My church [tiny, with even tinier budget] is getting ready to wall off
an area for a nursery. If we put in a door (of course we'll have a
door), the state says the door has to have a glass panel so people can
see in.
One of the ladies suggested using Dutch doors so the top half could be
left completely open. Nobody knows where to order a set of dutch doors,
much less with a window in the top half, and I suspect they are quite
expensive.
How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks? And what
about cutting a 20" square hole in the top half and framing in a
Plexiglass panel? Would the hinges already be in the right place if I
start with a pre-hung door? (I know I'd need to add a second pair of
hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
cutting it in half...
Thanks,
Bob
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
>
> And you might consider something tinted enough that children inside might
> not notice parents looking through as much, but those same parents can
> still
> see what's going on to some degree.
>
>
If parents need to see in and the kids need to NOT see out, maybe an
inexpensive monitor system could be installed. Modern electronics, cameras
and moinitors are plentiful and much cheaper than they used to be.
And if some problem kids are going to yell, perhaps some sound proofing.
On Feb 2, 5:36=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >>> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> >>>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>
> >>>> There is no such thing. =A0It's just a semitransparent mirror--you
> >>>> can see through it to whichever side has the brighter light.
> >>>> When
> >>>> used, for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the
> >>>> lineup side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup
> >>>> sees
> >>>> a mirror. If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on
> >>>> the witness side then you can see the other way.
>
> >>> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how
> >>> that very thing works.
>
> >>> I'm confused. =A0 :-)
>
> >> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that
> >> can always be seen through from one side and that always reflects
> >> from the other side. As he explained, it depends on different light
> >> levels on each side.
>
> > Read my reply to John.
>
> > Do you guys get woodies from bringing up pointless and useless
> > semantics? =A0 :-)
>
> Welcome to USENET.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Please, let's have a round of applause for our newly appointed
WallMart greeter....
-MIKE- wrote:
> Mom, Dad... drop the poop monsters off and don't come back until you're
>> taking them for good.
>>
>> rant over.
>>
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:40:43 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
> How about one of those peep-hole lenses that people install on their front
>doors? That way, overly protective Mom or Dad could peek in on the room
>without opening the door. (make sure the door swings inward so nobody gets
>a black eye).
Web cam! Then he or she can check (cell phone) while finishing
commuting to work. Or while sitting at work.
Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618
On Feb 10, 1:28=A0am, zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
> zxcvbob wrote:
> > SteveBell wrote:
>
> >> If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
> >> one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
> >> both halves of the door are closed?
>
> > The upper door needs a window... or there could just be a lower door.
>
> >> 'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
> >> the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
> >> (has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
>
> > Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. =A0I knew that much=
.
>
> > Bob
>
> Woman from the church talked to a finish carpenter (or maybe a cabinet
> maker) yesterday and he said it couldn't be done -- even with a solid
> core door because the panels would come apart if it was cut. =A0??? =A0Of
> course, I don't know what she really asked him.
>
> I have a table saw, jointer, and router. =A0I may just make a door from
> scratch and use Formica for the door skins instead of Luan to make it
> more durable. =A0How hard could it be? =A0(if it's a disaster, I'll learn
> something, and no one else has to know :-) =A0Spruce 2x6's aren't that
> expensive...
>
> I should probably hang it before I apply the skins so they don't chip at
> the edges if the door needs to be trimmed.
>
> (Somebody stop me)
>
> Bob
The skins will need a substrate if you're going to use Formica. 1/4"
ply would do you.
"zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
> cutting it in half...
Do the state rules say how or what height the window must be? With a bottom
door in place to start, adults can see in as needed so a window shouldn't be
needed there.
You can go with a full door and cut it in half if you think it might be
easier, but essentially you're fitting two doors into an existing space. I'd
install the bottom door first just to get an effective working partition in
there as soon as possible and then fit the upper door with window as needed.
On 2/1/2009 12:49 PM zxcvbob spake thus:
> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks? And what
> about cutting a 20" square hole in the top half and framing in a
> Plexiglass panel? Would the hinges already be in the right place if I
> start with a pre-hung door? (I know I'd need to add a second pair of
> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
> cutting it in half...
I was going to do just this (install a Dutch door) for someone recently.
Don't use a hollow-core door: use a solid door. No patching or filling
necessary. Leave at least 1/8" clearance between doors.
Yes, hang it by all 4 hinges first, then cut (duh!).
You may want to consider adding a shelf to the bottom half; usual way is
to reduce the height of the bottom door by the thickness of the shelf.
Add supports on both sides as needed.
--
Made From Pears: Pretty good chance that the product is at least
mostly pears.
Made With Pears: Pretty good chance that pears will be detectable in
the product.
Contains Pears: One pear seed per multiple tons of product.
(with apologies to Dorothy L. Sayers)
On 2/1/2009 3:02 PM aemeijers spake thus:
> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
>> zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> -snip-
>>
>>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>>
>> I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
>> pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
>> thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
>> commercial usage]
>
> Nobody else said it, so I will- talk to your local code people and/or
> your insurance carrier. The rulebook for schools and daycare would
> probably apply. I don't think a residential door would pass muster, or
> last long. I think you are looking at metal frame and fire-rated door,
> and wired glass for the window. Leastways, that is what I have always
> seen used in that application. And unless the room has another exit,
> not sure a dutch door would be allowed- too confusing in the dark and smoke.
Good advice there.
When I was going to install a Dutch door, my customer asked me to check
code on it before going ahead. So I talked to the local building
inspector (City of Oakland), who was very helpful. Basically, he asked
me what kind of door was there before (it was a hollow-core door), and
said that since the existing door wasn't fire-rated (and didn't need to
be), the Dutch door needn't be either.
So what I took away from this is that if one is installing a Dutch door
to replace an existing door, assuming that the existing door is
code-compliant, than the Dutch door should be built to the same spec as
the existing door. If the door is fire-rated, then the Dutch door needs
to be as well.
--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".
- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
On 2/2/2009 9:49 AM -MIKE- spake thus:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>
>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When used,
>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>> side then you can see the other way.
>
> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how that
> very thing works.
>
> I'm confused. :-)
There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that can
always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
each side.
--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".
- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
On 2/2/2009 2:59 PM PDQ spake thus:
> IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up
> not from its constituents.
Hamburger = from Hamburg
Hot dog = from Frankfurt (both in Germany)
(at least so the legends go)
--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".
- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
On 2/2/2009 3:56 PM -MIKE- spake thus:
> PDQ wrote:
>
>>>> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
>>>
>>> Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results with
>>> the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
>>>
>>> That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger because
>>> there's no ham in it. So what? We all no what we're talking about.
>>
>> IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up
>> not from its constituents.
>
> That would make you treasurer of the club for pointless and useless
> information.
I see. So with you it's "just the facts, ma'am", is that it? I guess
you're a regular Joe Friday.
--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".
- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
J. Clarke wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you
>>> can
>>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When
>>> used,
>>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a
>>> mirror.
>>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>>> side then you can see the other way.
>>>
>>
>> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how
>> that
>> very thing works.
>>
>> I'm confused. :-)
>
> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
>
To be more specific, the side you are able to see through tends to be poorly
lighted, the other side is very well lighted. If you reversed the
lighting, the mirror will almost work as well, they tend to be somewhat
directional.
--
Froz...
aemeijers wrote:
> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>> zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> -snip-
>>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>>
>> I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
>> pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
>> thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
>> commercial usage]
>>
>> Jim
>
> Nobody else said it, so I will- talk to your local code people and/or
> your insurance carrier. The rulebook for schools and daycare would
> probably apply. I don't think a residential door would pass muster, or
> last long. I think you are looking at metal frame and fire-rated door,
> and wired glass for the window. Leastways, that is what I have always
> seen used in that application. And unless the room has another exit,
> not sure a dutch door would be allowed- too confusing in the dark and
> smoke.
>
> If your church is broke, check out Habitat ReStore, even if you have to
> drive a couple towns over. The ones I have been in usually have a decent
> selection of ripout commercial doors, and since Habitat is church-based,
> they would likely cut you a break on the price.
>
> --
> aem sends...
I appreciate that. I'll check with the insurance company. This is a
little country church out in the middle of nowhere and I really doubt
the county/inspector cares. Still, we want to do things right.
A fire door doesn't make any sense because the wall is not going to be a
firewall. Originally it was just going to be a temporary partition, but
a wall is cheaper for this one. Other rooms are being walled off with
partitions...
Bob
SteveBell wrote:
> If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
> one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
> both halves of the door are closed?
The upper door needs a window... or there could just be a lower door.
> 'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
> the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
> (has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
Bob
zxcvbob wrote:
> SteveBell wrote:
>
>> If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
>> one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
>> both halves of the door are closed?
>
> The upper door needs a window... or there could just be a lower door.
>
>> 'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
>> the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
>> (has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
>
>
> Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
>
> Bob
Woman from the church talked to a finish carpenter (or maybe a cabinet
maker) yesterday and he said it couldn't be done -- even with a solid
core door because the panels would come apart if it was cut. ??? Of
course, I don't know what she really asked him.
I have a table saw, jointer, and router. I may just make a door from
scratch and use Formica for the door skins instead of Luan to make it
more durable. How hard could it be? (if it's a disaster, I'll learn
something, and no one else has to know :-) Spruce 2x6's aren't that
expensive...
I should probably hang it before I apply the skins so they don't chip at
the edges if the door needs to be trimmed.
(Somebody stop me)
Bob
Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 10, 1:28 am, zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>> zxcvbob wrote:
>>
>> I have a table saw, jointer, and router. I may just make a door from
>> scratch and use Formica for the door skins instead of Luan to make it
>> more durable. How hard could it be? (if it's a disaster, I'll learn
>> something, and no one else has to know :-) Spruce 2x6's aren't that
>> expensive...
>>
>> I should probably hang it before I apply the skins so they don't chip at
>> the edges if the door needs to be trimmed.
>>
>> (Somebody stop me)
>>
>> Bob
>
> The skins will need a substrate if you're going to use Formica. 1/4"
> ply would do you.
To keep the rails and stiles and blocking from telegraphing thru? I was
planning to have quite a bit of internal bracing (because of the window)
and fill the voids with foam sheeting (to deaden the noise.) Not
arguing, just trying to understand what you mean. Thanks.
There are hollow-core slab doors with windows in them at work. I'm
gonna take some measurements today.
Bob
Jay Giuliani wrote:
> Not true about the hollow core doors.
>
> I had to make some off standard size doors and started with hollow
> cores. I cut them to size, knocked the cardboard stiffener out of the
> way on the open edge and milled a piece to fit the gap and glued it in.
>
> Once I sanded the edges it looked almost like the factory edge.
>
I thought so.
I'll see if Menard's has any prehung hollow core slab doors. Hollow
core probably has only 2 hinges, so it'll be easier to add another pair
before I cut it (instead of having to move the center hinge and add a
4th.) I've been looking at windowed hollow doors at work and they have
a relatively small window off-center and away from the hinges -- doesn't
reduce the strength as much that way.
I might can do the whole thing in a weekend for < $100. If I ruin it, I
haven't ruined much. (the window will be trickier than cutting and
reblocking the edges) Thanks.
Bob
On Feb 2, 7:03=A0pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]=
otzarella.org...
> > PDQ wrote:
> > >>> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
>
> > >> Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results wi=
th
> > >> the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
>
> > >> That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger becau=
se
> > >> there's no ham in it. =A0So what? =A0We all no what we're talking ab=
out.
>
> > > IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up n=
ot from its constituents.
>
> > > P D Q
>
> > That would make you treasurer of the club for pointless and useless
> > information.
> > How often do you guys hold your meetings? =A0 :-p
>
> As often as is required to garner the attention of otherwise useless nits=
.
>
*smirk*
On Feb 2, 3:48=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that ca=
n
> > always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
> > other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
> > each side.
>
> I wasn't confused with his answer.
> I was confused as to why he felt the need to wallow in pointless,
> useless semantics.
>
Uh-oh... now you've done it.
On Feb 2, 3:48 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that can
> > always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
> > other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
> > each side.
>
> I wasn't confused with his answer.
> I was confused as to why he felt the need to wallow in pointless,
> useless semantics.
Probably because you can't turn off all the lights in the church
during mass?
-Kevin
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:05:19 -0600, zxcvbob <[email protected]>
wrote:
>SteveBell wrote:
>
>> If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
>> one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
>> both halves of the door are closed?
>
>The upper door needs a window... or there could just be a lower door.
>
>> 'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
>> the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
>> (has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
Both? So it breaks into crumbs, but sticks to the middle layer?
Cool.
>
>Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
If you can't get Plexiglas, limit your enrolment to Plexikids.
>Bob
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Upscale wrote:
>>> "zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
>>>> cutting it in half...
>>> Do the state rules say how or what height the window must be? With a
>>> bottom door in place to start, adults can see in as needed so a window
>>> shouldn't be needed there.
>>>
>>> You can go with a full door and cut it in half if you think it might be
>>> easier, but essentially you're fitting two doors into an existing space.
>>> I'd install the bottom door first just to get an effective working
>>> partition in there as soon as possible and then fit the upper door with
>>> window as needed.
>>>
>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>> It's very frustrating to have just gotten the kids settled down from the
>> trauma and drama of "losing" their parents, only to have over-protective
>> mommy come back in 15 minutes "just to check on junior." Then junior
>> starts the spaz-fest all over again and we're in for another half hour
>> of wheezing, screaming, and panting.
>>
>> Mom, Dad... drop the poop monsters off and don't come back until you're
>> taking them for good.
>>
>> rant over.
>>
>>
>
> How about one of those peep-hole lenses that people install on their front
> doors? That way, overly protective Mom or Dad could peek in on the room
> without opening the door. (make sure the door swings inward so nobody gets
> a black eye).
>
>
>
>
Would inward-swing pass fire code? Another thought is that a small
child could be behind the door, out of sight, when someone enters from
outside; bang! Another thought would be plexi, rather than glass, and
the shelf on the inside. Shelf on the inside would keep little fingers
from reaching up at the wrong moment. Have to plan for all possible
events with small ones :o)
-MIKE- wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
>> "zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
>>> cutting it in half...
>>
>> Do the state rules say how or what height the window must be? With a
>> bottom door in place to start, adults can see in as needed so a window
>> shouldn't be needed there.
>>
>> You can go with a full door and cut it in half if you think it might be
>> easier, but essentially you're fitting two doors into an existing space.
>> I'd install the bottom door first just to get an effective working
>> partition in there as soon as possible and then fit the upper door with
>> window as needed.
>>
>
> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
> It's very frustrating to have just gotten the kids settled down from the
> trauma and drama of "losing" their parents, only to have over-protective
> mommy come back in 15 minutes "just to check on junior." Then junior
> starts the spaz-fest all over again and we're in for another half hour
> of wheezing, screaming, and panting.
>
> Mom, Dad... drop the poop monsters off and don't come back until you're
> taking them for good.
>
> rant over.
>
>
How about one of those peep-hole lenses that people install on their front
doors? That way, overly protective Mom or Dad could peek in on the room
without opening the door. (make sure the door swings inward so nobody gets
a black eye).
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
> zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> -snip-
>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>
> I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
> pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
> thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
> commercial usage]
>
> Jim
Nobody else said it, so I will- talk to your local code people and/or
your insurance carrier. The rulebook for schools and daycare would
probably apply. I don't think a residential door would pass muster, or
last long. I think you are looking at metal frame and fire-rated door,
and wired glass for the window. Leastways, that is what I have always
seen used in that application. And unless the room has another exit,
not sure a dutch door would be allowed- too confusing in the dark and smoke.
If your church is broke, check out Habitat ReStore, even if you have to
drive a couple towns over. The ones I have been in usually have a decent
selection of ripout commercial doors, and since Habitat is church-based,
they would likely cut you a break on the price.
--
aem sends...
When growing up my dad's shop built on the back of the house
8' concrete... had just that. A large home made dutch door.
I support getting a solid fire door - they are heavy and will provide
support when cut. Might be a safety issue as well - save another headache.
The home made ones were built with 1/2" marine plywood. The ply was the
central section and large 6' wide boards framed it. They were 2x6's.
They were slotted to allow the ply within.
I think the idea of pre-hanging it in the first place is Great!!!
Martin
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 2/1/2009 12:49 PM zxcvbob spake thus:
>
>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks? And what
>> about cutting a 20" square hole in the top half and framing in a
>> Plexiglass panel? Would the hinges already be in the right place if I
>> start with a pre-hung door? (I know I'd need to add a second pair of
>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
>> cutting it in half...
>
> I was going to do just this (install a Dutch door) for someone recently.
>
> Don't use a hollow-core door: use a solid door. No patching or filling
> necessary. Leave at least 1/8" clearance between doors.
>
> Yes, hang it by all 4 hinges first, then cut (duh!).
>
> You may want to consider adding a shelf to the bottom half; usual way is
> to reduce the height of the bottom door by the thickness of the shelf.
> Add supports on both sides as needed.
>
>
"zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
And you might consider something tinted enough that children inside might
not notice parents looking through as much, but those same parents can still
see what's going on to some degree.
On Feb 3, 12:39=A0pm, mm <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:49:31 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>
> >> There is no such thing. =A0It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
> >> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. =A0When used,
> >> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
> >> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
> >> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
> >> side then you can see the other way.
>
> >Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how that
> >very thing works.
>
> >I'm confused. =A0 :-)
>
> I don't have direct experience with police line-ups, but there
> absolutely is vinyl or polyethylene sheeting that is more transparent
> in one direction than in the other. =A0 It's almost white on one side,
> and brown on the other, and people on the brown side can see through
> it pretty well, but on the white side, the whiteness must make the
> pupils close down and one really can't see anything on the other side.
> Maybe if you put your eye right up to it, you could, but I don't know,
> I haven't tried that.
>
> I think I've seen other designs as well.
>
> I don't see why a day care place couldn't use this. =A0It doesn't have
> any sharp edges.
>
> The plastic can be used alone or it can be stuck to lexan or glass
> sheeting. =A0 Even then it would be no more dangerous than a plain glass
> window, maybe less.
>
> If you can't find this at a fabric shop or plastic shop, email me and
> I'll find out where we got it.
Sign guys use that stuff. They print on it and stick it on city busses
with adverts etc.
The passengers can see out quite will, although at reduced light
levels.
And you're right, it is very difficult to see through, although whilst
picking nits, I would have to say that technically, the tiny holes are
the same dimension regardless....as I drift off in b o r e d o m.....
The only real visual 'diode', is a webcam.. or any other kind of cam,
but not a cam'el', because when you lift up a camel's tail, and peek
inside, you don't get to see what the camel sees. Or so I'm
told.....told you I was bored...
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:49:31 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>
>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When used,
>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>> side then you can see the other way.
>>
>
>Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how that
>very thing works.
>
>I'm confused. :-)
I don't have direct experience with police line-ups, but there
absolutely is vinyl or polyethylene sheeting that is more transparent
in one direction than in the other. It's almost white on one side,
and brown on the other, and people on the brown side can see through
it pretty well, but on the white side, the whiteness must make the
pupils close down and one really can't see anything on the other side.
Maybe if you put your eye right up to it, you could, but I don't know,
I haven't tried that.
I think I've seen other designs as well.
I don't see why a day care place couldn't use this. It doesn't have
any sharp edges.
The plastic can be used alone or it can be stuck to lexan or glass
sheeting. Even then it would be no more dangerous than a plain glass
window, maybe less.
If you can't find this at a fabric shop or plastic shop, email me and
I'll find out where we got it.
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:21:23 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Make the shelf big with overhang on each side and support underneath, if
>you like.
>That way, if can be used for a sign in/out sheets and whatever else your
>church uses or needs for checking in/out the kids.
Reminds me of a Cashier's window or an old military type pharmacy
window.
This Cashier was cautious and really didn't want anyone behind the
door, all business was over the solid door/shelf...but I'm here to do
an audit. "Can't come in"
A few weeks later I had the door removed from the Cashier's office and
the door stood in the hall next morning.
All because of a fire alarm sensor :-/
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 2/1/2009 12:49 PM zxcvbob spake thus:
>
>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks? And what
>> about cutting a 20" square hole in the top half and framing in a
>> Plexiglass panel? Would the hinges already be in the right place if I
>> start with a pre-hung door? (I know I'd need to add a second pair of
>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
>> cutting it in half...
>
> I was going to do just this (install a Dutch door) for someone recently.
>
> Don't use a hollow-core door: use a solid door. No patching or filling
> necessary. Leave at least 1/8" clearance between doors.
>
> Yes, hang it by all 4 hinges first, then cut (duh!).
>
> You may want to consider adding a shelf to the bottom half; usual way is
> to reduce the height of the bottom door by the thickness of the shelf.
> Add supports on both sides as needed.
>
What he said. I've done this, too. Solid door, cut, with another hinge
for the orphaned side, and you're good to go.
Make the shelf big with overhang on each side and support underneath, if
you like.
That way, if can be used for a sign in/out sheets and whatever else your
church uses or needs for checking in/out the kids.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Upscale wrote:
> "zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges *before*
>> cutting it in half...
>
> Do the state rules say how or what height the window must be? With a bottom
> door in place to start, adults can see in as needed so a window shouldn't be
> needed there.
>
> You can go with a full door and cut it in half if you think it might be
> easier, but essentially you're fitting two doors into an existing space. I'd
> install the bottom door first just to get an effective working partition in
> there as soon as possible and then fit the upper door with window as needed.
>
I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
It's very frustrating to have just gotten the kids settled down from the
trauma and drama of "losing" their parents, only to have over-protective
mommy come back in 15 minutes "just to check on junior." Then junior
starts the spaz-fest all over again and we're in for another half hour
of wheezing, screaming, and panting.
Mom, Dad... drop the poop monsters off and don't come back until you're
taking them for good.
rant over.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
> zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> -snip-
>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>
> I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
> pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
> thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
> commercial usage]
>
> Jim
I just noticed that this was cross posted to alt.home.repair,
so it might be a bit daunting to weekend warrior.
But for most woodworking guys, even a moderately skilled
hobbyist, this isn't a big deal at all.
I'd say the test might be, if you already have the tools to do it,
can envision the processes and procedures needed to do it,
you're probably qualified to do it.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>-snip-
>>>How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above
>>>the knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>>
>>I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
>>pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
>>thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
>>commercial usage]
>
>Nobody else said it, so I will- talk to your local code people and/or
>your insurance carrier. The rulebook for schools and daycare would
>probably apply. I don't think a residential door would pass muster,
>or last long. I think you are looking at metal frame and fire-rated
>door, and wired glass for the window. Leastways, that is what I have
>always seen used in that application. And unless the room has
>another exit, not sure a dutch door would be allowed- too confusing
>in the dark and smoke.
>
>If your church is broke, check out Habitat ReStore, even if you have
>to drive a couple towns over. The ones I have been in usually have a
>decent selection of ripout commercial doors, and since Habitat is
>church-based, they would likely cut you a break on the price.
aem is right--check your local code.
If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
both halves of the door are closed?
'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
(has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA
-MIKE- wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
>> "zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> hinges.) The door probably needs to be hung on all 4 hinges
>>> *before* cutting it in half...
>>
>> Do the state rules say how or what height the window must be? With
>> a
>> bottom door in place to start, adults can see in as needed so a
>> window shouldn't be needed there.
>>
>> You can go with a full door and cut it in half if you think it
>> might
>> be easier, but essentially you're fitting two doors into an
>> existing
>> space. I'd install the bottom door first just to get an effective
>> working partition in there as soon as possible and then fit the
>> upper door with window as needed.
>>
>
> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When used,
for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
side then you can see the other way.
> It's very frustrating to have just gotten the kids settled down from
> the trauma and drama of "losing" their parents, only to have
> over-protective mommy come back in 15 minutes "just to check on
> junior." Then junior starts the spaz-fest all over again and we're
> in for another half hour of wheezing, screaming, and panting.
>
> Mom, Dad... drop the poop monsters off and don't come back until
> you're taking them for good.
>
> rant over.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
J. Clarke wrote:
>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>
> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When used,
> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
> side then you can see the other way.
>
Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how that
very thing works.
I'm confused. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>
>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you
>> can
>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When
>> used,
>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a
>> mirror.
>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>> side then you can see the other way.
>>
>
> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how
> that
> very thing works.
>
> I'm confused. :-)
The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
> >
>>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you can
>>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When used,
>>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a mirror.
>>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>>> side then you can see the other way.
>>
>> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how that
>> very thing works.
>>
>> I'm confused. :-)
>
> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that can
> always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
> other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
> each side.
>
Read my reply to John.
Do you guys get woodies from bringing up pointless and useless
semantics? :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that can
> always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
> other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
> each side.
>
I wasn't confused with his answer.
I was confused as to why he felt the need to wallow in pointless,
useless semantics.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
J. Clarke wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you
>>> can
>>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When
>>> used,
>>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
>>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a
>>> mirror.
>>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
>>> side then you can see the other way.
>>>
>> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how
>> that
>> very thing works.
>>
>> I'm confused. :-)
>
> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
>
Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results with
the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger because
there's no ham in it. So what? We all no what we're talking about.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>> >
>>>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
>>>>
>>>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you
>>>> can see through it to whichever side has the brighter light.
>>>> When
>>>> used, for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the
>>>> lineup side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup
>>>> sees
>>>> a mirror. If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on
>>>> the witness side then you can see the other way.
>>>
>>> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how
>>> that very thing works.
>>>
>>> I'm confused. :-)
>>
>> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that
>> can always be seen through from one side and that always reflects
>> from the other side. As he explained, it depends on different light
>> levels on each side.
>>
>
> Read my reply to John.
>
> Do you guys get woodies from bringing up pointless and useless
> semantics? :-)
Welcome to USENET.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke wrote:
> > -MIKE- wrote:
> >> J. Clarke wrote:
> >>>> I wish they would allow one way mirror glass in nurseries.
> >>> There is no such thing. It's just a semitransparent mirror--you=20
> >>> can
> >>> see through it to whichever side has the brighter light. When=20
> >>> used,
> >>> for example, in a police lineup, the bright light is on the lineup
> >>> side, the dim light on the witness side, so the lineup sees a=20
> >>> mirror.
> >>> If you dim the lights on that side and turn them up on the witness
> >>> side then you can see the other way.
> >>>
> >> Hmmm, you say there is no such thing, then go on to describe how=20
> >> that
> >> very thing works.
> >>
> >> I'm confused. :-)
> >=20
> > The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results with
> the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
>=20
> That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger because
> there's no ham in it. So what? We all no what we're talking about.
>
IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up not =
from its constituents.
P D Q=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -MIKE-
>=20
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
PDQ wrote:
>>> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it so.
>>>
>>
>> Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results with
>> the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
>>
>> That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger because
>> there's no ham in it. So what? We all no what we're talking about.
>>
>
> IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up not from its constituents.
>
> P D Q
That would make you treasurer of the club for pointless and useless
information.
How often do you guys hold your meetings? :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
> >>> The mirror is not directional, it is the lighting that makes it =
so.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Right, but google "one way mirror" and you get a thousand results =
with
> >> the same thing you posted, including from companies that make them.
> >>
> >> That's like telling someone there's no such thing as hamburger =
because
> >> there's no ham in it. So what? We all no what we're talking =
about.
> >>
> >=20
> > IIRC the burger got its name from the burg where it first showed up =
not from its constituents.
> >=20
> > P D Q=20
>=20
> That would make you treasurer of the club for pointless and useless=20
> information.
> How often do you guys hold your meetings? :-p
>=20
As often as is required to garner the attention of otherwise useless =
nits.
P D Q
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -MIKE-
>=20
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
[email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 2, 3:48 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>>> There's no such thing as a "one-way" mirror--that is, a mirror that can
>>> always be seen through from one side and that always reflects from the
>>> other side. As he explained, it depends on different light levels on
>>> each side.
>> I wasn't confused with his answer.
>> I was confused as to why he felt the need to wallow in pointless,
>> useless semantics.
>
> Probably because you can't turn off all the lights in the church
> during mass?
>
> -Kevin
Since we've gone there....
Most churches have more than one light switch.
You don't need "all-light/no-light" for them to work.
Less-light/more-light works fine, as often does a direct light shining
on the "blind" side or simply unscrewing any bulb that is directly above
the door on the "seeing" side.
We're talking children here, not hardened criminals standing for a lineup.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>> That would make you treasurer of the club for pointless and useless
>> information.
>> How often do you guys hold your meetings? :-p
>>
> As often as is required to garner the attention of otherwise useless nits.
>
> P D Q
Useless nits, right.
Some of us actually offered useful advice to the OP and others of you....
Hmmm, which are useless again?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
In article <[email protected]>,
"Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I support getting a solid fire door - they are heavy and will provide
> support when cut. Might be a safety issue as well - save another headache.
If nothing else, make certain any dutch door for a nursery will support
kids hanging off of it and swinging wildly. It will happen, although
(presumably) against the rules, and the door needs to withstand the
weight and torque. This of course also calls for beefy hinges,
especially for the lower portion. I would not trust a hollow core door
for this.
Even if code doesn't require it, a glass (or plexiglass or whatever)
panel is a really good idea in this age of liability and lawsuits and
fears of child abuse, whether well-founded or not. Over the past few
years, they've installed glass panels in all the nursery, classroom, and
office doors in my church.
--
Andrew Erickson
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot
Not true about the hollow core doors.
I had to make some off standard size doors and started with hollow cores. I
cut them to size, knocked the cardboard stiffener out of the way on the open
edge and milled a piece to fit the gap and glued it in.
Once I sanded the edges it looked almost like the factory edge.
"zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> zxcvbob wrote:
>> SteveBell wrote:
>>
>>> If code requires a window in the door, then you'll likely have to have
>>> one even if you make it a Dutch door. How else would you look in if
>>> both halves of the door are closed?
>>
>> The upper door needs a window... or there could just be a lower door.
>>
>>> 'Round here, all glass within four feet of a door is required to be of
>>> the safety variety--either tempered (breaks into crumbs), or laminated
>>> (has a central layer of plastic like auto glass), or both.
>>
>>
>> Definitely some kind of safety glass, or Plexiglas. I knew that much.
>>
>> Bob
>
>
> Woman from the church talked to a finish carpenter (or maybe a cabinet
> maker) yesterday and he said it couldn't be done -- even with a solid core
> door because the panels would come apart if it was cut. ??? Of course, I
> don't know what she really asked him.
>
> I have a table saw, jointer, and router. I may just make a door from
> scratch and use Formica for the door skins instead of Luan to make it more
> durable. How hard could it be? (if it's a disaster, I'll learn
> something, and no one else has to know :-) Spruce 2x6's aren't that
> expensive...
>
> I should probably hang it before I apply the skins so they don't chip at
> the edges if the door needs to be trimmed.
>
> (Somebody stop me)
>
> Bob
zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
-snip-
>How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
commercial usage]
Jim
zxcvbob wrote:
> aemeijers wrote:
>> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>> zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> -snip-
>>>> How hard would it be to cut a hollow-core door in two just above the
>>>> knob and repair the cut edges by gluing in wooden blocks?
>>>
>>> I wouldn't even attempt it with a hollow core. Have you priced a
>>> pre-hung Dutch door? I'd trust it a lot further than something
>>> thrown together. [especially in what would be essentially a
>>> commercial usage]
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>> Nobody else said it, so I will- talk to your local code people and/or
>> your insurance carrier. The rulebook for schools and daycare would
>> probably apply. I don't think a residential door would pass muster, or
>> last long. I think you are looking at metal frame and fire-rated door,
>> and wired glass for the window. Leastways, that is what I have always
>> seen used in that application. And unless the room has another exit,
>> not sure a dutch door would be allowed- too confusing in the dark and
>> smoke.
>>
>> If your church is broke, check out Habitat ReStore, even if you have
>> to drive a couple towns over. The ones I have been in usually have a
>> decent selection of ripout commercial doors, and since Habitat is
>> church-based, they would likely cut you a break on the price.
>>
>> --
>> aem sends...
>
>
>
> I appreciate that. I'll check with the insurance company. This is a
> little country church out in the middle of nowhere and I really doubt
> the county/inspector cares. Still, we want to do things right.
>
> A fire door doesn't make any sense because the wall is not going to be a
> firewall. Originally it was just going to be a temporary partition, but
> a wall is cheaper for this one. Other rooms are being walled off with
> partitions...
>
> Bob
If it's out in the middle of nowhere, all the more reason to pay
attention to fire codes, adequate exits, co and smoke detectors, etc.
The door should not, it seems, open inward for two reasons: hitting a
child who is sitting or standing behind the door, and for exit in case
of fire. Is it in a basement? Near furnace or water heater?
What about a plain, sturdy storm door with plexi instead of glass?