Needed a file for a project.
A trip to Home Depot and there hanging in a blister pack
on the wall was a package labeled "Nicholson", a name I
have associated with files for as far back as I can remember.
Grabbed a 10" (250 mm) flat bastard package and started
scanning it.
Seems the name "Nicholson" is now controlled by the
Apex Tool Group, an investment group located in Sparks, MD
with manufacturing facilities in Mexico.
Looks like at least some of my money spent to buy a file,
has created employment opportunities in Mexico.
Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
I'm concerned.
A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
Lew
On 3/22/2015 5:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
> unfair pay.
> It's the free market.
>
>
The pay for athletes can be justified the same way. The owners are
often billionaires and the team evidently brings in the dollars.
Unfortunately, dad can't afford to take the kids to the game, but many
times they are sold out.
I guess as long as people pay the price and buy the beer it will continue.
Not to mention that the Kardashians truly deserve the big buck for their
contribution to our society.
On 3/23/2015 12:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 11:51:31 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>>>
>>> They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled
>>> labor, and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
>>
>> that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging
>> the can up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like
>> guy on the assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and
>> attaching lug nuts. I think an assembly line worker would might be
>> easier to replace, you have to actually build up your physical
>> strength and stamina to run along side a garbage truck all day and
>> in all kinds of weather and tossing trash into the back of the
>> trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized, provided by the waste
>> collection company, and they are often full.
>>
>
> Don't your trucks have "automatic lifters"?
Not where I live now. Before the "special container" was lifted with an
articulating arm to the top of the truck and dumped.
>
> Our G-men (and women) roll the containers to the side of the truck,
> hook 'em up and pull a lever.
Ours are this way now but only use the lifter if they absolutely cannot
lift the can.
>
> Granted, they do have to lift the non-containerized debris, but WM
> has rules regarding what we can put out as normal trash vs. what we
> need to call in. For large items, like furniture and appliances, they
> often send a truck with a crane.
>
> That said, I grew up in NYC. I'm pretty sure that back then the G men
> were indeed highly skilled technicians, extensively trained in 3
> aspects:
>
> 1 - Smashing brand new galvanized cans on the edge of the truck in
> precisely the correct manner such that the lid will never, ever fit
> securely again.
>
> 2a - Shifting each homeowner's cans at least 3 houses to the left or
> right so that you had to go searching for your cans. In addition,
> one can will have been left 2-3 houses to the right, the other 2-3
> houses to the left. 2b - In all cases, the non-fitting lid will not
> be shifted to same location as the can itself.
>
> 3 - Placing cans on the sidewalk in such a manner that they will
> prevent pedestrians from walking in a straight line. Some cans will
> be placed standing on the street side of the sidewalk, other will be
> placed lying down on the right, still others will left dead center.
>
> The exception to Rule #3 is that all cans will be left standing up on
> rainy days so as to collect as much water as possible.
>
Apparently all 3 steps you mention above is a "union" approved method.
I recall those days in Texas. ;~)
Today the waste collection provides their, almost double sized, wheeled
collection cans and they are much more gentle with them.
On 3/21/2015 8:28 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
> ---------------------------------------------
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>> that is not helping.
> ---------------------------------------------
> Those vehicles supply the world market, not just the USA.
>
> Still remember when FoMoCo closed the Flat Rock, MI casting plant
> in the mid 1970's and moved it to Mexico.
>
> I was directly involved in supplying the electrical automation to the
> OEM who supplied the material handling systems along about '71-'72.
>
> IOW, Flat Rock was a brand new facility.
>
> They had just about worked the start-up bugs out.
>
> As far as the job situation in Mexico is concerned, every little bit
> helps.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Those that come here typically are not specialized in manufacturing so
much as yard work and custodial.
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> > On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
> >>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
> >>>>> I'm concerned.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lew
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
> >>>> that is not helping.
> >>>
> >>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
> >>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
> >>
> >> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
> >> says that is good though.
> >>
> >>
> > California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>
> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>
> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>
> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>
> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>
> --
> Jeff
re: "People are losing jobs when they post something that someone else disagrees with"
That has been going on for as long as there have been people with authority over others.
Replace the word "post" with write, scribe, chisel, sing, dance or any other form of communication and you'll find examples of people being fired (or worse) for their opinions since the beginning of humanity.
On 3/21/2015 6:22 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Needed a file for a project.
>
> A trip to Home Depot and there hanging in a blister pack
> on the wall was a package labeled "Nicholson", a name I
> have associated with files for as far back as I can remember.
>
> Grabbed a 10" (250 mm) flat bastard package and started
> scanning it.
>
> Seems the name "Nicholson" is now controlled by the
> Apex Tool Group, an investment group located in Sparks, MD
> with manufacturing facilities in Mexico.
>
> Looks like at least some of my money spent to buy a file,
> has created employment opportunities in Mexico.
>
> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
> I'm concerned.
>
> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>
>
> Lew
>
>
You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
that is not helping.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:24:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 4:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
>> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>
>
>No, so I got an education and went in a different direction, though in
>manufacturing. Kwityerbitchin and do the same if you don't like it.
>
>You deserve a safe working place and a fair wage for the work you do.
>Nothing more.
If you've accepted the wage, it's fair. It takes two to have a
contract.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:33:29 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/22/15 6:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>>>>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>>>>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>>>>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>>>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>
>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
>>> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>
>> Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
>> right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
>> That's where the left's policies lead.
>>
>
>Exactly.
>If fun had anything at all to do with the equation, then Athletes DO
>deserve to make millions. :-)
Then so do I! :-(
;-)
On 3/22/2015 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
snip
>>>
>>
>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>
> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
Good question but most all laborers deal with this every day. If your
job requires physical activity it is likely going to have some risk. I
think a roofer probably has one of the most dangerous job.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
---------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:
> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
> that is not helping.
---------------------------------------------
Those vehicles supply the world market, not just the USA.
Still remember when FoMoCo closed the Flat Rock, MI casting plant
in the mid 1970's and moved it to Mexico.
I was directly involved in supplying the electrical automation to the
OEM who supplied the material handling systems along about '71-'72.
IOW, Flat Rock was a brand new facility.
They had just about worked the start-up bugs out.
As far as the job situation in Mexico is concerned, every little bit
helps.
Lew
On 3/21/2015 6:39 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/21/2015 6:22 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> Needed a file for a project.
>>
>> A trip to Home Depot and there hanging in a blister pack
>> on the wall was a package labeled "Nicholson", a name I
>> have associated with files for as far back as I can remember.
>>
>> Grabbed a 10" (250 mm) flat bastard package and started
>> scanning it.
>>
>> Seems the name "Nicholson" is now controlled by the
>> Apex Tool Group, an investment group located in Sparks, MD
>> with manufacturing facilities in Mexico.
>>
>> Looks like at least some of my money spent to buy a file,
>> has created employment opportunities in Mexico.
>>
>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>> I'm concerned.
>>
>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
> that is not helping.
Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
There is a huge shipping warehouse just east of El Paso (Socorro, TX)
where you can buy re-manufactured appliances of all sorts...made in
Juarez, Mexico.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>
>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>
>>>
>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>
>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>> job as "fun."
>>>
>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>
>
>I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>environment?
>
>How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.
On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>> environment?
>>
>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>
> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
> it slows them down.
>
To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
safety equipment.
I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
being burned by the scorching hot shingles.
On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>
> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
> time you have your house roofed.
>
Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
worth and what some one is paid.
On 3/23/2015 11:54 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/23/15 10:41 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 7:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually brings
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the work force? Why do certain laborers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter more than our educators? Entitlement. Is
>>>>>>>>>>>> it even a small wonder why China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>> workers have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor
>>>>>>>>>>>> force was way over paid for their production.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes China and Mexico built-products are on
>>>>>>>>>>>> occasion not of the same quality than what we can
>>>>>>>>>>>> build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay for.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 50 years ago we imported way less quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> products from Japan than we do from China and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser
>>>>>>>>>>>> quality American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement issues
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have now
>>>>>>>>>>> brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth
>>>>>>>>>>> $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big,
>>>>>>>>>> sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all day
>>>>>>>>>> sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind of
>>>>>>>>> money. I've never heard her once describe her job as
>>>>>>>>> "fun."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her
>>>>>>>> about her working conditions or her risk of being injured
>>>>>>>> on the job, for instance. I don't work on the assembly
>>>>>>>> line, I just know some folks who have. I agree with you
>>>>>>>> that they are over-payed, but not as over-payed as you
>>>>>>>> think they are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are
>>>>>>> dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in place
>>>>>>> on every assembly line in this country. If there some that
>>>>>>> aren't safe, they should be made safer. But what does that
>>>>>>> have to do with employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather
>>>>>>> have higher pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety
>>>>>>> gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs
>>>>>>> are way more dangerous than any auto assembly line job.
>>>>>>> Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus benefits and
>>>>>>> retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job
>>>>>> will take its toll on your body. I have more of a problem
>>>>>> with what professional athletes get. Income-inequity is a
>>>>>> problem. I was just reading about a new organization
>>>>>> concerned with the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so
>>>>>> than income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have
>>>>>> all of the answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work
>>>>> is worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you
>>>>> to watch sports and you can surely pay double what the
>>>>> contractor asks next time you have your house roofed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference
>>>> between worth and what some one is paid.
>>>>
>>>
>>> From an economics view, that is the very definition of worth.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> But from an actual personal need....which is worth more to you?
>> Someone that helps you or someone that entertains you?
>
> We're conflating two different types of worth: economic and that of
> merit or virtue. The former is not subjective, for the most part, while
> the latter is completely subjective.
>
> I am making a moral judgment when I say I don't think an auto line
> worker with a GED is worth the same in compensation from his company as
> someone who spent years and money to get educated, trained, and
> experience in their field. Because from an economic standpoint, there
> are worth whatever their employer pays them.
>
> You are saying the same thing with the athlete/teacher comparison.
>
> In the end, since we don't all share the same morals and values, the
> free market and the democratic process is the best way to do it. Thank
> God we live in a country where we can freely debate these things while
> typing from our relatively cheap computers. :-)
>
>
Mike I think we both are thinking the same, I'm obliviously not stating
my view quite how I want it to be received, not being highly educated. ;~)
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>-MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>> environment?
>>
>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>
>I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>its toll on your body.
>I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>Income-inequity is a problem.
>I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>
Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.
On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>> environment?
>>
>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>
> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
> it slows them down.
>
Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
isn't any fun. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
>> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
>> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
>> time you have your house roofed.
>>
>
> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
> worth and what some one is paid.
>
From an economics view, that is the very definition of worth.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>
>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>> it slows them down.
>>
> To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
> safety equipment.
> I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
> down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
> being burned by the scorching hot shingles.
>
I think that foam grips the roof, too, and keeps them from sliding down.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/23/15 10:41 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 7:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually brings
>>>>>>>>>>> to the work force? Why do certain laborers,
>>>>>>>>>>> factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that
>>>>>>>>>>> matter more than our educators? Entitlement. Is
>>>>>>>>>>> it even a small wonder why China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> workers have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor
>>>>>>>>>>> force was way over paid for their production.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes China and Mexico built-products are on
>>>>>>>>>>> occasion not of the same quality than what we can
>>>>>>>>>>> build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay for.
>>>>>>>>>>> 50 years ago we imported way less quality
>>>>>>>>>>> products from Japan than we do from China and
>>>>>>>>>>> Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser
>>>>>>>>>>> quality American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement issues
>>>>>>>>>>> and the unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have now
>>>>>>>>>> brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth
>>>>>>>>>> $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big,
>>>>>>>>> sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all day
>>>>>>>>> sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind of
>>>>>>>> money. I've never heard her once describe her job as
>>>>>>>> "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her
>>>>>>> about her working conditions or her risk of being injured
>>>>>>> on the job, for instance. I don't work on the assembly
>>>>>>> line, I just know some folks who have. I agree with you
>>>>>>> that they are over-payed, but not as over-payed as you
>>>>>>> think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are
>>>>>> dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in place
>>>>>> on every assembly line in this country. If there some that
>>>>>> aren't safe, they should be made safer. But what does that
>>>>>> have to do with employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather
>>>>>> have higher pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety
>>>>>> gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs
>>>>>> are way more dangerous than any auto assembly line job.
>>>>>> Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus benefits and
>>>>>> retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job
>>>>> will take its toll on your body. I have more of a problem
>>>>> with what professional athletes get. Income-inequity is a
>>>>> problem. I was just reading about a new organization
>>>>> concerned with the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so
>>>>> than income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have
>>>>> all of the answers.
>>>>>
>>>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work
>>>> is worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you
>>>> to watch sports and you can surely pay double what the
>>>> contractor asks next time you have your house roofed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference
>>> between worth and what some one is paid.
>>>
>>
>> From an economics view, that is the very definition of worth.
>>
>>
>>
> But from an actual personal need....which is worth more to you?
> Someone that helps you or someone that entertains you?
We're conflating two different types of worth: economic and that of
merit or virtue. The former is not subjective, for the most part, while
the latter is completely subjective.
I am making a moral judgment when I say I don't think an auto line
worker with a GED is worth the same in compensation from his company as
someone who spent years and money to get educated, trained, and
experience in their field. Because from an economic standpoint, there
are worth whatever their employer pays them.
You are saying the same thing with the athlete/teacher comparison.
In the end, since we don't all share the same morals and values, the
free market and the democratic process is the best way to do it. Thank
God we live in a country where we can freely debate these things while
typing from our relatively cheap computers. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/2015 7:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>>> it slows them down.
>>>
>> To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
>> safety equipment.
>> I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
>> down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
>> being burned by the scorching hot shingles.
>>
>
> I think that foam grips the roof, too, and keeps them from sliding down.
It does that but some of the younger guys don't use the foam, they just
stand in one spot and bend over.
On 3/22/2015 7:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly
>>>>> line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>> $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
>>> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
>>> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
>>> time you have your house roofed.
>>>
>>
>> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
>> worth and what some one is paid.
>>
>
> From an economics view, that is the very definition of worth.
>
>
>
But from an actual personal need....which is worth more to you? Someone
that helps you or someone that entertains you?
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
Lew
---------------------------------------------------
Leon wrote:
>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico
>>> and
>>> that is not helping.
------------------------------------------------
Max wrote:
>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners,
>> kitchen
>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
---------------------------------------------------
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
> Lew says that is good though.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sorry to see your company lost a valued customer; however, doubt your
labor costs were the only cause the loss.
Unless you are in a business where the only value you bring to the
table is low price, my guess is that somebody took their eye off the
ball and truly forgot why this now ex-customer became your customer
in the first place.
Just a guess.
And yes, if we are to loose a USA company to another country, then
Mexico is the least painful since hopefully the move will help relieve
the pressure on our entry level labor pool by creating jobs in Mexico.
Lew
On 3/22/2015 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>
> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
> into line...
>
>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>
> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>
And firefighters.... ;-)
On 3/22/2015 10:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>>>> that is not helping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
>>>> says that is good though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>>
>> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>>
>> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
>> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>>
>> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>>
>> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>>
>> --
>> Jeff
>
> re: "People are losing jobs when they post something that someone else disagrees with"
>
> That has been going on for as long as there have been people with authority over others.
>
> Replace the word "post" with write, scribe, chisel, sing, dance or any other form of communication and you'll find examples of people being fired (or worse) for their opinions since the beginning of humanity.
>
Smoke signals, jungle drums? ;-)
On 3/22/2015 10:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>>>> that is not helping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
>>>> Lew
>>>> says that is good though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>>
>> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>>
>> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
>> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>>
>> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>>
>> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>>
>
> Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
> complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
> appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
> overseas at a much lower cost?
Exactly.
On 3/22/2015 7:45 PM, Bill wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>>>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>>>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions
>>>>> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
>>>>> work on
>>>>> the assembly line, I just know
>>>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
>>>>> but not
>>>>> as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
>>>> than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
>>>> there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
>>>> it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
>>>> deserved the pay they were getting.
>>>
>>> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
>>> absolutely work as hard for their pay...
>>> Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
>>> country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
>>> can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
>>> collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
>>> and grab the garbage cans too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
>> and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
>>
>> Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
>> I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
>> not some.
>>
> The problem getting that is that the agencies that accredit schools
> aren't measuring vocational skills. Put welding on the list, and they
> wood have welding at every school--and in short order!
>
And the trade schools would be bitching that you're taking their income
away.
On 03/23/2015 08:51 AM, Leon wrote:
> that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can
> up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the
> assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I
> think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have
> to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along
> side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing
> trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,
> provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.
>
>
>
Our G men just drive the truck and deploy the power can grabber to
collect the trash without ever getting out of the truck. The recycle
guys do run down the street, but the recycle boxes are relatively small.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 3/23/2015 9:32 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 6:47 PM, Max wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly
>>>>> line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>> $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>
>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>> into line...
>>>
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>
>>
>> And firefighters.... ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Thank you for correcting me. Lets certainly not leave them out or
> police, our service men and women, and to mention again health care
> workers and our educators, or anyone that risks their lives for us.
> I think we should feel better about spending more of our money for their
> salaries than those that don't help out in the ways that these people do.
>
> BUT we have been trained to believe that we should spend our money the
> way we want and in particular we are trained to spend our money on what
> makes us feel good at the moment and not on what is good for us long
> term. We are no longer investing in our longevity as a society.
>
You've been reading my mail. :-) Or I've been reading yours. ;-)
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 2:55:42 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
...snip...
> Fifty years ago it was common for the man to work and the woman to stay=
=20
> at home and raise the family. For the most part that worked just fine=20
> and I suspect that most every thing that was purchased was of good to=20
> fine quality. Then comes the television and "commercials". Now we are=
=20
> lead to believe that every one needs and will own the product being=20
> advertized. But a single salary will not allow that. So years later mom=
=20
> goes to work and the kids are raised by baby sitters, school programs,=20
> etc. Those programs cost money. So, the kids in general, learn their=20
> values from strangers also, and this is quite confusing. The kids loose=
=20
> focus on what is the right way and wrong way to earn things and come to=
=20
> learn that they deserve what they want when they want it. =20
...snip...
re: "So years later mom goes to work and the kids are raised by baby sitte=
rs, school programs, etc. So, the kids in general, learn their values from=
strangers also..."
I think we need to soften that just a bit because many of those "baby sitte=
rs, school programs and strangers" are the same moms that had to go back to=
work. It's not like the moms went off into the abyss and their kids were l=
eft in the hands of the bad guys all day.
When my mom went back to work it was as a school aide in the school that I =
attended. I can assure you that she tried to instill the same values in the=
other kids at school that she instilled in her kids (me). She knew many of=
the other kids' their parents and would not hesitate to let the kids know =
that she wasn't afraid to talk to the parents if need be. Many of the other=
aides (and a few teachers) were parents of my friends. These "strangers" d=
id not leave their parental values (both good and bad, but mostly good) at =
home. They brought them to work and did their best to pass them along to th=
e kids in their charge.
When SWMBO (AKA my kids' mom) went back to work it was as a before school/a=
fter school baby sitter for kids whose parents worked out side of the home.=
She did her best to instill the same values in those kids as she did in ou=
rs. I think she did a pretty good job. Those kids still stay in touch with =
us. One of them just did our roof, not because he was a family friend, but =
because he presented the most professional estimate, discussed our options =
in a courteous manner and came with great references. I like to think that =
his babysitter (AKA my kids' mom) helped make him the man he is today by en=
suring he did his homework, was respectful, etc. while he was in her care.
On 3/23/2015 11:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I think we need to soften that just a bit because many of those "baby sitters, school programs and strangers" are the same moms that had to go back to work. It's not like the moms went off into the abyss and their kids were left in the hands of the bad guys all day.
>
> When my mom went back to work it was as a school aide in the school that I attended. I can assure you that she tried to instill the same values in the other kids at school that she instilled in her kids (me). She knew many of the other kids' their parents and would not hesitate to let the kids know that she wasn't afraid to talk to the parents if need be. Many of the other aides (and a few teachers) were parents of my friends. These "strangers" did not leave their parental values (both good and bad, but mostly good) at home. They brought them to work and did their best to pass them along to the kids in their charge.
>
> When SWMBO (AKA my kids' mom) went back to work it was as a before school/after school baby sitter for kids whose parents worked out side of the home. She did her best to instill the same values in those kids as she did in ours. I think she did a pretty good job. Those kids still stay in touch with us. One of them just did our roof, not because he was a family friend, but because he presented the most professional estimate, discussed our options in a courteous manner and came with great references. I like to think that his babysitter (AKA my kids' mom) helped make him the man he is today by ensuring he did his homework, was respectful, etc. while he was in her care.
>
There are many great baby sitters and caretakers, but there are some
that operate as a warehouse for kids.
Can't generalize because I've seen a couple of situation where the
sitter did a better job than the parents, but the opposite also happens.
IMO, the reason why the kids are farmed out makes a lot of difference.
If mom is working because dad has a modest paying job and it is tough
getting by, I have no problem with that.
The ones that irk me is the parent that farms out child rearing so mom
can work and buy a boat or a new Volvo instead of a Chevy.
Disclaimer: My wife did not work until the kids were in high school and
then it was only part time for a few months.
On 3/22/2015 5:22 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>
> Yep. I have a friend, who was a state trooper. He retired, because he
> was eligible. He complains that they don't allow him to come back to
> work because of double dipping. His contention is that he is already
> traained why shouldn't he save the state money by coming back to work as
> a cop. I explain that in no other place can you retire and come back to
> work and get another pension. He doesn't understand why he can't. There
> is a lot of brain washing. And I can't talk about this with him, because
> his view is so twisted.
>
>
In many state, that pension can be as much as 80% of regular pay too.
Many in his situation, if yhoung enough, take a private sector job and
pay into Social Security and then collect that later.
>
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>
>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>> into line...
>>
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>
>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>
>
> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
> unfair pay.
> It's the free market.
>
>
You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.
I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
today but not for all of the tomorrows.
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:55:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/25/2015 8:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
>>
>> 1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
>> who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).
>>
>> 2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
>> facilities.
>>
>> 3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
>> whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
>> isn't needed.
>>
>> 4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
>> take their kids where they want.
>>
>> 5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
>> you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
>> them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
>> schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.
>>
>> 6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
>> mommies".
>>
>> I'm sure there are many others.
>
>Won't work. I can work, but the teacher union and politicians won't let
>it happen.
It happened in WI. It *can* happen elsewhere. It *will* happen but
it might take a major crash first.
>My high school in Philadelphia had 3200 students and 4 or 5 people in
>the office. Where I live now, he don't have that many pupils in the
>entire school system, yet we have a full school board and many
>administrators in each of the schools and the assistants have
>assistants. .
I found a report on VT schools, a couple of years ago (which was
quickly taken down). Basically, statewide, they had a classroom
teacher for every 13 students. For every two classroom teacher, they
had not only a teacher's aid but a non-classroom teacher. That's a
student to teacher ratio of 6.5:1. That doesn't even count
administration, which was equally absurd. Yeah, there's a lot of
places to cut without even touching the students but they're
irrelevant.
On 3/22/2015 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could
> have afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1
> spoke English, I doubt they did that well.
>
>
So Bill did you factor in equipment expense, mandatory insurance, over
head, taxes, advertising, fuel costs etc?
On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>>>> take its toll on your body.
>>> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
>>> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
>>> English, I doubt they did that well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You had the choice to hire them.
>> If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
>> provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
>> getting paid market value and workers' comp.
>> Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
>> there were doing.
>>
>>
> I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
> between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
> arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
> "first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
> car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
> "rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.
>
>
Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid
>>>>>>>>>>> a salary way beyond what he actually brings to the
>>>>>>>>>>> work force? Why do certain laborers, factory
>>>>>>>>>>> workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>>>>>>>>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more
>>>>>>>>>>> than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a
>>>>>>>>>>> small wonder why China and Mexico workers have
>>>>>>>>>>> replaced American workers? Now that the US and
>>>>>>>>>>> other countries became majorly involved in world
>>>>>>>>>>> trade we now see how our labor force was way over
>>>>>>>>>>> paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often
>>>>>>>>>>> inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you
>>>>>>>>>>> get what you pay for. 50 years ago we imported way
>>>>>>>>>>> less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>>>>>>>>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and
>>>>>>>>>>> lesser quality American made. Just look at the
>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it is
>>>>>>>>>>> in because of workers with entitlement issues and
>>>>>>>>>>> the unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The
>>>>>>>>>> unions, which were needed at one time and did an
>>>>>>>>>> incredible service to the labor force, have now
>>>>>>>>>> brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth
>>>>>>>>>> $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big,
>>>>>>>>> sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all day
>>>>>>>>> sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went
>>>>>>>> through internships, training and continuing education,
>>>>>>>> had to pass licensing exams, and had 10 years experience
>>>>>>>> before she started making that kind of money. I've never
>>>>>>>> heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her
>>>>>>> about her working conditions or her risk of being injured
>>>>>>> on the job, for instance. I don't work on the assembly
>>>>>>> line, I just know some folks who have. I agree with you
>>>>>>> that they are over-payed, but not as over-payed as you
>>>>>>> think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are
>>>>>> dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in place
>>>>>> on every assembly line in this country. If there some that
>>>>>> aren't safe, they should be made safer. But what does that
>>>>>> have to do with employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather
>>>>>> have higher pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety
>>>>>> gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are
>>>>>> way more dangerous than any auto assembly line job. Are
>>>>>> these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus benefits and
>>>>>> retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job
>>>>> will take its toll on your body. I have more of a problem with
>>>>> what professional athletes get. Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will
>>>> come into line...
>>>>
>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and
>>>>> how it can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's
>>> not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>
>>>
>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
>> make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on
>> this path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies. I
>> understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
>> shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
>> today but not for all of the tomorrows.
>>
>
> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid well?
Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society the
more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do something that
greatly benefits society as you would work playing a game. Which would
you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes. I
just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more important.
Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a necessity.
> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be paid well.
>
> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not deserve
> that money?
Here is how I am looking at it.
You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of
25 million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.
You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the traps.
Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most therefore
being the most deserved?
Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs.
A year from now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all
but forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what
you have done?
"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for more
than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of what you
earn.
And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can
by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to
think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is
good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:00:05 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/25/2015 9:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>
>> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
>
>> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
>
>> - Who will be responsible for this task?
>>
>> - Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?
>
>> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
>>
>
>> - What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?
>>
>> - What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?
>>
>> - Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)
>>
>> - Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."
>>
>
>Going back a number of years, schools were run like that. They have
>become bloated with top level administrators that add nothing to the
>education. Too many regulations.
>
>To implement, just set the clock back about 50 years and use the old
>playbook on how to run a school. It worked. It was much cheaper.
Exactly right. All I did is list some of the changes.
On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>
>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>> Everyday?
>>>
>>
>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>
>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>
> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
> working conditions
> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
> the assembly line, I just know
> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
> as over-payed as you think they are.
>
So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
deserved the pay they were getting.
On the other hand, Foreign labor coming over here were putting me out of
work for years. The way things have been setup, it's more beneficial to
a company to hire foriegn workers. They get away with a lot. Having
talked to recruiters and staffing firms last year, my eyes were opened
to the F'up the congress created. My Indian counterpart is buying
houses in the 5000 sq foot range, while I am 1800 sq ft.
They buy the Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus. I have been told by a few
Indian friends what they are making. So I am sure that it's not all
lower price.
--
Jeff
On 3/23/2015 6:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>
>> There are problems there too. You have homeowners with no kids that
>> don't see the benefit of having a well educated society.
>
> Bullshit! That is the most stupid statement I've seen on this group today.
> Some of us did send kids to school, and some of us homeschooled our own
> kids - so we absolutley do understand the benefit of a well educated
> society.
>
> Sorry Edwin - I like most of your posts, but this one really rubbed the
> wrong side of me...
>
No problem, you showed your lack of understanding and took a general
statement personal. Notice, you said "some of us". Right. some do,
some don't. Go to a town meeting about the budget and just listen to
some of the older people and single people bitch about the education
budget.
Notice too, I did not mention your name as one of the complainers.
Budget time is starting here. Come on over and listen.
On 3/22/2015 5:31 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>> I'm concerned.
>
>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>
> Lew
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Leon wrote:
>
>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico
>>>> and
>>>> that is not helping.
> ------------------------------------------------
> Max wrote:
>
>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners,
>>> kitchen
>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>
>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
>> Lew says that is good though.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sorry to see your company lost a valued customer; however, doubt your
> labor costs were the only cause the loss.
>
> Unless you are in a business where the only value you bring to the
> table is low price, my guess is that somebody took their eye off the
> ball and truly forgot why this now ex-customer became your customer
> in the first place.
>
> Just a guess.
>
> And yes, if we are to loose a USA company to another country, then
> Mexico is the least painful since hopefully the move will help relieve
> the pressure on our entry level labor pool by creating jobs in Mexico.
>
> Lew
>
Well that is some what of a self centered way to look at things. What
about our poor northern states having to deal with the Canadians coming
over here for jobs. LOL JUST KIDDING!
But seriously our poor USA actors are in earnest being replaced by their
Canadian counter parts. It is surprising how many of today's TV shows
pretty much have an all Canadian cast. Take Rookie Blue for example.
Scroll down to the cast names and click on the name beside the picture.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1442065/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ql_1
On 3/23/2015 6:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 3/23/2015 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this
>>>> way and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.
>>>
>>> Just so everyone is aware, Leon has been shown to be a big
>>> contributor to the Liberal Gay And Lesbian Coalition in Support of
>>> Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies, To Include Gun Control and
>>> Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies. It's been said that he even
>>> built a coffee table for their lobby...
>>>
>>
>> ,,,,,,,,,, Had I not had an in with these organizations through the
>> president, YOU, it never wood'a happened.
>
>
> Shhhhhh - I told you, my role is supposed to be secret...
>
Cat's out'a the bag. ;~)
On 3/22/2015 9:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 5:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
>> unfair pay.
>> It's the free market.
>>
>>
>
> The pay for athletes can be justified the same way. The owners are
> often billionaires and the team evidently brings in the dollars.
> Unfortunately, dad can't afford to take the kids to the game, but many
> times they are sold out.
>
> I guess as long as people pay the price and buy the beer it will continue.
>
> Not to mention that the Kardashians truly deserve the big buck for their
> contribution to our society.
Exactly. Spend the money where you want but don't let uneducated
decisions steal your money. Think about how spending money best helps
YOU out, not the way that the advertisers/other people tell you how you
should spend it. And paying big bucks to the entertainers/game players
by advertisers "is" advertizing "telling you" how to spend your money.
They pull you in with easily replaceable and an endless supply of easy
to replace fun stuff.
On 3/23/2015 1:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I wouldn't argue with you about teachers. However, in some areas they
>> make up over 70, 80 grand a year, with all those breaks and summer. :-)
>>
>> People will spend lots of money to go to professional sporting events,
>> but won't vote to raise property taxes to fund local schools. So in a
>> way they are making the choice to place entertainer above teachers.
>>
>>
>
> There are problems there too. You have homeowners with no kids that
> don't see the benefit of having a well educated society.
>
> The other problem is the value received. The US spends more per pupil
> for education than any other country, yet we are ranked about low for
> education. Why is that?
Inappropriately spending of that money. And they probably allow way too
much restriction to helping the brighter students so that Johnny does
not feel left behind. Hand that boy a trophy.
If we allowed our teachers to teach, what they probably do best, instead
of helping students memorize the progress tests and put an end to BS
behavior which they are afraid to correct or not allowed to control, it
would be a good start.
>
> Pathetic showing here for science and math.
> http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12
>
> Here we are ranked #20
> http://worldtop20.org/
>
> Here we are No. 14
> http://m.thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking
On 3/23/2015 11:50 AM, Max wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 9:32 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 6:47 PM, Max wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly
>>>>>> line
>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>>> $50k/yr
>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>> into line...
>>>>
>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And firefighters.... ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thank you for correcting me. Lets certainly not leave them out or
>> police, our service men and women, and to mention again health care
>> workers and our educators, or anyone that risks their lives for us.
>> I think we should feel better about spending more of our money for their
>> salaries than those that don't help out in the ways that these people do.
>>
>> BUT we have been trained to believe that we should spend our money the
>> way we want and in particular we are trained to spend our money on what
>> makes us feel good at the moment and not on what is good for us long
>> term. We are no longer investing in our longevity as a society.
>>
>
> You've been reading my mail. :-) Or I've been reading yours. ;-)
It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this way
and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.
On 3/22/2015 7:33 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 6:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>>>>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>>>>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>>>>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>>>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>
>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
>>> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>
>> Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
>> right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
>> That's where the left's policies lead.
>>
>
> Exactly.
> If fun had anything at all to do with the equation, then Athletes DO
> deserve to make millions. :-)
And my point in all of this is that our society has taught us to believe
that fun is an absolute in all economic equations. What if we changed
that equation to leave out fun and put in happy.
We have fun as a society spending trillions on sports and entertainment.
If we spent that money on what makes us happy we would all be better
off. IMHO
On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>
>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>
>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>> that is not helping.
>>>
>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>
>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
>> says that is good though.
>>
>>
> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
--
Jeff
On 3/22/2015 9:49 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 7:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
>> every penny of it.
>>
>
> That is the part that can be difficult to quantify. Sure, people will
> go because Clint Eastwood stars in a movie, but would it be just as good
> with Bob Westwood who earns $20 an hour?
Or a teacher? I can see where every one that does not see the problem
comes from. All of us have been brought up to think this way. But put
more emphasis on education vs. things that are not as important and we
are all better off.
Almost all of us complain about the shape that our government and our
country is in. The one thing that can make things better is to better
educate our selves, our children, and their children. But our society
glamorizes sports and entertainment over being educated so that is where
the money goes. That IMHO is a recipe for disaster.
On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>> into line...
>>>>
>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>
>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>> pay (for) them.
>>
>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>
> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>
>>
But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.
On 3/22/2015 6:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:47:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>> into line...
>>>>
>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
>>> unfair pay.
>>> It's the free market.
>>>
>>>
>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
>> make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
>> path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.
>
> If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
> every penny of it.
And that falls true in a "It's all about me" society.
>
>> I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
>> shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
>> today but not for all of the tomorrows.
>
> No, people pay for what *THEY* value. No more.
Missing it.
On 3/22/2015 7:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
> every penny of it.
>
That is the part that can be difficult to quantify. Sure, people will
go because Clint Eastwood stars in a movie, but would it be just as good
with Bob Westwood who earns $20 an hour?
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:44:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 9:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:35:18 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>>>> it slows them down.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
>>> isn't any fun. :-)
>>
>> But you can bet the boss supplies it.
>>
>Not when the boss and his crew has only been in the country for a few weeks.
Haven't seen that. The boss is a gringo.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>
>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>> into line...
>>>
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>
>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>> pay (for) them.
>
>And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>is at today as far as the economy goes.
No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>
On 3/27/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/27/2015 10:02 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>>
>>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>>
>> Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
>> amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
>> the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
>> the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
>> Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
>> I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this.
>
> You can use all the interest tables you want, but the spreadsheet makes
> quite a difference in perception. For years I just made the payment
> every month just as most people do and never thought about paying ahead.
> Then I got a spreadsheet. When I paid my mortgage every month, I'd
> enter the payment and the extra money. It was an easy visual of how
> much I'd save. It was an incentive to pay ahead. I quickly made a plan,
> but as time went by, I paid even more.
>
>
>
>
Exactly, you get immediate gratification of how any particular payment
has saved you money that would normally go to that bottomless pit, interest.
On 3/27/2015 10:02 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>
>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>
> Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
> amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
> the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
> the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
> Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
> I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>
>
>>
>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this.
You can use all the interest tables you want, but the spreadsheet makes
quite a difference in perception. For years I just made the payment
every month just as most people do and never thought about paying ahead.
Then I got a spreadsheet. When I paid my mortgage every month, I'd
enter the payment and the extra money. It was an easy visual of how
much I'd save. It was an incentive to pay ahead. I quickly made a plan,
but as time went by, I paid even more.
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>
>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>> is that simple.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>> to be taught in your education.
>>
>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>> though.
>>>
>>>
>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>> debt free since 1997.
>>
>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>
>
>LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>computer in 1986.
Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
>I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>30 year mortgage.
Interest tables will do the same thing.
>I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>not thought of this himself.
Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
the time value of money.
>Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>and then paying extra with each payment.
We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
$30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
>
>So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
>society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
>that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
>This needs to be taught.
Good idea. There are many things that need to be taught but it's not
going to happen in the schools.
>I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
>for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.
He was kidding. It's not unusual, at all, for people to pay cash for
homes. A quick search finds an article that states that 42% of
purchases were cash transactions in Nov '13.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nearly-half-of-all-homes-are-purchased-in-cash-2013-08-29
On 3/26/2015 7:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>>> is that simple.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>
>>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>>> though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>>> debt free since 1997.
>>>
>>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>> computer in 1986.
>
> Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
> problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
LOL, are you one of those?
>
>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>> 30 year mortgage.
>
> Interest tables will do the same thing.
Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>
>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>> immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>> owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>> and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>> not thought of this himself.
>
> Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
> the time value of money.
Well, it is the norm to have house payments, most don't think of not
having them. I also pointed out to him that putting extra money in on
his regular payment was like getting the same interest back as a savings
account would have done at the time. If his mortgage interest rate was
8% it was like earning 8% on the extra money he paid in each month as he
was not paying interest on that amount.
>
>> Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>> 16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>> to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>> and then paying extra with each payment.
>
> We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
> years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
> but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
> $30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
Yeah we had 2 car payments too. As we paid each off that payment went
into the house payment.
>>
>> So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
>> society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
>> that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
>> This needs to be taught.
>
> Good idea. There are many things that need to be taught but it's not
> going to happen in the schools.
Hard to say, it mostly depends on whether the big machine allows it or not.
>
>> I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
>> for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.
>
> He was kidding. It's not unusual, at all, for people to pay cash for
> homes. A quick search finds an article that states that 42% of
> purchases were cash transactions in Nov '13.
I'm still talking about 20 years ago and late 30's to early 40
somethings. IIRC no one I knew was not paying a mortgage or rent.
>
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nearly-half-of-all-homes-are-purchased-in-cash-2013-08-29
>
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:47:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>
>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>> into line...
>>>
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>
>>
>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
>> unfair pay.
>> It's the free market.
>>
>>
>You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
>make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
>path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.
If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
every penny of it.
>I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
>shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
>today but not for all of the tomorrows.
No, people pay for what *THEY* value. No more.
On 3/22/2015 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>
>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>> into line...
>>
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>
>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>
>>
> I think the health care workers, at least those at the hospital level,
> are being treated pretty well financially. They have "tough" working
> conditions too (12-hour+ shifts, as the norm, in a tough environment).
>
Some are but there are many behind the scenes that you don't see and now
that the government is involved the waste of money cut short what could
be paid to workers. It is ridiculous that you have to hire staff to
simply collect what the government owes.
On 3/22/2015 4:22 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:25 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>
>>
>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>> full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
>> prices for all the things they buy.
>>
>>
>
> Yep. I have a friend, who was a state trooper. He retired, because he
> was eligible. He complains that they don't allow him to come back to
> work because of double dipping. His contention is that he is already
> traained why shouldn't he save the state money by coming back to work as
> a cop. I explain that in no other place can you retire and come back to
> work and get another pension. He doesn't understand why he can't. There
> is a lot of brain washing. And I can't talk about this with him, because
> his view is so twisted.
I don't know why he can't retire and come back either. It is most
likely NOT double dipping. Retirement payments are almost always paid
out of an annuity. If the state would simply exempt returning retirees
from getting a second pension the matter would be solved. The actual
problem is that they want to rehire at beginning salary and not at the
same salary they were paying when originally employee. This is just one
reason my wife did not go back to work for the state after retiring.
Plus at a certain point an experienced government worker is simply
making too much money. They are replaced by cheap new hires and the
government really does not care if they are efficient or not.
On 3/23/2015 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> I wouldn't argue with you about teachers. However, in some areas they
> make up over 70, 80 grand a year, with all those breaks and summer. :-)
>
> People will spend lots of money to go to professional sporting events,
> but won't vote to raise property taxes to fund local schools. So in a
> way they are making the choice to place entertainer above teachers.
>
>
There are problems there too. You have homeowners with no kids that
don't see the benefit of having a well educated society.
The other problem is the value received. The US spends more per pupil
for education than any other country, yet we are ranked about low for
education. Why is that?
Pathetic showing here for science and math.
http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12
Here we are ranked #20
http://worldtop20.org/
Here we are No. 14
http://m.thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking
On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>
>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>
>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>> that is not helping.
>>
>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>
> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
> says that is good though.
>
>
California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:16:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
>> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
>> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
>> time you have your house roofed.
>>
>
>Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
>worth and what some one is paid.
Not at all. If someone wasn't worth what they were paid, the
transaction wouldn't happen. That's the definition of worth.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:03:05 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 4:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
Big Snip
>>> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
>>> absolutely work as hard for their pay... Those guys have to be some
>>> of the most physically fit workers in the country as a whole. At
>>> least the ones that actually lift and empty the can by themselves.
>>> And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our collectors keep
>>> up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph, and grab the
>>> garbage cans too.
>>>
>>
>> Yet, they could train orangutans to do that job in a month and they'd
>> work for whatever they picked out of the cans to eat.
>>
>>
>I think some of them are orangutans. ;~)
Our garbage man makes about 30 K a year, now mind you it is Southern
Illinois.
On 3/22/2015 6:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:16:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>> environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>
>>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
>>> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
>>> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
>>> time you have your house roofed.
>>>
>>
>> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
>> worth and what some one is paid.
>
> Not at all. If someone wasn't worth what they were paid, the
> transaction wouldn't happen. That's the definition of worth.
Which is worth more to you, A person that helps you or entertains you?
Both charge you nothing.
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>> environment?
>>
>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>
> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
> its toll on your body.
> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
> Income-inequity is a problem.
Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...
> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
On 3/25/2015 8:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
>
> 1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
> who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).
>
> 2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
> facilities.
>
> 3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
> whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
> isn't needed.
>
> 4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
> take their kids where they want.
>
> 5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
> you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
> them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
> schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.
>
> 6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
> mommies".
>
> I'm sure there are many others.
Won't work. I can work, but the teacher union and politicians won't let
it happen.
My high school in Philadelphia had 3200 students and 4 or 5 people in
the office. Where I live now, he don't have that many pupils in the
entire school system, yet we have a full school board and many
administrators in each of the schools and the assistants have
assistants. .
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:32:28 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
...snip...
> >Brilliant.
> >Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
The following are all good ideas. I just have a few questions.
> 1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
> who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).
- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
> 2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
> facilities.
- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
> 3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
> whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
> isn't needed.
- Who will be responsible for this task?
- Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?
> 4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
> take their kids where they want.
- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
> 5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
> you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
> them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
> schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.
- What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?
- What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?
- Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)
- Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."
>
> 6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
> mommies".
>
> I'm sure there are many others.
>
...snip...
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/24/2015 7:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>>>>> well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>>>>> necessity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>>>>> traps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>>>>> have done?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>>>>> what you earn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>>>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>>>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>>>>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>>>>> players and entertainers.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>>>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>>>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>>>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>>>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>>>>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
>>>>> the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
>>>>> Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
>>>>> paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
>>>>> paid less.
>>>>
>>>> (Not believing it)
>>>>
>>>> Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
>>>> money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.
>>>>
>>>>> Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
>>>>> entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
>>>>> that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
>>>>> years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
>>>>> have a snow ball effect going on.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
>>>> anything but more debt and dumber students.
>>>
>>> If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
>>> you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
>>> educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
>>> money.
>>>
>> Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
>> now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
>> money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
>> needed. Much less, in fact.
>
>Brilliant.
>Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).
2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.
3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.
4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.
5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.
6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".
I'm sure there are many others.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>>>>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>>>>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
>>>>
>>>> That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
>>>> want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
>>>> your wallet.
>>>
>>> And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
>>> socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
>>> smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.
>>
>> Yer kiddin', right?
>
>I can see that I am waiting my time trying to point out the obvious.
>
It should be pretty plain. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul is a big
part of it, but see the other post.
>
>
On 3/25/2015 9:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
> - Who will be responsible for this task?
>
> - Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
>
> - What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?
>
> - What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?
>
> - Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)
>
> - Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."
>
Going back a number of years, schools were run like that. They have
become bloated with top level administrators that add nothing to the
education. Too many regulations.
To implement, just set the clock back about 50 years and use the old
playbook on how to run a school. It worked. It was much cheaper.
On 3/22/2015 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>
>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>> Everyday?
>>>
>>
>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>
>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>
> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
> working conditions
> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
> the assembly line, I just know
> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
> as over-payed as you think they are.
>
I'm not going to enter for arguments sake but these assembly line
workers are not being forced to work there. If they don't have the
aptitude for this kind of work, to keep from being injured, they should
look elsewhere. Life is not fair. Just because you are hired to do a
job it does not mean you have the skill set to do it safely.
On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 11:51:31 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
...snip...
> >
> > They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
> > and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
>=20
> that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can=
=20
> up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the=20
> assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I=
=20
> think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have=
=20
> to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along=20
> side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing=20
> trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,=
=20
> provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.
>=20
Don't your trucks have "automatic lifters"?
Our G-men (and women) roll the containers to the side of the truck, hook 'e=
m up and pull a lever.
Granted, they do have to lift the non-containerized debris, but WM has rule=
s regarding what we can put out as normal trash vs. what we need to call in=
. For large items, like furniture and appliances, they often send a truck w=
ith a crane.
That said, I grew up in NYC. I'm pretty sure that back then the G men were =
indeed highly skilled technicians, extensively trained in 3 aspects:
1 - Smashing brand new galvanized cans on the edge of the truck in precisel=
y the correct manner such that the lid will never, ever fit securely again=
.
2a - Shifting each homeowner's cans at least 3 houses to the left or right =
so that you had to go searching for your cans. In addition, one can will h=
ave been left 2-3 houses to the right, the other 2-3 houses to the left.
2b - In all cases, the non-fitting lid will not be shifted to same location=
as the can itself.
3 - Placing cans on the sidewalk in such a manner that they will prevent pe=
destrians from walking in a straight line. Some cans will be placed standin=
g on the street side of the sidewalk, other will be placed lying down on th=
e right, still others will left dead center.
The exception to Rule #3 is that all cans will be left standing up on rainy=
days so as to collect as much water as possible.
On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>>> that is not helping.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>>
>>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
>>> says that is good though.
>>>
>>>
>> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>
> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>
> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>
> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>
> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>
Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
overseas at a much lower cost?
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:39:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:16:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>
>>>> Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
>>>> worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
>>>> sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
>>>> time you have your house roofed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
>>> worth and what some one is paid.
>>
>> Not at all. If someone wasn't worth what they were paid, the
>> transaction wouldn't happen. That's the definition of worth.
>
>Which is worth more to you, A person that helps you or entertains you?
Which is more important, water or air? IOW, it's a false choice.
> Both charge you nothing.
Huh? Someone is feeding them.
>
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:20:31 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 03/23/2015 08:51 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can
>> up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the
>> assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I
>> think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have
>> to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along
>> side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing
>> trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,
>> provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.
>>
>>
>>
>Our G men just drive the truck and deploy the power can grabber to
>collect the trash without ever getting out of the truck. The recycle
>guys do run down the street, but the recycle boxes are relatively small.
Our recycle people use the same equipment and the same cans (green
rather than black). Well, we don't recycle but if we did...
On 3/23/2015 11:20 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 03/23/2015 08:51 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can
>> up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the
>> assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I
>> think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have
>> to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along
>> side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing
>> trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,
>> provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.
>>
>>
>>
> Our G men just drive the truck and deploy the power can grabber to
> collect the trash without ever getting out of the truck. The recycle
> guys do run down the street, but the recycle boxes are relatively small.
>
>
When I lived in Houston our garbage collection was the one man set up
with the articulating can grabber. Out here, 12 miles further west, the
collectors do it the old school way, brute strength, with the cans that
are normally used with the before mentioned method of collection.
On 3/22/2015 6:27 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>>>>>> take its toll on your body.
>>>>> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
>>>>> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
>>>>> English, I doubt they did that well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You had the choice to hire them.
>>>> If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
>>>> provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
>>>> getting paid market value and workers' comp.
>>>> Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
>>>> there were doing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
>>> between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
>>> arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
>>> "first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
>>> car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
>>> "rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.
>>>
>>>
>> Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
>> hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.
>>
> I think they had one person who was in charge of the team, and that he
> really knew who was who, based upon previous experience. And evidently,
> if you weren't on time, you didn't work that day!
>
Correction on my above comment.
Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job. The guy that
showed up the most often and consistently this month is the on site job
boss.
On 3/22/2015 6:47 PM, Max wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>
>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>> into line...
>>
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>
>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>
>
> And firefighters.... ;-)
>
>
Thank you for correcting me. Lets certainly not leave them out or
police, our service men and women, and to mention again health care
workers and our educators, or anyone that risks their lives for us.
I think we should feel better about spending more of our money for their
salaries than those that don't help out in the ways that these people do.
BUT we have been trained to believe that we should spend our money the
way we want and in particular we are trained to spend our money on what
makes us feel good at the moment and not on what is good for us long
term. We are no longer investing in our longevity as a society.
On 3/23/2015 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this way
>> and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.
>
> Just so everyone is aware, Leon has been shown to be a big contributor to
> the Liberal Gay And Lesbian Coalition in Support of Other Liberal Thoughts
> and Ideologies, To Include Gun Control and Other Liberal Thoughts and
> Ideologies. It's been said that he even built a coffee table for their
> lobby...
>
,,,,,,,,,, Had I not had an in with these organizations through the
president, YOU, it never wood'a happened.
On 3/22/2015 4:25 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>> supposedly represented them.
>>
>
> That has been my contention for the longest time.
> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
> full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
> prices for all the things they buy.
>
>
Yep. I have a friend, who was a state trooper. He retired, because he
was eligible. He complains that they don't allow him to come back to
work because of double dipping. His contention is that he is already
traained why shouldn't he save the state money by coming back to work as
a cop. I explain that in no other place can you retire and come back to
work and get another pension. He doesn't understand why he can't. There
is a lot of brain washing. And I can't talk about this with him, because
his view is so twisted.
--
Jeff
On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>> working conditions
>>> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
>>> the assembly line, I just know
>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
>>> as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
>> than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
>> there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
>> it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
>> deserved the pay they were getting.
>
> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
> absolutely work as hard for their pay...
> Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
> country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
> can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
> collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
> and grab the garbage cans too.
>
>
>
>
>
They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
not some.
--
Jeff
On 3/22/2015 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 4:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a
>>>>>>>> salary way beyond what he actually brings to the work
>>>>>>>> force? Why do certain laborers, factory workers for
>>>>>>>> instance, feel that they should earn what some doctors
>>>>>>>> earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and
>>>>>>>> Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly involved in
>>>>>>>> world trade we now see how our labor force was way over
>>>>>>>> paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality
>>>>>>>> than what we can build here but that will change. Even
>>>>>>>> though their products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years
>>>>>>>> ago we imported way less quality products from Japan
>>>>>>>> than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in
>>>>>>>> Japan I choose that product rather than, over priced and
>>>>>>>> lesser quality American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the American
>>>>>>>> automobile industry is in the shape it is in because of
>>>>>>>> workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The
>>>>>>> unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible
>>>>>>> service to the labor force, have now brainwashed people
>>>>>>> with high school educations and little to no skilled
>>>>>>> training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp,
>>>>>> heavy metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a
>>>>>> "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went
>>>>> through internships, training and continuing education, had to
>>>>> pass licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she
>>>>> started making that kind of money. I've never heard her once
>>>>> describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about
>>>> her working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job,
>>>> for instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know
>>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
>>>> but not as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making
>>> more than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't
>>> lived there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I
>>> personally think it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I
>>> don't think they deserved the pay they were getting.
>>
>> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
>> absolutely work as hard for their pay... Those guys have to be some
>> of the most physically fit workers in the country as a whole. At
>> least the ones that actually lift and empty the can by themselves.
>> And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our collectors keep
>> up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph, and grab the
>> garbage cans too.
>>
>
> Yet, they could train orangutans to do that job in a month and they'd
> work for whatever they picked out of the cans to eat.
>
>
I think some of them are orangutans. ;~)
On 3/22/2015 4:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>
>>>
>> I think the health care workers, at least those at the hospital
>> level, are being treated pretty well financially. They have "tough"
>> working conditions too (12-hour+ shifts, as the norm, in a tough
>> environment).
>>
>
> True. Plus they are well educated and well trained and have the lives
> of other people in their hands every day. Yet some auto workers with a
> GED make more than them.
>
On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>
>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>> Everyday?
>>>>
>>>
>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>
>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>
>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>> working conditions
>> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
>> the assembly line, I just know
>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
>> as over-payed as you think they are.
>>
>
> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
> than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
> there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
> it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
> deserved the pay they were getting.
It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
absolutely work as hard for their pay...
Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
and grab the garbage cans too.
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
> supposedly represented them.
>
That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
prices for all the things they buy.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>> well?
>>>>
>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>> necessity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>
>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>
>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>> traps.
>>>>
>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>
>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>> have done?
>>>>
>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>> what you earn.
>>>>
>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>
>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>> players and entertainers.
>>
>>>
>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
>> the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
>> Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
>> paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
>> paid less.
>
> (Not believing it)
>
> Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
> money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.
>
>> Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
>> entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
>> that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
>> years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
>> have a snow ball effect going on.
>
> Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
> anything but more debt and dumber students.
If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
money.
>
>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
>
> That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
> want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
> your wallet.
And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.
>
>> It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
>> much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
>> others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
>> would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
>> population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
>> bigger government.
>
> Some professions are *worth* more than others.
>
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>> well?
>>>
>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>> necessity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>> paid well.
>>>>
>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>> deserve that money?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>
>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>
>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>
>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>> traps.
>>>
>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>
>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>> have done?
>>>
>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>> what you earn.
>>>
>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>> problem.
>>>
>>
>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>
>Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>players and entertainers.
>
>>
>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>
>
>I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
>the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
>Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
>paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
>paid less.
(Not believing it)
Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.
>Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
>entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
>that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
>years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
>have a snow ball effect going on.
Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
anything but more debt and dumber students.
>And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
your wallet.
> It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
>much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
>others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
>would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
>population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
>bigger government.
Some professions are *worth* more than others.
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>> supposedly represented them.
>>
>
> That has been my contention for the longest time.
> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
> full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
> prices for all the things they buy.
>
>
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:01:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>> well?
>>>>
>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>> necessity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>
>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>
>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>> traps.
>>>>
>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>
>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>> have done?
>>>>
>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>> what you earn.
>>>>
>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>
>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>
>> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
>> himself. Freedom is good.
>
>And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
>decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
>education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
>and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
>emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
>our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
>less important than other things.
Well, that's a different argument than "worth". You don't think a
baseball player should make $50M. Fine but you're not paying him and
the person who is signing the payroll disagrees.
>Right now we are in an "ignorance is bliss" scenario.
More like "ignorance is useful" scenario.
On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 9:38:12 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:01:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>=20
> >On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
> >>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
> >>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
> >>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
> >>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
> >>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
> >>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
> >>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
> >>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
> >>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
> >>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
> >>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
> >>>>>>>>>> environment?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
> >>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
> >>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
> >>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
> >>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
> >>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
> >>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
> >>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
> >>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
> >>>>>>>> will come into line...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
> >>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
> >>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
> >>>>>>>>> of the answers.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
> >>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
> >>>>>>>> educators.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
> >>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
> >>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
> >>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
> >>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
> >>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
> >>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
> >>>>>> tomorrows.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
> >>>>> well?
> >>>>
> >>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
> >>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
> >>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
> >>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
> >>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
> >>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
> >>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
> >>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
> >>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
> >>>> necessity.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
> >>>>> paid well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
> >>>>> deserve that money?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
> >>>>
> >>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
> >>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
> >>>> rid their home of vermin.
> >>>>
> >>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
> >>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
> >>>>
> >>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse trap=
s
> >>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
> >>>> traps.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
> >>>> therefore being the most deserved?
> >>>>
> >>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
> >>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
> >>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
> >>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what yo=
u
> >>>> have done?
> >>>>
> >>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
> >>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
> >>>> what you earn.
> >>>>
> >>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
> >>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
> >>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
> >>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
> >>>> problem.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
> >>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
> >>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
> >>>
> >>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
> >>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
> >>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
> >>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
> >>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
> >>
> >> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
> >> himself. Freedom is good.
> >
> >And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making=20
> >decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better=20
> >education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy=
=20
> >and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more=20
> >emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately=20
> >our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are=
=20
> >less important than other things.
>=20
> Well, that's a different argument than "worth". You don't think a
> baseball player should make $50M. Fine but you're not paying him and
> the person who is signing the payroll disagrees.
We may not be signing the check for the salary, but in many cases we signed=
the check for the publicly funded stadium. I wonder what the salaries (and=
/or ticket prices) would look like if the owners had to pay for their own p=
lay houses.
Here is a summary of the book Field of Schemes, stolen w/o permission from:
http://www.amazon.com/Field-Schemes-Stadium-Swindle-Expanded/dp/0803260164/=
ref=3Dpd_sim_sbs_b_1
"Field of Schemes is a play-by-play account of how the drive for new sports=
stadiums and arenas drains $2 billion a year from public treasuries for th=
e sake of private profit. While the millionaires who own sports franchises =
have seen the value of their assets soar under this scheme, taxpayers, urba=
n residents, and sports fans have all come out losers, forced to pay both h=
igher taxes and higher ticket prices for seats that, thanks to the layers o=
f luxury seating that typify new stadiums, usually offer a worse view of th=
e action."
True, fans do not have to go to the games...it's their choice to pay the hi=
gher prices. I spoke with my wallet many years ago and relinquished my seas=
on tickets to an NFL team when the price got out of hand. I'm not sure that=
they noticed.
We should also keep in mind the huge tax breaks that the leagues receive. A=
s many of you know, the NFL is a 501(c)(6) organization (read: non-profit).=
Not the teams themselves, but the league.
Yes, I know that there are "offsets" to the tax breaks in increased revenue=
s from all the different businesses that make money when there's a game in =
town and that successful businesses contribute to the overall well being of=
an area. Still, I'll bet that the owners (and the leagues) make out better=
than the public when all the numbers are in.
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>
>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>> now, screwed up.
>>
>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>> irrelevant.
>>
>Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>after I have spent my rainy day money.
>
Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:49:34 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/27/2015 10:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:05:48 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/26/2015 8:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
>>>>> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
>>>>> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
>>>>> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
>>>>> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
>>>>> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
>>>>> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
>>>>> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
>>>>> long before he started college.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
>>>> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
>>>> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
>>>> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
>>>> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
>>>> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
>>>
>>> Well I can almost understand it these days with interest rates as low as
>>> they are. Keep the cash and make a monthly payment that is likely to
>>> never be paid off. It is not a great way to look at it but if you have
>>> a life expectancy of another 7~8 years and you buy a home with a 30 year
>>> mortgage you get to keep most of your cash and have the big house too.
>>
>> People often look at their mortgage as rent. IMO, it's completely
>> understandable. Most simply don't have the money to pay the mortgage
>> early in its life and later on it loses its leverage. With interest
>> rates as they are, there is a school of thought that says that there
>> are better investments (not that I agree).
>>
>
>Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
>the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
>explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
>save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
>necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
>The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
>peoples brains.
>
>I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
>payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
>don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
Perhaps they have bitten more off than they can chew but you have to
start Thanksgiving dinner with the first bite. We were really far out
on the ledge with our first house but interest rates were 14.5%, too
(down from 18% when we were looking). There was no chance of paying a
dime extra.
I don't feel sorry for the results of anyone's choices. They have the
right to make choices and with that goes the chance to fail. It's a
great trade-off, IMO.
>The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
>risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
>income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
>investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
>may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
Precisely the reason I don't invest the extra payments (though I
understand it). At this point in my life, the security of the home is
much better than a few extra bucks I could gamble in the market. Yeah,
I lost big time over the last couple of years but there's that
"choice" thing again.
On 3/28/2015 5:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:49:34 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/27/2015 10:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:05:48 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2015 8:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
>>>>>> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
>>>>>> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
>>>>>> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
>>>>>> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
>>>>>> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
>>>>>> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
>>>>>> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
>>>>>> long before he started college.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
>>>>> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
>>>>> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
>>>>> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
>>>>> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
>>>>> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
>>>>
>>>> Well I can almost understand it these days with interest rates as low as
>>>> they are. Keep the cash and make a monthly payment that is likely to
>>>> never be paid off. It is not a great way to look at it but if you have
>>>> a life expectancy of another 7~8 years and you buy a home with a 30 year
>>>> mortgage you get to keep most of your cash and have the big house too.
>>>
>>> People often look at their mortgage as rent. IMO, it's completely
>>> understandable. Most simply don't have the money to pay the mortgage
>>> early in its life and later on it loses its leverage. With interest
>>> rates as they are, there is a school of thought that says that there
>>> are better investments (not that I agree).
>>>
>>
>> Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
>> the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
>> explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
>> save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
>> necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
>> The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
>> peoples brains.
>>
>> I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
>> payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
>> don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
>
> Perhaps they have bitten more off than they can chew but you have to
> start Thanksgiving dinner with the first bite. We were really far out
> on the ledge with our first house but interest rates were 14.5%, too
> (down from 18% when we were looking). There was no chance of paying a
> dime extra.
Understood, we once had 12% the rate was 13 and a couple years later it
went up to 18. We were stuck in that routine until rates came down to 9
and then we started the process by refinancing to a 15 year loan. We
did not lower our payments but a couple of dollars but we went from
about $36 a month going towards principal instantly to $158 per month
for a couple of years and then started adding $300 per month as we paid
vehicles off.
>
> I don't feel sorry for the results of anyone's choices. They have the
> right to make choices and with that goes the chance to fail. It's a
> great trade-off, IMO.
>
>> The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
>> risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
>> income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
>> investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
>> may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
>
> Precisely the reason I don't invest the extra payments (though I
> understand it). At this point in my life, the security of the home is
> much better than a few extra bucks I could gamble in the market. Yeah,
> I lost big time over the last couple of years but there's that
> "choice" thing again.
I think most peoples problem is that they invest money in the market
that they cannot afford to loose. I don't depend on my market
investments at all, if I lost all of that money I would be highly upset
with myself but it would not change the way I live.
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:38:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/27/2015 7:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/26/2015 7:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>>>>>> is that simple.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>>>>>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>>>>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>>>>>> debt free since 1997.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>>>>> computer in 1986.
>>>>
>>>> Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
>>>> problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
>>>
>>> LOL, are you one of those?
>>
>> One of what?
>>
>>>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>>>
>>>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>>>
>>> Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
>>> amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
>>> the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
>>> the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
>>> Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
>>> I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>>
>> It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>>
>>>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>>>>> owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>>>>> and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>>>>> not thought of this himself.
>>>>
>>>> Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
>>>> the time value of money.
>>>
>>> Well, it is the norm to have house payments, most don't think of not
>>> having them. I also pointed out to him that putting extra money in on
>>> his regular payment was like getting the same interest back as a savings
>>> account would have done at the time. If his mortgage interest rate was
>>> 8% it was like earning 8% on the extra money he paid in each month as he
>>> was not paying interest on that amount.
>>
>> I still find it amazing. Business owners have to understand interest.
>> that their knowledge of business doesn't translate to their personal
>> life is weird.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>>>>> 16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>>>>> to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>>>>> and then paying extra with each payment.
>>>>
>>>> We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
>>>> years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
>>>> but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
>>>> $30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
>>>
>>> Yeah we had 2 car payments too. As we paid each off that payment went
>>> into the house payment.
>>
>> We don't have a car payment (on $60K in vehicles), just a small
>> mortgage (less than half that). We chose to pay off the vehicles and
>> keep the mortgage.
>
>We "had" car payments and a mortgage about 25 years ago. In the last 18
>years we have been paying cash for vehicles and paid cash 4 years ago
>for our current home.
>
But you don't get the tax write-off. ;-)
We'll be in that position within a year.
On 3/28/2015 5:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:38:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/27/2015 7:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2015 7:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>>>>>>> is that simple.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>>>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>>>>>>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>>>>>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>>>>>>> debt free since 1997.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>>>>>> computer in 1986.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
>>>>> problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
>>>>
>>>> LOL, are you one of those?
>>>
>>> One of what?
>>>
>>>>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>>>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>>>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>>>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
>>>> amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
>>>> the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
>>>> the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
>>>> Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
>>>> I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>>>
>>> It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>>>
>>>>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>>>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>>>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>>>>>> owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>>>>>> and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>>>>>> not thought of this himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
>>>>> the time value of money.
>>>>
>>>> Well, it is the norm to have house payments, most don't think of not
>>>> having them. I also pointed out to him that putting extra money in on
>>>> his regular payment was like getting the same interest back as a savings
>>>> account would have done at the time. If his mortgage interest rate was
>>>> 8% it was like earning 8% on the extra money he paid in each month as he
>>>> was not paying interest on that amount.
>>>
>>> I still find it amazing. Business owners have to understand interest.
>>> that their knowledge of business doesn't translate to their personal
>>> life is weird.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>>>>>> 16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>>>>>> to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>>>>>> and then paying extra with each payment.
>>>>>
>>>>> We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
>>>>> years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
>>>>> but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
>>>>> $30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah we had 2 car payments too. As we paid each off that payment went
>>>> into the house payment.
>>>
>>> We don't have a car payment (on $60K in vehicles), just a small
>>> mortgage (less than half that). We chose to pay off the vehicles and
>>> keep the mortgage.
>>
>> We "had" car payments and a mortgage about 25 years ago. In the last 18
>> years we have been paying cash for vehicles and paid cash 4 years ago
>> for our current home.
>>
> But you don't get the tax write-off. ;-)
>
> We'll be in that position within a year.
>
What is a tax write off. LOL I recall I used to top out in SS
deductions and now I don't qualify for tax write offs.
On 3/29/2015 9:18 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/29/2015 9:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps they have bitten more off than they can chew but you have to
>>> start Thanksgiving dinner with the first bite. We were really far out
>>> on the ledge with our first house but interest rates were 14.5%, too
>>> (down from 18% when we were looking). There was no chance of paying a
>>> dime extra.
>>
>> Understood, we once had 12% the rate was 13 and a couple years later it
>> went up to 18. We were stuck in that routine until rates came down to 9
>> and then we started the process by refinancing to a 15 year loan. We
>> did not lower our payments but a couple of dollars but we went from
>> about $36 a month going towards principal instantly to $158 per month
>> for a couple of years and then started adding $300 per month as we paid
>> vehicles off.
>>
> I relocated in 1981 and the rates were high. I was able to get a 15%. It
> came down to "how much a month can I afford" and bought a house priced
> accordingly. Great times if you had an old low interest mortgage or no
> mortgage and were buying CD's for 12% return.
Well while those interest rates seemed good, they were only high to keep
up with inflation. If you could get a CD with those rates you were
basically insuring that your stash was not loosing spending power. The
ideal time to have purchased a home was early to mid 70's. In Houston
10 years later the homes almost tripled in value. I find that CD's are
a safe and good investment if you are drawing a LOT of money and not
spending it all.
As I have once heard, CD's are a safe way to watch your money loose value.
>
> A few years later I recall walking out of the bank after the first re-fi
> knowing I just saved $40,000+ Then did it again. And again.
>
>
On 3/29/2015 9:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Perhaps they have bitten more off than they can chew but you have to
>> start Thanksgiving dinner with the first bite. We were really far out
>> on the ledge with our first house but interest rates were 14.5%, too
>> (down from 18% when we were looking). There was no chance of paying a
>> dime extra.
>
> Understood, we once had 12% the rate was 13 and a couple years later it
> went up to 18. We were stuck in that routine until rates came down to 9
> and then we started the process by refinancing to a 15 year loan. We
> did not lower our payments but a couple of dollars but we went from
> about $36 a month going towards principal instantly to $158 per month
> for a couple of years and then started adding $300 per month as we paid
> vehicles off.
>
I relocated in 1981 and the rates were high. I was able to get a 15%.
It came down to "how much a month can I afford" and bought a house
priced accordingly. Great times if you had an old low interest mortgage
or no mortgage and were buying CD's for 12% return.
A few years later I recall walking out of the bank after the first re-fi
knowing I just saved $40,000+ Then did it again. And again.
On 28 Mar 2015 02:36:20 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>>
>
>
>if you knew RPN, were only useful, They.
Is there another way to make calculators? ;-)
>Well, actually I think around 30 years ago TI had come out with the TI30, a
>scientific calculator still available for less than $30. (They're more
>like $12 now, with two-line display so the calculator is not read only.)
There were a myriad of financial calculators around in the '80s.
On 3/24/2015 8:53 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 9:38:12 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:01:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>>>> well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>>>> necessity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>>>> traps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>>>> have done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>>>> what you earn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
>>>> himself. Freedom is good.
>>>
>>> And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
>>> decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
>>> education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
>>> and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
>>> emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
>>> our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
>>> less important than other things.
>>
>> Well, that's a different argument than "worth". You don't think a
>> baseball player should make $50M. Fine but you're not paying him and
>> the person who is signing the payroll disagrees.
>
> We may not be signing the check for the salary, but in many cases we signed the check for the publicly funded stadium. I wonder what the salaries (and/or ticket prices) would look like if the owners had to pay for their own play houses.
>
> Here is a summary of the book Field of Schemes, stolen w/o permission from:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Field-Schemes-Stadium-Swindle-Expanded/dp/0803260164/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1
>
> "Field of Schemes is a play-by-play account of how the drive for new sports stadiums and arenas drains $2 billion a year from public treasuries for the sake of private profit. While the millionaires who own sports franchises have seen the value of their assets soar under this scheme, taxpayers, urban residents, and sports fans have all come out losers, forced to pay both higher taxes and higher ticket prices for seats that, thanks to the layers of luxury seating that typify new stadiums, usually offer a worse view of the action."
>
> True, fans do not have to go to the games...it's their choice to pay the higher prices. I spoke with my wallet many years ago and relinquished my season tickets to an NFL team when the price got out of hand. I'm not sure that they noticed.
>
> We should also keep in mind the huge tax breaks that the leagues receive. As many of you know, the NFL is a 501(c)(6) organization (read: non-profit). Not the teams themselves, but the league.
>
> Yes, I know that there are "offsets" to the tax breaks in increased revenues from all the different businesses that make money when there's a game in town and that successful businesses contribute to the overall well being of an area. Still, I'll bet that the owners (and the leagues) make out better than the public when all the numbers are in.
>
>
And the shame of it all is that the public simply does not know how
irresponsible spending is affection their quality of life.
The entertainers are better salesmen than our educators...
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:32:00 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/23/15 9:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be paid a salary way beyond what he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, feel that they should earn what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some doctors earn, of for that matter more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same quality than what we can build here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will change. Even though their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. 50 years ago we imported way less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan I choose that product rather than,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry. Plain and simple the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry is in the shape it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. The unions, which were needed at one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time and did an incredible service to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force, have now brainwashed people with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high school educations and little to no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees, went through internships, training and
>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>>>>>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she
>>>>>>>>>>>> started making that kind of money. I've never
>>>>>>>>>>>> heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun".
>>>>>>>>>>> Ask her about her working conditions or her risk of
>>>>>>>>>>> being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed, but not as over-payed as you think they
>>>>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure
>>>>>>>>>> there are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and
>>>>>>>>>> devices in place on every assembly line in this
>>>>>>>>>> country. If there some that aren't safe, they should
>>>>>>>>>> be made safer. But what does that have to do with
>>>>>>>>>> employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather have higher
>>>>>>>>>> pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto
>>>>>>>>>> assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>>>>>>> $50k/yr plus benefits and retirement just because
>>>>>>>>>> they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits.
>>>>>>>>> The job will take its toll on your body. I have more of
>>>>>>>>> a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their
>>>>>>>> salaries will come into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned
>>>>>>>>> with the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so
>>>>>>>>> than income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't
>>>>>>>>> have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that
>>>>>>>> pays it's entertainers more than its health care workers
>>>>>>>> and educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in
>>>>>> the movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is
>>>>>> our society but on this path no one will be able to afford to
>>>>>> go to the movies. I understand how we think this way and I
>>>>>> understand why we are in the shape we are in. We put too
>>>>>> much value in things that make us happy today but not for all
>>>>>> of the tomorrows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be
>>>>> paid well?
>>>>
>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to
>>>> society the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work
>>>> to do something that greatly benefits society as you would work
>>>> playing a game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves
>>>> the better pay. I don't really determine a persons worth by how
>>>> much money he makes. I just believe that if you are providing a
>>>> product or service that benefits one or many people, what you
>>>> charge is of more value than a person that simply entertains.
>>>> Value for money spent is more important. Is entertainment
>>>> important, absolutely but IMHO not a necessity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should
>>>>> be paid well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of
>>>> 25 million. Your product helps countless people with an actual
>>>> need to rid their home of vermin.
>>>>
>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit
>>>> of 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6
>>>> weeks.
>>>>
>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse
>>>> traps and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making
>>>> the traps.
>>>>
>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>
>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with
>>>> either pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A
>>>> year from now while the traps are still in use and the movie is
>>>> all but forgotten which would job would make you feel the best
>>>> about what you have done?
>>>>
>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them
>>>> for more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more
>>>> deserving of what you earn.
>>>>
>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as
>>>> they can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have
>>>> been conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can
>>>> get while the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that
>>>> is the problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast
>>> implant. Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>
>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>> players and entertainers.
>>
>>>
>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and
>>> saying some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a
>>> free market. You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with
>>> socialism, you better hope whoever is setting that moral compass
>>> lines up with your ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go
>> in the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect
>> system. Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players
>> are getting paid more each year and the educators teaching our
>> children are being paid less. Do we really want to give more
>> recognition and pay to those that entertain and don't educate our
>> children? I think it is pretty obvious that kids education and
>> aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40 years ago. Not all of
>> them but the percentages are growing. We seem to have a snow ball
>> effect going on.
>>
>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money
>> on. It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a
>> living so much as the value the consumer puts on some professions
>> compared to others. You know if the government actually cared about
>> education it would make things better but the dumber and more
>> dependent the population is the easier it is to get the population to
>> go along with bigger government.
>>
>
>I wouldn't argue with you about teachers. However, in some areas they
>make up over 70, 80 grand a year, with all those breaks and summer. :-)
Six figures isn't unusual, with retirement packages worth 80-100% of
the highest year salary.
>People will spend lots of money to go to professional sporting events,
>but won't vote to raise property taxes to fund local schools. So in a
>way they are making the choice to place entertainer above teachers.
On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>
>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>> irrelevant.
>>>
>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>
> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
> hammock out of the safety net.
>
And every one spends exactly like you.
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>
>>
>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>
> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
> Everyday?
>
WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>
>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>> Everyday?
>>
>
> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>
> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>
Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions
or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
the assembly line, I just know
some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
as over-payed as you think they are.
On 3/23/2015 12:04 PM, Markem wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:47:22 -0600, Max <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Civilization is still evolving. ;-)
>
> Depends, could be devolving ;->
>
Good point.
On 3/24/2015 7:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>>>> well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>>>> necessity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>>>> traps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>>>> have done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>>>> what you earn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>>>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>>>> players and entertainers.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>>>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
>>>> the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
>>>> Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
>>>> paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
>>>> paid less.
>>>
>>> (Not believing it)
>>>
>>> Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
>>> money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.
>>>
>>>> Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
>>>> entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
>>>> that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
>>>> years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
>>>> have a snow ball effect going on.
>>>
>>> Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
>>> anything but more debt and dumber students.
>>
>> If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
>> you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
>> educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
>> money.
>>
> Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
> now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
> money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
> needed. Much less, in fact.
Brilliant.
Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
>
>>>
>>>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>>>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>>>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
>>>
>>> That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
>>> want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
>>> your wallet.
>>
>> And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
>> socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
>> smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.
>
> Yer kiddin', right?
I can see that I am waiting my time trying to point out the obvious.
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>>> well?
>>>>>
>>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>>> necessity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>>
>>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>>> traps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>>> have done?
>>>>>
>>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>>> what you earn.
>>>>>
>>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>
>>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>>> players and entertainers.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
>>> the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
>>> Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
>>> paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
>>> paid less.
>>
>> (Not believing it)
>>
>> Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
>> money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.
>>
>>> Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
>>> entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
>>> that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
>>> years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
>>> have a snow ball effect going on.
>>
>> Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
>> anything but more debt and dumber students.
>
>If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
>you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
>educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
>money.
>
Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
needed. Much less, in fact.
>>
>>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
>>
>> That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
>> want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
>> your wallet.
>
>And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
>socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
>smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.
Yer kiddin', right?
Because the government is stealing more money from some and giving it
to others (after taking a huge cut to feed itself). Because
government is micro managing the economy. Because government is
picking winners and losers. Because government is forcing you to buy
what you don't want. There are about a thousand more reasons.
No, the voters are smart enough to vote themselves a piece of the
treasury.
>>> It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
>>> much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
>>> others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
>>> would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
>>> population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
>>> bigger government.
>>
>> Some professions are *worth* more than others.
>>
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:47:22 -0600, Max <[email protected]> wrote:
>Civilization is still evolving. ;-)
Depends, could be devolving ;->
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>> worth $50k +
>>>
>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>> do Everyday?
>>>
>>
>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>
>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>> job as "fun."
>>
> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
> over-payed as you think they are.
>
I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?
How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/26/2015 10:48 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/25/2015 9:45 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>> debt free since 1997.
>
> Formal education is good. Common sense and logic are better. You've
> proved it.
Yeah, but I think if this were taught, in a way people could understand,
it would give more people some idea's. The problem is the bombardment
of advertizing ultimately showing you that you are not keeping up with
the Jones'. There are few things as rewarding as not having a rent or
mortgage payment.
My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
long before he started college.
I often introduce my son as my retirement plan. ;~) I got a big kick
out of an introduction a couple of weeks ago. My wife and I and my son
were visiting my father, in a memory care center, and met an older
couple, he was a resident of the center and his wife was there to visit.
She asked my son what grade he was in...;~)
Yeah we are darn proud of that kid, we picked a good one when we brought
him home from the hospital 27 years ago.
Sorry for the bragging, it just pops out. ;~)
On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>> to be taught in your education.
>>
>
> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>
>
Yep!
On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
honest labor are....
On 3/26/2015 12:13 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
>> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
>> kind of
>> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
>> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
>> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>>
>>
>
>
> I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
> they were never taught.
I think I know what you meant but you might want to re-word that. ;-)
To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
> more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
> then they have kids and then they teach.....
On 03/26/2015 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>
>>
>> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
>> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
>> kind of
>> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
>> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
>> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>>
>>
>
>
> I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
> they were never taught. To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
> more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
> then they have kids and then they teach.....
1. Teaching Math In 1950s
A logger sells a
truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production
is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?
2. Teaching Math In 1970s
A logger sells a
truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production
is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?
3. Teaching Math In 1980s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit ?
Yes or No
4. Teaching Math In 1990s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is $80 and his profit is
$20
Your assignment: Underline the number 20.
5. Teaching Math In 2000s
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and
inconsiderate and cares nothing
for the habitat of animals or the
preservation of our woodlands.
He does this so he can make a profit of
$20. What do you think of this
way of making a living? Topic for
class participation after
answering the question: How did the birds
and squirrels feel as the logger
cut down their homes? (There are no
wrong answers, and if you feel
like crying, it's ok).
6. Teaching Math In 2050
ÙاتشÙر٠تبÙع ÙارÙÙاد Ù
Ù ÙÙاب 100
دÙÙار . تÙÙÙØ© اÙØ¥Ùتاج ÙÙ 80
دÙÙارا٠. ÙÙ٠اÙÙØ«ÙرÙ
٠اÙÙ
ا٠ÙÙÙ
Ø
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 3/26/2015 8:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
>> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
>> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
>> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
>> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
>> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
>> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
>> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
>> long before he started college.
>
>
> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
Well I can almost understand it these days with interest rates as low as
they are. Keep the cash and make a monthly payment that is likely to
never be paid off. It is not a great way to look at it but if you have
a life expectancy of another 7~8 years and you buy a home with a 30 year
mortgage you get to keep most of your cash and have the big house too.
On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:34:31 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
> > I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
> > very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
> > debt free since 1997.
>
> You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.
>
> Not to worry though, you're in good company...
>
> ... so was Einstein. ;)
>
"consummately autodidactic"
umm...that's *two* words. You needs to learn you some more math. ;-)
On 3/27/2015 7:51 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
>> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
>> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
>> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
>> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
>> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
>
> It is not a given that a person's income will go down when they retire. With proper planning a person can have as much, or even more income, when they retire. I see it all the time.
>
> In addition, if you can make more money by investing your money when mortgage rates are low, retaining the mortgage makes sense. Is there more risk? Possibly, but with a properly designed portfolio, one that allows you ride out the rough times, a lot of that risk can be mitigated. Do some people want the peace of mind that the house is paid of? Yes. If it helps you sleep better knowing that it is paid off, then by all means get rid of the mortgage, even if you are paying 3% and making 5%.
>
> Even extremely rich people take out mortgages when they can get a rate that is lower than they can make with the same money. Why tie up millions in a home when they can invest it in a profitable business? That strategy works on smaller scales also.
>
Sure, but how many people do that? How many have the ability? I'm
talking about the other 90%.
Too many homeowners are using the equity in their house like an ATM.
Want a new car? Take out a home equity loan and we can get a better car
and take a nice vacation. I'm talking about the people that buy a
house, live in it for 19 years, owe about 95% of the value rather than
have paid down the mortgage.
On 3/26/2015 1:19 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
>> On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
>>> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
>>> kind of
>>> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
>>> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
>>> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>>>
>>>
>> Yep!
>> On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
>> never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
>> honest labor are....
>
> One thing very observable ... it gets worse with each succeeding
> generation.
>
> The real tragedy is that those without a certain age based perspective
> don't even see the problem.
>
That in a nut shell is it. Give their kids a trophy!
On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>
>>
>> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
>> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
>> kind of
>> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
>> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
>> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>>
>>
> Yep!
> On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
> never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
> honest labor are....
Exactly, stupidity breeds stupidity.
I realize that our educational system has serious problems, mostly
teachers not being able to teach and they are mostly there to baby sit.
If we started handling problem students like we should, let the teachers
teach, and reward the teachers for turning out productive and
responsible students, with higher pay, we would attract more capable
teachers. As it is now good teachers leave for better paying jobs and
less stress.
On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>> to be taught in your education.
>>
>
> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>
>
I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
they were never taught. To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
then they have kids and then they teach.....
On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>
>>
>> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
>> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
>> kind of
>> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
>> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
>> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
>>
>>
> Yep!
> On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
> never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
> honest labor are....
One thing very observable ... it gets worse with each succeeding generation.
The real tragedy is that those without a certain age based perspective
don't even see the problem.
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 3/26/2015 9:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:34:31 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
>> On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>> debt free since 1997.
>>
>> You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.
>>
>> Not to worry though, you're in good company...
>>
>> ... so was Einstein. ;)
>>
>
> "consummately autodidactic"
>
> umm...that's *two* words. You needs to learn you some more math. ;-)
One of the privileges of being autodidactic ...
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 9:22:44 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/27/2015 7:51 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> >> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
> >> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
> >> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why d=
o
> >> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of bra=
in
> >> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easie=
r
> >> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
> >
> > It is not a given that a person's income will go down when they retire.=
With proper planning a person can have as much, or even more income, when =
they retire. I see it all the time.
> >
> > In addition, if you can make more money by investing your money when mo=
rtgage rates are low, retaining the mortgage makes sense. Is there more ris=
k? Possibly, but with a properly designed portfolio, one that allows you ri=
de out the rough times, a lot of that risk can be mitigated. Do some people=
want the peace of mind that the house is paid of? Yes. If it helps you sle=
ep better knowing that it is paid off, then by all means get rid of the mor=
tgage, even if you are paying 3% and making 5%.
> >
> > Even extremely rich people take out mortgages when they can get a rate =
that is lower than they can make with the same money. Why tie up millions i=
n a home when they can invest it in a profitable business? That strategy wo=
rks on smaller scales also.
> >
>=20
> Sure, but how many people do that? How many have the ability? I'm=20
> talking about the other 90%.
>=20
> Too many homeowners are using the equity in their house like an ATM.=20
> Want a new car? Take out a home equity loan and we can get a better car=
=20
> and take a nice vacation. I'm talking about the people that buy a=20
> house, live in it for 19 years, owe about 95% of the value rather than=20
> have paid down the mortgage.
No argument...I was simply responding to both of your blanket statements by=
offering some alternative scenarios.=20
"Why do they still have a mortgage at that age?" is a valid question but no=
t necessarily a WTF question.
There are so many different circumstances (some good, some bad) that I don'=
t even know if "90%" works (but that's not an argument either). Some people=
would rather pay their kids' college tuition than pay down their mortgage =
so the kids aren't saddled with student loans. Others may have had medical =
or family or job related issues that prevented the payoff. Still others fou=
nd more profitable things to do with their cash than pay down the mortgage,=
things that now allow them to have a comfortable retirement even with a mo=
rtgage payment.
All I am saying is that we can't assume that they are "wrong" to have a mor=
tgage at 65 until we have a clear picture of their overall financial situat=
ion.
On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:57:20 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>=20
> >
> > My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
> > In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average=
,
> > all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
> > a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
> > our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he pu=
t
> > enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
> > that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He wa=
s
> > very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
> > long before he started college.
>=20
>=20
> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,=20
> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets=20
> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do=
=20
> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain=
=20
> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier=
=20
> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
It is not a given that a person's income will go down when they retire. Wit=
h proper planning a person can have as much, or even more income, when they=
retire. I see it all the time.
In addition, if you can make more money by investing your money when mortga=
ge rates are low, retaining the mortgage makes sense. Is there more risk? P=
ossibly, but with a properly designed portfolio, one that allows you ride o=
ut the rough times, a lot of that risk can be mitigated. Do some people wan=
t the peace of mind that the house is paid of? Yes. If it helps you sleep b=
etter knowing that it is paid off, then by all means get rid of the mortgag=
e, even if you are paying 3% and making 5%.
Even extremely rich people take out mortgages when they can get a rate that=
is lower than they can make with the same money. Why tie up millions in a =
home when they can invest it in a profitable business? That strategy works =
on smaller scales also.
On 3/26/2015 8:34 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>> debt free since 1997.
>
> You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.
>
> Not to worry though, you're in good company...
>
> ... so was Einstein. ;)
>
I try to hang out with smart people, it rubs off on me ;~)
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>
>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>
>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>
>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>
>And every one spends exactly like you.
Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:58:22 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/28/2015 7:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/28/2015 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
>>> the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
>>> explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
>>> save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
>>> necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
>>> The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
>>> peoples brains.
>>
>> I work with a woman that has never lived in a bought house. Her parents
>> rented, when she was married they rented, she still rents, Upon
>> retirement her plan is to go into senior housing. She seems to be
>> content with it, but that is not what I aspired to.
>
>She was never taught, in a way she could understand, to think
>differently. There is a shocking amount of people that think that way.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
>>> payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
>>> don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
>>
>> Same here. Long time ago and did not like it.
>>
>>>
>>> The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
>>> risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
>>> income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
>>> investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
>>> may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
>>
>> My goal was to have the house paid for long before retirement. I'm now
>> collecting social security (still working 80% too) Taxes, insurance,
>> utilities are all iIneed to survive. I like the idea of knowing my ass
>> will not be out on the street in my old age. Or having a nasty landlord.
>
>Exactly. Unfortunately down here we still have the threat of the
>government and taxes, even if our homes are paid off. But fortunately
>at 65 you still owe taxes but you can take an exemption and pay them
>with penalty when you sell, if you sell. ;~)
We still have the threat of the tax man but it's only 30%[*] of what
it would have been had we not moved.
[*] On more than twice the house and 3x the lot size.
>
>
>
>
Leon wrote:
>
> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
> to be taught in your education.
>
I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>
>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>
>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>
> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
> is that simple.
>
And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.
I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.
On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
> points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
> thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
> delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
> institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.
After all, teaching our children how to think puts our government at risk.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
> long before he started college.
In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
to live your daily life with the house paid off.
On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
> debt free since 1997.
You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.
Not to worry though, you're in good company...
... so was Einstein. ;)
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>
>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>
>>>
>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>
>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>> job as "fun."
>>>
>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>
>
> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
> environment?
>
> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>
I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
Cheers,
Bill
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 06:53:20 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 9:38:12 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:01:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>> >>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>> >>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>> >>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>> >>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>> >>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>> >>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>> >>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>> >>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>> >>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>> >>>>>>>>>> environment?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>> >>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>> >>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>> >>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>> >>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>> >>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>> >>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>> >>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>> >>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>> >>>>>>>> will come into line...
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>> >>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>> >>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>> >>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>> >>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>> >>>>>>>> educators.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>> >>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>> >>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>> >>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>> >>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>> >>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>> >>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>> >>>>>> tomorrows.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>> >>>>> well?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>> >>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>> >>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>> >>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>> >>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>> >>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>> >>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>> >>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>> >>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>> >>>> necessity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>> >>>>> paid well.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>> >>>>> deserve that money?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>> >>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>> >>>> rid their home of vermin.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>> >>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>> >>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>> >>>> traps.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>> >>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>> >>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>> >>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>> >>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>> >>>> have done?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>> >>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>> >>>> what you earn.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>> >>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>> >>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>> >>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>> >>>> problem.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>> >>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>> >>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>> >>>
>> >>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>> >>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>> >>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>> >>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>> >>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
>> >> himself. Freedom is good.
>> >
>> >And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
>> >decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
>> >education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
>> >and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
>> >emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
>> >our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
>> >less important than other things.
>>
>> Well, that's a different argument than "worth". You don't think a
>> baseball player should make $50M. Fine but you're not paying him and
>> the person who is signing the payroll disagrees.
>
>We may not be signing the check for the salary, but in many cases we signed the check for the publicly funded stadium. I wonder what the salaries (and/or ticket prices) would look like if the owners had to pay for their own play houses.
That's a completely different kettle-o-fish, but note that the
politicians that you put in office signed the check in your absence.
...and mine.
>Here is a summary of the book Field of Schemes, stolen w/o permission from:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/Field-Schemes-Stadium-Swindle-Expanded/dp/0803260164/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1
>
>"Field of Schemes is a play-by-play account of how the drive for new sports stadiums and arenas drains $2 billion a year from public treasuries for the sake of private profit. While the millionaires who own sports franchises have seen the value of their assets soar under this scheme, taxpayers, urban residents, and sports fans have all come out losers, forced to pay both higher taxes and higher ticket prices for seats that, thanks to the layers of luxury seating that typify new stadiums, usually offer a worse view of the action."
>
>True, fans do not have to go to the games...it's their choice to pay the higher prices. I spoke with my wallet many years ago and relinquished my season tickets to an NFL team when the price got out of hand. I'm not sure that they noticed.
>
>We should also keep in mind the huge tax breaks that the leagues receive. As many of you know, the NFL is a 501(c)(6) organization (read: non-profit). Not the teams themselves, but the league.
I have no problem with that. The teams pay taxes. If the league also
paid tax, the teams would be effectively double-taxed.
>Yes, I know that there are "offsets" to the tax breaks in increased revenues from all the different businesses that make money when there's a game in town and that successful businesses contribute to the overall well being of an area. Still, I'll bet that the owners (and the leagues) make out better than the public when all the numbers are in.
>
Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>
> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
> into line...
>
>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>
> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>
>
I think the health care workers, at least those at the hospital level,
are being treated pretty well financially. They have "tough" working
conditions too (12-hour+ shifts, as the norm, in a tough environment).
>
>
>
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>
> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
> into line...
>
>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>
> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>
If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
unfair pay.
It's the free market.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>> take its toll on your body.
> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
> English, I doubt they did that well.
>
>
You had the choice to hire them.
If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
getting paid market value and workers' comp.
Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
there were doing.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>>
>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>
>>
> I think the health care workers, at least those at the hospital
> level, are being treated pretty well financially. They have "tough"
> working conditions too (12-hour+ shifts, as the norm, in a tough
> environment).
>
True. Plus they are well educated and well trained and have the lives
of other people in their hands every day. Yet some auto workers with a
GED make more than them.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid
>>>>>>>>>> a salary way beyond what he actually brings to the
>>>>>>>>>> work force? Why do certain laborers, factory
>>>>>>>>>> workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>>>>>>>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more
>>>>>>>>>> than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a
>>>>>>>>>> small wonder why China and Mexico workers have
>>>>>>>>>> replaced American workers? Now that the US and
>>>>>>>>>> other countries became majorly involved in world
>>>>>>>>>> trade we now see how our labor force was way over
>>>>>>>>>> paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often
>>>>>>>>>> inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you
>>>>>>>>>> get what you pay for. 50 years ago we imported way
>>>>>>>>>> less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>>>>>>>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and
>>>>>>>>>> lesser quality American made. Just look at the
>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it is
>>>>>>>>>> in because of workers with entitlement issues and
>>>>>>>>>> the unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The
>>>>>>>>> unions, which were needed at one time and did an
>>>>>>>>> incredible service to the labor force, have now
>>>>>>>>> brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth
>>>>>>>>> $50k +
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big,
>>>>>>>> sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all day
>>>>>>>> sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went
>>>>>>> through internships, training and continuing education,
>>>>>>> had to pass licensing exams, and had 10 years experience
>>>>>>> before she started making that kind of money. I've never
>>>>>>> heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her
>>>>>> about her working conditions or her risk of being injured
>>>>>> on the job, for instance. I don't work on the assembly
>>>>>> line, I just know some folks who have. I agree with you
>>>>>> that they are over-payed, but not as over-payed as you
>>>>>> think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are
>>>>> dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in place
>>>>> on every assembly line in this country. If there some that
>>>>> aren't safe, they should be made safer. But what does that
>>>>> have to do with employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather
>>>>> have higher pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety
>>>>> gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are
>>>>> way more dangerous than any auto assembly line job. Are
>>>>> these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus benefits and
>>>>> retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job
>>>> will take its toll on your body. I have more of a problem with
>>>> what professional athletes get. Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>
>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will
>>> come into line...
>>>
>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and
>>>> how it can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>
>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>
>>
>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's
>> not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>
>>
> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
> make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on
> this path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies. I
> understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
> shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
> today but not for all of the tomorrows.
>
So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid well?
If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be paid well.
If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not deserve
that money?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 18:25:30 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:32:28 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>...snip...
>
>> >Brilliant.
>> >Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.
>
>The following are all good ideas. I just have a few questions.
>
>> 1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
>> who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).
>
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
Walker did a decent job in WI. Teacher's unions aren't all-powerful
here (right to work).
>> 2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
>> facilities.
>
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
The federal government requires tons of bullshit from schools. Without
this interference, the need for administrators goes down. But the big
thing is to not feed the beast more. Starve it.
>> 3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
>> whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
>> isn't needed.
>
> - Who will be responsible for this task?
Huh? The federal government (congress) invented the DoE, it's
obviously the only one that can kill it.
> - Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?
Huh? That makes no sense at all.
>> 4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
>> take their kids where they want.
>
> - Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)
The states and local governments control the school systems. It's
rather obvious...
>> 5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
>> you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
>> them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
>> schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.
>
> - What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?
I didn't say no cost. I said cut costs. You think all of the above
is free? Administration costs as much as teachers, usually
significantly more.
> - What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?
They don't participate, their little darling doesn't go to that
school. They get warehoused just as everyone (including those who
want to learn) is now.
> - Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)
Oh, good fucking Christ. Think.
> - Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."
You're bullshiting.
>>
>> 6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
>> mommies".
>>
>> I'm sure there are many others.
>>
>...snip...
On 3/22/15 4:54 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a
>>>>>>> salary way beyond what he actually brings to the work
>>>>>>> force? Why do certain laborers, factory workers for
>>>>>>> instance, feel that they should earn what some doctors
>>>>>>> earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and
>>>>>>> Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly involved in
>>>>>>> world trade we now see how our labor force was way over
>>>>>>> paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality
>>>>>>> than what we can build here but that will change. Even
>>>>>>> though their products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years
>>>>>>> ago we imported way less quality products from Japan
>>>>>>> than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in
>>>>>>> Japan I choose that product rather than, over priced and
>>>>>>> lesser quality American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the American
>>>>>>> automobile industry is in the shape it is in because of
>>>>>>> workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The
>>>>>> unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible
>>>>>> service to the labor force, have now brainwashed people
>>>>>> with high school educations and little to no skilled
>>>>>> training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp,
>>>>> heavy metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a
>>>>> "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>
>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went
>>>> through internships, training and continuing education, had to
>>>> pass licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she
>>>> started making that kind of money. I've never heard her once
>>>> describe her job as "fun."
>>>>
>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about
>>> her working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job,
>>> for instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know
>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
>>> but not as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>
>>
>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making
>> more than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't
>> lived there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I
>> personally think it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I
>> don't think they deserved the pay they were getting.
>
> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
> absolutely work as hard for their pay... Those guys have to be some
> of the most physically fit workers in the country as a whole. At
> least the ones that actually lift and empty the can by themselves.
> And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our collectors keep
> up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph, and grab the
> garbage cans too.
>
Yet, they could train orangutans to do that job in a month and they'd
work for whatever they picked out of the cans to eat.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>>> take its toll on your body.
>> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
>> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
>> English, I doubt they did that well.
>>
>>
>
> You had the choice to hire them.
> If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
> provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
> getting paid market value and workers' comp.
> Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
> there were doing.
>
>
I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
"first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
"rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.
Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>>>>> take its toll on your body.
>>>> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
>>>> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
>>>> English, I doubt they did that well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You had the choice to hire them.
>>> If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
>>> provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
>>> getting paid market value and workers' comp.
>>> Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
>>> there were doing.
>>>
>>>
>> I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
>> between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
>> arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
>> "first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
>> car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
>> "rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.
>>
>>
> Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
> hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.
>
I think they had one person who was in charge of the team, and that he
really knew who was who, based upon previous experience. And evidently,
if you weren't on time, you didn't work that day!
>
>
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:55:42 -0500, Leon wrote:
> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can
> by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to
> think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is
> good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.
That's a pretty good summary. The problem lies in the "want to do"
part. I've known a lot of computer programmers who hate what they do but
got into it because it paid well. And since there are so few good ones
to go around, they get away with it.
As an aside, I started in the late '50s. Companies were trying to devise
tests to find people they could train to do programming.Never did get a
really good test, but the best they came up with was 3 questions:
1. Do you like to do crossword puzzles?
2. Do you like to take tests?
3. Do you like to do jigsaw puzzles?
If you said no to all 3, they showed you the door. If you said yes to
all 3 they offered you the corner office :-). It did weed out the ones
who were hopeless, but wasn't as good at finding only the excellent
ones. A lot of mediocre to just adequate passed the test.
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>> educators.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>> tomorrows.
>>>
>>
>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>> well?
>
> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
> necessity.
>
>
>
>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>> paid well.
>>
>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>> deserve that money?
>
>
>
> Here is how I am looking at it.
>
> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
> rid their home of vermin.
>
> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>
> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
> traps.
>
> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
> therefore being the most deserved?
>
> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
> have done?
>
> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
> what you earn.
>
> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
> problem.
>
Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)
You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 5:58 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
>>>>> take its toll on your body.
>>>> For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
>>>> afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
>>>> English, I doubt they did that well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You had the choice to hire them.
>>> If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
>>> provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
>>> getting paid market value and workers' comp.
>>> Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
>>> there were doing.
>>>
>>>
>> I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
>> between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
>> arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
>> "first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
>> car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
>> "rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.
>>
>>
> Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
> hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.
>
Kinda sounds like you're familiar with the roofing business. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/22/15 6:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>>>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>>>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>>>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>
>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
>> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>
> Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
> right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
> That's where the left's policies lead.
>
Exactly.
If fun had anything at all to do with the equation, then Athletes DO
deserve to make millions. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions
>>>> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
>>>> work on
>>>> the assembly line, I just know
>>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
>>>> but not
>>>> as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
>>> than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
>>> there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
>>> it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
>>> deserved the pay they were getting.
>>
>> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
>> absolutely work as hard for their pay...
>> Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
>> country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
>> can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
>> collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
>> and grab the garbage cans too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
> and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
>
> Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
> I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
> not some.
>
The problem getting that is that the agencies that accredit schools
aren't measuring vocational skills. Put welding on the list, and they
wood have welding at every school--and in short order!
On 3/23/15 9:56 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be paid a salary way beyond what he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, feel that they should earn what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some doctors earn, of for that matter more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same quality than what we can build here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will change. Even though their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. 50 years ago we imported way less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan I choose that product rather than,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry. Plain and simple the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry is in the shape it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. The unions, which were needed at one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time and did an incredible service to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force, have now brainwashed people with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high school educations and little to no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you
>>>>>>>>>>>> all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3
>>>>>>>>>>> degrees, went through internships, training and
>>>>>>>>>>> continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>>>>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she
>>>>>>>>>>> started making that kind of money. I've never
>>>>>>>>>>> heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun".
>>>>>>>>>> Ask her about her working conditions or her risk of
>>>>>>>>>> being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are
>>>>>>>>>> over-payed, but not as over-payed as you think they
>>>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure
>>>>>>>>> there are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and
>>>>>>>>> devices in place on every assembly line in this
>>>>>>>>> country. If there some that aren't safe, they should
>>>>>>>>> be made safer. But what does that have to do with
>>>>>>>>> employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather have higher
>>>>>>>>> pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto
>>>>>>>>> assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>>>>>> $50k/yr plus benefits and retirement just because
>>>>>>>>> they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits.
>>>>>>>> The job will take its toll on your body. I have more of
>>>>>>>> a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their
>>>>>>> salaries will come into line...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned
>>>>>>>> with the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so
>>>>>>>> than income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't
>>>>>>>> have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that
>>>>>>> pays it's entertainers more than its health care workers
>>>>>>> and educators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in
>>>>> the movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is
>>>>> our society but on this path no one will be able to afford to
>>>>> go to the movies. I understand how we think this way and I
>>>>> understand why we are in the shape we are in. We put too
>>>>> much value in things that make us happy today but not for all
>>>>> of the tomorrows.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be
>>>> paid well?
>>>
>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to
>>> society the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work
>>> to do something that greatly benefits society as you would work
>>> playing a game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves
>>> the better pay. I don't really determine a persons worth by how
>>> much money he makes. I just believe that if you are providing a
>>> product or service that benefits one or many people, what you
>>> charge is of more value than a person that simply entertains.
>>> Value for money spent is more important. Is entertainment
>>> important, absolutely but IMHO not a necessity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should
>>>> be paid well.
>>>>
>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>> deserve that money?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>
>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of
>>> 25 million. Your product helps countless people with an actual
>>> need to rid their home of vermin.
>>>
>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit
>>> of 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6
>>> weeks.
>>>
>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse
>>> traps and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making
>>> the traps.
>>>
>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>
>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with
>>> either pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A
>>> year from now while the traps are still in use and the movie is
>>> all but forgotten which would job would make you feel the best
>>> about what you have done?
>>>
>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them
>>> for more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more
>>> deserving of what you earn.
>>>
>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as
>>> they can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have
>>> been conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can
>>> get while the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that
>>> is the problem.
>>>
>>
>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast
>> implant. Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>
> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
> players and entertainers.
>
>>
>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and
>> saying some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a
>> free market. You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with
>> socialism, you better hope whoever is setting that moral compass
>> lines up with your ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>
>
> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go
> in the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect
> system. Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players
> are getting paid more each year and the educators teaching our
> children are being paid less. Do we really want to give more
> recognition and pay to those that entertain and don't educate our
> children? I think it is pretty obvious that kids education and
> aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40 years ago. Not all of
> them but the percentages are growing. We seem to have a snow ball
> effect going on.
>
> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money
> on. It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a
> living so much as the value the consumer puts on some professions
> compared to others. You know if the government actually cared about
> education it would make things better but the dumber and more
> dependent the population is the easier it is to get the population to
> go along with bigger government.
>
I wouldn't argue with you about teachers. However, in some areas they
make up over 70, 80 grand a year, with all those breaks and summer. :-)
People will spend lots of money to go to professional sporting events,
but won't vote to raise property taxes to fund local schools. So in a
way they are making the choice to place entertainer above teachers.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> There are problems there too. You have homeowners with no kids that
> don't see the benefit of having a well educated society.
Bullshit! That is the most stupid statement I've seen on this group today.
Some of us did send kids to school, and some of us homeschooled our own
kids - so we absolutley do understand the benefit of a well educated
society. That said - now that our kids are on their own it is a bit of a
problem to think of paying increasing tax rates to pay for more and more
priviledges for school kids. Note - I'm not saying for education, I'm
saying for those other costs that have nothing to do with education. And by
the way - you really pissed me off with that assnined statement you made
above.
>
> The other problem is the value received. The US spends more per pupil
> for education than any other country, yet we are ranked about low for
> education. Why is that?
Well obviously - because those without kids in school don't see the benefit
of having a well educated society...
Sorry Edwin - I like most of your posts, but this one really rubbed the
wrong side of me...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
>
> It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this way
> and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.
Just so everyone is aware, Leon has been shown to be a big contributor to
the Liberal Gay And Lesbian Coalition in Support of Other Liberal Thoughts
and Ideologies, To Include Gun Control and Other Liberal Thoughts and
Ideologies. It's been said that he even built a coffee table for their
lobby...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this
>>> way and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.
>>
>> Just so everyone is aware, Leon has been shown to be a big
>> contributor to the Liberal Gay And Lesbian Coalition in Support of
>> Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies, To Include Gun Control and
>> Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies. It's been said that he even
>> built a coffee table for their lobby...
>>
>
> ,,,,,,,,,, Had I not had an in with these organizations through the
> president, YOU, it never wood'a happened.
Shhhhhh - I told you, my role is supposed to be secret...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 6:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There are problems there too. You have homeowners with no kids that
>>> don't see the benefit of having a well educated society.
>>
>> Bullshit! That is the most stupid statement I've seen on this group
>> today. Some of us did send kids to school, and some of us
>> homeschooled our own kids - so we absolutley do understand the
>> benefit of a well educated society.
>
>>
>> Sorry Edwin - I like most of your posts, but this one really rubbed
>> the wrong side of me...
>>
>
>
> No problem, you showed your lack of understanding and took a general
> statement personal. Notice, you said "some of us". Right. some do,
> some don't. Go to a town meeting about the budget and just listen to
> some of the older people and single people bitch about the education
> budget.
>
I've actually been to those meetings and I've heard that stuff. Used to be
I thought it was wrong. Now that I'm further along in life, I don't see
that line of thinking as so wrong anymore. Especially since our school
systems seem to have progressed to more of catering to non-educational
interests of students and their parents, and less to providing fundamental
education.
BTW - I only took exception to your general statement - I did not take it
personally. I know you are not a personal attacking sort of guy.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:59:12 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>>>> that is not helping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
>>>> says that is good though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>>
>> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>>
>> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
>> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>>
>> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>>
>> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>>
>
>Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
>complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
>appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
>overseas at a much lower cost?
Agreed but US made stuff (appliances, anyway) do exist. It's usually
the people who bitch the most about exporting jobs are 1) the ones
buying foreign products when there is a US made alternative and 2)
vote for those who are causing companies to move jobs outside the US.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>-MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
>>> what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>> have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
>>> was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
>>> can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
>>> pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
>>> choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>> American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>
>>
>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>
>Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
>things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
That's where the left's policies lead.
>> full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
>> prices for all the things they buy.
>>
>>
On 3/22/2015 4:36 PM, Bill wrote:
> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>
No, so I got an education and went in a different direction, though in
manufacturing. Kwityerbitchin and do the same if you don't like it.
You deserve a safe working place and a fair wage for the work you do.
Nothing more.
On 3/22/2015 7:31 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
>>>>>>>> beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
>>>>>>>> should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
>>>>>>>> our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
>>>>>>>> and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
>>>>>>>> US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
>>>>>>>> now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
>>>>>>>> not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
>>>>>>>> change. Even though their products are often inferior they
>>>>>>>> absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
>>>>>>>> years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
>>>>>>>> we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
>>>>>>>> that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
>>>>>>>> simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
>>>>>>>> because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
>>>>>>>> supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
>>>>>>> were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
>>>>>>> force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
>>>>>>> little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions
>>>> or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
>>>> the assembly line, I just know
>>>> some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but
>>>> not
>>>> as over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
>>> than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
>>> there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
>>> it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
>>> deserved the pay they were getting.
>>
>> It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
>> absolutely work as hard for their pay...
>> Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
>> country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
>> can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
>> collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
>> and grab the garbage cans too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
> and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.
that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can
up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the
assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I
think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have
to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along
side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing
trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,
provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.
>
> Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
> I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
> not some.
You can say that again and again and again. Unfortunately this is not
as cool as going to college and failing.
On 3/22/2015 11:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>>>>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>>>>>> I'm concerned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>>>>>> that is not helping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
>>>>> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
>>>> Lew
>>>> says that is good though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> California, where normal is upside down and backwards.
>>
>> I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.
>>
>> Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
>> when they post something that someone else disagrees with.
>>
>> I think it all started in California and spread eastward...
>>
>> At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0
>>
>
> Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
> complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
> appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
> overseas at a much lower cost?
Stepping up to the podium with flame suit.
Our problems are self generated by the type society that most all of us
were born into. I think what we all really want is value for the amount
of money we are spending. The problem is that we simply can't afford to
live like we do, so we buy cheap.
Fifty years ago it was common for the man to work and the woman to stay
at home and raise the family. For the most part that worked just fine
and I suspect that most every thing that was purchased was of good to
fine quality. Then comes the television and "commercials". Now we are
lead to believe that every one needs and will own the product being
advertized. But a single salary will not allow that. So years later mom
goes to work and the kids are raised by baby sitters, school programs,
etc. Those programs cost money. So, the kids in general, learn their
values from strangers also, and this is quite confusing. The kids loose
focus on what is the right way and wrong way to earn things and come to
learn that they deserve what they want when they want it. They go
deeply into debt. Because they don't see this as a problem, everyone
else is doing it, they believe this is the norm. Basically they are
displaying their ignorance of what they can and cannot afford. Just
because you can make the payments does not mean you can afford it. As a
side note, I was shocked to learn what many consider to be the meaning
of "debt free". It is common these days to think that having a mortgage
and car payments is debt free, if you do not carry a balance on credit
cards. Just under 35 years ago if you bought a home on a 30 year
mortgage you basically paid for that house 4 times. And add to that,
homes were in high demand and way over priced. But hey we could afford
the payments although little else unless mom had a job too.
Now the hard part, entitlement. We have all learned through our
government that we are entitled to have everything that every one else
has. So the person that can't keep a job, does not take care of his
family, knows little to nothing about financing, and how crippling that
can be, is promised hope by the government. The government rewards this
behavior of paying his way with out a requirement to work or to pay back
that debt, or limit this help. It will all be OK, we all will help pay
for this behavior through taxes.
Consider also those that are not dependent on the government, to get by,
but feel entitled.
Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way beyond
what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain laborers,
factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn what some
doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators? Entitlement.
Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced
American workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was way over paid
for their production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on
occasion not of the same quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are often inferior they
absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from China
and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that product rather
than, over priced and lesser quality American made. Just look at the
American automobile industry. Plain and simple the American automobile
industry is in the shape it is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly represented them. Want to talk
the computer industry, housing industry, real estate industry? Are you
listening California?
No one thing is wrong or to blame aside from the fact that the majority
of us expect to be paid way more than we each personally deserve from
our contribution to society. And our expectations of entitlement.
Because we can't see this we also can't see why we are where we are at.
If we would only expect what we deserve, things would get better.
Done.
On 3/23/2015 9:01 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>>> well?
>>>>
>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>>> necessity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>>> paid well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>>
>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>>
>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>>> traps.
>>>>
>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>
>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>>> have done?
>>>>
>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>>> what you earn.
>>>>
>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>>
>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>
>> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
>> himself. Freedom is good.
>
> And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
> decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
> education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
> and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
> emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
> our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
> less important than other things.
> Right now we are in an "ignorance is bliss" scenario.
>
Civilization is still evolving. ;-)
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>> well?
>>
>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>> necessity.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>> paid well.
>>>
>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>> deserve that money?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>
>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>> rid their home of vermin.
>>
>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>
>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>> traps.
>>
>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>
>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>> have done?
>>
>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>> what you earn.
>>
>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>> problem.
>>
>
>Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>
>You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
himself. Freedom is good.
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:04:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:47:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>> into line...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
>>>> unfair pay.
>>>> It's the free market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
>>> make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
>>> path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.
>>
>> If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
>> every penny of it.
>
>And that falls true in a "It's all about me" society.
Of course it is. Society would be a whole lot *better* if everyone
optimized their situation rather than taking from another.
>>
>>> I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
>>> shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
>>> today but not for all of the tomorrows.
>>
>> No, people pay for what *THEY* value. No more.
>
>Missing it.
It's called "choice".
On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>>> well?
>>>
>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>>> necessity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>>> paid well.
>>>>
>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>> deserve that money?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>
>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>>> rid their home of vermin.
>>>
>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>>
>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>>> traps.
>>>
>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>
>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>>> have done?
>>>
>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>>> what you earn.
>>>
>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>>> problem.
>>>
>>
>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
>> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>
>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
>> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
>> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
>> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
>> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>
> Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
> himself. Freedom is good.
And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
less important than other things.
Right now we are in an "ignorance is bliss" scenario.
On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>
>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>
>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>
>>>>
>>
>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>> now, screwed up.
>
> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
> irrelevant.
>
Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:28:15 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:55:42 -0500, Leon wrote:
>
>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can
>> by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to
>> think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is
>> good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.
>
>That's a pretty good summary. The problem lies in the "want to do"
>part. I've known a lot of computer programmers who hate what they do but
>got into it because it paid well. And since there are so few good ones
>to go around, they get away with it.
>
>As an aside, I started in the late '50s. Companies were trying to devise
>tests to find people they could train to do programming.Never did get a
>really good test, but the best they came up with was 3 questions:
>
>1. Do you like to do crossword puzzles?
>2. Do you like to take tests?
>3. Do you like to do jigsaw puzzles?
>
>If you said no to all 3, they showed you the door. If you said yes to
>all 3 they offered you the corner office :-). It did weed out the ones
>who were hopeless, but wasn't as good at finding only the excellent
>ones. A lot of mediocre to just adequate passed the test.
In the late '70s and early '80s, IBM was retraining every technician
and secretary to become a programmer. The training was pretty intense
and there was no guarantee of a job if you failed the course but they
got a *lot* of programmers out of the deal.
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>> into line...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>
>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>
>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>
>>>
>
>But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>now, screwed up.
That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.
On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/26/2015 7:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>>>> is that simple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>>
>>>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>>>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>>>> though.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>>>> debt free since 1997.
>>>>
>>>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>>> computer in 1986.
>>
>> Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
>> problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
>
>LOL, are you one of those?
One of what?
>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>
>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>
>Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
>amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
>the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
>the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
>Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
>I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>>> owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>>> and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>>> not thought of this himself.
>>
>> Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
>> the time value of money.
>
>Well, it is the norm to have house payments, most don't think of not
>having them. I also pointed out to him that putting extra money in on
>his regular payment was like getting the same interest back as a savings
>account would have done at the time. If his mortgage interest rate was
>8% it was like earning 8% on the extra money he paid in each month as he
>was not paying interest on that amount.
I still find it amazing. Business owners have to understand interest.
that their knowledge of business doesn't translate to their personal
life is weird.
>>
>>> Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>>> 16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>>> to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>>> and then paying extra with each payment.
>>
>> We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
>> years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
>> but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
>> $30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
>
>Yeah we had 2 car payments too. As we paid each off that payment went
>into the house payment.
We don't have a car payment (on $60K in vehicles), just a small
mortgage (less than half that). We chose to pay off the vehicles and
keep the mortgage.
>
>>>
>>> So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
>>> society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
>>> that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
>>> This needs to be taught.
>>
>> Good idea. There are many things that need to be taught but it's not
>> going to happen in the schools.
>
>Hard to say, it mostly depends on whether the big machine allows it or not.
Well, there you have your answer.
>>> I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
>>> for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.
>>
>> He was kidding. It's not unusual, at all, for people to pay cash for
>> homes. A quick search finds an article that states that 42% of
>> purchases were cash transactions in Nov '13.
>
>I'm still talking about 20 years ago and late 30's to early 40
>somethings. IIRC no one I knew was not paying a mortgage or rent.
The numbers for 2013 were up but it wasn't zero 20 years ago. I doubt
it's ever been less than 25% but that's just a guess (without
searching).
>>
>> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nearly-half-of-all-homes-are-purchased-in-cash-2013-08-29
>>
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>
if you knew RPN, were only useful, They.
Well, actually I think around 30 years ago TI had come out with the TI30, a
scientific calculator still available for less than $30. (They're more
like $12 now, with two-line display so the calculator is not read only.)
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Puckdropper" wrote:
> Well, actually I think around 30 years ago TI had come out with the
> TI30, a
> scientific calculator still available for less than $30. (They're
> more
> like $12 now, with two-line display so the calculator is not read
> only.)
---------------------------------------------
Still have one that is solar powered as well as Scientific and
straight math.
Had it for at least 30 years, and yes less than $20.
Lew
Ya made me go dig it out.
It's a TI-36-X solar powered and includes trig and statistics.
If I spent $15, was either hung over of just felt flush.
Lew
-------------------------------------------------------
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> Well, actually I think around 30 years ago TI had come out with the
>> TI30, a
>> scientific calculator still available for less than $30. (They're
>> more
>> like $12 now, with two-line display so the calculator is not read
>> only.)
> ---------------------------------------------
> Still have one that is solar powered as well as Scientific and
> straight math.
>
> Had it for at least 30 years, and yes less than $20.
>
> Lew
>
>
On 3/27/2015 7:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/26/2015 7:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>>>>>> is that simple.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>>>>>> to be taught in your education.
>>>>>
>>>>> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
>>>>> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
>>>>> though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>>>>>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>>>>>> debt free since 1997.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
>>>> computer in 1986.
>>>
>>> Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
>>> problem without one, you can't solve it with one.
>>
>> LOL, are you one of those?
>
> One of what?
>
>>>> I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
>>>> extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
>>>> years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
>>>> 30 year mortgage.
>>>
>>> Interest tables will do the same thing.
>>
>> Essentially that is what my spread sheet did, except it let you vary the
>> amount of monthly extra contribution or not and shows you the date that
>> the loan would be paid with or with out contributions and after pay off
>> the amount you saved for the remainder of the original term.
>> Keep in mind that I made up this spread sheet almost 30 years ago.
>> I'm sure that there are better ways now but back then not so much.
>
> It's called a calculator. They were available back then. ;-)
>
>>>> I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
>>>> All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
>>>> immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
>>>> owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
>>>> and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
>>>> not thought of this himself.
>>>
>>> Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
>>> the time value of money.
>>
>> Well, it is the norm to have house payments, most don't think of not
>> having them. I also pointed out to him that putting extra money in on
>> his regular payment was like getting the same interest back as a savings
>> account would have done at the time. If his mortgage interest rate was
>> 8% it was like earning 8% on the extra money he paid in each month as he
>> was not paying interest on that amount.
>
> I still find it amazing. Business owners have to understand interest.
> that their knowledge of business doesn't translate to their personal
> life is weird.
>
>>>
>>>> Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
>>>> 16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
>>>> to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
>>>> and then paying extra with each payment.
>>>
>>> We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
>>> years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
>>> but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
>>> $30K now and it will be paid off shortly.
>>
>> Yeah we had 2 car payments too. As we paid each off that payment went
>> into the house payment.
>
> We don't have a car payment (on $60K in vehicles), just a small
> mortgage (less than half that). We chose to pay off the vehicles and
> keep the mortgage.
We "had" car payments and a mortgage about 25 years ago. In the last 18
years we have been paying cash for vehicles and paid cash 4 years ago
for our current home.
>>
>>>>
>>>> So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
>>>> society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
>>>> that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
>>>> This needs to be taught.
>>>
>>> Good idea. There are many things that need to be taught but it's not
>>> going to happen in the schools.
>>
>> Hard to say, it mostly depends on whether the big machine allows it or not.
>
> Well, there you have your answer.
>
>>>> I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
>>>> for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.
>>>
>>> He was kidding. It's not unusual, at all, for people to pay cash for
>>> homes. A quick search finds an article that states that 42% of
>>> purchases were cash transactions in Nov '13.
>>
>> I'm still talking about 20 years ago and late 30's to early 40
>> somethings. IIRC no one I knew was not paying a mortgage or rent.
>
> The numbers for 2013 were up but it wasn't zero 20 years ago. I doubt
> it's ever been less than 25% but that's just a guess (without
> searching).
>>>
>>> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nearly-half-of-all-homes-are-purchased-in-cash-2013-08-29
>>>
On 3/28/2015 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>
> Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
> the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
> explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
> save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
> necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
> The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
> peoples brains.
I work with a woman that has never lived in a bought house. Her parents
rented, when she was married they rented, she still rents, Upon
retirement her plan is to go into senior housing. She seems to be
content with it, but that is not what I aspired to.
>
> I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
> payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
> don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
Same here. Long time ago and did not like it.
>
> The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
> risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
> income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
> investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
> may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
My goal was to have the house paid for long before retirement. I'm now
collecting social security (still working 80% too) Taxes, insurance,
utilities are all iIneed to survive. I like the idea of knowing my ass
will not be out on the street in my old age. Or having a nasty landlord.
>
>
>
On 3/27/2015 10:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:05:48 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/26/2015 8:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
>>>> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
>>>> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
>>>> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
>>>> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
>>>> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
>>>> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
>>>> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
>>>> long before he started college.
>>>
>>>
>>> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
>>> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
>>> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
>>> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
>>> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
>>> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
>>
>> Well I can almost understand it these days with interest rates as low as
>> they are. Keep the cash and make a monthly payment that is likely to
>> never be paid off. It is not a great way to look at it but if you have
>> a life expectancy of another 7~8 years and you buy a home with a 30 year
>> mortgage you get to keep most of your cash and have the big house too.
>
> People often look at their mortgage as rent. IMO, it's completely
> understandable. Most simply don't have the money to pay the mortgage
> early in its life and later on it loses its leverage. With interest
> rates as they are, there is a school of thought that says that there
> are better investments (not that I agree).
>
Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
peoples brains.
I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
On 3/28/2015 7:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/28/2015 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Exactly, I still remember looking at my mother, dumbfounded. I showed
>> the spreadsheet schedule to my father, he was an accountant, and
>> explained how soon he could pay off his home and how much money he could
>> save. My mother commented, why do you want to make payments bigger than
>> necessary, you will always have house payments or rent.
>> The notion of constantly being in debt is imprinted in way too many
>> peoples brains.
>
> I work with a woman that has never lived in a bought house. Her parents
> rented, when she was married they rented, she still rents, Upon
> retirement her plan is to go into senior housing. She seems to be
> content with it, but that is not what I aspired to.
She was never taught, in a way she could understand, to think
differently. There is a shocking amount of people that think that way.
>
>
>>
>> I believe that most people that can't put any extra money in with their
>> payments have bitten off more than they can chew to begin with. And I
>> don't feel sorry for those people. I have been there.
>
> Same here. Long time ago and did not like it.
>
>>
>> The biggest advantage to paying your home off is greatly reducing the
>> risk of loosing it. Yes you can make other investments but if you loose
>> income and cant afford those investments you may only loose your
>> investment. If you can't make house payments you loose your home and
>> may not be able to afford rent either. Than where do you go?
>
> My goal was to have the house paid for long before retirement. I'm now
> collecting social security (still working 80% too) Taxes, insurance,
> utilities are all iIneed to survive. I like the idea of knowing my ass
> will not be out on the street in my old age. Or having a nasty landlord.
Exactly. Unfortunately down here we still have the threat of the
government and taxes, even if our homes are paid off. But fortunately
at 65 you still owe taxes but you can take an exemption and pay them
with penalty when you sell, if you sell. ;~)
On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:05:48 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/26/2015 8:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
>>> In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
>>> all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
>>> a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
>>> our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
>>> enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
>>> that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
>>> very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
>>> long before he started college.
>>
>>
>> In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
>> mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
>> me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
>> they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
>> power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
>> to live your daily life with the house paid off.
>
>Well I can almost understand it these days with interest rates as low as
>they are. Keep the cash and make a monthly payment that is likely to
>never be paid off. It is not a great way to look at it but if you have
>a life expectancy of another 7~8 years and you buy a home with a 30 year
>mortgage you get to keep most of your cash and have the big house too.
People often look at their mortgage as rent. IMO, it's completely
understandable. Most simply don't have the money to pay the mortgage
early in its life and later on it loses its leverage. With interest
rates as they are, there is a school of thought that says that there
are better investments (not that I agree).
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:49:26 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 7:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
>> every penny of it.
>>
>
>That is the part that can be difficult to quantify.
It's not difficult to quantify at all. Hollywood knows what star
power is worth. They have a track record to go by (which is also why
male actors are paid significantly more than female).
>Sure, people will
>go because Clint Eastwood stars in a movie, but would it be just as good
>with Bob Westwood who earns $20 an hour?
Certainly not because as you suggest, no one will spend the $20-$30 to
go see Bob Westwood. They *will* fork over to see Dirty Harry say "So
do ya' punk?!".
On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid a salary way beyond what he actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings to the work force? Why do certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they should earn what some doctors earn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of for that matter more than our educators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>> became majorly involved in world trade we now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how our labor force was way over paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality than what we can build here but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will change. Even though their products are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> often inferior they absolutely offer a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we imported way less quality products from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is made in Japan I choose that product
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than, over priced and lesser quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>> American made. Just look at the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry. Plain and simple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> American automobile industry is in the shape it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did
>>>>>>>>>>>> an incredible service to the labor force, have
>>>>>>>>>>>> now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
>>>>>>>>>>> day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
>>>>>>>>>> went through internships, training and continuing
>>>>>>>>>> education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
>>>>>>>>>> years experience before she started making that kind
>>>>>>>>>> of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
>>>>>>>>>> as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
>>>>>>>>> her about her working conditions or her risk of being
>>>>>>>>> injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
>>>>>>>>> assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
>>>>>>>>> agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
>>>>>>>> are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
>>>>>>>> place on every assembly line in this country. If there
>>>>>>>> some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
>>>>>>>> what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
>>>>>>>> saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
>>>>>>>> line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
>>>>>>>> benefits and retirement just because they have a
>>>>>>>> dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
>>>>>>> job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
>>>>>>> problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
>>>>>> will come into line...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
>>>>>>> the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
>>>>>>> income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
>>>>>>> of the answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
>>>>>> it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
>>>>>> educators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
>>>> movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
>>>> society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
>>>> the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
>>>> why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
>>>> things that make us happy today but not for all of the
>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
>>> well?
>>
>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
>> the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
>> something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
>> game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
>> I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
>> I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
>> benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
>> person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
>> important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
>> necessity.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
>>> paid well.
>>>
>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>> deserve that money?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>
>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
>> million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
>> rid their home of vermin.
>>
>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
>> 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
>>
>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
>> and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
>> traps.
>>
>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>
>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
>> pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
>> now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
>> forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
>> have done?
>>
>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
>> more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
>> what you earn.
>>
>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
>> can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
>> conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
>> the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
>> problem.
>>
>
> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
> Bald Eagle trap. :-)
Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.
>
> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
> some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
> You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
> better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
> ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>
I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.
Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.
And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
bigger government.
On 3/22/2015 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
snip
>>>
>>
>> That has been my contention for the longest time.
>> The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
>> to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>
> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
> things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?
Good question but most all laborers deal with this every day. If your
job requires physical activity it is likely going to have some risk. I
think a roofer probably has one of the most dangerous job.
On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:
>>> Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
>>> again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
>>> I'm concerned.
>>>
>>> A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>>
>> You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
>> that is not helping.
>
> Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
> ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
Lew says that is good though.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:35:18 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>
>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>> it slows them down.
>>
>
>Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
>isn't any fun. :-)
But you can bet the boss supplies it.
On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>> its toll on your body.
>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>
>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>> into line...
>>
>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>
>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>
> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
> pay (for) them.
And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:19:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>
>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>> it slows them down.
>>
>To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
>safety equipment.
>I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
>down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
>being burned by the scorching hot shingles.
>
It's the same here. I see the monkeys climbing all over 15:12 roofs,
with no safety equipment. I'm sure it's in the truck, though (and the
boss "thinks" it's being used).
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>
>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>> environment?
>>>
>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>> its toll on your body.
>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>
>Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>into line...
>
>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>
>There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.
>
>
>
On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>>
>>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>>
>>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>>> is that simple.
>>>
>>
>> And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>> to be taught in your education.
>
> Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
> though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
> though.
>>
>>
>> I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>> very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>> debt free since 1997.
>
> So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
>
LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
computer in 1986.
I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
30 year mortgage.
I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
not thought of this himself.
Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
and then paying extra with each payment.
So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
This needs to be taught.
I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>>>>>>>>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
>>>>>>>>>>>> its toll on your body.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
>>>>>>>>>>> into line...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
>>>>>>>>>>> entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
>>>>>>>>>> skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
>>>>>>>>>> see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
>>>>>>>>>> and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
>>>>>>>>>> end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
>>>>>>>>>> pay (for) them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
>>>>>>>>> is at today as far as the economy goes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
>>>>>>>> unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
>>>>>>> now, screwed up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
>>>>>> won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
>>>>>> irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
>>>>> make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
>>>>> after I have spent my rainy day money.
>>>>>
>>>> Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
>>>> the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
>>>> hammock out of the safety net.
>>>>
>>> And every one spends exactly like you.
>>
>> Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
>> is that simple.
>>
>
>And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
>to be taught in your education.
Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
though.
>
>
>I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
>very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
>debt free since 1997.
So you admit that it's possible. ;-)
On 3/22/2015 9:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:35:18 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
>>>>>>>>> way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
>>>>>>>>> do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
>>>>>>>>> they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
>>>>>>>>> more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
>>>>>>>>> wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
>>>>>>>>> workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
>>>>>>>>> way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
>>>>>>>>> what we can build here but that will change. Even though
>>>>>>>>> their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
>>>>>>>>> better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
>>>>>>>>> imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
>>>>>>>>> product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
>>>>>>>>> and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
>>>>>>>>> it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
>>>>>>>>> unions that supposedly represented them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
>>>>>>>> which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
>>>>>>>> the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
>>>>>>>> educations and little to no skilled training that they are
>>>>>>>> worth $50k +
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
>>>>>>> metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
>>>>>>> do Everyday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
>>>>>> internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
>>>>>> licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
>>>>>> making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
>>>>>> job as "fun."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
>>>>> working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
>>>>> instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
>>>>> over-payed as you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
>>>> dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
>>>> in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
>>>> safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
>>>> Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
>>>> environment?
>>>>
>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
>>>> harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
>>>> than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
>>>> plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?
>>>
>>> I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
>>> it slows them down.
>>>
>>
>> Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
>> isn't any fun. :-)
>
> But you can bet the boss supplies it.
>
Not when the boss and his crew has only been in the country for a few weeks.
On 3/23/2015 10:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/23/15 9:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does a common laborer feel entitled to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be paid a salary way beyond what he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually brings to the work force? Why do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain laborers, factory workers for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, feel that they should earn what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some doctors earn, of for that matter more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have replaced American workers? Now that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the US and other countries became majorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in world trade we now see how our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force was way over paid for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production. Yes China and Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built-products are on occasion not of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same quality than what we can build here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will change. Even though their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products are often inferior they absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer a better value, you get what you pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. 50 years ago we imported way less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality products from Japan than we do from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China and Mexico. Now if it is made in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan I choose that product rather than,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over priced and lesser quality American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. Just look at the American automobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry. Plain and simple the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automobile industry is in the shape it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in because of workers with entitlement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues and the unions that supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represented them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That has been my contention for the longest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. The unions, which were needed at one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time and did an incredible service to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labor force, have now brainwashed people with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high school educations and little to no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skilled training that they are worth $50k +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think standing on an assembly line with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyday?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF does fun have to do with anything!?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife went to school for years to earn 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees, went through internships, training and
>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing education, had to pass licensing
>>>>>>>>>>>> exams, and had 10 years experience before she
>>>>>>>>>>>> started making that kind of money. I've never
>>>>>>>>>>>> heard her once describe her job as "fun."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun".
>>>>>>>>>>> Ask her about her working conditions or her risk of
>>>>>>>>>>> being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
>>>>>>>>>>> who have. I agree with you that they are
>>>>>>>>>>> over-payed, but not as over-payed as you think they
>>>>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure
>>>>>>>>>> there are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and
>>>>>>>>>> devices in place on every assembly line in this
>>>>>>>>>> country. If there some that aren't safe, they should
>>>>>>>>>> be made safer. But what does that have to do with
>>>>>>>>>> employee pay? Are you saying you'd rather have higher
>>>>>>>>>> pay than a safe working environment?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about all the roofers around here who don't have
>>>>>>>>>> safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto
>>>>>>>>>> assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to
>>>>>>>>>> $50k/yr plus benefits and retirement just because
>>>>>>>>>> they have a dangerous job?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits.
>>>>>>>>> The job will take its toll on your body. I have more of
>>>>>>>>> a problem with what professional athletes get.
>>>>>>>>> Income-inequity is a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well stop buying the advertized products and their
>>>>>>>> salaries will come into line...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just reading about a new organization concerned
>>>>>>>>> with the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so
>>>>>>>>> than income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't
>>>>>>>>> have all of the answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is certainly something wrong with a society that
>>>>>>>> pays it's entertainers more than its health care workers
>>>>>>>> and educators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
>>>>>>> it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think? Does your contribution to society for being in
>>>>>> the movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is
>>>>>> our society but on this path no one will be able to afford to
>>>>>> go to the movies. I understand how we think this way and I
>>>>>> understand why we are in the shape we are in. We put too
>>>>>> much value in things that make us happy today but not for all
>>>>>> of the tomorrows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be
>>>>> paid well?
>>>>
>>>> Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to
>>>> society the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work
>>>> to do something that greatly benefits society as you would work
>>>> playing a game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves
>>>> the better pay. I don't really determine a persons worth by how
>>>> much money he makes. I just believe that if you are providing a
>>>> product or service that benefits one or many people, what you
>>>> charge is of more value than a person that simply entertains.
>>>> Value for money spent is more important. Is entertainment
>>>> important, absolutely but IMHO not a necessity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should
>>>>> be paid well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
>>>>> deserve that money?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is how I am looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of
>>>> 25 million. Your product helps countless people with an actual
>>>> need to rid their home of vermin.
>>>>
>>>> You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit
>>>> of 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6
>>>> weeks.
>>>>
>>>> You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse
>>>> traps and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making
>>>> the traps.
>>>>
>>>> Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
>>>> therefore being the most deserved?
>>>>
>>>> Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with
>>>> either pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A
>>>> year from now while the traps are still in use and the movie is
>>>> all but forgotten which would job would make you feel the best
>>>> about what you have done?
>>>>
>>>> "IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them
>>>> for more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more
>>>> deserving of what you earn.
>>>>
>>>> And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as
>>>> they can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have
>>>> been conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can
>>>> get while the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that
>>>> is the problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
>>> mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast
>>> implant. Bald Eagle trap. :-)
>>
>> Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
>> provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
>> players and entertainers.
>>
>>>
>>> You're putting your own moral value on services or things and
>>> saying some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a
>>> free market. You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with
>>> socialism, you better hope whoever is setting that moral compass
>>> lines up with your ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
>> those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go
>> in the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect
>> system. Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players
>> are getting paid more each year and the educators teaching our
>> children are being paid less. Do we really want to give more
>> recognition and pay to those that entertain and don't educate our
>> children? I think it is pretty obvious that kids education and
>> aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40 years ago. Not all of
>> them but the percentages are growing. We seem to have a snow ball
>> effect going on.
>>
>> And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
>> government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
>> that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money
>> on. It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a
>> living so much as the value the consumer puts on some professions
>> compared to others. You know if the government actually cared about
>> education it would make things better but the dumber and more
>> dependent the population is the easier it is to get the population to
>> go along with bigger government.
>>
>
> I wouldn't argue with you about teachers. However, in some areas they
> make up over 70, 80 grand a year, with all those breaks and summer. :-)
>
> People will spend lots of money to go to professional sporting events,
> but won't vote to raise property taxes to fund local schools. So in a
> way they are making the choice to place entertainer above teachers.
>
I don't believe the government needs more money to shift what it has
towards education. And for that matter the government in the Houston
area of the woods does not often ask for tax rate changes, they simply
over value the value of your home to get more revenue.