This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
room was a sheet of plywood.
I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
plywood that was crooked, too.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/7/2016 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 15:19:39 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2016 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>>>> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>>
>>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>>>> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>>>> room was a sheet of plywood.
>>>> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>>>> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>>>> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>>>> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>>>> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>>>> plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>>>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>> Chinese plywood?
>>> The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>>
>>
>>
>> And oddly very often better quality than domestic costing 30% more.
> No, the cheapest you can buy is very seldom better than higher priced
> domestic. There is good imported stuff that is cheaper than domestic -
> and possibly better - but that's not "the cheapest you can buy"
>
Yes, "the cheapest that I can buy at my supplier" is very often better
than domestic.
On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>
>What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>room was a sheet of plywood.
>I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>
>I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>plywood that was crooked, too.
>
>Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
Chinese plywood?
The cheapest crap you could buy?
On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:50:50 AM UTC-5, krw wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:22:07 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >On 11/10/2016 2:36 PM, krw wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
> >>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
> >>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat hous=
es I
> >>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was i=
n the
> >>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I =
asked
> >>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
> >>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you =
that
> >>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, an=
d
> >>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses =
it on
> >>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap=
.
> >>>
> >>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
> >>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. M=
y
> >>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
> >>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
> >>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
> >>
> >> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
> >> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
> >> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
> >> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
> >
> >Bullshit!
>=20
> Ah, so you were there. Why the *F_CK* didn't you help!
>=20
> >>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
> >>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
> >>>
> >>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
> >>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
> >>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
> >>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
> >>
> >> 1- It's a frappin' shed.
> >
> >Yeahbutt I never told the OSB what it was being used on.
>=20
> Size matters.
>=20
> >> 2- Anecdote <> evidence.
> >
> >Experience =3D evidence. Common usage =3D evidence. You =3D bullshit!
>=20
> You can keep repeating bullshit but that doesn't make it smell any
> better.
> >
> >>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing=
.
> >>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
> >>> shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was =
in
> >>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
> >
> >> OSB isn't.
> >
> >it is!
>=20
> You can continue to say that but you can also continue to be *wrong*.
> there is a reason it's not allowed as corner sheathing in many areas.
> Plywood or diagonal bracing is required.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but this (admittedly 10 year old) article
makes no distinction between plywood and OSB when discussing Wall Bracing=
=20
and the IRC.
http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/wall-bracing-and-the-irc_o
This one discusses using OSB to corner brace a foam sheathed wall:
"It=E2=80=99s possible to brace a wall with just a few sheets of plywood or=
OSB.=20
A small house may require only two sheets of OSB per wall, usually located=
=20
at the corners."
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2011/05/19/4-options-for-shear-bracing-foam=
-sheathed-walls
Habitat For Humanity in Denver is fine with OSB for sheathing, but not for
barricades across openings.
https://www.habitatmetrodenver.org/media/filer_public/72/83/7283a729-922d-4=
fec-941c-dd3ad4a4d997/301c_-_framing_exterior_walls.pdf
I'm sure some local codes are stricter, and there may even an updated IRC
since 2006, but it seems (at least to me) that OSB is an acceptable produc=
t
for bracing.
As always, I'm willing to be proven wrong as I learn. ;-)
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:35:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/6/16 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>
>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when the
>>> squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet of
>>> plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least
>>> half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75
>>> Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it
>>> down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>
>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess
>>> I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've
>>> gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>
>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>
>
>No idea the country of origin.
>The cheapest I could buy? Yes, in my area.
>It's BCX, and I'm building industrial storage bins, so I don't expect
>nor even want perfection. What I *do* reasonably expect is for basic,
>minimum quality standards for plywood to be met.
>
>Among the minimum quality standards are 1. straight & square, and 2. the
>plies of the "ply"wood to actually be glued together. Without the
>latter, I submit that it's not even plywood, but simply a quantity of
>stacked veneers.
I wouldn't think it would pass the spec for structural plywood, which
is what CDX is. It's probably on the roofs of 90% of the houses built
today, though. Perhaps you should use roofing nails to fasten it back
together?
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Works for me. However I really should just
> killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
> and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
> them.
That would be me! I also refer to my DeWalt 740 as a "Radio Alarm Slaw".
I haven't gone over the edge *yet*, I've got the tools and talent to
sharpen a pencil on the lathe but have yet to do so. Although... I wonder
what would be faster: New pencil on the lathe or in the pencil sharpener.
Puckdropper
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Yep! I find it varies, greatly depending on the lot.
> Apparently, even from Asia you don't want thing made on a Monday morning
> or Friday afternoon. :-)
>
> I got some 13 ply, 3/4" baltic once from HD that was sitting on a pallet
> marked "special buy" and "closeout." $25 a sheet!!! And I only
> bought one.
>
> To this day, some of the highest quality cabinet grade plywood I've ever
> used.
>
>
I got some of that too. Now that I'm a little older and a lot wiser, I'd
probably buy the pallet! You're just not going to get better stuff,
especially at $25/sheet!
Puckdropper
On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 21:39:57 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 21:23:29 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:35:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 11/6/16 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>>>>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when the
>>>>> squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet of
>>>>> plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least
>>>>> half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75
>>>>> Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it
>>>>> down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>>>>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess
>>>>> I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've
>>>>> gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>>>>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>>> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>>>
>>>
>>>No idea the country of origin.
>>>The cheapest I could buy? Yes, in my area.
>>>It's BCX, and I'm building industrial storage bins, so I don't expect
>>>nor even want perfection. What I *do* reasonably expect is for basic,
>>>minimum quality standards for plywood to be met.
>>>
>>>Among the minimum quality standards are 1. straight & square, and 2. the
>>>plies of the "ply"wood to actually be glued together. Without the
>>>latter, I submit that it's not even plywood, but simply a quantity of
>>>stacked veneers.
>>
>>I wouldn't think it would pass the spec for structural plywood, which
>>is what CDX is. It's probably on the roofs of 90% of the houses built
>>today, though. Perhaps you should use roofing nails to fasten it back
>>together?
> Where to you live that they use CDX ply on 90% of roofs? Around hear
>better than 90% is one or another type of OSB. Terrible stuff, in my
>opinion.
Anywhere hurricanes/high winds are an issue. My houses have all had
CDX roof decking, even in Vermont (where ice and water was the issue).
OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it
on roofs should be taken out and shot.
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 08:36:34 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>
>Wood shipped to China, sent back as wood potato chips, light on the glue.
>
>What the world thinks of the US the past 8 years ...
>
>Prepare yourself for more of the same.
True, very true.
On Saturday, November 5, 2016 at 11:44:24 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> This might seem like D=C3=A9j=C3=A0 vu for some, because I'm pretty sure =
I've
> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>=20
> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
> room was a sheet of plywood.
> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>=20
> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
> plywood that was crooked, too.
>=20
> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>=20
Where did you buy it. I'll be sure to avoid that place.
On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
Wood shipped to China, sent back as wood potato chips, light on the glue.
What the world thinks of the US the past 8 years ...
Prepare yourself for more of the same.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/6/2016 10:38 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> After having assembled so many different brands of this crap, I've
> actually been brainwashed into being encouraged when I run into an Ikea
> box. At least with Ikea, it's designed well, the metal parts aren't
> going to snap, there's some actual solid wood in many components, and
> I'm not going to have to preemptive repairs to ward off call-backs. I
> show up to the client's house'office and see an Ikea box and I'm like,
> "Oh great, the good stuff." How sick is that? :-)
I'd say damned sick, then again it may be better built than some of the
houses it's going in ....
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/6/2016 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>
>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>> room was a sheet of plywood.
>> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>
>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>> plywood that was crooked, too.
>>
>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
> Chinese plywood?
> The cheapest crap you could buy?
>
And oddly very often better quality than domestic costing 30% more.
BC kinda takes your chance.
AB is good.
What brand is it - is it metric ? Likely from Chile.
Martin
On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>
> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
> room was a sheet of plywood.
> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>
> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
> plywood that was crooked, too.
>
> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
> > world today.
> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
>
> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
>
> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
underneath.
In article <a5mv1c9ogk5n03qt9efj9dmb4rvdsq46ca@
4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:49:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >[email protected] says...
> >>
> >> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>
> >> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
> >> > world today.
> >> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
> >> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
> >> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
> >>
> >> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
> >> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
> >> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
> >>
> >> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
> >> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
> >
> >You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
> >way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
> >that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
> >of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
> >has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
> >underneath.
>
> If you enjoy sleeping in termite vomit, I certainly won't stop you.
Works for me. However I really should just
killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
them.
In article <qvsv1c5mit0ca2a4uip0drgrlei5mhq9dn@
4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 21:39:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <a5mv1c9ogk5n03qt9efj9dmb4rvdsq46ca@
> >4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
> >>
> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:49:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >> >[email protected] says...
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
> >> >> > world today.
> >> >> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
> >> >> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
> >> >> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
> >> >>
> >> >> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
> >> >> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
> >> >> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
> >> >>
> >> >> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
> >> >> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
> >> >
> >> >You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
> >> >way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
> >> >that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
> >> >of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
> >> >has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
> >> >underneath.
> >>
> >> If you enjoy sleeping in termite vomit, I certainly won't stop you.
> >
> >Works for me. However I really should just
> >killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
> >and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
> >them.
>
> No, I don't like termite vomit for furniture and Ikea is the worst of
> the worst. Like many here, at least one would expect in a NG with
> "woodworking" in its name, that most like real wood. Yes, I
> appreciate fine things. Sue me.
>
> I don't have a particular fondness for Toyotas either but you're
> welcome to guess again.
>
> You really are one sensitive bastard. Please do killfile me if you
> can't stand a disagreement. You simply aren't worth it.
It's not disagreement, it's use of cutesy
pejoratives. And into the killfile you go.
<plonk>
In article <5820152d$0$34559$c3e8da3$dbd57e7
@news.astraweb.com>, Puckdropper says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > Works for me. However I really should just
> > killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
> > and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
> > them.
>
> That would be me! I also refer to my DeWalt 740 as a "Radio Alarm Slaw".
>
> I haven't gone over the edge *yet*, I've got the tools and talent to
> sharpen a pencil on the lathe but have yet to do so. Although... I wonder
> what would be faster: New pencil on the lathe or in the pencil sharpener.
The thing is, you're not a jerk about it. Some
people act like the choices they make are the
only correct choices and the use of one product
over another makes them somehow superior. I get
bored with that very quickly--discussions with
such people quickly turn into something that
resembles theology and if I wanted to discuss
theology I'd have joined the clergy.
I've seen a show on Alaska building in the outback and they got a pallet
that was brought in and put under a tarp. When they went to it - it was
coming apart. Either the buyer bought cheap or didn't know and the
seller is likely just taking money.(bad on him also).
Martin
On 11/10/2016 8:57 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 11/9/2016 11:59 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> Maybe 25 years ago or so in the San Fernando valley - south San Jose
>> there was a large builder that was caught with his pants down.
>>
>> 80 some houses lost their roofs because the OSB was glued up with water
>> based glue. It took several storms for the OSB to turn into globs.
>
> Yes, that would be a disaster. If indoor plywood gets wet, it explodes
> as well. When I was young you had to specify indoor or outdoor for
> plywood. Not sure the indoor stuff is that common today, I think all
> the glues are fairly water resistant, but I'm just guessing, I rarely
> buy plywood or build much indoors or outdoors any more so it's just a
> feeling I get.
>
On 11/12/2016 9:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/11/2016 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
>
> Ditto ... and proving there are many grades, as well as valid uses, of
> "oriented strand board" that many not in the construction trade are
> apparently unaware.
>
> IIRC, you used AdvanTech on your shop floor? Happy with it?
>
Around here in my area of NJ Pittstown, NJ central western ..
many of the houses being built or expaned seem to be wrapped in ply , I
see a lot less OSB.. There still is some OSB, but I have noticed the
last few years ply is making a comeback.
Same with commercial small buildings.
Not sure why, just an observation.. There is a lot less building going
on then b4 2009, but its still noticeable that ply has comeback.
--
Jeff
Maybe 25 years ago or so in the San Fernando valley - south San Jose
there was a large builder that was caught with his pants down.
80 some houses lost their roofs because the OSB was glued up with water
based glue. It took several storms for the OSB to turn into globs.
He had to go in, clean up the mess and replace the roofs and interior if
not protected from rain in time.
I think what it was mill mistake. If you know the plants - OSB is made
in an OSB plant. Ply in a ply plant.
That is the way it is done out here. Chip trucks sometimes come from
one mill to the other - as scrap is valuable in OSB more than heat.
A judge was required to get him into action.
Martin
On 11/8/2016 8:07 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 11/7/2016 9:49 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> Water based glue used on interior grades will give up if it is
>> wet or kept in high humidity.
>>
>> Exterior ply is made of tough strong glue. It doesn't give up.
>>
>> I suspect you got ply that was in the rain - maybe the stack so your
>> sheet doesn't look like it got rained on. Also the B is open with
>> voids. Knot holes. They help wick in moisture.
>
> I agree completely. Voids are always a problem with lower grade ply.
> Should still be square however. If your stuff is not square you need to
> complain loudly, that's the mills problem and needs addressed by the
> retailer.
>
> Glue is the biggie for outdoor stuff. The wood lasts as long as it can
> dry out.
>
> OSB used for roofs must have some awesome glue, impervious to water,
> bugs, mold, etc. No living thing seems to eat it, that stuff holds up
> quite well. I know from experience. Some here are trashing it (Kevin),
> which really surprises me. I guess they never used it and are out to
> lunch on this one. When I first noticed it used in homes, I was
> surprised. Now I know why it's used. Probably not good for ground
> contact, but not much is, other than pressure treated stuff with a high
> poison to wood ratio:-)
>
>
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:49:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
>> > world today.
>> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
>> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
>> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
>>
>> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
>> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
>> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
>>
>> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
>> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
>
>You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
>way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
>that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
>of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
>has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
>underneath.
If you enjoy sleeping in termite vomit, I certainly won't stop you.
On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 5:05:05 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/11/16 2:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:50:50 AM UTC-5, krw wrote:
> >> On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:22:07 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11/10/2016 2:36 PM, krw wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
> >>>>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
> >>>>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat ho=
uses I
> >>>>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was=
in the
> >>>>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. =
I asked
> >>>>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
> >>>>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of yo=
u that
> >>>>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, =
and
> >>>>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who use=
s it on
> >>>>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a cr=
ap.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
> >>>>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. =
My
> >>>>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is i=
n
> >>>>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x'=
s
> >>>>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
> >>>> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
> >>>> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
> >>>> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
> >>>
> >>> Bullshit!
> >>
> >> Ah, so you were there. Why the *F_CK* didn't you help!
> >>
> >>>>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
> >>>>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
> >>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
> >>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
> >>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
> >>>>
> >>>> 1- It's a frappin' shed.
> >>>
> >>> Yeahbutt I never told the OSB what it was being used on.
> >>
> >> Size matters.
> >>
> >>>> 2- Anecdote <> evidence.
> >>>
> >>> Experience =3D evidence. Common usage =3D evidence. You =3D bullshit=
!
> >>
> >> You can keep repeating bullshit but that doesn't make it smell any
> >> better.
> >>>
> >>>>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofi=
ng.
> >>>>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
> >>>>> shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/wa=
s in
> >>>>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
> >>>
> >>>> OSB isn't.
> >>>
> >>> it is!
> >>
> >> You can continue to say that but you can also continue to be *wrong*.
> >> there is a reason it's not allowed as corner sheathing in many areas.
> >> Plywood or diagonal bracing is required.
> >
> > I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but this (admittedly 10 year old) arti=
cle
> > makes no distinction between plywood and OSB when discussing Wall Braci=
ng
> > and the IRC.
> >
> > http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/wall-bracing-and-the-irc_o
> >
> > This one discusses using OSB to corner brace a foam sheathed wall:
> > "It=E2=80=99s possible to brace a wall with just a few sheets of plywoo=
d or OSB.
> > A small house may require only two sheets of OSB per wall, usually loca=
ted
> > at the corners."
> >
> > http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2011/05/19/4-options-for-shear-bracing-=
foam-sheathed-walls
> >
> > Habitat For Humanity in Denver is fine with OSB for sheathing, but not =
for
> > barricades across openings.
> >
> > https://www.habitatmetrodenver.org/media/filer_public/72/83/7283a729-92=
2d-4fec-941c-dd3ad4a4d997/301c_-_framing_exterior_walls.pdf
> >
> > I'm sure some local codes are stricter, and there may even an updated I=
RC
> > since 2006, but it seems (at least to me) that OSB is an acceptable pr=
oduct
> > for bracing.
> >
> > As always, I'm willing to be proven wrong as I learn. ;-)
> >
>=20
> How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
>=20
I apologize for interrupting.
Carry on...
On 11/11/2016 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
Ditto ... and proving there are many grades, as well as valid uses, of
"oriented strand board" that many not in the construction trade are
apparently unaware.
IIRC, you used AdvanTech on your shop floor? Happy with it?
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>
>What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>room was a sheet of plywood.
>I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>
>I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>plywood that was crooked, too.
>
>Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
Quality Control via the consumer, shift the scrap down the hill, and
you know what runs down hill.
Mark
On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 11:12:42 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/6/16 8:33 AM, Leon wrote:
> > On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> This might seem like D=C3=A9j=C3=A0 vu for some, because I'm pretty su=
re I've
> >> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
> >>
> >> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
> >> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
> >> room was a sheet of plywood.
> >> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
> >> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabin=
et
> >> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
> >>
> >> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjus=
t
> >> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
> >> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensiv=
e"
> >> plywood that was crooked, too.
> >>
> >> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
> >> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
> >> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I have taken plywood back when the surface is not glued down.
> > Additionally, and this will confuse you even more, my supplier offers
> > donestic and import plywood. Domestic is always more expensive and not
> > always better. ;~(
>=20
>=20
> The stuff that opened up in the middle after cutting will be going back.
>=20
Unfortunately it will only be going back to the store that you bought it=20
from and maybe, just maybe, the distributor. Odds are it will never make
it back to the manufacturer for inspection and possible process improvement=
.
You'll get your money back but the problem will still exist.
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>
>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>
>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>
>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>
>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>
>That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
>nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
>Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
>perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
>hold better than ply, it is negligible.
Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
>
>You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
>after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>
>http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
>http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
>http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
>http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
1- It's a frappin' shed.
2- Anecdote <> evidence.
>
>When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
>Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
>shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
>the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
OSB isn't.
Might be insurance company mandate after the coastal destruction of most
buildings.
It was later determined that keeping the wind out of the building
saves the building.
Martin
On 11/13/2016 9:42 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 11/12/2016 9:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/11/2016 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>> How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
>>
>> Ditto ... and proving there are many grades, as well as valid uses, of
>> "oriented strand board" that many not in the construction trade are
>> apparently unaware.
>>
>> IIRC, you used AdvanTech on your shop floor? Happy with it?
>>
>
> Around here in my area of NJ Pittstown, NJ central western ..
> many of the houses being built or expaned seem to be wrapped in ply , I
> see a lot less OSB.. There still is some OSB, but I have noticed the
> last few years ply is making a comeback.
>
> Same with commercial small buildings.
>
> Not sure why, just an observation.. There is a lot less building going
> on then b4 2009, but its still noticeable that ply has comeback.
>
On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>
> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
> room was a sheet of plywood.
> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>
> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
> plywood that was crooked, too.
>
> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>
>
I have taken plywood back when the surface is not glued down.
Additionally, and this will confuse you even more, my supplier offers
donestic and import plywood. Domestic is always more expensive and not
always better. ;~(
On 11/10/2016 9:47 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>
>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>
>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>
>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>
>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>
> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
>
> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
>
> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
> shot' Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
>
Well my home was built in 87, and the osb rotted away on the sheathing.
I had to replace sections that I was working on as it would not hold a nail.
It all turned black... was not water logged, was just rotted .. I think
the glue gave really.
A bunch of you told me how much better OsB is today. I'm not sure yet.
But I still harbor lots of ill feelings about it. I know that if I ever
strip off the aluminum siding, I'll probably have to replace all the
sheathing.
--
Jeff
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:22:07 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/10/2016 2:36 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>>>
>>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>>>
>>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>>>
>>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
>>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
>>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
>>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
>>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
>>
>> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
>> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
>> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
>> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
>
>Bullshit!
Ah, so you were there. Why the *F_CK* didn't you help!
>>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
>>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>>>
>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
>>
>> 1- It's a frappin' shed.
>
>Yeahbutt I never told the OSB what it was being used on.
Size matters.
>> 2- Anecdote <> evidence.
>
>Experience = evidence. Common usage = evidence. You = bullshit!
You can keep repeating bullshit but that doesn't make it smell any
better.
>
>>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
>>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
>>> shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
>>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
>
>> OSB isn't.
>
>it is!
You can continue to say that but you can also continue to be *wrong*.
there is a reason it's not allowed as corner sheathing in many areas.
Plywood or diagonal bracing is required.
On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 15:19:39 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>On 11/6/2016 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>>> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>
>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>>> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>>> room was a sheet of plywood.
>>> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>>> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>>> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>
>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>>> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>>> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>>> plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>
>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>> Chinese plywood?
>> The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>
>
>
>And oddly very often better quality than domestic costing 30% more.
No, the cheapest you can buy is very seldom better than higher priced
domestic. There is good imported stuff that is cheaper than domestic -
and possibly better - but that's not "the cheapest you can buy"
Water based glue used on interior grades will give up if it is
wet or kept in high humidity.
Exterior ply is made of tough strong glue. It doesn't give up.
I suspect you got ply that was in the rain - maybe the stack so your
sheet doesn't look like it got rained on. Also the B is open with
voids. Knot holes. They help wick in moisture.
Standards are based on classes. Dimensions are based on sheet size.
Foreign junk isn't controlled or is ignored at the port or manufacture.
US spec controls US mills and anyone that presses it for quality.
If you are buying Chile or Chinese wood, their spec counts unless the
buyer requires other specs.
Martin
On 11/6/2016 10:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/6/16 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> BC kinda takes your chance.
>>
>> AB is good.
>>
>> What brand is it - is it metric ? Likely from Chile.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
> I disagree. You shouldn't have to "take your chance" on basic standards
> of manufacturing. By that reason, if one buys the cheapest tire off the
> shelf, then if it doesn't hold air, well, "Tough luck, you bought the
> cheap stuff." That's bull$h!t and any attempt to defend it is simply
> rationalization for what has become a very substandard industry.
>
> There are grades of plywood for a reason and it's mostly cosmetic, and
> has nothing to do with the quality of manufacturing.
> The grading of plywood should never be a determining factor for the
> minimum standards of all plywood.
>
> I don't care *what* grade the plywood is, or how low, if that $h!t
> de-laminates on its own, it's defective, plain and simple.
>
>
On Mon, 07 Nov 2016 16:04:41 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>krw <[email protected]> writes:
>>On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:43:16 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>>It's not disagreement, it's use of cutesy
>>>pejoratives. And into the killfile you go.
>>>
>>><plonk>
>>>
>>You really are a whiney little bitch. Keep me there.
>
>This, from the guy who called an entire state a "hole" in
>an earlier post today. Look in the mirror much?
Another whiney bitch heard from.
You got that right. Illinois is a real shit hole. Worse, even than
New York or California, though they get honorable mention.
On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 09:07:53 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/8/2016 8:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:07:53 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> OSB used for roofs must have some awesome glue, impervious to water,
>>> bugs, mold, etc. No living thing seems to eat it, that stuff holds up
>>> quite well. I know from experience. Some here are trashing it (Kevin),
>>> which really surprises me. I guess they never used it and are out to
>>> lunch on this one. When I first noticed it used in homes, I was
>>> surprised. Now I know why it's used. Probably not good for ground
>>> contact, but not much is, other than pressure treated stuff with a high
>>> poison to wood ratio:-)
>
>> There is OSB, and then there is OSB. Some of it has such a high
>> resin content it stands up well to moisture - and even soaking. The
>> rest swells like crazy when it get set, and falls apart like wet
>> newpaper as soon as it gets wet. Lots of shed kits made of the latter
>> were sold a few years back - siding was not included but was required
>> according to the plans. Many never got siding or even a coat of paint,
>> and they just disintegrated in about 2 or 3 years.. A lot of that
>> cheap "aspenite" was also used for subfloors, and a water leak
>> anywhere caused the stuff to give way.
>
>I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>neither did the cat houses I built.
>
>When krw said, and I quote:
>
>"OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>roofs should be taken out and shot."
Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>Well, it shows he is clueless, and someone besides the builders using it
>should be "taken out and shot". Virtually ALL roofs are sheathed with
>this stuff around here, and I suspect the rest of the country is the same.
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:46:18 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/6/16 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> BC kinda takes your chance.
>>
>> AB is good.
>>
>> What brand is it - is it metric ? Likely from Chile.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
>I disagree. You shouldn't have to "take your chance" on basic standards
>of manufacturing. By that reason, if one buys the cheapest tire off the
>shelf, then if it doesn't hold air, well, "Tough luck, you bought the
>cheap stuff." That's bull$h!t and any attempt to defend it is simply
>rationalization for what has become a very substandard industry.
>
>There are grades of plywood for a reason and it's mostly cosmetic, and
>has nothing to do with the quality of manufacturing.
>The grading of plywood should never be a determining factor for the
>minimum standards of all plywood.
>
>I don't care *what* grade the plywood is, or how low, if that $h!t
>de-laminates on its own, it's defective, plain and simple.
No arguement there - but buying the cheapest crap you can buy greatly
increases the likelihood that it WILL be defective.
On 11/6/16 8:33 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>
>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>> room was a sheet of plywood.
>> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>
>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>> plywood that was crooked, too.
>>
>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>
>>
>
> I have taken plywood back when the surface is not glued down.
> Additionally, and this will confuse you even more, my supplier offers
> donestic and import plywood. Domestic is always more expensive and not
> always better. ;~(
The stuff that opened up in the middle after cutting will be going back.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/6/16 8:36 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>
> Wood shipped to China, sent back as wood potato chips, light on the
> glue.
>
> What the world thinks of the US the past 8 years ...
>
> Prepare yourself for more of the same.
>
Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
world today.
People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
In my strategy to adapt to survive, I've actually been doing a lot of
furniture assembly for good cash. People buy all this "boxed furniture"
and it's a very daunting task to put it all together if you've never
done it before. I've gotten pretty quick at it and even know to bring
spare parts and proper glue with me.
After having assembled so many different brands of this crap, I've
actually been brainwashed into being encouraged when I run into an Ikea
box. At least with Ikea, it's designed well, the metal parts aren't
going to snap, there's some actual solid wood in many components, and
I'm not going to have to preemptive repairs to ward off call-backs. I
show up to the client's house'office and see an Ikea box and I'm like,
"Oh great, the good stuff." How sick is that? :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
> Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
> world today.
> People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
> hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
> instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On 11/6/16 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>
>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when the
>> squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet of
>> plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least
>> half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75
>> Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it
>> down to 1/8" or closer?
>>
>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess
>> I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've
>> gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>
>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>
No idea the country of origin.
The cheapest I could buy? Yes, in my area.
It's BCX, and I'm building industrial storage bins, so I don't expect
nor even want perfection. What I *do* reasonably expect is for basic,
minimum quality standards for plywood to be met.
Among the minimum quality standards are 1. straight & square, and 2. the
plies of the "ply"wood to actually be glued together. Without the
latter, I submit that it's not even plywood, but simply a quantity of
stacked veneers.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/6/16 8:23 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:35:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/16 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>>>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>>
>>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when the
>>>> squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet of
>>>> plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least
>>>> half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75
>>>> Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it
>>>> down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>>>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess
>>>> I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've
>>>> gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>>>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>>
>>
>> No idea the country of origin.
>> The cheapest I could buy? Yes, in my area.
>> It's BCX, and I'm building industrial storage bins, so I don't expect
>> nor even want perfection. What I *do* reasonably expect is for basic,
>> minimum quality standards for plywood to be met.
>>
>> Among the minimum quality standards are 1. straight & square, and 2. the
>> plies of the "ply"wood to actually be glued together. Without the
>> latter, I submit that it's not even plywood, but simply a quantity of
>> stacked veneers.
>
> I wouldn't think it would pass the spec for structural plywood, which
> is what CDX is. It's probably on the roofs of 90% of the houses built
> today, though. Perhaps you should use roofing nails to fasten it back
> together?
>
LMAO! I literally laughed out loud at that.
That's probably what the Home Depot guy will tell me when I return it.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/6/16 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> BC kinda takes your chance.
>
> AB is good.
>
> What brand is it - is it metric ? Likely from Chile.
>
> Martin
>
I disagree. You shouldn't have to "take your chance" on basic standards
of manufacturing. By that reason, if one buys the cheapest tire off the
shelf, then if it doesn't hold air, well, "Tough luck, you bought the
cheap stuff." That's bull$h!t and any attempt to defend it is simply
rationalization for what has become a very substandard industry.
There are grades of plywood for a reason and it's mostly cosmetic, and
has nothing to do with the quality of manufacturing.
The grading of plywood should never be a determining factor for the
minimum standards of all plywood.
I don't care *what* grade the plywood is, or how low, if that $h!t
de-laminates on its own, it's defective, plain and simple.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/7/16 2:57 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 11:12:42 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/6/16 8:33 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/5/2016 11:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure I've
>>>> posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>>
>>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!?
>>>> There was a day when the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the
>>>> room was a sheet of plywood.
>>>> I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least half of them
>>>> aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75 Baltic birch cabinet
>>>> grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can adjust
>>>> the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess I wouldn't
>>>> be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've gotten "expensive"
>>>> plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it looks
>>>> like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have taken plywood back when the surface is not glued down.
>>> Additionally, and this will confuse you even more, my supplier offers
>>> donestic and import plywood. Domestic is always more expensive and not
>>> always better. ;~(
>>
>>
>> The stuff that opened up in the middle after cutting will be going back.
>>
>
> Unfortunately it will only be going back to the store that you bought it
> from and maybe, just maybe, the distributor. Odds are it will never make
> it back to the manufacturer for inspection and possible process improvement.
>
> You'll get your money back but the problem will still exist.
>
I'm not on a crusade. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/7/16 3:19 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/6/2016 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>
>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when
>>> the squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet
>>> of plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at
>>> least half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking
>>> about $75 Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at
>>> least get it down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>
>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I
>>> guess I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that
>>> I've gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>
>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a
>>> big bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah,
>>> it looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>
>
>
> And oddly very often better quality than domestic costing 30% more.
Yep! I find it varies, greatly depending on the lot.
Apparently, even from Asia you don't want thing made on a Monday morning
or Friday afternoon. :-)
I got some 13 ply, 3/4" baltic once from HD that was sitting on a pallet
marked "special buy" and "closeout." $25 a sheet!!! And I only
bought one.
To this day, some of the highest quality cabinet grade plywood I've ever
used.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/6/2016 10:39 PM, krw wrote:
> Anywhere hurricanes/high winds are an issue. My houses have all had
> CDX roof decking, even in Vermont (where ice and water was the issue).
> OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it
> on roofs should be taken out and shot.
OSB has been used almost 100% on roofs in my area (PGH) for many years
now. It is the perfect material for roofing. I used it on my shed roof
26 years ago, good as new. It's about impervious to weather. My son
brought home 3 boxes made out of it from a department store warehouse
that something came packed in. We made a couple of feral cat houses out
of it. They have been outside, unfinished in Pgh weather for over 16
years. The are still in very good shape. Only plywood I know they would
last as well is Wolmanized or Cedar. I don't have any recent pics but
other than discoloring, they are very good shape. They outlasted 4 of
the cats, one cat left.
http://jbstein.com/Flick/CHDCP2_1965.JPG
http://jbstein.com/Flick/CHP1030152.JPG
I knew they would last because several cabins on an island near me were
made of this stuff, also unfinished and they were in perfect shape after
many years in the weather, including floods.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/7/2016 4:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I got some 13 ply, 3/4" baltic once from HD that was sitting on a pallet
> marked "special buy" and "closeout." $25 a sheet!!! And I only
> bought one.
>
> To this day, some of the highest quality cabinet grade plywood I've ever
> used.
I did exactly the same thing when I built my rolling lumber rack. It
was cheaper than the cheap stuff I planned on using. I had a hard time
cutting it up for rack as it was too good, but I did anyway. Should
have bought more, but I don't build much anymore.
I've never bought plywood that was not square and dimensionally correct
though(width/Length). Moreover, I've noted that the lumber I buy at my
HD is always square. Years ago, when we still had lumber yards around,
lumber was never square and always had to be squared off before using.
Today, I assume because the milling equipment is much better, it is
99.999% square right off the shelf. I'm surprised you are getting
unsquare material. BCX is pretty bad stuff though, you need at least AB
from my experience, but it should at be square...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/7/2016 9:49 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Water based glue used on interior grades will give up if it is
> wet or kept in high humidity.
>
> Exterior ply is made of tough strong glue. It doesn't give up.
>
> I suspect you got ply that was in the rain - maybe the stack so your
> sheet doesn't look like it got rained on. Also the B is open with
> voids. Knot holes. They help wick in moisture.
I agree completely. Voids are always a problem with lower grade ply.
Should still be square however. If your stuff is not square you need to
complain loudly, that's the mills problem and needs addressed by the
retailer.
Glue is the biggie for outdoor stuff. The wood lasts as long as it can
dry out.
OSB used for roofs must have some awesome glue, impervious to water,
bugs, mold, etc. No living thing seems to eat it, that stuff holds up
quite well. I know from experience. Some here are trashing it (Kevin),
which really surprises me. I guess they never used it and are out to
lunch on this one. When I first noticed it used in homes, I was
surprised. Now I know why it's used. Probably not good for ground
contact, but not much is, other than pressure treated stuff with a high
poison to wood ratio:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/8/2016 8:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:07:53 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> OSB used for roofs must have some awesome glue, impervious to water,
>> bugs, mold, etc. No living thing seems to eat it, that stuff holds up
>> quite well. I know from experience. Some here are trashing it (Kevin),
>> which really surprises me. I guess they never used it and are out to
>> lunch on this one. When I first noticed it used in homes, I was
>> surprised. Now I know why it's used. Probably not good for ground
>> contact, but not much is, other than pressure treated stuff with a high
>> poison to wood ratio:-)
> There is OSB, and then there is OSB. Some of it has such a high
> resin content it stands up well to moisture - and even soaking. The
> rest swells like crazy when it get set, and falls apart like wet
> newpaper as soon as it gets wet. Lots of shed kits made of the latter
> were sold a few years back - siding was not included but was required
> according to the plans. Many never got siding or even a coat of paint,
> and they just disintegrated in about 2 or 3 years.. A lot of that
> cheap "aspenite" was also used for subfloors, and a water leak
> anywhere caused the stuff to give way.
I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
neither did the cat houses I built.
When krw said, and I quote:
"OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
roofs should be taken out and shot."
Well, it shows he is clueless, and someone besides the builders using it
should be "taken out and shot". Virtually ALL roofs are sheathed with
this stuff around here, and I suspect the rest of the country is the same.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>
>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>
>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>
> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
hold better than ply, it is negligible.
You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
shot' Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/9/2016 11:59 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Maybe 25 years ago or so in the San Fernando valley - south San Jose
> there was a large builder that was caught with his pants down.
>
> 80 some houses lost their roofs because the OSB was glued up with water
> based glue. It took several storms for the OSB to turn into globs.
Yes, that would be a disaster. If indoor plywood gets wet, it explodes
as well. When I was young you had to specify indoor or outdoor for
plywood. Not sure the indoor stuff is that common today, I think all
the glues are fairly water resistant, but I'm just guessing, I rarely
buy plywood or build much indoors or outdoors any more so it's just a
feeling I get.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/10/2016 2:26 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 11/10/2016 9:47 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in
>>>> the
>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I
>>>> asked
>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>>
>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>>
>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses
>>>> it on
>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>>
>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>>
>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
>>
>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>>
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
>>
>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
>> shot' Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
>>
>
> Well my home was built in 87, and the osb rotted away on the sheathing.
> I had to replace sections that I was working on as it would not hold a
> nail.
>
> It all turned black... was not water logged, was just rotted .. I think
> the glue gave really.
Perhaps you got the same stuff Martin was talking about where 80 homes
were built with the wrong glue base? If my cat houses and some cabins
sided with this stuff, and exposed unfinished to the elements for 20+
years is still in good shape, not to mention millions of contractors
have been using it for many years with no problems, it would seem odd
that your stuff would rot with no exposure to water or the elements.
> A bunch of you told me how much better OsB is today. I'm not sure yet.
> But I still harbor lots of ill feelings about it. I know that if I ever
> strip off the aluminum siding, I'll probably have to replace all the
> sheathing.
Not telling you what to use, but OSB is commonly used today in the
building industry. You of course can use 1x12 sheathing like they did
in the old days, or use plywood like they did before OSB. Hopefully, no
one will shoot you for whatever you choose:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/10/2016 2:36 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>>
>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>>
>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>>
>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>>
>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
>
> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
Bullshit!
>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>>
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
>
> 1- It's a frappin' shed.
Yeahbutt I never told the OSB what it was being used on.
> 2- Anecdote <> evidence.
Experience = evidence. Common usage = evidence. You = bullshit!
>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
>> shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
> OSB isn't.
it is!
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 11/11/16 2:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:50:50 AM UTC-5, krw wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:22:07 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2016 2:36 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:47:02 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/2016 12:57 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know the early particle board was no good for damp conditions.
>>>>>>> Neither is indoor plywood. The OSB used for roofing is extremely
>>>>>>> durable. I don't think this stuff is special either. The Cat houses I
>>>>>>> made were made with container boxes used to ship clothes. It was in the
>>>>>>> early 90's that I saw it used on cabins for siding, unfinished. I asked
>>>>>>> the guy that built one, who was a carpenter by profession, how he
>>>>>>> expected it to hold up outside, as I was thinking like some of you that
>>>>>>> it was junk, and would fall apart when wet. Well, it never did, and
>>>>>>> neither did the cat houses I built.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When krw said, and I quote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "OSB is often used on walls, with CDX corners, but anyone who uses it on
>>>>>>> roofs should be taken out and shot."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right. It might take some rain but it doesn't hold nails for a crap.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's wrong as well. CDX may hold a *hair* better, if you are not
>>>>> nailing into a void, but it is a negligible difference in roofing. My
>>>>> Shed that I built 26 years ago has OSB and shingle roof and it is in
>>>>> perfect shape, and not one shingle has come loose. So just like 1x's
>>>>> hold better than ply, it is negligible.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
>>>> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
>>>> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
>>>> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
>>>
>>> Bullshit!
>>
>> Ah, so you were there. Why the *F_CK* didn't you help!
>>
>>>>> You can see that my shed and it's OSB roof is still holding up well
>>>>> after 26 years of Pgh. weather:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedN0163e.jpg
>>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1060140Rc.jpg
>>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030201c2.jpg
>>>>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/ShedP1030192.JPG
>>>>
>>>> 1- It's a frappin' shed.
>>>
>>> Yeahbutt I never told the OSB what it was being used on.
>>
>> Size matters.
>>
>>>> 2- Anecdote <> evidence.
>>>
>>> Experience = evidence. Common usage = evidence. You = bullshit!
>>
>> You can keep repeating bullshit but that doesn't make it smell any
>> better.
>>>
>>>>> When I was a kid, all homes used 1x12 sheathing (#4 pine) for roofing.
>>>>> Ply was 'cheap ass garbage' and anyone 'using it on roofs should be
>>>>> shott. Turns out 1x _is_ better, but ply is good enough. OSB is/was in
>>>>> the same place and nobody needs to be shot.
>>>
>>>> OSB isn't.
>>>
>>> it is!
>>
>> You can continue to say that but you can also continue to be *wrong*.
>> there is a reason it's not allowed as corner sheathing in many areas.
>> Plywood or diagonal bracing is required.
>
> I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but this (admittedly 10 year old) article
> makes no distinction between plywood and OSB when discussing Wall Bracing
> and the IRC.
>
> http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/wall-bracing-and-the-irc_o
>
> This one discusses using OSB to corner brace a foam sheathed wall:
> "Itâs possible to brace a wall with just a few sheets of plywood or OSB.
> A small house may require only two sheets of OSB per wall, usually located
> at the corners."
>
> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2011/05/19/4-options-for-shear-bracing-foam-sheathed-walls
>
> Habitat For Humanity in Denver is fine with OSB for sheathing, but not for
> barricades across openings.
>
> https://www.habitatmetrodenver.org/media/filer_public/72/83/7283a729-922d-4fec-941c-dd3ad4a4d997/301c_-_framing_exterior_walls.pdf
>
> I'm sure some local codes are stricter, and there may even an updated IRC
> since 2006, but it seems (at least to me) that OSB is an acceptable product
> for bracing.
>
> As always, I'm willing to be proven wrong as I learn. ;-)
>
How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/12/16 8:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/11/2016 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> How dare you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
>
> Ditto ... and proving there are many grades, as well as valid uses,
> of "oriented strand board" that many not in the construction trade
> are apparently unaware.
>
> IIRC, you used AdvanTech on your shop floor? Happy with it?
>
Extremely.
Of course, as you point out, it is a far cry from the "oriented strand
board" these guys are scratching each others' eyes out over. :-)
Nonetheless, it's a shame that people who have a bad experience with a
product at the inception of its use go on the rest of their lives with a
deep seated prejudice towards it and allow that bias to color their
opinions of just about every other "newfangled" technology that comes
along after.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/11/2016 10:50 AM, krw wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:22:07 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Bullshit. This is also why plywood, or corner bracing, is needed
>>> where OSB is used for sheathing. My VT house had OSB sheathing. I
>>> could pull a siding nail with my bare hands. I had to make sure to
>>> hit the studs or the siding would just fall off.
>>
>> Bullshit!
>
> Ah, so you were there. Why the *F_CK* didn't you help!
Probably afraid of being shot...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:07:53 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/7/2016 9:49 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> Water based glue used on interior grades will give up if it is
>> wet or kept in high humidity.
>>
>> Exterior ply is made of tough strong glue. It doesn't give up.
>>
>> I suspect you got ply that was in the rain - maybe the stack so your
>> sheet doesn't look like it got rained on. Also the B is open with
>> voids. Knot holes. They help wick in moisture.
>
>I agree completely. Voids are always a problem with lower grade ply.
>Should still be square however. If your stuff is not square you need to
>complain loudly, that's the mills problem and needs addressed by the
>retailer.
>
>Glue is the biggie for outdoor stuff. The wood lasts as long as it can
>dry out.
>
>OSB used for roofs must have some awesome glue, impervious to water,
>bugs, mold, etc. No living thing seems to eat it, that stuff holds up
>quite well. I know from experience. Some here are trashing it (Kevin),
>which really surprises me. I guess they never used it and are out to
>lunch on this one. When I first noticed it used in homes, I was
>surprised. Now I know why it's used. Probably not good for ground
>contact, but not much is, other than pressure treated stuff with a high
>poison to wood ratio:-)
There is OSB, and then there is OSB. Some of it has such a high
resin content it stands up well to moisture - and even soaking. The
rest swells like crazy when it get set, and falls apart like wet
newpaper as soon as it gets wet. Lots of shed kits made of the latter
were sold a few years back - siding was not included but was required
according to the plans. Many never got siding or even a coat of paint,
and they just disintegrated in about 2 or 3 years.. A lot of that
cheap "aspenite" was also used for subfloors, and a water leak
anywhere caused the stuff to give way.
On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 21:23:29 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:35:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On 11/6/16 6:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:44:20 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This might seem like Déjà vu for some, because I'm pretty sure
>>>> I've posted about this before, but it bears repeating.
>>>>
>>>> What's the deal with this crappy plywood!? There was a day when the
>>>> squarest, straightest, flattest thing in the room was a sheet of
>>>> plywood. I'm working with 54 sheets of 1/2" 4-ply BC and at least
>>>> half of them aren't square. I realize I'm not talking about $75
>>>> Baltic birch cabinet grade stuff, here, but can we at least get it
>>>> down to 1/8" or closer?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure when the machines are cranking this stuff out, they can
>>>> adjust the cutters periodically. How difficult is is it? I guess
>>>> I wouldn't be so pissed off if it weren't for the fact that I've
>>>> gotten "expensive" plywood that was crooked, too.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the last sheet I ripped had a big
>>>> bubble pop up in the middle because it wasn't glued. Yeah, it
>>>> looks like two 8ft. pieces of pita bread.
>>> Chinese plywood? The cheapest crap you could buy?
>>>
>>
>>No idea the country of origin.
>>The cheapest I could buy? Yes, in my area.
>>It's BCX, and I'm building industrial storage bins, so I don't expect
>>nor even want perfection. What I *do* reasonably expect is for basic,
>>minimum quality standards for plywood to be met.
>>
>>Among the minimum quality standards are 1. straight & square, and 2. the
>>plies of the "ply"wood to actually be glued together. Without the
>>latter, I submit that it's not even plywood, but simply a quantity of
>>stacked veneers.
>
>I wouldn't think it would pass the spec for structural plywood, which
>is what CDX is. It's probably on the roofs of 90% of the houses built
>today, though. Perhaps you should use roofing nails to fasten it back
>together?
Where to you live that they use CDX ply on 90% of roofs? Around hear
better than 90% is one or another type of OSB. Terrible stuff, in my
opinion.
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 21:39:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <a5mv1c9ogk5n03qt9efj9dmb4rvdsq46ca@
>4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:49:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >[email protected] says...
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
>> >> > world today.
>> >> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
>> >> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
>> >> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
>> >>
>> >> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
>> >> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
>> >> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
>> >>
>> >> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
>> >> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
>> >
>> >You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
>> >way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
>> >that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
>> >of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
>> >has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
>> >underneath.
>>
>> If you enjoy sleeping in termite vomit, I certainly won't stop you.
>
>Works for me. However I really should just
>killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
>and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
>them.
No, I don't like termite vomit for furniture and Ikea is the worst of
the worst. Like many here, at least one would expect in a NG with
"woodworking" in its name, that most like real wood. Yes, I
appreciate fine things. Sue me.
I don't have a particular fondness for Toyotas either but you're
welcome to guess again.
You really are one sensitive bastard. Please do killfile me if you
can't stand a disagreement. You simply aren't worth it.
On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:43:16 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <qvsv1c5mit0ca2a4uip0drgrlei5mhq9dn@
>4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 21:39:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <a5mv1c9ogk5n03qt9efj9dmb4rvdsq46ca@
>> >4ax.com>, [email protected] says...
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:49:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >> >[email protected] says...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 10:38:06 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Unfortunately for people who still care about craftsmanship, that's the
>> >> >> > world today.
>> >> >> > People see an $600 armoire from Ikea and think it's quality. I mean
>> >> >> > hey, at least Ikea is using solid wood in many of their items, now,
>> >> >> > instead of all termite vomit. That's where the bar is set now.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Last time we needed furniture (a credenza) we went to a consignment
>> >> >> store. Paid $300 for a used one made by a company in Tennessee. All
>> >> >> hardwood (cherry outside), dovetailed drawers, very well made.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Next time I go downstairs to the family room, I'll check the name and
>> >> >> post it - maybe they still make quality stuff.
>> >> >
>> >> >You know that termite vomit is the Scandinavian
>> >> >way, do you not? I sleep in a very pretty bed
>> >> >that was very expensive 30 years ago, with a lot
>> >> >of real teak on it, but any large flat surface
>> >> >has MDF or a reasonable facsimile thereof
>> >> >underneath.
>> >>
>> >> If you enjoy sleeping in termite vomit, I certainly won't stop you.
>> >
>> >Works for me. However I really should just
>> >killfile. People who call MDF "termite vomit"
>> >and like Toyota have something _wrong_ with
>> >them.
>>
>> No, I don't like termite vomit for furniture and Ikea is the worst of
>> the worst. Like many here, at least one would expect in a NG with
>> "woodworking" in its name, that most like real wood. Yes, I
>> appreciate fine things. Sue me.
>>
>> I don't have a particular fondness for Toyotas either but you're
>> welcome to guess again.
>>
>> You really are one sensitive bastard. Please do killfile me if you
>> can't stand a disagreement. You simply aren't worth it.
>
>It's not disagreement, it's use of cutesy
>pejoratives. And into the killfile you go.
>
><plonk>
>
You really are a whiney little bitch. Keep me there.
krw <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:43:16 -0500, "J. Clarke"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>It's not disagreement, it's use of cutesy
>>pejoratives. And into the killfile you go.
>>
>><plonk>
>>
>You really are a whiney little bitch. Keep me there.
This, from the guy who called an entire state a "hole" in
an earlier post today. Look in the mirror much?