I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.
The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
Well, you know, that just won't do.
I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?
I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?
Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
tom
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
With sufficient training and appropriate supervision, I'm sure an 11 year
old could, safely. Which was rather the point elsewhere.
I keep a box of bandaids in the shop for visitors who, almost without
exception, eventually grab a carving gouge off the bench to take a test cut
or two. Adults need close supervision also.
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:51:12 +0000, Tom Watson wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
which looks absolutely correct to me unless it's bespoke to a single user's
exact arm measurement when there'll be less variation in forearm positioning
for the next _n_ years. (nice looking piece, btw)
DNFWI.
What do I know? I live in a country where they don't even allow guns to be
kept locked up in gun club ranges anymore..
>
Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote in
news:0b8a0495-a913-4136-a2d8-794a9b2fc8d4@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
*snip*
> Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
> than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
> everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
> without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
> And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
> we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
> stats drop a bit.
>
When I went through HS driver's ed and was qualified to get my license, my
parents weren't ready. How many kids have that kind of "problem" at home?
Hit a deer once, got rear ended once, and that's it. That basically
mirrors my parent's record.
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
>
Ahhhh...., you are an advocate of keeping the kids ignorant and stupid.
There was a time whenit was considered a rite of passage that all 12 year
old boys got a single shot .22 to learn basic firearm safety and skills.
The safety and skills are the key.
You can't keep the kids locked up forever. And the skills learned will serve
him for the rest of his life.
On Dec 11, 12:30=A0pm, Aardvark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
> > I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> >http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3D3=A0for my eleven year old
> > for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
>
You know, it's funny how cultural differences really pile up. I'm a
liberal, born and raised just outside NYC, but I also enjoy guns,
though I no longer shoot. I know for a fact Tom Watson is a careful
and loving parent, who has already helped his son through Pinewood
Derby competitions and taught him to fish, among many other things.
His children's accomplishments, and what he wants to teach them,
sometimes dominate our conversations, but always pleasantly.
The fact is, any gun, even a single shot .22 like the CZ Tom bought,
is a deadly weapon.
So are kitchen knives.
The only real difference is the range.
Careful handling instructions result in careful handling.
Aardvark, you obviously don't understand the kicks kids, and a lot of
adults, get in seeing precisely placed shots hit a target, whether
that target is on a range, or is just a tin can in a back yard
(probably not advisable in most of the east any more).
Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
stats drop a bit.
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:58:58 GMT, Aardvark cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
>
> I have taught my two lads (10 and 14) marksmanship and weapon safety with
> a .22 air rifle which is always kept under lock and key. If I'm not
> there, the rifle stays locked away and I'll only let them use it under my
> supervision. I certainly wouldn't dream of allowing either of them to
> have a REAL firearm even if it were less difficult to acquire one easily.
>
>
> I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
> something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
> 'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
> to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
> population.
>
>
> I would say 'vociferously misinterpret the Second Amendment', but who
> says my opinion should amount to more than a pile of sheep shit?
>
> It's difficult to think of any legitimate reason for anyone to keep a
> firearm in their home. You may say that it's to protect your home against
> intruders. I would say that if you were to shoot an intruder the fact
> that you had a firearm in your home at all implies premeditation on your
> part and therefore you should be prosecuted by the law in much the same
> way as if you had walked into the street with a firearm and shot the
> first person you came across.
>
Well, everyone is has an opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours.
Beyond that, you've contributed in this group in other threads that I
believe have established in a certain way. That said - with respect to
your opinions on guns, your opinions on the interpretation of the 2nd
ammendment, and your views in this thread in general, let me only say that
you succeeded in arousing more than one moment for me, where I felt like
responding in a less civil manner. Probably all the better you decided to
bail out of this thread at this point. At least it saves me giving way to
those expressions, and then saying "damn - I sure wish I hadn't said that,
that way...".
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"David Merrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:yNC%k.473166$yE1.395246@attbi_s21...
> Just about the age when I was allowed to buy my first .22 rifle, a
> Mossberg
> bolt action. I eventually refinished the stock with a hand rubbed oil
> finish that came out beautifully; didn't attempt checkering, though bought
> a
> checkering tool and was working up the nerve to attempt it. Ended up
> employed as a research engineer for Winchester for 26 years starting in
> 1964
> (the year of the production press checkering). During my initial
> orientation I got to spend a day with Nick Kusmit one of the last of the
> Winchester Custom Shop engravers (and an exceptional person). During the
> late 1960's, early 1970's one of my co-workers collaborated on the
> development of a production cut checkering process sufficiently economical
> to finally eliminate the press checkering, to the considerable relief to
> all
> who appreciated fine firearms.
>
> John G has given you the keys to the mechanics of the process. It's not
> magic. My advice is that checkering should be approached with love and
> patience (and a well planned and tasteful paper pattern). I'd suggest
> first
> presenting your fine gift to your son as its makers crafted it. After a
> period of ownership that concentrates on the appreciation of fine
> wood/metal
> craftsmanship, safe gun handling and the pure joy of sport shooting, then
> see if the boy feels any desire to checker or otherwise customize it. Be
> guided by his desires.
I've got a couple of CZ Ringneck model SxS shotguns. They were reasonably
priced and they handle nicely... That said, I'm a fan of their guns and
personally find the Lux attractive. I second David's suggestion to let him
use the gun as-is for now.
BTW, I took a look around the CZ site and noticed they have added models to
their .22 line up... I think I just found my next gun. ;~)
RE engravers, I had the opportunity to meet and spend some time with Lynton
McKenzie when I worked in Colonial Williamsburg's Gunsmith Shop. Absolutely
amazing work that makes my empire dovetails look like child's play. ;~) The
closest I ever got to Kusmit is photos in books and magazines... more
amazing work!
John
Charlie Groh wrote:#A general query here: does the company make *any*
models with a checkered forearm? #If so, would it be kosher to call
the company and,
well you know, see if you can get *them* to do it?
~~~~~
Yes sir they do but I'm inclined to believe it would be a substantial
fee almost as close as getting what they call The American model, but
they are a good group that have a reputation for excellent PR so who
knows. Maybe they are in the holiday spirit frame of mind... Ray,
Tom Watson wrote:(snip) We have a wonderful organization called the
National Rifle Association that helps us to train our young people in
the safe and effective use of firearms.#They also lobby, very
effectively, to keep our right to
bear arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now
also a member.
~~~~~
Amen brother, and please up-date us on how it shoots but also the look
on his face when he first lays eyes on it. Now that's priceless...
Ray,
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:21:22 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>Douglas Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
>> adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
>
>> Safely shoot and handle firearms.
>> Change a tire.
>> Change a diaper.
>> Change the oil in a car.
>> Cook a meal.
>> Feed a baby.
>> Do laundry
>> Sew on a button.
>> A wide variety of simple home repairs.
>
>Robert A. Heinlein had this list:
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
> take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
> analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
> tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
> Specialization is for insects."
>
>I'm pretty sure that is from "Time Enough for Love." I've always liked
>the tag line.
>
>Bill Ranck
>Blacksburg, Va.
...well, crap, where do I find a ship to conn!? ;O)
(grew up on Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert Heinlein..."Tarzan" to
"Starship Troopers" with some "Thuvia Maid of Mars" thrown in there
somewhere...).
cg
Generally I'm pretty okay on doing firearm metal work for myself but
never had any luck with woods especially checkering. I completed a few
handgun grips that were alright for me but would never sell such a job
to any individual, besides they were inexpensive grips from a guys
catch-all box I bought at a show. The problem I see here, even for a
pro is getting your checking to match identically to the checking done
on the grip. Personally speaking that particular firearm mentioned in
the OP is an excellent piece, I've owned CZ products for years and
hold their long guns in high regard however if I wanted the forearm
checkered and planned on using a gold-ring scope (aging eyes) I would
upgrade to the American model 452. I've seen some of CZ's work and on
that Turkish walnut their checking is excellent and not to be confused
with a production run job that resembles a cheese grater.
Ray,
On 9 Dec, 00:51, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. =A0Does this
> way madness lie?
Obviously yes, for two reasons:
* You shouldn't go near a gunstock until you've run out of every
chairleg in the house. It's not rocket surgery, but nor is it tubafour
work. You need practice before even touching the real piece.
* It's not done with carving chisels, unless you're the secret heir of
Grinling Gibbons. Go to Brownells (et al) and buy a set of checkering
tools instead - they're more like tiny files than tiny chisels. Even
if you are an expert carver and will finish with chisels, you start
out with these to get your spacings right.
Other minor points:
Checkering needs good timber. You can make gunsticks in a factory out
of jummywood that just won't checker by hand. So make sure it's up to
the job first.
Practice checkering needs good timber. Only really nice carving timber
will cooperate to help you learn this: walnut, lime (linden), some
maples, European beech. Don't expect to learn anything by poking a
good tool at a bit of firewood, or even a furniture-grade piece of oak
or ash.
You're getting through a bunch of timber in practice. So start with
something big, thick and flat, and put it through the jointer after
each few attempts.
After you can do flat, try curves - but not before. Use paper patterns
and a pencil to practice your layout too. If you fancy a fun exercise,
turn a hyperbolic surface (like a power station cooling tower - make a
vase) and checker that. Then see how straight you kept those lines!
(kudos to those who know why this is relevant).
The cheap checkering tools are fine, but they're multi-cutter on an
exchangeable handle. You can forget that! Handles are cheap, get
enough to go round.
Otherwise go to it and enjoy yourself. But not on the first cut.
I recently read of an 11 year old boy who shot two home invaders that
made entry while home with his mother and grandmother. One died on the
lawn and the other the police picked up at a nearby hospital. You make
the call on that one, but my sorry goes out to the boy that was put in
that predicament by two low life's while protecting his family. He's
nothing short of a hero in my eyes but it will take him years to get
over that event... Ray,
T,
An 8 year old recently shot his father and his room mate to death here in
AZ. Please keep it locked up.
I'd hate to lose one of the guys I love to hate. ;-)
cm = gun owner
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
> tom
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Several respondents would probably enjoy this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Winchester+muerrle&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
As well as this:
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Canvas-Art-American-Arms/dp/078581891X
David Merrill
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> snip...
>
> RE engravers, I had the opportunity to meet and spend some time with
Lynton
> McKenzie when I worked in Colonial Williamsburg's Gunsmith Shop.
Absolutely
> amazing work that makes my empire dovetails look like child's play. ;~)
The
> closest I ever got to Kusmit is photos in books and magazines... more
> amazing work!
>
> John
>
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:29:11 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I picked up the CZ yesterday and there is no way that I am competent to
>> replicate the grip checkering. I thought that it would have been much
>> simpler but it is not.
>>
>> It is a beautiful and delicately proportioned piece and I'm confident
>> that the boy will be able to handle it well.
>>
>> Had I owned a similar rifle at his age I would have never let it leave
>> my sight.
>>
>> To Aardvark: I am sorry to disagree with you and I believe this to be a
>> cultural divide. Where and when I grew up it was a rite of passage for
>> a twelve year old boy to get a .22 rifle for his twelfth birthday, or
>> the Christmas preceding. My son will be twelve in February.
>>
>
> I have taught my two lads (10 and 14) marksmanship and weapon safety with
> a .22 air rifle which is always kept under lock and key. If I'm not
> there, the rifle stays locked away and I'll only let them use it under my
> supervision. I certainly wouldn't dream of allowing either of them to
> have a REAL firearm even if it were less difficult to acquire one easily.
>
Wow. Locked up air rifles; nanny state indeed
> As a lad I was fortunate enough to have always had firearms around and
> learned to respect them and fear their potential. I'm from Northern
> Ireland originally and my father was in a profession which gave him
> access to a variety of smallarms, including fully automatic weapons. The
> first handguns I ever fired on the local police range at the age of 13
> were a Colt .45 Peacemaker and a WWII Luger 9mm Parabellum. I was pretty
> pleased that I was able to hit a 'Figure 11' target at 25 metres with
> every shot I fired from both weapons- one of the other lads who was on
> the range only managed to hit the target once LOL.
>
Yet you want to deny that enjoyment to others
>> We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace to
>> be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
>> Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
>> transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership to
>> our progeny.
>>
>
> I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
> something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
> 'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
> to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
> population.
>
Umm, nope. The founders were pretty clear. They wrote WE THE PEOPLE into
the preamble, and the second amendment very clearly states "the right of
the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms", not the "right of official militias" to
keep and bear arms. 'twould be a bit ridiculous to enshrine the right of
militias to be armed, wouldn't you think? Do you really think the
government would need to guarantee the right of the government to keep and
bear arms? No matter what permutations you place on that, it just doesn't
pass the reasonableness test that the ability of militias to be armed would
have to be specifically enumerated and not when the rest of the bill of
rights are affirmation of individual rights.
>> You folks had a similar right secured as far back as 1689 but you seem
>> to have lost your way.
>>
>
> We're a bit more civilised now than we were in the days of King James.
>
You stated in a previous post that you view GB as being more mature.
There's a big difference between maturity and senility.
>> We have a wonderful
>
> Hmmmm.
>
>> organization called the National Rifle Association
>> that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use of
>> firearms.
>
> Who took over when Chuck 'From my cold dead hand' Heston died?
>
>> They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to bear
>> arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
>>
>
> I would say 'vociferously misinterpret the Second Amendment', but who
> says my opinion should amount to more than a pile of sheep shit?
>
Indeed. The misinterpretation is on the part of those who believe that
the government somehow had to guarantee the right of government entities to
be armed. The prolific writings of the founders leave no doubt as to the
intent of the second amendment. Even the intellectually honest anti-gun
people will say that and recognize that an amendment to repeal the right
would be the only correct means of changing that element of our bill of
rights.
> It's difficult to think of any legitimate reason for anyone to keep a
> firearm in their home. You may say that it's to protect your home against
> intruders. I would say that if you were to shoot an intruder the fact
> that you had a firearm in your home at all implies premeditation on your
> part and therefore you should be prosecuted by the law in much the same
> way as if you had walked into the street with a firearm and shot the
> first person you came across.
Well, you certainly fit the model that your overlords want you to fit.
So, let's make this personal, if some thug breaks into *your* house, what
are you going to do? If, fearing for your life, you hit him with a
baseball bat, golf club, or lamp, would that fall under your idea of
pre-meditating harm to your assailant? I'm sure your argument will be that
those items are not weapons. So, let's say you use something more
effective like a knife, then does pre-meditation on your part then fall
into the equation? Especially since your reading this comment will make
you think about the possibility of such and event, you will thus have
thought through possible articles in your home with which you could defend
yourself.
Your previous paragraph has this whole aura of unbelievability about it.
Surely nobody can value the lives of themselves or their family so little
that they would rather be the victim of an intruder rather than defend
themselves. If they would defend themselves, then why not be able to do so
with the most effective tool available to them.
>
>> I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now also
>> a member.
>>
>
> NASCAR fans too?
>
>
> Much as I've enjoyed this little debate, I know that this is the wrong
> place for this kind of discussion and so I'll leave it here. Thanks to
> all who openly disagreed with me and those who said nothing but tacitly
> agreed with me.
>
> To Tom Watson- I do hope that you come to a satisfactory solution to your
> checkering conundrum. I have a set of good carving chisels but I
> certainly wouldn't take lightly the proposition of using them for the
> task you describe. Hope it works out for you.
>
>
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Leon wrote:
>
> "Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>> for Christmas.
>>
>> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
>> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
>
> At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?
According to their nanny government: never.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Aardvark wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:45:55 -0600, Leon wrote:
>
>> "Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>>> for Christmas.
>>>
>>> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys
>>> to your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at
>>> it.
>>
>> At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?
>
> Generally when old enough to join the armed forces, but even then you're
> not allowed to bring any weapons home with you. :-)
>
> In the case of ownership of air weapons the minimum age is 17 but when
> and where they can be used is subject to restrictions.
>
> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
> individuals, the UK is
subjugated
> enough to realise that this is a bad
> idea.
Fixed that for ya. Especially since you have no way of justifying that
you have a peaceful society. You have a society in which the thugs run
free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves. No
thanks.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Charlie Self wrote:
> On Dec 11, 12:30Â pm, Aardvark <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>> > I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> >http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3Â for my eleven year old
>> > for Christmas.
>>
... snip
> Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
> than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
> everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
> without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
> And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
> we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
> stats drop a bit.
I kind of wonder if that would even help. You would just have older
inexperienced drivers making those mistakes. On the plus side, maybe some
of that young and immortal attitude would have worn off some (but I'm
thinking that doesn't really take hold until the late to mid-30's). On the
negative side, those older inexperienced drivers will have lost some of the
quick reaction times possessed during youth. My guess is that very little
gain would be obtained.
... and I'm pretty sure that parents aren't going to want to be carting
their 24 year-old kid to the kid's job. :-)
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
>> individuals, the UK is
>
'grown up' and civilised
>
>> enough to realise that this is a bad
>> idea.
>
> Fixed that for ya.
Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.
> Especially since you have no way of justifying
> that
> you have a peaceful society.
Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?
> You have a society in which the thugs run
> free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.
Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
Facts & figures
* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
2006/07 compared to the previous year.
* Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
* The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
* There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
crimes in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
15% in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
2006/07 over 2005/06.
(taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/
gun-crime/>)
I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
<http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm>
I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.
> No
> thanks.
What did I offer you?
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
> tom
Nice looking gun Tom. Although the stock looks like walnut, did you notice
that the stock is Beachwood? You will likely have to also match the stain,
something to consider.
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Aardvark wrote:
>
>> I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
>> something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
>> 'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
>> to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
>> population.
>
> I think it is you doing the "misinterpreting". George Mason was one of
> our founding fathers and played a large part in writing our "Bill of
> Rights", our first ten amendments to our Constitution. In fact, he is
> known as the "Father of the Bill of Rights".
>
> George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426
>
> "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few
> public officials."
Least we forget the US Supreme Court's ruling in Heller v District of
Columbia, decided June 26, 2008, which upheld the "standard interpretation"
of the Second Amendment as held by myriad Constitutional Scholars for many
years. In part:
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm
unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally
lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
(a) The Amendmentâs prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit
or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative
clauseâs text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right
to keep and bear arms.
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
Seems there is a difference between the Citizens and Subjects involved in
this discussion. ;~)
John
...whom in a former life worked as an 18th century gunsmith, and in another
was involved in the gun regulation academic debate circles. ;~)
"Larry" wrote
> No room for you to talk. What do your children eat with?
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/11490053@N08/3084176591/sizes/l/
> That's about as sad a state of affairs as it gets...
From 40 year of observation, whatever you see in Britain now, you will see
here in five to ten years ... get ready for it.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:29:11 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
> I picked up the CZ yesterday and there is no way that I am competent to
> replicate the grip checkering. I thought that it would have been much
> simpler but it is not.
>
> It is a beautiful and delicately proportioned piece and I'm confident
> that the boy will be able to handle it well.
>
> Had I owned a similar rifle at his age I would have never let it leave
> my sight.
>
> To Aardvark: I am sorry to disagree with you and I believe this to be a
> cultural divide. Where and when I grew up it was a rite of passage for
> a twelve year old boy to get a .22 rifle for his twelfth birthday, or
> the Christmas preceding. My son will be twelve in February.
>
I have taught my two lads (10 and 14) marksmanship and weapon safety with
a .22 air rifle which is always kept under lock and key. If I'm not
there, the rifle stays locked away and I'll only let them use it under my
supervision. I certainly wouldn't dream of allowing either of them to
have a REAL firearm even if it were less difficult to acquire one easily.
As a lad I was fortunate enough to have always had firearms around and
learned to respect them and fear their potential. I'm from Northern
Ireland originally and my father was in a profession which gave him
access to a variety of smallarms, including fully automatic weapons. The
first handguns I ever fired on the local police range at the age of 13
were a Colt .45 Peacemaker and a WWII Luger 9mm Parabellum. I was pretty
pleased that I was able to hit a 'Figure 11' target at 25 metres with
every shot I fired from both weapons- one of the other lads who was on
the range only managed to hit the target once LOL.
> We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace to
> be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
> Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
> transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership to
> our progeny.
>
I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
population.
> You folks had a similar right secured as far back as 1689 but you seem
> to have lost your way.
>
We're a bit more civilised now than we were in the days of King James.
> We have a wonderful
Hmmmm.
> organization called the National Rifle Association
> that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use of
> firearms.
Who took over when Chuck 'From my cold dead hand' Heston died?
> They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to bear
> arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
>
I would say 'vociferously misinterpret the Second Amendment', but who
says my opinion should amount to more than a pile of sheep shit?
It's difficult to think of any legitimate reason for anyone to keep a
firearm in their home. You may say that it's to protect your home against
intruders. I would say that if you were to shoot an intruder the fact
that you had a firearm in your home at all implies premeditation on your
part and therefore you should be prosecuted by the law in much the same
way as if you had walked into the street with a firearm and shot the
first person you came across.
> I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now also
> a member.
>
NASCAR fans too?
Much as I've enjoyed this little debate, I know that this is the wrong
place for this kind of discussion and so I'll leave it here. Thanks to
all who openly disagreed with me and those who said nothing but tacitly
agreed with me.
To Tom Watson- I do hope that you come to a satisfactory solution to your
checkering conundrum. I have a set of good carving chisels but I
certainly wouldn't take lightly the proposition of using them for the
task you describe. Hope it works out for you.
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>>> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
>>> individuals, the UK is
>>
>
> 'grown up' and civilised
Mine was closer to the truth. Subjugated applies when:
a) Someone who defends himself and his family in his home is sent to jail
while the thugs go free -- see previous postings in thread for backup
b) It is illegal to sell table saws that are dado-set capable
c) Somebody has to throw away perfectly good produce because it is too small
according to EU rules. He can't even give them away, they must be
destroyed.
d) Selling produce by English units is punishable by fine
e) Numerous other examples of PC run amok regarding interaction with
your "immigrant" population
>
>>
>>> enough to realise that this is a bad
>>> idea.
>>
>> Fixed that for ya.
>
> Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.
>
>> Especially since you have no way of justifying
>> that
>> you have a peaceful society.
>
> Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?
>
>> You have a society in which the thugs run
>> free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.
>
> Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
>
> Facts & figures
>
> * The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
> 2006/07 compared to the previous year.
> * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
> compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
> * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
> * There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
> crimes in 2006/07.
> * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
> 15% in 2006/07.
> * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
> 2006/07 over 2005/06.
>
> (taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/
> gun-crime/>)
>
> I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
>
> <http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm>
>
Nice statistics, but they don't tell the whole story. Overall, what is
your crime rate compared to years past? Things like assaults, home
invasions, burglaries, homicides (with all weapons)? What is the rate of
arrests and convictions? While gun crimes may be down slightly, reading
various reports indicates that overall crime is up, arrests are down, even
those arrested aren't convicted, those convicted serve very short sentences
(would be a hardship on the perps after all), and law abiding citizens have
few rights to protect themselves.
Various folks who have analyzed your crime rates indicate they weren't all
that high to begin with and it is a stretch to think that your gun laws
have really done anything to reduce that.
> I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
> doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.
>
>> No
>> thanks.
>
> What did I offer you?
>
>
>
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:
>
>> Aardvark wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
>>>>> individuals, the UK is
>>> 'grown up' and civilised
>>>
>>>>> enough to realise that this is a bad
>>>>> idea.
>>>> Fixed that for ya.
>>> Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.
>>>
>>>> Especially since you have no way of justifying
>>>> that
>>>> you have a peaceful society.
>>> Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first
>>> place?
>>>
>>>> You have a society in which the thugs run free and the law abiding
>>>> citizens are afraid to defend themselves.
>>> Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
>>>
>>> Facts & figures
>>>
>>> * The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
>>> 2006/07 compared to the previous year.
>>> * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in
>>> 2006/07,
>>> compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
>>> * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3% *
>>> There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
>>> crimes in 2006/07.
>>> * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
>>> 15% in 2006/07.
>>> * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15%
>>> in
>>> 2006/07 over 2005/06.
>>>
>>> (taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/
>>> gun-crime/>)
>>>
>>> I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
>>>
>>> <http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm>
>>>
>>> I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
>>> doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.
>>>
>>>> No
>>>> thanks.
>>> What did I offer you?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> None of these statistics should be possible in a society that prohibits
>> the private citizen owning firearms.
>
> Of course not, but there will always be a (hopefully decreasing according
> to Home Office figures) number of illegally held firearms. And there will
> always be the occasional crime committed using a legally held one.
>
> The owning of firearms is certainly NOT prohibited in the UK, it's just
> difficult to do, I'm glad to say.
>
>> If no one has buns then no one can
>> kill someone with one....
>
> I'll assume you don't mean confectionery :-)
>
>> Therefore the number of incidents with
>> firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.
>>
>
> The figures from the Home office show an annual reduction in firearm
> crime over the last few years.
>
>> A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
>> and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
>> incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
>> with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
>> the conclusions.
>>
>
> Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically
> curtailed. The sooner the better.
>
>> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
I once read an article in the Readers Digest about a gentleman in
England who, one day, was visiting a gun show. Low and behold he
recognized his old Lee-Enfield MK4. This was the weapon he defended
England and fought NAZI Germany with. He immediately purchased the
weapon and properly registered it with the local officials. Some years
later, as the gentleman grew older, the local police chief decided that
this gallant former soldier was no longer capable of owning the weapon
he used during WWII. The point here is that the local copper had
absolutely no evidence to backup his decision but the old soldier had to
either turn in his weapon or have the local smitty weld the barrel
closed so that it could no longer be used. This is what we in the States
refused to permit. If the old gentleman could be trusted with the safety
of your country why should he no longer be trusted with the weapon he
used in it's defence.
Dave
Aardvark <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my
>> eleven year old for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give
> him the keys to your car and tell him to go for a drive
> through town while you're at it.
>
No room for you to talk. What do your children eat with?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11490053@N08/3084176591/sizes/l/
That's about as sad a state of affairs as it gets...
Regards,
Larry
T,
I grew up in Michigan and we had 22's and pellet guns from the time we were
12. We could walk to the woods and do our shooting/hunting. There were also
several places we could walk or bike to fish. What a great place to grow up.
I called one of my childhood friends today to chat about the old days. Never
worried about locking the guns up back then, no stranger danger either. Hell
I was so brave I drank water right from the garden hose!!!! Your son is a
lucky kid. Enjoy your kids as the time zips by.
Be safe,
cm
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
> tom
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Aardvark wrote:
> I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
> something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
> 'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
> to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
> population.
I think it is you doing the "misinterpreting". George Mason was one of
our founding fathers and played a large part in writing our "Bill of
Rights", our first ten amendments to our Constitution. In fact, he is
known as the "Father of the Bill of Rights".
George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few
public officials."
Tom Watson wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for their responses..
>
> I'm going to go with the idea of seeing how the boy shoots with it and
> then think about monkeying with the gingerbread.
>
>
>
> tom
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>>
>> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>>
>> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>>
>> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>> way madness lie?
>>
>> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>> what do I know?
>>
>> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>>
>>
>> tom
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Tom ,
Looking at the picture of that firearm ,it has the traditional European
Schnabel fore end/arm .I'm pretty certain that checkering was not done
on this type of fore end/arm.
Nice rifle BTW ,I have a Brno Model 2 ,which IIRC is the previous name
or owner of CZ .
I've had it for many years and is a great little rifle and very accurate
with the right ammunition fed to it.
Your son is a very lucky fellow, that his Dad would buy him such a rifle
, that he lives in a country where firearm owner ship is viewed as not
politically correct.
--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."
[email protected]
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:38:44 -0700, Mark & Juanita
> <
>>
>> OK, where is the real Tom Watson and what have you done with him? I
>>actually agree with what you have written.
>
>
> Yes - I voted for Obama. I also voted for Nixon and Regan.
>
> Go figure.
>
>
>
>
> tom
>
Whew! What a relief. For a day or two I thought you had got religion
or something.
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
A man with one watch knows what time
it is--with two watches he is never sure.
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:29:11 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I picked up the CZ yesterday and there is no way that I am competent to
>> replicate the grip checkering. I thought that it would have been much
>> simpler but it is not.
>>
>> It is a beautiful and delicately proportioned piece and I'm confident
>> that the boy will be able to handle it well.
>>
>> Had I owned a similar rifle at his age I would have never let it leave
>> my sight.
>>
>> To Aardvark: I am sorry to disagree with you and I believe this to be a
>> cultural divide. Where and when I grew up it was a rite of passage for
>> a twelve year old boy to get a .22 rifle for his twelfth birthday, or
>> the Christmas preceding. My son will be twelve in February.
>>
>
> I have taught my two lads (10 and 14) marksmanship and weapon safety with
> a .22 air rifle which is always kept under lock and key. If I'm not
> there, the rifle stays locked away and I'll only let them use it under my
> supervision. I certainly wouldn't dream of allowing either of them to
> have a REAL firearm even if it were less difficult to acquire one easily.
>
> As a lad I was fortunate enough to have always had firearms around and
> learned to respect them and fear their potential. I'm from Northern
> Ireland originally and my father was in a profession which gave him
> access to a variety of smallarms, including fully automatic weapons. The
> first handguns I ever fired on the local police range at the age of 13
> were a Colt .45 Peacemaker and a WWII Luger 9mm Parabellum. I was pretty
> pleased that I was able to hit a 'Figure 11' target at 25 metres with
> every shot I fired from both weapons- one of the other lads who was on
> the range only managed to hit the target once LOL.
>
>> We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace to
>> be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
>> Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
>> transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership to
>> our progeny.
>>
>
> I think that many Americans misinterpret your Second Amendment to mean
> something it wasn't intended to mean. Perhaps members of official
> 'militias' are allowed to keep and bear arms, but it's a bit of a stretch
> to insist that this right should extend to every member of the
> population.
>
That is no misinterpretation of the Constitution as Amended. If you read
the body of the Constitution you will find the OFFICIAL Militias
defined, their duties defined and the capability of the Federal
Government to nationalize them. There is also a prohibition of lodging
Federal troops in private housing.
The Second Amendment to the US Constitution means that the ordinary
citizens of the United States are ABSOLUTELY permitted possession of
fire arms. No government entity may prohibit that right.
>> You folks had a similar right secured as far back as 1689 but you seem
>> to have lost your way.
>>
>
> We're a bit more civilised now than we were in the days of King James.
>
>> We have a wonderful
>
> Hmmmm.
>
>> organization called the National Rifle Association
>> that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use of
>> firearms.
>
> Who took over when Chuck 'From my cold dead hand' Heston died?
>
>> They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to bear
>> arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
>>
>
> I would say 'vociferously misinterpret the Second Amendment', but who
> says my opinion should amount to more than a pile of sheep shit?
>
> It's difficult to think of any legitimate reason for anyone to keep a
> firearm in their home. You may say that it's to protect your home against
> intruders. I would say that if you were to shoot an intruder the fact
> that you had a firearm in your home at all implies premeditation on your
> part and therefore you should be prosecuted by the law in much the same
> way as if you had walked into the street with a firearm and shot the
> first person you came across.
>
>> I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now also
>> a member.
>>
>
> NASCAR fans too?
>
>
> Much as I've enjoyed this little debate, I know that this is the wrong
> place for this kind of discussion and so I'll leave it here. Thanks to
> all who openly disagreed with me and those who said nothing but tacitly
> agreed with me.
>
> To Tom Watson- I do hope that you come to a satisfactory solution to your
> checkering conundrum. I have a set of good carving chisels but I
> certainly wouldn't take lightly the proposition of using them for the
> task you describe. Hope it works out for you.
>
>
> I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every
> competent
> adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
>
> Safely shoot and handle firearms.
> Change a tire.
> Change a diaper.
> Change the oil in a car.
> Cook a meal.
> Feed a baby.
> Do laundry
> Sew on a button.
> A wide variety of simple home repairs.
>
> Others?
>
> -- Doug
Sexually please their partner?
cm
Thanks to everyone for their responses..
I'm going to go with the idea of seeing how the boy shoots with it and
then think about monkeying with the gingerbread.
tom
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>for Christmas.
>
>The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
>Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
>I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>way madness lie?
>
>I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>what do I know?
>
>Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
>tom
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Watson
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
I picked up the CZ yesterday and there is no way that I am competent
to replicate the grip checkering. I thought that it would have been
much simpler but it is not.
It is a beautiful and delicately proprtioned piece and I'm confident
that the boy will be able to handle it well.
Had I owned a similar rifle at his age I would have never let it leave
my sight.
To Aardvark: I am sorry to disagree with you and I believe this to be
a cultural divide. Where and when I grew up it was a rite of passage
for a twelve year old boy to get a .22 rifle for his twelfth birthday,
or the Christmas preceding. My son will be twelve in February.
We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace
to be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership
to our progeny.
You folks had a similar right secured as far back as 1689 but you seem
to have lost your way.
We have a wonderful organization called the National Rifle Association
that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use
of firearms. They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to
bear arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now
also a member.
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>for Christmas.
>
>The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
>Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
>I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>way madness lie?
>
>I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>what do I know?
>
>Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
>tom
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Watson
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
In reference to David Merrill response:
~~~~~
That was an extremely enjoyable post and throughout the firearm
community the name, Nick Kusmit is considered the master of engraving
and his brother John was also top quality. You don't have to like
firearms to be bewildered by the work some of these masters have done
on metal. I can stand and look at them for hours, not mere firearms
but beautiful works of art and Mr. Kusmit was one of the best. I can
only imagine actually meeting him. Well maybe in another world. Thanks
for sharing you experience, Those type of stories from people like you
I can hear for days. It was well appreciated... Ray,
Douglas Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
> adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
> Safely shoot and handle firearms.
> Change a tire.
> Change a diaper.
> Change the oil in a car.
> Cook a meal.
> Feed a baby.
> Do laundry
> Sew on a button.
> A wide variety of simple home repairs.
Robert A. Heinlein had this list:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."
I'm pretty sure that is from "Time Enough for Love." I've always liked
the tag line.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
Read a tape rule.
Basilisk
"Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Aardvark <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>> for Christmas.
>>
>>Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
>>your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
>
> I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every
> competent
> adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
>
> Safely shoot and handle firearms.
> Change a tire.
> Change a diaper.
> Change the oil in a car.
> Cook a meal.
> Feed a baby.
> Do laundry
> Sew on a button.
> A wide variety of simple home repairs.
>
> Others?
>
> -- Doug
"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Read a tape rule.
I still screw that one up from time to time.
-- Doug
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:41:53 -0600, Douglas Johnson wrote:
> "basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Read a tape rule.
>
> I still screw that one up from time to time. -- Doug
Don't we all? :-)
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:
>
... snip
>
>>
>> A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
>> and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
>> incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
>> with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
>> the conclusions.
>>
>
> Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically
> curtailed. The sooner the better.
>
Huh? I guess by having all the potential victims unarmed, it will reduce
the probability of a visitor being the victim of a crime.
Your conclusion betrays an unmoveable mindset. Despite evidence showing
that an armed citizenry has actually reduced crime, and that an unarmed
subgroup (i.e. visitors) were more likely to be victims because the
criminals (you know, those people who break the law and therefore don't
care if firearms were illegal) know they have a target group that can't
defend themselves -- your conclusion is to disarm the group that can defend
itself. Nice.
>> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Yes, we shot it on Sunday.
Reds shot inch and a half groups with it at fifty feet, with a few
fliers.
I shot five rounds on the center bull and a dime would easily cover
it, so it shoots sweet.
We are shooting at a pistol range, rather than from a bench, so I have
to kneel to shoot and Reds has to spread is legs way too wide to have
a comfortable position.
That being said, the shooting is fun.
I want to get this little thing into a vise and see what MOA is about.
tom
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:56:03 -0700, "cm" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom,
>
>Have you shot it yet????
>
>cm
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>>
>> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>>
>> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>>
>> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>> way madness lie?
>>
>> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>> what do I know?
>>
>> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>>
>>
>> tom
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>>
>> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>>
>> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>>
>> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>> way madness lie?
>>
>> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>> what do I know?
>>
>> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
> Generally a checkering cutter, held in a checkering tool handle is used
> for this work. Various cutters are made for different lines per inch and
> coarseness and for cutting single or multiple rows at one time. I
> suggest matching the lines per inch and general checkering style on the
> grip least you end up with something less attractive than you started
> with... The tools are cheap, it's the skill that's expensive. ;~)
>
> http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=26279&title=S-1%20CHECKERING%20TOOL
>
> http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5694&title=NO.%201%20SINGLE%20LINE%20REPLACEMENT%20CUTTER
>
> http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/catsearch.aspx?k=checkering%20cutter&ps=10&si=True
>
>
> They've got a basic book too...
> http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5709&title=FUNDAMENTALS%20OF%20GUNSTOCK%20CHECKERING
>
>
> John
Practice on scrap first, second and third. Then take a deep breath and
repeat until confident in what you are doing.
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
Generally a checkering cutter, held in a checkering tool handle is used for
this work. Various cutters are made for different lines per inch and
coarseness and for cutting single or multiple rows at one time. I suggest
matching the lines per inch and general checkering style on the grip least
you end up with something less attractive than you started with... The tools
are cheap, it's the skill that's expensive. ;~)
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=26279&title=S-1%20CHECKERING%20TOOL
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5694&title=NO.%201%20SINGLE%20LINE%20REPLACEMENT%20CUTTER
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/catsearch.aspx?k=checkering%20cutter&ps=10&si=True
They've got a basic book too...
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5709&title=FUNDAMENTALS%20OF%20GUNSTOCK%20CHECKERING
John
"Lee Michaels" wrote:
> There was a time whenit was considered a rite of passage that all 12
> year old boys got a single shot .22 to learn basic firearm safety
> and skills.
There was also a time when learning to handle a team of horses behind
a plow was a necessary skill, but times have changed.
Today, interpersonal skills are at a premium.
I still have that single shot .22 my dad used to hunt squirrels. (He
could "bark" a squirrel until he started wearing glasses.)
I shot my first rabbit with it, but that was over 60 years ago.
This summer went back to see where I grew up.
The pasture out my back door where I learned to hunt is now a housing
development.
Back then, there were 250 million people in the US, today it is 300+
million and growing.
It's nice to dream about the good old days, but as my mother used to
say, "times change, and we must change with them."
My children and grand children have absolutely no interest in learning
to use firearms, but then they have acquired skills that do not
interest me.
That's life.
Lew
Aardvark <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>
>Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
>your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
Safely shoot and handle firearms.
Change a tire.
Change a diaper.
Change the oil in a car.
Cook a meal.
Feed a baby.
Do laundry
Sew on a button.
A wide variety of simple home repairs.
Others?
-- Doug
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:45:55 -0600, Leon wrote:
> "Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>> for Christmas.
>>
>> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys
>> to your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at
>> it.
>
> At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?
Generally when old enough to join the armed forces, but even then you're
not allowed to bring any weapons home with you. :-)
In the case of ownership of air weapons the minimum age is 17 but when
and where they can be used is subject to restrictions.
Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is 'grown up' enough to realise that this is a bad
idea. A private individual may apply for a firearms certificate at the
age of 18, but has to jump through quite a number of legal and
psychological hoops successfully before it may be issued. If it IS
issued. You have to have an extremely good verifiable reason to keep a
firearm at home.
Nevertheless I have been a big firearm fan all my life.
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
Aardvark wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>>> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
>>> individuals, the UK is
>
> 'grown up' and civilised
>
>>> enough to realise that this is a bad
>>> idea.
>> Fixed that for ya.
>
> Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.
>
>> Especially since you have no way of justifying
>> that
>> you have a peaceful society.
>
> Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?
>
>> You have a society in which the thugs run
>> free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.
>
> Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
>
> Facts & figures
>
> * The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
> 2006/07 compared to the previous year.
> * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
> compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
> * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
> * There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
> crimes in 2006/07.
> * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
> 15% in 2006/07.
> * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
> 2006/07 over 2005/06.
>
> (taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/
> gun-crime/>)
>
> I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
>
> <http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm>
>
> I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
> doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.
>
>> No
>> thanks.
>
> What did I offer you?
>
>
>
None of these statistics should be possible in a society that prohibits
the private citizen owning firearms. If no one has buns then no one can
kill someone with one.... Therefore the number of incidents with
firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.
A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
the conclusions.
Dave
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:38:44 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
<snip>
>> We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace
>> to be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
>> Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
>> transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership
>> to our progeny.
>>
>
> OK, where is the real Tom Watson and what have you done with him? I
>actually agree with what you have written.
And so, Grasshopper, you begin to see that there is more complexity to
our engagement than the mere hurling of insults such as, "Liberal",
or, "Democrat"?
>
<snip>
>
>> We have a wonderful organization called the National Rifle Association
>> that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use
>> of firearms. They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to
>> bear arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
>>
>> I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now
>> also a member.
>>
>
> A surprise -- quite a happy surprise, but one none the less.
I joined the NRA in 1960. I have occasionaly sent them checks in
excess of my membership dues.
Yes - I voted for Obama. I also voted for Nixon and Regan.
Go figure.
tom
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>>http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>>for Christmas.
>>>
>>>The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>>>funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>>>
>>>Well, you know, that just won't do.
>>>
>>>I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>>>carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>>>way madness lie?
>>>
>>>I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>>>what do I know?
>>>
>>>Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>>>
>>>
>>>tom
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Tom Watson
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Tom Watson wrote:
> I picked up the CZ yesterday and there is no way that I am competent
> to replicate the grip checkering. I thought that it would have been
> much simpler but it is not.
>
> It is a beautiful and delicately proprtioned piece and I'm confident
> that the boy will be able to handle it well.
>
Took a look at their website after seeing this thread. Looks like they
make some very nice pieces.
> Had I owned a similar rifle at his age I would have never let it leave
> my sight.
>
Check (so to speak) your area for a good gunsmith; they may be able to
point you to someone who can do what you want with the results that such a
firearm deserves.
> To Aardvark: I am sorry to disagree with you and I believe this to be
> a cultural divide. Where and when I grew up it was a rite of passage
> for a twelve year old boy to get a .22 rifle for his twelfth birthday,
> or the Christmas preceding. My son will be twelve in February.
>
Well, times have changed some, just heard that my 12 year old niece asked
for, and got, a 22 for her birthday several weeks ago. Probably driven
somewhat by being with our son while shooting 22's this summer at the
annual family get-together on Grand-dad's farm.
> We here in the United States of America consider the entire populace
> to be the "...well regulated militia..." that is described in our
> Constitution. As such, it is not merely our right but our duty to
> transmit the knowledge and wisdom that goes along with gun ownership
> to our progeny.
>
OK, where is the real Tom Watson and what have you done with him? I
actually agree with what you have written.
> You folks had a similar right secured as far back as 1689 but you seem
> to have lost your way.
>
Darned shame really.
> We have a wonderful organization called the National Rifle Association
> that helps us to train our young people in the safe and effective use
> of firearms. They also lobby, very effectively, to keep our right to
> bear arms as it was intended by the Founders of our country.
>
> I am happy to be a member and I am happy to say that my son is now
> also a member.
>
A surprise -- quite a happy surprise, but one none the less.
>
>
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>>http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>>for Christmas.
>>
>>The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
>>funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>>
>>Well, you know, that just won't do.
>>
>>I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
>>carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
>>way madness lie?
>>
>>I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
>>what do I know?
>>
>>Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>>
>>
>>tom
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Tom Watson
>>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 04:55:16 -0800 (PST), "R.M.R"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Generally I'm pretty okay on doing firearm metal work for myself but
>never had any luck with woods especially checkering. I completed a few
>handgun grips that were alright for me but would never sell such a job
>to any individual, besides they were inexpensive grips from a guys
>catch-all box I bought at a show. The problem I see here, even for a
>pro is getting your checking to match identically to the checking done
>on the grip. Personally speaking that particular firearm mentioned in
>the OP is an excellent piece, I've owned CZ products for years and
>hold their long guns in high regard however if I wanted the forearm
>checkered and planned on using a gold-ring scope (aging eyes) I would
>upgrade to the American model 452. I've seen some of CZ's work and on
>that Turkish walnut their checking is excellent and not to be confused
>with a production run job that resembles a cheese grater.
>
>
>
>Ray,
A general query here: does the company make *any* models with a
checkered forearm? If so, would it be kosher to call the company and,
well you know, see if you can get *them* to do it? Heh...
cg
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
Tom,
Have you shot it yet????
cm
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
> tom
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Just about the age when I was allowed to buy my first .22 rifle, a Mossberg
bolt action. I eventually refinished the stock with a hand rubbed oil
finish that came out beautifully; didn't attempt checkering, though bought a
checkering tool and was working up the nerve to attempt it. Ended up
employed as a research engineer for Winchester for 26 years starting in 1964
(the year of the production press checkering). During my initial
orientation I got to spend a day with Nick Kusmit one of the last of the
Winchester Custom Shop engravers (and an exceptional person). During the
late 1960's, early 1970's one of my co-workers collaborated on the
development of a production cut checkering process sufficiently economical
to finally eliminate the press checkering, to the considerable relief to all
who appreciated fine firearms.
John G has given you the keys to the mechanics of the process. It's not
magic. My advice is that checkering should be approached with love and
patience (and a well planned and tasteful paper pattern). I'd suggest first
presenting your fine gift to your son as its makers crafted it. After a
period of ownership that concentrates on the appreciation of fine wood/metal
craftsmanship, safe gun handling and the pure joy of sport shooting, then
see if the boy feels any desire to checker or otherwise customize it. Be
guided by his desires.
A little light reading:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gun+checkering&aq=f&oq=
David Merrill
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
> for Christmas.
>
> The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
> funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.
>
> Well, you know, that just won't do.
>
> I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
> carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
> way madness lie?
>
> I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
> what do I know?
>
> Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?
>
>
> tom
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:30:02 GMT, Aardvark cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
What is wrong with that? For many people, especially those of the boomer
generation, getting a first gun at this age was commonplace. It went hand
in hand with gun and safety training and respect. It developed responsible
shooters.
On the other hand, you have today's version of it - ignore teaching
responsibility, pretend that if you make guns go away, you'll make problems
go away, lock everything up instead of investing time in your kids. Yup -
that sure works.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:
> Aardvark wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>>
>>>> Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
>>>> individuals, the UK is
>>
>> 'grown up' and civilised
>>
>>>> enough to realise that this is a bad
>>>> idea.
>>> Fixed that for ya.
>>
>> Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.
>>
>>> Especially since you have no way of justifying
>>> that
>>> you have a peaceful society.
>>
>> Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first
>> place?
>>
>>> You have a society in which the thugs run free and the law abiding
>>> citizens are afraid to defend themselves.
>>
>> Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
>>
>> Facts & figures
>>
>> * The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
>> 2006/07 compared to the previous year.
>> * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in
>> 2006/07,
>> compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
>> * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3% *
>> There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
>> crimes in 2006/07.
>> * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
>> 15% in 2006/07.
>> * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15%
>> in
>> 2006/07 over 2005/06.
>>
>> (taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/
>> gun-crime/>)
>>
>> I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
>>
>> <http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm>
>>
>> I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
>> doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.
>>
>>> No
>>> thanks.
>>
>> What did I offer you?
>>
>>
>>
> None of these statistics should be possible in a society that prohibits
> the private citizen owning firearms.
Of course not, but there will always be a (hopefully decreasing according
to Home Office figures) number of illegally held firearms. And there will
always be the occasional crime committed using a legally held one.
The owning of firearms is certainly NOT prohibited in the UK, it's just
difficult to do, I'm glad to say.
> If no one has buns then no one can
> kill someone with one....
I'll assume you don't mean confectionery :-)
> Therefore the number of incidents with
> firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.
>
The figures from the Home office show an annual reduction in firearm
crime over the last few years.
>
> A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
> and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
> incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
> with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
> the conclusions.
>
Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically
curtailed. The sooner the better.
> Dave
--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com
"Aardvark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
>> http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
>> for Christmas.
>
> Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
> your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.
At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?