TS-Aligner Fall 2007 Promotional Offer!

I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?

So, the goal here is to provide some sort of benefit to dealers and
customers at the same time. I want to reward existing dealers with
more business. I want to attract new dealers by creating some direct
demand. And, I want to reward customers with some savings on their
purchase. A "sale" depends on participation of existing dealers.
They aren't generally very motivated because the retail discount
doesn't translate to much at their wholesale pricing. And, it does
nothing to attract new dealers. Besides, it tends to devalue the
product in the eyes of the customer. If you have an idea which is
better than the rebate then by all means share!

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 3, 1:11 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Ed Bennett" wrote in message
> > TS-Aligner Fall 2007 10% Mail-in Rebate Offer!
>
> < fwiw soap box>
>
> Ed, you're a good guy with a great product, but I gotta tell you, I've
> personally reached the point where I see "mail in rebate" and I immediately
> run the other way.
>
> No way in hell I will ever buy _anything_ using that method of promotion.
>
> < /fwiw soap box>
>
> Sorry ... It ain't your fault, but you don't often get the opportunity to
> tell it to the horse's mouth. :)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/8/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

So, am I correct in my understanding that the negative aspect of
rebates is a bad experience with a poorly administered rebate
program? If you really received the discount that you expected then
you wouldn't have such a bad opinion of rebates?

The pricing thing is actually a rather difficult challenge. As a
manufacturer, I can't dictate retail pricing and terms to dealers.
All I can do is offer incentives for them to participate. If I knock
10% off of their wholesale pricing, they're not likely to knock 10%
off of the retail price. If they do, it's viewed as a penalty, not a
benefit.

You say that there are better ways, please share them!

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 3, 4:24 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> > "Ed Bennett" wrote in message
>
> >> TS-Aligner Fall 2007 10% Mail-in Rebate Offer!
>
> > < fwiw soap box>
>
> > Ed, you're a good guy with a great product, but I gotta tell you, I've
> > personally reached the point where I see "mail in rebate" and I immediately
> > run the other way.
>
> > No way in hell I will ever buy _anything_ using that method of promotion.
>
> Me neither. Not knocking the product but that's why I buy much more stuff from
> Best Buy than Circuit City. An offered rebate is ignored.... the price had
> better be right to begin with or I ain't inclined to buy.
>
> I've been screwed by big companies like Western Digital because I bought TWO
> instead of one hard drive (isn't that the point?). Wel, screw them... and
> that's my feeling toward any rebate offer I read.
>
> There are better ways to promote a product.
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

On Sep 3, 5:02 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:
> Ed Bennett wrote:
> >> There are better ways to promote a product.
>
> How is it that companies like Best Buy can offer competitive pricing to Circuit
> City while at the same time avoiding the ubiquitous rebates that CC offer? I
> don't know how they do it but I do know that they do it all the time.

I can't comment on how multi-billion dollar outfits like Best Buy and
Circuit City make their marketing, pricing, and promotional
decisions. I suspect that the process is significantly different from
mine ;-) I'd bet that the monthly mortgage payment doesn't figure
into the formula.

> To respond to your reply to the other poster, yes, the negativity associated
> with rebates is directly related to poorly administered programs. They make you
> hop through the hoops... if you forget to include one little requirement you're
> out of the running... there are unreasonable restrictions. "One to a
> household"? What the hell difference does it matter how many households are
> involved? Isn't the whole idea to sell MORE items? Or would you rather it
> remain "one to a customer"?

Yes, I have gone through all the hoops on a number of occasions to get
the rebate. It is a PITA to be sure. There are no hoops with my
rebate program. The form is included in the box for every TS-Aligner
product shipped to dealers. I just want to make sure that you
actually purchased the product(s) and that you are a real person.
Just fill out the name and address (without which you cannot receive
the check) and mail it back within a month of the purchase. I
personally receive the mail and process the payment. The name and
address get filed away forever - never to be used for spam or junk
mail.

Contrary to popular belief, a lot of rebate programs aren't about
increasing sales; they generally have ulterior motives. Often, they
are collecting demographic information. It's cheaper to pay end users
to fill out the form than to pay a market research firm to hunt down
the info sometime later. So, "one to a household" makes sense. My
ulterior motive involves building a dealer channel.

> But let's say you jump through the hoops, cross all the t's and dot all the i's.
> Then they just claim they never received it. Please remail it. However, since
> the original proof of purchase was in the first envelope and the company won't
> accept copies, that become a joke. However, the joke's on the original company
> as I no longer buy their products. They only get one chance to rape me.

Won't happen with me. But, I understand why people might believe that
it would.

> You had to ask these questions? You've never tried to get a rebate yourself?
> You must lead a sheltered existence. I don't know anybody who hasn't been
> screwed by a rebate offer.

Yes, I have, on several occasions. Once they decided not to award the
rebate. But, it didn't bother me all that much because I wasn't
actually betting my financial future on receiving the rebate. The
rebate just prompted me to take a closer look at the product that I
wasn't paying much attention to. It added weight the decision
process. I didn't feel as if I had been ripped off because the
product didn't cost any more than it normally did. The rebate would
have been gravy. No real regrets.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 3, 5:55 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Also why I will not buy most electronic items, like printers, from CC. If
> the "mail in rebate" is a good thing for the customer, fine ... let the
> retailer pass on immediate savings to the customer, and send in the rebate
> themselves.

Yep, the instant rebate. It requires the dealer to do something. For
high volume products which have good demand from a manufacturer that
they cannot live without this works. But, it doesn't work for my
products or my purposes.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

This works great if the dealer can't live without your products.
That's not exactly my situation ;-). I don't think there's much hope
getting them to cooperate.

On Sep 3, 5:04 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The better way that you want to know about would be the same one that the
> automobile manufacturers use. They advertise "X" dollars cash back and this
> translates to immediate price reductions to the consumer. The dealer simply
> provides proof of the purchase to the manufacturer and is reimbursed the
> discount.
> You could simply request the copy of the invoice from the distributor or
> reseller and give him back the 10% of the sale price or credit his account.
> The customer comes out ahead and really and truly you are here to serve the
> customer, not the other way around.

It just doesn't fit my situation. I really wouldn't expect a dealer -
who doesn't know anything about me or my products - to go out of their
way to administer the "instant rebate" thing for me. I would be
embarrassed to even suggest it. Ideally, the transaction should
encourage the dealer to carry the products in their store/catalog/web
site. It definitely makes it more attractive for the customer. But,
I could do that much easier if I wasn't interested in building a
dealer channel.

On Sep 3, 5:29 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> > You could simply request the copy of the invoice from the distributor or
> > reseller and give him back the 10% of the sale price or credit his
> account.
> > The customer comes out ahead and really and truly you are here to serve
> the
> > customer, not the other way around.
>
> There, Ed, is your answer on how to approach your "sale" in a manner that
> does not make the thoughtful, informed buyer feel like he is being scammed.
>
> Well put, Leon!
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/8/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

Hi Lee,

Thanks. I'm not sure that the sentiment is quite as universal as you
suggest, but the point is valid and well taken. If you've got better
ideas (and don't mind doing some freelance) I would be interested in
talking to you.

Thanks,
Ed

On Sep 3, 6:23 pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> From an old marketing man's perspective;
>
> Almost everybody has been screwed by a rebate at one time or another.
>
> Therefore all rebates are considered scams.
>
> Therefore all stores/businesses who offer them are considered crooks.
>
> And if you should offer a rebate, you will be lumped into the afore
> mentioned crook catagory.
>
> Don't get angry with me Ed. The number one problem I had with marketing
> clients was their howls of protest that they were not the bad guys. Even
> though their business practices were exactly like the bad guys.
>
> Remember, from a marketing perspective, perception is everything. For many
> (most?) folks, rebate means there is some kinda lie'n and cheatin' goin' on
> here.

On Sep 3, 5:40 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:

> 1. The mail in rebate tells me first that the product is over priced as
> the manufacturer is willing to send me the rebate.

Actually, I'm willing to pay you to do some work for me. I want you
to buy it through a dealer. Ideally, this would be a dealer that I
haven't made much progress with. It proves to him that there is some
demand.

> 2. I have to pay sales tax on the price initially paid.

You mean the full retail price, right? Sorry, not much I can do about
that!

> 3. I then have to gather the necessary rebate forms, fill out an
> envelope and pay for postage and mail the rebate request in hoping
> something doesn't get lost/trashcanned along the way.

The form comes in the box with the Aligner. You don't have to mail it
in unless you want the money.

> 4. Somebody at the other end has to process the rebate and send the
> check to me.

That would be me.

> 5. After the usual three to six months time lapse, all the while tying
> up my money, I have to waste more time cashing the check (providing I
> even get it).

If it's worth your while.

> If the item were priced at the point of the original price minus the
> rebate to begin with, I would have saved the cost of the extra tax and
> postage and a number of people would have save a lot of time and wasted
> energy.

But if I don't get any value for the rebate then it's not worth my
while either. It's not about giving away money. If I were just
looking for a way to discount the products then I wouldn't need to
involve dealers.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Hi Leuf,

Yep, I'm doing it myself. The form comes with the product. It only
requires name and address. I'm not looking for ways to avoid paying
rebates. It's simple, I just want people to buy from dealers.

Ed

On Sep 3, 8:35 pm, Leuf <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:28:05 -0700, Ed Bennett <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
> >exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?
>
> I think one difference between what you're doing and the typical
> rebates is it sounds like you are handling the rebates yourself -
> though I don't see a link to the actual rebate form in your link.
> Usually rebates on stuff bought at retail use a fullfillment center,
> whose sole job is to look for any reason to deny the rebate. I've
> heard they actually get rated by the percentage of rebates they
> reject, so there is tremendous pressure on them to find, or make up,
> any reason to deny.
>
> I've never ever personally not received a rebate, though I haven't
> really done that many. I don't see what's so difficult about reading
> instructions and sending the thing in within a month. I did recently
> send in some pretty large rebates on Pentax camera stuff. On the
> forum I read people used to glow about the handling of their rebates.
> Then they changed fullfillment centers and I've heard nothing but
> complaints since. For a company that has had perpetual rebates for a
> very long time (every few months the rebates end and they announce a
> new set of pretty much exactly the same rebates) it's just very bad to
> be having bad word of mouth. And it makes you wonder if the word of
> mouth was good about your rebates will be handled well, why did they
> change centers?
>
> So if I were you, I'd make it clear I'm personally making sure the
> rebates are handled properly. And I would have the rebate form up on
> my website as a pdf. I would make sure I have the absolute minimum of
> stuff the customer has to fill out and fine print on the form. It's
> of course necessary to have reasonable limitations, but go through the
> rebates looking for reasons to give the money not reasons to deny it.
>
> -Leuf

I think you're just missing the big picture here Leon. Kind of
reminds me of the guy who said: "It's easy to make money in the stock
market - just buy low and sell high."

On Sep 3, 10:02 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> So build a product that the dealer wants to have in stock. If it is a good
> selling item, he will want to stock it and put up with marketing techniques.
> That said, don't ask the end user/customer to do something that you would
> not ask your dealer to do. The dealer is not as important as the end user,
> period. If your product is good, the customer will find a way to buy it.

Thanks Leon, your comments are always very entertaining. So, what
exactly did you do in your career (given all the time you spend on the
wreck, I just assume you are retired)? It would seem like you want us
to believe that you were the owner of a business that invented new
products and introduced them with very successful marketing
campaigns. Please do tell us all about your experience. In addition,
I wouldn't mind your answers on a few questions. These are topics
that you raised in your reply. Perhaps you could reach down into the
depths of your knowledge and expertise to elaborate on each one with a
bit more detail.

Do you think that my customers are happy or unhappy with my products
and service?

Do you think that I have a high or low level of customer trust and
loyalty?

You know my product line, how much repeat business do you think I
should expect?

Based on what you know of my business and products, do you believe
that I'm always looking for easy solutions?

Does it seem to you like I'm disinterested, inattentive, or
argumentative to what people are saying in this thread?


On Sep 3, 10:54 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well really the big picture is to make money while pleasing the customer.
> I have been successful with that most of my career. Long term Successful
> Marketing is always about gaining customer trust, repeat business, and
> providing an easy buying experience. Nothing worth doing is always easy.
> We are just telling you that the approach of offering a rebate is one that
> is generally despised by your target audience. It's your business, what
> you make of it is up to you. You want valuable information, process what we
> have been telling you. Your customers are telling what they don't like,
> don't argue with them.

Thanks Mike! Many things said that I could not have said better. It
shows a lot of thought and understanding. I appreciate it a great
deal (especially since it saves me the trouble of answering Leon's
quips ;-).

I'm afraid that no feasible alternatives have surfaced. A few replies
seemed to show promise but ended up revealing a lot of pretense
instead of expertise. So, the rebate is still on. Several people
have already taken advantage of it. I'm a bit bemused by those who
would call them "suckers".

Yes, I'm trying to "wag the dog" so to speak. Marketing folks would
say I'm trying to create "pull" in the dealer channel. Many companies
would just throw tons of money at the problem - create a huge amount
of demand with some sort of advertising/awareness campaign and then
tell the dealers to stand in line. I don't have tons of money. I
measure my money in grams and I have to be a bit more creative in my
efforts. I'm sure that many here have no idea how much money is spent
by big companies when they launch new products or open new channels.
They probably think all the publicity is free.

Attitudes about rebates do seem to be quite phobic among some members
of the wreck. There seems to be no end to the pain and suffering that
rebates cause. Sorry that they are so afflicted. If they felt the
same way about test cuts I would be a rich man! Alas, the 30 second
rebate form has slain them but 2 hours of test cuts doesn't phase them
in the least.

A couple of suggestions have been incorporated:

- The offer on the web site has been expanded. I acknowledge that
many people have had bad experiences with rebates from other
companies. But, I assure people that this will be done right because
I will be administering this rebate program personally. No bizarre
hoops to jump through, no long forms full of personal questions, no
tricks designed to avoid payment.

- I provide a link to the PDF rebate form which will be included in
the box with all TS-Aligner product going to dealers.

- I explain that the program is designed to reward those who choose to
buy their TS-Aligner through a dealer.

The nostalgia thing sounds like fun! Not sure it would work though.
"Old" is just one component of the formula. It also needs to be
tedius and frustrating. Nothing seems to have more virtue to a "real
woodworker" than a task or tool that requires hours of hair pulling,
foot stomping, fist pounding trial and error. Then, and only then,
can they feel as if they have avoided "cheating" and have exercised
great "skill" in their pursuit of fine woodworking.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner


On Sep 4, 6:11 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sep 3, 5:40 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>> 1. The mail in rebate tells me first that the product is over priced as
> >>> the manufacturer is willing to send me the rebate.
>
> >> Actually, I'm willing to pay you to do some work for me. I want you
> >> to buy it through a dealer. Ideally, this would be a dealer that I
> >> haven't made much progress with. It proves to him that there is some
> >> demand.
>
> > Unless I am getting the product and ending up with more money than before
> > I buy the product I am not being paid by you to do some work for you. I
> > am simply getting a partial refund.
>
> Well, that's not really true Leon. You are indeed getting paid by Ed if he
> sends you back some money, having been told by him why he's doing the rebate
> program. The difference in what you suggest and what Ed's doing is the
> amount of the pay. You are right of course, that you pay is in the form of
> a refund, but it's cash all the same.
>
>
>
> > Otherwise you pay more than you should be paying.
>
> Or... you pay what you should be paying instead of taking advantage of a
> deal which is driven by the need of the manufacturer. Ed is suffering from
> a need in his distribution chain and is willing to extend a benefit to the
> end user in order to bolster up that end of his business. There is a big
> difference between paying more than you should and getting a deal. I've
> never used Ed's alignment tool and I likely never will, but I have never
> heard anyone say it was not worth what they paid for it. In fact, the
> roaring feedback from those who have used them is that they were indeed
> worth every cent they paid.
>
>
>
> >>> 4. Somebody at the other end has to process the rebate and send the
> >>> check to me.
>
> >> That would be me.
>
> > Regareldss of who is refunding us with a rebate, we have to go to the
> > store, buy the product, PLUS fill out a form, mail that form, and wait a
> > lot longer than the date purchased to eventually receive the refunded
> > rebate.
>
> Yeah, but come on Leon - you're making it sound like you're doing a lot of
> work here. Hell - anyone who is interested was going to go to the store
> anyway. Filling out rebate forms - even the most painful ones (Cingular
> telephone rebates come to mind), really takes about one minute. Certainly
> no amount of effort for any of us.
>
>
>
> > If you have not noticed, your end users are trying to tell you that it is
> > not worth our while.
>
> This is the one point that I've observed watching this thread unfold. Just
> for the record, I don't mind rebate forms too much. I do think the
> principle behind rebates usually borders on unethical - it's all about the
> gamble that most people won't complete them, so the manufacturer never
> incurs the cost, but does gain the bump in sales that the rebate temptation
> brings. But - that's just the way it is. I generally send mine in and I
> grumble when a month after I send my in, I get a notice from <Cingular> that
> my rebate will be processed within 10 weeks. 10 freakin' weeks!
>
> But that's not what Ed is offering. He's offering a quick turn around. A
> lot of good suggestions have come up about using different techniques and
> practices than rebates. Most of these Ed has demonstrated present a
> difficulty to his business. He has no control over his distribution and his
> retail arms. They do present problems for manufacturers and more so for
> smaller ones like Ed. He's trying to leverage the one direct way that he
> thinks a manufacturer can offer something to the end user that can have the
> effect of driving other areas of his business. I'm not sure the rebate will
> work as Ed plans, but I'm also not trying to re-write his business plan with
> this reply. What really struck me in this thread was the number of replies
> that talked about how much extra work rebates would be, how taxing they
> were, etc. My lifelong experience is that most people do not look at
> rebates this way. Rebates are indeed an attraction to most consumers.
> But - this is a niche group of people. Woodworkers are grumbly, stodgy old
> farts with one sided perspectives of the world. God made us that way, so
> it's the way it should be. Nothing is ever good enough for woodworkers
> unless they did it, or unless it's really, really old.
>
> Hey Ed - I just stumbled on it! A real eureka moment! Print your rebate
> forms in black and white with pictures of old table saws on the forms.
> Really old table saws. Throw a couple of pictures of hand planes and buck
> saws in the background. Get that nostalgia thing working. Throw in some
> text about prices from yesterday... Maybe even make it look like the rebate
> form was printed 60 years ago. Then... when a woodworker - and I mean a
> real woodworker like us here at the wreck, stumbles across it in the store,
> they will think they found a treasure from the past. Of couse since it's
> "60" years old, it has to be good - right? Oh yeah - dust - ship the
> product with a good stout coating of dust inside and outside the box. The
> best is yet to come Ed... Imagine the press you get when one of them (us)
> posts a thread in the group heralding this great deal they stumbled on where
> this small, customer oriented manufacturer honored a rebate from 60 years
> ago, and refunded half their money. Surely the refund was more than what
> the product sold for 60 years ago. But - this noble vendor did the
> honorable thing...
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected] Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

On Sep 4, 11:23 am, [email protected] (Stephen Bigelow)
wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I believe you've gotten a few replies as to the perceived problems. You
> also have the real problems: misplaced the receipt (probably #1
> problem), tossed the box (and thus proof of purchase), set the thing
> aside to fill out later, and missed the deadline.

So, with the rebate program being administered by me, I figure that
these problems can be worked out as they crop up. None of the issues
that you mention are insurmountable. I'm not looking for excuses to
avoid paying people. I'm looking to incent people to buy my products
through dealers.

> I'm with the majority of the folks who responded; if I'm going to buy
> it, I'm going to buy it and realize that I have maybe a 25% chance of
> getting the rebate.

Your chances improve considerably if you put your name and address on
the form, include a copy of your receipt, and mail it in to me! Proof
of purchase is necessary to avoid fraud. Name and address make it
easier for me to send the check.

> I learned my lesson with CompUSA -- lots of crap free after rebate, so I
> bought a bunch, even though I didn't have a real need. Spent $150, got
> maybe $30 back, and had $120 worth of crap that I couldn't even dump on
> eBay, because so many other people had the same idea. No more rebates
> for me.

Well, this does seem like a completely different sceneraio.

> How about compromise? Do an online rebate. Let people scan in the
> receipt and email it to you or upload it to a web site? Yeah, you might
> lose a little with the dishonest people, but chalk that up to a
> marketing cost and you'll do fine. Keep the mail-in for the people that
> can't figure out a computer.

Sure, no problem. I don't mind the scan/email thing. Works for me.
Unless you want your money by PayPal, I would still need to get a name
and address.

> Costco offers rebates, and I *will* go after those, because the process
> is so quick and easy online. (Technically, my wife fills them out, so
> they are *very* easy to do, but I believe you can even get an instant
> credit back on your AmEx Costco card.)

I just need proof of purchase and a means to provide payment. The
"mail-in" thing seemed to be the easiest thing to me. I'll modify the
web site to include the scan/email method.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Hi Allen,

The coupon thing works great in a retail environment where the item is
being purchased in person. But, it doesn't account for mail/phone/web
order dealers. It might also precipitate a price increase to cover
the carrying costs. It assumes that the dealer is willing to do some
work for me. And, it doesn't do anything to attract dealers who don't
already offer the products. I'm afraid it doesn't really apply in my
situation.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 3, 7:17 pm, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> How about an instant coupon savings. Customers can print one off your
> website or you could affix one to each box like a lot of manufacturers do
> today. Then you can instruct distributors that for each one they turn in
> that they can get some type of incentive. I wouldn't do rebates.
>
> Allen

Hi Roy,

It sounds like a great idea but in practice it would be very difficult
(and expensive) to administer. Again, it requires the dealer to do
work. It might increase prices (to cover carrying costs). And, it
does nothing to attract the dealer that doesn't currently offer the
products.

It really is a difficult problem to solve. My goal isn't just to give
out discounts. And, I'm not just looking to increase sales. I'm
trying to develop a strong and loyal dealer channel and I really don't
have a whole bunch of money to do it. I realize that rebates have
some negative sentiment associated with them but they do seem to hit
most of the bases.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner


On Sep 4, 4:16 pm, ROY! <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:56:55 -0700, Ed Bennett <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> My 2 cents worth is to offer the purchaser, proportionate to the
> amount spent on your items, a coupon code that will give him a
> 'dollars off' amount applied to his next purchase with the dealer. So
> if I spend $200. on a Bennett product at Homer's Tool Outlet, Homer
> will give me $20 off my next purchase from him and so on up and down
> the price range of your products.
> ROY!

On Sep 4, 4:55 pm, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> >Thanks Leon, your comments are always very entertaining. So, what
> >exactly did you do in your career (given all the time you spend on the
> >wreck, I just assume you are retired)? It would seem like you want us
> >to believe that you were the owner of a business that invented new
> >products and introduced them with very successful marketing
> >campaigns.
>
> I certainly did not reach that conclusion from what Leon wrote.

Well, I suppose it's possible for two people to interpret the same
words in two different ways. With Leon reflecting on the success of
his "career", suggesting various courses of action for me to take, and
waxing eloquent on various paltitudes, it's the conclusion I came to.
Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, it's not out of line to ask him to
elaborate on a topic that he raised (his "career"). I'd like to know
what qualifies him to be advising me in how to conduct my business.

> Note that you specified that a rebate (from the factory, i.e. yourself)
> could be obtained if one purchases your product via a new dealer.

New dealer, existing dealer - it doesn't matter. Buy from a dealer,
get a rebate.

> Here,
> you are asking potential customers to line up new dealers for you (yes,
> I know it costs lots of dinero to hire a sales organization and visit
> each of those dealers independently), but face it, you're asking potential
> customers to do _you_ a favor.

Yep. No doubt about it. A favor in exchange for a 10% cash rebate.
Something wrong with that? I'm not asking them to go toe to toe with
the purchasing manager and negotiate terms for a contract. Geez, I'm
just offering a cash rebate for those who choose to buy their Aligner
at a dealer.

> Many folks, as Leon and other have pointed out, don't find rebate offers
> compelling, and some even avoid such product.

Indeed they did. I have acknowledged their dislike of rebates. I've
also listened to all their suggestions. I even listened to Leon's
suggestions. When I pointed out the problems with Leon's suggestions,
he started talking about his career, offering a number of platitudes
about what is most important and what I should do, etc. So, I decided
to ask him to qualify his statements. That's all. Let's just find
out what qualifies Leon to be giving me advise in how to run my
business. Wouldn't you like to know more about Leon?

> So, after stating so, you attack him. That's not a good route towards
> building a customer base, is it?

Where did I attack Leon? Please explain how it is an attack to ask
Leon to qualify his statements. What is wrong with asking him to
elaborate on topics that he raised in his message? If the questions
embarrass him or make him feel uncomfortable, or if he finds them
difficult to answer, then perhaps he shouldn't have raised those
particular issues. Perhaps he would be better off raising issues that
he finds easier to discuss.

> I would certainly call your reply to Leon argumentative.

Well, once again we have two people interpreting the same words in two
different ways. Perhaps you think I'm now being argumentative with
you. I would say that two people can disagree on something without
arguing. Wouldn't you agree? The only way that two people can come
to a complete understanding is to discuss the issues: asking and
answering questions.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 4, 7:03 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I am not sure that I claimed to be qualified although my experience is
> credible.

I don't think you claimed to be qualified either. But, your message
alluded to qualifications so I asked you to elaborate.

> That said, you stated, "You say that there are better ways, please
> share them!"

Yes, I did.

> If you are not genuinely interested in others opinions, you should not have
> asked.

I am genuinely interested. I have read all of them. Some have led me
to make changes. I've explained why some aren't practical or even
possible. But, you'll have to admit, there was a point where the
ideas stopped flowing and the platitudes started.

On Sep 4, 5:25 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> You asked,

Yep, I did. And, it is always interesting for me to learn about
another persons life experiences. I hope you don't mind me snipping
it for brevity sake.

> At age 17 I... <snip>

Thanks for sharing. It sounds a lot like my brother. He's managed
several retail tire stores. Now he's managing a tire distribution
center for a large national chain.

I do have a bit of experience when it comes to customer service and
support. That's what I did for 17 years at HP. I developed and
implemented the service, support, and warranty programs for new
products. I've dealt with all sorts of customers from individual's
with a printer at home to Fortune 500 companies with hundreds of
thousands of pieces of equipment. I understand customer service - I
really do - on every continent and in every culture of the world.

The last product I worked on was responsible for more than $4 Billion
in revenue (yes, Billion with a "B", one single product!). My
planning (service parts stocking and distribution, call center
organization and training, repair depot training and organization,
warranty terms & conditions, etc.) saved the company more in warranty
costs on this one product than your company's entire annual sales.
Much of this experience has absolutely nothing to do with running a
small business.

> > Do you think that my customers are happy or unhappy with my products
> > and service?
>
> I know that they are happy per comments by many here on this news group.

So admonitions about "pleasing the customer" would, by your own
estimation, be completely unnecessary, right?

> > Do you think that I have a high or low level of customer trust and
> > loyalty?
>
> I would say for the customers that you have sold to that you have a high
> level of both.

So admonitions about "gaining their trust" would, by your own
estimation, be completely unnecessary, right?

> > You know my product line, how much repeat business do you think I
> > should expect?
>
> I am "familiar" with your product line. Not knowing the full range of your
> line I could not guess as to whether you have repeat business.

Well, the answer is pretty darn close to ZERO. Once a person buys a
TS-Aligner there just isn't much need to buy another. It doesn't have
any consumables. It doesn't wear out. So, "repeat business" just
isn't a very good measure of the success of my marketing programs. I
live on referal business, google, and the occasional magazine article.

> > Based on what you know of my business and products, do you believe
> > that I'm always looking for easy solutions?
>
> Again, only being familiar with your products I can only respond with a
> reasonable answer. Any business person should look for the easiest
> solutions however the customer should always be the first consideration when
> making changes to a company policy or the way it interacts with its
> customers. Sometimes a simple solution for you may affect your bottom line
> negatively if the customer gets less than what he feels is fair. There is a
> fine line between what is considered by you as an acceptable loss of
> customers and what is not acceptable.

So, I guess nothing in your knowledge of me, my company, or my
products could possibly justify an admonition like "Nothing worth
doing is always easy".

> > Does it seem to you like I'm disinterested, inattentive, or
> > argumentative to what people are saying in this thread?
>
> No, No, and Yes, at times.

Ya, I suppose you would probably consider this to be one of those
times. Sorry. It's meant to clear the air, promote understanding -
not be argumentative.

> Ed, because you are mostly seen here sporadically and because you are
> often mentioning your product here on this group I get the impression that
> you come here more to sell vs. be a regular active participant to discuss
> IYHO the best way to finish a product, where to get the best deals on
> hardware, and so on. Because you do offer sound advice even though it is
> often centered around your products this is fine with me. Same goes for
> Steve Knight. We each use this group in a way that each of us feels is
> best for us as individuals. Perhaps not as apparent I too have benefited
> from receiving repeat jobs/customers through this news group.

If there was a point here, I missed it. Most of the time I spend on
the wreck is in the fall. There just happens to be a lull between
building up inventory during the summer and the holiday sales. I
announce the annual promotion and hang around until I get too busy.
So, you probably associate most of what I say with the annual
promotion. And, I tend to spend most of my time helping people with
machinery adjustment/alignment issues.

> Anyway, it
> has always been my experience that customer satisfaction is the ultimate
> goal. With customer satisfaction and positive interaction with "yet to be
> customers", comes new customers and money. I know that profits are
> important however sales come first. With out sales, there are no profits.
> With increased sales come more opportunities to generate larger gross
> profits margins.

You do realize that I have been selling the TS-Aligner products since
1991, right? I'm not all that new to the whole customer satisfaction,
sales and profits thing. I don't pay people to rave about my products
newsgroups. They do it because they really are extremely satisfied.

Let's just touch on the "increased sales" thing. That's what the
dealer channel is all about. It's large scale exposure and
distribution like I could never do on my own. That's "the big
picture". I'm not going to drop customer satisfaction. I'm still
going to do everything I can to to promote positive interaction with
prospective customers. But, I just can't continue to sit on a
facility that can produce 100 times more product than I currently
sell. I have to do something. And the dealers just don't understand
the products or comprehend the sales potential. If it were made from
plastic in China and had a 10,000x markup they would understand. But
since it isn't, they need to see some demand before they will commit
to buy.

> IMHO common mail in rebates do not generate enough increase in sales to
> offset a possible loss of long term customer loyalty.

Just think about what you are saying. How is a rebate going to
adversely affect *MY* long term customer loyalty? Maybe if they get
pissed off at a poorly administered program, right? Well that's just
not going to happen in this case. And remember, there really isn't
much in it for me when it comes to repeat business.

> Often rebates are
> offered by the manufacturer to help the retailer move the obsolete or over
> priced product off of the shelves to make way for a more popular, better
> version of, or less expensive product. It is often that the replacement
> product trumps the older version and is a better value than the older
> version even if is not discounted. Basically the manufacturer takes the
> hit rather than make the retailer suffer the loss associated with an over
> all reduced price of inventory.

Rebates are also used to gather demographic info. And, sometimes they
are used to generate mailing lists for junk mail or sales leads for
telemarketing. None of these conditions apply to my situation.

> Mail in rebates like product coupons are
> seldom paid out because of the strict nonsense required to obtain the
> refund. Many customers forget or give up while waiting for the refund.

Again, this just doesn't apply.

> Having said that, I don't for a moment believe that your intent is anything
> other than to do only the honorable thing for your customers. You seem a
> bit too "hands on" to risk dissatisfaction from you customers and I commend
> you for this. This country needs more businessmen like you and business to
> be run like yours to rebuild its reputation and faith with it's customers.

I appreciate the compliment. But, you have to admit that it makes
your previous admonitions completely unnecessary. If you really
believe this then why all the fuss with the platitudes? I understand
and acknowledge the potential for problems. OK? Yes, these would be
valid concerns if I were thinking of hiring some scum bag company to
administer a program for one of the reasons you state above. But, you
know that this just isn't the case.

> I think the whole problem with your thread was the mention of the much
> resented "r" word.

Hmmmm..... OK. Sorry about that. Which "r" word are we talking
about? "Ret___" or "Reb___"?

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Ed Bennett wrote:

> The nostalgia thing sounds like fun! Not sure it would work though.
> "Old" is just one component of the formula. It also needs to be
> tedius and frustrating. Nothing seems to have more virtue to a "real
> woodworker" than a task or tool that requires hours of hair pulling,
> foot stomping, fist pounding trial and error. Then, and only then,
> can they feel as if they have avoided "cheating" and have exercised
> great "skill" in their pursuit of fine woodworking.
>

Ed, Today my former brother in law who works as a Woodcruft manager gave
me a great sharpening tip that will save me hours and hours and took
maybe 15 minutes to jig up for. It's a great idea, and would be even
better if it worked.

So I am feeling generous with my time and willing to make a small
contribution to this discussion.

Maybe you could run a contest using the trivia (only rarely about
woodworking) in the "What Is It" weekly post. That is, you could take
something that hasn't seen the light of day in 100 years, pull a couple
parts off it and only pay the rebate if the customer can tell you who
its former owners were. ALL of them.

Ed ... run your rebate offer. If it results in increased sales, good. If
not ... well, that's information worth knowing too.

Me ... I'm still kinda torqued that neither Home Depot nor Woodcraft had
ball-shaped cutters for my Chiwanese Dremel. (avoid the cheap, red
plastic 'flex tool grinders' at ACO ... IMO they have lousy bearings).



BTW I'm looking for a quick way to hog wood out of spoon bowls.

Bill
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" shared this gem with us
>
>> Lastly, as of Wednesday of last week I cordially withdrew my name from
>> an offer to open and manage a well known nationally recognized wood
>> working supply store. Having sent my resume in to inquire about a
>> possible part time job to add variety to my week I went to the interview
>> only to find out that I was being strongly considered for the store
>> manager position. I did not want to give up my present business for a
>> FULL time job.
>>
>
> There ya go Leon, you are just overqualified for that part time sales
> position.

Well actually, their follow up e-mail indicated that the PT job is not going
to be a problem. ;~)

>
> Maybe you can get swingman (or another creative type wrecker) to write you
> a song.

I am not so sure Swingman writes the songs, I could be wrong, but all day
long I have had this catchy tune going through my head and the voice is
sounds exactly like his wife.

>
> You can call it The Overqualifiation Blues.

;~)

"Leon" shared this gem with us

> Lastly, as of Wednesday of last week I cordially withdrew my name from an
> offer to open and manage a well known nationally recognized wood working
> supply store. Having sent my resume in to inquire about a possible part
> time job to add variety to my week I went to the interview only to find
> out that I was being strongly considered for the store manager position.
> I did not want to give up my present business for a FULL time job.
>

There ya go Leon, you are just overqualified for that part time sales
position.

Maybe you can get swingman (or another creative type wrecker) to write you a
song.

You can call it The Overqualifiation Blues.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Folks!
>
> Every year I post a special offer here on rec.woodworking to show my
> appreciation for all your help and support. This year is no
> different.
>


Excellent product! I use my TS-Aligner Jr for EVERY project. I used it
today to make sure my Osborne EB3 (miter gauge) was still square after
laying around the shop for a while. Took me 5-10 minutes and I didn't have
to make a single test cut.

No affiliation just a satisfied user.

Review:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/TS_aligner.htm

--
www.garagewoodworks.com

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> (although still not my favorite retailer for electronic goods).

So, who would be your favorite electronic retailer? I'm looking for a
Channel Master CM4221 antenna to signal the HDTV (720p) I bought from
Circuit City today (NO REBATE!) I could internet one but would like to take
it with me soes I can set the whole rig hooked up when I get out to the
ranch late this week.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston

How about an instant coupon savings. Customers can print one off your
website or you could affix one to each box like a lot of manufacturers do
today. Then you can instruct distributors that for each one they turn in
that they can get some type of incentive. I wouldn't do rebates.

Allen


"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Folks!
>
> Every year I post a special offer here on rec.woodworking to show my
> appreciation for all your help and support. This year is no
> different.
>
> TS-Aligner Fall 2007 10% Mail-in Rebate Offer!
>
> Buy a Genuine TS-Aligner product and related accessories from any
> valid woodworking tools and equipment dealer between September 1, 2007
> and December 31, 2007 and receive a 10% factory direct rebate. Any
> dealer will do, even if they have never sold TS-Aligner products
> before. Just have your favorite dealer give me a call or send me
> email. I'll provide them with everything they need to facilitate your
> purchase.
>
> Follow this link for details:
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com/announcements.htm
>
> Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. If you
> think the group would benefit from the answer please feel free to post
> your question/comment here. I will keep track of this thread and
> answer promptly.
>
> I will be posting reminders to this thread throughout the promotion to
> make sure that everyone who visits the
> wreck gets a chance to see it.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>

Ed Bennett wrote:

| Every year I post a special offer here on rec.woodworking to show my
| appreciation for all your help and support. This year is no
| different.

I've noticed. I haven't bought, but I've noticed - and appreciated
your willingness to offer people a break on what I understand to be a
good product.

| Buy a Genuine TS-Aligner product and related accessories from any
| valid woodworking tools and equipment dealer between September 1,
| 2007 and December 31, 2007 and receive a 10% factory direct rebate.
| Any dealer will do, even if they have never sold TS-Aligner products
| before. Just have your favorite dealer give me a call or send me
| email. I'll provide them with everything they need to facilitate
| your purchase.

If I decide I'm going to buy a tool, it's because I've decided that I
have a current (and nearly always, also a future) need and the tool in
question meets or exceeds my needs. I don't want to be a participant
in a sales and marketing process - I just want the tool so I can put
it to work.

Like many others, I don't trust rebate offers. At this stage of the
game I've come to believe that rebates provide the offerer with
(another) opportunity to clutter my mailboxes with wastepaper and spam
and to sell contact info to others, and I won't even consider putting
first class postage on an envelope and going to Kinko's to make a copy
of my receipt unless the rebate is large compared to the dollar and
time cost involved.

Having said that, I'll follow on with the info that large rebates (the
kind I just said might prompt me to take action) set off my internal
alarms that a product is normally grossly overpriced to begin with,
and that I need to be wary of the manufacturer/vendor involved.

Worse for you, if I decide I need your product at a time when it's not
on sale, I'm likely to feel resentful because I know I'm paying 11+%
more than if it were discounted 10%. I realize that this isn't
completely rational - but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not
feeling good about either you or your product, even though I've never
met you or tried your product.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Ed,
The problem with some dealers though is the old adage "what is in it for
me?" I work as a salesman/technical advisor for a company and the biggest
headache is always when there is a rep that wants to do something like a
rebate. I always suggest that for every widget we sell that we turn in a
coupon from a consumer, that we earn points or some type of discount towards
future purchases. At the end of the promotion, I always take the discount.
Bottom line is the most important to them and a way to improve future
profits is a likeable and doable option.
Another way is to partner with a select few distributors that are your
highest volume. Have them offer it as a Internet coupon.

Allen


"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Allen,
>
> The coupon thing works great in a retail environment where the item is
> being purchased in person. But, it doesn't account for mail/phone/web
> order dealers. It might also precipitate a price increase to cover
> the carrying costs. It assumes that the dealer is willing to do some
> work for me. And, it doesn't do anything to attract dealers who don't
> already offer the products. I'm afraid it doesn't really apply in my
> situation.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>
> On Sep 3, 7:17 pm, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How about an instant coupon savings. Customers can print one off your
>> website or you could affix one to each box like a lot of manufacturers do
>> today. Then you can instruct distributors that for each one they turn in
>> that they can get some type of incentive. I wouldn't do rebates.
>>
>> Allen
>

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, am I correct in my understanding that the negative aspect of
> rebates is a bad experience with a poorly administered rebate
> program? If you really received the discount that you expected then
> you wouldn't have such a bad opinion of rebates?
>
> The pricing thing is actually a rather difficult challenge. As a
> manufacturer, I can't dictate retail pricing and terms to dealers.
> All I can do is offer incentives for them to participate. If I knock
> 10% off of their wholesale pricing, they're not likely to knock 10%
> off of the retail price. If they do, it's viewed as a penalty, not a
> benefit.
>
> You say that there are better ways, please share them!


The problem with a rebate regardless of whether you get it fulfilled or not
is that it takes a minimum of 2-4 weeks to receive. Typically this goes
up to 3 months. The poor performance by many of those responsible for
delivering the rebate has left a very bad taste in the consumers mouth.
Foe me, the rebate IS NOT an incentive to buy a product. If the product I
buy also has a rebate then that is a plus, but certainly not a reason to buy
that product.
Basically the customer has to work to get his hopeful discount.

The better way that you want to know about would be the same one that the
automobile manufacturers use. They advertise "X" dollars cash back and this
translates to immediate price reductions to the consumer. The dealer simply
provides proof of the purchase to the manufacturer and is reimbursed the
discount.
You could simply request the copy of the invoice from the distributor or
reseller and give him back the 10% of the sale price or credit his account.
The customer comes out ahead and really and truly you are here to serve the
customer, not the other way around.

Swingman wrote:
> "Ed Bennett" wrote in message
>
>> TS-Aligner Fall 2007 10% Mail-in Rebate Offer!
>
> < fwiw soap box>
>
> Ed, you're a good guy with a great product, but I gotta tell you, I've
> personally reached the point where I see "mail in rebate" and I immediately
> run the other way.
>
> No way in hell I will ever buy _anything_ using that method of promotion.


Me neither. Not knocking the product but that's why I buy much more stuff from
Best Buy than Circuit City. An offered rebate is ignored.... the price had
better be right to begin with or I ain't inclined to buy.

I've been screwed by big companies like Western Digital because I bought TWO
instead of one hard drive (isn't that the point?). Wel, screw them... and
that's my feeling toward any rebate offer I read.

There are better ways to promote a product.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Stephen Bigelow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > I learned my lesson with CompUSA -- lots of crap free after rebate, so I
> > bought a bunch, even though I didn't have a real need. Spent $150, got
> > maybe $30 back, and had $120 worth of crap that I couldn't even dump on
> > eBay, because so many other people had the same idea. No more rebates
> > for me.
>
> You made a bad business decision. You got your rebate, you got your free
> stuff, you got exactly what the seller intended.

Oops. You may be wrong.

I've been in a similar situation, and of that $150 at CompUSA, I was
supposed to get $130 back. Instead I got $30 back.

I bought stuff because it was cheap - less than $10 after rebate.
Example: A can of compressed air to cleaning out a PC - free after
rebate. But I had to mail them the UPC symbol - which was on the can.
I sent a photocopy instead. (because the can become useless once I
removed the UPC). Never got the rebate.


And then there is the postcard you get saying the rebate would not be
honored because you didn't include everything. And when I filled out
5-10 at one time this is less that useful, as it never says which
rebate it deals with.

Getting all of those CompUSA purchases with rebates of 80% of the
price was a bad bad decision. I think they got in trouble with the
Attorney General. They no longer do any CompUSA rebates unless it's at
the register.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, am I correct in my understanding that the negative aspect of
> rebates is a bad experience with a poorly administered rebate
> program?

You got it! My definition of a poorly administered rebate program is any
program that doesn't give me my rebate as quickly and painlessly as they
charge my credit card.

I have been burned so often that if given a choice I usually select the
rebateless product.

-- Mark

Leuf <[email protected]> writes:

> I think one difference between what you're doing and the typical
> rebates is it sounds like you are handling the rebates yourself -

... instead of sending them to a PO Box in Young America, Minnesota


http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/008/ripoff0008195.htm

Ed Bennett <[email protected]> writes:

> So, am I correct in my understanding that the negative aspect of
> rebates is a bad experience with a poorly administered rebate
> program?

Yes. There are many "rebates" that (1) I never received, (2) has some
very small detail that if you messed up meant you would never get the
rebate, (3) you have to wait 4-5 weeks to even know if the rebate
worked and (4) If it goes wrong, there is nothing you can do to fix
it, and (5) they want an e-mail address so they can spam you.


For example, I had a rebate that said I must circle the item I wanted
the rebate for. I send in a sales slip which listed ONE item. I
didn't circle it.

I didn't get the rebate.


I will take an "instant rebate" - available at the cash register.
Anything related to a big box store I don't trust.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 4, 7:03 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>
> I am genuinely interested. I have read all of them. Some have led me
> to make changes. I've explained why some aren't practical or even
> possible. But, you'll have to admit, there was a point where the
> ideas stopped flowing and the platitudes started.
>
>

Sorry Ed, I never set out to be condescending or too pushy with my ideas.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 4, 4:55 pm, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
Snip


In any case, it's not out of line to ask him to
> elaborate on a topic that he raised (his "career"). I'd like to know
> what qualifies him to be advising me in how to conduct my business.
>

I am not sure that I claimed to be qualified although my experience is
credible.

That said, you stated, "You say that there are better ways, please
share them!"

If you are not genuinely interested in others opinions, you should not have
asked.

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Maxwell Lol wrote:
>> ... instead of sending them to a PO Box in Young America, Minnesota
>
> I've never been wronged by the MN rebate center, but they are
> SLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
>
> In the other hand, Staples does a great job via the online rebate system,
> and I still think the MN company issues the check.

It's a little known fact that Young America MN mail service is twice a
month, by arthritic burros. Mabel Larson process the rebates on
even-numbered Tuesdays and Wednesdays, when she feels ok.

-- Mark

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This works great if the dealer can't live without your products.
> That's not exactly my situation ;-). I don't think there's much hope
> getting them to cooperate.


So build a product that the dealer wants to have in stock. If it is a good
selling item, he will want to stock it and put up with marketing techniques.
That said, don't ask the end user/customer to do something that you would
not ask your dealer to do. The dealer is not as important as the end user,
period. If your product is good, the customer will find a way to buy it.

"Leon" wrote in message

> You could simply request the copy of the invoice from the distributor or
> reseller and give him back the 10% of the sale price or credit his
account.
> The customer comes out ahead and really and truly you are here to serve
the
> customer, not the other way around.

There, Ed, is your answer on how to approach your "sale" in a manner that
does not make the thoughtful, informed buyer feel like he is being scammed.

Well put, Leon!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Ed Bennett <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sep 3, 10:54 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well really the big picture is to make money while pleasing the customer.
>> I have been successful with that most of my career. Long term Successful
>> Marketing is always about gaining customer trust, repeat business, and
>> providing an easy buying experience. Nothing worth doing is always easy.
>> We are just telling you that the approach of offering a rebate is one that
>> is generally despised by your target audience. It's your business, what
>> you make of it is up to you. You want valuable information, process what we
>> have been telling you. Your customers are telling what they don't like,
>> don't argue with them.
>
>

Top posting repaired. Comments below.

>Thanks Leon, your comments are always very entertaining. So, what
>exactly did you do in your career (given all the time you spend on the
>wreck, I just assume you are retired)? It would seem like you want us
>to believe that you were the owner of a business that invented new
>products and introduced them with very successful marketing
>campaigns.

I certainly did not reach that conclusion from what Leon wrote.

Note that you specified that a rebate (from the factory, i.e. yourself)
could be obtained if one purchases your product via a new dealer. Here,
you are asking potential customers to line up new dealers for you (yes,
I know it costs lots of dinero to hire a sales organization and visit
each of those dealers independently), but face it, you're asking potential
customers to do _you_ a favor.

Many folks, as Leon and other have pointed out, don't find rebate offers
compelling, and some even avoid such product.

So, after stating so, you attack him. That's not a good route towards
building a customer base, is it?


>Does it seem to you like I'm disinterested, inattentive, or
>argumentative to what people are saying in this thread?

I would certainly call your reply to Leon argumentative.

scott

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 4, 5:25 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:


>
> Thanks for sharing. It sounds a lot like my brother. He's managed
> several retail tire stores. Now he's managing a tire distribution
> center for a large national chain.

Very fond memories come flooding back when I step into a tire store and
smell the rubber. ;~)


>
> I do have a bit of experience when it comes to customer service and
> support. That's what I did for 17 years at HP. I developed and
> implemented the service, support, and warranty programs for new
> products. I've dealt with all sorts of customers from individual's
> with a printer at home to Fortune 500 companies with hundreds of
> thousands of pieces of equipment. I understand customer service - I
> really do - on every continent and in every culture of the world.

When I was promoted to service sales manager my immediate task was to get
control of the volume of customer dissatisfied customers. Typically on a
Monday morning, our service advisors would receive 100 cars before seeing
the end of the line. A good 50% of those customers were back for the same
reason that they were in the previous week for. I will admit that there
were changes implemented to help the customer more but the product was the
biggest problem along with large corporation arrogance to not build a better
product.

>
>> > Do you think that my customers are happy or unhappy with my products
>> > and service?
>>
>> I know that they are happy per comments by many here on this news group.
>
> So admonitions about "pleasing the customer" would, by your own
> estimation, be completely unnecessary, right?

I think that you cannot remind yourself enough as to who is the #1 priority.
I did not intend to insinuate that you did not have your customers best
interests in mind.

>
>> > Do you think that I have a high or low level of customer trust and
>> > loyalty?
>>
>> I would say for the customers that you have sold to that you have a high
>> level of both.

> So admonitions about "gaining their trust" would, by your own
> estimation, be completely unnecessary, right?

Same as above.

>
>> > You know my product line, how much repeat business do you think I
>> > should expect?
>>
>> I am "familiar" with your product line. Not knowing the full range of
>> your
>> line I could not guess as to whether you have repeat business.
>
> Well, the answer is pretty darn close to ZERO. Once a person buys a
> TS-Aligner there just isn't much need to buy another. It doesn't have
> any consumables. It doesn't wear out. So, "repeat business" just
> isn't a very good measure of the success of my marketing programs. I
> live on referral business, google, and the occasional magazine article.

Well then my gut feeling was correct. I was not sure if you had other
products to offer or not. I naturally knew that you TS aligner would
probably be a one time purchase from a customer unless you were supplying to
a large shop.


>
>> > Based on what you know of my business and products, do you believe
>> > that I'm always looking for easy solutions?
>>
>> Again, only being familiar with your products I can only respond with a
>> reasonable answer. Any business person should look for the easiest
>> solutions however the customer should always be the first consideration
>> when
>> making changes to a company policy or the way it interacts with its
>> customers. Sometimes a simple solution for you may affect your bottom
>> line
>> negatively if the customer gets less than what he feels is fair. There
>> is a
>> fine line between what is considered by you as an acceptable loss of
>> customers and what is not acceptable.
>
> So, I guess nothing in your knowledge of me, my company, or my
> products could possibly justify an admonition like "Nothing worth
> doing is always easy".

No, it was just a statement.

>
>> > Does it seem to you like I'm disinterested, inattentive, or
>> > argumentative to what people are saying in this thread?
>>
>> No, No, and Yes, at times.
>
> Ya, I suppose you would probably consider this to be one of those
> times. Sorry. It's meant to clear the air, promote understanding -
> not be argumentative.

Yeah, but then again I was only meaning to reinforce the sentiment of others
about the general feeling about rebates. I did not mean to infer that you
would fall in with the group of companies that do not fulfill the
obligation. I just wanted to say that even by association of the "rebate"
term you may draw a negative view by a potential customer. I think you
would have to agree that a few including myself believe that a rebate sends
up a warning flag.

>
>> Ed, because you are mostly seen here sporadically and because you
>> are
>> often mentioning your product here on this group I get the impression
>> that
>> you come here more to sell vs. be a regular active participant to discuss
>> IYHO the best way to finish a product, where to get the best deals on
>> hardware, and so on. Because you do offer sound advice even though it
>> is
>> often centered around your products this is fine with me. Same goes for
>> Steve Knight. We each use this group in a way that each of us feels is
>> best for us as individuals. Perhaps not as apparent I too have benefited
>> from receiving repeat jobs/customers through this news group.
>
>>
>> Anyway, it
>> has always been my experience that customer satisfaction is the ultimate
>> goal. With customer satisfaction and positive interaction with "yet to
>> be
>> customers", comes new customers and money. I know that profits are
>> important however sales come first. With out sales, there are no
>> profits.
>> With increased sales come more opportunities to generate larger gross
>> profits margins.
>
> You do realize that I have been selling the TS-Aligner products since
> 1991, right? I'm not all that new to the whole customer satisfaction,
> sales and profits thing. I don't pay people to rave about my products
> newsgroups. They do it because they really are extremely satisfied.

No, I was not aware of that, nor would I have been surprised had you been
selling your product 10 years before that. Nor was I meaning to "whip you"
with the importance of pleasing the customer. I believe that pleasing the
customer cannot be stressed enough. Where I am coming from on this is from
the time I started to work, customer satisfaction was drilled. Drilled but
not proven. I was always fortunate to have worked in a store that had a
high volume of sales. Customer screw ups really did not ever factor in, our
store could have been twice as big and we still would have almost been too
busy with sales. Anyway when I worked for the last company, the AC/Delco
wholesaler, the father and son owned company, I saw first hand how screwing
up with the customer affected the business. Our wholesale operation did not
deal with the public at all. Our business customers provided a list of part
numbers that they wanted to buy and we filled the order. Our inventory
counts were 99.999 % accurate. 5 or 6 times a year we would find a single
deviation in quantity of what the computer said we had and what we actually
had. Our computer reflected the state of our inventory with remarkable
accuracy. Our customers appreciated it when they called for a part and we
said that we had it that we in fact did have the part even if the computer
showed a quantity of 1 on hand. Our customer basically never had to learn
of a back order from the packing slip. He knew when he placed the order if
he was going to receive the part or not. Having said all that, the owners
knew all of the customers personally and when competition stepped in and
started cutting in to the pie we naturally lost some sales. The owners had
become complacent about the #1 priority and would not change to get some
customers back. They would actually "punish" a customer that used another
wholesale provider when they would come back to us to order a part or parts
and would often triple their regular price. I still to this day shake my
head in disbelief. 6 years after I left the company the owners closed the
doors because sales had dropped to the point that having the money in the
bank earned more money than the net profit. The company was not sold, it
was simply closed down and the inventory was returned to GM for a discounted
credit. I believe to this day that the owners never saw the results of
their actions coming. These millionaires lost sight of the #1 priority.


Just think about what you are saying. How is a rebate going to
> adversely affect *MY* long term customer loyalty? Maybe if they get
> pissed off at a poorly administered program, right? Well that's just
> not going to happen in this case. And remember, there really isn't
> much in it for me when it comes to repeat business.

To restate, I was not certain whether or not you had repeat customers.

>
>> Often rebates are
>> offered by the manufacturer to help the retailer move the obsolete or
>> over
>> priced product off of the shelves to make way for a more popular, better
>> version of, or less expensive product. It is often that the replacement
>> product trumps the older version and is a better value than the older
>> version even if is not discounted. Basically the manufacturer takes the
>> hit rather than make the retailer suffer the loss associated with an over
>> all reduced price of inventory.
>
> Rebates are also used to gather demographic info. And, sometimes they
> are used to generate mailing lists for junk mail or sales leads for
> telemarketing. None of these conditions apply to my situation.

Agreed, but the word rebate can portray a negative image regardless of
whether yours is or is not a well oiled machine that fulfills the rebate
obligations.


>
> I appreciate the compliment. But, you have to admit that it makes
> your previous admonitions completely unnecessary. If you really
> believe this then why all the fuss with the platitudes? I understand
> and acknowledge the potential for problems. OK? Yes, these would be
> valid concerns if I were thinking of hiring some scum bag company to
> administer a program for one of the reasons you state above. But, you
> know that this just isn't the case.

If you have not guessed by now. ;~) I take customer satisfaction and
service very seriousely. I am a walking talking proponent of this way of
thinking regardless of who I am speaking with. Many people and I am not
saying that you are one of them, simply don't realize or have never realized
the reason for a down turn in business. Every thing can effect your
relationship with a customer, even things that may not be true about your
business relationship with him.

>
>> I think the whole problem with your thread was the mention of the much
>> resented "r" word.
>
> Hmmmm..... OK. Sorry about that. Which "r" word are we talking
> about? "Ret___" or "Reb___"?

rebate ;~) I consider it a bad word to use around a customer.

Thanks once again for the lively discussion.
Good luck with your "customer appreciation rewards program".

Ed Bennett wrote:
> I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
> exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?
>

1. The mail in rebate tells me first that the product is over priced as
the manufacturer is willing to send me the rebate.

2. I have to pay sales tax on the price initially paid.

3. I then have to gather the necessary rebate forms, fill out an
envelope and pay for postage and mail the rebate request in hoping
something doesn't get lost/trashcanned along the way.

4. Somebody at the other end has to process the rebate and send the
check to me.

5. After the usual three to six months time lapse, all the while tying
up my money, I have to waste more time cashing the check (providing I
even get it).

If the item were priced at the point of the original price minus the
rebate to begin with, I would have saved the cost of the extra tax and
postage and a number of people would have save a lot of time and wasted
energy.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
> I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
> exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?
>
> So, the goal here is to provide some sort of benefit to dealers and
> customers at the same time. I want to reward existing dealers with
> more business. I want to attract new dealers by creating some direct
> demand. And, I want to reward customers with some savings on their
> purchase. A "sale" depends on participation of existing dealers.
> They aren't generally very motivated because the retail discount
> doesn't translate to much at their wholesale pricing. And, it does
> nothing to attract new dealers. Besides, it tends to devalue the
> product in the eyes of the customer. If you have an idea which is
> better than the rebate then by all means share!

"Mail in rebates" are _specifically_ designed/used to sucker that part of
the population who are indeed suckers.

I'm not a sucker, I want to know what the selling price is on the BIG tag up
front, not in the fine print; and I want to pay that price and walk out the
door, done deal, and to hell with a "mail in rebate".

In many retail establishments these days you have to read the fine print to
find out that what you see on the big, easily readable price tag is ONLY the
price should you choose to be a sucker and jump through hoops to go through
the "mail in rebate" scam/promotion.

If you can sell if for $100 and make money, the only reason for the "$25
mail in rebate" scam at $125 is to play the odds and the sucker.

This is one of the most despicable practices in modern retailing and, if it
can't be outlawed, it should be shunned by anyone with any sense until it
becomes obvious to those who use the scam that it will no longer work.

Unfortunately, 50% of everyone who walks in the door is, by definition,
below average IQ, and the "mail in rebate" scammers continue to get away
with it.

Personally, I would not knowingly tar myself with that brush were I in the
retail business, but that's just my opinion.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 3, 5:40 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> 1. The mail in rebate tells me first that the product is over priced as
>> the manufacturer is willing to send me the rebate.
>
> Actually, I'm willing to pay you to do some work for me. I want you
> to buy it through a dealer. Ideally, this would be a dealer that I
> haven't made much progress with. It proves to him that there is some
> demand.


Unless I am getting the product and ending up with more money than before I
buy the product I am not being paid by you to do some work for you. I am
simply getting a partial refund.


>> 2. I have to pay sales tax on the price initially paid.
>
> You mean the full retail price, right? Sorry, not much I can do about
> that!


If you have the dealer handle the rebate up front, the sales tax would be on
the sales price less the rebate.


>> 3. I then have to gather the necessary rebate forms, fill out an
>> envelope and pay for postage and mail the rebate request in hoping
>> something doesn't get lost/trashcanned along the way.
>
> The form comes in the box with the Aligner. You don't have to mail it
> in unless you want the money.

Otherwise you pay more than you should be paying.

>
>> 4. Somebody at the other end has to process the rebate and send the
>> check to me.
>
> That would be me.

Regareldss of who is refunding us with a rebate, we have to go to the store,
buy the product, PLUS fill out a form, mail that form, and wait a lot
longer than the date purchased to eventually receive the refunded rebate.

>
>> 5. After the usual three to six months time lapse, all the while tying
>> up my money, I have to waste more time cashing the check (providing I
>> even get it).
>
> If it's worth your while.

If you have not noticed, your end users are trying to tell you that it is
not worth our while.

>
>> If the item were priced at the point of the original price minus the
>> rebate to begin with, I would have saved the cost of the extra tax and
>> postage and a number of people would have save a lot of time and wasted
>> energy.
>
> But if I don't get any value for the rebate then it's not worth my
> while either. It's not about giving away money. If I were just
> looking for a way to discount the products then I wouldn't need to
> involve dealers.

Actually Ed, you stated quite the contrary in the beginning of the thread
with your opening sentence,

Every year I post a special offer here on rec.woodworking to show my
appreciation for all your help and support. This year is no
different.

Now you are claiming no value from the rebate, I thought it was all about
appreciation. ;~)

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

> TS-Aligner Fall 2007 10% Mail-in Rebate Offer!

< fwiw soap box>

Ed, you're a good guy with a great product, but I gotta tell you, I've
personally reached the point where I see "mail in rebate" and I immediately
run the other way.

No way in hell I will ever buy _anything_ using that method of promotion.

< /fwiw soap box>

Sorry ... It ain't your fault, but you don't often get the opportunity to
tell it to the horse's mouth. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

ROY! wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:56:55 -0700, Ed Bennett <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> My 2 cents worth is to offer the purchaser, proportionate to the
> amount spent on your items, a coupon code that will give him a
> 'dollars off' amount applied to his next purchase with the dealer. So
> if I spend $200. on a Bennett product at Homer's Tool Outlet, Homer
> will give me $20 off my next purchase from him and so on up and down
> the price range of your products.
> ROY!

Homer would probably be more receptive to 20 - $1.00 coupons redeemable
one at a time on each purchase of $100.00 or more. ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Yep, the instant rebate. It requires the dealer to do something. For
> high volume products which have good demand from a manufacturer that
> they cannot live without this works. But, it doesn't work for my
> products or my purposes.


Well Ed, you are getting answers from your target audience. You need to
please us, not the dealer. The dealer is in a business relationship with
you. The customer does not want to be in that relationship. The customer
is not profiting from your product, the dealer is. You may need to do more
homework to determine how to get the dealer more interested in selling your
product. Asking the dealer to handle rebates is less work than asking each
and every customer to handle his own rebate. By-pass the dealer if he does
not want to cooperate.

Maxwell Lol wrote:
>
> ... instead of sending them to a PO Box in Young America, Minnesota

I've never been wronged by the MN rebate center, but they are
SLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

In the other hand, Staples does a great job via the online rebate
system, and I still think the MN company issues the check.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It just doesn't fit my situation. I really wouldn't expect a dealer -
> who doesn't know anything about me or my products - to go out of their
> way to administer the "instant rebate" thing for me.

Whoa, wait a minute, how is it that your dealer does not know a thing about
you? Use your head, offer a 12% rebate to the dealer and let him discount
the product 10% to the customer. If you are billing him, let him use the
12% rebate forms work to debit his bill or to immediately suppliment his
payment.


>I would be embarrassed to even suggest it.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

BillinDetroit <[email protected]> wrote in news:13duttf5c3fiv69
@corp.supernews.com:

<snip>
> Me ... I'm still kinda torqued that neither Home Depot nor Woodcraft had
> ball-shaped cutters for my Chiwanese Dremel. (avoid the cheap, red
> plastic 'flex tool grinders' at ACO ... IMO they have lousy bearings).
>
>
>
> BTW I'm looking for a quick way to hog wood out of spoon bowls.
>
> Bill

The local Do It Best hardware store had ball tip grinders for Dremel. I
happened to buy some yesterday for a bowl texturing project I want to do.
Otherwise, I'd likely not have known.

Back to whacking the rebate idea down...

Patriarch

"Stephen Bigelow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I learned my lesson with CompUSA -- lots of crap free after rebate, so I
> bought a bunch, even though I didn't have a real need. Spent $150, got
> maybe $30 back, and had $120 worth of crap that I couldn't even dump on
> eBay, because so many other people had the same idea. No more rebates
> for me.

You made a bad business decision. You got your rebate, you got your free
stuff, you got exactly what the seller intended. You have no complaint
against the manufacturer or the seller. What you did not get was the
opportunity to make a quick buck. Can't blame the rebate program for that.

Ed -- Reading more of the thread it seems the word "rebate" bothers lots of
us.

Why not call it a "Cash Thank-You for Buying from a Dealer"? ;-)

-- Mark

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message

> How is it that companies like Best Buy can offer competitive pricing to
Circuit
> City while at the same time avoiding the ubiquitous rebates that CC offer?
I
> don't know how they do it but I do know that they do it all the time.

Also why I will not buy most electronic items, like printers, from CC. If
the "mail in rebate" is a good thing for the customer, fine ... let the
retailer pass on immediate savings to the customer, and send in the rebate
themselves.

I would be willing to bet that's what you're seeing in many instances at BB
(although still not my favorite retailer for electronic goods).

Even with shipping, I often get a better deal online ... Web 2.0, doncha
know! :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message

> Maybe you can get swingman (or another creative type wrecker) to write you
a
> song.
>
> You can call it The Overqualifiation Blues.

Too late, SWMBO already wrote it, for me ... it's has as the hook: "Where
Did You Sleep Last Night??".

(not what you think ... she was referring to the doghouse).

:)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sep 3, 5:40 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. The mail in rebate tells me first that the product is over priced as
>>> the manufacturer is willing to send me the rebate.
>>
>> Actually, I'm willing to pay you to do some work for me. I want you
>> to buy it through a dealer. Ideally, this would be a dealer that I
>> haven't made much progress with. It proves to him that there is some
>> demand.
>
>
> Unless I am getting the product and ending up with more money than before
> I buy the product I am not being paid by you to do some work for you. I
> am simply getting a partial refund.
>

Well, that's not really true Leon. You are indeed getting paid by Ed if he
sends you back some money, having been told by him why he's doing the rebate
program. The difference in what you suggest and what Ed's doing is the
amount of the pay. You are right of course, that you pay is in the form of
a refund, but it's cash all the same.


>
> Otherwise you pay more than you should be paying.
>

Or... you pay what you should be paying instead of taking advantage of a
deal which is driven by the need of the manufacturer. Ed is suffering from
a need in his distribution chain and is willing to extend a benefit to the
end user in order to bolster up that end of his business. There is a big
difference between paying more than you should and getting a deal. I've
never used Ed's alignment tool and I likely never will, but I have never
heard anyone say it was not worth what they paid for it. In fact, the
roaring feedback from those who have used them is that they were indeed
worth every cent they paid.

>>
>>> 4. Somebody at the other end has to process the rebate and send the
>>> check to me.
>>
>> That would be me.
>
> Regareldss of who is refunding us with a rebate, we have to go to the
> store, buy the product, PLUS fill out a form, mail that form, and wait a
> lot longer than the date purchased to eventually receive the refunded
> rebate.
>

Yeah, but come on Leon - you're making it sound like you're doing a lot of
work here. Hell - anyone who is interested was going to go to the store
anyway. Filling out rebate forms - even the most painful ones (Cingular
telephone rebates come to mind), really takes about one minute. Certainly
no amount of effort for any of us.


>
> If you have not noticed, your end users are trying to tell you that it is
> not worth our while.
>

This is the one point that I've observed watching this thread unfold. Just
for the record, I don't mind rebate forms too much. I do think the
principle behind rebates usually borders on unethical - it's all about the
gamble that most people won't complete them, so the manufacturer never
incurs the cost, but does gain the bump in sales that the rebate temptation
brings. But - that's just the way it is. I generally send mine in and I
grumble when a month after I send my in, I get a notice from <Cingular> that
my rebate will be processed within 10 weeks. 10 freakin' weeks!

But that's not what Ed is offering. He's offering a quick turn around. A
lot of good suggestions have come up about using different techniques and
practices than rebates. Most of these Ed has demonstrated present a
difficulty to his business. He has no control over his distribution and his
retail arms. They do present problems for manufacturers and more so for
smaller ones like Ed. He's trying to leverage the one direct way that he
thinks a manufacturer can offer something to the end user that can have the
effect of driving other areas of his business. I'm not sure the rebate will
work as Ed plans, but I'm also not trying to re-write his business plan with
this reply. What really struck me in this thread was the number of replies
that talked about how much extra work rebates would be, how taxing they
were, etc. My lifelong experience is that most people do not look at
rebates this way. Rebates are indeed an attraction to most consumers.
But - this is a niche group of people. Woodworkers are grumbly, stodgy old
farts with one sided perspectives of the world. God made us that way, so
it's the way it should be. Nothing is ever good enough for woodworkers
unless they did it, or unless it's really, really old.

Hey Ed - I just stumbled on it! A real eureka moment! Print your rebate
forms in black and white with pictures of old table saws on the forms.
Really old table saws. Throw a couple of pictures of hand planes and buck
saws in the background. Get that nostalgia thing working. Throw in some
text about prices from yesterday... Maybe even make it look like the rebate
form was printed 60 years ago. Then... when a woodworker - and I mean a
real woodworker like us here at the wreck, stumbles across it in the store,
they will think they found a treasure from the past. Of couse since it's
"60" years old, it has to be good - right? Oh yeah - dust - ship the
product with a good stout coating of dust inside and outside the box. The
best is yet to come Ed... Imagine the press you get when one of them (us)
posts a thread in the group heralding this great deal they stumbled on where
this small, customer oriented manufacturer honored a rebate from 60 years
ago, and refunded half their money. Surely the refund was more than what
the product sold for 60 years ago. But - this noble vendor did the
honorable thing...


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
Ed Bennett <[email protected]> wrote:
>I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
>exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?
Ed,

I believe you've gotten a few replies as to the perceived problems. You
also have the real problems: misplaced the receipt (probably #1
problem), tossed the box (and thus proof of purchase), set the thing
aside to fill out later, and missed the deadline.

I'm with the majority of the folks who responded; if I'm going to buy
it, I'm going to buy it and realize that I have maybe a 25% chance of
getting the rebate.

I learned my lesson with CompUSA -- lots of crap free after rebate, so I
bought a bunch, even though I didn't have a real need. Spent $150, got
maybe $30 back, and had $120 worth of crap that I couldn't even dump on
eBay, because so many other people had the same idea. No more rebates
for me.

How about compromise? Do an online rebate. Let people scan in the
receipt and email it to you or upload it to a web site? Yeah, you might
lose a little with the dishonest people, but chalk that up to a
marketing cost and you'll do fine. Keep the mail-in for the people that
can't figure out a computer.

Costco offers rebates, and I *will* go after those, because the process
is so quick and easy online. (Technically, my wife fills them out, so
they are *very* easy to do, but I believe you can even get an instant
credit back on your AmEx Costco card.)

Regards,
-Steve in Banks, OR
http://woodworking.bigelowsite.com

In article <[email protected]>,
Edwin Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Stephen Bigelow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I learned my lesson with CompUSA -- lots of crap free after rebate, so I
>> bought a bunch, even though I didn't have a real need. Spent $150, got
>> maybe $30 back, and had $120 worth of crap that I couldn't even dump on
>
> You made a bad business decision. You got your rebate, you got your free
>stuff, you got exactly what the seller intended. You have no complaint
>against the manufacturer or the seller. What you did not get was the
>opportunity to make a quick buck. Can't blame the rebate program for that.

No, the intent wasn't to dump on eBay, the intent was to truly get them
"free after rebate". The thought of dumping on eBay came after I
realized I got screwed by the rebate company (and hence CompUSA for
choosing the rebate company) and the thought of recouping some of my costs.
This was close to 10 years ago now, but even back
then, I truly didn't need 150 blank 3.5" floppies for $50. $50 minus a
$50 mail-in rebate sounded like a deal. Turns out the 25 pack for $5
would've been a better deal, seeing as how I never received my $50
rebate. At that point in my life, I was making 1/10th of what I make
now, and losing that $120 hit hard. (Anybody need any floppies? Still
got two boxes of 50, unopened. :)

Ya missed my point, though, in that rebates just tend to leave a bad
taste in my mouth. I'll still buy something with a rebate, but the
value of the rebate doesn't in any way factor into whether or not I'll
buy the product. Caveat: if the rebate is greater than about 25% of the
cost, I'll shy away.

Bringing this back to the topic, the 10% rebate on the TS Aligner
wouldn't make me run out and get one. If I had been planning on buying
one sometime, it might make me go out and get one during the rebate
period. Having been a lurker here since 1996, I was always under the
impression that if I really wanted one, I could buy directly from Ed.

Knowing that I could now convince a dealer to sell me one, honestly, I'd
still try to buy directly from Ed first, rebate or not.

<lurk mode on>

--
Regards,
-Steve in Banks, OR
http://woodworking.bigelowsite.com

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I think you're just missing the big picture here Leon. Kind of
> reminds me of the guy who said: "It's easy to make money in the stock
> market - just buy low and sell high."


Well really the big picture is to make money while pleasing the customer.
I have been successful with that most of my career. Long term Successful
Marketing is always about gaining customer trust, repeat business, and
providing an easy buying experience. Nothing worth doing is always easy.
We are just telling you that the approach of offering a rebate is one that
is generally despised by your target audience. It's your business, what
you make of it is up to you. You want valuable information, process what we
have been telling you. Your customers are telling what they don't like,
don't argue with them.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> "Mail in rebates" are _specifically_ designed/used to sucker that part of
> the population who are indeed suckers.
>
> I'm not a sucker, I want to know what the selling price is on the BIG tag
> up
> front, not in the fine print; and I want to pay that price and walk out
> the
> door, done deal, and to hell with a "mail in rebate".

The seller is also banking on a lot of customers buying the product because
it is such a great deal with the rebate, but then they forget, lose the
paperwork and no money is ever sent. Good deal for the manufacturer.

I've bought products with rebates, but not because of them. If it is only a
buck or two, I don't bother with it. Staples has a good program where you
can send the info on line. I've done that with success a couple of times.

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:56:55 -0700, Ed Bennett <[email protected]>
wrote:

My 2 cents worth is to offer the purchaser, proportionate to the
amount spent on your items, a coupon code that will give him a
'dollars off' amount applied to his next purchase with the dealer. So
if I spend $200. on a Bennett product at Homer's Tool Outlet, Homer
will give me $20 off my next purchase from him and so on up and down
the price range of your products.
ROY!

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:28:05 -0700, Ed Bennett <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
>exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?

I think one difference between what you're doing and the typical
rebates is it sounds like you are handling the rebates yourself -
though I don't see a link to the actual rebate form in your link.
Usually rebates on stuff bought at retail use a fullfillment center,
whose sole job is to look for any reason to deny the rebate. I've
heard they actually get rated by the percentage of rebates they
reject, so there is tremendous pressure on them to find, or make up,
any reason to deny.

I've never ever personally not received a rebate, though I haven't
really done that many. I don't see what's so difficult about reading
instructions and sending the thing in within a month. I did recently
send in some pretty large rebates on Pentax camera stuff. On the
forum I read people used to glow about the handling of their rebates.
Then they changed fullfillment centers and I've heard nothing but
complaints since. For a company that has had perpetual rebates for a
very long time (every few months the rebates end and they announce a
new set of pretty much exactly the same rebates) it's just very bad to
be having bad word of mouth. And it makes you wonder if the word of
mouth was good about your rebates will be handled well, why did they
change centers?

So if I were you, I'd make it clear I'm personally making sure the
rebates are handled properly. And I would have the rebate form up on
my website as a pdf. I would make sure I have the absolute minimum of
stuff the customer has to fill out and fine print on the form. It's
of course necessary to have reasonable limitations, but go through the
rebates looking for reasons to give the money not reasons to deny it.


-Leuf

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lee Michaels" wrote in message
>
>> Maybe you can get swingman (or another creative type wrecker) to write
>> you
> a
>> song.
>>
>> You can call it The Overqualifiation Blues.
>
> Too late, SWMBO already wrote it, for me ... it's has as the hook: "Where
> Did You Sleep Last Night??".
>
> (not what you think ... she was referring to the doghouse).
>
> :)


I thought so! The line that says something about a Handsome man from
Louisiana brought you to mine, although I have never really felt compelled
to evaluated your handsomeness. ;~)



>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/8/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>

Ed Bennett wrote:
>> There are better ways to promote a product.


How is it that companies like Best Buy can offer competitive pricing to Circuit
City while at the same time avoiding the ubiquitous rebates that CC offer? I
don't know how they do it but I do know that they do it all the time.

To respond to your reply to the other poster, yes, the negativity associated
with rebates is directly related to poorly administered programs. They make you
hop through the hoops... if you forget to include one little requirement you're
out of the running... there are unreasonable restrictions. "One to a
household"? What the hell difference does it matter how many households are
involved? Isn't the whole idea to sell MORE items? Or would you rather it
remain "one to a customer"?

But let's say you jump through the hoops, cross all the t's and dot all the i's.
Then they just claim they never received it. Please remail it. However, since
the original proof of purchase was in the first envelope and the company won't
accept copies, that become a joke. However, the joke's on the original company
as I no longer buy their products. They only get one chance to rape me.

You had to ask these questions? You've never tried to get a rebate yourself?
You must lead a sheltered existence. I don't know anybody who hasn't been
screwed by a rebate offer.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Leon, your comments are always very entertaining. So, what
> exactly did you do in your career (given all the time you spend on the
> wreck, I just assume you are retired)? It would seem like you want us
> to believe that you were the owner of a business that invented new
> products and introduced them with very successful marketing
> campaigns. Please do tell us all about your experience. In addition,
> I wouldn't mind your answers on a few questions. These are topics
> that you raised in your reply. Perhaps you could reach down into the
> depths of your knowledge and expertise to elaborate on each one with a
> bit more detail.

You asked, At age 17 I began my working life doing so part time in an
automotive retail/tire store, Ameron Automotive Centers, a division of Kelly
Springfield/Goodyear, while finishing high school and attending college. At
age 21 I was awarded the management position of one of the stores in Houston
with the same company. My store was one of 300 stores through out the
country. At age 22 and for more pay I was hired by BF Goodrich as an
assistant manager. At age 23 I was hired to join a group to open a new
Oldsmobile dealership in Houston. I was hired to start up and run the Parts
Department. At age 28 I was promoted to Service Sales Manager in the same
company. At age 31 I was promoted to a newly formed position as Parts
Director over the Oldsmobile and newly acquired Isuzu franchise. At age 33
I was hired to be the GM of an AC/Delco wholesale distributor. At age 40 I
retired from that business and the automotive profession and no longer have
to work. The last job offered and paid excellent retirement benefits and
gave me a first hand education as to what true customer service is all
about, and how it can make or break a company. Through the direct actions
of the two owners, this small company that made the owners millionaires and
afforded me the opportunity to retire at 40, closed its doors after being in
business for 25 years, 6 years after I left. The company which had no debt
was not sold. While I was there the company enjoyed its best sales with
annual sales reaching $3.4 million. In addition to the owners and I, we had
6 employees. Two years later I started my own small furniture design and
construction business to keep me busy. I have been doing this for the past
10 years. Lastly, as of Wednesday of last week I cordially withdrew my
name from an offer to open and manage a well known nationally recognized
wood working supply store. Having sent my resume in to inquire about a
possible part time job to add variety to my week I went to the interview
only to find out that I was being strongly considered for the store manager
position. I did not want to give up my present business for a FULL time
job.

>
> Do you think that my customers are happy or unhappy with my products
> and service?

I know that they are happy per comments by many here on this news group.

>
> Do you think that I have a high or low level of customer trust and
> loyalty?

I would say for the customers that you have sold to that you have a high
level of both.

>
> You know my product line, how much repeat business do you think I
> should expect?

I am "familiar" with your product line. Not knowing the full range of your
line I could not guess as to whether you have repeat business.

>
> Based on what you know of my business and products, do you believe
> that I'm always looking for easy solutions?

Again, only being familiar with your products I can only respond with a
reasonable answer. Any business person should look for the easiest
solutions however the customer should always be the first consideration when
making changes to a company policy or the way it interacts with its
customers. Sometimes a simple solution for you may affect your bottom line
negatively if the customer gets less than what he feels is fair. There is a
fine line between what is considered by you as an acceptable loss of
customers and what is not acceptable.

>
> Does it seem to you like I'm disinterested, inattentive, or
> argumentative to what people are saying in this thread?

No, No, and Yes, at times.

Ed, because you are mostly seen here sporadically and because you are
often mentioning your product here on this group I get the impression that
you come here more to sell vs. be a regular active participant to discuss
IYHO the best way to finish a product, where to get the best deals on
hardware, and so on. Because you do offer sound advice even though it is
often centered around your products this is fine with me. Same goes for
Steve Knight. We each use this group in a way that each of us feels is
best for us as individuals. Perhaps not as apparent I too have benefited
from receiving repeat jobs/customers through this news group. Anyway, it
has always been my experience that customer satisfaction is the ultimate
goal. With customer satisfaction and positive interaction with "yet to be
customers", comes new customers and money. I know that profits are
important however sales come first. With out sales, there are no profits.
With increased sales come more opportunities to generate larger gross
profits margins.
IMHO common mail in rebates do not generate enough increase in sales to
offset a possible loss of long term customer loyalty. Often rebates are
offered by the manufacturer to help the retailer move the obsolete or over
priced product off of the shelves to make way for a more popular, better
version of, or less expensive product. It is often that the replacement
product trumps the older version and is a better value than the older
version even if is not discounted. Basically the manufacturer takes the
hit rather than make the retailer suffer the loss associated with an over
all reduced price of inventory. Mail in rebates like product coupons are
seldom paid out because of the strict nonsense required to obtain the
refund. Many customers forget or give up while waiting for the refund.
Having said that, I don't for a moment believe that your intent is anything
other than to do only the honorable thing for your customers. You seem a
bit too "hands on" to risk dissatisfaction from you customers and I commend
you for this. This country needs more businessmen like you and business to
be run like yours to rebuild its reputation and faith with it's customers.
I think the whole problem with your thread was the mention of the much
resented "r" word.










>
> On Sep 3, 10:54 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well really the big picture is to make money while pleasing the
>> customer.
>> I have been successful with that most of my career. Long term
>> Successful
>> Marketing is always about gaining customer trust, repeat business, and
>> providing an easy buying experience. Nothing worth doing is always
>> easy.
>> We are just telling you that the approach of offering a rebate is one
>> that
>> is generally despised by your target audience. It's your business, what
>> you make of it is up to you. You want valuable information, process what
>> we
>> have been telling you. Your customers are telling what they don't like,
>> don't argue with them.
>
>

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

> that you mention are insurmountable. I'm not looking for excuses to
> avoid paying people. I'm looking to incent people to buy my products
> through dealers.

Ed,

Be assured that no offense was intended, or to insinuate that you were doing
any "scamming" yourself.

That notwithstanding, the connotation of the phrase "mail-in rebate" does
seem to incite strong opinions/feelings in more than one of us. <g>

Anyway, good luck, understand your predicament, hope lots of folks take you
up on your "dealer incentive" program, and look forward to using your
product.

:)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Ed Bennett <[email protected]> wrote:
> I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. Can you elaborate a little? What
> exactly is the problem with a mail-in rebate?

#1) If I buy an item for cash, I sure as hell don't want to share my
name and address with a company and get dumped on their junk mail list
and then have that info sold off to receive yet more crap in the mail.

#2) Because we all know the way these rebates really work is that
vendor X advertises product Y via some type of printed medium at
price Z in a nice large font. In a smaller font the real price of
Z1 is listed for the item which shows how much it costs *without*
the rebate. Vendor X, while not exactly pulling the wool over
anyone's eyes, hopes the prospective consumer is fixated on the
price Z and that will be the tipping point for the customer to
actually want to buy product Y. Vendor X then gets to advertise
product Y at price Z, while knowing full well that most consumers
are not going to bother trying to get their rebate once they realize
what all is involved in trying to actually get it. Thus vendor X
gets to have a "sale", where everything is actually sold at the
regular retail price, and only have to provide the actual discount
to a small percentage of people that care to jump through all the
hoops and wait the ridiculous amount of time required before they
actually get their rebate--if at all.

In short, while you may be a very respectible business person offering
a good product, offering rebates screams "weasel" to me. So if you
want to have a sale and offer a discount--just do it. Forget the
rebate crap.

--

If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:02:02 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

>Ed Bennett wrote:
>>> There are better ways to promote a product.
>
>
>How is it that companies like Best Buy can offer competitive pricing to Circuit
>City while at the same time avoiding the ubiquitous rebates that CC offer? I
>don't know how they do it but I do know that they do it all the time.
>
>To respond to your reply to the other poster, yes, the negativity associated
>with rebates is directly related to poorly administered programs. They make you
>hop through the hoops... if you forget to include one little requirement you're
>out of the running... there are unreasonable restrictions. "One to a
>household"? What the hell difference does it matter how many households are
>involved? Isn't the whole idea to sell MORE items? Or would you rather it
>remain "one to a customer"?
>
>But let's say you jump through the hoops, cross all the t's and dot all the i's.
>Then they just claim they never received it. Please remail it. However, since
>the original proof of purchase was in the first envelope and the company won't
>accept copies, that become a joke. However, the joke's on the original company
>as I no longer buy their products. They only get one chance to rape me.
>
>You had to ask these questions? You've never tried to get a rebate yourself?
>You must lead a sheltered existence. I don't know anybody who hasn't been
>screwed by a rebate offer.

They invest the rebate money on the spot market and the earned
interest makes up fot the discount to you. Plus any they can avoid
paying out is gravey in their pocket.
Made it simple for myself...I don't shop Circuit City ever, rarely
Office Depot. If I have to buy I pay full price over a rebate or wait
til there is an instant rebate somewhere else.
I have always been a fan of HP equipment until they bought Compac.
Having been royaly screwed by Compac on a lap top problem they knew
about in advance now HP is off my list! (helped my attitude some when
HP lost their ass in than purchase).
The old addage screw me once good for you screw me twice bad for me!

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
>> You could simply request the copy of the invoice from the distributor or
>> reseller and give him back the 10% of the sale price or credit his
> account.
>> The customer comes out ahead and really and truly you are here to serve
> the
>> customer, not the other way around.
>
> There, Ed, is your answer on how to approach your "sale" in a manner that
> does not make the thoughtful, informed buyer feel like he is being
> scammed.
>

From an old marketing man's perspective;

Almost everybody has been screwed by a rebate at one time or another.

Therefore all rebates are considered scams.

Therefore all stores/businesses who offer them are considered crooks.

And if you should offer a rebate, you will be lumped into the afore
mentioned crook catagory.

Don't get angry with me Ed. The number one problem I had with marketing
clients was their howls of protest that they were not the bad guys. Even
though their business practices were exactly like the bad guys.

Remember, from a marketing perspective, perception is everything. For many
(most?) folks, rebate means there is some kinda lie'n and cheatin' goin' on
here.