THE TEST:
SawStop provided us with a demo cartridge and we tested the SawStop on
Thursday, January 13th.
I cut a variety of materials such as: wood, plywood, melamine, acrylic,
mdf. etc. I enabled the bypass and cut aluminum, green treated and
stapled pine. When in bypass mode you will get a code in flashing
lights indicating whether the SawStop would have triggered. The lights
indicated that the SawStop WOULD NOT have been triggered by cutting the
green treated or the stapled pine, so I proceeded to cut them with the
SawStop on.
I then got out the drumsticks and cut one in bypass mode. It's amazing
how easy it is to cut through a drumstick, pretty gory and except for
the lack of blood, not unlike a shop accident. I've always thought of
doing this during shop orientations, but decided that it could encourage
sophomoric actions (the last thing they need is encouragement).
I'd been asked by some rec.woodworkers to push the stock rapidly into
the blade in order to get an idea how much damage would be done in the
case of a slip or similar accident.
So to test the SawStop I jammed the drumstick into the blade nearly as
fast is I could, the blade promptly disappeared and with virtually no
resistance I proceeded to IMPALE the chicken leg onto the riving knife
(oh the shame).
RESULTS:
SawStop works: the blade definitely stopped and definitely dropped
(observers indicated that this happened too fast to discern). Since the
drumstick was impaled on the riving knife, I have NO IDEA, how much
damage the drumstick sustained from the blade before it's encounter with
the riving knife. As you can imagine this was a little embarrassing.
Here we've spent $6000 on saws that "save fingers", and I've got a
chicken leg skewered by a chunk of steel, not so impressive.
Coincidentally, the SawStop went off again the first time we tilted the
blade as we had neglected to provide adequate clearance for the aluminum
fence on the sliding table. DOH!!! Steven and/or David: any chance of
getting a replacement brake cartridge for our whoops? Again observers
were dumbfounded. Results: a tiny nick on the crosscutting fence.
I was expecting a significant jolt/vibration/lurch of the saw when the
SawStop was triggered, but aside from a solid THUD and the
"disappearance" of blade, there are little dramatics.
MORE IMPRESSIONS
My initial impressions (inserted below) are still pretty valid.
These are very nice saws.
They are smooth, quiet, and basically a pleasure to use, definitely
comparable+ to a PM66.
To date our students have had few problems making the switch from the
unisaws.
The riving knife is great!: easy to change, never in the way and
effectively keeps stock going in a straight line.
I sanded the gloss off of the extension tables and they are ok now.
After 15-20 brake cartridge changes it is pretty second nature (this is
just an issue of learning where the "locating pins" are).
Arbor nuts/washers drop directly into the hose attached to the "dust
shroud" we have enough suction to move the nuts to the most
inaccessible part of the DC pipe. I suppose it's time for an access port.
We LOVE the paddle switch, a machine has never been so easy to shut off.
The "power disconnect switch" however is on the bottom back corner of
the left side of the cabinet and is a pain to get to with the sliding
table attached to the saw, oh well.
Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
such a system. Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
should be interesting to watch.
--
INITIAL IMPRESSIONS
quality -
These machines seem as well built as the unisaw that we bought 4 years
ago(not saying much really).
An extension table flatness problem has been mentioned, but our tables
and rt wings are flat within .010".
We never put on the left wings since we installed sliding tables, so I
cannot speak to that issue.
The trunnions, arbor shaft, bearings, and even the main table are
beefier than comparable parts on a unisaw and I think even a pm 66.
The polished handwheels are big and heavy with very nicely spinning
cranks.
Height & angle adjustment are smooth and easy (of course the machines
are brand new, so they better be) .
I'd like a polished tabletop, and these are just ground, but that will
make the first scratches less painful.
The machines are smoother and quieter than the last unisaw was when new.
A nickel sits on edge on the tabletop from start up through cutting 8/4
maple through shut down.
Initial indications are that these machines are well made. - time will tell.
design -
There is alot going on inside of these saws.
I like the linear (rather than arc) raising action, it seems much more
intuitive even if more complicated.
A gas spring supports the arbor and assists blade raising.
The splitter/blade guard/riving knife is EXCELLENT - easy to change,
easy to adjust, and wedded to blade height like it should be.
The blade guard itself is only about 1-1/4" wide and contoured to "hug"
the blade- much less obtrusive than traditional guards.
We will likely ALWAYS use the riving knife and the overhead blade
guard. I expect significantly fewer kickbacks as a result of the
"invisible" riving knife.
The brake cartridge is not the easiest thing to change- but it will
probably become easier as we do it.
The extension table is gloss black laminate. Black? Gloss? Can you say
glare? We will probably start with sanding out the gloss, then get rid
of the black if it is still too annoying. Sawstop took the color theme
WAY too far here.
I look forward to seeing how the DC shroud works, but this is an arbor
nutsucker waiting to happen.
What happens to the dust that gets past the DC shroud, how much dust
will build up inside the cabinet, how hard will it be to get out?
If the DC shroud is effective, it should keep all of the other parts
cleaner for smooth operation and less wear.
The large access door should allow enough access to service the saw, but
it's under the extension table, so it still won't be easy.
The belt access door seems appropriate, not sure about the single
splined belt - seems a bit light.
The bump switch is well located and a good size, after not much use, we
should be able to easily shut off the saw, but it will be a while before
we stop doing so inadvertently.
The arbor/arbor nut wrenches are WAY TOO BIG, this will encourage
overtightening and our ARBORS will be STRIPPED in no time. Are you
reading this Steve?
The fence is a biesmeyer clone - faces are replaceable with "keyhole
slots" - this is ok, but I don't really feel that they are flat/secure
with no way to tighten them.
Rare earth magnets on the fence lever and dust shroud door are nice
details, as is the "soft" fence handle.
The "power disconnect switch" is on the rear of the left side of the
cabinet (beneath our sliding table) this is too hard to get to for
routine blade changes etc...
In order to get inside the cabinet to change the brake/make adjustments,
the throat opening is larger than a unisaw's. This is ok access-wise,
but having less of a smooth, flat tabletop can be problematic.
The process to "by-pass" the sawstop mechanism must be done each time
the saw started in by-pass.- a pain if we're cutting a bun of aluminum
all day.
issues-
We occasionally used 8 1/4" thin kerf (3/64") blades for slotting and
making scale lumber - sawstop requires 10" blades or 8" dadoes.
Hmmm, if we use the dado brake and an 8-1/4" blade...
We need to explain to 500 college students why and how the saws are
different.
Gloss black extension table?
Separate arbor nut/washer invites droppage into dust collection and
"washerless" re-installation. (We had welded a washer to a nut to
eliminate this on unisaws)
I have to get rid of 2 old unisaws, 1 jet sliding table and 1 excalibur
bladeguard.
The height of the back fence rail makes it impossible to mount a flush
outfeed table (same as biesmeyer). I re-drilled and lowered, now 1 of
the doors doesn't open past he rail, arggggh.
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> It may not be our business, but it is hard to commit that
> much money to a brand new company without having
> some information and/or evidence that it is likely to be
> around for more than a year or so.
Ever start a new business? Sure, we'll buy from you when youhave a track
record, but not just yet. Good thing someone took a chance and bought that
first Studebaker or no telling how they would have wound up.
My first computer was a Texas Instruments TI-4A. Bought that because I knew
they would be around to support it down the road.
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:22 -0600, CALA Workshop <[email protected]> wrote:
> RESULTS:
> SawStop works: the blade definitely stopped and definitely dropped
> (observers indicated that this happened too fast to discern). Since the
> drumstick was impaled on the riving knife, I have NO IDEA, how much
> damage the drumstick sustained from the blade before it's encounter with
> the riving knife.
That's too bad. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of a test.
> Coincidentally, the SawStop went off again the first time we tilted the
> blade as we had neglected to provide adequate clearance for the aluminum
> fence on the sliding table. DOH!!! Steven and/or David: any chance of
> getting a replacement brake cartridge for our whoops? Again observers
> were dumbfounded. Results: a tiny nick on the crosscutting fence.
Was this while it was running, or off? If the latter, why would it trigger
if the saw isn't running?
> I sanded the gloss off of the extension tables and they are ok now.
> After 15-20 brake cartridge changes it is pretty second nature (this is
> just an issue of learning where the "locating pins" are).
How much are these things?
> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
> such a system.
Yeah, there's probably some litigious bastard who would do such a
thing. Pity, that. Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
> should be interesting to watch.
I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
>> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
>> such a system.
>
> Yeah, there's probably some litigious bastard who would do such a
> thing. Pity, that.
No, the pity is that they were too cheap to put a safety device on their
machines that provides better safety than anything that has ever been
offered. But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with their
ability to make a profit...NOT!
> Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
> SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years ago"
you would have it by now, huh?
>> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
>> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
>> should be interesting to watch.
>
> I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
Why, so you can piss and moan some more?
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:28:02 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
>>> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
>>> such a system.
>>
>> Yeah, there's probably some litigious bastard who would do such a
>> thing. Pity, that.
>
> No, the pity is that they were too cheap to put a safety device on their
> machines that provides better safety than anything that has ever been
> offered.
And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
before.
> But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with their
> ability to make a profit...NOT!
I never said such a thing. It's an interesting concept, and it might
even work. But threatening a lawsuit on people who don't use something
that isn't able to be ordered is a bit stupid.
>> Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
>> SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
> Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years ago"
> you would have it by now, huh?
Hard to say, Ted. Why the personal insult? Have they shipped more than
the first batch of demo units yet?
>>> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
>>> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
>>> should be interesting to watch.
>>
>> I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
>
> Why, so you can piss and moan some more?
Because it might actually have some merit, and if I could actually
buy one of the damn things, if it works, I might do so. But not if
they continue blowing smoke and taking a lawyer-ish approach rather
than an engineer-ish approach.
What's your relationship with SawStop, if any, Ted?
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:45:58 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2005 16:33:42 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
>>before.
>
> You have a point. At the same time, you must have had the
> experience of ordering something and finding out after it hasn't
> shown up for a month or two that it is "on backorder," or there
> is a "shipment coming in soon," etc.
Yup. A backorder is fine, if there's an expected delivery date
attached to it.
> If it is true that they have
> delivered a thousand saws already, I think that the "pre-order"
> is a reflection of honesty by the company, or a failure to update
> the web site.
I don't know of any more than the first batch of 49 demo units going
out. Maybe someone does.
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:24:48 -0600, CALA Workshop <[email protected]> wrote:
> The blade lost a couple of teeth when removed from the brake cartridge.
So, it's wrecked.
> Other than that it didn't look too bad.
Right.
> Our saws ARE NOT "demo" machines. I believe ours were in the 60's
> shipped out of production, not pre-production. That was at the end of
> December.
How many have they shipped? And why are they so closed-mouthed about
production volumes?
> Sawstop is a exponential improvement over a bladeguard in the garage
> rafters, the storage room, or the trash.
Except that I can have a bladeguard today if I choose to.
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
> before.
If they changed the wording on their website to "order" instead of
"pre-order," would that make a difference in your obsession?
>> But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with their
>> ability to make a profit...NOT!
> I never said such a thing. It's an interesting concept, and it might
> even work. But threatening a lawsuit on people who don't use something
> that isn't able to be ordered is a bit stupid.
Who threatened a lawsuit?
>>> Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
>>> SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
>> Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years
>> ago" you would have it by now, huh?
> Hard to say, Ted. Why the personal insult? Have they shipped more than
> the first batch of demo units yet?
What personal insult? Just fact...
>>>> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
>>>> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
>>>> should be interesting to watch.
>>> I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
>> Why, so you can piss and moan some more?
> Because it might actually have some merit, and if I could actually
> buy one of the damn things, if it works, I might do so. But not if
> they continue blowing smoke and taking a lawyer-ish approach rather
> than an engineer-ish approach.
Meantime, all you do is take the peanut gallery-ish approach...
> What's your relationship with SawStop, if any, Ted?
Zip, zero, zilch, nada...and for the slow ones...NONE!
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> If it is true that they have
>> delivered a thousand saws already, I think that the "pre-order"
>> is a reflection of honesty by the company, or a failure to update
>> the web site.
>
> I don't know of any more than the first batch of 49 demo units going
> out. Maybe someone does.
People like you cannot differentiate between a simple number like 49, and
949...it won't make a difference how many they send out, will it Dave?
There just ain't no pleasin' a guy like you.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:03:17 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
>> before.
>
> If they changed the wording on their website to "order" instead of
> "pre-order," would that make a difference in your obsession?
Obsession? But sure, that would change it from being something I
can't buy if I wanted to, to something I *can* buy if I wanted to.
Do you see the distinction there, Ted, and how it's rather
significant?
>>> But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with their
>>> ability to make a profit...NOT!
>> I never said such a thing. It's an interesting concept, and it might
>> even work. But threatening a lawsuit on people who don't use something
>> that isn't able to be ordered is a bit stupid.
> Who threatened a lawsuit?
The context you switched, where someone said it was just a matter of
time before someone sues Delta or whoever for not putting this on
their saws.
>>>> Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
>>>> SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
>>> Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years
>>> ago" you would have it by now, huh?
>> Hard to say, Ted. Why the personal insult? Have they shipped more than
>> the first batch of demo units yet?
> What personal insult? Just fact...
What, that I should sign up for vaporware? I don't suppose you're
still waiting for Microsoft Bob, are you? There's no point in getting
on a list for something when there is no estimated date of delivery.
>>>>> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
>>>>> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
>>>>> should be interesting to watch.
>
>>>> I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
>
>>> Why, so you can piss and moan some more?
>
>> Because it might actually have some merit, and if I could actually
>> buy one of the damn things, if it works, I might do so. But not if
>> they continue blowing smoke and taking a lawyer-ish approach rather
>> than an engineer-ish approach.
>
> Meantime, all you do is take the peanut gallery-ish approach...
I call 'em as I sees 'em. Too bad you don't like that.
>> What's your relationship with SawStop, if any, Ted?
> Zip, zero, zilch, nada...and for the slow ones...NONE!
Just checking. You'll note I didn't imply you were.
So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:05:41 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> If it is true that they have
>>> delivered a thousand saws already, I think that the "pre-order"
>>> is a reflection of honesty by the company, or a failure to update
>>> the web site.
>>
>> I don't know of any more than the first batch of 49 demo units going
>> out. Maybe someone does.
>
> People like you cannot differentiate between a simple number like 49, and
> 949...it won't make a difference how many they send out, will it Dave?
> There just ain't no pleasin' a guy like you.
"first batch" is a pretty significant hurdle to overcome, Ted.
One could use the term "pre-production units". Having spent more
than a little time in manufacturing, I'm acutely aware of the
difference between pre-production and actual manufacturing.
Are you?
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> "first batch" is a pretty significant hurdle to overcome, Ted.
> One could use the term "pre-production units". Having spent more
> than a little time in manufacturing, I'm acutely aware of the
> difference between pre-production and actual manufacturing.
>
> Are you?
Funny you should mention it, Dave. If you had opened your eyes instead of
your mouth, you might have clicked on the link and learned something,
instead of sticking your foot in your mouth yet again. Too bad you are to
busy knocking others for the hard work they do, while being a Monday morning
quarterback...all the while making no relevant contribution whatsoever. I
just so happen to manufacture, market, and sell a product that I make
ENTIRELY from raw materials. And, yes, I am aware of pre-production and
actual manufacturing, but you are obviously not.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:03:17 -0800, ted harris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
Why don't you ask Sawstop? Let me guess...
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:28:43 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:03:17 -0800, ted harris
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
>
> Why don't you ask Sawstop? Let me guess...
Because they haven't updated anything on the website. If that was
your guess, you're right. Why don't I sign up? I don't like
sales weasels, and they'll invariably call and pester once they
have contact information.
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:20:49 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> "first batch" is a pretty significant hurdle to overcome, Ted.
>> One could use the term "pre-production units". Having spent more
>> than a little time in manufacturing, I'm acutely aware of the
>> difference between pre-production and actual manufacturing.
>>
>> Are you?
>
> Funny you should mention it, Dave. If you had opened your eyes instead of
> your mouth, you might have clicked on the link and learned something,
The Link?
> instead of sticking your foot in your mouth yet again. Too bad you are to
> busy knocking others for the hard work they do,
I'm not knocking anyone for any work they've done, I'm asking if/when
they will get to real production.
> while being a Monday morning
> quarterback...all the while making no relevant contribution whatsoever. I
> just so happen to manufacture, market, and sell a product that I make
> ENTIRELY from raw materials. And, yes, I am aware of pre-production and
> actual manufacturing, but you are obviously not.
So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
units?
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> Funny you should mention it, Dave. If you had opened your eyes instead
>> of your mouth, you might have clicked on the link and learned something,
>
> The Link?
Yeah...do you have to be spoon fed for the rest of your life? The link in
my signature. If you had clicked on it, and read a little about my
business, you would not have not asked that question, hence putting your
foot in your mouth.
>> instead of sticking your foot in your mouth yet again. Too bad you are
>> to busy knocking others for the hard work they do,
>
> I'm not knocking anyone for any work they've done, I'm asking if/when
> they will get to real production.
For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
>
>> while being a Monday morning
>> quarterback...all the while making no relevant contribution whatsoever.
>> I just so happen to manufacture, market, and sell a product that I make
>> ENTIRELY from raw materials. And, yes, I am aware of pre-production and
>> actual manufacturing, but you are obviously not.
>
> So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
> 49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
> units?
Well, could you make one? or two? or three? I certainly think that 49
production of their product. However, since I do not know what the number
they have produced is, I won't speculate.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
>>
>> Why don't you ask Sawstop? Let me guess...
>
> Because they haven't updated anything on the website. If that was
> your guess, you're right. Why don't I sign up? I don't like
> sales weasels, and they'll invariably call and pester once they
> have contact information.
It wouldn't matter if they did, would it? The reality of it is that you
cannot get over this obsession. Do you have OCD?
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:36:28 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> Funny you should mention it, Dave. If you had opened your eyes instead
>>> of your mouth, you might have clicked on the link and learned something,
>>
>> The Link?
>
> Yeah...do you have to be spoon fed for the rest of your life? The link in
> my signature.
Oh, that link. Whatever...I didn't see it as being so important as to
be given the title "The Link".
> If you had clicked on it, and read a little about my
> business, you would not have not asked that question, hence putting your
> foot in your mouth.
My foot is comfortably on the floor, thank you. Having a business
doesn't mean you understand what differentiates prod from pre-prod.
>
>> I'm not knocking anyone for any work they've done, I'm asking if/when
>> they will get to real production.
>
> For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
I've looked at their website on a weekly basis or so. Something as
significant as "you can buy them now" would, one would think,
be mentioned there.
>> So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
>> 49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
>> units?
>
> Well, could you make one? or two? or three?
I'm not the one trying to get the government to require something
that can't be bought, Ted, they are.
> I certainly think that 49
> production of their product.
Does that sentence fragment mean that you consider them to be in
production at this point, or not, Ted?
> However, since I do not know what the number
> they have produced is, I won't speculate.
Evasion noted.
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:38:06 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>>>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>>> So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
>>>
>>> Why don't you ask Sawstop? Let me guess...
>>
>> Because they haven't updated anything on the website. If that was
>> your guess, you're right. Why don't I sign up? I don't like
>> sales weasels, and they'll invariably call and pester once they
>> have contact information.
>
> It wouldn't matter if they did, would it? The reality of it is that you
> cannot get over this obsession. Do you have OCD?
Nice. Why discuss actual facts when you can suggest that your
opponent is either on drugs or insane. You realize how weak of
a tactic that is, don't you?
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> Oh, that link. Whatever...I didn't see it as being so important as to
> be given the title "The Link".
Of course YOU don't see it as important, just as you don't see it as
important that Sawstops ARE BEING DELIVERED in spite of your arrogance.
>
>> If you had clicked on it, and read a little about my
>> business, you would not have not asked that question, hence putting your
>> foot in your mouth.
>
> My foot is comfortably on the floor, thank you. Having a business
> doesn't mean you understand what differentiates prod from pre-prod.
Your absolutely right. However, having a business that manufactures,
markets, and sells it own product does mean that there is SOME
understanding of the subject we are talking about, which is MORE than I can
say for you.
>>
>>> I'm not knocking anyone for any work they've done, I'm asking if/when
>>> they will get to real production.
>>
>> For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
>
> I've looked at their website on a weekly basis or so. Something as
> significant as "you can buy them now" would, one would think,
> be mentioned there.
There are plenty of "buy now" buttons on ebay. Perhaps you should be
shopping there.
>
>>> So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
>>> 49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
>>> units?
>>
>> Well, could you make one? or two? or three?
>
> I'm not the one trying to get the government to require something
> that can't be bought, Ted, they are.
>
You are an asshole.
>> I certainly think that 49
>> production of their product.
>
> Does that sentence fragment mean that you consider them to be in
> production at this point, or not, Ted?
Okay, somehow the "producing" and the "is" got left out.
>
>> However, since I do not know what the number
>> they have produced is, I won't speculate.
>
> Evasion noted.
It wasn't an evasion. I guess my expextations of others are a little high,
especially in your case. Okay, producing 49 saws is production of Sawstop
saws.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
In news:Leon <[email protected]> typed:
> Again I know you probably will not see this Dave but weak tactic or not,
> it would explain a lot. Calling Ted your opponent explains a lot also.
Thanks for the laugh!
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:47:49 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> Oh, that link. Whatever...I didn't see it as being so important as to
>> be given the title "The Link".
>
> Of course YOU don't see it as important, just as you don't see it as
> important that Sawstops ARE BEING DELIVERED in spite of your arrogance.
Yes, a small batch of units are being delivered to...general public?
Specially selected? People who pre-ordered? Sawstop employees pretending
to be customers? Who knows.
>>> If you had clicked on it, and read a little about my
>>> business, you would not have not asked that question, hence putting your
>>> foot in your mouth.
>>
>> My foot is comfortably on the floor, thank you. Having a business
>> doesn't mean you understand what differentiates prod from pre-prod.
>
> Your absolutely right. However, having a business that manufactures,
> markets, and sells it own product does mean that there is SOME
> understanding of the subject we are talking about, which is MORE than I can
> say for you.
You have no knowledge of my background and no basis for such an
_ass_umption.
>>>> I'm not knocking anyone for any work they've done, I'm asking if/when
>>>> they will get to real production.
>>>
>>> For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
>>
>> I've looked at their website on a weekly basis or so. Something as
>> significant as "you can buy them now" would, one would think,
>> be mentioned there.
>
> There are plenty of "buy now" buttons on ebay. Perhaps you should be
> shopping there.
Can't get a sawstop there, now, can I.
>>>> So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
>>>> 49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
>>>> units?
>>>
>>> Well, could you make one? or two? or three?
>>
>> I'm not the one trying to get the government to require something
>> that can't be bought, Ted, they are.
>>
> You are an asshole.
Love you too, baby. Evasion noted.
>>> I certainly think that 49
>>> production of their product.
>>
>> Does that sentence fragment mean that you consider them to be in
>> production at this point, or not, Ted?
>
> Okay, somehow the "producing" and the "is" got left out.
Figured such, which is why I came to the conclusion I did. So you
consider this batch of saws to be a production run? Where's the
next batch then?
>>
>>> However, since I do not know what the number
>>> they have produced is, I won't speculate.
>>
>> Evasion noted.
>
> It wasn't an evasion. I guess my expextations of others are a little high,
> especially in your case. Okay, producing 49 saws is production of Sawstop
> saws.
Usually production runs are, you know, ongoing. But whatever.
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:49:33 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Leon <[email protected]> typed:
>> Again I know you probably will not see this Dave but weak tactic or not,
>> it would explain a lot. Calling Ted your opponent explains a lot also.
>
> Thanks for the laugh!
Yuk it up, funny boy. And though Leon is happy to snipe at someone he
knows has him firmly lodged in a killfile, the fact remains that
stooping to personal insults is a sure way of admitting you have no
basis in logic for your point of view.
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:47:49 -0800, ted harris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>>>
>>>> For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
>>>
>>> I've looked at their website on a weekly basis or so. Something as
>>> significant as "you can buy them now" would, one would think,
>>> be mentioned there.
>>
>> There are plenty of "buy now" buttons on ebay. Perhaps you should be
>> shopping there.
>
> Can't get a sawstop there, now, can I.
Wait a minute...you have enough time to write hundreds of responses
requiring countless hours here regarding sawstop, yet you don't have 1
minute to compose an email to them for info? What is your motive?
>>>> I certainly think that 49
>>>> production of their product.
>>>
>>> Does that sentence fragment mean that you consider them to be in
>>> production at this point, or not, Ted?
>>
>> Okay, somehow the "producing" and the "is" got left out.
>
> Figured such, which is why I came to the conclusion I did. So you
> consider this batch of saws to be a production run? Where's the
> next batch then?
On the boat? Where do you think they are? Floating around in cyberspace,
prolly.
>
>>>
>>>> However, since I do not know what the number
>>>> they have produced is, I won't speculate.
>>>
>>> Evasion noted.
>>
>> It wasn't an evasion. I guess my expextations of others are a little
>> high, especially in your case. Okay, producing 49 saws is production of
>> Sawstop saws.
>
> Usually production runs are, you know, ongoing. But whatever.
You mean I can't call up a manufacturer and order 49 saws, or 5,000 saws? I
have to keep buying them forever?
This is pointless.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
Dave Hinz wrote:
> What, that I should sign up for vaporware? I don't suppose you're
> still waiting for Microsoft Bob, are you? There's no point in getting
> on a list for something when there is no estimated date of delivery.
You mean Microsoft isn't going to to relase Bob? Dammit, I've been on the
waiting list for about 14 years now, and I was sure this was going to be
the year.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:24:38 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:47:49 -0800, ted harris
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>>>>
>>>>> For like the zillionth time, why don't you ask Sawstop?
>>>>
>>>> I've looked at their website on a weekly basis or so. Something as
>>>> significant as "you can buy them now" would, one would think,
>>>> be mentioned there.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of "buy now" buttons on ebay. Perhaps you should be
>>> shopping there.
>>
>> Can't get a sawstop there, now, can I.
>
> Wait a minute...you have enough time to write hundreds of responses
> requiring countless hours here regarding sawstop, yet you don't have 1
> minute to compose an email to them for info? What is your motive?
If one could actually go order one, don't you think they'd say so
on, you know, their website?
>>>>> I certainly think that 49
>>>>> production of their product.
>>>>
>>>> Does that sentence fragment mean that you consider them to be in
>>>> production at this point, or not, Ted?
>>>
>>> Okay, somehow the "producing" and the "is" got left out.
>>
>> Figured such, which is why I came to the conclusion I did. So you
>> consider this batch of saws to be a production run? Where's the
>> next batch then?
>
> On the boat? Where do you think they are? Floating around in cyberspace,
> prolly.
Another non-answer from Ted.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> However, since I do not know what the number
>>>>> they have produced is, I won't speculate.
>>>>
>>>> Evasion noted.
>>>
>>> It wasn't an evasion. I guess my expextations of others are a little
>>> high, especially in your case. Okay, producing 49 saws is production of
>>> Sawstop saws.
>>
>> Usually production runs are, you know, ongoing. But whatever.
>
> You mean I can't call up a manufacturer and order 49 saws, or 5,000 saws? I
> have to keep buying them forever?
> This is pointless.
It was pointless a while ago, Ted.
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:27:02 -0500, Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>> What, that I should sign up for vaporware? I don't suppose you're
>> still waiting for Microsoft Bob, are you? There's no point in getting
>> on a list for something when there is no estimated date of delivery.
>
> You mean Microsoft isn't going to to relase Bob? Dammit, I've been on the
> waiting list for about 14 years now, and I was sure this was going to be
> the year.
Well, I hear Longhorn should be out some time in 2003, so that may be
the next Bob.
Meanwile, I just did a Suse Linux Enterprise Server (9) install, and
I'm impressed. Never tried a Suse distro before, and this is a nice one.
Dave
In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>> Wait a minute...you have enough time to write hundreds of responses
>> requiring countless hours here regarding sawstop, yet you don't have 1
>> minute to compose an email to them for info? What is your motive?
>
> If one could actually go order one, don't you think they'd say so
> on, you know, their website?
In your own words...EVASION NOTED!
>> On the boat? Where do you think they are? Floating around in
>> cyberspace, prolly.
>
> Another non-answer from Ted.
In your own words...>ANOTHER NON-ANSWER FROM DAVE!
>>>
>>> Usually production runs are, you know, ongoing. But whatever.
>>
>> You mean I can't call up a manufacturer and order 49 saws, or 5,000
>> saws? I have to keep buying them forever?
>> This is pointless.
>
> It was pointless a while ago, Ted.
EVASION NOTED!
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:08:15 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> Wait a minute...you have enough time to write hundreds of responses
>>> requiring countless hours here regarding sawstop, yet you don't have 1
>>> minute to compose an email to them for info? What is your motive?
>>
>> If one could actually go order one, don't you think they'd say so
>> on, you know, their website?
>
> In your own words...EVASION NOTED!
No evasion, Ted. Why should I write an email to ask them what I can find
clearly posted on their website; that they aren't accepting orders yet?
"Hi, I see on your site I can't order a saw yet. Can I order a saw yet?"
Maybe that's your communication style, but it's not mine.
>>> On the boat? Where do you think they are? Floating around in
>>> cyberspace, prolly.
>>
>> Another non-answer from Ted.
>
> In your own words...>ANOTHER NON-ANSWER FROM DAVE!
That's great. Now you've gone from pointless, to mildly amusing, to
a parrot.
>>>> Usually production runs are, you know, ongoing. But whatever.
>>>
>>> You mean I can't call up a manufacturer and order 49 saws, or 5,000
>>> saws? I have to keep buying them forever?
>>> This is pointless.
>>
>> It was pointless a while ago, Ted.
>
> EVASION NOTED!
Your caps-lock seems to be stuck.
In news:Brian Elfert <[email protected]> typed:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>No evasion, Ted. Why should I write an email to ask them what I can find
>>clearly posted on their website; that they aren't accepting orders yet?
>>"Hi, I see on your site I can't order a saw yet. Can I order a saw yet?"
>>Maybe that's your communication style, but it's not mine.
> They are currently shipping all of the preordered saws. A saw ordered
> today would be expected to ship in April or May.
There you have it, Dave...You can expect to have it shipped in April or May.
Does not even cost you a penny to "pre-order." If you decide you don't want
it,. no payment is required. Now let's see if your serious....LOL.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:10:26 -0800, ted harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> In news:Brian Elfert <[email protected]> typed:
>> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> They are currently shipping all of the preordered saws. A saw ordered
>> today would be expected to ship in April or May.
>
> There you have it, Dave...You can expect to have it shipped in April or May.
> Does not even cost you a penny to "pre-order." If you decide you don't want
> it,. no payment is required. Now let's see if your serious....LOL.
When have I ever said "I'll buy one when they're available", Ted?
My point is, and has been, that I can't order one, yet they want to
force the government to require their technology.
Nice try at redefining my point, though.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:02:35 -0500, Anonymous <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:27:02 -0500, Silvan wrote:
>
>
>> You mean Microsoft isn't going to to relase Bob? Dammit, I've been on the
>> waiting list for about 14 years now, and I was sure this was going to be
>> the year.
>
> Last I heard they were waiting for Longhorn.
Good point, but why lose it's impact by posting it anonymously?
<sawstop snipped>
>
> One of the things that I wonder about is why no US company
> includes riving knives or offers them as an option, especially
> in light of their claims that they would include safety features
> on their saws if such worked and were available.
>
That sounds like a class action suit to me.
(kidding, not an attorney).
I'd like to see them too!
Tom
Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:
>No evasion, Ted. Why should I write an email to ask them what I can find
>clearly posted on their website; that they aren't accepting orders yet?
>"Hi, I see on your site I can't order a saw yet. Can I order a saw yet?"
>Maybe that's your communication style, but it's not mine.
I called Sawstop for the heck of it since I have no intention of replacng
my Unisaw.
They are currently shipping all of the preordered saws. A saw ordered
today would be expected to ship in April or May.
I didn't ask how many have been sold, but the production rate seems really
slow or they have a lot of saws to make.
Brian Elfert
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:22 -0600, CALA Workshop <[email protected]>
wrote:
>THE TEST:
>SawStop provided us with a demo cartridge and we tested the SawStop on
>Thursday, January 13th. ...
>
How did the blade fare ?
Do you have any sense of how much of a premium SawStop
is placing on their device ? In other words, how much cheaper
do you think this saw would be if it didn't include the cartridge,
sensing mechanism, and withdrawal mechanism.
>The riving knife is great!: easy to change, never in the way and
>effectively keeps stock going in a straight line.
One of the things that I wonder about is why no US company
includes riving knives or offers them as an option, especially
in light of their claims that they would include safety features
on their saws if such worked and were available.
Ted, you are talking to a brick wall. Dave is one of those type people that
makes a statement and stands by it come hell or high water, right or wrong.
The fact that the product works past the proof that he wanted to see, the
fact that the product is not Vaporware, and the fact that the product is
shipping and the owners are happy with the purchased over all will not
change his mind. He will continue to look the other way and deny the
SawStop's existence. He now complains because he did not get in line to
start with and has to wait his turn to get a Saw Stop saw. You know the
type.
"ted harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
>>> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
>>> such a system.
>>
>> Yeah, there's probably some litigious bastard who would do such a
>> thing. Pity, that.
>
> No, the pity is that they were too cheap to put a safety device on their
> machines that provides better safety than anything that has ever been
> offered. But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with
> their
> ability to make a profit...NOT!
>
>> Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
>> SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
>
> Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years
> ago"
> you would have it by now, huh?
>
>>> Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
>>> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
>>> should be interesting to watch.
>>
>> I'm not holding my breat. I'd like to see a good test, though.
>
> Why, so you can piss and moan some more?
> --
> Ted Harris
> http://www.tedharris.com
>
>
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:02:35 -0500, Anonymous <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:27:02 -0500, Silvan wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You mean Microsoft isn't going to to relase Bob? Dammit, I've been on
>>> the
>>> waiting list for about 14 years now, and I was sure this was going to be
>>> the year.
>>
>> Last I heard they were waiting for Longhorn.
>
> Good point, but why lose it's impact by posting it anonymously?
Like using Dave Hinz would in any way add impact?
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> That model fits a large number of the dot coms that
> are no longer with us.
Yeah, but dot coms were largely based on vapourware and rhetoric. Now that
SawStop is shipping, (at least a few machines anyway), I think it will be a
whole new ballgame.
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, let's test your concept of pre-production. Do you consider the
> 49 saws that we know of, to be a production run, or pre-production
> units?
>
Unless you work for SawStop and know their business plan you would be a fool
to think you knew the answer to that question. It could be either.
"ted harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
> >> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
> >> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
> >> such a system.
> >
> > Yeah, there's probably some litigious bastard who would do such a
> > thing. Pity, that.
>
> No, the pity is that they were too cheap to put a safety device on their
> machines that provides better safety than anything that has ever been
> offered. But you keep believing that your safety is on equal par with
their
> ability to make a profit...NOT!
I'd say the SawStop makes a very modest improvement over existing safety
technology, i.e. the blade guard.
> > Especially when I still couldn't buy a saw from
> > SawStop today if I wanted to (but I can pre-order, same as years ago).
>
> Guess if you had shown some nuts and stepped up and ordered one "years
ago"
> you would have it by now, huh?
Why does someone have to "show some nuts" to buy a table saw? Not everyone
is willing to wait a couple of years to get a saw. I just went to their web
site. Guess what! I can place a non-binding preorder right now! Wheeeeee!
todd
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:44:29 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> How many have they shipped? And why are they so closed-mouthed about
>>> production volumes?
>>
>>It is simply none of your business.
>
> It may not be our business, but it is hard to commit that
> much money to a brand new company without having
> some information and/or evidence that it is likely to be
> around for more than a year or so.
Befiore retiring from the automotive industry I was the GM of an AC/Delco/3M
wholesale distributorship. The company was quite successful, the father and
son owners retired as millionares, and we NEVER divulged our sales volume
to any one with out a need to know interest. Why invite competition to see
what a great business we had?
SawSop survived 2 or 3 years with no sales. I suspect that with revenue
coming in that the chances of survival are more likely.
I suspect that SawStop began delivering units because there were many more
people willing to give the product a chance than not.
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> It wouldn't matter if they did, would it? The reality of it is that you
>> cannot get over this obsession. Do you have OCD?
>
> Nice. Why discuss actual facts when you can suggest that your
> opponent is either on drugs or insane. You realize how weak of
> a tactic that is, don't you?
>
Again I know you probably will not see this Dave but weak tactic or not, it
would explain a lot. Calling Ted your opponent explains a lot also.
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:09:14 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> SawSop survived 2 or 3 years with no sales. I suspect that with revenue
>>coming in that the chances of survival are more likely.
>
>
> That model fits a large number of the dot coms that
> are no longer with us.
There was nothing wrong with the Dot com companies except timing. 5 to 10
years ago the stock market was performing better that we will likely ever
see again. Investors were coming out of the wood work to invest. The
market was WAY over saturated with investors and many of the dot com
companies which basically had no assets were FLOODED with money from
investors, money managers, and investment companies. When sales of these
start up companies did not meet up with investors expectations the investors
pulled out. This left the dot com companies with no operating capitol. It
would be like investing 50 million dollars into a single corner convenience
store.
Kevin Groenke <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Brake cartridge is $60, we're not changing them 15-20 times because
> they need to be replaced, but because we need to use a dado set(or
> whatever).
So the brake cartridge comes off when you need to put on the dado? How
long does this changeover take?
Patriarch
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:28:43 -0800, ted harris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:03:17 -0800, ted harris
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> In news:Dave Hinz <[email protected]> typed:
>>> So, when can I actually go out and buy one of these, I wonder?
>>
>> Why don't you ask Sawstop? Let me guess...
>
> Because they haven't updated anything on the website. If that was
> your guess, you're right. Why don't I sign up? I don't like
> sales weasels, and they'll invariably call and pester once they
> have contact information.
>
You have an excuse for everything.
MORE ON MY MESSAGE
Testing the saw was not a complete waste, we did determine that the saw
does indeed stop, and I sleep easier knowing it.
Brake cartridge is $60, we're not changing them 15-20 times because they
need to be replaced, but because we need to use a dado set(or whatever).
We hit the x-cut fence while the blade was running or it would not have
been neglect.
KG
CALA Workshop wrote:
> THE TEST:
> SawStop provided us with a demo cartridge and we tested the SawStop on
> Thursday, January 13th.
>
> I cut a variety of materials such as: wood, plywood, melamine, acrylic,
> mdf. etc. I enabled the bypass and cut aluminum, green treated and
> stapled pine. When in bypass mode you will get a code in flashing
> lights indicating whether the SawStop would have triggered. The lights
> indicated that the SawStop WOULD NOT have been triggered by cutting the
> green treated or the stapled pine, so I proceeded to cut them with the
> SawStop on.
>
> I then got out the drumsticks and cut one in bypass mode. It's amazing
> how easy it is to cut through a drumstick, pretty gory and except for
> the lack of blood, not unlike a shop accident. I've always thought of
> doing this during shop orientations, but decided that it could encourage
> sophomoric actions (the last thing they need is encouragement).
>
> I'd been asked by some rec.woodworkers to push the stock rapidly into
> the blade in order to get an idea how much damage would be done in the
> case of a slip or similar accident.
>
> So to test the SawStop I jammed the drumstick into the blade nearly as
> fast is I could, the blade promptly disappeared and with virtually no
> resistance I proceeded to IMPALE the chicken leg onto the riving knife
> (oh the shame).
>
> RESULTS:
> SawStop works: the blade definitely stopped and definitely dropped
> (observers indicated that this happened too fast to discern). Since the
> drumstick was impaled on the riving knife, I have NO IDEA, how much
> damage the drumstick sustained from the blade before it's encounter with
> the riving knife. As you can imagine this was a little embarrassing.
> Here we've spent $6000 on saws that "save fingers", and I've got a
> chicken leg skewered by a chunk of steel, not so impressive.
>
> Coincidentally, the SawStop went off again the first time we tilted the
> blade as we had neglected to provide adequate clearance for the aluminum
> fence on the sliding table. DOH!!! Steven and/or David: any chance of
> getting a replacement brake cartridge for our whoops? Again observers
> were dumbfounded. Results: a tiny nick on the crosscutting fence.
>
> I was expecting a significant jolt/vibration/lurch of the saw when the
> SawStop was triggered, but aside from a solid THUD and the
> "disappearance" of blade, there are little dramatics.
>
> MORE IMPRESSIONS
> My initial impressions (inserted below) are still pretty valid.
>
> These are very nice saws.
> They are smooth, quiet, and basically a pleasure to use, definitely
> comparable+ to a PM66.
> To date our students have had few problems making the switch from the
> unisaws.
> The riving knife is great!: easy to change, never in the way and
> effectively keeps stock going in a straight line.
> I sanded the gloss off of the extension tables and they are ok now.
> After 15-20 brake cartridge changes it is pretty second nature (this is
> just an issue of learning where the "locating pins" are).
> Arbor nuts/washers drop directly into the hose attached to the "dust
> shroud" we have enough suction to move the nuts to the most
> inaccessible part of the DC pipe. I suppose it's time for an access port.
> We LOVE the paddle switch, a machine has never been so easy to shut off.
> The "power disconnect switch" however is on the bottom back corner of
> the left side of the cabinet and is a pain to get to with the sliding
> table attached to the saw, oh well.
>
> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before
> Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide
> such a system. Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for
> licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose,
> should be interesting to watch.
>
>
The blade lost a couple of teeth when removed from the brake cartridge.
Other than that it didn't look too bad. We're not taking any
chances, you never know what sort of metal fatigue or stress the sawstop
has caused. Any manufacturers warranty would undoubtedly be voided by
such misuse.
If a good dado set got whacked I may be tempted to use it again, but the
$35 amana AGE's we're using (a great cheap blade BTW) are almost
disposable the way our students treat them.
Our saws ARE NOT "demo" machines. I believe ours were in the 60's
shipped out of production, not pre-production. That was at the end of
December.
I'm sure that sawstop currently has a much smaller margin than
delta/jet/grizzly. We got a better saw than a PM66, with sawstop from a
very small production run for only $400 more than a 66. sawstop IS NOT
making as much $ as jet/pm is on that 66. Sawstop needs to establish a
market and surely considered the price points of the competition in
doing so.
>>I'd say the SawStop makes a very modest improvement over existing
>>safety technology, i.e. the blade guard.
That would maybe be true if 100% of tablesaws in use still had the
bladeguards on them and they were used. We all know that a significant
percentage of bladeguard are NEVER used and more are infrquently used.
Sawstop is a exponential improvement over a bladeguard in the garage
rafters, the storage room, or the trash.
Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:45:58 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 2 Feb 2005 16:33:42 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
>>>before.
>>
>> You have a point. At the same time, you must have had the
>> experience of ordering something and finding out after it hasn't
>> shown up for a month or two that it is "on backorder," or there
>> is a "shipment coming in soon," etc.
>
>
> Yup. A backorder is fine, if there's an expected delivery date
> attached to it.
>
>
>> If it is true that they have
>> delivered a thousand saws already, I think that the "pre-order"
>> is a reflection of honesty by the company, or a failure to update
>> the web site.
>
>
> I don't know of any more than the first batch of 49 demo units going
> out. Maybe someone does.
>
Leon wrote:
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Ever start a new business? Sure, we'll buy from you when youhave a track
>> record, but not just yet. Good thing someone took a chance and bought
>> that first Studebaker or no telling how they would have wound up.
>
> Same with Oldsmobile. There are those that do, those that watch, and
> those the throw stones.
Just a comment on Studebaker, but that "first Studebaker" was a farm wagon
hand-made by the brothers Studebaker in their smithy and sold in 1856.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Upscale wrote:
> "GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> That model fits a large number of the dot coms that
>> are no longer with us.
>
> Yeah, but dot coms were largely based on vapourware and rhetoric. Now that
> SawStop is shipping, (at least a few machines anyway), I think it will be
> a whole new ballgame.
Not necessarily. Businesses succeed on marketing, not technical excellence
(see for example Microsoft). The fact that they've shipped a few machines
doesn't mean that they'll ship enough to keep the lights on.
I've seen a lot of little companies that had excellent products go under
because the owners didn't understand that in order for someone to buy your
product they first have to know that it exists.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ever start a new business? Sure, we'll buy from you when youhave a track
> record, but not just yet. Good thing someone took a chance and bought
> that first Studebaker or no telling how they would have wound up.
Same with Oldsmobile. There are those that do, those that watch, and those
the throw stones.
On 2 Feb 2005 16:33:42 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>And still can only be pre-ordered. Yes, Ted, we've been down this road
>before.
You have a point. At the same time, you must have had the
experience of ordering something and finding out after it hasn't
shown up for a month or two that it is "on backorder," or there
is a "shipment coming in soon," etc. If it is true that they have
delivered a thousand saws already, I think that the "pre-order"
is a reflection of honesty by the company, or a failure to update
the web site.
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:24:48 -0600, CALA Workshop <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> The blade lost a couple of teeth when removed from the brake cartridge.
>
> So, it's wrecked.
I know that you have plonked me but geeeeez. It is not unrsual to have
teeth replaced on a blade. Regardles I would much rather have a wrecked
blade than a wrecked body part.
>
>> Other than that it didn't look too bad.
> Right.
Sarcastic SOB. You truely are clueless.
>
>> Our saws ARE NOT "demo" machines. I believe ours were in the 60's
>> shipped out of production, not pre-production. That was at the end of
>> December.
>
> How many have they shipped? And why are they so closed-mouthed about
> production volumes?
It is simply none of your business.
>
>> Sawstop is a exponential improvement over a bladeguard in the garage
>> rafters, the storage room, or the trash.
>
> Except that I can have a bladeguard today if I choose to.
But probably will not because you choose not to.
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:09:14 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> SawSop survived 2 or 3 years with no sales. I suspect that with revenue
>coming in that the chances of survival are more likely.
That model fits a large number of the dot coms that
are no longer with us.
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:09:14 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Befiore retiring from the automotive industry I was the GM of an
>>AC/Delco/3M
>>wholesale distributorship. The company was quite successful, the father
>>and
>>son owners retired as millionares, and we NEVER divulged our sales volume
>>to any one with out a need to know interest. Why invite competition to
>>see
>>what a great business we had?
>
>
> You were a reseller. Why the heck would anyone care
> how many parts you pushed through ?
Umm. To make money and retire a millionaire and or retire at 40 like me. We
certainly did not want any one cutting into our business. We had a very
unique nitch in the market as we competed with our supplier and sold parts
cheaper than our supplier, General Motors, selling to the GM dealers. Yes,
we bought parts from GM and sold to GM dealers for less than what GM dealers
would pay directly from GM. It was really stupidly simple and the business
lasted for 25 years before the competition caught on. Most AC Delco
wholesalers sold to the lower priced auto parts stores, jobbers, and small
shops.
Now that SawStop has committed to building the saw vs. licensing the product
to other manufacturers they will want as little competition as possible and
the best way to keep that from happening is to not let the secret of sales
volume get out.
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:09:14 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Befiore retiring from the automotive industry I was the GM of an AC/Delco/3M
>wholesale distributorship. The company was quite successful, the father and
>son owners retired as millionares, and we NEVER divulged our sales volume
>to any one with out a need to know interest. Why invite competition to see
>what a great business we had?
You were a reseller. Why the heck would anyone care
how many parts you pushed through ?
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 18:10:26 -0800, ted harris wrote:
> There you have it, Dave...You can expect to have it shipped in April or
> May. Does not even cost you a penny to "pre-order." If you decide you
> don't want it,. no payment is required. Now let's see if your
> serious....LOL.
Is pre-ordering anything like pre-drilling?
- Doug
--
To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:22 -0600, CALA Workshop <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> RESULTS:
>> SawStop works: the blade definitely stopped and definitely dropped
>> (observers indicated that this happened too fast to discern). Since the
>> drumstick was impaled on the riving knife, I have NO IDEA, how much
>> damage the drumstick sustained from the blade before it's encounter with
>> the riving knife.
>
> That's too bad. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of a test.
If the bone was not damaged the results were good as the riving knife should
not have removed any bone material.
.
"ted harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In news:Leon <[email protected]> typed:
>> Again I know you probably will not see this Dave but weak tactic or not,
>> it would explain a lot. Calling Ted your opponent explains a lot also.
>
> Thanks for the laugh!
Ted, if you like to argue, Dave is your man. He also prides himself as
being the local net nanny. I think he has plonked me because I do not use
his rules for responding to others.
"CALA Workshop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> THE TEST:
Snip.
How did the blade fare?
Thanks for the review.
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:44:29 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> How many have they shipped? And why are they so closed-mouthed about
>> production volumes?
>
>It is simply none of your business.
It may not be our business, but it is hard to commit that
much money to a brand new company without having
some information and/or evidence that it is likely to be
around for more than a year or so. While decent sales
volume doesn't guarantee long-term viability, it helps.