I KNOW this is a woodworking site. I also know some of you appreciate
this kinda nonsense.
For that little maintenance on that Saturday afternoon under that
shady tree in the back-yard.
Give that little kanutin valve a tweak with the giggle-pin and way you
go.
I just had to share this with a few of you dorkers.
Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. (Check those
dual intercoolers on either side.)
Tested very well for 24 hours at LeMans.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Horsies.jpg
On May 19, 7:54 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pretty cool, almost surprised that it was not in the W12 configuration
> however that probably would not have left enough mass in the block to hold
> up as a diesel.
They're re-thinking the push on that W-12 concept. The buying public
if afraid of its complexities. Besides, it doesn't do much that a well-
designed V-8 won't do.
BTW... a fellow who had his (early 70-s) Buick GS 454 ci sniffed at
the polution control check-up found his was running cleaner than most
of the new-fangled cars. Go figgur.
On May 19, 6:16 am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 18 May 2007 20:56:55 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. (Check those
> >dual intercoolers on either side.)
> >Tested very well for 24 hours at LeMans.
>
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Horsies.jpg
>
> Very cool!
>
> Diesels are starting to get installed in light aircraft, as well as
> race cars.
My daughter runs a diesel VW. A friend runs a 5-cyl turbo in his Benz
wagon... both great touring cars. We drove that 300TD from Rochester
NY to Montreal and back and you'd never-ever know that was an oil
burner. Quiet, smooth as silk. I'm a believer.
A bit smelly perhaps. That famous knocking sound of a diesel might be
a bit disconcerting whilst idling along a runway though..<G>... and
then that puff of smoke on take-off...
On May 20, 6:41 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Bio-diesel has no dye, so... But the car does smell like fries! <G>
Easily offset by adding a little oil of primrose or raspberry nectar.
Salt and vinegar are optional.
Somehow, I can't get my head around feeding a 50,000 dollar Benz
vegetable oil. Next thing we know, PETA is wanting to replace the
seats with wicker. It is smart to mind the environment, but I like
twin turbos and Sunoco 94 with octane booster. IOW.. stay the hell out
of my car.
I still think diesels are cool. I'd like a diesel Harley. WTF not?
They're having some serious image problems already.
Fri, May 18, 2007, 8:56pm (EDT-3) [email protected] (Robatoy) doth
posteth:
<snip> Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. <snip>
It's OK, but I'd like to find one of these, so I could put it in a
Jeep.
http://www.wsrhs.org/pict/motora.jpg
JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan
On Sat, 19 May 2007 21:03:01 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
<[email protected]> wrote:
>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Diesels have added safety factors of no carb ice, no electrical
>> system, and less water in fuel issues, so I'm surprised it took so
>> long.
>
>Not quite true that the diesels don't require electrical in planes,
>as shown by an accident involving a Diamond DA-42 in Speyer
>Germany earlier this year.
>
>The DA-42 has an computerized electronic fuel control system. Kill
>the electrical system and the engines stop right now.
That was a FADEC issue and not necessarily related to the fact that
the engine was a diesel, no? I was referring to the lack of magnetos
and plugs when compared to gasoline burners.
I read the DA42 accident report, and it seemed that if the engines had
manual controls, ala an experimental Cessna diesel conversion I've
been hearing about, propulsion power would have been available.
No juice will kill any FADEC operated engine.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On May 19, 7:54 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Pretty cool, almost surprised that it was not in the W12 configuration
>> however that probably would not have left enough mass in the block to
>> hold
>> up as a diesel.
>
> They're re-thinking the push on that W-12 concept. The buying public
> if afraid of its complexities. Besides, it doesn't do much that a well-
> designed V-8 won't do.
The big advantage to to the W8 over a V8 is that it is pretty compact and
fits into a smaller space. IIRC some of the VW Passats had W8's
>
> BTW... a fellow who had his (early 70-s) Buick GS 454 ci sniffed at
> the polution control check-up found his was running cleaner than most
> of the new-fangled cars. Go figgur.
That is something to think about alright. LOL.. Probably running very lean.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I KNOW this is a woodworking site. I also know some of you appreciate
> this kinda nonsense.
>
> For that little maintenance on that Saturday afternoon under that
> shady tree in the back-yard.
> Give that little kanutin valve a tweak with the giggle-pin and way you
> go.
> I just had to share this with a few of you dorkers.
>
> Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. (Check those
> dual intercoolers on either side.)
> Tested very well for 24 hours at LeMans.
>
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Horsies.jpg
>
Pretty cool, almost surprised that it was not in the W12 configuration
however that probably would not have left enough mass in the block to hold
up as a diesel.
Thanks for sharing.
On Sun, 20 May 2007 13:11:35 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
>And, it goes without saying of course, that you write a check to the
>government for the road tax on each gallon of that veggie oil that you
>burn. Otherwise, isn't it sort of like using off-road diesel fuel in
>highway vehicles? The PTB really frown on that practice.
We've got a bunch of bio-diesels in my area, including a few private
busses. They get lots of press coverage with no complaints from the
tax people so far.
On 19 May 2007 11:40:34 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>A bit smelly perhaps. That famous knocking sound of a diesel might be
>a bit disconcerting whilst idling along a runway though..<G>... and
>then that puff of smoke on take-off...
They run on Jet-A (kerosene), so they're not too bad, but I've only
seen one. <G>
Diesels have added safety factors of no carb ice, no electrical
system, and less water in fuel issues, so I'm surprised it took so
long. I would imagine that they could also run higher prop pitches at
lower RPM, which would result in a quieter plane. Lots of noise comes
from supersonic propeller tips.
Sat, May 19, 2007, 3:04pm [email protected] (B=A0A=A0R=A0R=A0Y)
doth sayeth:
They run on Jet-A (kerosene), so they're not too bad, but I've only seen
one. <G>
Diesels have added safety factors of no carb ice, no electrical system,
<snip>
Unless you've got a very small, hand started, Diesel, it's pretty
much a given you've got some type of an electrical syste there
somewhere. How about absolutely NO electrical system needed if so
desired (starting with only a match possible), and the capability to run
on about ANY burnale fuel?
http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/ThingsWings/Besler.htm
JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan
[email protected] (J T) wrote:
> Unless you've got a very small, hand started, Diesel, it's pretty
> much a given you've got some type of an electrical syste there
> somewhere.
Actually there are several ways to start a diesel, including wind up
spring and pneumatic, especially larger diesels such as those found on
ore boats in the Great Lakes and sea going ships which usually use
pneumatic.
Once you get a diesel running, there are only two (2) ways to stop it.
You either cut off the fuel supply or the air supply or both.
Don't do it right and that puppy can consume it's own lube oil which
usually yields very expensive results.
Lew
Sun, May 20, 2007, 10:45pm (EDT+4) [email protected]
(Lew=A0Hodgett) doth sayeth:
Actually there are several ways to start a diesel, <snip>
Well, actually, I knew there "were" other ways, just not sure what.
Which was why I weasld and said "pretty much of a given", instead of
saying "a given". Hehehe Pneumatic I did know. But to nit pick I know
that at least one of those "other" systems call for electric.
JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan
On Sun, 20 May 2007 16:16:12 -0400, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>
> Unless you've got a very small, hand started, Diesel, it's pretty
>much a given you've got some type of an electrical syste there
>somewhere.
Not once it's running, vs. magnetos and plugs on the gas engine.
Gasoline powered piston aircraft typically have multiple electric
systems.
The "airframe" electrical system (possibly one of several) includes
alternators or generators, batteries, electric items like radios,
lights, ice protection, and electric fuel boost pumps, and the engine
starter. This can all be shut off with a master switch independent of
propulsion. If you turn the key to start the engine with the master
off, the starter won't crank, but you'll look like an idiot. <G>
The "propulsion" electrical system includes the mags and plugs. You
can actually shut off the master electrics off in flight with no
effect on a manually controlled engine. It'll keep cranking along, and
you can still operate the throttle(s) mixture, and carb heat controls.
There are usually two magnetos powering one plug in each cylinder for
two plugs per. This is actually for performance reasons, not
reliability. Running the engine on one of the two magnetos will
result in ~75-125 RPM drop. This doesn't sound significant to car
guys, but it can make a difference during level flight near max gross
weight and a big one during climb.
I'd put glow plugs and starters on a diesel into the "airframe"
category, because it's no longer needed once the engine starts. The
diesel powered craft that Frank mentioned in regards to a crash had
FADEC, Full Authority Digital Engine Control, which allows a computer
to maintain mixture and other engine settings (kinda' like a modern
car), and facilitates throttle control with an autopilot. When FADEC
fails hard, so often does the propulsion, but this isn't a diesel only
issue, as it can happen with gasoline pistons or turbines that employ
it.
In reliability speak, failing to start is very minor compared to
failing in flight, as it's easier to "not fly" if you're already on
the ground. <G> The guys in the crash jump started a dead
twin-engine airplane only to have the airframe electrics quit in
flight, taking the digitally controlled engines out as well.
Sun, May 20, 2007, 10:34pm (EDT+4) [email protected]
(B=A0A=A0R=A0R=A0Y) doth sayeth:
Not once it's running, vs. magnetos and plugs on the gas engine. <snip>
I wasn't counting "after" it was runnng, but to "get" it runing.
You normally need electric to get those plugs glowing, and an electric
starter to turn the thing over.
JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan
On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:16:55 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>It could be done without the FADEC (as in the cessna case), but getting
>it approved by the FAA may prove to be a bigger problem than its worth.
Have you heard or read what the FAA's concerns were without FADEC?
It's not like a screwy or dead FADEC system has _never_ shut down a
turbine or gasoline piston engine. You'd think the simplicity of the
diesel would be a plus.
I know the Cessna was flying around as an experimental, working toward
certification and a possible STC.
On Sun, 20 May 2007 16:15:19 GMT, "John E." <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Your friend should investigate modifying his Benz to run on vegetable oil.
>Gets rid of the diesel smell and cuts the fuel bill down considerably.
>
>Since buying and modifying my own 300TD we've paid for maybe 2 tanks of fuel
>tops.
>
>And that was only because we took it on a road trip and didn't want to carry
>all the extra veggie oil. With some better advance planning we could have
>easily arranged to buy either new or filtered veggie oil along the way.
>
>Nice thing about the modification is that I can still run petro diesel or
>bio-diesel if need be.
>
>John E.
>
And, it goes without saying of course, that you write a check to the
government for the road tax on each gallon of that veggie oil that you
burn. Otherwise, isn't it sort of like using off-road diesel fuel in
highway vehicles? The PTB really frown on that practice.
B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> Diesels have added safety factors of no carb ice, no electrical
> system, and less water in fuel issues, so I'm surprised it took so
> long.
Not quite true that the diesels don't require electrical in planes,
as shown by an accident involving a Diamond DA-42 in Speyer
Germany earlier this year.
The DA-42 has an computerized electronic fuel control system. Kill
the electrical system and the engines stop right now. What happened
in the above accident was that, essentially, someone left the lights
on. The pilots got it started by jump starting both engines. At
take-off time, the battery (or batteries) were still pretty flat, and
when they brought the landing gear up, the surge was enough to kill
the fuel control computer and flame out both engines. Both
Thilert (maker of the engines) and Diamond are looking at the problem.
And diesels in planes aren't necessarily new. Jumo made diesel engines
for some of the larger Messerschmits during WWII. The were heavy
though. Its only with modern metallurgy that diesels are starting to
be made light enough for practical use in planes.
--
Frank 'propeller head' Stutzman
B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>>The DA-42 has an computerized electronic fuel control system. Kill
>>the electrical system and the engines stop right now.
>
> That was a FADEC issue and not necessarily related to the fact that
> the engine was a diesel, no? I was referring to the lack of magnetos
> and plugs when compared to gasoline burners.
>
> I read the DA42 accident report, and it seemed that if the engines had
> manual controls, ala an experimental Cessna diesel conversion I've
> been hearing about, propulsion power would have been available.
>
> No juice will kill any FADEC operated engine.
True, strictly speaking it was the control system that failed and thereby
killed the engines. However, as I understand it (and I could well be
wrong) Thilert was unable to get the engines FAA certified without the
FADEC.
It could be done without the FADEC (as in the cessna case), but getting
it approved by the FAA may prove to be a bigger problem than its worth.
--
Frank Stutzman
On Sun, 20 May 2007 15:58:38 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
>Don't recall ever seeing a checkpoint with a
>cop dipsticking diesel vehicles to see if the fuel was red.
Pretty common in rural parts of the UK or Ireland. They catch a fair few
too. Remember that we pay nearly $2 / litre for road fuel.
About 10 years ago they stopped selling red petrol, supposedly because
of lack of demand, but actually because of pressure to avoid this tax
dodging.
On Sun, 20 May 2007 15:58:38 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
>
>Maybe the tax agents are more diligent in heavy agricultural areas. A
>lot of farmers who run diesel equipment will buy off-road (red dyed)
>fuel in bulk sans fuel tax. It's awfully tempting to pull the diesel
>truck up to the farm tank and fill-er-up with the cheaper fuel. Just
>don't get caught with red fuel in an over-the-road vehicle. The
>authorities tend to get nasty about it.
>
>Hard to enforce, 'though. Don't recall ever seeing a checkpoint with a
>cop dipsticking diesel vehicles to see if the fuel was red.
Actually, there tough on that here, as well! My BIL owns a farm and
my buddy is a heating oil dealer. Both get sticked on a regular
basis. In the case of the fuel oil guy, he's had DMV people stop his
trucks, and they've visited his truck yard in person. The farmer has
been sticked at agricultural auctions and fairs, but never on the road
or at the farm.
Our DMV has also been known to stop trailered construction equipment
to stick the tow vehicle.
Bio-diesel has no dye, so... But the car does smell like fries! <G>
On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:31:31 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>We've got a bunch of bio-diesels in my area, including a few private
>busses. They get lots of press coverage with no complaints from the
>tax people so far.
Maybe the tax agents are more diligent in heavy agricultural areas. A
lot of farmers who run diesel equipment will buy off-road (red dyed)
fuel in bulk sans fuel tax. It's awfully tempting to pull the diesel
truck up to the farm tank and fill-er-up with the cheaper fuel. Just
don't get caught with red fuel in an over-the-road vehicle. The
authorities tend to get nasty about it.
Hard to enforce, 'though. Don't recall ever seeing a checkpoint with a
cop dipsticking diesel vehicles to see if the fuel was red. Maybe
there's a "probable cause" search aspect there. But I have been
through driver's license/DUI checkpoints and it seems that would be
much the same. Maybe an ROI thing.
On 18 May 2007 20:56:55 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. (Check those
>dual intercoolers on either side.)
>Tested very well for 24 hours at LeMans.
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Horsies.jpg
Very cool!
Diesels are starting to get installed in light aircraft, as well as
race cars.
Your friend should investigate modifying his Benz to run on vegetable oil.
Gets rid of the diesel smell and cuts the fuel bill down considerably.
Since buying and modifying my own 300TD we've paid for maybe 2 tanks of fuel
tops.
And that was only because we took it on a road trip and didn't want to carry
all the extra veggie oil. With some better advance planning we could have
easily arranged to buy either new or filtered veggie oil along the way.
Nice thing about the modification is that I can still run petro diesel or
bio-diesel if need be.
John E.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On May 19, 6:16 am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 18 May 2007 20:56:55 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Yup. It is a diesel. 650HP, approx 1000 ft/lbs of torque. (Check those
> > >dual intercoolers on either side.)
> > >Tested very well for 24 hours at LeMans.
> >
> > >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Horsies.jpg
> >
> > Very cool!
> >
> > Diesels are starting to get installed in light aircraft, as well as
> > race cars.
>
> My daughter runs a diesel VW. A friend runs a 5-cyl turbo in his Benz
> wagon... both great touring cars. We drove that 300TD from Rochester
> NY to Montreal and back and you'd never-ever know that was an oil
> burner. Quiet, smooth as silk. I'm a believer.
>
> A bit smelly perhaps. That famous knocking sound of a diesel might be
> a bit disconcerting whilst idling along a runway though..<G>... and
> then that puff of smoke on take-off...
>
On Sat, 19 May 2007 17:36:12 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Don't they also have glow plugs or some thing like that to aid in starting a
>cold engine?
>
Yes.
"Frank Stutzman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Diesels have added safety factors of no carb ice, no electrical
>> system, and less water in fuel issues, so I'm surprised it took so
>> long.
>
> Not quite true that the diesels don't require electrical in planes,
> as shown by an accident involving a Diamond DA-42 in Speyer
> Germany earlier this year.
>
> The DA-42 has an computerized electronic fuel control system. Kill
> the electrical system and the engines stop right now. What happened
> in the above accident was that, essentially, someone left the lights
> on.
Don't they also have glow plugs or some thing like that to aid in starting a
cold engine?