the outer veneer, which I called rosewood above, is probably
Brazilian rosewood. I used to live there and it's also quite common,
used (solid!) as flooring etc. It has those distinctive dark streaks.
Of course any original reddish colour has faded over time.
As for the Indian one, I think you're right with Indian rosewood.
Good point Clint, and I am starting to wonder about these scents a
little. The only way to test your theory, however, is to sniff some of
the aforementioned ladies underwear. Then take a sample, subject them
to use of your power tools and see if a pleasant odour is released.
Don't blame me if you get arrested though!
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:28:32 GMT, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Right. So why would they use a non-West Indian wood?
What's the geographical distribution of spanish cedar ? It's common
in Cuba (that's what gave it the "Spanish" name after all) and I was
assuming that it would also be found in the more British parts of the
West Indies. It's certainly found in Belize.
"ancienthistoryman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm restoring an English solid mahogany with rosewood veneer antique
> box. I'm no expert but I would guess its about 200 years old.
>
> I decided to cannibalise a very messy tray (certainly a later
> "garden-shed" addition) from another similar old box, cutting up the
> board of the tray to make internal lids for first box.
>
> The tray base looked to me like mahogany, although it was very dirty
> and scarred. I guessed maybe 100 years old.
>
> Anyway, now that I've done the operation I'm starting to think the wood
> I used may not be mahogany. The grain is a lot longer and more open
> than mahogany I'm used to. It's a bit lighter in colour. And most of
> all, it has a strong perfumed scent when cut or sanded. A bit like
> incense. It's also more flexible than mahogany and really quite easy to
> cut.
Spanish cedar? Does it smell like the humidor at your tobacconist?
"ancienthistoryman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You might be on to something. Following your reply, I've looked at some
> Spanish cedar pics and some look just like the mystery wood in
> question. These look similar:
>
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20new%20guinea%20red.htm
>
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20spanish/cedar,%20spanish%207%20s100%20q60%20web.htm
>
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cedar,%20spanish/cedar,%20spanish%20s50%20q60%20plh.htm
>
> The last two are indeed Spanish cedar and the first New Guinea red
> cedar. On waxing faint "dirty" black lines appear in the grain, which
> looks similar to Spanish cedar.
SNIP
Cedar is loaded with insecticide - "natural," of course - and fungicide.
That's what you smell. In common naming, it's a big family, but most of the
members are adopted, sharing only a distinctive odor with genuine Cedrus
spp. All native US "cedars" aren't.
Your Indian piece is not likely to be mahogany if built there, of course.
Better woods available. Some temperate woods have resistant heartwood, but
as tropical woods are in conflict with the insects, bacteria and fungi of
their environment 24/7 - 365, they do it best or perish. That's why they
have such extractive-loaded hearts, and such a variety of oils and odors.
"ancienthistoryman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think I might have made a mistake earlier when I said the second box
> was made from "sola pith" so please ignore that comment! I googled
> "sola pith" and it turns out it's some kind of reed used in making
> ornaments so the inscription must be referring to what had been in the
> box (but is no longer)! So maybe it is a sort of mahogany after all.
>
> (I wish I had tried Google before posting that comment...)
>
Thanks for reminding the others that the piece in question was not from a
200 yr box. Age and place of manufacture is going to tell you things, I
should think. Check the trade going on at the time, and you might be able
to eliminate some woods. I imagine that the craftsmen in England were
willing to pay for dunnage coming back from the empire, but not at the price
of mahogany, which would have been valuable enough to be a cargo in itself.
West or East Indies woods should be more common than South American.
ancienthistoryman wrote:
snip
> Anyway, now that I've done the operation I'm starting to think the wood
> I used may not be mahogany. The grain is a lot longer and more open
> than mahogany I'm used to. It's a bit lighter in colour. And most of
> all, it has a strong perfumed scent when cut or sanded. A bit like
> incense. It's also more flexible than mahogany and really quite easy to
> cut.
more snip
Check out sandalwood and see if that looks like it.
Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/
You mention these scents throughout the thread, and my first thought was
"Are these natural scents, or are they man-made?". For example, it's my
understanding that it's common for ladies to put a little perfumed sachet in
with their lingerie to make it smell nice. If that was done for an extended
period of time, would that scent come out when the wood was cut? As well,
as far as the insecticide smell, couldn't that be mothballs, or something
else?
Just a thought or two.
Clint
"ancienthistoryman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm restoring an English solid mahogany with rosewood veneer antique
> box. I'm no expert but I would guess its about 200 years old.
>
> I decided to cannibalise a very messy tray (certainly a later
> "garden-shed" addition) from another similar old box, cutting up the
> board of the tray to make internal lids for first box.
>
> The tray base looked to me like mahogany, although it was very dirty
> and scarred. I guessed maybe 100 years old.
>
> Anyway, now that I've done the operation I'm starting to think the wood
> I used may not be mahogany. The grain is a lot longer and more open
> than mahogany I'm used to. It's a bit lighter in colour. And most of
> all, it has a strong perfumed scent when cut or sanded. A bit like
> incense. It's also more flexible than mahogany and really quite easy to
> cut.
>
> In short it's a much softer wood but yet sort of looks like mahogany.
> Can anyone guess what it is? I've looked at online image databases but
> it's very hard to tell from just a picture. I'm thinking of starting
> again as I'm wondering if my lid additions detract from the antique
> rather than enhance it. The lids really don't seem to fit in at all!
>
> As you can probably tell I'm a complete amateur and would be v grateful
> for any help, tips hints etc.
>
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:28:32 GMT, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Right. So why would they use a non-West Indian wood?
>
> What's the geographical distribution of spanish cedar ? It's common
> in Cuba (that's what gave it the "Spanish" name after all) and I was
> assuming that it would also be found in the more British parts of the
> West Indies. It's certainly found in Belize.
Natively the West Indies and most of South America from Mexico to Argentina.
It's also now found in American Samoa, Federated States of Micronesia,
Fiji, Galapagos Islands, Hawaii, New Caledonia, Tonga, and South Africa,
and is considered to be invasive.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:25:50 GMT, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The thing in my mind against the mystery wood being Spanish cedar was
>> that you said it was made in England some 200 years ago. Seems odd
>> to me that it would have been used there and then.
>
> Prime time for West Indian high-end hardwoods being used for English
> cabinetry. The best stuff of the period is mahogany - the real stuff,
> and in superb grades.
Right. So why would they use a non-West Indian wood?
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:25:50 GMT, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The thing in my mind against the mystery wood being Spanish cedar was
>that you said it was made in England some 200 years ago. Seems odd to
>me that it would have been used there and then.
Prime time for West Indian high-end hardwoods being used for English
cabinetry. The best stuff of the period is mahogany - the real stuff,
and in superb grades.
ancienthistoryman wrote:
> I'd be interested to hear a) whether you all agree that this is
> Spanish cedar
It certainly looks/sounds like it. A couple of points...
1. Spanish cedar isn't a cedar at all...it is related to mahogany
2. It is native to and much used in Central & South America.
3. It is the wood of choice in many Latin areas. When I was living in
Mexico, if someone of wealth wanted a new garage door it was always
Spanish cedar. OTOH, true mahogany wasn't much used except for things
like scaffolds.
The thing in my mind against the mystery wood being Spanish cedar was
that you said it was made in England some 200 years ago. Seems odd to
me that it would have been used there and then.
Googling gives lots of info and images, might help you.
___________________
> Now about that Anglo-Indian box I mentioned that smells of
> insecticide...
The photo of the wood itself looks like sissoo (Indian rosewood) but the
box photos look too light and red. Here's a good sissoo photo...
http://tinyurl.com/6pprs
Another common Indian wood is sheesham. Don't know much about it except
that it is darker than sissoo.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico